Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials S1E8 - BETRAYAL.

Episode Date: December 29, 2019

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” ----  Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro: Waltz Of The Skeleton Keys by WombatNoisesAudio | https://soundcloud.com/user-734462061  

Hello everyone and welcome to Girls Gone Canon. Watches His Dark Materials, Season 1, Episode 8, Betrayal. Betrayal. Betrayal. Betrayal. It's the Season 1 finale, and I am one of your hosts. Eliana, you might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit, or maybe as Arithmetic on Twitter. And I am another one of your hosts eliana you might know me as glass table girl on reddit or maybe as arithmetric on twitter and i am another one of your hosts chloe you know me from the internet as lies in arbor on twitter

tumblr or lies in arbor gold.com wow they did that on tv they did it on tv and not the not a movie this goes to so many people you know they? They killed him. Yeah. Jack Thorne murdered Roger. How could you, Jack Thorne? It was good. It was really, really good. The episode. I think they did it. They nailed it. I think they nailed it, yeah. I think this is probably one of the best episodes

of the season. Yeah. I think they, a lot of their choices you know, in the earlier episodes like the first episode ties up so well with what they gave us here. I mean, the pacing is a lot better and the editing. They just did such a great job. Yeah, a lot of the middle of this felt kind of murky. Sure.

I'm not going to name any names, but there were some episodes that got a little lost on the way. But I think the first and last episode were very much so sharply framed. Just boom, boom boom heavy hitters yeah they stuck the landing and i think you know in many ways that's what matters well thank you everyone for waiting for us you know this is coming out a little later it is the holiday season as chloe said jack thorne did this gave us a wonderful christmas present in with the season finale but we also have a Patreon and this month's episode is going to be focused on the lantern slides that are at the end of each of the three main books, which by the way, are all fair game in this very spoilers all episode.

Yes, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers. That's what we have under the tree for you all. Yeah, open the box. What what is it everything that's ever happened a severed head well that's not what i meant even me i i too could be spoiled it could happen to anyone yeah did you guys appreciate that i bleeped out the spoilers so that you didn't get spoiled but eliana was already spoiled i mean i don't know how all those the bleeps actually really covered it. I think they were perfect. Thank you very much.

Yeah, I'm excited about our lantern slides episode. We're going to have that up right in the nick of time before 2020. So be sure to check that out if you haven't seen them before. If you haven't read the book, even, you are just getting spoiled like crazy in these podcasts but at the very end of the main trilogy books there are lantern slides and believe it or not we'll get into this in just a hot minute but the lantern slides are actually being looked at for the writing of this show yeah they're really pulling from a lot of great places like we don't always agree with some of the choices but i think that they've really captured a lot in this show. So clearly a labor of love.

Absolutely. I feel at least semi-trustworthy that they got it. I trust them more than Asriel. I know that they love the books. There's that. We have that going on. It's in common. Commonality. Yes, last time on His Dark Materials. Boreal, Lord Boreal is a creep, of course. You gotta leave Elaine alone. Also also as we all know john perry aka the hot priest from fleabag is still alive will is a murderer he's killed a dude yeah he is our little boy after conquering the bears lyra searches for asriel with yorick and roger under pressure from work marisa must find asriel lyra brings a gift to azrael but it's not what

you think and then james mcavoy is about to earn his entire paycheck um i'm totally just kidding but it does turn out the original actor dropped and he had to fill in and somehow he fit 20 days of shooting in while he was also filming the second it movie wait who is the original actor yeah um the original actor is not something that's info out to the public i tried i searched i begged i looked but no nothing yet i'm sure it'll come out in the next whatever time i'm sure we'll learn who the original actor was supposed to be but it ended up being james mcvoy and he filmed for 10 days for the first episode and then the other 10 days he filmed were for the last episodes that's nuts that is his whole role

20 days they go on uh there's way more too there were different versions originally of asriel in the show one of the versions had him in every episode. One version had the audience seeing him captured by the bears, but they ended up settling on what Pullman did the easiest thing, Asriel in the first, Asriel in the last. And from what Make-A-Voy has kind of said in some of the interviews, I think we're going to see more of the made up Asriel stuff in season two, because you really lose that fan base for Asriel since he's not doing anything. You just hear him talked about. That is kind of what we saw a little bit in the Golden Compass movie, right? really lose that fan base for asriel since he's not doing anything you just hear him talked about that is kind of what we saw a little bit in the golden compass movie right we saw uh lord asriel

aka james bond yeah in a journey in the north and i think he doesn't get captured by the bears right because there's a budget it was the charters i guess yep so i guess i can see why they thought that would work because they're like i guess they did did it in the movie, but I'm glad they didn't. Yeah, I'm glad they played around with it, though, and they found that what worked is what worked. Yeah. There's a lot of info in an EW interview that came out a bit ago from Nick Romano covering season one and some cool stuff about the future. Really cool stuff about Coulter's outfit. Really cool stuff about Coulter's outfit.

Some of the stuff we've talked about, but specifically the costuming. Carolyn McCall said that she wanted Coulter to be in stuff that was very satiny or very like you want to touch it. Just like her demon. Just like we were talking about last episode, how you want to touch her clothing, but also it's sharp. Like it's material that's so inviting and so fancy and you just want to stroke it but then it's cut in a very sharp way and she's wearing it in a very sharp way and it's not like something you know like you look at it and you're like wow that looks dangerously beautiful yeah i thought that was great there's a lot of really cool stuff in there but there's also something that i thought was really interesting

about asriel and that jack thorne and jane trananter actually tracked all of Asriel's movements throughout the books and made a timeline of events that they brought to the author, to Pullman, to get kind of some advice on. And Pullman told them different things he had in his head that weren't on the page. And there were even other things, like I said, in the appendixes, in the lantern slides. The script editor, Zandria H horton says that they found stuff there that gave them more of a window into what was going on between asriel and stanislaus so they went really deep on this um they also were really excited about mrs coulter being able to separate from the monkey and they decided in their heads that it was probably as an adolescent maybe a latent

adolescent that she trained herself through the pain. Interesting. I like that kind of idea that she did it because she was in so much pain from what had happened, but whatever. Yeah, I think that's such great insight on the costumes. I love hearing all the thought that goes into it. And I think you can see from the fan reaction how successful they were, because I feel like Mrs. Coulter's outfits have just been a talking point in general. They've nailed it. Everyone's talking about them. every episode echoing Pullman's own choice for that first book. And, you know, it shows so much of Asriel's absence in Lyra's life. And that makes, I think, that these last moments in this episode very impactful. And I kind of think that this absence is very in line with a lot of the religious themes in this book.

That idea of like, oh, what is happening to God slash the authority as they call him throughout this? Seems like he hasn't been around a lot, you know, that absent God slash father idea. And you really feel it in the books, right? Like Lyra is very, when he shows up, she's like, you're not going to visit for another year. She sees him like annually. It's not a very common thing for Asriel to um she sees him like annually it's not it's not a very common thing for asriel to come to town yeah it's not so it works well and i think you know they did a good job of playing it up with roger in that first episode as well

uh there was a user on reddit akira with some dashes and stuff that was talking about if asriel would have used lyra since he knew the magisterium was on the way and he was out of options would he have sacrificed her out of desperation if if roger was not there um this person has not read the books they're only going by the show and they said that they can't imagine he'd leave the arctic to find a child and go back good catch there for someone not even in tune to the books i think he would have used lyra and that's why that line right that classic i did not send for you that's him looking up and thinking like oh my god this is what i get like i'm out here trying to wage a war against god and this is what i get yeah this is the price you have to pay um stannis yeah but he does try to like shove her out right in this and send her away he does try to send her away so at least he puts in that effort um i don't know he probably

would have sacrificed her i think that you saying this something clicked for me especially in our discussions about sacrifice so in episode two of when we were doing the reread of northern light slash the golden compass depending on where you are in the world these were chapters four through six of the first book you were actually talking about the binding of isaac and the sacrifice that god asked of abraham in the context of the general ablation board and what the word ablation meant, which is, you know, that offering to God, literally the definition of the word. And in the story in Christianity and in Judaism and in Islam, you know, Abraham is a God-fearing man, right?

He got ready. He was like, I'm going to sacrifice my son. He was ready to do it, partially because he trusted in god's plan or whatever for him uh in islam the belief in many sects is that the son who's brought for sacrifice is ishmael not isaac just throwing that out there for general knowledge and that there is no binding as ishmael actually agrees to the sacrifice and abraham demonstrates his devoutness as he raises right this knife or maybe a blade knife blade it same thing interesting thought above his own son before an angel messenger stops abraham because they're like okay you proved it you did it your faith is very clear and then instead a ram

appears from the bushes and that's what abraham sacrifices instead and i think it it's really cruel the way that roger kind of gets interpreted as these different things throughout the story there's another thing i forgot a few episodes that were like shit does that mean roger is this thing and here i don't love the idea of thinking of him as like expendable or like a ram right but it is interesting because that is how asriel kind of sees him that's how roger sees azrael's look on his face right as like a meal as a prey it's also interesting because azrael's a man who hates the authority he's willing to go to these lengths and it's again this perversion of these religious figures and this idea, you know, had it been Lyra and that belief that the universe, something was going to provide a sacrifice in the way that Abraham kind of trusted that God would. But rather than that immediate acceptance, he does tell Lyra first, like, I did not send for you, try to get her to leave.

And regardless, the universe does provide Roger as that ram for him. He was definitely a sheep to slaughter. Roger. I almost forgot that that happens in this episode. Like, I was getting really into the stuff you were saying, and then you were like, and then Roger's dead. And then Roger died. I forgot about all of it. We got an email from John of Knoxville, the Prince of Sunsphere, who said

Chloe and Eliana, I enjoyed the book and show podcasts on His Dark Materials this season. I can't wait for the finale. I just finished La Belle Sauvage last week. Hmm. Interesting, Eliana. Interesting. Last night I watched Aeronauts on Amazon Prime. It's not great.

Newt Scamander and Jyn Erso go up in a balloon and measure the temperature. Lee Scoresby isn't in the movie, but Lewin Lloyd, who plays Roger in his Dark Materials is. He only has a few lines where he uses a very non-amber spyglass. Keep it up.

I love that. I didn't know that Lewin Lloyd did other stuff. I guess I never looked. Me neither. I guess I was like, he's so young. This is clearly one of his first but you know how else would he be such a good actor if he didn't have all this experience he's really good it's his face he's got that cute little cheek he was in a couple other things he was in something called taboo in 2017 um yeah that kid's gonna go far is this child older than we think he is he acts so mature

he delivers his acting so maturely not that he's acting mature you know what I mean I really don't know there's no Wikipedia for him or anything god it's a mystery good for him stay out of the spotlight Luan you're doing great

stay in the aeronauts is aeronauts good? Because it just tells us. No, he said not good. Oh, you're right. You're right. All right. Well, at least I know not to watch Aeronauts.

I mean, it sounds like it's a fun show, theoretically. I think it's a movie. Movie? I don't know what it is. It just doesn't look great. Well. I could try it. I could try it. I could try it.

Every now and then you need something on in the background. We also got another email from our good friend Julie, who actually tried to send this a couple of times. And Julie, we got it. We got your email. Thank you so much for not giving up and sending it to us. So Julie, aka InkyPages on Twitter, says, Hi, I found my husband's reaction to the end of his dark material is really sad he despite having read northern lights in the 2000s the 2000s was a long time ago i feel this it we're going into 2020 anyway he thought it was only going to be one series which for clarification for our american listeners series means season but in

british but in british english and julie says he needs a hearing test because i had to explain will being in this series a few weeks ago he was really disappointed that the ending was such a cliffhanger he was very upset by the treatment of ro, who he agreed last week is a cinnamon bun. Oh no. Maybe he's forgotten the plot. I remember Julie raising this to us on Twitter, being like, my husband agrees that he's a cinnamon bun. Like, oh no. Oh no.

Oh no. That's not. You know that he. Someone tell him. I'm going to tell him. He's mentioned it again today that the ending needed to be more concrete because, in quotes, what if Lyra just keeps walking into light and never gets anywhere? That snake bloke got to our world really quickly.

He wasn't faffing around in someone's life force. I think we need to see him as a non-book reader, just like I did for Aswath. I won't let him read the books. People are cruel to horses, and my tender-hearted man would never recover. It led me to a second question. Is that how you would end a show for a non-book reading audience? It's

something I frequently ask myself about book-to-screen adaptations. Far more people will watch than will ever read. That's not a slam on readers at all. It's not possible to read everything that you want, but it is possible to fall asleep in the middle of the Golden Compass movie film more than once.

And then Julie wishes us, and I'm going to do what I did with Pat's email and extend it to all of you listeners, a happy holidays and new year. And, you know, thanks everyone for being with us this year. Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you, Julie. Make sure you check her out on Twitter. It's at Inky Pages. As to where would you end the show for a non-book reading audience? I don't think I can answer this. I don't either. I think you'd have to end it at the end of the third book when all the windows get sealed back up and they have to go home

we're not going home, not really Harry Potter music this is where I do think I would end the season I can't think of any other way because this is just how I think it should have been it's what was one of the failings with the first movie the only movie you have to kill Roger

I mean it's a Ned Stark dying moment of this series yeah I know that like sometimes cliffhangers like that can like I don't know be hit or miss for people and it depends on how it's executed because I know that the first season of

the OA and I kind of worry that this because i know that the first season of the oa and i kind of worry that this is part of why the second season wasn't as successful like the first season ended like on a cliffhanger but it felt like it was undoing everything but it didn't and i think that the second oa nailed having a cliffhanger that also opens possibilities in a good way so save the away i feel i i and there is that worry about season two right we just don't know how it'll be let's be real it was recorded right away right like they filmed season two so fast uh and it does make me wonder you know what kind of uh not critis i guess critique you know what kind of critique might come that maybe they should listen to in between those two like we'll see what they come up with product wise i think

something they have really strong going for them is that they know their boundaries they know what they want to be episode one and they want to be the last episode episode eight of each season it feels like so they know kind of where their constraints are right yeah and i think they're planning accordingly which is good and and that's something that comes through in that interview that you just discussed they talk about some of those boundaries not just like in terms of storytelling of where they want it to be but also they're like well this is what we have from the studio or in terms of budget you know that's why there aren't as many scenes with witches right we don't get them in that bad final battle of this

episode they're like we only had so much budget for this and like i feel that yeah but next season obviously they have to be prominent yeah and and they they did promise that so at least they got greenlit for a second season so we have that going for us and i think right are they already starting work on the third i think they are in pre-production. So we have all of that. Again, I don't know how I would end the show for a non-book reading audience. Listeners, if you have loved ones or hated ones or indifferent ones that, you know, watch the show and have never read the books. You're Asriel's, you're Mrs. Colton's. Please let us know what you know ask

them for us and for julie ask them what they thought about the ending how they would have ended it maybe if what their reaction was to it and let us know let's talk about the episode it opens up with airships crossing the sky and it has magisterium men and women aboard woman yes just one woman god is a woman um coulter is aboard and she is fingering a revolver it's a dramatic scene there's good music you know kind of weird because the revolver really didn't come back because she didn't have to use it it's a great point well just putting that out there does she use it in like later books i don't remember yeah i think she does but she doesn't use it now yeah and it was really prominent it is the first act so maybe this is her chekhov's gun oh my god i'm not joking i'm being very serious right now

no that's really all i can think of because... It has to go off by the third act, third act book, third book, obviously. That's literally how the series is written. Well, actually, I don't know. I haven't, like, parsed it all out, but obviously. There's only one mention of Revolver, and it's Lee. You know, they're probably gonna have her shoot

at some point. Maybe while defending Lyra in the cave or something, you know? Maybe at the bomb? Yeah. Maybe. We'll see. But didn't happen this episode. No. Thought this was an interesting line, especially as you think about it in the rest of this episode and then the rest of the series. The speakers, you know, the overhead announcement thing, says, I implore you to channel the authority in this time of need. Anyway, that's it.

They've been kind of skirting it a little bit they're not going too hard into the religion but they're going just enough and it worked here it was chilling creepy orwellian we get it yeah yikes the best place you could be oh the best place you could possibly be except for you know still mario nazaril in their super cushy fucking lab which is actually a better place to be if you're not Roger. Yeah, they kind of argue very softly with each other or discuss that he needs to, you know, kill the boy. And Stell Maria then tells him it's time, and Asriel knows, obviously.

Obviously. The lab scenes are beautifully shot. Also, the audio is interesting. So in the scene as we back out, right, of the Aurora, the roarer, if you will. Am I wrong in thinking that in the audio I heard, I feel like I just barely heard what sounds like crackling noises as it zooms out from it. Like, I know you brought this up in a previous episode. So like, is that this? It sounded like it to me.

It really did sound like it. I heard them too. And obviously at this rate and at kind of like how in depth they're going with this series, it wouldn't surprise me if that was what it was. It sounded like crackling noises. And in that very last Northern Lights episode where we finished the book, we did discuss that the Aurora makes sounds. They generate in the air about 230 feet above the ground,

according to Finnish studies that use microphones to record and pinpoint the source of the surging hiss during a magnetic storm. And this was from the 2016 Anchorage Daily News. But this happens all the time with the Northern Lights. So yeah, great detail. They did the research. Also a continuation of like talking about the framing shots that we've been seeing throughout this entire, entire first season. Should have been really fun, especially with the windows, because I'm never gonna let these go.

We have it again here, right? It's zooming out of the Aurora and the mountain. Then we find that we're looking at it through a window. And there are calculations written on the window and it ends up being overlaid on the Aurora. and there are calculations written on the window and it ends up being overlaid on the aurora and turns out Asriel has literally outlined the mountain on his window which is really fun.

Great shot framing. I don't really understand science but I wish I did because I'd just figure out what it all meant for us. Right, so anyone, if you know how to do equations and read science and by that I mean not smart ass things

about like oh 2 plus 2 equals 4 like obviously I know those kinds of equations you know if any of this means anything to you and actually is real things please let us know what's on this window yeah do we have any astrophysicists out there um no

but I guess I could like try and find one if you're a you're an experimental physicist and you're listening go hit up my forensics boyfriend be like hey we haven't talked in a while um i know that can you read this for me do you speak it yeah i know we're not close anymore, but... Anyway. It is also a mountain in the books, but it's something that stood out to me more as we literally see a mountain and Lyra climbing it. You know, the mountains make sense, right? Of course, it brings you closer to the heavens in a literal sense of closer to the Aurora, but that's how people understood it in religion. You had Mount olympus where

like the gods lived on in in the bible you have mount sinai moses goes on it he gets the ten commandments comes back in the divine comedy dante his self-insert that is literally him goes up a mountain mount purgatorio and at the top is the Garden of Eden. And interestingly, it turns out the Sami people also have their own sacred mountain, Mount Akka, which means woman or old woman, and it has the nickname of the Queen of Lapland

or something. Interesting real mountain stuff. Anyway. Yeah, I love being able to actually see some of that scenery here. Yeah, I like the way that the scene ends and all the lighting in the lab from this scene on is just exquisite. Yeah. And I really love that that photogram that we see of sitagaze. Yes, I wanted to call it twitagaze. But I love that because he was like, a repeating focal

point that it just keeps being set down on counters and you see asriel working over it you see lyra stare at it you see thorold you know holding it and putting it down i think it's a really interesting focal point to kind of usher in what season two is going to be yeah it does that and also like it's so helpful for just part of why this episode's so strong it all holds together and just like this is an absolute banger of an episode it's an absolute banger of an intro song coming up now there stops being good it's good every single time and you know there was absolutely nothing new in this intro right like i was like what if they do something new nothing new but i don't want to leave you guys hanging because you know me i notice something new every week

if you pay attention, during Ruth Wilson's poof of dust, when her name goes on the screen, angel wings get very lightly etched, and then it looks like the form of an angel, and it goes poof, and it's gone. Yeah. The dust coming off during Makasa's actress scrolls on the screen, the dust that

poofs there is a bunch of feathers and wings, like the Egyptian bird demons. Hmm. Yeah. They did all, a lot of them have birds and like of course tony costa with his falcon and i forgot who it was in real life in real life all right demons and dust which i guess is the organization or whatever that hbo is using it's the handle for the account for his dark materials and they're also sending out demon statues in cool boxes with cool descriptions of thank you. We heard you were a fan and we wanted to send you what we think would be your demon. Right. And they had an explanation about Falcon demons being like sharp sighted and things like that. And for I forgot who received it. And it came with a cool falcon statue. Some people got like cool jackrabbit statues. Someone else got like a cool whatever.

And the point is, hello, Demons and Dust. Sponsor us. We would also like, we too are big fans. All right. I read these 16, I've said the number many times, 16 to 15 years ago. 17, I don't know whatever we're at a weird time okay also it's like how are we supposed to choose our demons

we need someone else to do it for us yeah the year is turning I need them to do it and clearly they've done it for these people and those people were super jazzed to get their demon statues and I just want them to know I would be super jazzed for someone to pick out a demon statue and send it to me and tell me who i am from an official publication like demons and dust specifically from them you just dud pan to the camera like i haven't been happy since the first time i read these books please send it to me yes please so we're back from our

intro song and lyra and Pan are looking through the lab. Asriel is hard at work on what Lyra doesn't know. He does not look happy to see her, but she positively beams at him. He's semi-impressed at her convincing Yorick to care for her, but he does not want her there. She asks him to tell her the truth and he shuts her down, saying this is getting sentimental and that he no longer wants to discuss her parentage with her she wants to give him the alethiometer and take roger with her and leave but he doesn't need the alethiometer and it's also late she's angry and she can't believe that he calls himself a father but he says that's the point he's never called himself a father

uber yeah fucker good character work here uh really james mcavoy killed it this whole episode i'll give him that i'm not i'm not like 100 sure if i'm sold on him still i just don't know i need more of him i need more i don't know but i also just don't care as we discussed last episode but they're obviously trying to evoke some of this emotional weight with him and Lyra. Yeah. I think so. They actually split the scene,

right? I thought it was a strong scene between Daphne Keene and James McAvoy. When she first comes in to the room, there's this really great nonverbal acting at the beginning. And I do think that's separating this conversation of theirs from when they talk about what dust is which is how it's presented in the books i think divorcing those two moments from one another does as you said like it it really deepens and makes this more about their relationship and you know how he's never called himself a father which i think

is a great contrast with mrs coulter especially at the end of the episode. And I think that James McAvoy does give Daphne a lot to work with here. And I think she does an amazing job, especially as how she like delivers, you know, how proud she would have been to call herself like his daughter, like her eyes are shining. She's looking off. And it's just really, really great. That's one of the saddest parts of this to me is because you can see on her face that she's been wanting a parent right wanting someone to love her to be proud of her to be proud of for so long uh in the way she idolizes as real the way all of his postcards or any any sort of thing about him is just up on her wall it's almost like she was always hoping and praying and wishing that Asriel was secretly her father.

And then he was. But then it turns out he was her father. Yeah. Absolutely. That's such a good point about how she would keep everything he sent her as memorabilia. Yeah. She idolized him. He was an explorer.

And that's like she idolizes a Marisa when she meets her before she knows all of her evil and that she'sized him. He was an explorer. And that's like she idolizes a Marisa when she meets her, before she knows all of her evil and that she's her mother. She wants independence and freedom, which is really what this story is about, right? And it's root. It's free will. It's having that free will and that choice. And yeah,

it's a bummer because he betrays her as much as she betrays Roger here, obviously. Yeah. His betrayal is very hurtful and it shows on Lyra. It is betrayal. She hoped that maybe one adult would just not be shitty in her life. And she dragged Roger on this whole thing.

He could have gone back to Oxford and the Egyptians. I did love the line when they're talking about Mrs. Coulter and she goes your choice in women is almost as bad as your choice in bears it was so lyra i laughed so hard because not only is it her ragging on him like yeah she sucks she's the worst but it's also her taking a moral standpoint like mrs coulter the worst

yofer the worst like these are bad these are bad choices you're not making good choices yeah it was a really great addition helps break up the scene but yeah it's so weird to think that asriel preferred yo for yeah anyway it's weird that both of them preferred yo for to york yo for i think wanted to be that third throuple throuple throuple um i do feel like i mean obviously yofer was just like taking their bets against you know each other like oh i'll play her like a fiddle i'll play him like a fiddle uh until obviously he learned oh azriel's too fucking smart gonna lock that bitch up because marisa you know paid him to but marisa had bigger wallet, but... Yeah, but... They saw him as the weaker choice, is the bigger thing, I think. Easier to manipulate.

To control. A big part of this episode and series. So, Marisa and the monkey are making angry monkey faces again. Father Macphail comes in, telling her that they'll be at the north by morning. They have the firepower and the belief of god the authority on their side but of course asriel has science father mcphail is afraid of asriel's work and mrs culture leverages it leverages this against him she feels no fear while father mcphail does i do like the way this scene opens i know that the monkey's supposed

to be super scary and it is for many people and i know that this scene is probably very scary like in a good way that it works for many people but i feel like the bristling and like the the itching on the back of him of the monkey is just hilarious for me it's like the same feeling as when you like pet a dog and there's that one spot towards the hind legs and you just scratch it and then their leg just twitches. You know what I mean? It's the best. Also, Mrs. Coulter, though, as she comes closer to being truthful about what she wants, she says it explicitly right at the end of this episode. And it's what Lord Asriel wants her to do, be honest.

We're finally seeing her be intimate with her demon and herself here. It's crazy to see her be intimate with her demon when she just told Lyra a few episodes ago, you know, oh, they're nothing but trouble. They cause you nothing but trouble in the end, those demons, those pesky demons. And I wish she would just read the Secret Commonwealth. Chloe's so disappointed in me. I just like, every time I try to say something, I'm like, no. So Father MacPhail, emphasis on the fail,

claims that Coulter was a melty young woman in the face of Asriel. Fuck you. And shames her. And Coulter is like, so what sin is yours then? Since you're so free of sin. Are you saying you're like really top tier no sin lost greed no envy she nails him with she tells him that she's the best weapon he'll ever have your favorite weapon oh my god the best album by brand new i like seeing these

behind the scenes things with the magisterium it makes some of the more disjointed bits of the story flow, like the hair bomb eventually. I think they'll be able to flesh it out better and stronger because of this. A lot of the Coulter interaction this episode is going to do really well for her ending as well. The whole entire season of Amber Spyglass, I'm rereading it right now for the first time, and I feel really disconnected from what Coulter and Asriel do in the end from their ending so I think that if they play this out strong for both of them now with these made-up background scenes informing the audience of what they're doing even though this is what they're doing we just never have seen it I think it's going to be very effective

for the whole audience because otherwise I just I'm worried that I won't connect with it yeah i mean i'm fine with the way it's delivered i understand like it's a very fast-paced story it is they're young adult novels i get it and but i agree i think that they're doing a really good job of deepening all this to make it work for all that so i have a tinfoil theory not really theory but question of like i wonder if we'll see like those different manifestations of the seven homunculi aka deadly sins uh with the magisterium woven through like for father mcphail it's very very very obviously envy we see fra pavel depicted as lust with lord

boreal that was fra pavel right I mean, you could argue greed technically for all of them, maybe, but I think that the envy is, I guess, maybe it is a bit pervasive, because you could argue that Boreal certainly has it when it comes to Grumman, but I think it's a bit of envy and lust. I don't know. I'm really not sure how

Boreal feels about Grumman, and you have pride and wrath for Mrsrs coulter yeah absolutely fra pavel and boreal discuss grumman in the next scene pavel tells him that grumman discovered a knife in a tower surrounded by angels and that grumman's son would carry it but pavel says this makes no sense because grumman never had a son looks at camera right that's all boreal really needed to know because grumman may have no child but john perry sure fucking does yeah in that moment boreal's face is like god damn it god damn it they're like god damn it it is that kid after all this is obviously leading up to what we kind of thought it would right that we're gonna

have the knife probably by halfway through the season at this point. I'm saying like episode three, four latest. And I think this season really will end with Lyra missing in the cave and with John Perry dying. Like in the book? I think it's just going to be like, you'll see Lyra in the cave with Coulter's last shot. I think that makes sense for the end of a second act right because it's Lyra in the cave and away from them John Terry dying and I mean this is what Coleman does and then I'm gonna say something really hurtful here the death of like that hope with you know also how the second book ends with

Lee Scoresby. No I don't think that actually happens. I'm taking my headphones off. Chloe actually literally. This isn't a real thing. She literally moved her headphones. She's taking an enormous swig of wine. Are you done talking about the thing that doesn't happen? I'm done. Are you okay? Yeah, it's just an emotional thing for me.

Okay. I think you're right. Thank you. I think it'll be the penultimate episode of the season. Yes, when that thing happens that we won't discuss. Do you mean final or penultimate? No, I think you're right. Thank you. I think it'll be the penultimate episode of the season. Yes, when that thing happens that we won't discuss. Do you mean final or penultimate? No, I think it might be penultimate. I think it'll be episode seven, maybe. Why? To get his death.

Why? Because you have to have the stakes get higher and higher. And once he dies, then you know that Grumman goes on. Yeah. And Will gets to him in the last episode finally and then that's true you're right you're right it does have to be penultimate wait did you say i'm right yeah i say you're right a lot right i know i write that you're right chloe just loves hearing it i do well asriel is bent over his table at work, speaking of people that love to be right,

and Thorold approaches him. Thorold is worried for Lyra's amenities. He's like, I hope she has a toothbrush. And Asriel is not concerned. He's like, ah, there's a war that's going to be at our doorsteps within the next, like, five hours, so she can worry about her dental care another day. I have a bigger enemy to conquer he says as well and he asks thorold to watch over lyra he doesn't plan on saying goodbye to her

the camera focuses on the frame of the northern lights you can tell that azrael's not a great father because he doesn't give a shit about if she's gonna get cavities or not i also like that they gave thorold more bite in the show, you know, like, he just has a little more feist and speaks back to Lord Asriel as opposed to being like, stepped on all the time, which is how he is in the books. And I do, he sets out this photograph of Sidagaze in the clouds. And part of it is what you were saying at the beginning of this episode, that it's like scattered throughout. But I do kind of feel bad, like why? Thorold thorold's like oh are you just leaving me after all we've been through together like maybe thorold wanted to check out the new world too all right he's kind of an explorer too if he's made it all this way i don't think it's just abandonment like let thorold explore in a way it does remind

me of roger and lyra's kind of dynamic especially with the episode where Pan's like Lyra do you really think that he wants to come north with us? Did you ever ask him? Maybe he doesn't want to come with us. Yeah. I wonder if it's like an opposite situation to that. Like Asriel would never ask ever but it would be the opposite problem. That Thorold wants to go?

Yeah and he would never ask. Yeah. So I hope Thorold like secretly sneaks through. I hope Thorold, like, secretly sneaks through. I hope Thorold is actually Metatron. Oh my god. I've suddenly written a better book. Lyra bathes, and Roger enters the room.

He enters backwards with Salcilia in order to protect Lyra's modesty. Roger felt spooked by Asriel and asked Lyra, what does Lord Asriel want? Why did he look at me like an enormous piece of meat? Chloe has written here a 21 ounce medium rare T-bone, which yes, true, now I am hungry.

Lyra tells Roger that, you know, my talk with my dad, I thought it was going to be a heart to heart, didn't go so well earlier and roger says trouble parents are more trouble than they're worth not saying no he's like and that's why i don't have any we can just pretend to be orphans together forever and leave this place no parents attached this of course brings us back to a moment from earlier in the northern lights which i don't believe we really saw as much as obviously in this series adaptation it was in the golden compass but coulter makes pan turn away against lyra's nudity and it's very um in in the movie nicole

kidman who plays coulter in the movie is very good at this moment. I did like this when she's kind of like very evil, you know, and is like, turn around to pan like, yeah, it didn't happen on screen this time. But the quote from the book is, then a bath with thick scented foam, Mrs. Colter came into the bathroom to wash Lyra's hair. And she didn't rub and scrape like Mrs. Lonsdale either. She was gentle. Pantel amen watched with powerful curiosity until mrs coulter looked at him and he knew what she meant and turned away averting his eyes modestly from those feminine mysteries as the golden monkey was doing he had never had to look away from lyra before feminine mysteries feminine mysteries us bathing in our own dirt. I think it's an important note that Lyra's changing and becoming an adult. Obviously, the main trilogy ends with her demon settling and coming of age, blah, blah, blah.

But the story is confronting it here in the show in a different manner. It's showing Lyra and Roger's relationship changing, not only foreshadowing her future, but also moving us forward in the story. Totally the warning of innocence going to be lost soon. But not only in this, it also is a reference to Adam and Eve, because in this very chapter, and later in the episode with Asriel, we hear, God had told them not to eat the fruit, because they would die. Remember, they were naked in the garden. They were like children. Their demons took on any form they desired. But this is what happened. So yeah, tons of will foreshadowing, Lyra the Betrayer foreshadowing, making out with fruit foreshadowing, you name it.

Yeah, absolutely. So, puberty's weird, man. Yep. Feminine mysteries, learning to shave. Boreal is in the Perry household household scolding his lackey who again we refuse i refuse to learn his name but i've just seen it i have dust has settled upon me he's apparently done nothing but mess up the plan so far not untrue lord boreal is pissed sends him off on a this is your last chance kind of mission to go find Will and also

clean up Thomas' dead body Boreal's like, I like Thomas I ruined it I did figure out his name only because I'm like we should probably do it we're gonna be with him probably for at least half a season until he dies, maybe he'll die against someone

John Perry or Lee, I don't know maybe lord boreal maybe hopefully lord boreal but he does have a name it's detective inspector walters he put wait detective inspector yeah he's a detective inspector di walters he puts an alert out for will perry age 15 i thought that was was interesting that they had him age 15. Because I know they aged Lyra up a couple years. He's 12 in the books and Lyra's 11 when the

books start. And she's 13, I think, in this adaptation and he's 15. So there you go. Yeah. He's 15 and she's 13. Yeah, she ends the series at about 13 and I guess what? That means Will ends it at 14. Right, something like that. And I guess what that means Will ended at 14. Right.

So I guess it's going to be 16, 17 for him and 15 for her. Well, and that's why they filmed so close together. So the reason that they really did stock production the way they did is that they can't afford Daphne to grow up anymore. So they had to film right away. And they can take a little time because Amber Spyglass obviously covers a lot of time so does the second season so once you get to amber spyglass they need her to kind of age up a little bit yeah i mean both of them right you can't stop them growing and i think what i was also thinking of most recently is a big impetus for lyra going into the underworld and trying to figure out how is because she has she wants to make amends for roger and that

boy's gonna grow up that boy's not gonna be as like adorable for forever especially you know when we see him again in two seasons so yeah that's a big part too it's gonna have to be a shadow kid or or you know theoretically they might have already filmed it but i doubt they would because they want to think through those elements so anyway yes real life things lyra and roger talk and eat and play all night in a fort and their demons play too it's very sweet they talk about asriel roger suggests using the alethiometer to get a better read on him but lyra thinks the alethiometer would only tell her what it wants her to know Roger tells her he's not like her he would have never left before this but here they are changing each other's lives he says he's glad that Lyra changed his life and he gets her a mug likely and hopefully full of

chocolatel and they continue talking and eating in the warmth of a naphtha lamp. Bummer. It is a bummer. Dude, watching this scene, I was like, this is a total bummer. Yeah, I'm so gutted. God, that kid is dead. And the blanket fort was such a genius choice. It was so sweet

to show them playing and the demons playing and just innocence and innocence lost. Yeah, and I think that innocence is conveyed. They kept the fact that Roger doesn't want to know what's going to happen in the future with the Alethiometer, especially if dust, sin, is knowledge. So maybe that's why Roger has to die in this narrative symbolism, but he didn't. We love Roger. She doesn't just change his life she's gonna change his death

too when you know lou and lloyd hopefully doesn't look too different two seasons from now they started pre-prod it's fine the roarer blazes overhead and asriel checks in on the kids he wakes lyra and requests that she comes with him he tells her her what dust is, now that he has researched it in full. The Magisterium used to ignore it, but now they think that it's sin, and it falls and settles on adults, infecting them. And that it only settles when children go through puberty. They end up quoting Genesis 3-5, but with demons and authorities substituted in for a lot of the phrasing.

The serpent's deception. You will of the phrasing the serpent's deception you will not surely die the serpent told her for god knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like god knowing good and evil or good and dust yes so i do think it's interesting because in the books the quote is almost exactly the same as the original biblical verse but with demons substituted in as you as you said but in this version that they read aloud um they changed it out so that it would have authority instead of god um we we discussed this more in depth with the actual entire quotes in our final episode of the northern light slash golden compass book and you know we see it in an earlier scene right where mrs culture speaks with

father mcphail an earlier scene in this episode and she speaks with thorold but the show like has really just doubled down on using the term the authority in place of the term god whereas the books like don't shy away from it and they use them very interchangeably because yes philip pullman is making a critique on religion um on a meta aspect i think that like you know obviously bbc slash hbo this is their workaround right like in regards to trying to mitigate some of that religious backlash that they would receive it's not like an ironclad workaround because and it's still pretty obvious but i respect that they're like keeping to philip

pullman's vision of the books what it ends up doing within this context of the story and show though by making that choice it ends up highlighting i think a lot of interesting theological thoughts in terms of god as a more of a rigid set of rules and dogma. You and I spoke a few episodes, I think, about the lack of mention of Jesus within the show. And for the most part, the books, he's like mentioned twice in book three. And I think it's really interesting, especially like in terms of this Christmas season, because as many of you know, there are many different sects and interpretations of christianity as there are of like many other religions and some of those are

more focused on compassion whereas you know this version of the magisterium is more concerned with the idea of obedience and i think that's part of the choice right to center the story on children and the main as main characters and in the context of these complex parental relationships. It makes it really interesting because parents, of course, are associated with rules. And I think this differs very theologically from the ideas of redemption or salvation that are very, very present in the story itself, even though it's not within this interpretation of religion. Because I've seen some of our friends and a lot of people online every now and then

discuss this idea of the redemption arc. You're seeing people start questioning, like questioning, like why are so many stories focused on redemption arcs? And I don't think this is true for all of them, but I do think that there's something to be said that a lot of Western society's fixation on it

might have to do with the presence of, the overarching presence of christianity within the culture oh yeah absolutely that's a great comment on that when you think about it because how much catholic guilt do i have like how much yes i agree same yeah yeah so i don't know it's just interesting that different interpretation. Asriel tells her that there's worse of what's happening right now because the Magisterium is using this power and this authority to control people. Lyra then tells him she's seen people with their demons cut out and how empty they looked. their demons cut out and how empty they looked. She tells him about Marisa and her plans and how she stopped them from cutting her just in time as she didn't want Lyra to be damaged although of course Marisa is happy to damage others. Lyra lingers on the thought of Pan being cut away from

her. Asriel comments that the bond between demon and human is incredible and when the link is severed it provides a huge but a huge burst of energy he asks her what the most important question is which she gets right where is dust from you know we said this in the books but oh my god so many so many red flags yeah oh okay it i like that they bring this up because asrael's not phased really by lyra being like isn't it terrible and i was just like maybe i guess but knowledge though there are some really great shots though again in this lab of azrael and lyra talking and i'd have to watch it more closely but it feels like in some of his moments of honesty his face is more fully lit but as lyra

discusses this question and red flags happen and azrael's like maybe talking about that immense burst of energy it feels like i think his face is suddenly obscured in darkness like his intentions his dark intentions yes he looks at the photograms of the aurora with her and talks about crossing worlds he asks her basically to explore and find dust with him

much like what culture had been asking she says she's done her job in all of this and he tells her dust makes her

alethiometer work he knows the master didn't send her to give him the alethiometer and he says he's glad she

came anyway because he was hungry for a 21 ounce medium rare t-bone you see oh my god i'm just saying you're just saying he says you're he says you don't come from nothing lyra you're the product of something extraordinary so this is of course that third nod right to mrs coulter saying she could be extraordinary and will and his mother elaine as

well um i'm glad that they kept the everybody's special shindig in here yeah it ties back right as you said that nod to mrs coulter will lyra those earlier episodes were as you pointed out like lyra yearning to be extraordinary i think you tweeted about that that from our account that connection between lyra and will and you know it's not that lyra's the product of something extraordinary though thank you asriel for reminding us about the extraordinary sex that you had with marissa coulter lyra didn't need to know it but but actually though you know she's not the point is as mrs coulter phrases that she's like lyra herself is extraordinary as is will even though he's like no i'm not and it's like shut the fuck up will you are believe in yourself

i think they really did nail this scene though because they didn't go too far into exposition it wasn't just an info dump where we've had some moments this season that very much so teetered on the edge of info dump only an exposition overload and this didn't they i was actually very impressed with the scene with the amount of info they put into it but it didn't feel like we were slogging through it the chemistry between the actors was palpable everyone mixed well i'm just really grateful that it was concise there was a great amount of tie-in to the books it was cut some of the fat was cut but it was still the same message they did great at adapting this i agree and i think part of it

has to do with yeah cutting it away from that previous scene because then you get a different emotional beat right because when it was in the context of, you know, Lyra and Lord Asriel disagreeing, as it is in the books, this scene kind of feels a little adversarial. But here it feels like Lord Asriel's almost trying to make up for that. You get him being more sympathetic towards his daughter, and he almost feels... He approaches her very gently. It feels more fatherly and i like that delivery that they did there it's not the way i read the scene when i read the books but i think

i'm like no this is more right i like that even it wasn't even fraternal in the manner of it was more like he saw her as an equal almost um it felt like obviously not really like he respected her because you know he murders her best friend. No one says I disrespect you like murdering your best friend. Yeah, but I hope that no one ever murders my best friend because that would be awful. I agree. I don't even know who you're talking about. As the best friend, I'm talking about you.

That would be awful. Chloe wouldn't want this Chloe would never forgive you someone with the subtle knife over you you no please my children and they're like you don't have children ma'am and you're just like all of my podcast friends oh my god

so there's a really quick succession of events we do get some action happening in this episode as we go Lyra curls up in a blanket coulter watches the sky and then boreal goes back to stalking will yes in the words of some some people you know get a job get a job boreal holy shit get a new job at least that's true uh he discusses the tower of the angels with the detective, saying that the legends are true. Then his snek demon hisses lightly.

Good boy. Watching him. The best part of Oriol is his demon. I wanted to hear the snek voice. Like, what does it sound like? I get that the villains don't really have their except for Lord Asriel, they'll have their demons talking, but I want to hear this go like

He's not a villain, Eliana, he's a free thinker. I'm sorry. Oh god. He says that Lord Boreal will lead them. No, sorry. Lord Boreal says that Will will lead them to the knife and Snake's like,

yes, probably. I don't know. That's my voice for Snake. Do we have the Snake's name? No, but you're now hired. So I guess you are the demon. My performances. Everyone, give it up for His Dark Materials Season 2. The first voice actor announced for the season.

Eliana. Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. She'll also be voicing all the bears. Yeah, for all the bears. All of them. Sorry, Joe Tanter, you've been replaced. I'm just kidding. Give us your best roar, baby.

Hiss with me, sisters. Hiss. Honestly, though, they do a good job. You were saying it earlier of establishing in this final episode. It just ties in so well of how we're going to see all this in the next season. And props. They wove it in so well of how we're gonna see all this in the next season and props they wove it in so well i'm just great job team and it's gonna be so like surprising still because somehow will hasn't seen boreal we only there's no more thomas thank god so now we just have di detective inspector well i forgot his name. Walters?

Something. Whatever. Waskins? Watsons? Will rides a bus across town is the next action. And again, windows. Will's leaning on a window. I didn't think about it and you said that and then I looked at it and I was like

goddammit she's right. I'm always looking out for those windows. Airships begin to emerge in the star-spangled sky chloe wrote this lyra wakes wakes up and thorold is packing up all of their things he tells her that asriel has left and she realizes Roger's gone too. Asriel took him in the night. She realizes what he wants from him. Energy. I'm so glad it showed Lyra figuring that out on her own to Thorold. She didn't need Thorold to tell her why Roger's gone. It's important to show that Lyra is really clever and she can piece this stuff together. And I'm glad they're building it up. But at at the same time i'm hoping that she's not too refined when we start the season because

i just love that dynamic between her and will at the beginning she's that bratty wild princess feral girl you know what i mean she is a feral princess she's like what the fuck are canned food she's like fucking eggs what are eggs like you can cook yeah i guess roger always did the fucking cooking and bringing the food to her now that i think about it like in those first few episodes christ even here he's handing your chocolate all right she can't even reach her own mug christ how did this girl survive this useless how did she survive this long lyra's like pan should we go to the other world and Pan's like yeah it'll be great what you literally live with her Pan you know her

did she even bring a toothbrush Thorold had to think about this for her I saw someone on one of the subreddits that was like they're totally not a book reader they were like was anyone concerned for Lyra because she didn't bring a backpack that's so true, though.

Oh my god. Not even a rucksack, dude. She's just out there walking through the light-up room. Oh my god. So, something that I thought about, though, with Thorold, right, he's left with Lyra in his charge. He's given very explicit

orders, and it reminds me of the end of last episode where not end of last episode. It reminds me of that scene in the last episode, right? Where Seraphina and Lyra are like, we're going to watch over Lyra. A lot of people are now going to watch over her and her safety. They're doing a great job right now.

I mean, they do, theoretically. Like, Lys scores me at least feels guilt over not being able to protect Lyra. And he did try very hard. And I'm going to just say, Thorold didn't really try to stop her. He didn't really try that hard. No, not at all. He wanted to go to the other world.

Let Thorold go. Let Thorold have dreams. That's the thing. It's like people like Thorold and Roger in this story get no agency and no conviction of their own, right? They just have had to follow these leaders back and forth. And lyra is a decent person but asriel sucks and well what happened for roger yeah christ and thorold's been around forever i mean he has been a servant with asriel for 40 years yeah yeah he actually was the co-pilot when lyra was brought to jordan college fun fact since we're just balls out spoiling the fucking book that doesn't bother me knowing that i figured

it was more about knowing knowing about yeah about malcolm malcolm was hurtful this one doesn't bother me would you say it was a betrayal betrayal it was and you didn't mean it just as Lyra says I didn't Pan's like I didn't we didn't mean to and she's like it doesn't matter it doesn't matter Chloe

I ain't meant to hurt ya Eliana oh god Lyra yells for Yorick Yorick calls for his bears to assemble for battle. Get the fire hurlers. And Lyra climbs on. They run into the night. Asriel and Roger are under snowfall while Asriel is setting up a mobile lab. Soldiers dismount. Mrs. Coulter is among them. They enter the lab, but it's not empty because Thorold is here maybe this is protecting lyra somehow i don't know by like stalling them mrs coulter commands them to not touch anything for fear of booby traps and tells father mcphail to send the guards away she looks at asriel's research

and work and then realizes oh this is about dust no. Looks at Asriel's research and work. She ignores Father Macphail prattling in her ear. Understandable. She watches the roarer through a telescope, and then Thorold appears, knocking Father Macphail to the ground, and then aims his gun at Marissa. We are applauding it. Maybe that is, you know,

maybe that's what's meant to be Thorold, protecting Lyra. It is. The best, though, is that Marissa's like, don't be ridiculous. Yeah. She looks at him and then just goes, he doesn't have any lines, though, throughout this entire thing. It's very interesting. And Marisa's like, you would never harm me. And asks if Asriel's gone up the mountain.

His research shows some sort of energy release. And then she's like, oh, no, what is he trying to do with dust? But Thorold does not reveal lord asriel secrets i don't know if he even knows you know i think he has to know some of it because in my opinion asriel is just like ranting and raving to himself all day that's true you're right and then she says that asriel has always been so reckless and never treated any of us well you included to thorough and then she walks off damn she's good she is good i'm just saying like she's bad but she's good she's good at what she does which is being bad i think they're really capturing what this real situation though

is at hand and pullman says it best through asriel in the books he says the general ablation board your mother's gang clever of her to spot the chance of setting up her own power base but He says, all along. If it fails, they can pretend it was a renegade outfit which had never been properly licensed. So, A, that gives a little bit of backstory to how the Magisterium operates and how the faction of Marisa and Asriel having separate kind of entities and separate goals and ambitions in this kind of is a big deal because if Asriel won, what do you think the Magisterium would do? Hopefully be dead, um everyone knows though the hot water barisa is and she's literally in hot water as we was literally the only way out of this at this point even in the books yeah i guess it makes it so important in the end that they choose differently and she does have a few good points don't get me wrong about asriel herself

just saying yeah yeah she right. And along with that, and those good points, I kind of wonder if there's a little more to Mrs. Colter, like, not throwing Thorold to the wolves, as she says. She's like, I should throw you to the wolves. I don't think it's for Thorold's own benefit. I think it's because it gets Father Macphail

out of her way. I really think she was using that info. I mean, she was reading it she was reading the equation she said this has something to do with energy she understood how to read that and obviously we know she's clever so I do think that she was not throwing Thorold to the wolves for his own but like she was saying back down and she didn't he didn't get hurt that we know of no I think she's like whatever i'm gonna i think she kept to whatever she said her plan was and like you said she can understand those equations

because in the books they also asriel points out marissa coulter is the one who makes the basically as they think of it scientific discovery that dust that there's a connection between dust settling on on people during adolescence and she's the one that makes that connection so she she is very smart will scrolls through the news feed on his phone in a diner yeah a cop enters and will immediately gets anxious the cop is looking suspiciously at him he takes his moment and runs when the cop is preoccupied at the counter and he stalks off down the street so along with thorold having no lines in that last scene you know who else has no lines in this episode will he has no lines in this episode but i feel like

you can hardly notice because it's definitely intentionally done he's a quiet kid he's definitely acting the fuck out of this episode it's's doing so well. It's so focused on like Amir Wilson's like nonverbal acting. It hits so, so good. The nonverbal acting is so good this episode. So the next scene, it's back to hiking up the aggro crag for both Asriel and Roger. Yorick and Lyra dismount. The magisterium begins to rain bullets down. Also, I just want to say you kind of like see fires in this battle.

But Yorick explicitly said that there were fire hurlers and to get it set up. And quite frankly, I was looking forward to seeing it because we didn't get it in the movie. And I want bears with flamethrowers. And I think everyone wants this. I do too. But you know, the CGI was too. I get it. I get it. There you know, the CGI was too slow. I get it. I get it.

There's a budget, but also give me- But also it's like Jack Thorne, you literally talked about it and I deserve it. Yeah. I mean, they teased it. They teased it. They were right there from giving me bears with the flamethrowers. I want to hold Jack Thorne accountable for a lot of these things and this is one of them. Bears.

Yeah, we should tweet. We bear bears. Wait. Oh, you know, I do think I could see Ice Bear having a flamethrower. He has a lot of other weapons. He's really into weapons. I could see it. He has an axe.

Another person into weapons is Mrs. Coulter, who's standing in the back of departing armies who are armed, armed, armed with weapons. It's an awesome shot. Her outfit here is something to talk about the shoulders are so amped up and the bodies of the jacket is so tight and it's very much so like she's encasing herself right like she's wrapping herself she's keeping herself in she's keeping herself restrained within the confines of this outfit but the shoulders having all that bulk and fur and that heaviness are so

telling um it's almost like armor right it's like armor around her shoulders and her chest and I just thought it was such a cool outfit very sleek very tight yeah it is very much like armor that's true the music is so good in the scene also and I just want to plug, if you haven't checked it out a podcast called The Dust podcast and you can find them on Twitter as at The Dust Podcast we've talked about them before but they

also do breakdowns of the music in the series, Lorne Balfe the composer for His Dark Materials has given them a recommendation, Yorick then grabs Lyra, escaping the composer for his dark materials has given them a recommendation. Yorick then grabs Lyra escaping in an explosion of flame that maybe a, it's from the collapsing Zeppelin, but B maybe it's collapsing because of flamethrowers.

Fire. See, it was bad-ass. We wanted it. Yorick with Lyra on her, just like riding him out and like the flames behind them. It was fucking superhero shit. That was awesome.

It was great. That was great. Roger tries to escape, but he's put into Asriel's demon cages. Yorick brings Lyra to a bridge, and this time she must cross alone. I was surprised she didn't say the thing to herself that she has to master her own fear. Yeah. I thought that was going to come back. You're right. They have a different scene it's emotional and i guess they do say goodbye right in the books but i don't know

it felt like it was long and i was like we don't have time for this roger's gonna die yeah then we do get to asriel and roger because again ro Roger's gonna die. Asriel tells Roger that he's sorry that this is happening to him. Is he? There are casualties in war and this is a war. Yeah, I thought that was shitty. Yeah. It did remind me of this quote though. Aisha Tarium, who's the author of The Opposite of Indifference, she was the first Middle

Eastern editor for the Gulf to date. She has a quote, The cost of war is like an immeasurable tremor that knows no borders. It's shockwaves reverberating across the world, resulting in universal suffering. And that's kind of how I feel about this. All war costs money,

but Asriel's not wrong there, but he is wrong when he says to Roger, well, sorry, there's casualties. Like that's not, if you're war, if you're fighting a war and you're able to just say, well, you have to die so that everyone else can live, then your war is wrong. Yeah. That's a pretty shit excuse. He's like, I'm sorry this is happening to you.

It's the same Asriel that we saw in the first episode. Lyra is trying to climb up the mountain, but she's faltering. Pan flies ahead to scout what's there and gives her motivation that she needs. Roger's in a cage, Salcilia's next to him. They get close, but they don't make it in time. Lyra reaches the cage, holding Roger's hand through the mesh, and the blade comes down, severing Roger from Salcilia and causing a gigantic explosion. knocks lyra and pan back into the ground and asriel watches the light from the sky the soldiers and bears watching on as well in those moments before it all happens roger in the cage i feel kind of echoes lyra when she's

put in the box at bull vanguard and he says please don't do this and lyra will never forgive you it's kind of like lyra pleading with the workers about how mrs coulter wouldn't want this but azrael doesn't give a fuck not at all i think it's a great adaptation of this there are some aspects of the book that i wish remained the biggest one being that lyra gets to roger just in time to actually try to save him and here she just makes it to hold his hand and it's sad and tragic but in the books Pan fights Stalmaria and they almost get away but Asriel is strong and crazy and keeps Roger in the cage and it's so close Lyra's just about to free him like they just almost get their freedom but Stalmaria's like nope got your demon bitch and like grab salcilia and asriel shoves him back in and then boom and then she cradles him and i know that's picky but

i think what it really boils down to is of course it's the demons it was too much to have the demons do all that i get it but that being said holy shit that happened on the screen wow it was very sad too yeah i i also was a little taken aback that we didn't get that scene because i like that there's that moment of hope right it adds that like sort of dramatic tension of she's got him they're gonna make it they're gonna get away and i mean this was a more straightforward adaptation i understand why they had to do it it still worked it still worked really well oh yeah but i think you right. A lot of it did have to do with the demons and the budget for it. Coming back to the demons within in world like we only see this exchange right from Lyra's perspective in the books because, you know, she's with Roger and they're running away. And his demon is still back there. So we don't see celcile disappear but here it's confirmed and it kind of comes back to what they were saying in bull vanguard with their current iteration

of the intercision machine they're like oh there's lower mortality rates they die a lot less but they still sometimes die so it makes sense that azrael's machine which is like way more rudimentary is a lot less dependable i did like the way that they designed this machine i think that it was a really well executed and i love that you know it had to be worked by hand seeing that slow crawl of lord azrael pulling it down it gives you hope lyra's gonna make it back to what you were saying good call on the mortality rate for that machine in Bulvanger. Marisa's operation is funded by authority money. Like, she has the top of the line Cadillac of killing children machines, right? And Asriel has put this together in his fucking garage after drinking three Miller Lights.

Maybe five. Maybe Joffre gave him high life, you know? Oh my god. Well, I wish Joffre would give me the high life you know what i'm saying but marisa and asriel meet under the stars she tells him that the magisterium won't allow any of this but he tells her he's bringing the end of the magisterium and its oppression of knowledge he invites her to feel the sun of another world, to come with him and fight this war, create a new republic of heaven. Their demons embrace behind them. They kiss, they swoon themselves. He tells her to lie

about whatever she wants, but don't lie about your ambition, your work, or who you are. But she wants to protect Lyra in this world, she says. She wants her. she wants her with everything she has she tells him this isn't her journey it's his and she leaves and asriel and stal mario watch her go before they enter into the light yeah i wanted more of the swooning demons but even at that little snuggle i was like yeah that intimacy that toxicity that it kind of showed it showed like a delirious toxicity and they spend so little screen time together i guess it doesn't matter how good the chemistry came but for this one moment it worked well yeah i i agree um i think they they did a really good job of it this isn't like a nitpick it's a question i have so if it's the sun from another world shining

through the window and it comes through should the snow around it be melted probably questions anyway um they did tweak some of the lines and they lessened azriel's negging probably a good choice they made makes him more likable i guess as a free true well okay they made marissa wanting lyra much more explicit and the books like she asked after lyra and azra's like so you still want her even though she ran from you twice and i think it's a good choice in terms of the show making those character motivations clearer for the audience um also side note regarding the demons no one needs to know this but i'm gonna bring it up because we brought up cats last episode we're going to do it again

I watched this episode and seen literally two hours after watching cats the movie and on a rewatch I can't unthink it when I see those swinging demons like the nuzzling it was there it was just burned in my mind that was literally a choice you made

that was a creative choice that A.A. Cats made and a creative choice that I made for this podcast. Will walks down a crossroads, much like Eliana. As he walks, the police approach, so he turns the other way, running and jumping the fence, and he hides amidst shrubbery. Wow. Sorry if you can hear my stomach. Lyra wakes in the snow after being knocked out, and Mrs. Coulter walks by the caged body of Roger, lifeless in the mesh, just feet away from Lyra, who is hiding flat against the mountainside. Will sits huddled in the garden while Lyra climbs to Roger's body.

She holds his body in the light while Pan searches for Salcilia, who's gone, as Eliana mentioned. Lyra sobs, wondering how she could have gotten all of this so wrong pan consoles her but the ink's dry she didn't get to say sorry or goodbye roger's gone and worse it's her fault pan tells her maybe dust isn't bad like the adults are telling us they've done nothing but lie to us anyway we could find it we could protect it yes we gotta make sure they don't win that was a hopeful line pan and lyra say goodbye to roger lyra kisses him on the head oh it was this is

so sad there's some things that i love and some things that I wish were in the adapted dialogue. I don't hate it. It was a good scene. I'll start off with a negative, not too negative. Something that I didn't think about until watching this episode is the significance of Lyra crossing that bridge up the mountain to Asriel and Roger with just her and Pan. I'm sure I'm not the first person to talk about this.

Her own soul goes on the first person to talk about this like her own soul goes on the other side right to urge her forward and i think it's very important that yorick can't fit on this bridge because it forces lyra to go alone and she has to make this journey and confront lord asriel and save her friends through her own strength and it ends up being her own loss entirely and i think it's really meaningful when she has that dialogue with pan in the books about crossing the bridge to the stars another bridge alone right and she has to cross this tiny passage by herself and she realizes that yes she is alone but not alone as she has her own soul pan by her side and i think this is another one of those missed opportunities to

discuss the importance of demons to their humans because i didn't love that pan and lyra say they were always alone except for roger but they don't reinforce that celebration of the self by saying we're not alone because we have each other we are whole and one that's something i wish was there but i do love how lyra in this moment directly addresses roger here and she promises things to him i think it's a really beautiful choice and is the right emotional choice for the scene other than just like only discussing about him and how they failed him yeah and they did and she knows it that's probably one of the saddest parts too is that there's nothing she could have done differently really on her part like she was kind of pawning it in a way she you know showed up and the strings were already pulled and now she knows that she has to fix it and that's part of her character

her moral character right like she thinks that she has to fix this and make it right for them so yeah she has to atone for what she's done to roger it's in a way her own kind of personal redemption arc she feels while a cat appears by will next one of the most important cats in the world this is such a fun part of the episode he moves closer to it smiling and the cat walks through a gate he follows it okay it's not kerjava obviously yet but they might just decide to have this cat show back up several times and be kerjava and not actually die or disappear you know what i mean yeah or kerjava just looks like it yeah yeah i was so excited though about this cat and the coloring of it's perfect for a tabby it reminds me of this thing will says in

the story though in the subtle knife that he never had real friends just moxie and i feel that deeply as a kid don't get me started on my loneliness with cats but uh it made me really sad yeah the cats were always there for him libra holds pan in her hands and goes toward the light and then will squeezes through the gate like how skinny are you wasn't it wasn't a large gap, okay? It wasn't. And then it finds a window. Lots of prominence there. Did you notice that he puts his hand through,

and then he brings it back and he folds his fingers up, except for two of them? I didn't, but I did because you pointed it out to me. It's a great catch. It was nuts to see that. That made me go, because I'm one of those assholes that any small thing is important to me.

I'm like, do you think they meant it? So I'm over here punching my boyfriend in the arm just like, oh my god. I think he must have been directed to do something like that. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I'm sure they all are slapping about it.

They're all like, oh, oh, oh, do this and make sure to really, you know, zoom in on his fingers there. Yeah, but they deserve it. Yeah, they did. It was great. It was so good. Good. Also good. The editing between these two scenes, just like paralleling Will and Lyra in these moments.

Really great. I'm going to call out like worth noting that I think we're getting a fake out here, right? That will probably be more impactful for those who haven't read the books. And I like that. I do think the show is giving us this misdirection because we've seen Boreal go through this window multiple times into ours. Asriel opening this window here that huge burst of energy disrupted a lot of like the dust and the multiple worlds and how they all flow into each other so I think that maybe this window has shifted and no longer

opens into Lyra's world but into Sidogaze because it's the same window right? I mean either way your theory was right we ended it with them going through their separate windows I would say that to close the actual TV episode portion of this I want to close it with them going through their separate windows. I would say that to close the actual TV episode portion of this, I want to close it with a quote from a book.

You guys might have heard of it. It's called The Northern Lights or The Golden Compass, depending on where you are, depending on what world you're born in. So Lyra and her demon turned away from the world they were born in and looked toward the sun and walked into the sky goosebumps that ending gave me goosebumps it was beautiful it was so beautiful her with all that light that was so cool with that like light just like she's walking down a lit hallway yes but it was a lit hallway of the freaking sun of another world it was awesome the vibrating fibers of the window

and Will, that small smile that Will had when he got through the window he could be happy my son's gonna be happy for like a bit a bit I love this last line I'm bringing in this thing

that I had considered bringing up in a different episode, but I decided to save it for here. It's this thing, this kind of idea that I've been mulling of what I call the movable garden, referring to the Garden of Eden. And regarding Lyra's story, I think what we see is each time she's sort of forced out of a different garden of eden out of this moment of innocence and i think that's very reflective right of how it is when people grow up and i think this is something philip pullman has thought of and this is something that philip pullman has thought of and is directly referencing when he uses this Garden of Eden metaphor throughout his entire books, where, you know, first Lyra's place of innocence, her childhood, it's Jordan College, and then she's forced out of it. She chooses to leave that sort of cradle of the university.

And then she's with Egyptians, and then she's forced from this, the place in which she grew up, makes her way north, and then she's forced out of her own world she chooses to leave the world in which she was born in and that's a place of her own childhood and innocence as well and then she goes on this journey throughout multiple worlds right she goes with will and then eventually she has to leave all these other worlds she has to leave will which becomes another place of joy of her happiness and it's them in this garden of where the malefa live this very pure seeming world uh where things seem so simple and that becomes its own garden of eden as well and where they eat the fruit and

taste of it with one another and then they find out and learn from zenathia? Xenathia? Maybe I got this name right. Going off the top of my head. And then they're forced out of that and have to leave one another and that sort of innocence and joy is lost as well. And I think that this is supposed to be that adulthood, right? I'm sure I'm not the first person to think about this, but there's that inability to return to it. And that's exactly what happens at the end of the books when all of the windows are closed and they must learn to move forward with their lives. They can no longer return to the Garden of Eden. Even though Lyra returns to Jordan College, it's not the same college because she's no longer a child. The garden of eden and that time is only a memory

and that's why you have that last the very last chapter of the last book being like the botanical garden the botanic garden where she and will can visit every now and then sit on a bench with one another and they can visit that place they can visit the place in which they were with one another you can sometimes through your memories right that imagination come back to your childhood and innocence but you can never truly ever return to it and i think that's something that i love about these books and that's why this is so impactful as lot and this line intentional they turned away from the world they were born in yeah they're rejecting that world that home

yes and of course in the end they have to go back to that world they're forced to go accept that world and to grow up yes and i mean you see it in so many fantasy series in different ways right there's narnia there's harry potter um you got what the room of requirement in harry potter or hogwarts in general being a safe place that's no longer safe. Yeah. After a while, it was always there's no place safer than there or green gods. Well, no way. And you even see it with, you know, Lord of the Rings in the Shire.

I'm not a huge Lord of the Rings reader, but there is a line in Return of the King where Sam and Frodo talk and Frodo says, Sam, it's I can't come back. It's ruined for me now like there's too much pain too much trauma for me to be here anymore for me to remain here and it's a little different obviously for Lyra she has to go back but how do you go back after seeing all that you can't right you you just learn to live and grow move forward and that's what they do and that's something we'll probably discuss more in these lantern slides, which speak to those in those vignettes that we get of their life after. But I mean, as you pointed out, it's in a bunch of these series. And I think that's because this is a universal feeling.

Yeah, absolutely. It's a very strong theme for not only a more youth kind of fiction, which as we know, Pullman didn't really write these as youth. It was marketed as such, but it does have a youth feel. Your protagonist is a youth. Youth. It's very different. Youth.

Hello, fellow youths. I just don't get them. I just don't get the youths. But it's true. It's something that's very strong. And I think we're going to see it played a lot more in Subtle Knife as a lot of this magic ramps up in season two of His Dark Materials. And if you guys are really in between that weight obviously that's going to carry on in 2020. Yeah, I really can't wait for you guys to meet our son Will in full because right now you've just seen some flashes of him. You know he's a good boy, but I think you guys are really going to love him.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to whenever we get the announcement for season two of His Dark Materials. I'm already itching for it. Very itchy. Very itchy. Well, that sounds weird. Feminine mysteries. Thank you so much for listening this whole season with us, you guys. It was new for us to cover this show. You know, we've been covering His Dark Materials in the books now. And I think that we know what works what doesn't work i think the next book is going to be really fun for us to cover and we really can't wait for season two to come out yeah i've been so pleased with like oh there's been a lot of surprises even within the show even though we've know the story and i'm excited and again thank you everyone for joining us with it and for we've learned a lot from people writing in

sharing their thoughts with us so yeah never stop doing that if you guys have anything you want to share with us you can always tweet it to us at girls god canon c-a-n-o-n feel free to send us a direct message or a tweet discussing the season finale now that i think spoiler kind of uh clauses are being lifted on the internet. And make sure you send us an email if you want to talk about it there too, if you don't feel comfortable tweeting it. GirlsGoneCanon at gmail.com. Yes, you can find us on any of these various podcast platforms. For example, there's iTunes, Google Play, Podbean, Spotify, Stitcher, Acast, anything else that anyone else

has decided to put us on. Yeah, absolutely. We keep showing up with our RSS feed places. I love it. Of course, don't forget about our December patron episode that will be up here at the end of the month. For all patrons $5 and up, we are going to be covering the lantern slides that appear in the end of all three of the novels in the main trilogy for his dark materials okay um and of course thank you again everyone for joining us on this journey i've been one of your hosts aliana and i've been another one of your hosts chloe see y'all on the other side of the the window of the year also the window do do do do do

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