Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials S1E6 - The Daemon Cages

Episode Date: December 13, 2019

There is no garden in the Fields of Evil. Lyra must escape Bolvangar with all the other children and stop the horrors happening here. Chloe tastes sweet, sweet victory.  Mentioned in the episode: Chloe's latest essay on Tony Makarios  ----  Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro: Waltz Of The Skeleton Keys by WombatNoisesAudio | https://soundcloud.com/user-734462061

🎵 Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Watches, the His Dark Materials television show, Season 1, Episode 6, The Demon Cages. I am one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit or as Arithmetric over on Twitter. And I am another one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me from the internet as LiesInArbor on Twitter, Tumblr, or from my blog,

LiesInArborGold.com, where I've recently posted a new piece. She's not being sarcastic. She actually recently posted a new piece about historic materials. And sarcastic. She actually recently posted a new piece about His Dark Materials. And I was like, see, Chloe, you do update this. I did. I talked further about Tony Macarius

and his presence that was missing in season one, episode five of His Dark Materials. I did this while I was drinking, apparently. And I was so inspired because I watched the episode and I had to drink wine afterwards because I was sad. And I guess I pumped this puppy out. So we talked a little bit further about William Blake. We talk about Lowe's excellent essay that we can't stop name dropping. we talk about Billy Costa's transition into

Tony Macarius's role and the de-escalation of emotion that came or did not come with it. So the emphasis of the scholar's coin, for example. Lots missing that I know we didn't get to go fully into on our cast, so I went a little

further, apparently. Check it out. We'll link it below in the description. I did really moreover just want to brag that yes i finally fucking published something on my blog the spells over baby that dry spells over it is nice and damp um you know what so that was my big moment to shine today eliana what have you done today nothing i've done nothing i you know what but you know what i did today i came up with an informal title for this episode it's called bull bangers and mash because uh one of the terms one of the fun terms that the

english have for their breakfast is bangers and mash so that's what i have for everyone today part of me is really disappointed in you and wants to fire you like i do when you tell a bad pun but i say that i also think the other part of me really loves bangers and mash. So thank you for this title. Very mixed feelings. Also, another thing that I came up with was to remind everyone that, as you may know, if you've been following our show coverage, this is a mostly all spoilers podcast. We are covering information from at the very least all three of the His Dark Materials novels. from at the very least all three of the His Dark Materials novels.

And every now and then, a sprinkling of the Book of Dust. Just a slight dusting. Am I the dust fairy? You might be. You're a little dust bunny. Aw, that's strange. Oh. We got this email from our good friend graham yeah graham said pullman has a very little joke in the series lyra's oxford has oxford university our oxford also has oxford brooks

university you could read all about it on the internet with a link that he gave us i didn't know what else to say it is separate from oxford university i would not be surprised if pullman who's attached to the city teases us with references across worlds which lyra could not possibly know people who cannot get into oxford but would like to can find it easier to get into brooks and later claim with truth they have a degree from oxford a subterfuge not dissimilar to lyra's false name lizzie brooks so i thought that this was a really great easter egg that i personally did not know as an american yes a yank yeah from being across the pond stop Across the pond.

Stop. I've been watching a lot of Glow Up, the UK makeup competition on Netflix. It's kind of trash, but also like they had Nikki Tutorials, the makeup artist from YouTube, on one of the episodes as like the challenge thing. Yeah, she was the challenge on one of the episodes, but I've just been watching. I work with a couple of people from across the pond as Eliana would, would call it. And every time I sit there watching this show and there's a new phrase I learned,

I'm like, Ooh, I got to say that. I got to tell that one to my friend. Yeah. I mean, same, same.

And I'm not learning much from the show. There's not a lot of good slang in the show yeah that's true um we'll come back to it in a bit i recently finished watching season two fleabag and you know what i realized today jack thorne executive producer of historic materials was also a writer on skins and i loved seasons one and two skins three and four were okay i never actually ended up watching five and six so yeah i never watched it and i really need to really need to yeah it was now you have two skins crossovers you're right it's a little different this time around but you're right i mean yeah in a way yeah i uh tweeted at philip pullman today oh again did he ever respond to Mortal Kombat

no so today I tweeted at him about the most important thing and I'm gonna bring it up up top so is John Fah and Maggie Costa is it canon or not because I can't go on living with these weird intimate

moments and also were they trying to portray it through the color of billy costa's skin like is this really what we're supposed to understand from this like and is it canon is pullman saying john fa and maggie were together in the books i'm just he's executive in writing on this so you're asking if they were Fa King? Because John Fa. I'm actually about to get fired and we haven't even gotten into the meat of the episode.

Well, this has been our last episode. I can't believe you just said that to me. You should tweet it on our account. I should. Speaking of tweeting on our account i should i should speaking of tweeting on our accounts and official accounts i also tweeted so the u.s version of the his dark materials official account hbo1 um at demons and dust quote tweeted someone who shared the gif

of roger yelling she's special and then they said in the quote tweet about roger he's special and i'm just hurt why would they do this to me dude it's gonna suck like really badly especially after this episode why would they do that they're cruel all the roger scenes are gems in this episode that speech was incredible this episode he did a great job uh the the younger actors i think are really showing it out yeah i think yeah he's a phenomenal actor the other kids were great too to be honest yeah the episode was definitely shot well i mean there's some negatives i think eliana feels about it there's some negatives i feel about it there's a lot of positives i personally feel i think it was a beautiful episode i don't uh i don't discredit

your opinions on a few things which we will talk about and we will fight it will be mortal combat you know they're gonna apparently according to trailers they're gonna be naked wrestling that's what i said yeah i know but i was like maybe they'll like put armor on them later or something no it's gonna be lewd yeah they are gonna be nude nude and lewd it's weirdly weird and i'm guessing okay we just talked about off the air how we need to stop being so deep because apparently it's not the books aren't that they're a little deep but not super you know no one's ever no writers ever like meaning to be that deep they're're writing a story and then people draw it. So Jackthorn isn't either, is what I'm learning. So I was like,

no armor, their souls are off, it's just bears. Bearing. They're bear bears. Oh, two bear bears. So last time on His Dark Materials. Kai says, nerd birb voiceover talking of the prophecy. So this nerd burb, voiceover, talking

of the prophecy. So this is that recap, you know, that thing that happens at the beginning of the episodes? Yes. Then you have Serafina reuniting and then immediately parting with Farger Coram. We have Will. Will! That's all I need to say. Will! Boreal creeps on Elaine.

Lyra goes to the fishing village with Yorick and she also finds billy costa john perry oh my god discussions discussions he is spoken about in the first season of this show can't believe it everyone um billy, Billy Costa dies, if you'll all remember. They figure out what the Gobblers seek to do. If you can remove someone's soul, you can do anything.

They have that whole little exchange of we have to fight, we have to kill. And then we reach Bullvanger. And that's where we are now. Welcome to Bullvanger. And that's where we are now. Welcome to Bullvanger. And MASH. And MASH. Get out. It's too soon.

You should have just sat there and ate your bangers and MASH. I should have. So we open the episode with Lyra being paraded through the snooey outdoor hallways of Bullvanger, over to the cafeteria. She makes meaningful eye contact with Roger, but also makes meaningful eye contact with everyone else but also makes meaningful eye contact with everyone else in the room because they are all staring at her intently as she enters as though

this is an awkward teen movie and she doesn't know where to sit in the cafeteria and maybe it's because she walks to sit alone at the table i don't know though pan ends up secretly talking to salcilia and pretending not to actually see each other. Someone nicely decides to sit at Lyra's loser table. It's Bridget McGinn. But not for long, she then gets called up to the principal's office. It's not good. Yeah.

Yikes. Couple feelings about this scene. I thought it was a really strong open scene. Roger has a haircut. And as we learn later, haircuts aren't really good symbols in this episode but i'm guessing it was to examine his head and dust and not because he was getting scruffy we'll talk about it later when we get to the left behind children the painting is there from the books well kind of it's different looking but it was there. In the books, there's a passage.

She followed Sister Clara to the canteen, where a dozen round white tables were covered in crumbs into the sticky rings where drinks had been carelessly put down. Dirty plates and cutlery were stacked on a steel trolley. There were no windows, so to give an illusion of light and space, one wall was covered in a huge photogram showing a tropical beach with bright blue sky and white sand and coconut palms it's a nod i'll take a nod i will take a nod any day i like that they're very intent on including this detail in every sort of live action version of this they had it in the movie too oh yeah they did yeah they're like look at the thing and is that what i said the thing and yeah i mean every time i think it's an interesting nod this like sort of ironic little piece of paradise in hell especially with what is said to lyra later by Sister Clara, that you're in the best place you can be.

Yeah. She's still, I just like the way she enunciates things still. Yeah. I love the attention to demon detail with names so far. Like they're naming them. Salcilia is named in the show. Yeah.

That's awesome. It's a small thing to be grateful for, but I feel like we should always be grateful for small things. That's awesome. It's a small thing to be grateful for, but I feel like we should always be grateful for small things. That's true. And Lyra seeing Roger alive again. It was beautiful. The way that she just has her slow motion

and her mouth slightly open. Great. Then we have Bridget, whose name I misspelled here. Bridget is escorted down a haunting metal hallway by Sister Clara, and the doctor whose fox demon here, Bridget is escorted down a haunting metal hallway by Sister Clara, and the Doctor, whose fox demon looks at Bridget's, currently rabbit demon, quite hungrily, in my opinion. The door closes behind the Doctor and Bridget,

and Sister Clara stands creepily in the hallway with a dead smile. Then as the lights go out, her smile fades. The Doctor then exits the room and literally snaps, it's pretty fucking rude at clara who follows her yeah dr cooper's demon is a fox that is just the whole like sly responsive stealthy thing not to go all animal quarter on you guys but it was definitely preying on her little rabbit demon just shivers there was a fox demon, though, amongst Egyptians. I saw up there on the

cliff. So, hashtag not all foxes. Not all, not all, but this one definitely. Oh, yeah. For sure. Oh, yeah. I am bummed that Bridget didn't really do her book role, but at least she was name-dropped. At least they gave it the name. They gave her a role. She was cute.

Very adorable. Better than what her counterpart got gave it the name. They gave her a role. She was cute. Very adorable. Better than what her counterpart got, right? Bridget had more of a role than Tony Macarios. Bridget had representation. Yeah. Tony Macarios did not. But Bridget in the books, if you have not read the books and you're listening to us, I hope you're enjoying all the spoilers.

You know, I think that's a good way to live your life. You're kind of chaotic evil and I like that. But Bridget in the books is, if you don remember tony mccarius's slash billy costa zlyra she hid with tony when they were trying to take him to sever him and then she told everyone what happened to him when she could and spread the word of what they're really doing to children until she's taken in the first book here uh the doctor comes in and asks for Bridget McGinn, and he tells her to finish her drink and come with Sister Clara, and tells everyone else to go along to their classes, and they all pack up their food and leave, and the line is, no one looked at Bridget

McGinn except Lyra, and she saw the blonde girl's face vivid with fear. It does its job as a scene of explaining these kids are watching their friends get picked off one by one with no answer as to what happens. Of course, I'm not mad about that. In fact, I liked the scene. It was spooky and creepy. It flowed really well from the creepiness of Clara in that darkness. It did more than just cold introduce the episode without overdoing it. All of this together, Clara blankly staring while being snapped at. It's just chilling. Yeah.

And I think it was quite nice that they kept the horrors of what's happening in that room away for now. Yeah, agreed. And focused it on Clara. I think that was a really good choice. Yeah, I think that was awesome having that moment right there and just the door. There was another moment in this episode where the door shut that made me just go. There are a couple of good door scenes, including, of course, the one, but we'll get to that later. Also, I realized that as the light flickers, that's another sort of hint as to something we're told about later about the embiro magnetic fields surrounding

the intercision machine and then lyra picking up on that so it just uh it's kind of like all these little nuggets of very condensed world building yeah i think they're doing a great job with it i'll give them yeah they did good visual storytelling for this episode at least then we get the intro every time so good such a banger a bull banger yes um chloe and i just sing this song yeah we're singing it together i do it at home uh as i mentioned last week i dance with a spatula to it sometimes you gotta conduct with a spatula have you done that yet no i haven't done that i just mostly sing and belt it. I highly recommend it. Highly recommend. So, it's school picture day, Eliana.

It is school picture day. Lyra's only been here a minute, and they've already decided she's going to be in the yearbook. Oh my god. In some sort of hybrid doctor checkup school photo session, Lyra turns the tables on the photographers and asks them questions about being dusty, but when things get too hot, she plays it cool. She's like, oh, no, no, no, I wash, so I'm not dusty. She really was

practicing where to push and where to pull here, where to stop and where the line was and how not to cross it, and I thought that was interesting. I like that they're showing that part of her character. She's a very smart smart young woman she's very adaptable she's learning yeah i kind of wondered if that was like a slight double entendre in the when she was blowing up the machine she was telling pan she's like i'm gonna keep pushing one of the buttons till something happens and like

that's what she does you know she just keeps pushing buttons like figuratively when she lies until she gets some sort of indication or answer yeah they've done a really good job of showing though Lyra's increasing ability to lie and I also like this line it might be in the books too I think she asks

can you see dust in these pictures and it becomes a callback to our first time of seeing or hearing dust in those boomerangs taken by Lord Asriel. And by boomerangs, I mean the photograms, but you know, it's more fun when I use Instagram terms, you know? Oh my god. Chloe's like, two seconds from... Blocking you on Instagram. Oh no! That one was actually way more sad to me than being fired i was like

how could she the gram no i'll just fire you don't worry the gram i'm taking your phone away from you i see what you mean there with that callback to azrael and i also like i like that a lot that idea of the photogram like and i wonder if i don't know just being surrounded by that metal it reminds me of like silver nitrate emulsion like it makes me think of that now like just there's so many interesting back and forths of learning what we've learned already in the first couple episodes in that exposition drop and what it has to do with now like that ambaric field that was a great catch something that i find weird is in the books she plays it a lot simpler you know she thinks she has to act dumb and pan tells her lyra act dumb

she's kind of getting too smart for her britches here in a lot of these scenes i get it it's more fun yeah but she does ask some of these questions like and pretends to ask them like kind of dumbly as though she'd like just heard it or whatever. Yeah, and we'll talk about it a bit. But it's not wrong, to be fair. She is a little precocious. I think also with, I don't know, these adults I think are a little different.

They're obviously much less invested in the lives of the children. I don't think they would be able to notice if a child were dumb or not. They only seemed to notice, right, their age. Yeah, that's not what they were interested in. Then the fire alarm goes off and Lyra's ushered out by Sister Clara. There's this line one of the kids in passing says,

it happens whenever someone's taken about the fire alarm. That's interesting. Does that lead to anything or is it just a weird one-off line? And we have to stop doing this to ourselves because then we think that it's going to be something and it isn't. And berates them because the fire alarm is on the same circuit as the rest of the security. And that isn't exactly what happens.

Allegedly, it was fixed. But that is how they blame the escape of the children in the demon cages. That's what I couldn't remember and what I was missing. And we'll talk about that later because I have some disappointing feelings on that. But that might be my disappointment I know you have a couple things that you're like ah underwhelmed but mine was definitely demon cages and that's

something I was confused about like okay okay yeah but yeah I think that's what it's referring to and I don't know if it's just like an easter egg or a callback I think it must be an easter egg there we go I just was like that line really stuck with me and I couldn't know if it's just like an Easter egg or a callback. I think it must be an Easter egg. There we go. I just was like, that line really stuck with me and I couldn't figure it out.

So thank you. Holy crap, you're an angel. So there's also a lot of good showing though, right? You were talking about the visual storytelling in this episode. They depict the other nurses in Bolvanganguard and we don't see them interact much but just the way that they're acting it's very similar to sister clara they're not telling when we see that one nurse uh who is behind the door as sister clara ushers uh lyra the door opens and that woman's right behind the door and she doesn't even fucking blink when the door like opens in her

face i would be like oh okay word this is very rude i was right here chill out everyone but the fact that it doesn't faze her at all shows us that lack of um stimulus and you know we again keep referring back to low jot go mirror and their analyses but also coming back to one of your analyses from our reread of Northern Lights slash The Golden Compass. My read, your reread. You were already rereading it by this time, right? Listen. You were talking about women disproportionately being subject to lobotomies in history.

And I do think it's noteworthy that we're seeing that a lot of these nurses are women. And therefore, they're also adults who have been subject to severing. And I think that's not really because, like, I mean, you could speculate that one of the doctors, Dr. Rendell, has been severed because we never see his demon, but I think that's just an oversight. Because he doesn't show any of those same signs that we see from those who have lost their souls,

that lack of curiosity we see in these nurses, or even the other doctors. There are doctors, doctors it seems in the books who have been severed and though we also see other adults whose souls are taken by specters so that he doesn't react that way and seems to feel guilt it's not that we just don't see his demon just because they didn't feel like depicting it but anyway i think there's something to be said of that connection between what you're saying about lobotomies and that very gendered aspect of who gets severed yeah in dr rendell's privilege that we learn of here you know as a doctor and as a male and it's like like you said it's definitely

an oversight that we don't see his demon it's just the usual it's hiding in his pocket maybe he has an insect and it just doesn't probably like a fucking cockroach it doesn't crawl over his face like the other dude from the magisterium yeah well the other dude needed to be scary this guy needed to be a bitch yeah this guy needed to be mildly like, oh, he almost feels for them. And then being like, wow, you can like really feel for the kids and like still fucking suck. Yeah. Lyra and Roger do some investigating. During roll call, Lyra starts a snowball fight.

Roger reluctantly joins in on to distract the staff since help is on its way. They try to find an exit to escape, but come across something much worse. The demon cages. They find the demons that were once whole with their humans billy costa's cage is of course empty as we know roger feels lightly betrayed that lyra did not tell him billy died roger asks where the children are if the demons are alive i liked the exchange here. Lyra's out there talking about how she doesn't care about sticking out, and he's like, Lyra, you need to chill out so we don't get caught. And

she starts to throw snowballs, and he's like, you never did listen. Oh, Roger. Also, reminds me of Will and Lyra with their approaches, especially in The Subtle Knife. Will gets very mad at lyra because she doesn't assimilate you know and uh try to be unnoticeable it's lyra's always going out out

of her way to use the outlandish attempt instead so i thought this is interesting and it kind of feels like something they're trying with lyra especially in this episode with some of these exchanges yeah i think that calling it back to will and lyra is a good point because she's gonna keep doing it the way she keeps doing it until until the time that it fails and then she's like okay you're right this is not the best tact for everything she took out her alethiometer in a museum yeah and then someone took it and she's like okay well you were right i'm sorry i fucked up everyone was right i can't always do whatever the hell i want it's true my poor daughter yeah i mean that's part of growing up that literally is part of growing up also billy was seven damn also i did like the snowball fight scene i thought that that was

executed quite well um it felt it felt like a moment of youthfulness which is kind of what it was supposed to be you know like the kids doing the thing right this sort of light in the dark uh and innocent saving all yeah and then just to bring it back down to dark bridget's demon hitting its head against the wall of the cage very uh ava unit zero oh my god iconic scene though right scene though, right? Very iconic, but Jesus Christ. Just be a weeb for a moment. These are my roots. You just can't change who you are. My demon is some... I don't know. Your demon is fucking Naruto.

Why would you do that? Why would you say that? My demon is like Pen Pen. Leave it in the cask, you coward. So they find the children the children are in another room heads shaved demonless counting blankly like Billy was when he was found Lyra and Roger slip out trying to sneak back into line

Lyra tells Roger to spread the word to the other kids and leave when the alarm sounds a nurse walks suspiciously behind them Chloe the counting it's the thing! I know! I called it! You did! I don't know how I feel about the connection with it in regards

to Elaine now, but we'll talk about that soon. Controversial opinion, I guess. A lot of people were mad about this edition with the children and I've seen people be like that's ruining the sanctity of the book that wasn't in the book or some shit what this is like it makes sense that the children are there

in my opinion i think this might be a good addition because that many kids in the demon cages like couldn't have disappeared and still been alive and the demons still been alive i think that's kind of something that makes sense of having them somewhere further tested on Pullman might not say it, but to me, it kind of makes sense in the canon. I think it makes sense. I'm not mad. Yeah, I think it makes sense. And Tony Makarios not being there and some of the other children not being there. It's not like that they just set them free because they're like, we don't need this anymore. It was just that they escaped escaped they weren't tending to them well and some of those kids just happened to escape and wander off right like they were like ideally yeah the

test subjects are still here because that's how they think of them i mean they really didn't want these kids to go wander in the woods. Let's be real. Yeah. Yeah. That's all. Like, that to me was kind of seeing some of that discourse maybe go, hmm, really? That's it? That's what you're mad about? I don't know.

Then we have Dr. Cooper and Dr. Rendell, who we know now. It's in the closed captions, which I figured out. And also because I looked it up. Well, I remember it. We don't know. I also looked it up. Do you remember it? We don't know. I also looked it up. I didn't know Dr. Cooper's name. So between the two of us, we got this. Yeah, we got two horrible people that history should forget.

They talk about morality and Mrs. Coulter. Hey, that's what we do. Yeah, that is what we do. Also having a drink. Yeah, they drink. That's what we do. They discuss the work they drink that's what we do they discuss the work they're doing at bullbanger we don't do that no we're we're not awful and uh they discuss how she is on her way i love when mrs coulter is referred to as she it's great like in general i think it's

just so good that you know who she is iconic who is she who is the fucking little pigeon that'd be hilarious if her demon was that pigeon think about it cooper thinks that they need to push their work they're on the edge of discovery in her opinion but dr rendall feels like they're probably not doing the right thing dr cooper is, we're doing what's necessary to free generations from sin. We must succeed. And they have an exchange where he says, where she says, this is just pain we're causing.

But me, yes, that's the point. Yeah. That's terrible and bad. Like, how could that not, the idea that, oh, it's just pain. Like, what? I feel like maybe they are severed from their demons, even though they have them.

They might have elected to it, like Coulter probably did, or Coulter was experimented on, who knows. But Dr. Rendell says, how many more children have to die before we get it right? And she just responds that they're doing what's necessary. Yikes! necessary yikes big yikes i will say it is interesting despite the cross motifs that we get an imagery of the magisterium even throughout the books we don't hear very much about jesus or the crucifixion and its significance within christianity in the books actually we never as far as i know we would never hear the term christ we only hear jesus and it happens like twice through miriam alone who comes from our world not through the magisterium or as people from lyra's world in our episodes for a song of ice and fire which we do a read-through of as many of you may or may not know probably many of you know we talk a lot about the subtleties of sacrifice throughout

the series and the difference between being the willing person right being the one to choose for yourself to sacrifice yourself or whether or not you are removing the agency of another by placing them in the position of being the sacrifice and how that isn't necessarily the same as a true sacrifice it may cause you pain but it's ultimately you are not the one giving up as big of a cost right and that's not their sacrifice exactly but here in saying that the children are acting as just necessary pain that they are dying so that many will be free from sin generations of sin afterwards will be it's a very much a perversion of the core of christianity and the sacrifice of christ upon the cross right within the crucifion, because the idea is that the divine innocence willingly chose to die, though he didn't have to himself, and suffer so that others could

be absolved from sin because of that innocence. But here we have children who, by being children and not being covered in dust, are in that role of innocence, and they're being led to slaughter and they don't choose it yeah and i love that you related this kind of to mary malone in the books and brought her up because i also thought about mary malone during this exchange but i did for a different reason it's similar to the last conversation she has with oliver The Subtle Knife, her subordinate. And I think that's going to be a very neat parallel tomorrow when they finish the entire book in one hour, all three books in one hour. Just kidding. But it does show the difference between these adults in the story. Mary Malone is an adult who stood up for what she believed in and a positive belief and wanted the

best for Lyra while letting her have free will, free will to make her own choices, mistakes, whatever she is to make. In the face of a hard no, Mary Malone said no, while Dr. Rendell said yes, right? There's this passage where Boreal has come to Mary Malone and Oliver and said, hey, you're about to lose all your research. But if you turn in Lyra and you turn in her friend, the 12 year old boy she's hanging out with, turn them in and we'll fund your research. And you just have to do some stuff for us. And Oliver says basically that he's going to work with Boreal if Mary will not. He was on the verge of quitting literally the day right there before or the day of when Boreal came to them. But he says, yes, I will work with him if you do not. And he tells her, you don't understand, Mary. And she goes, yes, I do. It's very simple. You promise to do as he says.

You get the funding. I leave. You take over as director. It's not hard to understand. You'd have a bigger budget, lots of nice new machines, half a dozen more PhDs under you. Good idea. You do it, Oliver. You go ahead. But that's it for me. I'm off. It stinks. And that's the difference between these doctors we're seeing right now, right? Like Mary Malone had the audacity to do what she believed in. And you see Dr. Rendell in this scene just absolutely be a coward-ass chicken shit through

the whole rest of the episode. Yeah, absolutely. And I do think this is very much in line with Pullman's sort of philosophy that he's putting in these books, right? Because science, or experimental theology depending on where you are right and what dr mary malone is pursuing is the pursuit of knowledge is the pursuit of learning and considering that this is in a way a retelling of the fall in the garden

of eden biting from the tree of knowledge of course pullman's all about that but what he's saying is that this suffering isn't in pursuit of knowledge right it's in pursuit of ignorance and control and power over others that's unworthy especially because you hear the sound of muffled tears coming from the girls dorm dormitories. Yeah, it's a really sad scene. It's small, it's a little artsy sad shot pans out, but it's just sad because that's what that cost is. Yeah. Children. It is a well-done transition, though,

of Lyra sort of feeling sleepless over to Will, who's also staying up, unable to sleep, because he's watching interviews of his father. John Perry talks about some things that he's taking on his expedition, and one is Will's toy car. The reporter asks if Will understands what his dad is doing, because he's like a wee bab. And John says, I don't know, he probably understands it more than my wife does he's joking because Will's again a wee bab and then Will checks in on his mom and tucks her in under the blankage because she's asleep and he's a good boy yeah I cried it got me teary-eyed I don't know about you but this one got me six for six baby every time six for motherfucking six I think I like was just so

taken out of the moment not through any fault of anyone in the scene again as I said at the top of this episode I just finished season two of Fleabag and the guy playing John Perry is the hot priest like all I could think of was like oh my god

it's the hot priest from Fleabag now he's the hot priest. All I could think of was, oh my god, it's the hot priest! From Fleabag! Now he's the hot shaman! Now he's out there! Joe Pari! Now he's the hot daddy, you know what I mean? And I was just like, whoa! I'm very confused.

I had a complete series whiplash. They're very different series. You know that feeling? All the time. I mean, we're feeling already kind of taken out of place as far as, you know, what? We got Farder Coram, who's Lord Commander. Yeah, we got Lord Commander. You got Jon Fah, who is Salador's son.

I mean, it's already kind of one of those. So why not another crossover? They only have like 15 actors there anyways, and they've all been in Harry Potter. I guess I just had some more space between those for this. It was like less than 24 hours. I was like, whoa, what's happening? I really have to watch Fleabag. I'm hearing that's the thing to watch.

I like it. Some people don't. What else? So something to bring up and this is some like tinfoil-y speculation. So are you ready? Are you ready for all this? If the connection between Elaine counting and the children counting, the ones that were severed from their demon,

is not just an accidental parallel or just a cinematic parallel, you know, it makes me wonder if Elaine was possibly forced to sever from her demon, whether on her own or by someone else. As we know, Will finds he has a demon. He just has to learn how to look at it properly and obviously ends up that way after the world of the dead. John Perry found himself a demon. And while Elaine likely hasn't traveled to another world, what if she has her demon too?

I think that the implication is we all have our demons. Exactly. So what if, and of course, this is kind of like look at Kerjava, Will's demon. What if her demon is Moxie, the murder cat? The murder cat the murder cat and i say this because a her demon did protect her and will b moxie has been known to disappear and come back and hang out then be nowhere and then come back um if she can possibly see worlds out of the corner of her eye, per our speculation last episode, I feel like this is kind of a fair question, because it means she could probably see her demon.

Like you were saying in that passage with the Mary Malone and Serafina Picard stuff, maybe Elaine could see her demon. And it does bring up other implications with this. It's obviously, this is all just show speculation for fun, but for fun. It seems characters that are forcibly severed from their demons by other people, so an act of trauma or violence not consensual, that seems to put them into this traumatized, paralytic shock state that we see the counting children in. Characters that are severed from their demons when they make the choice to do so, No spoilers are specific needed.

They seem to be intact for the most part emotionally. So I don't know if I like those implications, especially with her illness, her whether it's mental illness or impairment. I know it's not really identified, so it's fine. Whatever. But interesting speculation and interesting food for thought, I think. Yeah, I think I think it's fine whatever but interesting speculation and interesting food for thought i think yeah i think i think it's interesting i don't know that that's true of all characters who choose to have their demons severed like we have that one priest the one father um i want to say it's pavel i don't remember exactly who was going to sever mrs coulter from her demon but she escapes and then he does it to himself and he ends up the

same as uh many of those who have forcibly had their demons severed so i think it's hit or miss like you said i'm not sure i like the implications because i don't really uh i think respond well to the idea that all who have mental illness or something like agree are are not connected to their souls yeah i think that's how i felt about it i was like that that made and not even that it also is the idea of like oh so is the fact that she was severed that's why she's this way was more what i was saying like is that what they're trying to say even um i think that's weird like that parallels there for a reason and someday i'll figure it out i mean moxie's there in the books. And it's just like, I don't know, cats like Will because Philip Pullman is a cat person and apparently thinks poorly of dogs. So anyone that the cats defend and are into. Wait, hold on, hold on. What do you think Philip Pullman, you know, just because it's coming up next week, what is Philip Pullman's opinion on the musical Cats? These are questions that I have that are important to me.

You should tweet it at him so he doesn't respond. You're right. I should ask. I should ask that. Finally. I can't wait for you not to get a response to that. I'll ask. um i'll ask so also one of the references that john perry makes in this video regarding like the records that he's keeping and writing he says it's kind of like shackleton and so this is a

reference to explorer erda shackleton who lived at the turn of like the 20th century between 1874 and 1922 British explorer famous for exploring the Antarctic during a period known as the heroic age of Antarctic exploration and I kind of wonder if this is a thing that like has a lot more cultural weight in the UK when it comes up in a show right especially one from the bbc because in 2002 shockleton was voted 11th in a bbc poll of the 100 greatest britains famous interarctic explorer went on quite a few expeditions ended up actually dying on one of them uh died on a voyage where his boat just like wasn't good enough but he's like you know we're gonna do it anyway and then he's like nope the boat wasn't good enough

died on south georgia which is a sub-antarctic island not related to georgia from my understanding anyways so i wonder if this is just a thing like but anyways so I thought that was just like a cool reference because you know that's pretty much him yeah I don't know if it's like only him it seems like there were a lot of explorers like this but

you know people are into explorers and John Perry's like yeah I'm really into that guy. I want to be like that guy. Outside of Elaine's house, they are watched by Thomas and the unnamed Flacky. Thomas is unhappy that the unnamed thug has not gone inside.

He says Elaine knows they're watching, and that it's enough for now, and they'll find an opportunity soon enough for now he's unnamed flacky uh but we're gonna see the moxie murder cat scene that's what this meant yes that means they are going in and that moxie is gonna trip a bitch up oh my god is thomas is gonna die thomas is the blonde guy wow i kind of like thomas he's a weirdo i did too he grew up maybe they'll kill the other guy yeah he's not really like a good weirdo he i kind of like thomas he's a weirdo i did too he grew up maybe they'll kill the other guy yeah he's not really like a good weirdo he's kind of a bad weirdo he's like getting off on

psychologically torturing his family yeah but he's interesting wow yeah but i mean he's just like more interesting than like i don't know some of the other bad guys that we've seen you know yeah this unnamed flacky is boring in the car yeah we're definitely gonna see that and i guess that makes sense right so they do all the will stuff some of that probably happens like all that murder cat and then that means like maybe the last scene or something is lyra entering the world and will entering sitagaze at the same time but in different places and like bam that's it at the season one i could see that i could see it and even now they're paralleling each other right because like both will and lyra are under surveillance at this moment being watched yeah yikes big yikes speaking

of big yikes a zeppelin lands at bull vanger and, and it is no Bollvanger and Mash, my friends. Oh my god. It is Mrs. Coulter. It's identifiable even from the window in the dorm. The girls point and say that they can see the monkey, and it's her. And immediately, the leader takes charge to ensure she takes a boy for her experiments this time, not one of the girls. And the leader's not Lyra. The leader isn't Lyra.

Yeah, it's Andy in the books, but it's strange. I can't remember what they said in the show, but either way, she's the leader. She's the ringleader. This girl was all barking orders, saying,

we're not letting her take a girl this time, because they just had a girl go. So that sucks. She was a good actress. She did well with... Very emotional in the face. Yeah, the very yeah that sucks she was a good actress she did well with uh very emotional in the face yeah the very small amounts that she was given so and then mrs coulter does arrive right they discuss the effects of the new equipment on the children they're all like the mortality rates lower now we did it and the responsiveness they're like now we can sever them when they're

conscious and they stay conscious i'm like conscious isn't i don't know if that's the word i would use for that but okay and mrs culture's like great i want to see it in action yeah i love that they're just like it's getting better ish yeah lyra reveals part of the plan to the girls she tells the girls in her dorm that there are people on the way to save them when they don't really believe her or trust her she tells them Coulter is her mother and she tells the truth of what happens to the other children she asks them to hide her

I am a little confused by some of the dialogue in this scene and how like smoothly this goes for Lyra like you just turn off because why does everyone believe her when she's like she's my mother it's like oh okay yeah for sure that totally makes sense I think as another little kid I'd be like what? and then why would that be a sign

of like oh we gotta help her as opposed to we should distrust her right because truly I think the question here would be more like wait so you mean you don't have to fucking be here right i feel like like i do enjoy maybe annie's line of i trust nobody in this place it reminds me of dr carne telling lyra to keep her own counsel though she doesn't heed it until it's too late when it comes to Asriel. And I'm just like, Annie, why are you trusting? Why are you trusting Lyra right now here? It reminded me of Asriel saying he doesn't trust anyone in that first episode and Coulter as well,

when she said it. And interestingly enough, in a way, reminds me of the alethiometer telling her that Will was a murderer and her trusting him. Who would want to admit Coulter was their mom is my first question. That takes a lot of bravery. And absolutely, if she was on Coulter's agenda, being her quote unquote assistant, like she was originally supposed to be, she would have probably infiltrated this exact thing to lure them and trap them maybe. Right. But to me, it's just it wouldn't make sense for Coulter's daughter to go in the dorm. but to me it's just it wouldn't make sense for Coulter's daughter to go in the dorm I see all sides but I'm saying that maybe the kids trusted in innocence and bravery over this because they would have died either way if that was the case yeah you know yeah I just am like I don't know it didn't seem important in this moment to me other than like maybe reminding the audience

of that connection that might have been what it was meant to be before it happens, before she yells mother in a few scenes. I do like that connection of the alethiometer reminding her or telling her that Will is murdered and her trusting him. And I think that's supposed to be the difference, right? Between her goodness, that she still trusts people despite everything that happens to her. And that in and of itself is a resilience and strength

speaking of strength oh my god Lyra hiding under the bed using all of her tiny little limbs upper body strength I could not do this I cannot Lyra's so small I also don't yeah I can't do a pull up her core

I am unfit literally her core muscles and upper body strength amazing i read books not fitness i mean theoretically people like listen to audiobooks fall doing stuff like our good friend jeff on the not a cast podcast yeah but here's the thing is, I'm not like people. Yeah. I don't do, how do you say it, things. Same. That's what I always say. I'm like, yeah, I don't move. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. They pass Mrs. Coulter's test as she gaslights and nags her way around the room ever so lightly and maternally. The golden monkey is searching around the room as well, especially after she points out the blink bed. Lyra falls to the floor after Coulter leaves, but Coulter comes back to test their composure and says, well done, as Lyra jumps up into

the bed frame again. Why didn't the monkey smell her? I don't know. If she's related to Coulter, wouldn't he just know that she was there? His nostrils were so big. Wouldn't he just smell human? How could they not smell Lyra? They are so big. Well, because she's related to coulter wouldn't he just know that she was there his nostrils wouldn't he just smell human how could they not smell lyra they are so big well because she's so clean now because they washed her maybe she smells different yeah she was dusty before um a non-sequitur tangential thought that i had about the scene where she jumps back under the bed right when mrs culture comes back in

i was like oh so dramatic when that happened i was like waiting for it to happen again then i was like no it only happens like two or three more times if this is a comedy and i would be laughing my ass off i'd be like again again so funny yeah absolutely but it's not it's totally a drama and that tension was so good because it demonstrated that power and control because when she comes back in, she says, good, because the girls are just standing up straight. It's sick. It's like a game. It's like putting a cup over a spider

and then letting it out and then trying to trap it again. I'm all for trapping spiders, but put them outside after. Yeah, I'm not trying to risk losing the spider. I don't know. I know I don't have that power and control in my life. The spider is stronger than me. The Egyptian faction is outside of Bulvanger. They're not quite there.

They're so close, but they're struggling in the snowy wind to build a mini bridge to pull their sledges across a break so apparently there are people who think that this is like filler or don't think it's really like important but i do think that it is necessary from a storytelling standpoint right to bolster a what lyra is saying and the faith that the egyptians will be there in time and she preaches it to the other kids. Because if this scene weren't there, someone would have the opposite reaction of like, how did the Egyptians get there? You know, they just came from nowhere from where they were. So I do think that this is a perfectly fine scene.

We see Tony Costa, not Macarius, stepping up, being in a little danger in his demon flying round. I think it's important to show because it also shows like it's not all roses. They don't just show up in the books and in the movie. You get that feeling like, oh, the Egyptians are here to save the day just in time. You know, somehow they were just perfectly on time. But it also raises that tension. Like things aren't looking good for the Egyptians. It it's snowy winter is not easy up here things are getting snowier and snowier and they're just trying to get through and go save the children time is ticking and

that's kind of a thing that i felt they did right here lyra really like portrayed that time's ticking she's like it doesn't matter if they aren't here yet we have to go we have to get out of here because otherwise you'll die yeah and they are there in time and it's because of this right they're trying so hard and and rushing and trudging because they know the importance of getting there and i think that's kind of goes back to also what you were saying about lyra trusts them she trusts that they'll be there speaking of that uh lyra convinces the girls that we we're gonna do it we're gonna break out and then the line is like we have to be ready and they're like ready for what she's like to fight dramatic yeah they're really into these

lines of to fight time to choose a side okay dr cooper calls lyra's name at dinner yeah they've decided congratulations you kid you're the model for mrs coulter's experiment lyra follows them down the hall and attempts to run at one point until the doctor grabs pantalimon squeezing until he's unconscious. And then his line is just only doing what's necessary, right? No response back. Yeah. Lyra's then carried into the room, and they put them in the demon cages.

The guy just kind of throws Pan's limp body into there. And then Lyra comes conscious and fights the entire way. She's screaming and running out the room. I really like the scene screaming and running out the room. I really like the scene of her running out from the- Like, just making a beeline in whatever way she can. And then as they capture her again, shove her into the cage, she screams that Mrs. Coulter wouldn't want this,

but they keep going anyway, and the guy's like, Whoa, hold on. Maybe we should listen to what she keeps saying. She's the daughter of Mrs. Coulter, because, like, we never told any of them her name and then mrs coulter does walk in she's like what is all this hubbub i thought you had this under control and then lyra's screaming mrs coulter mrs coulter mother she realizes lyra stops the experiment in time as the blade's about to drop and then reaches towards her through the glass lyra faintly crumples yeah the machine is worrying as colter realizes it's lyra and it's very good like very

anxious the the way the machine ramps up is a really good detail the sound in the background yeah just everything of that tension in that moment this was a well done scene i'm not sure though how i feel about lyra screaming it was well done but i don't know how i feel about her screaming like you don't know who i am to save herself from the intercision machine because like i'm both unsure at this moment like whether lyra really especially in the books i don't think she still quite fully realizes her privilege in this whole thing and if she did like again the other girls should have fucking called her out for it a moment

ago because that means like she's safe from this place and severing like what does she have to fear and then that she does use it in this moment kind of feels to me personally like a betrayal of Lyra's character yeah I can understand that I do feel devil's advocate that uh i think what they're doing in

this episode that i'm noticing is i feel like maybe we missed out on a lot of that lyra characterization in the very first few episodes i don't know whether it was it was just too much world building and it got lost but even in the movie in the golden compass the adaptation had at the beginning just lyra being lyra right you really got to know lyra in the movie, in the Golden Compass, the adaptation had at the beginning just Lyra being Lyra, right? You really got to know Lyra in the first few scenes. She's running the Egyptian kids all over the neighborhood and just being a mess, being a messy little shit. And I love that about her. But in the show, it's almost like we got this more mature Lyra.

Obviously, she has aged up a little bit. And she's just now getting into her swing of lying, right? Like, the first few episodes, we didn't get her with all the shenanigans we're getting from her now. We get like at least a strong two shenanigans an episode. Yeah, it's a strong two shenanigans rate. So we didn't really have that in the first few episodes. We had more of a one shenanigan per episode rate going i think yeah so i'm wondering if they're just trying to ramp up for the next episode because we need it to be believable that lyra can lie and lyra can manipulate and lyra can you know really test her prowess next episode i think so i'm wondering if that's part of it if they're just trying to show her like really being sly and sneaky this episode yeah and using all of her tools to become silver tongue yeah yeah that's fair mrs coulter then tends to lyra

she gives her some chamomile tea which lyra refuses at first and then mrs coulter says my mother used to make it for me because i was an emotional child oh my god and then she said that and then she's like the thing you said in there and asks who told her who told lyra that mrs coulter was her mother and that she'll answer any of her questions she tries to give lyra more tea and is like all right you don't need to refuse to drink it. If I was trying to drug you, I have many other options. Okay. Interesting. Interesting.

Interesting. Huh. Yeah, she just, like, starts off, and Lyra still has given her nothing, right? Like, Lyra's like, mm-mm, not touching this. And Mrs. Coulter finally is like, well, this is why I gave you away. It wasn't because I didn't love you.

It's just it wasn't going to be good for you and me. And Asriel had other ideas for you. And I just wasn't equipped. And I never meant you any harm. And finally, Lyra's just like, okay, well, what the fuck is this place? Because you're harming a lot of fucking kids. Seems like you may mean some harm, even if you don't think it's directed at me. Yeah, and true but mrs coulter's

justification for it to lyra is that dust is awful and grown-ups being a grown-up sucks because then you have all like the sin and the guilt and the regret is uh those are the things that she feels that adulthood is characterized by and then you're bound to be sinful forever and then she goes on to say that eventually lyra you know your demon's a nice pet but then you're gonna grow to be like oh i don't really like this resent and she's like they're trouble and all those feelings they grow they let the dust in and right now the experiment's not 100 safe so a lot of casualties she's like i don't know if i could trust that you could test the equipment she doesn't say that explicitly but uh she's like maybe trying to pretty much she's maybe trying to apply it but it's more of just you know what it is it's that she's like she

knows it's bad and doesn't want her daughter to go through it yeah and lyra catches on to that obviously because she calls her out and she's like ro Roger and Billy, though, like Roger and Billy, what's going to happen to them that you could have done this to them? And or you did one of them. But she says, Oh, like, I'll make sure it's okay. And she goes, Well, Billy's dead. Then Mrs. Coulter delivers. And it is the best lie because she just goes, Well, that's unfortunate. because she just goes, well, that's unfortunate. The way she does it, you're like, oh my god. I died. That and then later,

we'll get to this in a second, but she goes Star Wars. There's some very obvious Lyra in the cave foreshadowing going on here regarding drugging her, right? I was like, oh, we're just gonna do that? It's just as good as when she was like, I like to think about jumping off a cliff sometimes.

Yeah. There's a shout out to anyone who is reading or has read Secret Commonwealth, Eliana, not you. No shout out to me. Talking about demons nature going forward in the future. Maybe someday Eliana will read it and we could have a very smart discussion. We don't know.

We don't know. We don't know. The line that Coulter says in this that is just like chillingly gross is, Every boundary in experimental theology requires the sacrifice of the few for the many.

This is something that has been what, shared between many different groups of just discrimination and prejudices in many different ways across history and many different things that have happened. You do hear this, this ideology in the doctor's conversation about the Gyptian boy who escapes and how she's infuriated by it and how everyone kind of treats the Gyptians as low class second rate, right? I think they're doing an okay way of kind of showing where the Gyptians stand or sit or boat in society. But there's a lot that the show does not depict as well.

And if you've checked out our friend Lo's essay or the episodes we've spoken about it, you'll hear about the horrible treatment of the Sami people. And this episode has done something with that. But it's also done something with the idea of concentration camps in a way that reminded me a lot of what we know of the Holocaust. Other shows like Game of Thrones were really heavy handed in what they've implied from history by using specific quotes and style of speeches on the show with imagery and it kind of usually feels like a cheap move in production to inspire fear and emotion from your audience but subtle things like this in the speech or yes subtle right or the shaving of children's hair i mean things that are what background moments, right? It's not something that you see happen as far as the children's hair, but you see the effect of it.

It just really rang out during this episode, adding to inspiring the horror of what's happening to these people and their lives. Celia Easton, who was a professor in humanities in Genesio in New York, now dean of planning, once wrote in some notes a couple of things that I found really interesting about the Holocaust, specifically hair shaving. Prisoners who entered the camps were told their heads would be shaved to fight lice. In fact, hair was a precious commodity used in the construction of delayed action bonds because it expands and contracts uniformly. Interesting. delayed action bonds because it expands and contracts uniformly interesting after the camps were liberated the allies found other nazi uses for the body parts i won't go into some of the gruesome details there but uh it's not not pretty as some may know some may not when i first started reading these books and i'll preface this with five years ago, I would not analyze books in the way that Eliana and I do this every week and analyze

books. I would not think of books in that way, because especially fantasy, I've been a big fantasy reader my whole life, but it's escapism, right? And five to 10 years ago, I was a different adult than I am now. I was a young adult, and I'm still a young adult, but I was a different young adult. We're still young. I'm still young, but I was a different young adult then. We're still young. I'm still young, but I was a different young adult then. I didn't really, I don't think I had the world

weariness or understanding of how the world works of, you know, we don't all get the same education. We get told different things at school. You don't learn the truth about a lot of history at school, right? I know if you live in America, you probably have learned that in your adult life. And it's nuts. I didn't understand a lot of this. The first time I

read these books, I had inklings and etchings of some of the prejudices and different things that were kind of being represented. Our friend Lowe's essay on the Sami people, and a lot of this just awful eugenics that has gone on that opened my eyes to a lot of it and i did at first the first pass through reading this kind of relate the gyptians to the roma people and in the holocaust gypsy camps were a huge thing a section of auschwitz that house dark-skinned gypsies that was considered racially inferior by Nazis, and the Roma people were in family camps for a very long time. They were lucky enough to be in family camps, according to the Nazis, because they were, of course, accorded as Catholics. And eventually,

they actually dismantled that and just assimilated them back into culture. And by culture, I mean their other camps, Nazi culture, it's it's like really horrifying. But the Egyptian people have obviously been very much so persecuted and ostracized in this society. And I'm glad that we finally get to feel some of the effects of it. I don't really love some of the Makhasa stuff I know we're going to talk about later, that kind of got me a little edgy again, just because the characterization of some of these people is not up to snuff for me. I feel like we haven't really gotten to a core until now and what Coulter says about theology reminds me so much of the phrase, our bait mocked fry, work makes one free. It's paraphrased from

the gospel of Saint John in Protestant tradition, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. This appeared at the entrance to Auschwitz and many of the other Nazi concentration camps. The term originated in 1873 novel by German nationalist and philologist Lorenz Deifenbach. It was about a gambler who found virtue through hard work and labor. And then the phrase was adopted and perverted by German and Austrians alike in power, specifically by the Nazi party. It was later used in French, La Travaille Rennes Libre, by Auguste Forel, who was a psychiatrist, neuroanatomist, and wrote several books, one that translates to The Ants of Switzerland.

Yikes. And in 1922, ethnic nationalist organizations used it to promote membership stamps. And in the 30s, Nazis used it to promote programs against unemployment. So contrasting this phrase, one of the camps, Buchenwald, had a much more honest perversion of this quote. I say honest. I don't mean honest positively. It's just a more accurate one, which the truthful version was each gets what they deserve. And the fact that Coulter says this and then turns around in the same breath and basically says, well, I'm sorry that this is the only thing I'm good at. And my work is going to change the world. Like, I'm sorry that this is the only thing I'm good at and my work is going to change the world.

I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you. Wildly out of touch. Wildly out of touch. The fact that they've torn apart all these families and peoples and life just recklessly and just slaughtered these children, basically, without even blinking an eye. Dr. Cooper basically without even blinking an eye dr cooper without even blinking an eye hits the button yeah it's bone chilling it is it's just disgusting that power corrupts that's what it is and not just power that that idea of the perversion and idea

of what necessity is and i think that this is the things that you're talking about are referenced in this episode and made clear not just through Mrs. Coulter or Dr. Cooper I think it's made most clear perhaps in Dr. Rendell and the idea that by not taking a stand by just

going along with what is quote unquote necessary by just doing what you were told that isn't enough it's not enough that complicity is in of itself if you are complicit in doing these things and just doing what you're told if it is part of horrors and violence it it is violence we talk about what violence is a lot in a bunch of the books that we read and i think that dr rendell's absolutely pointing to all of the um ways that you're talking about how a genocide occurs when people don't stand up against it when people don't call it out absolutely and

our bait mocked fry i mean that was it was written as like a phrase in a book to say, oh, this guy should have pulled up his bootstraps and through hard work, he was cured. And that's what Coulter is saying here that, you know, we cure them. This is a cure. And it's not if people suffer from your cure. How is it a cure? Yeah, and how come only some people are subjected? So I think this is something that Pullman does want people to think about, because I think that there can be good that comes from religion, but here he's showing how religion, of course, can be used to pervert and oppress people, and that's something that he's interrogating in these books very much. It's not the first or the last fantasy, even youth fantasy series to allude to genocide. I think one thing that Pullman has that we see in other books, maybe lesser done, J.K. Rowling, she had all of these tools right here. I mean, our bait mocked fry is straight up magic is might. That's what that phrase means.

It's the same thing and it's something that she's so close like she was so close to being aware of her story so close and she never dove into some of these things in this depth and that is something i'm really grateful for with this series and even with this show that we get to see some of that especially because the one book that did dive into it was the most hot topic doubt in the movie i'm just saying it was very obvious corporations got involved at some point you know what i mean which which what are you talking about order and half blood i don't even remember those movies see exactly so coulter asks lyra if she'll sleep with her that night.

Lyra says yes. And then Coulter starts to manipulate her and is like, what about, has the Master of Jordan given you anything that you should give to your mother, dear? You know, that silly old alethiometer thing. You don't know how to look at that. Can you just give it to me? You don't need it.

And then she tells Lyra, now is the time to choose who you belong to. And then she whispers straight into the camera i am your mother and i lost my shit laughing for the second time in this scene and i don't think i was supposed to be laughing during this scene at any time so just putting that out there inappropriate emotions thank you ruth thank you Thank you, Ruth. Thank you. Yeah, and Daphne Keene does a great job, though, of being like, yes, of course, Mother. And she's like, I kept it safe this whole time, and hands her the spy fly tin. She's waiting in anticipation for Mrs. Coulter. She's like, oh, you've really taken good care of it.

Kind of weird. You sold her the clothes, huh? And then as the fly comes out, Lyra runs. She fucking nails it. She's like, out of here! Yeah, she's very good at just running. Throughout this episode. She bashes the door locking mechanism in as she leaves and we get this epic shot.

I'm talking like, this is cinematic gold. My partner and I sat here just screaming about it and we get this epic shot I'm talking like this is cinematic gold like my partner and I sat here just screaming about it where Lyra and Coulter are screaming at each other through the door and they show each side and it's art it was it was really good well done

especially as you have like that reversal of their colors Mrs. Coulter now in red Lyra in blue holding the power in this situation she's the captor now as opposed to the captive i want you all to know the closed captions for this were just variations of panning back and forth saying screaming screams screaming that that's uh that's how the scene is described i do like that we had a lot of this emotional tension and connection between Mrs. Coulter and Lyra in this scene, as opposed to the way that it was played off in the movies and a little bit in the books,

where it feels like Mrs. Coulter's only being nice to Lyra for the alethiometer. Here you get a little more complexity. It's a lot of things. She wants the alethiometer. She wants Ly little more complexity it's a lot of things she wants the alethiometer she wants lyra she wants to keep doing her work there's so many things that are at play here and i think this scene does do a good job of balancing that things can be more than one thing yeah absolutely i like there's a line where lyra parrots back something to Mrs. Coulter and basically says, I'm glad to be found. It kind of reminds me of, it feels like a perversion of a line from Amazing Grace. Like, I was once lost, but now I'm found. That reminds me of Little Girl Lost by William Blake.

Yeah, I was thinking that actually as I said it aloud. I was like, oh, it's like Chloe's thing. Yeah, I was thinking that actually, as I said it aloud, I was like, oh, it's like Chloe's thing. The handing of the tin in place of the alethiometer, something that happens in the books as well. And they, of course, recreate it in the movie, but I've never actually thought of it in the sort of like metaphoric way, the symbolic way where the alethiometer, of course, right, is a truth teller, it's a symbol reader and what lyra does is she withholds the truth from mrs coulter and gives her the tin feeds her these lies that are patched up and that's that is a physical manifestation of what lyra is doing in this moment as she tries to get away from mrs coulter of their broken down relationship and then lyra also in this acting she takes mrs coulter's hand and she mirrors the scene uh in mrs coulter's apartment where the monkey is petting pan by pulling mrs coulter's hand to her cheek because we see now that this we we knew it back then right

that this is what mrs coulter really wanted with lyra or one of the things she does and she fulfills that desire of Mrs. Coulter and and sort of acts that all out in order to get that trust and you almost see that desire come back later when she's watching Lyra from behind the wall at the fighting yeah it's conveyed all that complexity Ruth's doing a great job with this acting. I wanted to sort of wax on this idea of, you know, the Garden of Eden is ever-present in these books as a sort of backdrop, and I'll come back to that a little more, especially at the end of the season, but the Garden of Eden is, of course, associated with innocence, and it's kind of funny that the supposed mission of Bolvangar is to help preserve innocence, to keep people free of sin, especially these children, right? And it's still called Bolvangar though, because it's called the Station by those who work there, but it's called Bolvangar by everyone else, which means fields of evil. I think this is kind of a double entendre in quite a few ways right you have the idea of a field versus the garden where a garden can be uh beautiful sometimes it's just done to be what it

is whereas a field is often tilled it's there for harvest it's there for mass production and you have all of these children who are just there not really well cared for no one really loving them they're there and being churned out in this sort of factorial sort of way and then again field right because allegedly they're making great experimental theological aka scientific breakthroughs here they're not terrible things are happening here but but maybe you sort of play on the idea of a scientific field this field of research happening anyway ah it does remind me you know because they call bull anger the fields of hell it is that too yeah well lyra bashes the fire alarm in screaming after

screaming after uh after locking the door mechanism by breaking it she's like i'm just gonna keep bashing shit she tells roger to persuade the cut children to come with them and she goes off to change into winter clothes and destroy the machinery she's interrupted by sister clara She turns the situation around, asking her what the name of her demon was before they cut him from her, and she tells Lyra it was Nicholas and how she loved him so.

Lyra uses that moment of preoccupation to run. I don't know. Whatever. I didn't love the interrogation, but at least it- I think this is their way of showing it to the audience. Hey, at least you got more Clara. This is it

probably. This or maybe the next episode. She said the thing, best place. She did a good job with her scenes. The costumes do some smart stuff here as Lyra changes. Because then she dons her red hat.

So we can easily tell her apart and see that she's different and special from all the other kids who only have blue beanies. Everyone's got a beanie, though. And beanies are awesome. I hate beanies. Me. Other people, sure. But I'm not a hat person whatsoever. That's funny.

If you think about it from when I visited you. Anyways, I'm not a hat person whatsoever. That's funny if you think about it from when I visited you. Anyways, I'm not a hat person. I don't know why we're the exact opposite on, like, everything when it comes to this shit, but I hate. I love beanies. I hate wearing beanies. You're so weird. Roger frees the children.

Roger comes to the room of children, all shaved and despondent at first they won't follow him but he returns to convince them and he does a pretty damn good job he's got these great lines of do something and we can make them pay for what they did to you do nothing and all your demons will know is that hurt of that final moment is that really what you want a rude b roger no c i did love the speech and i love the scene i like the addition i'm fine with that i think he did great this was really good yeah it just sucks that we didn't get the demon cages yeah i agree i it all still feels a little off like i'm not sure if this is how it works right the the speech because of what we know being severed is supposed to be like but as you said he did a great job did a fantastic job all of his scenes are gems he's just very

cute and charismatic and he looks at the camera and has that little twinkle in his eye like i'm grinning just thinking about it he's a good kid he brings out my inner little odds of like squish cheeks i know i'm i'm grinning right now um i so in a meta sense i'm guessing they chose having the children be shown freed partly because they're kind of like walking dead-esque and kind of like what will happen in amber spyglass with lyra finding roger and freeing them that's the only reason i can see them simplifying it to this uh and demons being you know not budgetly budgetary smart and just too much on the screen so i wonder if maybe was it. But it is kind of a bummer because this is a big moment.

The demon's all getting freed. So it's like fork out some money for some puppets, goddammit. But it doesn't make sense if you have the children. So I get it. And we didn't get silly little nerdy Kaiza. Yeah.

Just give me this funny voice. Blowing the snow around. I just clearly have a thing for strange ways of speaking. lyra blows up the machine she does not use flour nor does she do anything like what ma costa taught her in that one scene what's the point we thought we were so fucking clever you're like oh what's the fucking point eliana i wrote an essay about flour mill explosions what What's the point? Man, turns out they were just gonna do it like in the books. Who would've thunk?

Why would they ever have expected something different? I guess the flour foreshadows it. Dust? I mean, it's dust. Yeah, I don't know. They realistically get away, and they survive the explosion. And then a bunch of stuff happens in a row.

Yes, you have the balloon is here! Mrs. Coulter and her monkey climb into the ducts to escape the room, which is actually great. Let's stay on this a second. We don't see her climb up. Like, she looks up

I was laughing. My partner pointed this out to me. It's an impossible climb. There's no way she got up there because she stands there and she looks up at the vent that her monkey got in. She's just staring. My partner just looks at me and is like, watch, they're not going to show how she gets up there. Boom. Break in the shot.

Next shot. She's in the fucking vent. Yeah. I don't mind it i believe it i i like it because it reminds me of lyra also crawling through the vents they're so similar which we didn't get and she she did it in mrs coulter's apartment but you're right in the book she does it lyra i was surprised that coulter that that's like i i'm not upset about how that scene happened it is what it is that's fine but it is kind of one of those things i liked better that like she fell through the ceiling tile they were like we have a child right here why don't we just use this one i thought it was yeah

it was like that and like multiple uh things of like all right we're gonna shut her up yeah yeah exactly which gave it more horror but it's horrible and also goes to show that like the shitty thing is sometimes evil isn't premeditated they do it just because they're like what do we do um so the male chicken shit doctor render is like let's not get crazy now kids do what you're told but then the gypsians show up, stabbing and hacking. And Ma Costa is like, did you know Billy Costa? And he's like, I was just obeying orders. And then she snaps his neck and he dies.

And then she's like, come on, kids. We're rescuing you. And then the children scream, which in my opinion is the understandable reaction. Yeah, a little crazy. Like, a little crazy. Like, a little crazy. Am I gonna go with the woman who just twisted someone's

neck until they died? Eh. I could do without it, but whatever. I told you this before, but it's like season 8 of Game of Thrones. None of it can hurt me now. Yeah, I mean, like, they're doing a great job with much of the

show do not get me wrong i've seen what bad looks like yes lyra is fighting some tartars on her way out things are looking bad and then eoric saves the day it's a very cute exchange she's like what took you so long and he's like good to see you too, Lyra. Much like Fardercorum last episode. Lyra, when he's like, hello to you too, Lyra, when she just goes a mile a minute. I loved it.

It's cute. Mrs. Coulter then lands her tile and then she crouches upon a desk very much like her monkey, breathing heavily. Great scene. Really good scene. Just really good little stop stopper i love that these kind of just pow pow pow they hit well some of them are longer than the others some of them are shorter than the moments others i just i really

liked it i think it's uh i think they really did this battle right i feel like you got the chaos of it all i mean the next part is aria running through King's Landing. Just kidding, it's Lyra. But they do, like you said, they do nail the chaos of the fighting. Yeah. Things are looking bad for the Gyptians again, but Yorick takes care of more Tartars. Everyone is fighting.

The evil doctor says, get the child, kill everyone else. But then Seraphina Picalla shows up and kicks some fast ass before witching herself away. So it was the witches. That was the moment from the trailer. It was not Spectres. So maybe we won't

finish the third book in the next week. We'll see. We'll see. Look at us. Making predictions. Being wrong. Oh, the flower. Yeah, I do I thought it was interesting the language that the doctor used of saying uh she's the one with the value in regards to lyra uh it's really gross goes to show you how they look at the children as just objects this one has value this one does not and then you

get right afterwards when it's all said and done and Roger leads out the children from inside. They're wrapped in red blankets and Coulter is watching from around a corner as this happens. She has tears in her eyes and she watches Lyra and Ma Costa embracing the different children. Lyra embraces Bridget McGinn, which I thought was really nice considering Bridget was Tony Mac mccarius's lyra you know yeah um in the books so uh you watch coulter with the tears in her eyes but there you have it like these are the people that were the heroes and actually like found value in these children that obviously we know aren't really responsive right now much they found the value in them yeah and some of them weren't even their children and they're like we have to save them anyway exactly then of course as you were talking about doors

closing this is i think one of those scenes as mrs coulter leaves we it's a very well done shot of um her turning around and leaving the moment and then the door shutting behind her as she closes her heart to those children and to Lyra once more. At the balloon, Lyra tells Ma Costa they were only able to free the children thanks to her son, Billy, who was a fighter. And showed them there was a way out. Yes. Ma tells her to go finish her mission. Lyra says she must free her father. Roger then gets to meet Lyra's new friends at the balloon. Very cute exchanges all around. I think this is my favorite scene in the episode. He's like, oh, this is York. That was gonna look different. them in the balloon floating away. Very fantastical.

I mean, that right there, the armored bear, the pants you're born on your balloon, Lee Scoresby piloting the balloon, Lyra and Roger and Salcilia and Pan sitting there kind of snuggled together. No! It's very classic, and it's so not going to last, the happiness, so, yup.

Yup. Doesn't last, like, by the end of the episode. Yup, absolutely doesn't. Yeah, because Lee, as he commands them to get saddled up and go, they float, and while everyone's sleeping,

Serafina Pecola appears. Interesting. Lee Scoresby is ready to retire from his case. He's like, so I had one contract. Serafina's like, you can't. Lyra needs you. This is about more than money. It's about love. She tells him that Lyra is responsible for more than their world's fates. And then, yeah, there's a lot of

like, intimacy. Yeah, um, their faces are far too close for just friends. I'm sorry, I've been just friends with people before, and that was not just friends. Oh, Chloe,

like, when I was watching this scene, I was like, Chloe's about to, like, have a heart attack. I was. I was literally screaming. I was like Chloe's about to like have a heart attack I was I was literally screaming I was like oh my god oh my god especially because then they were in the preview and I was like oh my god it's them again I'm sorry but like I'm not trying to be an asshole but Serafina and Lee are quite obviously romantic interests of each other that never get to be romantic interests of each other. Like, they start to open each other back up again. It's very nice.

It's a very pleasant feeling. Yeah. The conversation goes back and forth, and it's pretty similar to what happens in the books. Serafina kind of convinces him he has to go and watch over Lyra. She's basically like, here's your second adoption contract. I need you to sign it. It's forever. It's eternal. It's binding. He says to her, this is not how I expected this conversation to go. She's like, it's not. And he goes, no,

I was hoping you would find a way of chucking me some danger money. Instead, you blindsided me with love. He meant love for Lyra, but also it could be multiple things. But yeah. It could be both. And then, of course, it goes on and they go back and forth and she tells him,

you're a capable navigator. You'll be fine. And he says to her, she's responsible for the fate of everything and I'm responsible for her. And Serafina says, the world is in your hands, Mr. Scoresby, and I'm delighted for her and seraphina says the world is in your hands mr scoresby and i'm delighted it is it was a very nice scene to get and i'm not the only one who

ships it i'm just saying they obviously ship it it was very intimate if john fa and maggie fucked then maybe i get to have lee and seraphina okay. Okay, I'm just saying. We've had several people, James Schroeder on Twitter, even tweeted and said, oh, yeah, I thought they were a romantic interest. And I was like, yeah, that's what I thought. Anyways, I digress. It was just very nice. Even Hester kind of, like, cyber bullies Lee, and she's just like, wow, impressive.

They want you on their team. Yeah, I want him there part of the you know we're helping lyra get the fuck off this podcast uh this is it this is the moment but yeah i saw this one's like all right look chloe can die happy now i feel good i feel good about it feel I feel validated. I got, like, some hope in me for the flower now. Like, I know last episode I was like, they're not gonna have the flower! But now I'm kind of like,

maybe the bitch will get him a flower. Yeah, us two seconds ago. They don't have the other kind of flower. Us now. Give me one flower. Chloe's so full. She's filled with happiness. I'm filled with happiness. I'm filled with love. The Egyptian faction moves out.

Blindsided by love. Yeah. You got Jon Fah, maybe who's fucking Maggie, Costa, discussing the children and where they will go if the families don't want them. And Jon Fah seems pretty optimistic though about the battle. Says, like,

he had thought he would be bringing Billy home. And Maw says, Billy would have been proud of us. Oh. Sad. Yeah. Why won't you guys just say if it's a thing or not? Yeah. Like, you don't-

If they're dating, or if they're, like- Past lovers. A couple past lovers, I don't know. Like,'re dating or if they're like past past a couple past lovers i don't know like they can at least just tell us like obviously my cost of fucked well clearly there's two things right here two children's well the very final scene eliana i just want to preface this that i am just aghast at the cliffhanger that happened in His Dark Materials this week. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. You're hired.

Do I get fired? I'm hired? You're hired. It's the cliffghasthanger! I wasn't sure if they were going to really do it, and I'm glad that they did. It's a good fantastical element to include. Oh, it was so spooky. Yeah, they've been good at introducing a lot of different horror elements, right, throughout this

episode in different ways. So it's kind of fun. They have all those little clicky noises. It's kind of, I think, become a thing now in horror movies. Maybe it always was. I think one of the most famous instances of it is like predator from like you know those alien versus predator like whatever other predator movies

uh which is apparently also maybe inspired by the sounds of insects right those clicking noises that they make which naturally repels people yeah and the way they were flashing in the cracks of the balloon yeah uh and the whole time, the big thing that was so scary is they were barely visible. Yeah. We didn't get more than two to three seconds of a shot of the cliff ghast. You saw their limbs.

You saw kind of their weird, taily, wingy thing. You saw their face very briefly. It just really added to that spooky illusion. It was just enough. I thought it was the perfect scene, the perfect cliffhanger for the end of the episode. Yeah, and it's a different way of doing

their usual cliffhangers of like what's happening to Lyra? She's in danger. Instead of us being like, oh Lyra's in a new dangerous situation. Where is Lyra? She fell! We all know what happened but whatever wow well next time season one episode seven we got some bear fights happening some bear bear naked fights oh my god

we have eo for racknison yeah we have father mcphail saying mrs. Coulter Macfailed. Oh my god. Boreal shows his snake side. Lee and Serafina come close to holding hands. Macphail wants Asriel dead. Lyra tells Eofur that Eoric sucks and he rules. And that's pretty much it. That's next week. I'm pretty excited for next week, though.

Are you just gonna roar the entire time? Yeah, I, okay, I've said it before, and I really, this is so messed up, but I do secretly kind of like my Yorick more. Oh my god. I really do. I think that your Yorick is very special, not just to me, I think to hundreds of listeners, personally. I know that, you know, this person is actually a real voice actor, real actor. Allegedly. Yeah, sounds probably more like

a real bear than mine does, but I just feel like I really commit to the role. That's all. I think you make a fine a fine bear. You do a great

you bear bear. Thank you. Me bear bear. We bear bear together. You know they have a Chloe in that show. I mean it was meant to be. Well thank you so much for listening to us this week, you guys. We'll be

back next week with Season 1, Episode 7. It's not Mortal Kombat. So I'm already disappointed. Pullman, tell us who your favorite fighter was. Sub-Zero or Log Off, Pullman. Oh, yes.

And, hey, be sure to keep up with us whenever these episodes come out. We also, of course, do a reread of the A Song of Ice and Fire books, where we compile character chapters and do one character at a time. Right now, we're still wrapping up

John and Dan's. One of these days, we're gonna be done with that. But follow us on social media. You can find us at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter, C-A-N-O-N. Or, if you would like, you can shoot us an email. Maybe we'll read it at girlsgonecanon

at gmail.com. Yeah, and make sure to subscribe to us on our numerous different podcast platforms. We are hosted on Podbean primarily, but you can also find us on our numerous different podcast platforms. We are hosted on Podbean primarily, but you can also find us on iTunes, on Google Play, on Spotify,

on Stitcher, on Overcast, and on Acast. And of course, we do have a Patreon. We, this month, put out an episode about House Valerian from the A Song of Ice and Fire series as

House of the Dragon has been announced as a prequel show. We wanted to look at one of the other houses that were close to House Targaryen. And this month, for December though, our Patreon episode will be about the lantern slides that are at the end of each of

the three main His Dark Materials novels. Yes, so excited for that. As always, I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I've been another one of your hosts, Eliana. Thanks, guys. Goodbye.