God Awful Movies - 411: Witnesses

Episode Date: July 4, 2023

This week, Dan Beecher joins us for an atheist review of Witnesses, the story of the three witnesses who saw the gold plates the Book of Mormonism was based on (in a vision), and the story of how they never publicly admitted they were lying and therefore must have been telling the truth. About the vision. Of the angel. With the plates. About Native American Jews whose skin changed color because of their sin. --- Hear more from Dan on Thank God I’m Atheist and Data Over Dogma If you’d like to make a per episode donation and get monthly bonus episodes, please check us out on Patreon: http://patreon.com/godawful Check out our other shows, The Scathing Atheist, The Skepticrat, Citation Needed, and D&D Minus. Our theme music is written and performed by Ryan Slotnick of Evil Giraffes on Mars. If you’d like to hear more, check out their Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/EvilGiraffesOnMars/?fref=ts All our other music was written and performed by Morgan Clarke. To hear more from him, check him out here: https://www.morganclarkemusic.com/

Yeah, and then the miracle happens and brings us. Right, then Willem gets to see the sailboat. Yeah. And to be clear, right, if we were to accept Martin's narrative, the rest of Martin's narrative where he loses his faith is fucking insane. Right. If I saw an angel right now in the middle of this podcast, I'd stop podcasting. I would make the almost done five minutes hand gesture and keep going.

Yes. Who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be who will be but sitting 900 miles to my northeast is my bad friend Eli Bostic, Eli. How are you doing this fine afternoon, sir? Mom and mom and mom finally it's been way too long. Oh, I missed it. I thought you guys had made it out. I thought you were going to be you were clear of it, but they keep pulling you back. Yeah, right, right. Justin, you think you're out. And that voice you just heard, of course, that is the co-host of Thank God.

I'm atheist and the new podcast data overdog. My Dan Beecher Dan, welcome back, sir. Hey, thanks so much for having me. It's been a minute. of course, that is the co-host of thank God I'm atheist and the new podcast data over dogma. Dan, beat your Dan. Welcome back, sir. Hey, thanks so much for having me. It's been a minute. I'm very happy to be back. Yeah, yeah.

It's been way too long. Now, for those who don't listen to Skating Atheists who maybe didn't hear the interview that you did on there, can you tell us really briefly about your new podcast data over dogma, what that is and what that's all about. It's just a really cool one. I really think our listeners probably get a lot out of it. Yeah, thanks, man. I really like it too, not because of anything I'm doing,

but my co-host, Dan McClellan, is an astoundingly knowledgeable Bible scholar, got advanced degrees from Oxford and Exeter University, and is just so knowledgeable about everything to do with the Bible. So we decided to get together and do a podcast that we, as the name suggests, data over dogma where it's not devotional, it's not there to, you know, boost anybody's spirit or anything.

We're just there talking about what we know about the Bible, what it actually says, you know, he's able to translate from the original Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic. And it's just a really fascinating look at a book that is regardless of what your actual view on that book is, it's influential. So it's good. It's good to have the actual like knowledge about it. Yeah, it's actually because like I'm not the, I hate the fucking Bible. I read it like I hate read the Bible.

Right. And he makes me interested in it. That's pretty impressive. So, okay. So with that out of the way and with the reminder, of course, that you can check that show out by following the links in the show notes. Damn, tell us what will be breaking down today? We watched witnesses. It's the story of three men who never saw the things they saw and then bravely never denied that they didn't not see them. It's now you don't see it, now you don't. What simpler form of the truth there, and Eli, how bad was this movie. Well, if you love a historical Mormon films about Twunk Joseph Smith, but they don't include enough absolutely damning details about what a con man he was, you will

love this movie. And can I say I do. Right. I do love this. Yeah. Yeah. This one is way more open about the obvious con shit than these stories usually are, but yeah, yeah, look we have a pattern to Mormon movie month, all right? We start you with a nice piece of a historical fiction, right? It's the Mormons being like and then Joseph Smith fell down a hill into an 11-year-old girl He had no choice Then we get with the common areas in the missionary move, but I enjoyed this one because the movie just kept having to pause and go, I'm sorry, do we want to put that in? He didn't, okay, so he didn't

actually pay them back. No, he said it's true that he didn't pay them back. But that's because one guy wanted all of the money. I'll get to it. I can't that moment. I can't. It's so amazing. Oh, man. So is there anything you guys wanted to nominate?

This one for being the best at being the worst at? Well, I mean, Eli was kind of hinting at it for me, but mine is just best worse. Who is this movie for? Me, me, Dan. It's for Eli. Literally, they made a movie for Eli. I didn't, I never saw it coming from the Mormons, but the thing is that rank and file Mormons

do not know this story. They only know like the bare bones, white washed version of this story. You know, three good men witnessed the golden plates. That's it. But then the internet happened and now word is getting out about like the deeply problematic stuff.

So I guess the filmmakers, they literally break their backs trying to get out in front of all that shit. And even though they're trying to provide like plausible cover for the disturbing bits, all they're really doing is making ignorant Mormons aware of how messed up their history actually is. the disturbing bits. All they're really doing is making ignorant Mormons aware of how messed up their history actually is.

So yeah, the Mormons who are looking for a heartwarming devotional film are gonna hate it. And it sure as fuck isn't gonna convince any non-Mormons to join up, so who the fuck is it for? That's the thing is the arguments are so fucking weak. It's like, well, you're certainly not convincing anyone with that. No. It would be, well, you're certainly not convincing anyone with that. No.

It would be like if they rebooted the 10 commandments and Moses didn't, but the see, but he was like, but you'll notice this area here is a lot more shallow. So what do you say? Look, it only comes up to my knees. We can wait. That's fine. We'll wait a slap who's on for a slap. Sandbar.

So I was okay. So I'm going to go with best worst witnesses. The name of the movie is witnesses. It's the story of the three witnesses at the very beginning of the book of Mormon. There's a thing that says, you know, the good job. Joseph Smith received these three plates and three people. Other people saw the plates. Here are their signatures or whatever proving that it was wrong.

Now what that doesn't tell you in the introduction is they saw him spiritually. It was in a vision. They had a vision all together in the force like not like he, he like unveiled them and here they are in this box here. Hold those or whatever. And so like everything that they do in this movie is to try to convince you know, these were like reputable guys. These guys really like they, they absolutely saw this shit and everything that they actually tell you in the movie. It's like, well, yeah, these guys are obviously fucking lying. No.

To put it this way, if you claim to be a witness to a crime and then when the police were interviewing you, you said, well, I had a vision of him stealing the candy by over the seven and 11. That's illegal. That's how much over the seven 11. That's illegal. That's not a witness. It is. It's literal. There's a term. It's called bearing false witness, which I'm guessing they couldn't get the rights to. Right. Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah. And I'm going to go with best worst, Martin Harris. Now,

look, I know this is mostly for the ex-mos listening to this podcast, but if you don this movie. Martin Harris from this movie is like, I mean, even this movie does him some favors, but he's still, yeah, he's still the gomer pile of the movie. Absolutely. If someone was like, Hey, I want you to roast Martin Harris and vulgarity for charity this year, I would ignore it because it didn't feel good. Alright, well, apparently there's no such fucking thing as a short Mormon movie. So we're going to take a minute to warm up to this one, but we'll be back in a flash

with all the a historical bullshit of witnesses. Alright, everyone. Welcome to the first writers meeting for witnesses. Now, as you know, thanks to the Fairness and Mormon movies act, which was deceptively passed through the Utah State legislature, disguised as a sign up for a potluck, we now have to allow an atheist in our writer's room. Oh, man, I was going to bring funeral potatoes. Me too. Guys, guys, we were all going to bring funeral potatoes.

They're awesome and they almost make Mormonism worth it. But yeah, anyways, this is no illusions. He's our atheist writer. Hey guys. I saw him smoking weed out of an apple outside. No, B. So I was smoking weed and eating an apple. I'm an adult. Okay.

Anyway, I thought we'd begin our movie with Joseph secreting the plates away in the night and avoiding those who tried to rob him. You mean the plates that would have weighed 200 pounds? We don't know how much they weighed. But he described the dimensions and material of the plate. So like at minimum, we're talking 140 pounds. Okay.

So he's running through the woods with 140 pounds. And then these bad guys, former accomplices. Sorry. What? They, former accomplices. Uh, sorry. What? They were his accomplices. They had conned people out of money together, and he stiffed them. Oh, I mean, that's what they said.

Well, I, them and the victims who also testified that Joseph and those exact men had conned them by claiming they had ancient gold on their property, they could dig up. Guys, guys, we're less than a line into the movie. This is gonna take forever. I mean, or you guys could just tell the truth, right, and let your audience decide.

You can put cheetos instead of breadcrumbs on the top of funeral potatoes. Oh, that sounds so good. They're really good. Yeah, actually, that does sound good. Oh really are, they're really good. Yeah, actually that, no, that does sound good. Oh my heck, now I want a funeral. Hey podcast listener, I'm Eli Posnik. I'm Dan Beacher. And I'm Noah Luzians.

You know, we had a lot of fun on this week's introductory sketch, but funeral potatoes are no joke. That's right Noah. Sure, they're delicious mountains of cheesy heaven, but did you know a single scoop of funeral potatoes contained 850,000 calories? It's true, they do. But Dan, they're so flavorful and delicious,

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Not at all. Hello, Fresh. Gets that you want options when it comes to what to make for dinner. Not just the same old thing all the time. That's why they offer 40 recipes to choose from every single week. So you'll never get bored and can always find something new to try and love. And it's true. Hello fresh, son of Subox, try when they became a sponsor. The food was easy to cook, unpacked in seconds. It was never boring. That's why I know illusions

personally endorse Hello fresh. All right, guys. I'm sold. Where do I sign up? Just go to HelloFresh.com slash awful 50 and use code awful 50 for 50% off plus free shipping. So I go to HelloFresh.com slash awful 50 and use code awful 50 for 50% off plus free shipping. That's right. Hello fresh because man cannot live on funeral potatoes alone. I, I wish I could though. Oh, have you ever had them with corn? Daniel, I will kill everyone you love. Oh, wow, somebody's mad, he can't eat the kinds with bacon. Every last person.

Wait, they make them with bacon? They do, they make the bacon. It's the bottom layer and they fry, that's so good. I don't like potatoes. And we're back for the breakdown and we're going to open up on a series of like ever more Mormon production logos. We've been new fight historical preservation society. White and delight some pictures. Yeah, it's funny because at one point there was a black background. We had not had any movie yet.

And it came up with produced by Russell D. Richens, which is such a Mormon name. My Mormon PTSD was kicking in already. We had that in the movie. Right. Yeah. So the movie is that we get that. And then there's a movie like, what's the point of time guy lied? That's the plot.

They think they get up so well. They're like, well, okay, Joseph Smith existed. Yeah, so it's verifiably plates. So yeah, this is going to be the story of the folks who actually Astrix saw Astrix, the plates Astrix. Hence the name witnesses. Yeah. So we cut to Independence, Missouri.

It's 1833 and it's time for some good old Mormon Linchon. The first spoken lines because the rest of the stuff was just like written on screen or whatever. The first spoken line in the movie, I shit you not, is some henchman guy going, get him boys. Which is amazing. I literally paused the movie a half second in before that line was even spoken because it was literally in that half second, the three men with torches were already wildly over

acting. Oh yeah. Oh my god. Like literally one second in and I can tell this is going to be, like, they were like chorus members from a community theater production of Oklahoma trying to get noticed. Right. And I should point out that independence Missouri is a mandatory part of any a historical film because it was the one time Mormons were kind of sort of oppressed so they can never ever fucking shut up. Well, you know, they'd go in and fuck everybody's daughters until they got quote unquote

oppressed. Yeah, but yeah, so they're torching the Mormon settlement. They're scaring the Mormons. We cut to David Whitmer. He's going to be a major character. He's one of the three witnesses. We cut to David Whitmer. There's this great moment where his wife is like, I'm scared David and he's like, I'm

here for you. And then they burst into his house and immediately drag him out. And he's like, I'm not here for you anymore. I just love the moment. Like she knows he's there. How is it so comforting for him to say, I'm here. I'm right here. Yeah. I know you're there. I'm still very frightened of the mob outside. David. Yeah, you were, you were there when I said it in the first place. And if you're wondering, by the way, David Whitmer is the uh, steward Sutcliffe of Mormonism, right? Like not even the four member Beatles. He's the fifth member of the Beatles. Right. That was like, they're at two jam sessions. And don't worry, this entire film will be focused on the fact

that for the rest of his life, he was like, I ain't no liar. Yeah, right, right. The reason David Whitmer is at the center of this film, and this is important is because David Whitmer was by far the most interviewed of the witnesses of the three witnesses. He would talk to anyone who would talk to him about it. Yes. So they drag him to the center of town, along with a bunch of other people, put a bunch of people on stage and they go, which are you? Is David Whitmer? Which you think they would have bothered to

figure that out before they grabbed five randos from the town. Yeah. Right. Also, if you're hoping for this, I am Spartacus moment. Nope. Everyone immediately looks at David and he's like, you know, you mother fuckers I thought maybe there was going to be a unity on the stage, but no, they're all just there. I can see you shaking your head my way guys. So and so the bag I go to David Whitmer and he's like, Did you really see the gold plates tell me no, and I won't kill you. You wouldn't die for a lie. Would you like the apologetic? It is funny.

You know, I understand that Mormons love to be oppressed. That's their favorite narrative in the whole universe, but a firing squad seems a bit much. Yeah. Right. But that's this movie's open again, but they're really, they're like, you know, David Whitmer, even when he thought he would die, if he's, if he didn't just admit it was a lie, he still told the truth that he had actually seen the plates, but he didn't like David Whitmer

lived into his 80s. Right. Right. Wow. Spoilers for the next scene of the movie. No. Wow. Also, by the way, if anyone ever puts a gun to your head and says, say this or I'll kill you,

it should be an easy call. Yep. I don't care what you're like, your God will forgive you. That should always just be an easy call. Okay, I'll say the thing you want me to say. That's fine. It seems fair.

And if your God wouldn't forgive you, he's not your God. That's a shit God. He's pretty shitty God. Yeah. You need a better God. You deserve a better God. So, yeah, so we leave that on the cliffhanger.

We'll catch back up to that in about an hour and a half, but first we're going to get the title screen, along with the signature of the said witnesses scrolling all its way on the screen, right? Okay, guys, be honest. Look into your hearts. Do you think they made Martin Harris' signature the slowest and the sloppiest as a dig? Or do you think that's... No.

Historically accurate because it's two signatures like, he's the chisdebam and then Martin says just like a toddler. It might as well be in crang, Justin Martin. And how is? Except that they needed to fill time because they opted to go with the Mormon tradition of music that's a hymn sung 10 times too slowly. Oh, God.

During this opening sequence, I accidentally muted my computer for a second. I was just like, Oh, that's nice Totally an accident. Yeah, we all believe that for sure. It comes up. It's like based on a true story We all write our notes. No, fuck it isn't you fucking lot I mean it's based I mean there's some truth to some of it. I'm pretty sure. Some of these people existed.

So yeah, so that we cut to Richmond, Missouri. It's 1881, 37 years after the martyrdom asterisk of Joe Smith. Yeah, martyrdom, right. He was martyred. I remember in church them talking, like a guy literally correcting me and saying, oh, no, he wasn't murdered, he was martyred. Yeah. As if that was like, you know,

was a distinction without a difference. Thank you so much. You know, to be fair, martyred rolls off the tongue better than shot to death trying to use the magic power. He didn't have. I think it's important that we all acknowledge that Joseph Smith's last words were

Actually, you've got it a little bit wrong because as this movie weirdly acknowledges though He was in a jail when he was shot. He did have a gun. Yeah, that someone had He did have a gun this true and he didled in there. Yeah, he had a gun. That's true. And he did. He didn't, he didn't, he wasn't using magic powers. He was literally using a weapon. I don't think Eli was accusing him of actually using that. No, because he did the shield. It's fine. It's fine. So yeah, he did. He did. He did the simple. He did the handstand. He didn't have a gun. Yeah. All right. So we get this dude, this reporter guy that's tracking down. Dato for dogma.

How dare you? So we get this character. This is Edwin Kelly. He's a reporter and he's tracking down David Whitmer. He's going to frame the whole movie for us. It's all going to be an interview with David Whitmer, right? Oh my God. And he starts off a tradition in this movie that doesn't really stop, which is

act walking. He, every actor in his new movie needs you to know that every fiber of their being is acting at all moments. Yes. And what's really funny is that he comes in. He's got this bowler hat and whatever. It's literally just hi, I'm Charlie Chaplin with the evening bugle. Yeah. It's the weirdest thing in the, I don't, yeah, it was very strange. Right. And he finds David Whitmer and he's like, you know, I'm from the newspaper and David Whitmer is like, get the fuck out of here.

I don't want to talk to you. Again, David Whitmer would talk to literally anyone he could hold down about this shit throughout his life famously, right, but they have to have the whole like, but will he, but won't he? Well, and to be clear, they need to introduce the fact that David Whitmer was actually interviewed several times during his life by people who were like, yeah, he's full of shit, his story is full of holds. Like, he keeps making shit up and getting shit wrong. and we have to correct him on the record. So the way they introduce themselves is David Whitmer being like, I don't know that other reporter sure was Jewish and he's like, no, I'm not. I promise I'm extra gullible.

Yeah, right, right. So but he kicks a guy out and then the reporter starts to leave, but then Whitmer takes out his box of exposition cues and decides to do a movie after all, right? Oh my God. The reporter had asked him, did you really see an angel and I was so hoping the Whitmer was going to open the box and an angel was going to come out. No dice. Yeah, no, instead he pulls out a letter, he starts reading it. It's the letters like you have three days to get the fuck out. Or I'm sorry. Yeah, three days to get the fuck out. It was so weird what the fuck was with the cockney accent. I don't know. It's supposed to be a more man. And it comes back later in the movie. I just just ran. There's no explanation ever. But suddenly it's like, oh no, you're going to you, you definitely haven't made it into this. You're you're out of all religion. That's

for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That guy was like talking to his agent. He was like, no, I know it's only one line, but trust me, no small parts. You know what I'm saying? I will be remembered. Yeah. So, but then he calls back to reporter guy's like, come on back reporter guy. It's Mormon movie month after all. Right. So we cut to Palmyra, New York. It's 1827. We see this actor right away. I'm like, wow, he's significantly better looking than any of the other actors we've seen. I bet that's Joseph Smith. Okay. If Mormon movie month has given us anything, it is Mormons getting more and more confident over time

at how much they can lie about how Joseph Smith will guess. Right, because when we started doing the early A historical films, you know, they'd clean up a little bit of the ad, me, they'd make him the same height as everyone else, but now he's just fucking Jim Kovizel.

Yeah. Fucking descending down from the clowns, chop down trees with his jawline. I think this may have been our cutest Joseph Smith. Oh, for sure. I think he may have been the best looking the twonkeyest. And he starts another tradition in this movie, which is the anachronistic haircut because he's gone full Bieber. Yeah.

Yes. For sure. It's weird. I wonder what Paul made. They had an 18, whatever the fuck. Right. It was so fun. And if you look at pictures of the three witnesses, they have some wackadoodle hair.

So it's very sad that we didn't get that much. If they had given me that much historical accuracy, I would have been on board for this movie, the entire way. I might have been a Mormon. I'll tell you what, I don't care how you cut this guy's hair. I'd still fuck him. So yeah, so, but now this is the scene where Joseph Smith gets the plates and he has to get it home, but all the brigands are waiting for him along the way. So this is like a like opening action sequence of Mormonism, right?

And we mentioned it in the opening sketch, but it is worth pointing out that at minimum these plates are 140 pounds, because Joseph couldn't stop lying about their dimensions. And so if they were actually gold, they would be again, at least 140 pounds probably closer to 200. And Joseph Smith had a lifelong limp, which they got rid of for this movie. I like to write. So makes it a lot easier. So him fucking back flipping around with these plates, we make it zero seconds into the backstory of this movie before we're like, and there's the lie. Yeah.

Well, and I love the fact that he has, he has retrieving these plates from, you know, listen, when you're the Lord's anointed and you're hiding the most precious treasure the world has ever known, probably just under some bark is. Under some bark. Yeah, really. Obviously. It's not like gold glints and is visible. And Eli is barely fucking exaggerating when he says he back flips his way around

with these fucking things. This is like a full, this is like the, their version of the opening of Casino Royale. Oh yeah. Right? The parkour scene or whatever. It's forest parkour all the way.

He is, he is bouncing off a tree, he's clonkin' dudes on the head. He is, and he's an ninja. He keeps, like, he's fucking Batman at a certain point. Yes. He's popping up where he, yeah, he was over there and now he's over here. Yeah.

Him and an angel do like an arm swing kick onto guys his faces Smoke bomb why what would he actually knocks one motherfucker out with the golden plates? I was like that would be like having a scene in a Jesus movie where he starts swinging the cross around like Jackie Chan with the ladder And for a strike or something what the fuck are you guys doing come on? Oh, there were two Roman guards after Jesus got done with them So yeah, so he knocks out the bad guys He checks away. Sure. He didn't get any brigand to blood on the on the gold plays. He didn't and

Meanwhile, we cut back to the to the interview for a second. And the interviewers go and like, yeah, man, I thought you were going to tell me a story about you seeing an angel when you started at six years earlier with a guy in a karate fight. So Joseph Smith gets home. He gets back to the Smith household. Everybody's waiting. He stumbles in and he's all beat up and stuff because of the, you know, the action sequence on the way in and he goes, he says, he's got this bundle. It's all wrapped up in a cloth and he's like, these are golden plates. And before you ask, no, you cannot visually verify that fact.

I promise God. Well, what I think is so funny about this scene is it's a series of people like getting drawn in like I poo the monkey in the big red stone in the beginning of Aladdin and Joseph has to be like no, but the entire Smith family were con men, right? The real story of this is Joe got home and he was like, I'm telling everyone those are gold plates. Don't fuck around with it, okay? I had to run so far with that thing that wasn't made at gold because I Don't fuck around with it. Okay. Oh, God. I had to run so far with that thing that wasn't made a gold because I couldn't have done a Xavalyp. He's got this. He's got this very, it's like basically a muslin like hobo sack filled with something rectangular. Yeah. And that, that little prop of a muslin sack with a rectangular contents

It makes it so much in this movie which makes the contention of the movie so much Weirder that these these plates keep moving around and we keep seeing them But no one's allowed to just lift the the fabric a little bit right right even the people who are allowed to see them are never allowed to do that. Right. Yeah. You sympathize with Mormon kids thinking soaking isn't sex when you hear that this is the origin of their religion. I'm like, yeah.

I think if my faith started with you can touch the outside of the bag, I too would think the dick is in the vagina, but someone's jumping on the bed counts. Like I can. Well, but even the movie has, but that's the thing. The movie keeps acknowledging this shit, right? Because we back away from this scene at the Smith household for the reporter to say to David Whitmer, okay, why does this sound exactly like it would sound if it was a lot, right?

I just love, I love that Whitmer, the whole time the reporters there is randomly whittling up this wooden box. Yeah. I, there's just, I, I just get such a kick out of him just, it's his precious wooden box that holds his like most precious items we find out later. Mm-hmm. And as he's talking to the reporter, he's just like sort of randomly like just carving into it. Hoking at it. Yeah, exactly. Well, he's like desperately trying to get the reporter, he's just like sort of randomly like just carving into it.

Oh, can add it. Yeah, exactly. Well, he's like desperately trying to get the reporter to say, so what's in the box? Right. Yes. Exactly. So we cut back to the flashback and like everyone is now gathering because they've heard about the gold plates, but Joseph won't show anybody where they are and that the narrators

like, yeah, no, he had to constantly move the plates around like anytime You would look in the place that he said that they were it would turn out that he had just moved in that morning to a different place So yeah, they moved a lot The actual line that he says is people came from every creak and hollow to see the plates Which is why early Mormonism was populated mainly by trolls and hobbits Mormonism was populated mainly by trolls and hobbits. Yeah. Which maybe explains Martin Harris's chin beer. I was just about to ask which Martin Harris was.

Yeah. This is where we meet Martin Harris. Martin Harris is there to help Joseph Smith. And he's like, man, you want me to help you hide your place, but I'm not even allowed to see him. He's like, no, you are allowed to only hold the box and verify that there is weight in it. He's like, well, there's really only one or two ways to have weight in a box and gold plates is one of them. So I believe he picks up the box and he goes, well, would have to be either lead or gold. And

I'm like, ah, the famously intuitive fucking metallurgist, Martin, he's a signed off on this. mergist Martin Not only that he picks it up with such ease They like oh no that's either led or gold or feathers or something. I don't know There's a pound of feathers or a pound of baseballs in here I don't know which it is and they have this weird met a moment where he's like I mean, I don't know whether to believe you but your family all tells the same story and Joseph Smith is like we rehearsed it We are a bunch of known con people and he's like what and he's like, I mean, I don't know whether to believe you, but your family all tells the same story. And Joseph Smith is like, we rehearsed it. We are a bunch of known con people. And he's like, what?

And he's like, sorry, I'm doing a, I'm doing a swooch out of the dude. They do. But I'm not the one. Right. Well, but that's this thing. Why would Martin Harris? So nobody doubts that the story. Joseph Smith came in with an unidentified bundle of shit under his arm, right?

Nobody's denying it. But Martin Harris is like, wow, it's amazing how consistent everyone's account of you coming in with an unidentified bundle of shit under your arm is. As though it's not a lie at all. Right? Why are you talking to Martin? It's so funny because every line of this movie up to this point and beyond was written to try and ward off some version of a criticism.

Yep. It's, I don't, the whole movie is so fucking defensive. I don't know how you write a movie from the defensive position, but it's apparently possible. Like this. Yeah, this is an example. Yeah. So, okay.

And then we get like old, timey David Whitmer. We have to introduce him to the story. He wants to go see Oliver Cowdery, another character we have and introduce to the story, to learn more about these golden plates that he's hearing so much about. Right. And what's amazing about this and this is probably confusing if you're not a Mormon or at least sort of aware of Mormonism by a terrible curse of your profession like we are. The reason why they're introducing David this early in the story, even though he doesn't show up this early in the timeline, is they

want to make the three witnesses seem equal. But actually what happened is that Whitmer got conned kind of last minute by Oliver Cowdry. So they're trying to make it seem like, yeah, there was Oliver Cowdry. There was Martin Harris, and then there was, I also existed during the time period of these events. Well, and the other reason, of course, is because they have to pretend that he's this major part of the story since he was the one willing to say it over and over and over again. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So we got to David and Oliver haven't dinner, a nice little dinner.

Well, by the way way this dinner that you know David has to get permission from his wife to go off and see Oliver and this when they get away from their wives Suddenly it is candlelight in the restaurant This begins a very long Throughline of this movie which is the obvious and very palpable sexual tension in between all of the men. There's a real love by angle. Yeah, no, I was just a between Oliver and everyone he ever shares a scene with, right? Yeah.

So, yeah. So, David's like, so Oliver, did you, did you see the plates? He's like, no, no, he's like, did you talk to someone who saw the place? He's like, no, I talked to somebody who's cousin's uncle's former roommate held them in a box once. And they're like, no, he's like, did you talk to someone who saw the place? He's like, no, I talked to somebody whose cousins uncle's former roommate held them We're in a box once And they're like, well, we should go see Joe ourselves darn it and and and then they don't and we don't hear from either of these characters for another 25 Fucking no, no, we're not in the story yet. It would be cool if we went and saw him now But no, the only one who was stupid, I mean loyal enough for this part of the story was Martin. Literally, if any of this story was told sort of

quasi sequentially and with any kind of story, this would have been a half the length movie that it is. Yes. But they keep bouncing back and forth in time and it is wildly confusing. I don't know who could understand this movie. Certainly if you are not raised and sort of in sconsome or monism, you were not gonna understand anything that happens in this. There's so many just random characters that show up for no fucking reason.

Yeah. So, okay, so meanwhile, Joey's just translating away the narrator cuts in and he's like, you got all jokes. Some myths have been given interpreters by the angel. Never mind what form they took. Doesn't really matter what form they took. They just were interpreters. Don't worry about what the interpreters were or what they did.

No, they're not people. They're just, they're, they may be, they may be glasses made out of rocks. Don't worry about it. Orpo. Yeah. They may be glasses made out of rocks. Don't worry about it. It's a horrible. Yeah. I love this scene. This is the first time we see him actually doing the interpreting. And the movie doesn't have the courage to put his face all the way in the hat. Yeah.

Right. He's again, like the actor. You can see him. He's kind of humbling around the hat. And I'm like, put your face in the hat. And you know what it did. Put your face in the hat and put the you know what I did put your face in the hat.

And just so that we know that Joseph Smith is in fact an action hero. We have another quick scene of like a bunch of people show up to try to steal the plates and the family has to defend them by yelling really loud and shooting up in the air like they're trying to scare off coyotes. Yeah. It's amazing. Bang and trash can literally yelling and shooting indiscriminately. Just.

If the hostility Sam forms of protecting your land. Yes. Exactly. So then, okay. So then Joe and his wife moved to pencil. They just first his first is prime wife. No reason They just felt like moving. They just wanted to they wanted a change of scenery like you often enjoy the fine state of Pennsylvania and

Then they show Martin doing the translating here. This is um This is where they first introduced the curtain that Joe had to keep between Martin Lesti, see the very real gold plates that definitely exist, which are on the desk, but still in the sack. So just less than anyone be confused that he's actually looking at the source material as he's, as he's quote unquote, he is looking at the magic rock in the hat was the movie now to allow to see the gold plates? Yeah, right. Yeah. So yeah, so we got to that.

They're like taking a break. They're sitting standing by the river, Joseph is skipping stones. And Martin's like, Chee man, I sure wish that I could look into the hat and see the magic rock. And he's like, yeah, I probably wouldn't work if you did it, though, because you're not beloved enough by God as I am. So I probably wouldn't work for you.

Oh, okay. Okay. Can I look at one of the stones? No. No. Can I do literally anything that would service proof or even evidence? No. No. I love the moment. It's funny because he there's a moment where Martin Harris picks up a rock. And I was like, I wrote, hey, Joseph, I found a rock too. Can my rock be a seer stone? But little did I know that's what about that is coming up. Yeah. No, so they have this scene. And this is so fucking funny. If you know any of the history at all as as Dan's already pointed out, they present Martin as this wildly skeptic, right? So as soon as Joe turns his back, Martin swaps out the magic rock with just a regular rock that looks like it that he found by the river. And then Joe turns back and he looks in his

hat and he's like, what's going on here? My rock isn't working. And Martin's like, oh, yeah, I was just checking, just double checking. Make sure, but yeah, you're sure your magic is legit. Right. Because nobody could look into a, into a hat that they've been staring into for days on end. And no, oh, that's not the same rock. That's a different rock. Although I do love and wish more of religious canon was filled with people just trying to pull a swiggeroo, right? Like, and then he fired it, grabbed Moses's staff and say, let me see that thing. I bet there's just a snake in a secret compartment or something. Erg, erg. He struggled trying to tear the staff apart to find the secret compartment.

And low, he said unto him, it's under his, his tunic. Look under the tunic. I love that they keep portraying Martin Harris as the skeptic here. That dude was the most credulous simpleton. Oh, yes. He was a nutball. He would believe anything anybody said to him. He had already switched religions at least five times before he met

Joseph. Yes. Yeah. Literally one of his friends said, I was looking it up and there's a quote where one of his friends said of him, Martin was a good citizen, but he was a great man for seeing Spooks. He literally said like he's he thought a flickering candle was the devil's work. He constantly saw ghosts and demons. Yeah. Hit end as this movie will point us, spoiler alert. His wife later had to sue him to stop giving his money to idiots. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fine. I guess

we're going to court in the 18 odds and I'm going to win because you're so fucking stupid. It's amazing. So yeah, so but Martin's like, yeah, sorry Joseph, I just wanted some evidence that you weren't completely just lying to me since I'm giving you all my money and paying all your bills and shit. And he's like, hmm, wanting evidence that makes you a bad person.

He's like, I know, I know it does. And so we cut, so we cut to like later on, Martin is looking over all of the lovely come to pass as that he's translated. Emma comes in, she's very, very pregnant. And Martin explains to her that he really wants to show his wife the book of Mormon because she thinks that he's getting taken for a fucking ride.

And if only she could see how awesome this book was, she would be convinced that it must come from God, right? Yeah. This is the scene where both Emma and Joseph just separately launch into, dude, your wife is a total bitch. You know that, right? Yes. It is so fucking amazing. And she is literally the hero of the story. Martin Harris's wife is the hero of this entire story. Lucy, yeah. It's amazing. Absolutely.

I want Lucy's fucking book. So yeah, and I should point out here that over and over again, Martin keeps saying, you know, I just need some proof. I want proof. All I need is proof. They never used the word evidence, though the latter is more descriptive of what he's asking for. Yeah, right? Because even if Joseph Smith produced gold plates,

that doesn't prove that he was given them by an angel. That's just evidence. Right. Also, I just just point out in Martin's defense, I guess, Martin never asked for proof. He'd just come home from a busy day of Bible translating and Lucy would be like, Oh my fucking God. Okay. Will you at least ask this? And he was like, there's

a ghost behind you. And she was like, Oh my god, why don't tongues exist yet? I need to tell them. But Joe comes in and he's like, yeah, you know, I prayed to God about it. And he says, it's okay that if you share your, if you share the first couple of chapters, like a, like a shareware model with your, with your wife, God said, that'll be fine. Here's a list of the people you can show them to, that's it, right? So we cut to Martin reading the book of Mormon to his family. Everyone's quite enthralled, right? Yeah, because it is, if nothing else, a super engaging book.

Oh, yeah. No, it's good. Yeah. Well, I mean, we don't know that might have been the really good part. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, we never saw this part. This part goes away. And so now we're going to like, we get this sort of splice cut thing where Emma is in labor

and she's going to have the baby is going to be still born. And at the same time, Lucy is going to be stealing the book of Mormon chapters from Mark. The question is, is Emma in labor or is she trapped in a basement by Jigsaw because her acting was very, very strange. She looked terrified. Yeah. Yeah. She's just saying, no, no real difference for this actor. But now we should point out because the movie doesn't that what actually happened here is Lucy took those chapters and she's like, well, if you translated these from some other thing, you should be able to write exactly the same thing again, right? Can you do that? And he couldn't, right? Well, yeah. And and better still is she went to, she was like,

tell Joseph you lost the pages and then he'll reproduce the exact same text. And this is how fucking stupid this story is. Joseph was like, oh, God is mad. So we got to tell the same story, but a little bit different. And Martin is so stupid. He was like, I can't believe I lost the page. Yes, he forgot.

He forgot Martin, forgot that he did not input effect. Lose the page. So tell me. Yes. Yeah, but of course in the movie, it's just a, you know, Lucy is super jealous of Martin, forget none of these awesome revelations that that she doesn't get. And of course, this is also the first time the movie ever mentions, like, oh, yeah, also he's living, like Joseph Smith is living off of Martin's inheritance at this point, too, right? Yeah. Which was true.

Yeah, exactly right. That's fact. So then we cut to Joe burying is still born baby. There's this great scene where Emma's like, this does not seem like a guy who talks to God kind of fate. I gotta be honest with you. I don't feel like God normally picks a favorite and then kills the run born child.

Right. Hey, Joe, I just, because I'm gonna feel like an idiot. If I don't ask, a lot of people in this myth those have raising the dead powers. Um, you're all right in the dead power. Oh, you're all right,

the dead power. I just thought I should ask you. I mean, it's a good question. Did he even try? Right. I mean, if you're suddenly God's new fuck boy with all this magic and stuff, wouldn't you spend every spare minute just trying shit out to see what power like literally walk over to a pond and just check to see if you can walk out onto it. I don't know.

All right. So, okay. I know he's given, he's given people that power before. Yeah. Yeah. The fucking Emma's like Peter did it. I wanted Peter to be like her friend's husband that always does shit better than him, but she means the apostate.

God enough about Peter already. Geez. Look at their lawn. It's so nice. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me,'s sitting outside like gathering himself to tell Joseph the bad news about the missing page. Right. Oh my God. He is sitting on a log waiting for someone that he can tell about how life is like a box of chocolates. This whole scene, have you ever watched children play pretend, but it gets too intense. So you have to kind of get in there right?

Cause they'll be like, he killed my laser pony. That's what's happening, but there's a religion based on it. And they have seven trillion dollars of hidden money. Now. So finally, Martin comes in. Of course Joseph is still upset about his the the the miscarriage and everything. And he's like, and Martin's like, I have to tell you this this terrible fact. I've lost my soul. And everybody's like, what? And because I mean, by soul, I mean, the first couple chapters of that book that we wrote together. Oh my God. And everyone

is so dramatic in this scene. It reminds me of my high school acting class where anyone will take any excuse to yell or cry in a scene. Yeah, right. Oh, man. God is so fucking magical. Where's the miracle of decent actors in a religious movie? That's what I want to know.

There you go. But also, the movie just completely like skips over the fact that this would not be a big deal if you weren't just making shit up right Yeah, this is not the scene in misery where she sets the thing on right. This is a copy Right at least in their stupid fucking religion, but Joe is like no God's mad So he won't let me translate that part anymore. Oh And then Martin runs away. Oh my God. This is the funniest thing.

There's really truly take a moment in your head and imagine the words run away in the funniest. That's how Martin runs away. I think an entire football stadium with the people showed up to yell, run forest. Yeah. Jesus. There is no, I put my nose. I'm like, there's no word to describe the way he's running. And if there was, it would be some kind of sushi and on a mon appeal, like

pointing or some point to way or some, well, though you want, I feel like we're all super jealous of Martin's ability to just run away from this movie. So we're going to give ourselves a quick break, but we're back in a minute with even more witnesses. Ready, you're work, Diff. Ready, you're work, Diff. Hmm, number, number, number, number, number, number.

Hey Eli, Eli, you got a second? Oh, hey Noah, hey Dan, what's up? Eli, there's no easy way to put this. But you have to stop listening to Imagine Dragons. You have a problem, dude What no, I don't I just Enjoy their music. No, you don't Eli. Nobody does. Yeah. Yes, I do their lyrics are actually really interesting and Dan Reynolds isn't even raising his kid Mormon So I don't have to feel listen to to yourself, you need to confront this.

No, it's not my fault. It's, it's the Raycon wireless earbuds. Your Raycon wireless earbuds. Yeah, they come with three customizable sound profiles, noise isolation and awareness mode. Plus, Raycons have a 32 hour battery life, including eight hours of straight play time. So you can listen to them when you want, what you want for a really long time.

You know, so maybe I have listened to radioactive five or six hundred times. See, this is what I'm talking about. Eli, those must have cost you a fortune. No, Noah Raycon started half the price of other premium audio brands, but they sound just as good. Create your own soundtrack with Raycon. Right now, God of the movies listeners get 15% off their Raycon order at buyraycon.com slash cam. That's buy Raycon.com slash cam to save 15% on Rayconz by Raycon.com slash cam All right Eli, but we're watching you

Like a criminal okay Martin David Oliver it is time for you to see Revelation Amazing we three shall kneel here in this grove and pray with open hearts for God to give us a sign, and then my brothers, the angels shall reveal Himself to you. Oh, that's so cool. In what order? I'm sorry, what, what, brother Martin? Oh Oh I just wanted to make sure we weren't doing this in a specific order that maybe you forgot to mention. No we we shall all pray together for divine revelation. Oh okay cool cool cool. It's just I don't give

a wrong super excited to see God or whatever but I'm just worried he's gonna get here and be Not that psych to see David. Wait, what? No, no offense David, but you like Just got here. I'm worried the angel's gonna show up and be like who's this guy, you know And so maybe we should do like a seniority based system. Like I'll meet the angel, maybe he and I do a quick Q&A. You follow each other on Instagram and then Oliver meets him. Maybe Oliver gets a photo.

And then David gets like a hand shake on his way out. Like a comma-conline type thing. You know? No, brother Martin, we shall all meet the angel at once and as equal brothers in the sight of God. Okay, but when we say equal though, yes, yes brother Martin equal. Do I come out now? Damn it, Hyrum, not yet. Costume is hot. Damn it, Hyram not yet. Cross-dum is hot. Damn it, Hyram. And we're back for more of this shit.

We're going to rejoin the action with the interviewer prompting the next scene of the flashback because the screenwriter is lazy. Right? Oh, and this is where he provides the apologetic that I've heard many more men say, which is basically that like Joseph Smith was too uneducated and stupid. He was way too big of a blithering, drooling idiot to actually write a book.

A whole book. He couldn't have done it. Yeah, yeah, they're either going like a man with no education that could barely compose a letter, wrote this entire book, and I'm like, anyone who read it will tell you, yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, literally a 500 page book where the phrase, it came to a pass, I'm like, anyone who read it will tell you, yes, yes.

Yeah, literally a 500 page book where the phrase, it came to a pass, appears an average of almost three times a page. Yeah, I can believe an uneducated man wrote that. If you make people read the book of Alma and then ask them to describe the author, they accidentally describe an uneducated blithering idiot. Maybe I can't compose a letter. Yes, exactly. Oh my God, it's the worst fucking book ever.

Oh, also not for nothing. That apologetic really falls down when you realize he's not supposed to have written the book. He's just dictating it. Like literally anybody can do that. You just have to be able to read the rocks. Well, and then you move beyond that, right? Like your apologetic is the founder of your religion

is too stupid to write a book. Right? Right. I don't know what you're trying to defend. My confidence is absolutely top notch now. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, nobody is dumb enough to write the book of Mormon is the truest of the Mormon of politics. Yeah, it's just going about in the wrong direction. All right. So, but eventually we fucking

would chop our way back into the flashback. Joey is forgiven Martin for losing all of his, his pages. God said, we won't retranslate that stuff. We're going to rephrase, we're going to paraphrase that part of the translation now. This is also when he gets his Oprah moment and he's like, and you get to see the blades. Oh, you're right. You're right. Yeah. He says you, and God told me, Martin, that you get to see the plates and Martin's like really can You shut let later eventually someday someday we're gonna do a sticker chart and when God sees that you have 10 sunny days in a row You get to see the place you're because they're right there. I've got my sister working on a paper mache plates thing. You got to wait until it's dry first and high rooms in the back working

on the angel costume. So me. Well, we've got David Whitmer, Lulu, Lewin back at the farm, where his very normal Christian dad, who's not sure about this Mormon thing, shows up and he's like, Hey, you got another one of these letters from that thing that you're heavily involved with from the very beginning. And he's like, right, yes, letter from Oliver. I think you dad. Yes. I am very much participating.

Yes. A letter from your friend, Oliver. Yeah. Yeah. His dear good friend, Oliver. Yes. His pal, Oliver. Well, and this is the lazyest they ever managed to squeeze David into the plot, right?

Because what they're doing here is like they're introducing Oliver to the story. This is where Oliver shows up and he's boarding with the Smith household and the Smiths, like send him over to help Joseph, right? But the way that they introduce that is Oliver writing a letter to David about the fact that he's being introduced to the story. David. I'm in the movie. So we cut to Oliver and Oliver comes in like the Smith family is all like talking about

the golden plates and then he walks in and they're like, oh, I'm sure I'm sure. And he's like, oh, just so you know, guys, you know guys, I would like to help Joseph Smith with his con. I mean, religion. I would definitely play along. I mean, believe in it, wink, right? Yeah. I mean, he literally says that he says something about, I've seen the plates.

I mean, I've dreamed about them. I mean, I'm lying. I haven't seen them, but I did. I don't worry. I believe all this stuff pretty, pretty much. Right. Might as well come over and run his finger along the banister. Um, mom says you have to let me be a part of your religion or you have to stop playing. And I get to get to be controller number one. Yeah. The religion the whole time. Right. You've had it.

It's a very big movie. So yeah. So they're like, all right, Oliver. You too can be taken advantage of me. He's like, Rae. So they go to see Joseph. Oliver offers to scribe for him. He's like, oh, good.

Cause Martin. Bucking sucks. He's so slow. So I mean, I need it. I need it because of you know, but he's constantly looking up and being like, how do you spell cat? And I'm just like, Martin, come on. Wait a minute, wait a minute, Oliver, you don't have a meddling wife. Do you? Yeah. This is the new rules to the clubhouses. No wives who ask questions. And this is also the first time we get the full blown hat looking, right?

The full face in hat moment. Yeah. Get it in there. Get it in there. And I got to say, David Whitmer's going to be mad because the sexual tension between Oliver and Joseph is big. Oh, I wrote it later in my notes. I'm like, I know this is a Mormon movie,

so the two of these men aren't gonna fuck, but if I was making a movie where the two of these men fuck, it would be exactly the same. This is the tension now, yeah. There is no difference. That is the same movie. Yeah. I feel like the guy who played Oliver,

just like everyone had a huge crush at him in the BYU drama club, but he was just never telling anyone who he had a crush on. Yeah, right. Right. You know, the truth is if you had crazy, like, hundred-air money, you could actually make those scenes happen. We could, we could, I think you're right.

We could get those actors. We could, we can get those back in. We could do it. There you go. Dan can find, give us the personal average addresses of those actors on air. That is actually probably true. I know most of the people in this movie. Yeah, right. So, yeah. So, so fucking Joseph's going down on that given Conolingus to that fucking hat, right? Doing his translation. Fun fact, according to the only review of this on IMDB,

the Mormon Church used to excommunicate people for admitting that he translated by sticking his face in a hat. Now it's in the fucking movies. Yeah, they didn't like that. No, but we learn here that Oliver conscribed the shit out of some book of Mormon. Oh, yeah. And then in the next scene, we learn that Lucy is suing them for being frauds and stealing all of Martin's fucking money. Yeah.

I can't believe the movie emits this lawsuit exists, but instead they claim that it was like the divorce trial between her and Martin. Yeah, they don't make it clear at all what the lawsuit is. Just she's suing, uh, could be anybody really. Yeah.

She's just suing somebody for something. She's just suing in general and it's because she's a meanie. She's such a bitch. Once again, she proves that she's the smartest person in the whole story. It is amazing. Yeah, she's gonna do that a couple more times here in Act Two. And then there's this amazing moment, which again, why would you keep this in the fucking movie where Martin says,

Hey, Joe, you know, I'm being sued. If you showed me the gold plates, like you've already promised to do, that would really be helpful for me in this lawsuit where I could stand to lose a lot of my property and money and, and he's like, no. And Martin's like, but right, but you promised and Joseph's like, yeah, I do that a lot, man. I just, you're going to have to get used to that. Okay. What should I do in the only trial where it will be exposed, the full extent, which I've been taking advantage of? Well, Martin, you get up there and you tell everyone how stupid you are for the whole world to see, okay? Okay, shout it into the historical record

Carping it into stone. Yeah So then we cut to this incredibly sexual scene where Joe and Oli are baptizing each other. Oh my god I'm the shit out of each other. It sounds like a euphemism and it is. So. Yeah. So, and so we get that, we get a shot where we established that Emma sure does love and support Joe and takes no issue whatsoever with the work he's doing.

Right. Yeah. This is where he tells, he tells Joseph tells Emma that Oliver also has magic god powers. Now that he, he prophecies. Yeah. Yeah. They are filling each other up with the Holy Ghost. Yes. Yeah. With Holy Ghost. And then the movie is like, oh, this is kind of boring. I guess we need some action. So some bad guys come in and throw shit at them. Hey, Joe, why were the bad guys there? Bad guys came and threw shit at them. Oh, I can be too happy.

No reason, just because they hated more. Again, keep in mind that this is the movie admitting for the second time that people kept writing up to the Smith House to be like, motherfucker. Yeah. Right. Without, without even attempting to explain why, right? It's just they just hate the Mormons.

Yeah. And it's so funny because there's not even a book yet. Like no, Mormons don't exist at this time. Right. There's not, there's no such thing as a Mormon yet. We haven't gotten there, but there are sure people who oppress them. Well, right, right. Yeah, exactly. Or at the very least people who throw shit at Joe Smith. So then we cut to the trial. And this trial scene is fucking delicious chef. Just kiss after chefs, kiss. So we start off with one of Joseph Smith's former accomplices

admitting in a fucking court that we still have a record of that Joseph Smith told him that he just had a box full of sand that he was telling people a golden Bible was it. Yes, and it is actually, it's a little bit worse than that. He was originally in on the con. Yes, he was like, yeah, no, he cut me out of this con. So I'm telling, I'm telling you now, Joseph. Right. And this guy actually was arrested in association with another con that Joseph Smith

was arrested in association with my recall correctly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And they're just like, I was watching this scene and at one point I was like, wait a minute, considering the fact that literally nobody has even come close to seeing the golden plates. Am I? Am I to assume that the title witnesses just refers to the people who were subpoenaed for this trial? And speaking of subpoenas, we also get their fucking insane defensive Joseph Smith not showing up to this trial here, which is there's this very dramatic moment where they're like, Hey, where's your client? This is not the weird divorce hearing or Martin Harris or whatever the fuck they think it is. This is, this is about whether or not your

guys are fraud and the lawyers like Joseph Smith will come if we legally make him. Right. Yes, he's willing to come if he absolutely has to and doesn't have a choice about it. He's ready. He's just hanging out. He says, you're the one scared of him. His mom won't let him fight. He wants to. And it's great. Took us. We cut out of this to the interview. We cut away from the trial for a second to the interview that this, that they're framing this with. And the guy was like, he's, he's asking David Whitmer. He's like, so this, this Oliver guy, he's the one who said that he saw the plates with you, right? And he's like, yes. And Oliver's integrity is beyond question. And the reporter guy goes, he didn't that guy also say he was visited by John the Baptist and David old old timey David

Whitmer's like, wait, I don't understand what your point. Why why did why is that the follow up? That doesn't make sense. Nope, it's fine. I'm just, I'm just doing old time. He'd be reasonable. That's okay. He's gonna move forward. And then as though David was like, oh, I'm losing him, I'm losing him.

All right, better tell him about the stupidest miracle in modern history. Oh my God. I could not believe that this was yeah podcast listener. We're going to play a little game is interactive podcasts now. Okay. So here's what happens. David's about to tell the story of he wanted to go see Joseph Smith, but his dad said,

you can't go until all the fields are plowed. Now what is the dumbest miracle that could have happened? You just filled it. I know. Oh, I know. Dan, please, please. Is it the, the, the field is plowed? It is, it is. It is actually dumber than mad Dan. I'm afraid, I'm afraid. No, that's what I would hope for. What if it was three guys who said David hired them showed up. Yes. Cloud the field. Oh, it's already so fucking lame because he comes out and the dad's like, oh my God, how

did you get all that plowing done? And David's like, I didn't plow the fields. And you're like, oh, God came down and plow the field. Is that why there's only the one set of footprints or whatever? But then the sister comes in. She's like, yeah, three guys came and did that this morning. David, didn't you hire them? And David's like, shut up. No. I didn't. You sure? Because they told me and I later said the show. Oh, one of being the movie. Also, can we talk a little bit about the fact that David Wittmer is

married and in his mid to late 20s at this point and asking permission from his daddy if he's allowed to go and right. Before his chores are done. What the fuck is going on? It's like his dad's treating him like he's a tween who wants to go to a sleepover, right? But he gets to go. So we see him giddy up in his way on the, we come back to the trial

where Lucy is is on the state. Lucy, the star of the movie, Martin's, I guess, now ex-wife. And they're going to get the gotcha from her. This is the dumbest, but they almost went with the best worse gotcha here. They get Lucy on the stand and she's like, yeah, Joseph Smith is a con man. And she's like, he's like, really? He stole all your husband's money. She's like, that's right, he conned him on all his money. He's like, but if that's true and he's such a con man, why did you give him money? And then this is supposed to be the whole like, oh shit, she's obviously lying because she knows that Joseph Smith is a trustworthy guy or she wouldn't have given him money. But it's like, the argument is, if he's really a con man, why does he ask everyone, he knows for money

and not just this victim? Yeah, it's basically if he's not really a Nigerian prince, then why did you give him money? Why did you send your money to him? Right, and they ask her, she's like, you know, did he defraud you out of that money? She's like, well, I mean, no, I gave it to him. And they're like, ah, see, you admit he's not a fraud.

And she's like, well, he wasn't a fraud that time. I mean, he was kind of a fraud. So she's surprised. And then they get the judge, the judge decides he's sick and they should, he'll call his own damn witnesses. Right, yeah, that was amazing. The judge, did the judge need to take a shit or something? He feels, he feels like Noah trying to wrap up a record

because the air conditioner's been off. Look, this is all very good and trial-y or whatever. Hi. Do you have anyone who's not going to talk about Joseph Smith being a fraud at the fraud trial? No. Well, then I think we've all heard what we need to hear here. And look at that. We're finished just in time for a side-fell. What did you say? Well, no, he says, he even says he's like, well, I'm calling Martin to the stand

and they're like, can you do that? You're the fucking judge. And he says to Martin, he's like, Martin, did he steal your money? And Martin's like, no, I gave it to him willingly. He's like, well, no con men has ever made someone think they gave him the money willingly. Case dismissed. Right. Oh, but I got to say before that, I started to go back in time a little bit, but before that, the prosecutor asks Lucy, isn't it your devious plan to get the court to force Joseph Smith to produce the plates?

And I was just like, um, that would solve this whole thing, wouldn't it? Isn't, don't you wouldn't it though? Your guy to produce the plates and then all this case just goes away and you've won, wouldn't that be better? Yeah, right. And they make it, they make it like it's this gotcha on her. Like, yeah.

Ah, you, all you want is for my client to produce evidence. Isn't that so? That's the thing. Ha, you all you want is it was a my client to produce evidence. Isn't that so? That's the thing. The dastardly deed she was up to was trying to find any shred of evidence that he wasn't a fucking liar at a trial about whether he was a fucking liar. Oh, yes. All right, so we cut back to David.

He's giddy up his way all the way to the Smith House. We have this, this is, I'm to say Joseph Smith's most low key miracle. You mean the miracle of kind of sort of knowing what happened earlier in that guy's day? Oh, come on, come on, Dan. He knew details that only a profit or stage magician could have. I know. Literally, I thought he was doing Eli's old act first. Hey, I would never, I'm my wife. My wife was slightly better than this.

I'm there. You know, I knew which cards there were in everything. At one point, he's like, and doesn't this person own the hotel and he's like, oh, I, I don't know that. And he's like, well, I looked it up and he does. He does. It was the Six of Diamonds. He goes, so this is what he actually says.

He's like, wow, how did you guys know I was coming? He's like, well, you know, Joseph prophesied it. He said that you wrote all through the night last night and then you stated a hotel and left early this morning. He's like, wow, how could he possibly know that? I'm like, you're here. Right. He knows where you started and where you are.

And he knows that there's a hotel in the middle. Right. Yeah, exactly. It's not like there's a fucking hotel in every exit at this point. And when David sees Joseph, he turns into the most aweshocks that. Oh, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, That's like dude you're it's his house. Yeah, you're going to But there's also this great haggie graphical moment where like they all him and uh and all of her stand around a little while Afterwards going wow, he's so young and And sexy and his ass looks so good in those pants. They go, I guess they're getting ready to do the translation or whatever. Joseph

hasn't showed up. And he's like, you know, he's just, he's the most remarkable man I've ever met. And yet he's just like you and I. He's so approachable, you know, such a just so girthy and smart and perfect and psychic and his magic tricks are so good. And then and fucking Oliver cuts in and he's like, you know, also he's friends with Jesus, real good friends with Jesus. Like, he's like, I know, he's really there. He's that. That's so cool. This time I picture everyone talks about me when I'm not around. No, it is though. It is. This is the dialogue. Yeah. So, so, but Joseph comes in with his box of sand. I mean plates and Dave's like, Oh, I guess I'll leave unless you're, I'm gonna, are you gonna, okay, no, I'll leave, I'll leave. So yeah, and then we cut to the same place we already are. I love this. The

fucking little title card on the screen comes up and it's like, Fayette, New York, I'm like, we were already in Fayette, New York, you should know the fuckers. You were just proud that he hadn't been run out of town. Yeah. We've been through three towns in the movie. That's amazing. But this is the day where Oliver David Martin and Joseph all went out into the woods to pray for God to reveal the golden plates to them. In a vision, not in real life, but in a vision, which is even more true if you think about that. The golden plates that were in a box in the last scene. Right.

Like literally we just cut away from them. Fucking open the box, you asshole. Don't, right. You don't need to go into a forest to have a vision. Yep. They're right there. Yeah, exactly. This is such lame bullshit.

You even fucking imagine your body who you're pretty sure has been conning you. This all times when I'm like, no, I'm going to show you these things. And they bring you out in the forest. You're like, all right. So if you believe hard enough, you're going to see it. Give me a fucking break. This is a seven year old lying to you. Are you not seeing it? Tell me when you see it. Tell me, is it there?

We'll wait. We'll wait till you see it. We'll just be here. Right. Yes. I just love that this whole thing started with, hey, let's all go into the woods and, you know, kneel down with each other. Everybody on their knees together. If it's somebody else, and you mean in pray? Yeah, I guess, I guess pray. Yeah. There is no amount of sanitizing this sequence of events that doesn't make it obvious bullshit, right? Because then they don't see the plates.

Nobody sees the plates in Martin's. Like it's my fault because I have doubt. Let me ployink away. And maybe you guys will see it and wouldn't you know it? Just as my all Martin Martin, you turned your ass. You know how you went to go take you, you, this is crazy, Martin. You will not believe it seconds after you exited. We all saw the plates in a vision. It's the snuffle up, I guess, of starting a religion. She can jay frog dance again.

It's the Rocco of starting a religion. Right, exactly. And also, can we just mention that it is the worst seeing angels special effect of all time? Yes, oh yeah. The bright LED like bulb shining on them in broad daylight so that it doesn't really look like much is happening except maybe someone like shine to mirror and cut the sun on their faces or something. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Put modern headlights

in front of them or something. Yeah. Yeah. Though we just that's the thing. We don't see the age. We don't see the gold plates. we just see them and like a brilliant white light falls upon them. Or that's it, right? That's what we see. And then we fast forward to the Book of Mormon being finished. Right? They're like, hooray, Book of Mormon is finished. And we back out of the interview for some more like, how could this book possibly have been written if it wasn't true apologetics, right? Which is so amazing because they're again, they're claiming that like a 500 page book in three months is impossible. I actually know people write books in 10 days and he's not claiming to have written right fucking book. It doesn't take that long to just write it down

while someone dictates it. Right. No, that's a really slow process, especially if you have magical interpreters, but that's the thing. First of all, you could not write a less remarkable book. If I gave you three months to do it, but the other thing too,

and this is an apologetic you constantly hear from the Mormons is like, you know, you wrote that in just three months as though as though to say, well, you couldn't, it must have just been translated. He couldn't have written the entire book, 500 pages just by himself in three months or whatever, but it's like, but those three months weren't consecutive. There's a great, so what we're getting that is that the number of days spent translating is around like 70, 75 or something like that. But that was over a two year period. So it's not only is it not an effective apologetic,

but it's also a fucking lie. No, you're being a real jerk right now. RR9 though. It was three months. You're just stopping a dick about it. All my data overall, they're a dog. But yeah, right, right. And then in the interview, right? Like Edwin Kelly says,

well, it seems to me that like, you know, this is obviously bullshit. And David Whitmer is like, well, have you even read the book of Mormon? And he's like, I know. And he's like, well, perhaps you shouldn't. I'm like, why though? Right? Like if the story of how it came to exist is very obviously bullshit, why would he then have to read it? I feel like that's a reason not to read it. If anything. Have you read Grey's Anatomy? Don't be an asshole. Just don't point out the true things don't require a back cover to cover reading. Right. You are. And then that so we go back into the flashback to narrators like it wouldn't you believe it once the book of Mormon was finished Joe just kept having revelations and

Learning new things from God that weren't in the book But we're also here really just as important as what what Very convenient once Joseph realized that anyone was believing his garbage Yeah, certainly the revelations came a lot more quickly, you think? Yeah, if you can believe that. Yeah, this is where the Lord wants them to go to Ohio. And I'm like, no, loving God would ever send anyone to Ohio. This is bullshit.

This is great moment. And look, this is the story of all post book of Mormon Mormonism where like everyone who's in the cult so far as like, are you sure God wants me to go to Ohio? I was really hoping the God would want me to stay right, right? Yeah. And Joseph's like, no, actually, and you know what? God just said you have to ride in the bat. You don't get shotgun anymore. What God said. So we got to Kirkland, Ohio or as it was known at the time out west. This

is where Sydney Rigden enters the picture. Yeah. And can we just say Sydney Rigden, fantastic audition for Mormonism, right? Yeah. He's the original bringer comedy club of Mormonism. He's like, Hey, Joe, I noticed your con going on here. So I brought my whole congregation. Didn't I everybody? Yeah. It's amazing. He literally is on the pulp over the pulpit talking to his congregation. He's like, also bad news, everybody.

We're all Mormons now. Yeah. And they're just like, oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah, no, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, the Mormons okay. Yeah, I guess we're different religion. Most of us can't spell. So yeah, whatever man. Sure.

Yeah, yeah. But Sydney is, he's making Mormons left and right and Joe is like, Sydney, now you have the power of magical prophecy. And David is there. He's like jealous on behalf of Oliver, who apparently up until then was the prophecy guy Yeah, David is literally like um, excuse me Oliver was here first and

Yes So and the narrator cuts in at this point. He's like, you know, that was the first real motive division And I'm like, yeah, you have to point that out because of course at this this point, like the point that the interview is going on within this movie, David Whitmer was leading his own offshoot religion called the Whitmerite Church that was not affiliated with the Mormons. So you kind of have to do it. You do kind of have to address that there was division there eventually. Yeah. If any of you guys at home want to go down a Startlingly weird rabbit hole start looking up the the Mormon offshoots which start literally a year after Mm-hmm Joseph Smith starts the Mormon church. It is crazy. It's amazing. Yeah. Oh, it's so good So we get this scene where like Joseph Smith is talking to Emma and he's like, yeah, it's

getting really complicated. They're saying that like this other dude has revelations and they're like even better than my revelations. And she's like, well, yeah, but why don't you just have a revelation that his revelations aren't true? It's not that easy, Emma. If I say he's full of shit, then he might say that I'm full of shit. And I don't have any more evidence than he does and then we're all in a broil is nonsense

You can't just say things are real when you're doing this Emma You can't have people thinking about how Nothing. None of this shit is real called yes and Emma And what's funny is I wrote in the notes. notes, why did I tell everybody that they could all have their own revelations stupid? And then the next scene happened. Yes. Literally that.

Yeah. The next scene is literally David saying, but didn't you say everyone could have their own revelations? And you said, Oh, when I had said that, what I had meant to have said when I did say that, look, you all can have revelations, but I'm the only one who can tell if they're real or not. So you have to come to me and then I'll confirm or deny where it just based on what I think. They try to disguise this as like a big dramatic moment where like Joseph Smith is using

hyperbole, but I want to be clear that this thing that happens at the end of the scene, where he goes, only Joseph Smith is a prophet, Joseph loves God, is something that happens during an argument. So they were arguing about the fate of the church, and Joe went, what's that God? Only Joseph Smith is a prophet forever and ever. No

backsees. 100% does this. And the movie is very smart, right? The movie does it as like a wow. Can you imagine if Joseph said what an interesting thing that Joseph might say hypothetically as opposed to like no, because I was on safe. No takes these backsees. Yeah. I love that. There was a line where Joseph yells, you flirt with a apostasy. Yes. And now I'm going to go flirt with a 14 year old. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I'll tell you what, it's a good thing Joseph Smith wrapped that one up,

put a pin in that shit. Mormon schisms are solved once and for all. So I think we can safely take ourselves another break. But first, let me give that three the hard sell. Can Joseph Smith borrow about 40 bucks until Thursday? Do you doubt the integrity of the Holy Prophet? Why haven't you given him the 40 bucks yet then? Find out the answers to these questions or at least once just like them, when we return for the detrimentally honest conclusion of witnesses.

And it came to pass that it came to pass that those who had seen the coming to pass of coming to pass had come to pass and the come to passing, which had came to pass, had come. Sorry, Joseph. Yes, Martin, what is it? We must finish our translation. Right, sorry, it's about my wife. Ah, she troubles you once more. Yeah.

I see, Martin, what if I were to show you a miracle? Oh, a miracle? Oh, miracle, that would be amazing. Yes, Martin, for it is I, who have got your nose. Oh, you do? Yeah, no, you can see it right here between my knuckles. Oh, it is. Well, what's on my face? Don't check, don't check.

Don't check, because that's not your nose. It's this over here is your nose. Wow, I didn't even feel you take it. I know, and now your nose is back. Now can we get back to work? Oh, we sure can, Joseph. Wow, my own nose. This is slightly less dumb than the real story.

It is, yes. Yes. Thank you. And we're back for still more of this shit. And we're gonna rejoin the action back of the interview with David Whitmer, like Knights Fallen now on their interview. And the interviewer guy is like, okay, so tell me, don't show me the next part.

You remember that time when your cult leader got tart and feathered and you did a bunch of magic healing. And David's like, I vaguely remember some magic healing that I did. Sure. Sure. Hey, why did Joseph Smith get tart and feathered? A lot of drama around. But I healed him. I healed him so that don't pay attention to the why. Right. I love the idea that like so you could heal a guy who was tired and feathered and his collarbone was broken. Wow. With powers like that, I guess nobody in your town ever had any medical

problems, huh? Right. Right. And there's sure wouldn't be any division in your church with what with all the magic powers going around. Yeah. Yeah. With that kind of miracles, I'll bet nobody questioned anything ever. Yeah. So we dropped back into the flashback so we can explain why everyone questioned everything, right?

At this point, Joe had gone back to his fake book, Dictating Roots, I guess he was restoring the Bible. Go with what you know, man. Yeah, but restoring, I mean, rewriting, of course. Yeah. I love that the Mormon's own website says that the Joseph Smith translation, which is what they call this thing, is quote, a revision or translation of the King James version of the Bible, which, you know, that's in English, guys.

Yeah, translated that one from English. You don't need to translate that. You're fine. He's got his face in the hat. Sorry, old habits die hard. It's right here, isn't it? It's just sitting in front of me. Also, I just have to point out that he introduces this flashback with converts came and went

leaders, Rose and fell. And anyone who's aware of Mormon history, that's a fucking understatement baby. That sentence is doing a lot of heavy lifting. So as he's doing his fucking restored rewriting of the Bible or whatever, all of our barges in, he's like, I need to talk with you alone, Joey for a minute. And he's like, no, I'm sure there's nothing that he's like alone for a minute.

So Sidney Rigden walks out and he's like, ah, so you fucking extra ladies now, man, publicly. And why would you put this in the movie? Why? You don't have to put this in the movie. You don't, you did not. I guarantee you that this was their idea, their way of like nodding at polygamy without admitting

that it was like 50 women, they're like, we're just gonna, look, were you admit that there were other ladies? We were not gonna talk about the ones that were teenagers or the ones that were already married to another guy that he sent away or anything else. We never see another wife. We never hear about it again after this.

It's just this easy way of being like, look, we acknowledge it. It's right. Yes. We acknowledge it. Exactly. And if you didn't already know that Mormon's practice polygamy, you wouldn't learn it from this scene, right? Because it's kind of big.

Oliver's like, you know, I need to talk to you about that young woman that does your laundry or whatever, or is she your wife now? And he's like, I am, you know, living in the way of the biblical Isaac and blah, blah, blah. And that's all they ever really say, right? Which by the way, he does, he mentioned, he says, this is the way of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob only one of those guys had multiple wives at the same time. Oh, yeah. But you know, they all wanted to.

You're right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. You're saying. Look, God wants me to fuck more beautiful young women, dude. What can I say? Is that God's will, man? Yeah. And I love that he threatens him here with being smitten. He's like, you know, he's smitten. Is this how you get smitten, Joseph? Okay. You're smitten. No, you are. I feel I feel like the, yeah, the scene with the two guys who have the most sexual attention

in the whole show yelling about getting smitten. It feels a little on the nose. That's, I've been speaking of shit. They should have just got their fucking mouth shut about. This is where we learned about that time that Joseph Smith made his own bank and then told all his followers to put their money in it and then immediately lost all their fucking money. Okay. Oh my God. Let me explain why. Okay.

We opened a bank. Why am I telling this part? You asked me to just straight forward. Did he give him some kind of, is there a cut scene where he gave him like Veritasirum from the Harry Potter universe and he just hand. He got a child made a liar, liar wish before this interview. This is another moment where my best worst comes into this like, I don't know who this movie is for because they're talking about it's not great to own property.

That should all just go to the church. And basically Joseph is calling for communism. Yep. To a group of people like there is no group of people in modern America who love property and hate communism more than the Mormons. Right. And they he's reminding that they're reminding them that this is what Joseph basically wanted. It's absurd. Yeah. So we get this scene of everybody freaking out everybody of the church getting all upset because the bank is headed towards insolvency.

Joseph Smith comes up and chastises everybody. He's like, look, I did not take everyone's money and just con you out of it is what that's what didn't just happen. And I was like, oh, no, that's definitely what didn't just happen. I just got to see it. At one point a guy stands up and he's like, you should God ran the bank and he said, no, I said, here's what I said. I said, I said if everyone behaved the way God, okay, I got it.

If everyone behaves the way God wants you to, the man will agree. He's gonna be the way. Also, can I just say that in this scene, we start with the thing that happens later, like to several people in the suit that Sydney rigged in his wearing in this scene, is astoundingly bad. It might as well be made of all the poor people's money. It's got giant polyester lapels on a comically oversized jacket. It looks like they tried to modify a Frankenstein costume from a particularly cheap pop-up Halloween

store. It's so bad. There's no time in history when that was the fit. Nope. I'm just saying. Sure wasn't. So, Joe leaves, he happens upon a couple of other characters who are all yelling about how, you know, there's a lot of reasons why

this bank went under, but Joseph Smith sure wasn't one of them. Right. So they accused Ward. They're like, Ward, you stole all the money. He's like, no, I did. What's that over there? No, he never says no, I didn't. They're just like, well, you stole the money and he's like, I am going to go start my own sect of this religion. This is my religion now. I've got my own, now that I have money, and none of them are like, could you give it back?

The money that you stole? Yes, and only. Yeah, they're literally, they're just sitting there like damn it. If only there was something that could be done after someone steals. Yeah, right, right. So and then and then we cut to the night scene and I love this so much. This was the greatest punchline in the movie and the movie had no fucking idea. I had to pause this movie for like a minute and a half. They come back. The narrator goes, yeah, well, the bank went under only lasted for three weeks. Three weeks. None of the loan payments would have even come. Jew.

Yeah. Three fucking weeks. What do we think? Did Joseph just stand at the back, stuffing the money into his clothes like a marshmallow man and then walk out the back doors. It's well, I think it has to be that. I think the idea was that it was supposed to be everybody give the bank all of your money and then we just pay for everybody's things. It was literally that communist and everybody was

just like, okay, I'll give you a little bit. Wait, wait, it's what now? No. And it literally fell apart. And the guys did steal and everything went wrong. And that, but I love that in this scene, he says the bank only lasted three weeks, but you know, he's a bad economy. Yeah. Like he's literally nothing could have happened in three weeks time. Right. He got him. He got him. He didn't change over that three weeks. He says he literally says a lot of banks went bust around that time.

I'm like, after three fucking weeks, not everything. It's like guys who are like got fired for sexually harassing a mailman. And they're like, yeah, the recession. I lost my job in 2011. You know the recession. Session really job in 2011. You know the recession session really hit everybody hard. Yeah, but David in the interview, he's like, now yeah, there's a lot of reasons that bank went under, but none of them were because Joseph was a thieving stealing bastard. That's sure the correct truth. That's my story and I'm sick of doing it. Yeah. And so Joe in the flashback goes back to see Martin

who apparently didn't invest in the fucking NFTs this time. No, the one time Martin almost kind of sort of didn't fall for it. Right? Yeah. And he goes to see Martin. He's like, yeah, and he's like, God needs your help. And he's like, do you mean my money? And he's like, I exactly that.

Yes. Exactly. Again, if God could just get a little loan till his next trip comes in, Martin, no, man, it's not me. If it were me, I would never ask for this at all, but it's the Lord, the Lord God's car broke down and the bus tickets from here. I'm telling you, man, I need a car seat in the taxi with the car seat is actually for my son Jesus. Jesus will totally get you back with interest. I promise man. And Joseph Smith's like, you know, if you think about it Martin the fact that you didn't put all your money in the bank is a lot of the reason why it failed. You know, so it's really kind of

your fault more than mine. And he's like, is it? Oh, he's like, yeah, no, totally. Yes. So then we got to Martin bailing Joe out. We got to him like buying useless land in Curtlyn, no, high, oh, to make up for the losses of the bank. Yeah. And the bankers like, are you giving Joseph the deed again? And he's like, no, this lands in my name.

And he's like, but, but Joe's going to use it for the church and to bail out his bank. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then get reggae and then get you kicked out of it and you don't have to run to a different state. And you know, yeah, you know that. Yeah. I mean, at least he retained the deeds. That's, you know, that's the wisdom of being a 400 times bitten twice shot. Yeah, right. So there's this great moment too. So Joseph's like hugging his wife, the first one, Emma, the first one. The only one that we ever see ever. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Certainly the only one we'll ever see him hugging. And he's like, yeah, you know, it feels like I've lost Oliver and Sydney and really all the named characters at this point. And Emma, employing the term a lot of people think the way Marsh does on B. reasonable says, yeah, a lot of people think that you're a fraud. And he goes, well, what do you think, Emma? And she says, I think we should talk about a different subject, different subject. Well, the way he words it, he says, well, what is the prophet's wife think?

And she goes, I just thought she should say, don't know, should I go ask her? Oh, you mean me? I'll take a poll. We'll go. So meanwhile, you got Oliver, David, at Altherall, rabble, rabble, rabble in a room somewhere about what to do, whether Joseph Smith should stay in charge, whether they should put someone else in charge, et cetera. And the guy who's leading the meeting is literally, his name is Parrish and he's, he's one of the

ones that goes off and starts his own religion later, but he's the one who stole all of the money. And like literally, it's, it it's like the whole everyone in there is like, hey, this whole thing, his fault shouldn't we kick him out? And they're like, we can't kick him out. He called the meeting. It's like, he literally, yeah, he goes, that's not the point. Okay. The point is, why are you bringing a bullshit? Yeah. We're all mad. If anyone wants to know what the inside of company meetings are like when I get us sued, it's a little like Yeah So yeah, and so some random goes like I think David Whitmer should be in charge and somebody else goes Why and he's like I don't have a follow-up line dude. Why fuck would you do that? I don't know

We were we were all just killing a lot and it seemed like something I could say. I don't know I don't know what we're yelling By the way the reason why there's not a line here is because David started his own church claiming to have divine intervention from God, a lie that he later did take back. So the reason they can't have that line is because David would have been like, because I talked to God and he said, I'm the president of Jesus now. Right. Yeah. Uh huh.

So yeah, but ultimately, I guess the schemers have scheme to steal more monism from Joseph Smith at gunpoint, which is amazing because literally nobody in the meeting goes, Hey, wait a minute. Maybe the whole thing has been stupid all along. Right. Come on. Why are we trying to fix this religion? It's all based on this one guy. You could just jettison him and leave. None of you have to keep going. Well, but that's exactly and if it wasn't just for the fact that they were all in it for the money and the power that you have when you lead people in a religion, that's what they would absolutely

do, right? But the movie never bothers to like recognize that fact that if it wasn't for the fact that they were going like, but you know, we got these congregation idiots that are just going to keep giving us money and doing what we tell them and giving us their wives and shit, you know, let's let's make good on that, you know, without admitting that that's what was going on, there's no reason at all for them to have this conversation. A hundred percent. But so we at this scene, we're like in the middle of the services, one guy steps up with a gun and he goes, I'm this religion now.

And the other guy's like, I don't think that's how it works. And another guy steps up with a gun. He's like, I assure you that's how it works. And they're like, oh, fuck. And that guy turns to Oliver Cowdry. And he's like, Hey, man, a little helpier. And Oliver is like, I'm sorry, I gotta take this call.

What's that? God, don't be in that room anymore. Okay. God, I'm just using it. Literally, it feels like that some random, we don't even know who these people are, but some random just goes, look at me. Look at me. I'm the prophet now. So. So then we cut to, we cut to, I guess these people are now on trial sort of, they're on kangaroo,

trial or whatever, for dissenting and trying to steal Mormonism. This is where like Sydney Rigden denounces them. Yeah. And we get, I don't even know what they're apologizing for. And what this apologetic is apologizing for. I have no fucking clue what's going on here, right? So Martin, David and Oliver all get excommunicated. No, they didn't, but it wasn't official, but it was official,

but they came back, but no, they didn't. Yeah, literally they're all desperately upset, like tearfully reading these letters. They are so upset that they are excommunicated from the church that they left. Yes. You already left. Where are you mad? This movie is collapsing in on itself, right? The like at a certain point, the lies don't uphold the other lies.

So they're like, okay, we did leave But then we got kicked out, but Joseph didn't sign the letter. What are you? It was probably there when they brought it There was so Man, it's like someone asked you me about any of my breakups. They're like, hey, why were any of your break up? I'm like, oh, you know people drift apart breakups. They're like, Hey, why were any of your breakups? I'm like, Oh, you know, people drift apart. There's a lot of so long. And then we reenter suddenly and absolutely and expliquably, we are back to the cockney

voiceover. I didn't. Yes. This, yeah, this movie is literally crumbling under its own weight. But apparently, it even, it even backs out to the interview at this point for a second. And he's like, so wait a minute. So, so you were kicked out of the church and he's like, I was cast out under the threat of violence. And the interviewer goes, well, who threatened violence? And David Whitmer goes, does it matter? And everyone says, why would it not matter?

Yeah, absolutely fucking matters. I mean, it had to be Joseph at that point right? It was like literally the good guys. That's why we're hiding from this exactly right. Yeah, right? If it was fucking parish or whatever they'd have been like, well, yeah, it's the guy with the mustache from earlier Yeah, right so they all went off and they all founded their own fucking religions is what happened in real life Yeah, right? They all went off and they all founded their own fucking religions is what happened in real life. Right. The movie might as well extend its hands out from a screen and wave them in their faces

just saying, it was the whole thing. We don't like this stuff about it. And I know, Noah, that you think that there's a money motive here, but I mean, these people are all vying for the literally ones of hundreds of followers that this religion has. I'm so confused by, I mean, it is the worst, stupidest power grab of all time, but it really is. They did it.

Yeah. But then the fucking movie makes this big deal. The narrator cuts in and says, you know, and this is the whole point of the fucking film, right? They're like, it was a really like nasty breakup and all of these people, these three witnesses that signed the book and said that they saw the plates and their visions or whatever. They all left the church.

And so if they were gonna ever admit that it was a lie, this would have been the time to do it, right? When they were all mad at each other or whatever. But and then movies like, and they didn't. So therefore, it must have been true. But it's like, what you're saying is that they never admitted publicly that they knowingly engaged in fraud and built their entire careers on it. Because again, these people all went and started their own versions of Mormonism and

shit. Yeah. Exactly. Why would they admit that they were fucking lying? That would like that would fuck up their whole thing. Also, those, some of those guys spent way too much time sitting in a room and writing for like literally months on end. So you don't let go of that. You don't turn your back on that. And also, you know, they had a vague quasi hallucination where they kind of thought they saw the plates sort of once.

Right. And remember it more and more vividly every time they told the story. For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, and then we get to see where like Martin, like, Martin's in still in the church after they've kicked out Joseph Smith and they've moved on to new leadership. And they're like, and I think we can all agree this book of Mormon is stupid and it's nonsense. And Martin stands up and he says, says it's not stupid It's not nonsense. You're all going to hell. You're stupid. And then he just sits down and like is like but proceed But I am a member of this church now and not the other one. So yeah, thank you for having me Although you are gonna all burn hell for being part of this church that I'm part of yeah And then we cut over to Navu

the church that I'm part of. Yeah. And then we cut over to Navu, right? Where Joey and the Mormons are starting over once again. Why don't ask no reason? Just they decided that they wanted to go else where God was like, you know what, further west then. It's like the 17th move in the movie, guys. Do we maybe want to know? They just moved. And I just see a mosquito creek. I love. Because of how appealing that's how it's gotten to the point where they they're literally not even set. They say Navu. They don't even say Illinois. They're just they've given up really, really unexplaining anything.

It's just like, uh, and then we went to Navu. I don't know. It's a way all the way run all the way to the western border of the country at that point. No, no, we had a kept running us off from there too. I, I love this part of the movie because it's very clearly someone's Oliver Cowdry. Joseph Smith making up fan fiction. Yes. Right?

Because let's be clear. They never made up. Nope. Right. Joseph Smith died. And Oliver Cowdry showed up and was like, hey, now that that decals out of here, how about we do some genocide, huh?

I want the man on this side of the genocide in my ring. But what they have instead is a fucking twilight fan fiction of him waking up and being like, oh, my good friend Joseph, I have so many regrets that I'll never speak about publicly or right down anywhere about my good friend Joseph. I have so many regrets that I'll never speak about publicly or write down anywhere about my Friend Joseph. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. And again, the movie is so confused by itself at this time that Joseph Sends a letter that he's not writing. He has his brother send a letter to Oliver We cut to Oliver reading the letter and then a chiron comes up on that scene that

says four years after the death of Joseph. Right. So apparently that led up movie took four years to get to him or he spent four years reading it. It was so confusing. And then we get this weird montage, dream montage that Oliver's having of like all of these moments with Joseph and his and then it ends with I died. I literally died. I was laughing so hard Joseph being shot in the jail and falling out of the window and Oliver and his wife are somehow

underneath Joseph who's the camera is looking directly up and it's this weird green screen of, of Joseph falling down. I was, I, it's worth it. I thought he was going to look up and he was going to be on the ceiling covered in Rose Petals American Beauty style. That's what I was really expecting at this point in the film. Yeah. We get Ollie's nightmare about Joseph Smith dying right before you could say, I forgive

you and I'm sorry and you were right. So Oliver goes to a Mormon congregation to fucking fight his nightmares or whatever, but will they welcome all of her back as one of their, so they, so they welcome all over back as one of their own. Nothing happens there. This guy reaches out his hand. I really want like the, he goes up to the, to the bishop of the, who's talking to the congregation there.

And he, and the bishop walks up to him with a serious face and then reaches out his hand for a handshake. And I really wanted him to do that whole yank it away and smooth his hair. Yeah. All right. I've gotten him so good. And he's like, he's like, it's so good to see you Oliver.

And we're all like, do we met this character yet? Who is this? It's the person we're character that we know. And then he's like, why don't you give a speech right now on the spot? Oliver and Oliver's like, woof, man. Okay, shit, Jesus. But oh, he did have a little something prepared. Hello, everyone. I just, oh, oh, God, I didn't

even really know what to say. Pulls out cue cards. I seek not to be the leader of this church. Yes, I do. Again. I just want to be a good member. Right. We do a little genocide. Well, his actual speech is I failed when I tried to start my own religion. So I'd like to be part of yours again. And then I get, no, okay, we need what we, we'll take what we can get at this point. I'm glad that you guys were paying attention because at this point, my eyes had glazed over so much and all I could focus on was the fact that there was an extra in the front row of the congregation that looked that thought he was in the sopranos. Absolutely. Yeah. No, there was jelly was in the front row of the congregation that looked that thought he was in the sopranos. Absolutely. Yeah. No, there was jelly was in the front row for sure. He had literally resting forget about it face. It was amazing.

But the congregation on Nas, they'll take Oliver back so he gets rebaptized and then and everyone lived. Yeah. Right. Yeah. now we get, we cut to the interview. I guess now it's like they've interviewed all night, you know, and now it's early the following morning. And the interviewer guy is like, okay. So is it at least possible that Joseph deceived you when he showed you the plates? And I'm like, that's actually an overstatement of the effort Joseph Smith put into it. I did not get hypnotized. Do you hear how in pain and response that is

to are you wrong? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. He's like, is there any way you could be mistaken? And he's like, no. And I'm like, there's a great reason not to trust someone. He literally the only wrong answer to that question. Right, yes, yes. Yeah, is there any way this was a hallucination? And he's like, I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears, which is I guess exactly how a hallucination would feel.

So. A hallucination's work like, yeah, yeah, he's like, I'm not foolish enough to be deceived. And I'm like, oh, that's music to a con man's ears. Jesus Christ, you idiot. How could he hypnotize my ears? My ears weren't watching the watch. You sound like an idiot.

You sound like an idiot, right? So, and then we go back to the flashback one more time. And we're back to 1833 and Independence, Missouri. We've gone further west. Yes. And the Mormons are, we've caught back up with them getting run out of town moment. The die for a lie bullshit moment from the beginning. Yeah. Right. So they, they round David up again. They put them in the middle and they're like, we're going to shoot everybody. Unless you admit that you were lying about the golden plates and he's like, I cannot tell a lie. And they're like, okay,

we're kidding. We weren't going to really shoot you though. Okay. Let him go. And the and he's like, I cannot tell a lie. And they're like, okay, we're kidding. We weren't gonna really shoot you though. Okay, let him go. And the whole crowd's like, what? Yeah. Come, wait, what? What are we doing? I thought we were here to kill these guys. No, this never actually happened.

No. So we get up. That's actually a martial who just showed up at his door and was like, you're a fraud. And the guy was like, no, I'm not. And we were like, we're gonna get the fuck out of town. But I'm this scene did actually break my heart, though. That level of overacting is genuinely painful to me.

It's hard to watch. Yeah. For sure. It's a little rough. So okay. So then we cut back to the interview one last time to wrap things up. We have to clarify because we never saw within the movie We never saw Martin Harris see the plates. Yeah, but he's one of the three witnesses So as sort of an afterthought they're like, oh wait, didn't you say that Martin Harris was supposed to have seen the place They're like and he's like yeah, he remembered later that he actually had seen them on that day that we see was in an

Embarrassing fight in front of a room full of people and stood up and screamed I saw him place in an angel. Yeah, exactly right. Right. He told us later that he had actually seen the place. That's how truth works, right? We're now in the fan fiction of the someone's because that's Martin Harris's fan fiction, right?

Right. So who was embarrassing him in front of a church congregation once and he was like, actually, what happened is Edward and Jacob one time they went to Europe together and as they were on the balloon, and it's on my fucking fan fiction page and you can't take it down. You can't you can't take A03 down because it's there forever. So we flash over to Martin praying for the plates and he still can't see him. And he cries for the absence of holy revelation. But then Joseph Smith kneels down beside him and he prays even better.

And God changes his mind and shows fucking Martin the headlights. Not before like Martin finishes his prayer and Joseph just stays kneeling and Martin kind of looks over at him and is like, oh, so he's like, I guess I'll just get up and walk away then and he literally stands up and starts to walk away with Joseph just kneeling there. And then the miracle happens and brings him.

Right, then Willem gets to see the sale boat, yeah. And to be clear, right, if we were to accept Martin's narrative, the rest of Martin's narrative where he loses his faith is fucking insane. Right. If I saw an angel right now in the middle of his podcast, I'd stop podcasting. Sure would make the almost done five minutes hand gesture and keep going. Martin left the Mormon church. He saw an angel and it presented him with golden plates and he was.

They all did. Yeah. Yeah. It's fucking insane. So yeah, and then, and then so we come back to the interview and David's like, so Mr. Kelly come back to the interview. And David's like, so Mr. Kelly, do you believe me? And he's like, I'm not going to exactly say that I do because I'm actually a historical person, right? But I'm not going to say I don't believe you either. Well, because that's the best we could do because the whole framing of this movie is based on the one interview that makes the most that puts them in the best light. So right. Yeah. Well, so and I that's worth point. Now, thank you Dan for bringing that up, right? Because again, famously, David was the most interview to the witnesses. He would talk to

anybody that would listen to him. And almost everybody came away saying, well, guys, obviously full of shit, but there was this one guy that wrote for the fucking Charleston observer star or something that wrote one article that said, well, he definitely seemed genuine and seemed to believe what he was telling me. And that's the one they've built this entire movie room. That's why they have to act like David was all reticent to talk to him, right? Because if they admit, well, actually, he talked to hundreds and hundreds of reporters in his lifetime, then they also have to admit that 999 of them thought he was full of shit. Right. Right.

Yep. So, yeah. And then there's this stupid fucking reveal, right? Because he's been whittling at this damn box the whole time. And the reporter's finally like, he's like, I can see you really want me to ask what's in that box. So what's in that box? And he's like, well, this box has the letter I was talking about earlier.

He's like, I didn't seem like much of a real deal. And he's like, and a handwritten copy of the book of Mormon. Yeah. And of course, we're supposed to be Mormons watching this movie. And we're supposed to look at that the way that like I would look at that, like handwritten notes from the guy who made space invaders or whatever from back in the day or something. But then like even the movie has to be like, right, but this isn't evidence of anything because we all agree that a book was written. Right. Is it right? I just thought maybe you would like to see it. Yeah, but this is the original handwritten manuscript minus the first hundred and some

odd pages. Yeah. Right. It's actually even funnier than that because it's not he says the printer's copy. Yeah. Right. And the reason the reason he says printers copy instead of the printers copy is the grammatically correct version would be a printers copy of which there were several dozen distributed.

Right. This would be like me being like, I have this authentic Kevin Sorbo autograph. Isn't he still alive? Yes. Although this, that copy would still be worth a lot because that is before they made all of the literally four thousand plus edits that they've made since that time. So it'd be neat to be able to see like what it actually, like how crappy. If whatever you read, it was bad. That one's even worse, right, times four thousand, right. Yeah. And so, and then

that's where the movie wraps that we get a little breakfast club clothes, you know, the thing comes on and tells us. And you know, all of her went on to do this. They they're curiously silent about the like and started his own schism off shoot religion. They don't mention that about anybody. They do mention the Martin Harris came back to the church and they say after 50 years out of the church, Martin Harris came back, which actually, it's a small thing, but the movie can't math. That was totally wrong.

It was 40 years tops, which doesn't matter in this game of things, but just fucking, do your math right, movie guy. We're gonna show you what kind of research these guys were actually doing. Yeah, like you got to carry the one. So. So yeah, but the book book of Mormon went on to be super awesome. And it all ends with once again with them saying, and none of the three men ever said that they were bunch of fucking liars.

And thereby lost all credibility to history. So they must not have been lying. Yeah, the end. It's funny because I have When you say to a Mormon, you know that all those guys left the church, right? They go, oh, but none of them ever denied it and it's like you didn't save anything. No, there's nothing There's nothing resolved by you pointing that out. Right. Yeah, but they didn't admit they were foolish. At best, you've made it a little bit more confusing, but like you didn't solve the problem. No. All right. Well, I'll tell you what,

Mormon Movie Month is off to a hell of a start. Thanks to you, Dan. Thank you so much for your help today, man. Thanks for having me, guys. Next time, choose a movie that isn't four hours long. Okay. No. No.

No. That there are to move Mormon movies that aren't four hours long. Okay. Um, you know, no, there are to move more movies that aren't four hours long. Sorry. And just one more time really quickly. If the listeners wanted to hear more from you, where should they go? Well, so there's think on a metheist that's one of the podcasts, where of the podcasts are. And the new show is data over dogma. If you want to learn a lot that you did not know about that Bible of yours. Yeah.

It's a great show. Great show. Of course, those will be linked on the show notes. And while that's going to do that Bible of yours. Yeah, it's a great show. Great show. And of course those will be linked on the show notes. And while that's going to do it for our review of witnesses, that's not going to do it for Mormon movie month because we still need more Mormonism for next week. So Eli, tell us what's on deck. Well Noah, we've finally found a grainy, multi-part YouTube copy of one of our most requested Mormon movies ever. We will finally be watching.

Baptists at our barbecue. Oh, really? This has been like a fucking like the the snipe of God awful movies. This one, the movie month began. The Mormon white whale. Yeah, that's pretty impressive. All right. So without doing forward tour, we're going to bring up episode 411 to a merciful close.

Hey, this is episode 411. Awesome. Once again, a huge thanks to Dan for all his help. We'll get links to his stuff on the show notes and perhaps even a huge thanks to all the Patreon and others to help make the show go. If you'd like to count yourself among their ranks, you can make a prep episode donation of patreon.com.

So I've got offline there by your own or an access to an ad free version of every episode. You can also help attend by leaving a five star review and by sharing the show on all your various social media platforms. And if you enjoyed this show, be sure to check out our sibling shows, the scaling of the aesthetic and the D&D minus and the Skype for Crud,

of the whoever podcast live. If you have questions, comments, or send a message, you can email gotoffemotes.gmail.com. Tim Robertson takes care of our social media. Our theme song is going to be performed by Ryan Slug, if we've dressed on Mars, all the other miscalusations are performed by our audio

engineer Morgan Clark and was used with permission. Thanks again for giving us a check your life this week for Heathen right in the live Boston. I'm no illusions, promise to work hard to earn another chunk next week until then. We'll leave you with a breakfast club close. Far too many hilarious things happen to all the people in this movie, but that's a podcast for another day.

Mormonism eventually did learn how to run a bank. Dan Beacher forgot about the breakfast club this day. The proceeding podcast was a production of Puzzle and a Thundersdorm LLC Copyright 2023. All rights reserved.