Goes Without Saying - patriarchal living: the feminine urge to just be safe

Episode Date: December 20, 2021

POV: you’re walking home alone in the dark with your keys between your knuckles and one headphone out whilst listening to this podcast. sephy & wing’s feminine fury is back like it never left in this raw episode of Goes Without Saying. join the conversation every monday.speak your mind on the @sephyandwing instagram!you’re invited to our discord group chat: https://discord.gg/DwxFc6CVkz Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Goes Without Saying, you're listening to another episode of Goes Without Saying with Sefi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Sefi. seffie and wing i'm wing and i'm seffie and if you are looking to be absolutely infuriated then i'm sure this is the episode for you we are talking about all of the ways that we have amended our lives and our behaviors and our existence on this planet to keep ourselves safe from dangerous people that are protected more than we are by a society that loves to diminish women's pain. Yeah.

I actually think there are a lot of inspiring, maybe not inspiring, that's probably a bit too much of a compliment, but there are some really motivating and I think quite beautiful sentiments buried deep within this episode if you make it through to the end hope you enjoy thank you so much for listening okay this episode is another one coming out of all of my grassroots work that I'm doing in the dms these days

I'm really down on the ground soaking up what the people are saying and this episode we wouldn't have done this i don't think this is a topic that i think we probably would have just kind of narrowly avoided yeah not because you don't want to talk about it well i guess kind of because you don't want to talk about it it's because it's painful to talk about it exactly yeah but um i'm now going to give a full-on shout out and a full name shout out to Emily Webb. First name, Christian name and surname. I presume, yeah. Emily Webb at the University of Birmingham, who sent us, first of all, beautiful DM and then a very stunning email.

Very stunning, really took the time to write out. And basically, as I'm sure you can tell from the title, I don't know what I'm going to come up with for the title, sure you can tell from the title i don't know what i'm gonna come up with for the title but this is gonna be about emily's email actually was about spiking and about how at the moment in university and i guess just everywhere at the moment definitely like nationally there's an issue with so annoying to talk about because it's so sad there's an issue with young women predominantly being unsafe going on nights out walking home well going on nights out um you're not saving your student union because obviously spiking has been around for a long time um and we've technology has progressed into a living hell

the masterminds behind spiking by injection has now that's now blown up so emily thought it would be nice if we just carry on the conversation because it's obviously a really important conversation and i thought it would be nice for us to carry on the conversation as well because as much as these episodes but people love these episodes when like it feels like we're all kind of venting and we're all getting a bit heated we're all angry together we're all angry together yeah and i actually i want to start off the episode by actually giving some good news brilliant okay good i could really use some after reading the messages i could really do with something nice they were bad weren't they oh yeah um the good news is and this is why as well like i felt a real like um flutter in my veins

from emily's message specifically because she was talking about how at university she's been working to essentially campaigning about she you know created a petition and the university has implemented some of the changes that she asked for and she said one of them which i really liked and i think this was her favorite as well was the concept of a chill out room so it's like kind of if we were out in the student union like if you and i were out at falmer bar seffy which we would never go to falmer bar anyway and if we did if you were out at the student union and you're out and you're drinking blah blah there's a chill out room now that you not not our uni but emily's university

because of the work that she did you can go into this room charge your phone sit down get some water get your affairs in order get your affairs in order collect your mind get away from the creepy guy get some peace of mind and i feel like that is a very good yeah so fucking clever like very tangible genius idea that stops it being this um it being this concept we've heard thrown around recently, the boogeyman of the patriarchy. It's like, no, this is a very tangible thing that this is a way that as individuals, we can change things. And I personally like that because it reminded me of our university days

in which I actually made the university of sussex the first university in the uk to implement ecosia as the default search engine amazing work i just feel like universities are a great place thank you so much universities are the best place to create change yeah like you're not a dummy like you know what you're doing and if you show them that you have enough numbers behind you you can like actually make real things happen real changes i know i'm sounding a bit like again like a preacher but i feel like it's very i don't know it's hard we're so like um what's the word i'm looking for i don't know i don't know where you're going like the opposite of empowered disempowered you're so disempowered in so many ways and at university there are a few ways there are

lots of ways that if like you can put up a fight and also people expect you to at uni the second you're out i mean the difference of trying to get a chill out room put on in your student union and the difference between saying my boss is sexually harassing me at work no one's gonna believe a fucking word you say the second you leave education that bubble no one gives a fuck i'm already getting angry i'm already can feel the shaking in my bones it's tough isn't it it's actually tough like the messages we got i really read through like oh like this will be really like we'll all feel i feel really together with everyone i was shaking within literally i think i had 30 seconds. Wearing shoes I can run in when walking anywhere alone. Keys between the fingers, keychain, personal alarm.

I can't. Don't go home alone. Stay at a friend's house so you can share a taxi together to be safe. Wearing clothes that don't really show my boobs off even though they're stunning and I love them. Amen. They are stunning. Not to walk home alone in the dark. Always have my phone on me.

Don't have two headphones in, etc. Walk on streets where cars go on the opposite direction I'm going. I don't know how to explain it. I know my mum worries when I make my own way home and I hate to know I'll feel the same if I have a daughter. Never put drinks down. I legit hold five drinks. I don't care. Walking alone but always talking to someone.

I've legit stayed up till stupid hours just to phone my sister while she bikes in a different country. Never have earphones in at night. Never stop to check a map in the middle of the street. There's always the thing of girls saying, text me when you get home. Boys can't relate. I call my dad and put it on speaker. Never go anywhere on my own.

Can this end? Never go anywhere on my own is the recurring theme. Can this message end? On your way home. Keep keys between your fingers when walking. Someone else said, don't put keys in your fingers because it can hurt your knuckles. Keep them free in your fingers.

Can we talk about the keys? I just want to start off with talking about the keys. Yes. How unfair it is that we've had to... Weaponise. Use a domestic item as a weapon. Why don't we get weapons? I'm sorry.

That is not a good enough fucking weapon. It's just outrageous to me that it's like, if you want to feel safe, you can use maybe like a key and put that in between your hands like maybe we use the key it's like no give me a fucking knife give me a fucking gun i'm gonna need some kind of weapon even more so just like why have we raised people to put the emphasis on i need a weapon rather than people need to not harm me people need to not put me in danger well exactly but i just find it absolutely pathetic. It's like, what are women given?

They're given keys. Well, the men have keys too, you fucking twat. Lots of people saying, don't put your hair up. Don't have your hair down. Don't wear this. Don't wear that. That absolutely, yeah, so upsetting. Don't wear your hair in a ponytail

because they can grab it. Yeah, don't have your hair down because it's easier to grab and you look more sexual all honestly i can't bear it do this don't do that don't do this do that it's all these like contradicting things that you're told literally from the minute you can process words as a young girl in my experience i'm taking in all of the ways that i need to learn these rituals and learn these strategies to keep myself safe on the earth that i occupy in the same rituals and learn these strategies to keep myself safe on the earth that i occupy in the same way that everyone else is occupying this one earth i'm sharing it with all of you guys but you guys get to have it safely and i have to be in danger for

why and i have to think about what hairstyle because what you're gonna yank my fucking ponytail back you're gonna yank my ariana grande ponytail back i don't think so you need to think about your hairstyle because you when you get out tonight when you get to the pub or when you get to where you're going you need to impress everyone there you need to be the hottest in the room yeah you need to look the hottest but unrapable person in the room also not rapable so this is how the episode is gonna go i think just setting the tone i'm actually fuming but i basically wanted to i know no i'm getting sweaty i'm actually like annoyed i wanted to say thank thank you to Emily for sending that message and kind of sparking the combo because as much as I think it's easy for us as well we want to give you guys fun

conversations and beyond that Sophie and I want to sit down and have fun conversations on a Wednesday morning like I'm not here really to start hyperventilating but we don't also we're doing this at like nine in the morning so we're talking about spiking it's the sun has barely risen it's not safe for us to go outside yet and i've been up since 3am just for funsies but i think it's really important that these conversations don't get left behind and i also know that our demographic so we call them demographic but you are literally a demographic our listeners are all within the age range of you're all girls you're all young there are a lot of people yeah who will be hearing this and feeling all of the

anger but then also i think it's important that you hear the ways that like we can people can do hard things but like the ways that you hear what you can what you can actually do rather than just we all get upset and then forget about it or like just have to move on do you know what i mean yeah that makes sense so basically oh i don't even know but the courts are cracks i guess all of the trigger warnings go in front of this episode i mean oh goes without saying i mean i'm sure the the title will be something to do with sexual violence to be honest i think it's your own responsibility to manage your own triggers on the internet anyway if you haven't figured that out as a an adult over the age of 18 then i hope you can learn that soon and also this is inherently triggering like i don't think you need

to have experienced anything to have a specific trigger on it to be triggered by the idea that you're you're very kind of likely to get raped walking home in the dark on your own. I don't think that needs to be... Trigger warning if you have a specific hook on this. It's like, no, everyone should have a hook on this. Everyone should have a hook. Yeah, if you're not in the mood to like get a little bit... Heated on this.

Quite good if you're at the gym, maybe. Yeah, but make sure you're safe. Do not look too sexy on that running machine. Don't you dare. No, don't you dare. Don't you dare don't wear two earphones only wear one that really stresses me out i know don't wear two headphones it's like wait we can't even enjoy our content trademark even when you're listening to sephian wing yeah you listen to it through the left ear you've got to have an ear out for the rapist behind you i don't think so

terrible i can't actually cope with this world so we put on the story how do you deal with and i called it gendered dangers i don't really know what to say but i was basically saying how do you deal with what precautions have you been taught or what do you what precautions do you take when you're walking home at night or to prevent getting your drink spikes in a club that sort of thing yeah Yeah. Because I thought, we were thinking like, what kind of question do we ask here? Do you know what I mean? Like, what responses am I looking for?

And I thought the most infuriating responses are going to be all of the ways that we've all been amending our existence on this planet. That's what, that's the bit, isn't it? The ways in which we subtly and also not subtly change our behaviours that are just viewed as like base behavior they go without saying yeah they go without saying you should have to do this yes they go without saying

goes without saying you're not going to walk home on your own in the dark which by the way in the uk currently it's getting dark at literally 3 p.m in the afternoon locked inside so my day is ending if i need to walk my dog or walk home from anywhere past 3 p.m where is my life now because also like i've even noticed the difference like i live in london but i've come home for christmas now and i live in like oxfordshire merry christmas everyone merry christmas um the difference of the darkness in the countryside is insane like the difference of yeah proper weirdos in the

countryside yeah well there there are less people so if you bump into a weirdo in london you're bumping into a weirdo and 10 other people you bump into a weirdo in the countryside it's just you and the weirdo so you're dying basically for sure yeah well you bump into a weirdo in london it's kind of that's just when you step outside your door that's just called life it goes without saying yeah but it's the moments where you realize there's no one around but it's kind of the weirdos in the countryside they're burying bodies and shit yeah they really and they really fucking are around here god i'm giving you a little touching wood for you actually kind of freaking me out um i've only been back for literally a day and the difference of my evening

is like i know once it's dark you can't leave the house without a car yeah and even then i'm checking the boot is anyone in there oh my god that was another one that we got yeah check the back check the back seat check the boot before you leave and that's just something i've been doing since i could drive and it's just seen as a normal thing or i would always be oh it's because i watch too many horror movies i'm like scared of people being in the back seat and shit but it's like no that is like a thing you should probably do but it is is it though i don't fucking know well it's obviously you shouldn't have to do it but i think that's the that's the stuff that really gets me when that's the problem when you realize that your behavior is so dictated by laws

that were basically universal laws that women are less safe than men by the patriarchy. And that you have to not only amend your behaviour of whether you stay in or go out and things like that. Or whether you stay quiet or you just like scurry home or you get an Uber back instead of walking and all of these things. It's things like I have to have a different hairstyle. I have to wear different clothes. I have to look sexy different hairstyle. I have to wear different clothes. I have to look sexy, but not too sexy. I have to spend more money to get home safely because I have to pay for a certain cab

rather than even an Uber or rather than walking home for free. And even then I'm still compromised getting in the back of a cab on my own. Which one is more safe? So what do I do? The streets or in a random car with a random man. Weirdly, it's the random car with a random man weirdly it's the random car with a random man that's a sad state of affairs well how many times have you been in

the back of a cab and you're on the phone to someone or texting someone or someone's got your location on find my friends or any of this just monitoring your trip basically and this is the safe option yeah literally the safe option is to be with an unknown man in the back of his car really god right okay so here we go then let's bring it down set the tone i don't know if i can do an hour of this i know actually calling back to what the listener was saying in the email about the chill out room vibe and that sort of thing it really made me think about something that i find to be incredibly unjust okay and we've never spoken about this i don't think and it's not really like there's not very much to speak about it's kind of one of those

things that just have gone without saying in life have you ever found like and i know you have but have you ever found when you're out and about or like it doesn't matter where you are some sort of out drinking environment and whether or not you're drinking because also a lot of people are saying like i make sure i'm less drunk than my friends so i can monitor myself and them and any dangerous people around us that is 100% me but also in those situations where whether you are drunk or not I've always found and I I don't want this to sound like I'm attacking like these people as like a group of people because I think it's beyond that it's beyond like it's beyond like oh PA teachers are

mean do you know what I mean that's what I'm trying to do but they are though but i've always found that in a pub environment a club environment whether i'm drunk or not bouncers security people who work in i've often found the people working in these establishments to be really really patronizing to young girls especially when they're drunk i find this to be very rude and i think oftentimes i've seen young girls say oh my I've lost my phone I don't know how I'm getting home I've lost my friends I don't know how I'm doing this I don't know where I'm going I feel sick I'm this and that and it's basically just like get out of this establishment then yeah onto the streets alone yes yes leave us find your make your own way home onto the streets yeah make your own way in this life yeah and i don't want to be critiquing those

people anyway because i think it's not about those people i think it's just more so about the narrative around that's all young girls aren't allowed to have fun yeah second of all like we've all got this kind of i hate that socially i feel i i often get really like upset because i feel like we're a place as a society where people love to not give a shit about the people yeah that's and i think it's that yeah it is that isn't it because everyone is so concerned it's to me it's capitalism it's just the individual absolutely yeah and who is around them is the most important thing and you literally don't think outside of you or your bubble i find it and i think nothing has shown that more than the pandemic which makes me sick yeah that's true i don't i just find it really really sad

and infuriating the way that like all young people are treated in places where they're supposed to be having fun it's almost like go and sing your silly songs and like be annoying and drunk with your friends and blah blah but the minute you come to me with an actual issue of safety i'm gonna look you up and down and be really annoyed and make you look like an idiot and maybe even kick you out and gaslight you basically yeah have you found that do you agree entirely i think i've had it from a few different angles in that i've had that 100% on nights out where i've been like that guy is following me around and they haven't listened blah blah blah but also when I used to work in like a bar oh yeah so you're the um you're my villain here yeah I was the bouncer I'm joking no no no I the amount of the lack of protection you

get as a woman working in that environment like i was in that environment all the time i was behind the bar um but also i was a cocktail waitress as well so i was like on the floor walking around and i was the only girl on the floor and everyone else was behind the bar sort of thing and the amount of sexual harassment you get and that is ignored and that is part of the job quote unquote is horrific and the gaslighting you experience like i would have this person come in pretty much every week and he would say things like hey can i see your vagina he once shouted out like do you like anal everyone looked around and looked at me turn around look to me that was quite embarrassing how much would you have to be paid to work a job like that because these are minimum

paid jobs by the way these are minimum wage oh i was getting like seven pound an hour i think seven pound hour at like three in the morning doing that so the whole details of the job the whole job requirements are built to make you feel like shit your wage is made to make you feel like shit your whole existence as cocktail waitress is designed to make you feel like shit and no one gives a fuck no one fucking listens because then also this guy that would come in and he would say all of this like horrific derogatory stuff to me every week and i would just like kind of smile and ignore it or like sometimes i would get a bit shitty because that's just kind of in my nature i guess but pretty much the job requirement was ignore ignore it it wasn't just him and one time he when he shouted do you like anal everyone looks around one of the boys

behind the bar kicked him out because they actually heard it for the first time and then the next week he came back and all he had to do was apologize and they were like so do you accept his apology and you can't say no you have to say yes i accept his apology and he's just allowed back in then the rest of the time which said to watch him have fun with his mates but it's like you have no option to not accept it or you look like you're kicking up a fuss you look like you're doing too much but it's like this guy's made me feel unsafe for six months now every night in the middle of the night that i have to walk home on my own after that or drive home on my own after that i'm sorry like it's the amount of sexual harassment you get not only as the girl on the dance floor

having fun with your mates and also as the girl that's behind the bar and everyone's going oh can i get your number it's terrifying well it's how far do you want to push this do you really want to kick up a fuss here do you wendy's small frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment and not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh canadian dairy it's also refreshingly cheap just 99 cents until july 14th it's a treat for you and your wallet acas powers the world's best podcasts here's a show that we recommend Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay.

I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay? So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer. and we are a part.

Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts. Everywhere. ACAST.com. grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com. You know what that reminds me of?

Emily Ratajkowski's My Body book. She talks about, it's annoying because it's from the Blurred Lines essay, and I feel like that's the one that always gets talked about, and the whole book is obviously worth reading, but for the sake of you reminding me of this part of the story, I'm going to talk about it she talks about how something happened on the set that she wasn't really happy with and that it was pretty clear to everyone in in the room that that wasn't cool yeah and the kind of woman in charge stopped everyone and was like oh okay not cool that wasn't cool and it was kind of like the man was like you know he was being made to understand okay this isn't cool and emily ratajkowski was

just like oh god this is embarrassing like okay don't feel good whatever it feels yeah me and emily can i can really relate to you can really yeah no but the book is insanely relatable yeah they basically said okay well you know no touching from now on okay all good yeah cool and they just carry on it just feels a little bit frustrating that the emphasis always seems to be on minimizing the conflict for the perpetrator as much as possible than it is about any sort of it's the lack of justice yeah or like compassion for whatever's just happened redemption yeah but there's no there's no justice there it's all about kind of making sure that you know i'm like violence i need violence in return the smoothest

quietest quickest simplest way that this person can understand that what they did is a little bit bad that's the preferred route and to be honest everything else isn't an option and then we'll just carry on as normal exactly yeah because it's not actually about making you did an unacceptable thing you will now leave the set and emily will continue performing her performance performing her performance and you will be gone it's not that is it it's emily you're gonna still have to stand next to him but he said sorry like he gets it now he's sorry it was just a silly mistake basically boys will be boys get over yourself that's just how the world works if you want to be famous get your tits out and shake them around emily it's absolutely fucking gutting because what it's it's just the lack of justice

and then also it is i want to see that man actually learn yeah you don't he goes on to the next set it does anything that set was a bit fucking harsh that emily's a fucking tight ass yeah a bit embarrassing yeah yeah prude and it's more embarrassing for emily than it is for male model two whoever was touching her for sure yeah well and it's also kind of um the way that we have all internalized the like stigma and shame and embarrassment and humiliation around like calling someone out on something they may have done wrong especially with when a power dynamic is at play means that we all keep each other in danger yeah it's like whether or not emily was gonna stand up for herself as like a young woman new to the

industry in that moment or not everyone else who was also embarrassed yeah no matter what quote unquote side they were on they all kept her and everyone else in danger yeah because and it's the woman as well that has to call it out she's still in she's still one of the only women in the room it's not coming from the high up men it's coming up from the high up woman that's still trying to protect her own position as well because she's can't be the one that always stands up for the women or it just looks like more of a woman's issue and all of this stuff it's like it's just sad that it's like you're expected to keep quiet on so many things in order to advance your own position in this disgusting world well also thinking about the spiking situation that's going on people getting spiked in clubs

people getting spiked through injection in clubs which is so disgusting so so insane it really begs the question who is friends with these people who was who are planning preparing texting sorting out their shit that they know they're going to be going to clubs and injecting people. You're telling me this is a lone, this is one soul. One psychopath. Yeah, assailant. One psychopath who has no friends and he goes out on his own and does that.

No. No, these are the people you know. You know these people. You've sat next to these people. Surely, right? You would think. You've been mates with these people. You've seen something.

You've heard whispers of like, oh, they're a bit dodgy dodgy or like oh he's a bit of a weirdo but whatever we all keep one another in danger well this is how fucking harvey weinstein shit happens because you're like oh well that's just harvey he's just a fucking freak no you all knew he was fucking raping everyone you all knew it and you allowed him around same thing from the most powerful of men to the guy you saw in your seminar around the who lives around the corner whatever yeah there's still some sort of power imbalance there no matter how like um hugely there's a huge yeah yeah just as a recommendation because i feel like the podcast is kind of slowly turning into a recommendation thing but if this is a topic you actually want to like spiking in particular is a topic that it's like right I

want to I know what you're gonna say experience more like more women's stories on this and it's not too much of a trigger I do highly highly highly recommend I May Destroy You highly that's I May Destroy You I think you can find it on like BBC I think it's a BBC thing it was on BBC iPlayer get your TV license guys just kidding don't bother they never come around don't bother they send you letters but they never come around you'll be fine don't take that that's not legal advice from us that is not legal advice and for legal reasons we both pay our TV license for legal reasons you will not our tv license for legal reasons you will not find me on any register of a tv license anywhere don't even sorry don't go looking i

actually did have to pay mine i was gutted because they actually did keep coming around that is crazy and i have been watching i may destroy you so i thought fuck this i've got a fucking pay have you been re-watching it no no no but like i've been watching oh but i've been watching all kinds of shit but you should watch i may destroy you you absolutely should amazing writing amazing performance just amazing exploration of consent as a whole uh-huh so if you're kind of loving this combo this amazing combo of horrific stuff if you're liking this you're gonna love that jesus yeah it's fucking amazing it you know what really made me laugh about that show i really remember i had sometimes i have my subtitles on just for funsies same because i really want to get into the script yeah well unfortunately

it didn't really work for that because it worked fine but there was like i don't know the bbc obviously had a problem with translating some of the dialect. Like if you put the subtitles on, you'll see, like there are just some funny like slang, like even phrases or just funny things that they say that the BBC translates into like a ridiculous, like grammatical disaster. Yeah, it was just funny.

Do you know what I mean? Like some poor little white guy trying to understand what the fuck is going on. It so it was like secondhand embarrassment yeah but yeah i agree most stunning show i kind of just want to talk about that now there's just one moment that i always think about but i'm actually gonna let everyone well there's just one moment that i love but if you haven't watched it then just like skip skip skip kind of 30 seconds i don't fucking know there's just one moment where like there's one character that has a threesome and she like views it as like a really empowering moment and she's

like okay i've had a threesome like that's really empowering like we're all strangers we just had a threesome and as as the men leave that she had a threesome with she notices that them like fist bump each other or something and it's a sign that they kind of knew each other before they planned for that and it's just that way in which empowerment just slowly like in just like a second turns into a complete lack of consent it wasn't what you thought and it's just one of those things that stays with me so fucking much because it's just such a like oh fuck i'm i'm the victim fuck such a clever moment such a stunning show you have to watch i also had quite a i heard a horrible thing this morning share with share with the group this is my irl it's about 10 in the morning now

i'd love another horrible thing to listen to this is really horrible it's a story not much of a story it's just a passing thing that i had heard that um this guy was saying to the these people or whatever that he had been out i don't know like over the weekend or something and these two girls were there and they had said oh we've been spiked we've been spiked like someone's injected us and he was like and that you know it's not i don't believe them but like they're not even that good looking like you know i'm not they were hardly good looking girls i'm getting annoyed i'm getting annoyed that honestly like i feel like i was told that this morning like with someone had the intent to rile me up for this episode so i just thought i'd

leave that out there i think it goes without saying all of the things that are wrong with that i don't even think we need to unpack it just makes me ill i kind of just want to leave it out there it's a frustrating thing yeah the world is so bad yeah get me out of here i know i know who are these people i know i know i know honestly far away where they can't find us that's where we need to go it really is just the spiking thing in general it's so funny funny haha it's fucking hilarious when you're noticing your behavior changing more like with going out and things like that like I'm not really going out anymore because of the pandemic and everything um but there was a period where I was like okay I'm

gonna go to like a bar and things like that and it was so interesting to notice just like how much more vigilant I was when I was like dancing and things like that i was no this was like a few like a month ago even it was halloween night halloween yeah um all in our cute little outfits so sexy dressed as donkey from shrek hot so sexy i was literally in the club so aware of like that man is too close to me as he fucking got a needle it's that person that it's like definitely been made worse by the pandemic i think made so much worse that i haven't seen another human being in years and suddenly there's a man stood next to me but the amount of men i almost feel like you notice that there's an amount of men around you normally in a club anyway there's just the amount of kind of leering men

but the amount there were maybe on this specific night or the pandemic has made me forget how bad it is it and then also with this added idea of like spiking being a thing like now in a lot of bars they give you like a thing to put over your cup like you don't just really get your cup anymore you get your cup with a weird kind of like pringles lid on top of it it's really weird it's a real pringles lid my little capri sun yeah it's really weird but it's really fucking necessary and that's the sort of thing that makes me think the world is fucking sad but thank god someone's listening yeah but then they stop putting stuff in your drink and they start injecting you i also think it comes more so as well like i i definitely i don't know if you get more oh i don't know even

what i'm saying but i definitely feel like i see things now in my 20s with a bit more fury than I did when I was 18. Because I think... Because you can see that was a child that had to be scared of being raped by like, 50 year old man. Yeah, yeah. And I think you also kind of get to your limit of like, a man says something to you out one night, it's like you get to your limit of how many times you could hear that phrase do you know what i mean like for the first two years it's like that's just what men say and blah blah they all seem to say the same they have the same like repertoire of like 10 lines that they use on women on nights out and then i feel like after a while surely you get to your limit where it's like i can't i see exactly i see you guys now in a

different way i see you guys for what you are in a new way not that i think as a young woman you're ever particularly naive to those things but i just think it gets a bit more gross as you get older you're aware of them but they lose they lose their meaning there's a montage of this in the hit film that my sister is actually in oh yeah last night in soho so funny look at the fashion show my sister's there not that any of you know what she looks like well she looks exactly like jeffrey to be honest you'll spot her in a second she looks exactly like me with ginger hair and a lot taller than me it's so interesting there's a montage in that where the main character is it's a different man talking to her every night and you can just see her get

more and more exhausted with it and the man says to her like oh what's a lovely name what's a lovely name like she and she makes up a different name every single time they ask her and each one says what a lovely name god that's stunning yeah nice so interesting that it's like she's so aware that it's a line now and you can just see her like she goes through all the stages of like first of all being like oh thank you and then it's like oh okay and then it's like fucking hell stop and then she's like almost gets so angry that it just turns into laughter at the end but when she's just making up a new name at the end it's just like so almost absurd how they every single one says oh such a lovely name it's like yeah i'm saying a different fucking name every time because

it's not about you and it's not about how lovely your name is and it's not about how good looking you are when you get spiked no it's not about that it's about a power imbalance it's not about she wasn't hot enough to spike it's about an empower an imbalance how long until there are tears do you think yeah i i really was thinking when i woke up in the middle of the night kind of thinking about the messages like oh god oh god the fucking keys between the fingers it stresses me out the world is so bad i know i was really thinking is this when i cry on the podcast like is this gonna be the one yeah so far so good though uh-huh going through the messages last night was like torture it's just like yeah why did i ask do you know what i mean because also what was so interesting and alarming is that every single message was saying the same thing it was just

listing the things that we've all internalized slash been taught of the behaviors that we should do to stay safe and we know them all also like i hate to fucking bring it up again because not again in this episode but like we've spoken about this before but like the murder of like sarah everard if we've all been taught these um rules of you should be wearing these kind of clothes you should call someone to let know you should have someone tracking your location you should have all of these things that was an example of someone doing or following all of the rules and then still dying so it's like the rules are a joke then the rules don't fucking work all of these things they might keep us marginally more safe but you're still not safe if you do them so what that's not the problem then the problem is the man the quite convenient

set up lots of rules for the people who are in danger and no rules for the dangerous people exactly and that's what makes it so obvious that it's not about oh she's not fuckable enough to rape if you see a policeman and you don't trust him wave down a fucking bus did you see that advice yes i saw that fucking hell that's advice from the police that was the advice from the police the actual government yeah they said just wave down a bus oh thanks so much anyway because basically the real advice is don't go out yeah the real advice is just stay at home be small the real advice is like stop complaining will you yeah that's just the way the world is like what do you expect us to do about it rolls eyes the weird thing is it's like what do i expect

them to do about it because i think i've got to the point and i just think so many people must have got to this point where i don't really see a way out of it i don't because the answer is a mass reshaping of the way we think about gender is the actual answer but that is just it is slowly happening but it is yeah but it's so upsetting to think of the fucking pace of it because it is so fucking slow right yeah well it's kind of um slow and steady wins the race but how many people have to die at this pace i didn't want that to be a rhyme what a lovely rhyme roll dial over there slow and steady wins the race but how many people have to die at this pace a bit of spoken word in this episode the world's most bleak poetry book i mean the crux of what

i'm saying is that that was a bit of esop's fables hair and the tortoise mixed with murder the systemic murder of women um but it's true it's like with every what we all have to be martyrs then no i can't be bothered i actually can't bother and it comes down to the point where it's like we can't even want to do episodes on this don't even want to talk about for half an hour which is why it's sad so not can't be bothered it's that i'm so bothered that it kills me well that's the fucking problem because it's not like oh we're going to talk about um female friendship and the issues within female friendship and it's oh it's this there's this which is interesting and there's this which is interesting and blah blah here's your example oh wow blah blah it's not and we've thrown a few harry potter

references we have somehow managed to get one in this one as well god knows how that was possible but yeah it's something that is so real and that it takes our lives so much more than we even conscious of if you think about the if you count the ways in which you have changed your behavior today watch the ways in which you monitor your behavior to make you more safe around men basically it is actually alarming when you start like noticing it because it's so much of it is just unconscious of like oh no i won't turn down that alleyway i'll go around i'll go on the main road even though it's longer and more unpleasant yeah it's just like okay just changing my behavior slowly and you convince yourself that you're being silly and paranoid and like dramatic and just being ridiculous by running yeah running in the dark yeah i'm sprinting instead of just walking

down the alley you're now sprinting because a man's been following me but it's the difference between that or being dead and you start gaslighting yourself because you're like oh no they probably wouldn't they probably wouldn't the man next to me probably wouldn't spike me it's like well i don't know i don't the problem is you don't know and i don't know why we should feel silly for thinking that what is it like most yeah most isn't it most like there's some sort of statistic that's like women are put in danger most by men that they know already not men that they don't know yeah well there's i think it's that i mean that is it but the way i'd heard it phrased was it's like you're more likely to be sexually assaulted by somebody you already know than by a stranger it's so patriarchal it's such

a tactic to make us to make women believe that the person they're most likely to be attacked by is some psychopath that's hiding in the bushes that's going to jump out and go and kill you and it's they're a madman they're a crazy person they're an anomaly no it's not that it's the everyday fucking person because it's not this um strange person on the outskirts of society that's hiding in a bush and gonna fucking kill you because yeah that does happen as well but also what is more like much much much more likely to be is your dad's friend the way that we are all taught to view women yeah all of us i think to steer us into something a bit kind of less deathly yeah i would love to know if there's ever been anything that you feel like you saw you didn't like and you kicked up a fuss in whatever form and made it stop or made change made the difference

that sort of thing do you know what i mean it's really tricky because there have been so many things that happen they're just an endless thing that happen and i don't know how many times i've like turned around and been like excuse me blah blah blah blah for sure i think more often than not i prioritize literally safety and get out of there i'm trying to think let me have a thing definitely definitely always prioritize safely safety and i also think let's not beat ourselves up for minimizing ourselves doing what we have to do all of that it's not your fault that you've had to smile and laugh do these things that you are not happy about to keep yourself safe or keep yourself more comfortable i guess i think the amount that you have to laugh at their shit joke they make a joke that was horrific and there was give us a

smile love and you smile i mean it feels like you're betraying every woman that has ever lived on this fucking planet but sometimes you have to do it because the way they're fucking telling you to smile and all of the other women want you to live all of the other women don't want you to die on behalf of doing what you thought the right thing yeah because that's not right i mean there are so many moments where for example you're on the tube or something and you see someone getting a little bit harassed by someone and yeah you i like you just go in and talk to the girl sort of thing i think that sort of thing happens i think that's like a small way in which girls can be on each other's sides and just be like that's so true hey oh my god like i didn't know you would be here blah blah blah and

just start talking sort of thing you know when someone needs help but i'm struggling to think of a situation where i was like you like a big moment where i turned around and i showed the fucking patriarchy who was boss sort of thing yeah i would love some moment my big um your finale yeah yeah my season finale where i just honestly walk out in a blaze of glory but i'm quite happy to hear that literally in your 20s you haven't had your season finale yet well the season finale of my youth but i would love but like my finale finale god you guys are in for a treat yeah no absolutely not yeah do you have a moment where you've like done that well i just thought it'd be nice to ask you well i think it'd be nice to ask you

um well more so my thing is just i want i want people to listen and like yeah feel the anger and like feel pissed off and whatever and know that even though we all go about our lives and there are so many things that go without saying haha and that you can have days where you're doing all of these things and making these amendments to keep yourself safe and you and your friends don't talk about it all the things that don't go acknowledged it is still something that we are connected in and that's miserable but it also does help you feel seen yeah you're not alone in this yeah and that's why it But it also does help you feel seen. Yeah, you're not alone in this. Yeah. And that's why it's amazing that there is, for example, I May Destroy You, things like that, where it's like, oh, yeah, no, I fucking see myself in this.

Like, I see my friends in this. I see how I feel in this. Like, yeah. And even just talking to your friends about it as well. It's like, oh, yeah, we all fucking put our keys in between our fucking knuckles. Somehow that's all passed through to all of us, filtered down, that we all fucking put our keys in between our fucking knuckles somehow that's all passed through to all of us filtered down that we all fucking do that when we're walking home that is disgusting it's absolutely fucking sickening but there's something in being like

oh we all feel that fear like i'm not alone in that fear when i'm walking from the dark bar that i walk in to my car i wasn't alone in that fear yeah i'm not an idiot it's why it is important to carry on the conversation because when we don't spend time taking an extra minute to acknowledge it you do end up thinking oh i'm just um an idiot you gaslight yourself a dummy yeah do you know what was an example of kind of gaslighting just like low-key gaslighting that i experienced recently in terms of like sexual violence and especially like spiking i was in a bar the other day well as in like a pub the other day i was i don't think you could call it a bar it was really shit um and i was just i just want to me and my friend just wanted like a glass

of water and we were like to the bar man we were like can we get just like two glasses of water please and he was like oh there's some on the side and at the side there were just like loads of glasses of water with like a big jug but they'd already been pre-poured no not happening sorry and i was like no no no like in a pandemic as well one in a pandemic to the spiking situation like i'm not just going to drink a cup like if you said oh your gin and tonic's been waiting on the side for you um for 45 minutes uh-huh next to all those men over there do you see them just right there yeah just go take one of those gin and tonics that's on the side i wouldn't be drinking it are you feeling lucky yeah do i fancy my chances

tonight russian roulette at the pub literally which one should i pick he was like oh no no just over there i was like no can i just have a glass of like it's a free just make me one please i'm begging you i just want some water it's too much to ask and did they give it to you well he just looked at me like i was fucking mental and in the end i was i in the end i drank the water off the side gas lit well there we go you heard it here first yeah consider yourself gaslit yeah successfully gaslit we're just made to feel like such a moron and you just you know what i can't be bothered sorry to kick up a fuss and that's why it's i can't be bothered to do the take the extra measures to keep myself safe tonight fuck it i just had like what i did was i just was like

i'll just have like a few sips so it's like i'll just have i'll just be a bit spiked like i'll just be a little bit spiked yeah and me and my friend said to each other we were like okay well if either of us start acting weird we'll know it at least we'll know it's from the water off the side water that we drank but it's just horrendous to be having to have those kind of conversations about a glass of water that's the bit that i don't like though is the kind of thing of as if as if to say you are being extra mental yeah being like i actually don't want to drink the water that has been sitting there for literally two and a half hours after months and months of like the discourse have you been watching the news mate exactly have you been watching the news are you like no don't worry about being in your drink now they do it all by injection now anyway don't worry

about it oh you're gonna get analog you're gonna get analog spike retro retro spike yeah it's a vintage spiking going on vintage spiking so outrageous okay look that's all i can give yeah same i just want to leave it on the note of make your petitions because they work you heard it here first they do work do they work i think i have just like um a complete lack of belief in the world well you didn't found a or co-found i should say and i actually will say if my friends are listening who also founded it with me i was absolutely the weak link in that no i totally was but i'm happy to be i'm happy to be the weak link great to be a weak leak in a weak link in an amazing operation so multiple people have said

to me oh my god i didn't i'm doing that at my uni and i didn't know that was you and blah blah blah which is the craziest fucking thing so and emily at birmingham university i think is a um pioneer well thank you so much for recommending that well recommending this what is it what's the word requesting this it inspired the topic i think yeah inspiring us thank you so much because it is so needed it's so hard to bring yourself to talk about something that is so fucking gutting but it is so important to talk about well i also feel like i know a lot of people listen on monday morning i don't want to start off everyone's week in a shitty kind of way hope everyone has a good day at work today yeah exactly it feels a bit sad but

i just hope that we can come away feeling seen feeling connected feeling like inspired a bit motivated to push through the shit know when we have power know when it's safe to make a move i know when you need to be sitting around doing this or whatever it is yeah well we were out making moves i think it's yeah just keep yourself safe keep other people safe whatever that means just weigh up the situation as and when it happens thank you for all the love thank you for all the love on the book club by the way okay well this is a fun note yeah the book club goodness me everyone everyone really wants the book club they went mad for the book club stephi was like how many people do you think like if we did a book how many people do you think would do it and i was

like maybe like 10 and i was like no no you're kidding yourself you're kidding yourself i think probably around 30 it's like okay i think maybe more than 10 and 30 well when i said i literally said stephi we can do it gonna do a thing a patreon book club i think would more than 10 and 30 well when i said i literally said to sephie we can do it gonna do a thing a patreon book club i think would be great we could have like 10 but it would be quite small like it'd be quite niche and that's why we're like zoom or like we still obviously want to do a zoom thing but it's also like how does that work uh-huh how does it work yeah you have to do it so any ideas on how to make that work with with a lot of people potentially a lot more people than we thought also just any ideas on like how to get by in life if you could just give us any general

general tips would be great it would be amazing if you don't hear from us assume the worst