God Awful Movies - 418: Crazy Wise

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Starting point is 00:00:36 Look, I've been a lot of time around nut milks and I can tell you. Yes, yes. Psychoactive disorders aren't real. And I can tell you. Yes! Yes! Psychoactive disorders. Aren't real. Not awful. Movie! Movie!

Starting point is 00:01:04 Welcome back to the Gamecast where each week we sample another selection of Christian cinema because there's no real hell so sometimes you have to improvise. I'm your host No Illusions, he thought this week but sitting 900 miles away North East is my bad Fred Eli Bosnick Eli, how are you this fine afternoon sir? Oh this was not fun, this wasn't a fun one. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no makes sense this week. Yeah, no, that's exactly the, I'm gonna own this one. No, I was expecting exactly that greeting. So tell us, Cara, what will we be breaking down today?

Starting point is 00:01:52 So we are gonna talk about crazy wise, which is a documentary. Astrosk, yep. About, I think it's an indictment of our mental health care system, but also not a good way to address the systemic problem. I don't really know the point of this documentary except everything's bad and here's how you could make it worse. It's the point is that mental illness is actually magical.

Starting point is 00:02:22 I think, yeah. Yeah, that's definitely one of it. This is a documentary about the problems in our medical system in the way that if Indiana Jones had switched the statue with a baby, would be a solution to that. Yeah. Right. Like, it's not. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:02:40 It's worse than the problem they're addressing by 100%. Yeah. worse than the problem they're addressing by 100%. Yeah. And this is a super common strategy amongst Woo Merchants, right? Is they point to the very real problems in like, you know, like the stuff in evolution where like, you know, we don't actually understand

Starting point is 00:02:57 this part or the problems in modern medicine or whatever. And then they pretend that their Woo solution is therefore like, you know, wins by default or something. Yeah, exactly. And Eli, how bad was this movie? Well, if you love the deadly woo of our usual documentary fair, but you wish the damage was so directly on screen, you might categorize it as a snuff film.

Starting point is 00:03:23 You will love this movie. I do not. I did not. No, no, no, no love for this movie. So is there anything you guys want to nominate this one for being the best of being the worst at? Yeah, for me, this was like the best worst final exam for a formal logic 101 class. It was kind of like, sure, if A equals B and B equals C, then C equals winged

Starting point is 00:03:47 things. Yeah, exactly. I was like, I have no fucking idea where they're going with any, like every scene. We'll get there. We'll get there. Yes. Really hard to find. The their fours was like looking for Waldo in this damn thing. Yeah. So I was gonna go with best worst content to try to make jokes about. We sure. We like. Yeah. Whoa. So now the thing is,

Starting point is 00:04:11 is that as an indictment of the mental health care system in America, we're gonna follow a couple of people who have mental illness. And, you know, their stories are not great. And we're sitting here going like, yeah, I am super empathetic to this person. I feel really bad about a lot of things that happened to him, including being included

Starting point is 00:04:27 in this fucking propaganda piece, right? Mm-hmm. So there will be a lot of, and there's nothing funny about this thing kind of thing coming up just for warned. Mm-hmm. Consider yourself warned. And I'm going to go with best, worst, tricking Kara into thinking this movie is just about treating people with mental illness better because podcast listener, I don't know if you've picked

Starting point is 00:04:49 this up in the rare visits we have for Dr. Santa Maria on our podcast. So she is a deeply empathetic person who is very concerned with the well-being of patients and how they're treated. And so her notes are a horrible battle against Stevenson's right. Where she's like, okay, that is true, but the thing, okay, now I don't know what you're talking about. God, now they're bringing up the, I actually really wrote a paper on, you know what, it's fine.

Starting point is 00:05:19 If I could have thrown her into a swimming pool with ankle weights on, I think it would have been a less conflicting situation than watching this film. My God watching the dissent and the snow. So at the beginning, it's all like, well, guys, I think that this is actually making a really good end by the end. It's like, oh, fuck this guy so much. No, I got it. Yeah, this whole like time is just going to be Eli making off-color jokes, us groaning, and then me going, but here's the thing you got.

Starting point is 00:05:50 Right. It's going to be like the whole episode. Right. Set up your counters at home, everybody. Yeah. All right, well, we have a whole truckload of refutations we need to back into the dock here. So we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we'll dive into all the

Starting point is 00:06:04 incidentally homicidal bullshit that is. Crazy wise. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hi, I am soon to be Dr. Cara Santa Maria. I'm Jagler No Illusions, and I'm Magician Eli Bosnick. If you're struggling with mental health, a person with my qualifications is a great resource. And a person with my qualifications can show you a card trick. Now based on this week's episode, we understand that it can be hard to tell the difference between a doctor like Kara and me, a guy who can throw things in the air and then catch them, but that's why there's better help.

Starting point is 00:06:41 Better help is entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapist any time for no additional charge. Where as I can switch a two of diamonds for a king of clubs, also for no additional charge. Let therapy be your map with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash awful today to get 10% off your first month. no additional charge. All right, everyone.

Starting point is 00:07:22 Welcome to the first writers' room meeting for crazy wise quick go around here. I'm Peter. I'm a photographer who has decided I've got something to say about mental healthcare. I'm going to be directing the movie. Well, it sounds valid to me. You certainly have something to contribute to this conversation. Hi, everyone. I'm grand de Malla. Hi, priestess of the Shoto Oto healing tribe, but you guys can call me Ashley. I didn't particularly enjoy art school. And now I kill people with nonsense.

Starting point is 00:07:52 So I don't have to feel inferior to my sister who's a lawyer. Hey, my sister's a lawyer too. Why does the carpenter? Guys, guys, we all have competent family members who talk about us and whispers. Craig, how about you introduce yourself? Oh, right. Sorry. I'm just a therapist, a bad one. You know, I'm just kind of not interested in helping people as much as I am sort of an outgrowth of the celebrity therapist culture of the late 80s, early 90s, I'm just like a bad guy, I'm a bad guy. Mm-hmm, yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:27 All right, well I am super excited gang. Now why don't we get out here, find some incredibly vulnerable people and then literally endanger their lives. Yeah, that's great. I have paintings of naked ladies in my house. Yeah, no, we all do, Ashley, all of us. Okay.

Starting point is 00:08:46 And we're back for the breakdown. And in a preview of what kind of carelessly dangerous shit this movie is going to have to say we open on a quote that seems to dare people prone towards self harm. The quote is the wound is the place where the light enters you. Yeah, for the record that quote by I think it's a roomy quote is about love and the pain of loving other people. It is absolutely not about mental illness. Okay. Well, that's good to know in retrospect. Yeah. So we're going to start out by meeting Adam. And Adam is one of the people that we're going to be like empathizing with and feeling

Starting point is 00:09:19 sorry for getting stuck in this propaganda piece. The entire time Adam has a severe mental illness. And when we meet him, he's living out of his car. Yeah, this is the point in the document where I said, oh geez, this is a documentary about mental illness with a guest host who's a clinical psychologist on a comedy show. Why do you do this to me? Come on. There's got to be some yucks here, right? Yeah. So then I'm starting to try an armchair diagnosis, which I would usually never do.

Starting point is 00:09:48 Well, because he's giving us some of his symptoms, but he's not quite saying his diagnosis. So he's coming across, like he's describing some schizoaffective kind of symptoms. And I think ultimately, I think his diagnosis is bipolar with psychotic features or schizoaffective disorder, which is just for the people who don't know Sort of a combination between bipolar one. So you've got the manic and the depressive episodes combined with psychosis. So hearing voices

Starting point is 00:10:15 Well, I think you'll find that this movie he actually ends up diagnosed with needing a really good friend That's actually what it was. And in sort of a demonstration of his mental illness early on, we see him screaming into a pillow, which would be like, it would have hit harder if I wasn't doing that at the time I saw it trying to get my fucking internet to work. And I was doing it because I was realizing what I was walking. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:10:44 I was fine, everybody. I was doing through. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I was fine, everybody. I was fine. Yeah, no, I was doing this on purpose, doing great. So then we're going to meet our filmmaker Phil, who is a photographer, which really makes him overqualified to talk about mental illness. If you think about it, who goes around and takes pictures of indigenous people all over the world,

Starting point is 00:11:01 then let me just say great photographer. Oh, yeah. That is a beautiful, some good pictures. Yeah. Great depth. And yeah, other stuff, not so, not so much. Maybe he should stick to photography. You know how carousel, not out there like doing your fucking job, guy?

Starting point is 00:11:15 It's like that. And of course, this is, this is the point where I'm like, I'm not going to be able to make fun of this movie because at this point, we don't really know the thesis statement. Right. And they're talking about making meaning out of mental illness. And I'm like, oh, this is beautiful. I'm definitely with you on this. Like, I don't know where we're going.

Starting point is 00:11:34 And then we go. Right. But then the movie sort of sneaks its thesis statement in which is maybe mental illness is just being magical. Yeah. Yeah. They talk about, he's like, you know, I met a woman in this shmanic culture who clearly had what we would diagnose as a mental illness, but they thought that that was her blessing that made her magical or whatever, right?

Starting point is 00:11:55 Mm-hmm. Yeah. And they end it with this quote, he says, is there more to mental illness than illness than I wrote in my notes? No. Why would you say that about any other kind of illness? Imagine being like, is there more to this chicken pox than chicken and pop? No. Just an illness, man. Well, and that's the part that's so frustrating because I am on team,

Starting point is 00:12:19 let's make meaning out of our suffering. Sure. And ultimately, I feel like they try to bait and switch you a lot. Yes. Like, under the guise of let's make meaning out of our suffering, which is a logotherapeutic technique, which is like central to the work I do, they're then like, it's not really mental illness, it's magic. Right. Well, so, and that's the thing is, like like he opens on this great point, which is that in tribal cultures, the sort of the tribal community is better prepared to take care of a person who has a mental illness,

Starting point is 00:12:52 right? Because they're less likely to just be left alone in an apartment somewhere. And that's correct. So right, like, community is super important on this shit. And that's one of the things that we do really wrong in this country. So yeah, it starts off making some pretty good points. But he starts to say, like, you know, so as a photographer, I started wondering if psychological science was wrong and I was correct. So I went out there and I met some people and that was so we go back to his home in Seattle. This is where that guy that was living out of his car. This is Adam.

Starting point is 00:13:22 That's where we meet Adam again. He sort of starts telling us his story. He was normal growing up. He had a mental illness to start a manifest in his early 20s, I guess. Yeah, which is common with schizophrenia. Hey, guys, will you do me a super big favor? If there's ever, if my mental illness ever gets really bad and puts me in crisis, Will you please not let them do a documentary? We're there's that sad opening bit where everyone talks about how great I was and then for two of them, they're like, but then he fucking sucked. You put back before he was all broken and shitty. Yeah, oh, God. It was so awful. The defenders of this movie would say if we were to

Starting point is 00:14:02 talk to them and we won't because I would bite them, but if we were to talk to them, they would say, oh, it's about, you know, not letting labels affect you. And I just want to remind everyone that we're now at the, and then his brain broke and he was a piece of shit ever since. Yeah. Yep. Yep. A lot of that.

Starting point is 00:14:21 Yeah. No, he's, he's, he's, he hear from his high school girlfriend who seems to suggest that he has psychic powers. Okay. Let's be very clear. Okay. This is just a very nice thing that is ex said. I'm sure during the interviews, right?

Starting point is 00:14:36 But since one of the cowardly messages of this movie is maybe your magic. They are kind of trying to have it both ways here. Right. Yeah. No, Adam was totally normal unless he had a superpower. Right. Unless you found his mutant powers. Yeah. Right. Right. Well, again, they don't want to come right out and say it because it's such a ridiculous thing to say. But yeah, the the undercurrent of this movie is maybe what we think of as mental illnesses, your psychic powers trying to break through and your mind trying to rationalize that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:15:09 Yeah. But so Adam, after he got out of high school, he moved to Florida, which you can tell that like he probably wasn't entirely saying right, who would move to Florida on purpose. Kara, what did you do? Did you blow it with Adam? Stop. We just stop it. Stop it.

Starting point is 00:15:23 He's missing teeth. This is all coming together, Kara. Not yet. We just stop it. Stop it. He's missing teeth. This is all coming together. Cara, not yet. No, jumping ahead. Squares. Yeah. Cause he hadn't met you yet.

Starting point is 00:15:34 But then so so they throw out some stats here that one in five Americans will suffer a psychological crisis in their lifetime, which is both terrifying and lower than I thought it was, right? Yeah. And what is that? I don't really get what their specification is. What's a psychological crisis? Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:15:54 Like, are they saying they'll have a diagnosis because the numbers higher than that? Right. Yeah. No idea. They weren't really worried about what the numbers meant. This is also where we meet Akaya. She had a psychological crisis, whatever that means also in her early 20s. Yeah, she was having command hallucinations, which is not uncommon in schizophrenia or

Starting point is 00:16:16 schizophrenia effect of disorder. So basically hearing voices that were like directing her to do things and sometimes those things that they were directing to her to do were dangerous or harmful. And she was also having visual hallucinations of her deceased father. Yeah. But in all the interviews, by the way, she actually seems to be doing well with her treatment.

Starting point is 00:16:36 Yes. Yeah. Unlike Adam, who we follow through quite a bit of shit, yet it seems like we got a guy I'm almost entirely on the upswing a bit. Yeah, or not, not even on a good swing. I think she's, I think after watching the entire thing that she is stable on stable medication. Yeah, we hope. Because they never actually denied that. Right. Yeah, she never says she's not. Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So we go back to Adam. He starts talking about his

Starting point is 00:17:04 psychotic break and and like he's like, at first it was pretty awesome because I was feeling super creative and then I looked back over my notebooks and I'm like, oh, this is fucking seven. This is Kevin Spacey from seven. This is not good. Yeah, he was having a manic episode. Okay. And it's not uncommon that when people are manic, it feels good.

Starting point is 00:17:22 They're like, this is great. I'm immortal. I feel so strong. I feel so clear in my thinking. I can do anything. And then, yeah, once they swing back, they're like, uh-oh, that was problematic. And that's often when people also have some of those psychotic features like he had. Right. And also when people start, like, you know, checking themselves into a mental institution as he did at this point, right? Right. And if I can plant a little bit of a spoiler, whatever you think this movie is going to say about that manic episode, you are not ready for what this movie will end up landing

Starting point is 00:17:55 on about that particular manic episode. Yeah. So he says, you know, Adam says, well, you know, I went to the mental institution and let me tell you how that is, not the place to go to get better. And I'm like, oh, this movie's going to kill people. That was the first time I was says, well, you know, I went to this mental institution, and let me tell you, that is not the place to go to get better. And I'm like, oh, this move's gonna kill people. That was the first time I was like, oh, for sure, this is to get people are gonna die, because they saw this.

Starting point is 00:18:12 Now. Right, yeah, I put, oh no, here's where it gets dangerous, because it's like he goes there and don't get me wrong. A lot of inpatient psychiatric facilities, I have a lot of room for improvement, but that is a problem with our healthcare system. Right.

Starting point is 00:18:24 That is not a problem with psychiatric intervention. Cara. Yeah. I'm a simple man with simple standards, okay? As medicine doesn't work the first time, I immediately result to ancient traditions that are proven scientifically not to work. And if you don't like that, you're just going to have to bat a thousand, okay? And that's the argument, right? He goes into this inpatient thing and he's like,

Starting point is 00:18:48 there was a girl there and she scared me and they gave me meds and they made me feel weird. So I left after like three days and it's like no, no, no, wait. Right. You got to what? Yeah, they're like, you know, they kept putting me on different medicines and they I was I was having a bad time. I was throwing up and stuff. And it's like, yeah, man, like that's, like there's no like magic pill that makes everything fucking better. And they do have to like sometimes try out

Starting point is 00:19:11 a bunch of different medicines. And sometimes it takes your body a while to get used to the various medicine. It like I'm empathetic to that. I am, right? Like that's tough. That's a rough thing to have to go through. But it's still better than like, you know,

Starting point is 00:19:22 not doing anything about it and going on a fucking meditation retreat instead. Yeah, right. Imagine if we were doing a documentary about cancer and he was like, and then I was like, wait, this shit's gonna make me lose my hair. So I pull that fucker right out of my wrist and I'm like, yeah, yeah. Yes. That is exactly what happened.

Starting point is 00:19:41 And I hate this. He goes down the list of all the different meds that he's taken and he's like the first side effect of like all these meds is suicidal thoughts. And I'm like, no, it's not. No, it's like nausea or vomiting or something. It's not the first side effect of any of these is dry mouth. Come on. Yeah. Not only is it not the first side effect of any of these, it's only a side effect of a small subset of them. And we know that the reason that suicidal thoughts is a side effect of many antidepressants is not because the antidepressants make you suicidal. That can happen in a very, very small number of people.

Starting point is 00:20:17 But it's really because when you're deeply, deeply depressed, if you have been contemplating suicide, sometimes when you start to take the medications, you finally get your energy back, and that's when people will often complete the suicide. Yes, top of your due list. Oh, wow. I had no idea. That's interesting. And that's why it's risky when somebody starts meds that they really, really need to be checking in regularly, and they need to be observed. Oh, wow.

Starting point is 00:20:43 Yeah. And inpatient care is a great place to be observed. Exactly, exactly. So this idea, I don't know, it's just, it's just so much misinformation that pisses me off. Yeah. So, but this is where the filmmaker decides to, you know, he's like, I, you know, as a photographer, I probably know better

Starting point is 00:20:58 than all of these people. So it says in the movies, like, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna check with these experts and the very first person we see, the Kairan doesn't say psychologist or psychiatrist or licensed anything or any protected term whatsoever. It's fucking journalist author Robert Whitaker. Yeah. Right.

Starting point is 00:21:19 And he calls him a mental health expert. His job is anti mental health crusader. Yeah. We actually talked about him a little in the Scientology movie. In case you're wondering what kind of hard hitting science Robert is doing these days, his latest blog post is Ken Chat GPT defend the long term use of anti-psychotics in which he loses a debate to chat GPD about his entire life's work. Like, I don't want to send these people on any traffic. So incognito window that up.

Starting point is 00:21:51 But if you have never seen a man get cornered by a robot before, I highly recommend it. Oh my God. Yeah. No, this is where he makes this ridiculous claim that he's like, you know, they say it's to keep this chemical down in your brain. And I said, well, where's the proof that that chemical is bad? And he's like, oh, no, that chemical,

Starting point is 00:22:09 the psychologist told me, no, those chemicals are just metaphors. If I can what? Oh, yeah, nobody ever told him that. Like, what is he talking about? That sounds like something out of the dead parents' cash. What? What? I can't, I can't want this guy.

Starting point is 00:22:24 I called science and demanded that they give the evidence. And they said it was a palindrome. For my misunderstanding of a thing they didn't say and they could not produce it. Yeah. So, and then we meet Alan Francis and he strikes me as one of these people who like got into the documentary thinking he was just going to, it was just a documentary about some of the problems with the mental health care system in America and didn't realize the magic component was a part of it.

Starting point is 00:22:50 Oh, yeah. They totally, they totally like bait and switch this guy. Alan Francis is legit. He was one of the original authors of the DSM. He is very, very critical of the way that different iterations of the DSM have been drafted over the years. A lot of his critiques are really legitimate. There's some things that I disagree with him about.

Starting point is 00:23:10 There are many things I do agree with him about. And he is probably so pissed that they took him out of context in this documentary. Yeah. If I believed that Alan France's own to TV, I would feel bad for him for seeing himself in this. I need to write. No, I wrote my notes. I'm like, because I did a quick Google on them.

Starting point is 00:23:26 I'm like, well, he looks pretty legit, but the controversial treatment section of his Wikipedia page is longer than I'd want in my psychiatrist. He's a little shot-cabbie. We can say a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. A little bit.

Starting point is 00:23:37 A little shot-cabbie. I get it. Yeah. So we also meet this guy, Duane Stone. He doesn't have a Google signature. Couldn't find anything about him. But he thinks there's too many brain drugs and he makes the claim that everyone

Starting point is 00:23:49 who's ever used psychiatric drugs is just as bad off as they otherwise would have been. Yeah. On his website, he has this quote on his main page, which I thought I would read. I am one of the few private practice clinicians with expertise in and a dedication to addressing schizophrenia, bipolar, psychosis related to marijuana use and major depressive disorder. So no, take note, because this is not your guy to go to pieces.

Starting point is 00:24:16 He's the guy who figured out that those diseases. Oh, okay. That's nice. No. You know what great doctors do on a regular basis? I'm the fucking guy. I know that. I knew that before.

Starting point is 00:24:29 Maybe you were. Maybe you were. Do you know who I am? Yeah. Also, is this the part where they claim that like, because we've been taking meds for, you know, 70 years now, but mental illnesses going up, the meds are making us worse. Yes, because, yeah. Like, no, there's an infographic and everything.

Starting point is 00:24:50 We're not curing it, because if it was medicine, it should be curing it, Cara. Yeah, that's literally his argument. Like, if we've been treating it and it's getting worse, that means we're making it worse. And it's like, no, it's like, when we first started screening,

Starting point is 00:25:06 not first started, but we increased and improved cancer screening, right? And when we did that, guess what happened? It looked on paper like more people had cancer. Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like Wakefield's rise in autism, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:22 It's like this dude's up there being like, have you guys noticed how many new stars there have started existing since we got the James Webb thing? This is really the James Webb is making way too many stars. I'm so good. I tell him to stop. All right. And quick in case we're having too much fun here, we check back in on Akaya. She tells us about her multiple

Starting point is 00:25:47 Suicide attempts, right? This is when she first started taking anti-psychotics and she says at one point She's like, you know, it changed who I was completely and I'm like, okay, but but to be fair the who you were before that was walking into traffic So we needed to do right with suicide or some right amount of changing you right? Mm-hmm. And it is sad like her whole story sad right she started to Absolutely. And then she gained a bunch of weight she felt really like drugged up all the time This is a very common experience for people with schizophrenia or schizophrenia is that the drugs are heavy drugs And it's hard for them to adjust to them some people's quality of life does Look like or feel to them like it goes down,

Starting point is 00:26:27 but they are more capable of maintaining relationships. They are more capable of maintaining what we call their ADLs, their activities of daily living. And here's the annoying part is that she's being fucking exploited. Yeah, very clearly being exploited in this documentary. Yeah, and again, like probably like Alan Francis had no idea that she was what she was doing

Starting point is 00:26:52 was gonna be used for, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, but she's had a real rough go of it and so is Adam and it's the medicine's fault, dammit, because both of them were taking medicine, right? So that's the common link between them. We all have a simultaneous gasp in our notes, because it atoms like, no, no, no, no. After four years on, men's, I quit all my meds at once.

Starting point is 00:27:12 And I just wrote my notes, homicidally dangerous. Homicidally dangerous. Oh my gosh. Well, like the filmmakers lawyer made him put in a thing of like, which I've learned is not a good idea at all to do. You should do that. You should not do that. But it's fine, guys, because he did a 10 day meditation retreat.

Starting point is 00:27:31 Oh, my fucking god. And he came back all fixed and vegan. And which is so crazy. He's literally like, I quit all my meds. And then I went on this meditation retreat and I came back and felt great. And it's like, what if you had stayed on your meds and gone to the meditation retreat? How much better would you have felt? Sure. This is not a controlled study. You can't change two variables. And then say it's the second variable that caused the outcome. Yes. And he calls this thing that helped him the homeopathic meditative

Starting point is 00:27:59 approach. And look, he doesn't say I started taking a bunch of homeopathic bullshit, but I think that's the giveaway that he started taking a bunch of homeopathic bullshit, but I think that's the giveaway that he started taking a bunch of homeopathic bullshit on that meditation retreat. Either that or like a lot of people, he doesn't know what the word homeopathic actually means. Right. He thinks it means natural. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:28:19 He held hands with a dude. Yeah. So then our story takes us to the mountains of northern India, where we meet a monk that went into a trance and channeled an oracle, and the trance obviously was a seizure of some sort, right? Right. Or this guy watched a fucking magic trick slash post modern theater performance and was like, I am watching a very good alternative to mental health care right here. This is going to bring some of this back to the US. Yeah. Well, and the story is really kind of scary, right?

Starting point is 00:28:50 Because he's like, well, you know, this guy started having these seizures when he was a kid and everybody thought something was wrong with him. But then the monk said he was seeing visions. And so they took him in and started, you know, turning a profit off of him and we're like, what? And then that's over. We move on. Well, and like, my we're like, wait, what? And then that's over. We move on. Well, and like my interpretation is like, okay, so this, if this monk had a neurological

Starting point is 00:29:08 disorder, like if he actually had like a legitimate seizure disorder and these weren't function, I shouldn't say legitimate, that's unfair. If he had epilepsy and he wasn't having a functional neurological disorder, then I hope that they got him into seeing neurologist. If these were a manifestation of his mental illness, fine, they interpreted it within the frame of their beliefs. If he's not suffering great, but if he is suffering, if he's being exploited, they're leaving that out of the conversation. And that's the important point here. Right. There's nothing wrong with interpreting mental illness within the frame of your

Starting point is 00:29:44 culture and your beliefs. That is what mental illness is. Mental illness is a label that we utilize within the frame of your culture and your beliefs. But if he needs help and he's not getting help, that's fucked up. And playing pretend only gets you so far, right? The thing, the thing that this movie will talk about over and over again, and this muck is just the first of the many shamans will meet throughout this photographer's journeys. But like, the problem is that if it is a mental illness, right, and the bottom falls out of the play pretend protections that are built into that culture, there's no other alternative. It's not like the monks are like, oh, no, he's actually like really mentally ill. I guess we should, um, you should take him to St. Barnabas. Yeah, no, St. Barnabas has really good. No, they're just like, Hey, man, you're supposed to be channeling

Starting point is 00:30:31 the dead leopard or whatever the fuck you're doing. Yeah. So then we meet Sandra Ingramman, whose Kyron identifies her as marriage and family therapist, author, shamanic practitioner. Oh, yeah. And, and honestly, this part like piss me off is just a little thing, but is marriage and family therapist author, Shamanic practitioner. Oh yeah, and honestly, this part, like Piss me off, it's just a little thing, but whatever. It said Sandra Ingram and Kama M.A. Marriage and Family Therapist author, Shamanic practitioner. If she were an actual licensed marriage and family therapist,

Starting point is 00:30:59 it would say MFT or MFT. Oh really? So like basically she has a master's degree in something. Oh, wow. And then just, yep. Yeah. So, like, that was, like, really not cool. She's just hoping we don't know what letters mean.

Starting point is 00:31:14 We're like, no, there's an M there. It's like somebody being like, I'm a physician. And then they're, they're, they have, it's like so-and-so, comma, PhD, English literature. No, right. I can't do that. You can't do that. Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:28 She introduces herself by saying that when you have a psychotic episode, it can literally blow your mind. And I wrote my notes. I mean, not literally saying that with the murder. Come on. Yeah. No, but she's like, you know, when we have a spiritual experience, people often mistake that from mental

Starting point is 00:31:43 illness. And I'm like, oh, well, you can fuck all the way off the side of the earth with that bullshit. Also, by definition, that's not true. But definition in the DSM, if it has a religious valence or the individual identifies it as part of their culture, their religion, their spirituality, you can't diagnose it. It's the opposite of what she said. If somebody comes to me and they said that they communed with their God and they heard visions or they saw something like in a dream like state, that's not enough for me to diagnose them with having had a psychotic episode. Right. No, that's fair. I cannot diagnose that. Yeah. That's just that's culturally bound.

Starting point is 00:32:20 Right. Despite the rhetoric we have over on skatingathed atheist. Yeah, that's not what that means. I mean, look, two thirds of this podcast are pretty sure it's the psychotic episode. By definition, the mental health profession can't diagnose it. And she's literally saying that most of the time what we diagnose is that right. Exactly. Exactly. And this and for good reason. So we also meet Roger Walsh here from his Wikipedia page. I have to quote you this. Walsh is respected for his view on psychoactive drugs and altered states of consciousness in relation to religious spiritual experiences.

Starting point is 00:32:53 Citation needed. White people, white people, we got to just start doing DMT. Okay. You can't always be a career path. Just, just do drugs sometimes. path. Just do drugs sometimes. You just got into drugs sometimes. Sometimes. Is this the guy who literally says that,

Starting point is 00:33:12 and he lists countries, right? He's like, India, I don't remember, some other country. And then he says Africa, like it's a country. Yeah, the country of Africa. Yeah, that's Gabor Mate. Fucking, oh, we're not to get, oh, is it Gabor Mate? No, no, it wasn't. It was the other guy. It was the other guy. Oh, we're not to get out. It was a gap. No, no, it wasn't.

Starting point is 00:33:26 It was the other guy. It was the other guy. Yeah, go ahead and care. So he literally lists a list of countries with Africa in the list, which is in creating, because they're 54 fucking countries in Africa. And then he says that these countries are the best place to quote a B schizophrenic. First of all, legitimate practitioners don't say schizophrenic. They say to have schizophrenia because that's fucking pejorative. Secondly, but I already said

Starting point is 00:33:50 Africa is not a country. And third, there is a ton of evidence showing example after example of schizophrenia being deeply stigmatized in a handful of African countries, including people being accused of witchcraft and being shackled and held in cages. Literally, a human rights watch report in 2020 showed that 60 different countries, in 60 different countries, people with mental illness are shackled or caged. Jesus. The US is not on that list.

Starting point is 00:34:18 Yeah. And by the way, we started Voguearity for Charity, our annual fundraiser because there's an entire please don't burn your mentally ill family member organization that needed money. Yes. There you go. Yeah, exactly. So how is it that going there is better if you have schizophrenia?

Starting point is 00:34:36 I'm not saying we're perfect here, but that is fucking bullshit. And it's disingenuous, it pisses me off. You don't have to hang out with Roger Walson Africa, at least. Right, yeah, finished Jesus. Right, we also meet Gabel or Mate. I don't have to hang out with Roger Walson, Africa, at least. Right. Yeah, fantastic. Jesus. Right. We also meet Gabbo or Mate.

Starting point is 00:34:48 I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name right, but he strikes me as a person who is a probably very problematic on his own and B also didn't know what he was getting into with his bullshit. You're like, because he's not, I don't think he's this bad. He was the guy who like made a lot of press. I think it was last year when he publicly diagnosed Prince Harry with PTSD, ADHD and depression based on reading his book and interviewing him for a TV show. And then like live on television gave him his diagnosis. Yeah, you can't do that. No. Yeah. And Prince Harry was like, thank you for that. He also

Starting point is 00:35:19 has written before we feel too bad for him. First of all, he opened the arc of the covenant just a little bit. I don't know when he did it, but his eye bags know that he did. And he peaked. He's written extensively about how all mental illness comes from trauma. And so on his controversy's page is a bunch of his patients being like, Hey man, stop your fish. Stop it. You're fishing. He's like, no. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it was a very hard fall of your bicycle. Come on. Maybe something. Yeah. No, maybe it was a very hard fall of your bicycle. Come on, maybe something you're working with there. God.

Starting point is 00:35:48 Yeah, but no, but again, he is correct that when he says that tribal societies are better equipped to handle mental illness because of the structure of those societies, not because their religion is better than our medicine, though, which is what this movie is employing. Right. And also, yeah, like not be, they don't have access to, it's like the people might be

Starting point is 00:36:08 better equipped from a social, you know, safety net perspective. They are not better equipped from an access to mental health care perspective. Yes, right. It's not like if we flew Cara down in a helicopter and we were like, do you guys want to keep singing a song with your cousin or do you want the doctor to do something? They'd be like, get her the fuck out of here. We are doing our song thing. We love this.

Starting point is 00:36:28 Well, so what occurred to me as I was watching this is like, look, if we lived in a country that didn't have hospitals and doctors and you couldn't go to an emergency room, we would probably all know first aid better. Right. That doesn't mean that's the preferable situation, right? Right. Yeah. All right? Right, yeah. All right, well, I have a pillow that needs screamed into,

Starting point is 00:36:47 so we're gonna pause for a break, but we'll be back in a hurry with even more crazy wise. Tsk, tsk. Hmm, this is why in conclusion there is no... Kara. Eli, Noah, what are you doing here? Well, we heard you were defending your thesis and we wanted to help.

Starting point is 00:37:05 We made you soup. Why is it in a cloth bag? Well, you know, we figured with how hard you've been working, you probably haven't had a home-cooked bag a soup and forever. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's true, but guys, I'm actually eating great thanks to Factor. What's Factor? The Factor America's number one ready to eat meal kit can help you fuel up fast with

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Starting point is 00:38:20 Alright, I'm going to throw this bad boy in the freezer if you need it later. Please don't do that. Up. Little bit got on the freezer. Cuck. Lot of bit, actually. Because it's a bag. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:38:37 And then I said to her, actually, mom, the people of the new Nakati tribe have been naturally healing their diabetes for years. Wow. Has this ever happened to you? Are you sick and tired of living under the oppression of the Western world and ready to embrace the natural life of a simple time? Hi, I'm Pony D. From Pony D's House of Poverty Tourism. What's Poverty Tourism?

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Starting point is 00:39:38 Tony D's House of Poverty Tourism rushed to innocence, not the pharmacy. And we're back for more of this shit. We're going to rejoin the action with a support group for what this movie's going to call mental health system survivors. Because that's the term we use for sexual assault survivors. They, they took it because it's theirs now. It's like an assault. Yeah. This is where we meet Will Hall, who I have is poor man's Paul Rudd.

Starting point is 00:40:10 He's also an anti-psychiatric medicine crusader. Mm-hmm. I accidentally paused it on their planning meeting. Like when we see them planning their little like where are the survivors of psychology or whatever plan? And they have a sign behind them that says why not leave it to experts and then like a fucking pros and cons list of why it's okay. Is it your story not to leave it to exise?

Starting point is 00:40:32 Jesus Christ. It's fucking amazing. Wow. So Will Hall shares his story. He was suicidal and the mental health system made it worse. He's worse than suicidal now. Right. They locked him in and strapped him down

Starting point is 00:40:46 even though he wasn't hurting anybody. That's what you do, right, Kerry? You're just walking and immediately strapped people down and shackled them. Yeah, I don't use the strength I never have. I don't know what was going on with this guy. Well, and that's such careful language, right? Very clearly on purpose.

Starting point is 00:41:02 He's like, and they restrained me even though I was not physically attacking anyone at that specific moment. I 12 10 PM on June 20th. And you're like, okay. He also didn't say whether or not he was hurting himself, which is a right concern, for sure. Right. Yeah. So much of this anti-psychiatry stuff when it comes from the like victim of psychiatry thing is just a person who's like, well, I got into a raised voices argument with my therapist in 1992. And now it's my job.

Starting point is 00:41:32 Right. Right. Yeah. I also, in this situation, again, he says that he was diagnosed with schizophrenia, disorder system, yet another character in this documentary with schizophrenia disorder, which again is a pretty severe mental illness. I treat people with Skitsow Effective Disorder currently. And yes, they struggle with their meds.

Starting point is 00:41:52 It's really hard to dial in their meds, but I can tell you from a lot of experience and exposure, they struggle so much more without their meds. Right. Yeah, because these people are all going by a sample size of one. Right, I was gonna say, we should point out that Kara has more than one anecdote. So she technically wins according to this movie. So, yeah.

Starting point is 00:42:14 I'm not gonna eat. And there's one other moment that I have to talk about. He explains that they treated him like a second class citizen when they diagnosed him and like, hey, not to downplay how the mentally ill are treated in society, because again, that's a real problem. But maybe just white guys lay off the

Starting point is 00:42:30 heckin' class, it is insane speak, you know what I'm saying? Maybe that's not our term to use. We're about to cut over to back to the African-American lady who's dealing with schizophrenia. Maybe we don't call ourselves second-class citizens. And also the way he described his interaction was like super person centered. He was like, I went in and other than the thing where they, he said that they restrained him when he first got there because he was having an active psychotic episode.

Starting point is 00:42:55 He was like, I was there. They put me on some meds after I stabilized, they sat me down. They were like, listen, you have a really serious mental illness and it's going to take a lot of therapy and it's going to take a lot of Medicaid. And I'm like, what are they? What's wrong? Right, right. That sounds exactly like what you want. Yeah. Yeah, like a really kind of humanistic interaction with his therapist who's talking to him, like, you know, an equal partner. Like, it was just really weird. He's like, it was horrible. And then he goes on to describe like a kind of pleasant interaction.

Starting point is 00:43:24 Right. And then we get this series describe like a kind of pleasant interaction. Right. Well, and then we get this series of people all listing their diagnoses. And I don't know what the hell point they're trying to make except for like, you know, like I guess, well, there are a bunch of diagnoses. And therefore, psychologists don't know what the fuck they're talking about. I guess I'm sorry, summit cancer and liver cancer. Can we get these things right?

Starting point is 00:43:44 They know they're all at different parts of the body. Jesus. Yeah, no idea what they were going for there. And then they start shitting on the DSM. And again, like you said, there's plenty of good reasons to shit on the DSM, right? But like, but you don't like then decide that all of psychology is bullshit. Well, and that's the thing too. They shit all over the DSM, but they don't bring up like the ICD, the International Classification of Diseases. They only want to talk about the diagnostic and statistical manual.

Starting point is 00:44:13 We use both, and the ICD has way more diagnoses in it because it has every disease that you can diagnose in medicine. Yet, somehow, it's not okay to use a diagnostics and statistical manual in psychiatry, but like they're not going to touch the ICD with a 10-foot pole. Because they can't slip or re-slope their way into, well, we might as well not have medical diagnoses. Right. Like, it's infuriating too. I think the biggest argument that really pisses me off is that yes pathologization is a problem. I do agree that the DSM has probably so many

Starting point is 00:44:47 things in it that you could, you shouldn't be able to, but it's kind of like the first-year med student, you know, disease where like they read it and they're like, I have that, I have that, I have that. Right. Obviously, they don't actually qualify for the diagnosis. But here's the thing. Our managed care system requires that we actually pathologize certain diagnoses because if we didn't have it in the DSM, you wouldn't get reimbursement for it.

Starting point is 00:45:13 Your insurance would not pay for you to go to a grief counselor if you didn't have a diagnosis. Right. That's how it works. And I love this here because poor man's Paul Rudd call he says that the DSM is a sophisticated way of not listening to people as though cares just sitting there with it on her lap being like one second. No, no, ha, found you. Found you right here. I don't say that. Oh, do you have a lot of question marks? Only if you're garbage practitioner that's like saying the tone depressor is a sophisticated way of not listening to patients. It's a tool

Starting point is 00:45:47 It's not an oracle. It's not fucking oracle. They would probably prefer we use an oracle. Yeah, they would Right exactly. They're gonna fuck them and fucking oracles here in a minute. Yeah It's a tool like a mod So then we do another sit down with Adam and And this is where we learned, so Adam was going to these meditation retreats and he was like, oh yeah, I know, these are curing my mental illness. And then he had a psychotic episode while he was at a meditation retreat

Starting point is 00:46:14 and they're like, oh, you have a real problem. We don't do real problems here, man, I'm sorry. And like, hey, created to that meditation retreat, this guy was like, hey, I'm curing my schizophrenia here. And it's not taken that well this time. And they were like, oh no, you need to go get real medical care. We're for board hippies and Eli to sit still for 10 days. Like, this is not what you're here to do.

Starting point is 00:46:37 Yeah, you know, they show us the letter that's like, oh no, I see bullshit medicine only cares bullshit problems. So yeah, but this is also where he said, he says he had a traumatic memory resurface, No, I see bullshit medicine only cures bullshit problems. So. Yeah. But this is also where he said, he says he had a traumatic memory resurface, which I don't know. Like, that's a red flag to me, right? Yeah. That's not a thing.

Starting point is 00:46:55 Yeah. But he says he had a traumatic memory resurface of his grandfather molesting him and also his dad. But then he takes that one back later. Yeah. Two. So. And the movie, by the way, will

Starting point is 00:47:06 spend the rest of the film being like, oh, well, trust me, his grandpa definitely molested him and will save not to spoil the film or anything. Will save the fact that actually he admits no, thinking his dad molested him was just a delusion he was having until the end of the movie for the fucking breakfast club club. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. And then we meet this guy.

Starting point is 00:47:29 I haven't done his motivational speaker, Steve Mischemmy. This is Daniel Siegel. Oh, Dan Siegel. I've read a lot of Dan Siegel's work actually. He's like kind of, he's sort of legitimate, but I disagree with a lot of what he says. Well, he developed the field of interpersonal neurobiology. I don't know that, but according to Wikipedia, I do know that. Have you considered developing the field of interpersonal

Starting point is 00:47:51 and the blood-button? Right. I have read the book of interpersonal neurobiology. I don't know. It's really into it. Yeah, I disagree. Again, I disagree with a lot of it, but I, but I agree with a lot of what he says to like, I don't think he realized

Starting point is 00:48:05 that he was going to be in this movie. Absolutely. Cause this guy, this guy mostly is like communities are important. And mental illness gets worse when you don't treat it. And like, yeah, only this movie is contending that like communities are on one side of the fence and medicine is on the other. Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:24 Well, and he even kind of gives away the game that he doesn't know what kind of movies in because at one point he says, well, you know, of course, medication can be essential. And I'm like, I'm surprised the movie didn't just bleep that out. Seriously. It's like they keep starting to make points and then they don't finish them. Like they're like, psychiatry bad, psychosis. Good. Dot, dot, good.

Starting point is 00:48:45 Da, da, da, yeah. Like is this, is this what I don't know what this movie is about? I don't know what this movie is about. So frustrating. And they, well, they're, they're trying to be as slippery as possible about it, right? So you can't later say what it was about. So you can't make a podcast making fun of them.

Starting point is 00:49:02 Yeah. So we check back in on Akaya. She tells us about like her like the way that her mental health issues strained her friendships and how she lost friends over them and stuff. We meet her former best friend Maya. Yeah. And this movie definitely, definitely blames Maya for not being her fucking volunteer mental health counselor.

Starting point is 00:49:24 Oh, yeah. Right. Super fucked. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, and then we meet another one of her friends. It would seem weird that we were making such a big deal out of her old friends, but I think that that was the sort of this movie's way of saying.

Starting point is 00:49:36 So if you've got a friend who has mental health issues, it's your job to be their therapist or whatever, right? Like that's right. Yes. Yes. What they're saying. That's so what they're saying. I literally wrote that. Are they mad at Maya for being a friend and not a therapist? Why doesn't Akaya have a therapist? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Right. All right. So that we cut back over to Adam. He's living in his car, but he's found a coffee shop that accepts him like he is. So he's doing all right.

Starting point is 00:50:04 No. Hey, did you want to hate a hippie coffee shop by the end of this documentary? We'll get ready everybody. Here it comes. Because look, I have visited my wife's hometown multiple times. I have seen dozens of variations of this coffee shop as we pass two and from locations at our Seattle live shows, right? These hippies are just like, I got a tri-botatio when I went to Burning Man. Oh, Eli, it literally there's a sign of this as Wednesday night, this astrology night. Yeah. But like this movie accidentally proves the harm on just, yeah, bull shitting about whatever the fuck you want, right?

Starting point is 00:50:45 Because I'm sure they just walked up to these patchouly covered hippies and we're like, what do you think about that guy Adam who sits out front and plays drums? And they're like, yeah, man, what he needs is love, sweet love. Right. No one sat them down and was like,

Starting point is 00:50:58 hey, just so you know, we're actually using you as a substitute for medical intervention, right? And then these motherfuckers can't get a bank account using you as a substitute for medical intervention. Right? These motherfuckers can't get a bank account, let alone fucking medical intervention. Well, yeah, the right, they interview his barista and she's like, well, I think that, you know, the psychologist have it wrong when it comes to Adam. I'm like, why the fuck would anybody care what you think? That's what I wrote.

Starting point is 00:51:20 Why do I give a shit with this coffee shop owner thinks about right to live? Right. Why the hell do you think you get a vote on this shit? Look, I've been a lot of time around nut milks and I can tell you Psychoactive disorders So then we meet Robert Thurman, he's professor of Buddhist studies at Columbia. So he's also an expert in mental health. Yes, obviously. Right.

Starting point is 00:51:50 This is the guy who's like, well, maybe society is crazy. I'm like, okay, dude, but that's like metaphorical, okay? He's stopped. Right. Stop, man. Like, that's what I'm talking. So much of this movie is just, you have to stop, though, because there's an actually mentally ill person in the movie.

Starting point is 00:52:05 Right. Right. Like you can't, you can't do your like maybe we're the crazy, it's like, no, he, Adam, that guy, he's the crazy one. We found him. He needs your help. Stop rising him as a metaphor. Please. Yeah. But in case Robert Thurmond was too credible, we also meet Rochie Joe Halifax, Buddhist teacher Zen priest and anthropologist. That's not a protected term. You can just call yourself one of those. You can just say that. Yeah. He's just starting to fucking polygists. You can be a Zen priest. I thought those things were like in conflict with each other. Oh no, you can be a Zen priest.

Starting point is 00:52:38 Oh, okay. All right. Sure can. You can be a Zen priest and my aunt of the same age. You know, good to know. There's stories. They're fun. So yeah, but she's like, you know, I'm not against doctors or medicine or hospitals. I just inhibit them professionally as all. Right. Is this the same woman who's like isolation is bad for your mental health. It's like, yeah, nobody's arguing that that's not true. Right.

Starting point is 00:53:07 Who's describing isolation? So, except for maybe Adam's meditation retreat. Yeah, right. Exactly. Right. We also get a quick visit with John Reed here. He's a very famous anti-ECT guy. He's the Andrew Wakefield of ACT, if you will.

Starting point is 00:53:24 Oh, no. Okay. He informs us that when people hear voices, only's the Andrew Wakefield of ECT, if you will. Okay. He informs us that when people hear voices, only in the West do we think it's bad. Yeah. Right. He's like, you know, in the East, they think it's, that means that you're magic. And I'm like, or cursed by demons, dude. Right. Also just a magnificently racist thing to say.

Starting point is 00:53:42 Yeah. Well, that just, you know, no, let me tell you, anyone whose eyes do them, they love hearing voices. It's like free air pods to them. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. He also does that bullshit thing again, where he's like, but here,

Starting point is 00:53:56 everybody just thinks mental illness is biological, and you should just medicate it. And I'm like literally nobody thinks that. Nobody thinks that. Literally nobody thinks that mental illness is only biological and that it only requires medication. We literally use something called the bio-psychosocial model.

Starting point is 00:54:12 That sounds like more than just medication. Yeah, that's the stress model. Yeah, that sounds like it's more than yeah. It's all the things, it's therapy, it's social support, it's all the things. Well, and then so then we have to meet this Native American guy. And first of all, I love the introduction. He's like, so I was mentoring Native American photographers one day.

Starting point is 00:54:29 I'm like, dude, you're like Eli when he got done working that, like doing the volunteer working that soup kitchen, try to work it into conversation. It's just calm down. Spoon, spoon. You know what that reminds me? Yeah, right. It's crazy. But no, but and this is something we're going to see.

Starting point is 00:54:44 This is going to become a bit of a theme of the last half of this documentary, right. It's crazy. But no, and this is something we're gonna see. This is gonna become a bit of a theme of the last half of this documentary, right? Because this guy's like, yeah, he was having psychotic episodes. And so they took him to a medicine man who said, ah, you should be a medicine man. I'll train you for a very small fee. Do we just all take a little bit of percentage of your-

Starting point is 00:55:00 It's a low, low price of $9.95, yeah. Right, and then that guy explains that if you are called to be a medicine man and you don't answer it, that can manifest as a mental illness that could kill you. Yeah. So, you know, what? Yeah, that's the point that this guy's making. I never even considered that I should be a medicine man. Let's do this thing.

Starting point is 00:55:20 Yeah. So, we checked back in with Akaya. She talks about how she was in a mental hospital. I have her first suicide attempt. She was in a mental hospital for six weeks. And then she was referred to a homeless shelter after that. And I'm like, yeah, man, that's fucking awful. It really is absolutely terrible that that's the help that we can offer in this country.

Starting point is 00:55:40 Yeah, no, it's terrible. Yeah. This is like, what is the point of the scene? She basically says at the end that she knew, she attempted suicide and then she woke up in hospital and she knew that a higher power wanted her to be alive. And hey, if that is how she makes meaning, she uses religion to make meaning, that is valid for her.

Starting point is 00:55:56 Whatever it takes. But to be clear, to be clear, the reason she survived is because they saved her life in the hospital. Right. That higher power was an EMT on a smoke break, but you know, it's cool. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, God did not intervene there. Take that credit away.

Starting point is 00:56:12 So then we cut to Adam's singing, and if you want me to stop sympathizing with the guy, that's a great start, right? Oh, it's so bad. It's so bad. I feel bad saying that, but it's like probably I haven't done all the episodes. I've only done a handful of the episodes and there's a lot of bad music in these movies, but wow, was this bad? And they like, they let it go on for too long. Yeah, they really leaned into it. Yeah. So then we meet Albert Violdo. Violdo, I guess. He tells

Starting point is 00:56:42 us about the way of the wounded healer. He reinforces this idea that if you have a mental illness, that's really a calling and that you're supposed to be a healer. Right. Right. And then you get seven healers under you and then each of them has 70 healers under them and then you're crazy healthy. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:56:59 And we also like briefly flash over to Adam's friend who like just very clearly hung out with him for a while I was like, yeah, no Adam recommended meditation and I found that useful as a non mentally ill person who had had difficult Experiences and they were like psychic healing powers transmitted through ancient bloodlines exactly Also to be fair, I think of a point that we need to make here is that meditation is a psychological intervention. Like does the filmmaker not know that we use mindfulness practice in psychology all the time? Sure, the fuck doesn't. It's a very clearly evidence-based treatment.

Starting point is 00:57:39 Like wow, okay. Yeah, this is also where crazy lady chimes into really give us the hard core crazy here, right? She's like, how can we see psychotic breaks is a bad thing? They release the angels. And she also says, there wouldn't be Buddha or Jesus without psychotic breaks. And I wrote in my notes. I mean, I agree with you, lady, but I don't think I agree. But what a fantastically privileged thing to say for this middle class white lady who doesn't have a mental illness, right? Jesus. But this is also the part of the story where Akaya finds bullshit, right?

Starting point is 00:58:16 Like she's, if I find some kind of bullshit, you can wish magic your way out of mental illness. Or actually, I don't know, right? Because the way that they presented it actually could have been a good service that she found. You know, the documentary is trying to be really coy about what she is and isn't doing. Right. Well, it's like she went to a community center where she like painted and made music. And she said in it, I did this through the cloud of medication. So she's literally saying, I'm still taking my meds. Then I went and found social support.

Starting point is 00:58:49 So she's doing all the things that are recommended in well-rounded treatment for mental illness. And they gave her a job. Yeah. Right? The truth of the matter is they keep showing us this sign about like healing spiritual circles and showing her sitting in front of a candle

Starting point is 00:59:05 But like true to the matter is the reason these things work is because of community and having a social support network That's what she found and the fact that WooMasters are trying to claim this in opposition to medicine While she's telling us she was taking medicine. Yeah, he's so fucking infuriating Well, especially because they're turning a profit off of it, right? Like if this was just some community service they were offering, but these people are selling this shit. Yeah. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:59:35 So and there's also John Reed comes in and explains to us that with all our sophisticated methods and medicines, only one third of people diagnosed with schizophrenia in our country recovery, but in tribal societies where they don't actually diagnose it, the recovery rate is way higher. It's how the fuck I know that is beyond anyone's reckoning, but I left so hard when his second half of that sentence was way higher. I almost fell out of my when he was like, yeah, it's one third here and there it is more bitter than this. You can quote me on that. I'm a doctor. Yeah. So then we also, we meet Carol Dunham who builds herself

Starting point is 01:00:15 as a medical anthropologist. She lives in Nepal and it's a good thing too. Because if she lived in the West, she'd have been diagnosed with a mental illness and locked away or something. Even though she doesn't, yeah, she doesn't describe what any of that is. And she makes, it pisses me off because she makes a lot of good points. And this is like not, not that was not a good point, but she does make a lot of good points. This is that thing you see all the time with pseudoscience,

Starting point is 01:00:39 where there's this sheen of legitimacy. And it's like they're making all of these arguments that anybody who works in mental health would make about having well-rounded sort of multi-dimensional intervention. Yet somehow, instead of just being like, let's have an inclusive approach to care, they go, therefore, meds are bad. And I'm like, right, are you getting that? And what's so funny is that they are often sneaking in the back door of like, we just want people to have a holistic approach and also use our ideas. And then the minute

Starting point is 01:01:12 they get in the door, they're like, you got to get off those fucking meds, man. Yeah. And our ideas are the fucking highway. Yeah. So dangerous. I'd also this whole time. And again, the privilege here is just disgusting because we're , we're looking at these like just obscenely poor Nepali farmers and we're supposed to be going those lucky bastards not having to put up with the curse of Western medicine free.

Starting point is 01:01:33 Oh, yeah, subsistence farming the dream. Am I right, everyone? Yeah, right. Haven't you always wished you were a rainstorm away from freezing to death? Let's get in it. Let's get it going everybody. Also, you know what? To be fair, that really does piss me off. And it reminds me that throughout this film, he goes to these different countries.

Starting point is 01:01:52 And then he talks about it as if the people in the country are experiencing this thing, but he's only going very often into very rural tribal communities. Right. So he's talking about these things that are happening in very, very small, tightly bound communities. And then he's applying it to the whole country as if these countries like Nepal don't have a healthcare system. Right.

Starting point is 01:02:15 No one is just like, are you fucking kidding me right now? Just bundles of grass that everyone eats for breakfast. Also, he keeps switching between communities like they all believe the same thing. Exactly, because they're all just brown people. He's basically like the brown people believe in magic. Nepal, Mongolia, Ecuador, Native Americans, no difference, all the same. By the end of the movie,

Starting point is 01:02:39 he might as well be like, you know, bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Come on, poor people. You know, poor people who would slip my throat for a chance to live with the luxury that I live with. They're doing magic. Yeah. No, it's just speaking with, like, right at that very moment, we like, we slide from Nepal

Starting point is 01:02:56 to Ecuador, like, you know, just to next door over here in Ecuador, because he wanted to write off a lot of travel, I guess, but he's hanging out with his Amazonie and tribe. And he explains that, you know, they don't want this medicine. Like, we've got, they're happy with their roots and their meditation practices and their fucking shape shifting into jaguars. Oh, the jaguar thing. We meet this tribe hunting monkeys for food and his first words about a mar. Lucky. Oh, the monkey they can eat. Oh, it's awesome here. Monkeys for food and his first words about him are lucky.

Starting point is 01:03:26 Oh my monkey, they can eat. Oh, it's awesome here. Yeah. Yeah. This scene is so weird to me. They claim that this guy, this medicine practitioner is shape shifting and taking on the spirit of a jaguar. And so he like films him making these weird noises, but really I think he's just sleeping.

Starting point is 01:03:47 Right. It's just like a half-signoring. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. He's like a trust to say it looks like he's just dreaming, but it's magical. It's magical dreaming that he's doing right there. It's Jaguar breath. Jaguar dream. Jaguar breath. So. All right. Well, to you what, that whole segment left my room smelling like patchouli, I need to take a break and air it out, but first of all, you have to be the hard sell. Will this movie make another good point about the failing of America's mental health system? Will this movie then shit on it with Wu? Will this movie then repeat?

Starting point is 01:04:16 Find out the answers to these questions more when we return for the insidious conclusion of crazy wise. Sure, la la, acapa. No, no, Cara, it's not sure. It's Oro, then. Oro, then, course. Thanks. Hey, guys, what are you doing?

Starting point is 01:04:34 Oh, didn't you hear Noah? Cara's coming with us to QED this year. I mean, I'm not coming with you. I just happened to be speaking there also. Oh, mean distinction to draw. Anyway, we've been brushing up on her man Chestium. Man Chestium? I think it's Chestamanium.

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Starting point is 01:06:04 Because sometimes Andy Wilson is too beautiful to understand. Did he speak English? No, I get it. I get it. Thank you. Yeah. So I just drink it. You just drink it down.

Starting point is 01:06:17 Clean your right out. Huh. Guys, what are you doing in my laundry room? Oh, hey, Cara, I'm taking an inside bath. I feel like I'm going to regret asking this, but what is an inside bath? Oh, yeah. I was showering this morning, right? And I slipped and fell, and it really hurt.

Starting point is 01:06:37 Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah. Thank you. So there I am, wet and hurting, and Noah walks in, and he's like, hey, did you know you can actually skip all that by just drinking a little bit of laundry detergent. It's true, you can. I'm not going to ask why Noah walked in on you in the shower, but I also need to tell you that Eli, you can't do that.

Starting point is 01:06:56 That's really dangerous. Uh, wow, Cara, maybe you didn't hear me, but I slipped and fell and it hurt me. Yeah, I mean, have a little empathy, okay? Nope, nope. I am empathetic that you had a bad time with the traditional shower experience, but drinking laundry detergent will harm you. It will actively do you harm. I don't know.

Starting point is 01:07:21 Will it? Is it crazy to think that maybe the way we shower is wrong? Like, I think it's really unfair, the double standards women are held to about personal grooming. I think you can drink laundry detergent to bathe, and I think black lives matter. No, no, you, you can't just squeeze a bad dangerous idea in between two good ideas. Wow. Kara thinks black lives don't matter.

Starting point is 01:07:44 That is what I am going to behave like I heard as well Noah. Oh my God. You guys look, it is really important that you understand this. Systems are not perfect, but the answer to those problems is never dangerous bullshit. It's never, ever dangerous bullshit. I mean... Typical white woman. I was gonna say, yeah. You guys are both white men. Or are we? Yep.

Starting point is 01:08:12 Yes, you are. Well, I'm pretty... Tan. Oh? Ooh, is that something? No. I think it's something. Jesus Christ.

Starting point is 01:08:25 And we're back for still more of this shit. We're going to rejoin Adam and Hawaii just in case his story wasn't sad enough, we're going to layer on some sad. Well, and it's worth pointing out, right, that like 20 minutes ago, this movie was like what he actually needed was the community of a coffee shop. And the minute that coffee shop doesn't show up from the movies like, oh yeah, I guess a coffee shop probably isn't like a complete and robust social network. No backsees, no backsees from what we said earlier.

Starting point is 01:08:54 Yes. So Adam was gonna house it for somebody in Hawaii, gets to Hawaii and that falls through. So like fuck that guy, Jesus Christ. That can't be a thing that falls through. So he winds up in Hawaii and then he gets, he was attacked and he was beaten and his mom got terminal cancer

Starting point is 01:09:12 all in the matter of like 90 seconds of the documentary. Yeah. And I wanna be clear, because Adam says something very important here. He says that the reason he is not going home is because his family want him to get medical care so they, his words, don't accept him. Right.

Starting point is 01:09:30 And he literally says, I can't be there for her. I wish I could, but I can't because they don't accept me. Right. And to be clear, what he means is I won't go there because they'll ask me to take medicine instead of using a homeopathy. Right. Because he's probably having active psychotic episodes in their home. Yes.

Starting point is 01:09:48 And they're worried about him. Right. And at this point in the movie, keep in mind that he is still maintaining that his grandfather, father, and mother molested him. Oh, yeah. I don't think he really harped on that that much. Yeah. Because he was like influenced by, I guess, who told him that? Did he like have

Starting point is 01:10:06 some sort of dream that that happened? Yeah, it was a recovered memory. So I'm sure that showed up at one of these stupid fucking meditation retreats or something like that. Yeah, yeah, because that's like completely illegitimate that like no mental health professional in like right now would do that. Yeah, well, and look, a saddest is, like, yeah, imagine this if we were watching a documentary about his mom, who again, they're not like saying, he's not saying they won't let me come home until I'm on medicine, right? He's saying they will harp on me while I'm there to try to take medicine instead of just using, you know, fucking music therapy or whatever bullshit thing I've convinced myself is all

Starting point is 01:10:42 I need. So his mom is like dying and he won't show up to say goodbye. Yeah. And spoiler alert, the end of the movie is proof of what Noah just said, but we'll get to it. We'll get to it. Yeah. So but first we have to meet Kristen McKinnon, the founder of Family's Healing Together.

Starting point is 01:11:00 I can't with this lady. Oh, God. She goes psychiatrist or aren't trained on how to have hope. They're trained on how to diagnose you, but not on how to have hope. I'm like, so first of all, Kara is that true. And secondly, how would one train someone to have hope? Right. She literally says at one point, she goes,

Starting point is 01:11:20 families need to be educated on their loved ones' strengths. We spend so much time educating them on their mental illnesses, but not on their strengths. And I'm like, educated? Families are the experts on their loved ones' strengths. Right, what is she talking about? I don't need you. Who are you? You can't tell me the strengths of the people that I'm clue.

Starting point is 01:11:39 I know that better than you. I'm the expert on that. But imagine if they did. Imagine if you went into the doctor's office and you were like, yeah, I mean, Timmy's been having these terrible screaming visions of demons and here's voices and the doctor was like, did you know what a gifted drummer your son is? Yeah, really good. He's really good. He can count a lot of toothpicks real quick. What? Why? Yeah. Right. No, And look, again, like there is an important point

Starting point is 01:12:06 here that families generally are not good at dealing with mental illness. It's really hard. And I think as a society, we do a piss poor job of preparing and helping families who are in that situation. Sure. Yes. But she's making the opposite argument. She's saying we are good at training families about the mental illness, but we're not good at teaching them about their strength. And also there's just this constant conflation of psychiatry with psychology that makes me bad. I see this it was in the last anti-fucking psychiatry documentary that you guys made me watch. I do strengths-based therapy. Of course I do, but that is not the psychiatrist job.

Starting point is 01:12:45 So you're right. That example that you use sounded ludicrous, talking about going into the doctor and seeing if the medication dosage is where it needs to be. But yes, sitting in therapy, I probably would be pointing out how much joy and meaning you get from playing the drums and how we need to make space in our lives for the things that bring us meaning. Right. I don't just sit there and go, you're sick, you're sick for the things that bring us meaning. Right. I don't just sit there and go, you're sick, you're sick.

Starting point is 01:13:07 Let's talk about a sick you are. No, I do strengths based therapy. Cara, you sound fake to me, can I tell you? Yeah, I don't know. I watched an entire documentary by a very good photographer who said opposite, yes. Yeah, this sounds like you're making it up as you go it long and I want to be the first one brave We're able to say that to you. So

Starting point is 01:13:27 so then we get we act kaya shows back up to share more of her tragic backstory that gaborki he comes back on to explain that everything is because of childhood trauma right which again reinforce the narrative this movie has established that Adam was molested by his entire family. A narrative they will take back four seconds before they end up the movie. Right. Yeah. We also get to meet my favorite expert here and like, look, again, never give anybody clicks, but this guy, Stanislaus Grough, he wrote LSD psychotherapy, a book that is literally, have you tried doing acid about it?

Starting point is 01:14:03 Look, there's a lot of dangerous charlatans in this movie, but I like a wacky one, right? I like a wacky one. So this guy, he's the guy who argues that NDE's, when you see the tunnel of light, that's actually a memory of the birth kidnap. No. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:14:20 No. Do some expensive time with Stanislaus Lovecraft. You will not regret it, everybody. He's a got-offal movie's MVP for sure. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, for some more sadness. She tells us about like she had, she had a couple of kids and then her husband cheated on her and left her and now she's a single mom. And I'm like, I already felt really bad for this lady. You didn't have to tell me that. So we are sold, Ikea. We feel bad for you. We feel worse that this movie is using you as a prop. Yeah. Yep. And so, and then we check back in with Adam. He's back in Seattle now back living in his car

Starting point is 01:15:05 Samoa, he's making the most out of it, I guess. Yeah, he's in a bad place. Yes, he's selling weed and the movie does like a young business entrepreneur moment, right? Yeah, I was just like, oh the makers of this movie were really hoping he would end up in the prison system So they could blame that for his mental illness as well. It's the weirdest scene, like they check in with him and he's living in his car and he literally says like, so for a while I was sober and I was vegan, but now I'm like eating meat and drinking booze and doing drugs all the time. And it's like why, what is the point of the scene?

Starting point is 01:15:40 Yeah. Like, are we, is this your argument that he's doing well without intervention? Right. Well, because he's regularly having command hallucinations. Yeah. No, he says like, he's like the voices tell me to hurt myself and to hurt other people. And I'm like, you really need to take medicine. Do you take some? I know. It's like they just keep reinforcing why we need mental health treatment. It makes I don't understand this documentary. Right, like I get it man, fucking puking an anal leakage sucks, but still though. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:16:11 I have those things in spite of my medication. Yeah. You have no idea how hard it is for me to have anal leakage. I work over my anal leakage. I'm always sitting in a wet bathing suit. That's what it's like. All right. All right. Just so you know. So then the narrator cuts in to share some of our shameful statistics about mental disorders

Starting point is 01:16:33 as it applies to prisoners and homeless people. And again, yes, these are really bad statistics made worse by the shit you're doing in this movie,. Right. They'd like make all these really good points and then they go, no meds. And it's like, why? Why is that the, oh god? Because I think we can all agree that as part of the prison mentally ill incarceration system, the biggest problem is that those people got way too much care.

Starting point is 01:16:58 I mean, I mean, I think that's not a big deal. I'm just too much medical care. Obviously. The weird thing about this documentary is that it would only take like a few minutes to recut it into a good documentary. Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:17:11 I mean, there's a good, there's plenty of good information there for a 45 minute movie about what's wrong with our healthcare system. Yeah. Yeah, the problem is there's no, and then this is how we fix it. Because we just go go so let's stop treating people and you're like, what? Yeah, well, that's but that's there. This is how we fix it right is to just dismantle this entire system that we have and replace it with shamanism

Starting point is 01:17:38 So and then we meet I'm probably gonna it can't possibly his name can't possibly be pronounced gotcha can it Peter I got Peter gotcha. Peter gotcha. That's how it looks. That's what it looks like to me. But he was kicked out of the evidence-based medical charity that he started for refusing to adhere to evidence-based practices and embarrassing them, I guess. Oh, you had to see it.

Starting point is 01:17:59 Yeah. And then we watched this part where like Adam's trying to get help. He's homeless and he's going to these various charities trying to get housed. And the narrator's like, you know, and nobody will house him because they're so prejudiced he gets to his mental illness, which again, very real problem.

Starting point is 01:18:14 But then they show him in the interview. And he's like, he's like, oh, psychotic rage constantly. Just the boy voices, oh, it's gonna be a harm my neighbors and everyone that I see. People who ask me questions, that's my everyone that I see people who ask me questions. That's my biggest trigger. If you would ask me who I am most likely to harm, it's ladies and black jumpsuits who ask

Starting point is 01:18:32 me questions that compute that is the real thing. They're making a movie with money right now that could be helping me, but it's the right yeah, they're going to I can have an apartment right now for one day of shooting costs. Yeah So and then the statistic comes up and and again, this is an important statistic to point out So kudos to the movie for pointing this out It's just like you know three to five percent of violent acts can be attributed to mental disorders which seems Crazy high. I'd love to know where that yeah I think that's too high. Yeah, it's significantly too

Starting point is 01:19:01 Yeah, yeah, but then he adds that that people with mental illness are far more likely to be victims of violent crime than to be the perpetrators of violent crime, which it was just correct and important to point out, right? And at least they knew they didn't know the numbers on that. They were just like, oh, and by the way, they get way hurt more often than they hurt people. That's more. It's a bigger number. And I feel like they had to, like, it's like the lawyers told them that they had to do

Starting point is 01:19:23 that because they literally just shot this whole scene of Adam going like can I have an apartment and they're like well Are there any reasons that you would be at risk and he's like well? I am gonna set it on fire Yeah, like that is what I do. I set apartments on fire. Is that in the lease agreement? Yeah Yeah, and then they're like well to be clear most people don't set their apartments up It's like what is happening? Right. So he starts reading us because he writes these like self-hate notes to himself when he's

Starting point is 01:19:51 having bad episodes and he starts reading those to us. And then I guess the filmmaker decides he should burn them dramatically. Yeah. Right. So he does that, but they don't like they don't go to a fire pit or a barbecue. So he just has this like post it notes in his hands that are on fire and you see this moment where he's like, oh, where am I going to put these? I got to set them.

Starting point is 01:20:10 They're grass somewhere. I don't want to set the grass on fire. I'm going to gender reveal party this whole fucking state. I have. But yes, then we go to we check in with Northern Mongolia and we learn about the extraordinarily lucky people who live in such a immense poverty that they can't get within cell range of a doctor, right? Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 01:20:30 And honestly, when they showed the lady riding the reindeer, I was kind of jealous, though. I'll admit that, that was pretty cool. Yeah. But we meet a healer lady in Mongolia who has a mental illness, and she seems to be doing great, right? Yes.

Starting point is 01:20:44 His example of how great it's going is she's like, and hey, at one point, she was doing a little magic spell and she fell down, I think she got up, so, you know, yes, it's like a 70 year old woman, a thousand miles from the nearest hospital, they're like, but when she fell down, it was like undissoft things. Jesus.

Starting point is 01:21:04 But they explain that she's like a very attentive healer and that's probably way better than access to medicine. Obviously. Right. They talk about it. Like, she understands that the relationship matters. I'm like, oh, and healthcare providers don't. Sure.

Starting point is 01:21:19 I'm so tired of these straw men arguments. Like, I get it. I get it. You're mad that the US healthcare system is capitalist, but they never actually save that, right? Like, I'm mad at that too. Let's make this film about that. But no, instead they make it anti-psychiatry.

Starting point is 01:21:35 It's literally like when people conflate, like being upset with patenting seeds, like things that, or like Monsanto's history of working with these With agent orange they'll like conflate that with the science of GMOs and be like GMOs are evil And I'm like not the same fucking thing not the same thing. Yes, you cannot complete those two things Right big fucking difference. So then we check back in with Akaya She's she's working at this community outreach center seems to be doing much better

Starting point is 01:22:05 She empathizes with people for a living, which is great, right? Yeah. Also, just to be clear, peer work is incredibly important. And it's inclusion in this movie, especially as it being inferred, like it is a magical exclusive process is like, should be illegal. Right? That would be like if they now introduced Prozac and they were like, and of course there's a secret and an ancient medicine that only we know about.

Starting point is 01:22:32 Called Prozac. But will Hall cut's in at this point and he's like, you know, what we're seeing now is the democratization of mental health. And I'm like, that's not a good thing, man. Like, not the way you're presenting it, not when the breeze to get to vote. Right. Exactly. Like, literally, he says that we need alternatives to medication and diagnosis. It's like, yeah, no. He's like, that's really the expertise.

Starting point is 01:22:57 No, we need alternatives to the scientific method. Yep. Right. What he's literally saying, right, when you swap out mental health for what he means, what he's saying is what we need is the democratization of expertise. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:23:13 Right. No, and I'm glad you pointed that out because of like that alternative to medicine and alternative to diagnosis, they try to like sort of sneak that into the movie. Because again, they don't ever like come right out and say, and medicine is bad, but they throw a lot of that shit in there. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 01:23:28 Yeah. So, but we, we learned that Adam did reconcile with his mom before she died of cancer. So there's at least one moment that's not terribly, terribly sad. Yeah, he's like, she ended up being supportive. And it's like, dude, she's always been supportive of you. Exactly. Yeah. This is also where Adam lets us know that that manic episode he had at the very beginning

Starting point is 01:23:47 of the movie where he was writing about like the geometry of diamonds and their relationship to God. Now many things about it. That was actually great. Yes. Yes. Well, there's also this moment where he's like, you know, and it was really great. I was with my mom and she really like for the first time and listen to me when I told

Starting point is 01:24:03 her about my spiritual stuff. And I'm like, dude, did you go see your dying mom and make it all about you? Adam, did you really, man, come on? 100%. He did. Yeah. And then his carickets toad, and he's living in a campground,

Starting point is 01:24:15 and I'm like, guys, he's going to be a three-legged puppy by the end of this movie. I'm just, I'm just preparing yourself for that emotionally, right? I, every four seconds while I was watching this movie, I was googling, Adam Crazy Wise, dead? Question mark. I'm just kidding.

Starting point is 01:24:29 Cause I was like, I can't, I don't wanna be pop-scared by it, I wanna know. Yeah, right, right. But then we meet this other woman, Laura Delano, she's an ex-patient in activist who basically says, you know, I was diagnosed with bipolar and I took some medicine and then I thought better of it. And I'm fine

Starting point is 01:24:49 Which of course sends the message to everybody watching this movie that yeah, you don't need those meds once again Once again, we've reinforced that so dangerous. Then we traveled to Siberia. Yep, rackin' up those airline miles. Oh, fuck yeah Yeah, he wrote a whole lot of travel But he met a shaman in the place where the word shaman comes from dammit and again, you, identical beliefs to Native Americans in Ecuadorian fucking Amazon tribes and shit, right? And hey, can I make a bold claim? This old lady, she's in an L shape. I don't think she's an amazing healer. I don't know if you're in an L shape. Your powers are on the fritz. Let me throw that out there. Brains, it is controversial. And then so and I thought this this really bothered me too, right? Cause this is the part in the movie where Akaya meets a shaman who practices some traditional South African shamanism or whatever, who is going to teach her to be a

Starting point is 01:25:36 shaman. And I really want to know how much she's making off of this, right? Because if she's profiting exactly at all, then this is fucked up. Cause to be fair, you said she was a South African shaman. She was an American shaman in Baltimore who said that she had divine South African blood. Yes, right. Yeah, no, we do a cutaway interview where she's like, if you're black, you're from Africa, Africa is where shaman's are. I am a shaman. Yeah. Yeah. And no, I'm glad you asked how much she paid because I did a little googling about this priestess lady and she's currently I don't mean I don't know what the full shaman training cost, but she is currently offering zoom trainings for

Starting point is 01:26:12 $499 so yeah, my guess is a caya didn't get it for free, but who know? Maybe she got it. Maybe she just sliding scale or a caya Right, well, and then we see these ceremonies and I'm just like the whole time I'm looking at the ceremony going, yeah, I can't imagine any way that this could make a mental illness worse. Jesus Christ.

Starting point is 01:26:32 Right, yeah, they're like doing exorcisms. Yes, they're doing weird spiritual stuff, right? And I don't mean that in like a weird, it's different. I mean that in the like the WYRD spiritual stuff is in there, they're like invoking demons and stuff, right? Which is really bad to do. But even if even if they were doing cognitive behavioral therapy, she is commuting for four hours to be to pretend to be filled with ghosts with someone with someone who has no training in mental health treatment. No training, no qualifications, nobody's checking up on her, nobody's, and again, even if she was, even if she was doing all of this for free, right, we don't, the relationship between

Starting point is 01:27:12 these two people is dangerous because there's no regulation about it, right? Like, even if she's like, I'm going to volunteer my time and I'm going to make you better, we don't know what she then did with Akaya afterwards. So like one way or the other, this is problematic. Right, because one of these two people is vulnerable. Yes. Very vulnerable. And one of the only things we do find out about this process is that it involves her humbling herself completely before her teacher, which involves sitting only on the floor and eating with her hands or my notes. Sounds like a great and healthy power dynamic. Can't see how that would ever go wrong. Imagine, imagine if there was a clip of one of these

Starting point is 01:27:50 movies of a doctor saying, well, you know, you really have to completely submit yourself to medical school. You have to sit on the floor and eat with your, I mean, that's what people do do in medical school. I have to break about it. Right. Well, so, okay. And then we, we check back in on Adam, he's doing a little better. He says, the words he says is, I had an opportunity to be an autistic counselor. I don't think that's what he meant. I don't think that's what he meant. Counselor for people with autism. Hey, can I just be a neuro typical counselor? No, you only

Starting point is 01:28:21 have to say, okay. And then he says he's a music therapist. You can't just call yourself a therapist. Not a legally protected term, Kara. You can call me a therapist right now. Yeah. Yes. Oh. Just cured your AIDS.

Starting point is 01:28:36 Welcome. But and this is where he's like, oh, and by the way, my dad never molested me. I realized that I was wrong about that. My grandpa probably still did, but I realized that I was wrong about my dad. And then we're like, oh, fucking surprise ending. Great. And he's like, yeah, no, me and my dad are a lot closer. And I'm like, yeah, you no longer accusing him of rape is probably great for the relationship. I can

Starting point is 01:28:58 see what I really benefit. I love to that there's no explanation for like, there's no narrative for why we keep checking in on Adam and sometimes he's really not in a good way. Sometimes he's in a better way. And like my explanation would be that he has so effective disorder. No, right. And sometimes when we check in on him, he's in a depressive episode. Other times he's in a manic episode. other times he's you thimac so right now Adam is you thimac but that doesn't mean that like he's healed right no and from what they don't even say that he does anything and in the movie we've watched him be happy three times three times he's been like don't worry everybody I figured it out oh God the coyotes attacked the car. Right. And many times the movie has been like, no, trust us. This is much better than consistent medical care. Yeah. Jesus. So, yeah.

Starting point is 01:29:50 So, but Akaya finished her bullshit training. So we watched her do some like wander around Baltimore doing river magic or something, right? Right. And as Karaset, like we are glad that she has found meaning, right? But there is no safety net, right? What I wrote in my notes was, well, as long as everyone behaves completely responsibly

Starting point is 01:30:10 with her utter and complete trust, this will always go well. Yes. Great idea. Great idea, because I'm sure that all of these co-shaman's, these peer shamans are gonna know exactly what to do the next time that she has a severe

Starting point is 01:30:25 psychotic episode and she attempts suicide again. I'm sure they're really well-trained in what to do with that. No, yeah, they'll nail it. I'm sure they'll do four easy payments. Yeah, exactly. So, and then we go back over to Will Hall. He's going to tell us the importance of meaning, which we've already talked about how stupid this straw man is, but complaining that psychiatric medicine doesn't give your life

Starting point is 01:30:45 meaning is like complaining that the waitress didn't bring you an education, right? Like these are two different fucking things. And like you said, like both are recommended in therapy, right? It's not like one is in isolation of the other. No, like I literally am an existential psychotherapist. I practice something called logo therapy. Victor Frankl developed this type of therapy called logo therapy logo From the Greek word that means meaning I do meaning center therapy With my fucking clients This is my core of my Prashes

Starting point is 01:31:19 It's so infuriating listening to this guy be like me. They don't really offer no way Trust us, cares, cares, fall a shit. This guy, this guy who admits to of getting his start and his profession by throwing himself off the golden gate bridge, he knows what he's talking about. Care just like went to school or some shit.

Starting point is 01:31:36 I'm right. Well, this is the God more, Marika. He comes back in and he fucks everything up for him too, right? Cause he's like, yeah, you know, sometimes religion does help with mental and sometimes it does the exact opposite of help too though. He goes too far.

Starting point is 01:31:51 He's like doing a fucking Monty Python, Betty's like, yes, so sometimes religion helps. Sometimes it really, I mean, really, really doesn't hate pay. Don't cut away. Look at me. Sometimes really, really doesn't help. Yeah, but yeah, no, that's nice for her. Yeah, but no, then he, and then somebody else comes into explaining the fucking shamanism can cure your mental illness.

Starting point is 01:32:17 The rosy lady comes in and she says, there's something beautiful in trauma. And I'm like, other people's trauma is what you're talking about. Yeah, but yours. Seriously, gross. Gross. Unless she means her own in which case I will say, I'm brave as I am generous. I am willing to hit her with my car. If this lady would like to reach out, I'll happily hit you with

Starting point is 01:32:37 my car. I can say, I think it'll be a beautiful experience. Well, no, that's where the wound is where the light gets in. So yeah, no, I feel like. And then there's this really fucking weird TMI moment where Adam basically comes up and he's like, you know, everything about the process of filming this documentary has been deeply traumatizing for me. Oh yeah, that was weird. It really was.

Starting point is 01:33:01 Really dangerous. You had cameras invading my privacy. You validated a bunch of my really bad beliefs. You embarrassed my parents in what we now know was the final years of my mother's life. It has been the worst thing you could do because I can't actually kill me. It's pretty terrible. You did a pretty bad thing with a camera. It's pretty impressive. It's just a camera thing with a camera. It's pretty impressive.

Starting point is 01:33:25 It's just a camera and you did so much harm. And then they left it all in the movie. And my favorite part of this like long scene is that they start talking about how there are, who is saying this? There are millions of varieties of therapy. But in the healthcare system, we only use the ones with proven efficacy.

Starting point is 01:33:42 Like they show this weird word cloud in the background. You guys remember this? And I don't know if they made. No, it was the shaman lady. It was the lady that had shamanistic practitioner on her chironia. Yeah, and I don't know if they made this word cloud or if it was like lifted from her website,

Starting point is 01:34:00 but it's like, it's this animated word cloud where psychotherapy, medicine are listed next to like acupuncture and dance. Natural, dance. Yes, dance, we're talking about it. But it works as one of the options. And at the bottom it says this is not intended to replace medical or professional advice.

Starting point is 01:34:19 Good for their lawyer, man. Yeah, right. For that, Kyron. He thought, I feel like there was lying down on top of a surface and refusing to move like I think so. And so and right at the very end in case that anyone was tempted to say, but what's the harm if these people are finding meaning in plubba, will hall comes back up and he says, what we need is for the government to put funding towards our bullshit that might otherwise

Starting point is 01:34:44 go to evidence-based therapies. Right. Marsh just appears behind him with a shining silver blade. So then we check back in with Akaya one last time. She's in a much better place. She apologizes for not being a better mom when she was an unmedicated schizophrenic homeless person. I'm sorry, I'm unmedicated homeless person with schizophrenia. Thank you. I learn.

Starting point is 01:35:13 I love it. I love it. But I guess her kids dad and his wife brought her into their home and let her co-parent with them, which seems great. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, it's amazing. Community is really excellent.

Starting point is 01:35:24 We all agree on that. Yeah, those psychologists Yeah. It's amazing. Community is really excellent. We all agree. Yeah. Those psychologists would never tell you that. But yeah, but yeah, I remember my first therapist to tell me, make sure you don't have a place to live. And I really I still to this day. She used it all the time. Well, and then we get, we get one last wrap up with Adam who he's got an apartment now. He's seeing a counselor. They sort of sneak that in. Oh, you mean getting mental health care? Yes. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:35:51 He's ignoring this movie's stupid fucking advice. Yeah, I literally, okay, this is the end of the movie. And I wrote, Adam's story makes no sense in this documentary. He is a walking poster child for traditional mental health treatment. But he consistently fares worse when he strays from structure and evidence-based interventions. And then he consistently does better when he uses them.

Starting point is 01:36:16 Yes. They still keep this narrative throughout the diet. It makes no sense. Right. They're like, but now he stares pensively at waterfalls. So he's my everything. everything worked out great for him. Yeah, maybe he says his maybe his mental illness

Starting point is 01:36:30 had some higher purpose. And I wrote in my notes, I got to check out some purpose in my depression guys. Maybe I am a worthless piece of shit. And we consider that. We considered that because that's the message the spirits have been giving me since I was nine. Yeah, no, right. That dude, I since I was nine. Yeah. No, right.

Starting point is 01:36:45 The dude, I think it was Will. He says again, he's like, what if mental illness or maybe it was the narrator? He says like, what if mental illness was treated like an opportunity instead of a disease? And I'd be like, well, then it would be demonstrably worse for people with mental illness. I guess I would probably be terrible, terrible thing. And he's and but then he ends it with this stupid fucking precious right? Because he goes like, maybe, you know, if we just listen to the mentally ill, we'll find that there's a relationship between being crazy and being wise, right? That's his fucking name drop of the movie. And I'm like, look, man, nobody's arguing that mentally ill. People can't be wise. That's just your dumb fucking prejudice bubbling to the surface.

Starting point is 01:37:23 Also, nobody who actually works in in the mental health field uses the word crazy. Right. Yes. Yeah. Can we just make that pretty clear? Actually, Cara, I hate to blow up your spotlight this, but I actually see in your prescription pad here, it says, two big old pills for Kuku for coconuts. I don't know.

Starting point is 01:37:41 When you were there. When you were there. Still, to this day, you don't understand that I'm not a medical doctor. He doesn't even know you're not a dead person dentist yet. It gives me meaning in my life that you're a dead person dentist with the ability to bite through a man's routine. You need to validate his experience like a bar of white chocolate. I expect an apology.

Starting point is 01:38:07 But then just in case you hadn't suffered enough, Adam is going to sing to us for like two and a half minutes at the end of this. They're going to do their anti-psychiatry medicine rap. Okay. Okay. Thank you. That's as close as I've ever been to hell.

Starting point is 01:38:26 Right. So, Karen, now that you know your profession is bullshit and you're actually just robbing people of their magic powers at the behest of big pharma, what career do you think you're going to pursue instead? I'm already a dead person, dentist. All right. Now I guess that's a dead person. Look at her.

Starting point is 01:38:41 You need to maintain a narrative. This is a very inconsistent. And now she's talking to the pie. right now. I guess. I don't know. Look at her. You need to maintain a narrative. This is a very inconsistent. And now she's fine. She doesn't have to. I don't have to. Okay. We'll introduce you to the Woldash or Missile Trust me. You're going to love it here. All right. So what is happening? And a quick reminder, of course, that you can check out doctor, almost doctor, centauria's other work on talk nerdy or by going to caracantabria.com, which you will find linked in the show notes.

Starting point is 01:39:07 Cara, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Thank you. In person at QED. Yeah. That's excited. And I will be Dr. Santa Maria by. Oh, fuck it. Oh, yes.

Starting point is 01:39:17 Yeah. Yeah. And well, that's going to do it for our review of crazy wise. That's not going to do it for the episode just yet because we still need to step on the same damn rake next week. So Eli, tell us what's on deck. Well, all this talk of mental illness made me miss the brilliant documentarian skills of the folks over at finger of God. So we'll be watching finger of God too. Furious love. Oh, for fuck's sake, there's a two. There's a three. So with that, uh,

Starting point is 01:39:44 it says in the notes, look forward to, we're gonna bring episode 418 to a merciful close. Once again, a huge thanks to all the Patreon and others that helped me, the show go. If you like to catch something on their ranks, you can make a pre-representation of Patreon.com. So there's God off one, they're by earnably access to an entry version of very up.

Starting point is 01:39:56 So you can also help us a ton by leaving a five star review and by sharing the show on all your various social media platforms. And if you enjoyed this, show me, check out our sibling shows, this gets the gate, the authentication need, the D&D minus and the schedule card. About what wherever podcast live. If you have questions, comments, or out our sibling shows, the schedule, the authentication, the DNA minus and the Skype for Card, available wherever pod guests live.

Starting point is 01:40:06 If you have questions, comments, or suggestions, check in in my God off on movies.gmail.com. Tim Robertson takes care of our social media. Our theme song was written in performed by Ryan Slap, April for John Sonnars. All the other music was written in performed by our audio engineer, Morgan Clark,

Starting point is 01:40:15 and was used with permission. Thanks again for giving us a check in your life this week. For Heathen, right, Neal, I'm positive. I'm gonna lose this promise to work hard to earn another check next week. Until then, we'll leave you with the breakfast club clothes. Adam self-produced acoustic rap album, Crazy Wise, can now be purchased as soul food coffee bar for the low-low price of three rinky wiggles and a dime bag.

Starting point is 01:40:36 It's true. legit. Northern Mongolia continues to absolutely crush it when it comes to mental health care. Modern Mongolia continues to absolutely crush it when it comes to mental health care. Everyone associated with this movie is still alive, which is a goddamn miracle. You're right. You're right. Seriously. Huh.

Starting point is 01:41:16 So I am hot, grand mala high priestess of the Shoto Oto Healing Tribe in this one. Yes, you're cool. That's respectful. Don't worry, your real name's Ashley, you're a well-known. Okay, cool. All right. We clarified. Yeah. We've already gotten your emails about not doing blackface. Carol, okay, we have. I'll be alone on stage. It's

Starting point is 01:41:34 fine. Good for you. Sorry for trying to push the edge. Sorry for trying to make you governor. The preceding podcast was a production of Puzzle and a thunderstorm LLC copyright 2023 all rights reserved. The proceeding podcast was a production of Puzzle and a thunderstorm LLC copyright 2023 all rights reserved.

God Awful Movies - 418: Crazy Wise

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