Goes Without Saying - sexuality & desire: a hot girl summer

Episode Date: June 21, 2021

it's getting hot in here! in this juicy episode of Goes Without Saying, sephy & wing are delving deep into the world of sexual fantasies. from the nuances of sexuality to the complexities of desire, we're daydreaming away our hot girl summer. why are we all falling in love with celebrities and fictional characters? is it possible to fully understand our sexual desires? are our sexual preferences just a freudian nightmare? join us as we unpack sex, fantasy, and why the hound from game of thrones is so fit.join the conversation every monday. speak your mind on the @sephyandwing instagram! you’re invited to our discord group chat: https://discord.gg/kZm8XYyM5t Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Like the story of a cabaret singer and a sex worker who invented safe sex and saved millions and millions and millions of lives. Go check out Resurrection wherever you listen to podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com. It goes without saying that you are listening to Goes Without Saying with Sefi and Wing, and today's episode is honestly the only chat I ever want to have, which is kind of sexuality, desires, fantasies, oh my god my god sexual fantasies and don't we

go crazy in this f i love it it's basically the only conversation i'll be having for the foreseeable future so i hope you enjoy listening to all our kind of darkest desires god god what are we doing okay something i thought was really funny is i was on twitter as as i do be on twitter fuck and i was looking at what everyone was saying about bo burnham which i know that's now two weeks in a row that we're talking about bo burnham but i don't really care and someone's like oh my god i don't know why but i just find bo burnham so attractive blah blah blah oh i know why because he's fit as fuck. Well, exactly. And then someone replied,

because he's like a six foot fucking skinny white man. That's why you find him attractive. And I just thought, yeah, it's so funny that we pick these people like, he's like, oh my God, he's like not typically fancy, but like, I must be different. I must be so different for liking him because no one else likes him, blah, blah, blah.

It's like, we are silly girls we are silly people he's objectively attractive he's literally perfect also it's like he's funny he's clever literally just prototype kind of straight white male he's literally yeah he's a very very attractive guy but it's because he he acts as like kind of the nerd at school, like a bit of the dork, like the theater boy dork almost thing. That is like, oh, why is he fit? Why is he like, why is he fit? Oh, but it's like, no, but it's because it's like a good looking guy

pretending to be that. Also, you've kind of been sold that because when you see that character in movies, everyone was saying, oh my God, movies, like TV, like the media has impacted the way that you, what you find attractive and what builds your like sexual desire is from what you've seen on tv even the most quote-unquote unattractive people in tv

or like the chubby girl quote-unquote are still better looking than anyone you know in your real life exactly they're still fucking hollywood They're actors. Of course, like. They're Hollywood ugly. Exactly. Which is kind of a sorry 10 out of 10. Literally. So funny. Well, when you think, well, just for example, like in talking about like weight, for example, do you remember in Grease? Everyone knows the film Grease. Mm hmm.

Fucking Jan. The brush, brush, brush girl. It's like the whole thing is like, oh, I always knew there was more to you than fat. It's like that tiny little woman is the fat character. if she's the fattest woman in hollywood i think it's funny on two levels in the sense of we're sold ideas of like this is what it means to be unattractive but it's someone who's very obviously objectively attractive or conventionally attractive but then on the other side it's funny that us then if we beauty is in the eye of the beholder if us as the beholder then take it as some sort of like i'm so quirky i just find crazy guys attractive like yeah do you know what i mean it become we take it on as we think we're unique we think we're not like other girls for thinking that fucking snape is attractive it's like are

you are you unique sarah are you i don't think you are well i was gonna use the example of ron of like oh my god i like the like weird best friend ron it's like yeah because it's fucking rupert grin like you would i love that we go to fucking harry potter it's mortifying you hate that we go to harry potter straight away well it's just funny that we didn't even do harry potter references we literally gave examples of hot guys quote on quote and they were both harry potter characters well and i also did greece yeah yeah greece i think and it's also the idea that like in any movie there's like this big makeover scene and she just takes off her glasses and you never knew all along she was like the most beautiful woman it's like well as viewers like

how dumb are we that we're supposed to well how dumb do they think we are that we're supposed to think that that woman is ugly because she's got frizzy hair and glasses but we can see very clearly it's literally like anne hathaway literally in the most beautiful body ever yeah um just taking off her glasses and i was like what now she's princess mia exactly that kind of i didn't know it was emma watson under that sweatshirt oh my goodness you look so beautiful. Now you're in a pink dress and you look exactly the same as you did in the last take.

Okay, so let me actually talk about this one message that we got because I feel like this is kind of me and it's kind of Freudian, but it's also kind of, I think everyone can relate a bit or a lot of people can relate a bit that they were saying basically that the people that they find attractive look like their dad horrendous and it is kind it's kind of um you pick a partner that looks like you or dogs

start to look like their owners or you seek out um kind of you've got quote-unquote mummy issues so you seek out people who act in relationships like your mum like i think we go on and on on this podcast about how much what we want and our fears and our desires and our whole personalities are in some way kind of formed by what our experience is basically and i feel like if your first introduction to this world um for a lot of people is their parents and also being you know in a relationship or not the way the first interaction with people and the first interaction with love either the absence of love or you know a happy marriage whatever it might be is through your parents then of course we take that in in

some way whether we absolutely reject it and go for something completely different or try and find it and not really you know if it's a subconscious thing or do you see that for you um i don't know if i see it for me wait let me think because so my thing is i think bella hadid is one of the most stunning women alive but she also looks a lot like my mum when my mum was younger oh that's interesting yeah they have a sim there's one picture in particular i'm like that is exactly like my mum or kind of um just certain men it's like they've kind of got darker skin and darker hair and a bit curly joe j Joe Jonas. Oh, that's, it makes me ill. Kind of, yeah.

If Joe Jonas was like not a white man. I mean, even then he's pretty ethnically ambiguous actually. I think is kind of the gag of them. Do you know what I mean? We saw this funny TikTok that was like, I'm not the main character. I'm the rugged boyfriend. I'm the rugged ethnically ambiguous boyfriend who comes in in season two. Yeah. I'm the bad guy the rugged boyfriend i'm the rugged ethically ethnically ambiguous

boyfriend who comes in in season two yeah i'm the bad guy blah blah blah it's like yeah that kind of is like joe jonas or kind of um what's his name jacob jake i was gonna say jacob lautner taylor yeah who is apparently why but anyway i just think it's funny that of course we like seek out in so in so many not just in our relationships but i just think in so many ways we often follow the routines that were set up for us by our parents whether we absolutely reject them or follow them to a t without noticing there's such a big connection there it is interesting i feel like it's one of those things that's hard to see in your own life but i can identify in other people that i know it's like you're literally dating your dad sort of thing it's not even so much they look like their parents the people they

date but it's like similar behaviors it's like 100 if their dad is particularly like lazy then they will usually go for like a lazy guy it's like oh okay like you really are just repeating things but i'm not sure whether it's like okay so those behaviors have been normalized or and like therefore desirable like okay your dad sits in front of the tv all day okay so that is just seen as like a normal thing for a guy to do and that you don't necessarily perceive it as laziness or whether it's that you have subconsciously got this like freudian thing which is like a drive towards finding someone that is like your dad well i think it's you could argue a lot of us do that you learn through your parents how to survive so if you're thinking okay how do i survive in some way i have to mirror what they

did which for some of us is not gonna go fucking well is it these two these two fucking nutters um interesting topic hey but i think that's why people have got fucked up ideas of what a relationship is as well oh for sure your blueprint is two fucking absolute lunatics that got pregnant in their 20s and they're just here like right okay this is how we guess we do this we're in a dysfunctional relationship where we can't communicate we hate our jobs we're like we're stuck in the patriarchy we're stuck in a load of shit um how do we raise a child here and then that's your mirror um or your like blueprint of what your future most likely will look like it's like okay well i must follow the i must follow a certain set of rules then if i then fit into the category of my mum what my mum did to survive was marry this fucking loser so i guess

i've got to find my loser there he is turns out he sits in front of the tv all day brilliant 100 yeah literally just what i know oh my god but then also that's why i think it's really interesting when people are saying most their desires came from like the media like film and tv or even like music and books i think it's like that's why we need these grand people edward cullen a vampire oh my god jacob swan what's his name jacob black i think that's his name yeah yeah is it i think his name is jacob black because isn't the dad's name bobby black bobby but billy billy black this could be all wrong yeah no i think you're right it just sounds awful honestly it just sounds like if i was writing a novel those aren't the character

names i would pick but i guess hey what do i know bella swan and jacob black and edward cullen it's like yeah cullen's the best oh my god well i think she thought she was doing something by having jacob black and then edward cullen is kind of white as snow like yeah yeah she thought she had something with um like seeing what your parents said and then consciously trying to reject it i think i said even maybe a few episodes ago maybe i didn't say i don't know i'm constantly talking constantly talking shit I can't keep up with what I have said to who and who's heard what and blah blah blah so you're just gonna hear it all but I remember my mum like learned things from you know her parents and was like okay I'm gonna I'm not gonna make those mistakes and then ended up making different mistakes with me and I've said

to my therapist multiple times even though I can be aware of what mistakes were made for me maybe I won't make them but I'm gonna make different ones and they could be way worse and yeah do you know what i mean i think it's funny that sometimes we think we're so smart by being super self-aware and and like really observant and really analytical and being like okay i'm gonna choose i'm gonna break the generational cycle this is what scares me i'm gonna be the the fork in the road yeah i'm gonna be the yeah exactly you we've got all these high hopes for who we're gonna be this is what scares me i'm gonna be the the fork in the road yeah i'm gonna be the yeah exactly you we've got all these high hopes for who we're gonna be this is what scares me because i just think right it's i literally think back and go idiot idiot idiot idiot i'm gonna be the one that can change this

like look at all your mistakes like how are you so blind the hops out of the womb somehow the most self-aware girl and i'm just gonna fuck up in different ways and your great great great great granddaughter is pretty fine and we'll be looking back on you thinking she's an idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot especially my child will probably be quite i don't know they'll probably be called everyone else idiots so it's literally like she just goes out saying goes out saying my kid will think they're the smartest person ever born so it's funny when you think jesus you got this all like crazy like look at all these behaviors that you haven't sorted it's like well i've got a lot of shit to sort out that i don't push that onto my children

like i still have a fucked up relationship with um romance and sexuality so many things so it's almost and desire so i almost think it's like right i've got to get a grip on all of this before i fucking end up with some fucking um human being human and make a human with them and then pop out that human and then they go to not to overstate it but yeah and then the kids they're like right okay this is the blueprint it's like no no don't take my life as the blueprint like that's a mess that's a mess mess mess honestly mess mess mess gotta sweep some shit up before you come out oh my god and even just like your own behaviors in terms of like just like insecurities and stuff like when i've seen this is kind of not at all on topic but just on topic of parenting it's on the topic of you and it is your podcast after all true true to true so i'm just gonna say an off point but

it's like when i look at parents that clearly have like issues with food and stuff and then their children that clearly have issues with food i just think it's like god what a shame that that person couldn't get that sorted because then their child wouldn't have been born into that sort of um shit like we shouldn't have it would be inevitable for them then to have an eating disorder and stuff so i almost just think it's like i always think with myself it's like i want to get a hook on my own like body to small fear and stuff before i can before i have a kid because it's like it would be so unfair to have a kid whilst i'm still there going right i'm fat what am i thinking my kid's fat yeah yeah yeah it's mental it's like i'm going jesus you might want

to eat a bit less now well i've seen i've seen people do that yeah for sure how many parents have i seen do that to their kids absolutely i think it part of it is kind of the cheek of it of us to me it is also like privileged talks in the sense that we're like you guys are fucking stupid as fuck like thanks for bringing me here like you dumb fucks like i'm gonna do this so different i'm the innocent little girl that's now got all the answers well exactly it's like well you would say that wouldn't you because you've been fed loads of information that gives has broadened your mind like you even you have a term for um fucking anxiety you have a time for body dysmorphia that didn't exist when

i was your blah blah blah they're well in their rights to say that so yeah everyone's pretty fucked hey pretty fucked so anyway fantasizing who are you fantasizing about these days yeah let's talk about it i this is my favorite topic i'm i'm not actually my last deep fantasy but basically kind of the reason we wanted to talk about this so i don't know it like when i first found tiktok so the beginning of lockdown when i was first like got into the tiktok hole i found all these videos on my like fucking algorithm that well they were just appearing to me of like me planning out my like fantasies before i go to sleep like me scripting out who i'm in love with before i go to sleep and then like daydreaming like dreaming about it all night or kind of having like in-depth scripted fantasies about

like characters from films or like pop stars i guess and things like that like harry styles and i genuinely thought i was a complete freak for doing this like i genuinely throughout my entire life like i remember the first one being with nat wolf from naked brothers band on brownie camp probably scripting out in my mind like i'm gonna have a big fantasy like nat but did you never talk about it with your friends as a child not in the way that's like do you pick who you're gonna fantasize about and then you like i go through real phases you create a world yeah i thought it was just like daydreaming was normal and i did like a weird level me and my friend growing up had a really sweet deal where we would call each other on our home phones. We're children. We're like probably like nine years old and we would be like let's do the story. Love. Love. Oh my god.

It's embarrassing if she ever hears this. It's like actually quite mortifying. Can we do the story? The story. It was called the story and the story basically meant create a story for like we would so basically we would get on the phone my mom would be like erin and blah blah blah's on the phone and i would run down get the phone hi mrs thingy can i talk to erin please yeah run up to my room it would be okay shall we do the story luckily at the time we were loving for example the jonas brothers and it would be that i would be like okay you walk in to a fucking i don't even fucking know like i don't know i think i'm pretty good with coming up with these little now but anyway we come up with them sometimes we kind of do the story all the time but no we don't we don't it's like to another level got it i mean i'm literally

holding my phone up like in my hand like as if i'm doing it now it would be like okay you walk in you're wearing blah blah blah we would basically tell each other it was kind of scripting it's kind of personalized fan fiction we would be on the phone for hours you're writing what pad fiction yeah you're you're writing short stories well they were actually long stories and if it was a good one we would be like oh my god let's do the one from last time blah blah blah and we would literally be like you met you're walking down the thing and he says blah blah blah word and you're just listening to what the person's saying you're not interrupting them they're telling a story it was a really good exercise in creative thinking actually you're writing young adult fiction 100 but it would almost and then you'd be like and then he kisses you and

then you start having sex like blah blah it was quite sexual yeah god they always are they always are well it has to be otherwise what's the fucking point yeah exactly it's like and then he then you have a lovely dinner you eat your mushroom ravioli and then he waved at you and he turned around and that was it yeah literally yeah so who are you fantasizing about at the moment i'm not fantasizing about anyone at the moment i'm over it now i thought it was sebastian stan well it was but i i I don't want to see his fucking face again. Do you ever get like that where you like get like a like you get into somebody and then you take it too far and then you get really sick of them because that's what I've done with

like so many people. You get sick of them. No I just more get like severely depressed. Well have you ever gotten over them? You've got to go through the depression to get over them oh you have to get through the depression to get over them i remember us saying before it's like do i turn up i have to turn up at seth rogan's door thing begging release me release me from this curse of loving you like what have you done to me like please set me free yeah genuinely but this is why i find celebrities much harder than fictional characters because at the moment i'm in a real fantasizing thing about the hound from game of thrones and he's been one of my favorites for ages but he's a good one the hound if you don't know who that is he's kind of the world's biggest man he's kind of google him he's yeah he's quite

brute he's such a brute he's kind of haggard or a ball could you say a ball a ball yeah no he's kind of google him he's yeah he's quite a brute he's such a brute he's kind of hagrid or a boar could you say a boar a boar yeah no he's a big kind of um beast man a boarish man yeah yeah it kind of it wouldn't be surprising if he genuinely was a werewolf a beast a real beast he would be great at playing beauty and the beast he would it's kind of the worst thing someone imagine someone's like you you know that girl, Sefi, she would play a great, Beast.

In Beauty and the Beast. Not the human version, but the Beast. Not Belle. The Beast. The Beast. You look really like the Beast. The funny thing with the Hound is, I remember saying to you like,

it's quite good because, he can't, it's like what you're kind of going to a wedding together, you can't be like, this is my boyfriend, like, what is his name, like Sandor Clegane.

He's got a big sword with him. he's wearing armor he's wearing this is my boyfriend he's just called the hound oh my god he's called sandor it's like you're walking around kind of top shop are you he's got a half burnt face you're walking around tesco with sandor clagain google the hound if you haven't seen game of thrones it's not someone that could be your boyfriend it's too much which is why i think he's safe which is why seth rogan can't work or jamie dornan or sebastian stan i don't even want to fucking go there or prince harry or any of the fucking people in life these people can't be good because they exist you know what i've realized why i like prince harry so much is because to me i think the ultimate because i think i keep bringing up my trauma as i do but i feel like to me in in a situation where i needed as a child i needed

someone to come in and protect me and defend me and take me out of the situation and save me and if it's prince harry it's really fucking good. As now, as a grown woman, the most kind of desirable thing is a man or someone defending you and protecting you and saving you and taking you out of the thing. And that's why that Meghan Markle interview where he's like, he's protecting her. Oh my God.

Do you know the bit in that that caused the fantasy is that when he said that they were in canada and that he came in and said pack your bags our fucking security's got to go we've got to leave now i mean you love that bit and that bit it's like my baby me oh my god printer harry's like taking me away from canada because i'm no longer safe that's a fantasy i'd watch the film of that i mean it's it's crazy because it's also like one of the most horrific moments of their lives like it's like very serious like trauma danger so traumatic and we're like god that's so fucking hot like we're kind of fingering ourselves over like this actual really disgusting horrific event like the most horrific um sort of

institution of the royal family taking away security from a baby boy are you joking and a woman because she's black are you mad oh my god it's too much well that's why real people this is why i have my big rule don't fantasize about people you know but luckily i don't know fucking prince harry and even more than that i really don't fucking know the hound because i don't even know the actor's name and it's he doesn't exist that's why i think i'm safe in the worlds of like game of thrones harry potter or like um i don't know even just like any film i'll watch about oh i love them love them love them but it'll usually be like a fantasy vibe because i feel like we got really in this when i was in portugal but i think we recorded

an episode on body image and we were talking about our fantasies about harry potter at the time but we got harry potter in to the fantasies about harry potter i don't like the harry potter daydreaming stuff because you can i don't like it doesn't i get what you mean it's nice to know like look it's never gonna happen but it's almost that's even more dissatisfying that's almost part of the heartbreak yeah it's almost worse because it's like game of thrones it's like yeah i can have a fantasy about that but i wouldn't want to exist in that world yeah but there's a bit of it that's like harry potter fuck i would want to exist in that world yeah i would want to go to hogwarts like i would but like in game of thrones like well i'm getting raped i don't want to live

there yeah you're dead you're dead me like realistically i meet the hound he just kills me straight away he's kind of he's punching children he's punching little maisie williams and you're like oh yeah that's fit he's killing them he's killing children it's insane he's literally a child murderer a slaughterer but he's quite cute though he's so big he's big and strong man he's kind of a woodcutter a lumberjack vibe yeah but that's the thing he's huge that's why i think it's funny that like we think we're so unique in finding certain things attractive but you still can um strip it back down to the to a stereotype he's a strong man and it's because it's this big strong man yeah there's a big strong man that can protect you

it's fit kind of oh he's sensitive he's like god he's soft on the inside is he acts tough on the outside but he's a little softy on the inside yeah it's easy it's kind of do i like lenny from of mice and men a bad boy exactly it's like it's fucking written and it's been written a thousand times over mate there was one question that i really liked or someone's answer so we asked on the story i don't know i can't i don't have it actually up here what we asked on the story do you know what we asked kind of what makes you fantasize yeah where does your desire come from there we go what makes you fantasize and someone said the desire to be anywhere but here and then in brackets they put and also sexy people acas powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature.

I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay? So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson.

And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer, and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere a cast.com oh but i think that is also partially why a lot of fantasies and a lot of the things people were writing was like from kind of dystopian or like fictional universes. It's not just, oh, it's like a big fantasy about the guy down the road. It's like, yeah, you might have a momentary like fleeting daydream about like the guy

that lives next door. And it's like, oh, like imagine if he knocked on my door and like blah, blah, blah, blah. But you don't actually have these like detail. Well, I think it's more common to have these huge detailed fantasies about people that are from like completely separate worlds. Like for like the marvel universe you might be like oh i fucking love spider-man everyone's loving loki these days i saw that in the discord loki yeah and in the and

on the instagram i've never seen any marvel film other than spider-man but i did think god tom holland you know what i think about tom ho Holland. But that's why you've only seen that Spider-Man film because I said to you if you see this film you'll be fantasizing the whole way home about Tom Holland so let's go. And you were right. And you did because you know why I knew you would love it is because that bit when they're there's a bit where they're on the plane and he's like planned the whole thing he's like I'm gonna sit next to Zendaya I'm gonna talk like we can blah blah blah and then he gets to the fucking plane and zendaya has to sit with this like hot guy quote-unquote hot guy they're sharing earphones it's like no no no that has not gone to plan at all like you can feel how defeated he is

i think it's like that he downloaded a playlist or something that he wanted to listen they're just the idea of sharing headphones with the guys oh my god oh i can feel it on a plane journey and you're sat right next to each other oh i can feel it now is that feeling of like desperately wanting to be sat with someone oh god it's too much i also love spider-man far from home with tom holland because it's that school trip feeling which i can really feel as well of like oh my god we're on the bus together that was why i said to you you're gonna love it yeah we're on the bus like oh my god well I've got to get my outfits it's just like fuck I can just you're far from home and it's Tom Holland and then I saw him in his corset and I thought Jesus yeah yeah Tom Holland in a corset dancing

to Umbrella are you joking yeah but that's why I think it's easier it's not only the desire to be oh my god I'm with the hound or oh my god i'm with john snow or like what i don't can't think of any other fucking fictional worlds like you're in even like call me by your name i'm timothy chalamet and call by your name it's like yeah you're in this kind of beautiful italian wonderful well i've got bad news for you your lover is a cannibal that is the kick in the teeth of that whole film plot twist he's literally eating skin disgusting plot twist call me by your name too there's definitely an appeal of wanting to enter a separate world rather than actually oh well i love timothy chalamet it's like

you don't actually love army hammer's fucking character in corn by your name you love the vibe of italy because realistically you're sat at your boring desk being like oh i wish i was in fucking italy and i wouldn't complain if army hammer was there although we would oh for sure well yeah run a mile guys running for the fucking hills yeah imagine you get to italy army hammer's there oh god he's getting the barbecue ready as we speak oh my god oh god I'm touching wood. I don't know for what. Yeah, honestly, terrifying man. That was horrible.

If you don't know what we're talking about, Armie Hammer's a cannibal, yeah? Oh, if you don't know what we're talking about, just don't even go into it. Anyway, anyway. Don't Google. Yeah, it's horrible. This reminds me, someone,

I actually saved one of the messages that we got. Someone said that they daydream kind of in excess to kind of essentially distract them from the misery of their own lives because it's easier to daydream and lose a whole day than it is to actually do anything scary and change your situation and i just thought that is the most beautiful tragedy i've ever heard honestly yeah it's like can't we all relate but can't we all just think oh it's honestly i'm in this photo and i don't like it i think that's when you know it's like can't we all relate but can't we all just think oh it's honestly i'm in this photo and i don't like it i think that's when you know it's stepping because have you ever had one and i

know you have because we've spoken about it before where i mean for example your seth rogan thing that you had when we're in brighton i remember we were on the beach beautiful day in brighton and you're like oh fucking seth rogan and that's when it starts like intruding into your life because you're on the beach with all your friends like your boyfriend's like texting you're like seth rogan why don't you love me seth i remember when i first found this out about nat wolf this fantasizing thing that oh my god when i thought i will never be upset um never be with nat wolf i remember i was sad the whole brownie camp i was like fucking nat wolf nat wolf is naked brothers band he doesn't know who i am is when it starts intruding but the thing is it's not even about nat wolf and it's not even about seth rogan and i think in part it's not even

about the romance or the sex of it at all i think it is actually something in your life and it's not necessarily sexual that you want you're looking for distraction you're looking to to escape i think you're looking for drama we're quite different aren't we yeah sephi's daydreams and fantasies are really quite dramatic they're violent whereas mine yeah mine yours are very angsty whereas mine are very um minor for escape like i want to escape drama to go into i'll have like a nice amount of drama just to keep the plot going but it needs to be beautiful i remember once i used to fantasize about having a miscarriage with noel fielding like that was mental oh well now i'm touching

wood and i'm sorry if anyone's going through that situation that was when i was like 13 i didn't really know what they were i i think i used to i wanted arguments in my daydreams i still think i do you want angst yeah i want the um the power and balance like tension you want tension to break that's why i think i i wouldn't go for cedric for example i'd go for malfoy it's like the evil drama of it all yeah but yours for example you it's just like a very loving time well i'm also a big daydreamer just in life don't know if it's pisces moon or just all the trauma but i'm a big like i spend a lot of time in my head and i can't have i can't have my reality be angsty and then also my head be angsty as well it's like i'll die well i think that's the problem isn't it because it's like i

wouldn't even say my life is particularly unangsty like i feel like there's a lot of angst in my actual day-to-day but then i just think i almost the blueprint of what is romantic in films is this angsty and like almost quite violent and possessive and like drama-filled relationship so that's almost what i see as the blueprint of romance so i'm no wonder when i've been grown i've grown up thinking my god fucking edward's gonna kill me like you're gonna kiss but he's also gonna bite me and kill me that's fit then i've got this kind of thing where i'm like oh like I'm having a miscarriage it's like what the fuck I was gonna say that I almost think even when you say that I'm like whoa like I'm so thrown I feel like oh my god what what the hell but it's also it's largely because well in

two worlds largely because miscarriage is seen as a women's issue so it's so like stigmatized and taboo and you can't talk about it. yeah. but then also women's desire is in part in the same way such a taboo and you can't talk about it. that i remember.. and i don't know what we say in this episode. it's called rape fantasies something something. and bdsm. god fucking no. we're obviously super equipped to talk about that we know just what we're talking about there we know everything about that um not it's kind of yeah i don't know what we say in that episode but i just think it's real it's not shocking like yeah it's it's absolutely what insane is kind of the wrong word to use but it's absolutely like complex i guess it's a complex thing for like a teenage like can we unpack that like a

teenage girl do you know i mean there's a teenage girl who's got a hook on a really really heartbreaking really really traumatic event traumatic real also potentially probable thing with no fielding who's also there's a lot to say about him what we were also saying in that rape culture episode is that obviously desire is so fucking nuanced and complex that what you're fantasizing about doesn't necessarily mean that you want it so for example like rape fantasies i remember studying this actually in my in like a film essay at uni that it's like rape rape fantasies are actually very common in like highly religious communities the idea of like i'm fantasizing about rape because it almost gives you an escape for feeling

um for for sex which rape is not sex goes without fucking saying goes without saying but it's almost like okay well if i remove sexual desire from this i didn't ask for this therefore i'm allowed to have a fantasy and it's fucked up but i think it's the difference and knowing the nuance between a desire is not a fantasy desire is not something that you want to happen in real life yeah it's an exploration of self me as a 13 year old girl being like oh my god i'm having a miscarriage yeah yeah basically it was me being like oh my god i want their no fielding to protect me exactly and therefore i want no a big man to protect me and my baby and the loss of love and that like all of this stuff and it's a fucking teenage girl's mind is complex and an adult woman's mind is complex as well absolutely and desire is the most

fucked up shit i've ever seen in my life yeah yeah it is it really really is because people were writing crazy shit like oh god goes that fucking saying yeah for sure i wish i i wish i yeah i just wish i had like a really good point because i don't i'm just like it is yeah it's just insane isn't it okay i have a question for you it's kind of in two parts okay it's kind of um like an essay part a and then follow on to part b um the other day well it was kind of when we were talking about this episode you were saying that you i guess it and also these questions very much follow the idea of a gender binary which is not really i mean not at all what we believe in but for the sake of discussing patriarchy

it's gonna follow that route you were saying that you had spoken to a male friend or a boyfriend but not your boyfriend and he you were saying that you spoke to your friend about what he would fantasize about or what he would um daydream about or what his desire would be and he said i don't know if you are you're happy for this to go in there he basically said oh i dream about i dream i have this dream that i'm you said it is as if he's looking in the mirror of eric said it's kind of i've won the fa cup all of my friends are clapping me i'm in glory eternal glory it was that once he was he was walking home from scott from school he was walking home from work lol i literally think we're talking you have like a 14 year old friend genuinely he was walking home

from school my 14 year old mate he's walking from work um your friends had this little like kid from year eight i genuinely think my viewers is like year eight so i get confused sometimes oh my god he was walking home from work and he was like i was just having the best daydream and i was like what were you daydreaming about out of interest because i was probably in a daydreaming state of mind of like oh i'm daydreaming about jamie lannister well i can't see him saying he's having a daydream and you not asking yeah exactly and then he was like oh it's just like me just like scoring the final goal and like the premier cup it's like jesus it's always you honestly you

couldn't write it it's yeah yeah it's so on the nose but it's it's literally just the most basic boy fucking daydream and it's like oh this is what boys daydream about like because kind of if i was to ask any one of my friends yeah sure it might be something of success or something but i think like nine times out of ten it's like oh it's about fucking ryan from fucking work the office ryan from high school musical ryan from work and he's like i was just daydreaming about like if he asked me out like it would just be a thing like that well i'll tell you the stat yeah this this shocked me yeah it wasn't as wasn't as binary as i thought which i love to see yeah are your daydreams mostly

romantic in nature or other so like work related success anything else basically and 55 said that it was romantic in nature because when we were talking about this initially seph 55% said that it was romantic in nature. Because when we were talking about this, initially, Sefi had said that her friend had said that he had daydreamed about success and blah, blah, blah. Whereas for Sefi, she would imagine that whilst women have those daydreams, women also have romantic daydreams, but men more often would have daydreams about anything else other than romance is kind of the hypothesis that you presented right i kind of view it as the men that i speak to in my life would be more kind of like sex and status daydreams and i feel like women would have like sex status and romance dreams

yeah like daydreams that there's this idea that's been presented to women of like romance like the amount of preoccupation we have with romance in our mind compared to men is um off it's not um balanced almost the idea that well it's because women romance is seen as like a female genre romance is seen as like a female thing of a man will the like trope is that men don't want to commit that like a woman dreams of her wedding day every girl dreams of her wedding day but men is that what they told you at the wedding magazine that you worked at can we bring that conversation back i'm not saying these are my beliefs i'm saying this is as the patriarchal belief get your man to commit to you by learning these 10 blowjobs tricks like it's kind of and in rich and in exchange for that you will be given this princess day of a white dress and

happily ever after and all of this shit and i kind of just think it's interesting that the idea of that feeds into our fantasies of like women are daydreaming about like not even explicitly sex which of course we are status and sex and all of these things but it's like there's this added addition of romance which i think has the monopoly over women's daydreams which that just doesn't seem to be in the men that i speak to showing up in the same way well fascinating because the part b to my question was going to be talking about how everyone views we all see women be sexualized so all of us would be more inclined to have an attraction to women versus it's not under the patriarchy it's not kind of men aren't sexualized in the same way etc etc completely this is what um my article was about so i guess the crux the crux oh yeah go on go on go on go on just that was what my article was

about when i wrote an article for salty magazine and it was kind of that the idea that i hear a lot of the time women be like oh i'm sexually attracted to women but romantically attracted to men and my hypothesis i guess again with that was why am i of the time women be like, oh, I'm sexually attracted to women, but romantically attracted to men. And my hypothesis, I guess, again, with that was, why am I coming up with these hypotheses? Like, Jesus, no one asked that of you. It's kind of Sefi et al. I've got another theory on the go. Yeah.

Is that our idea of romance is fucked because under patriarchy, women are so sexualized that all women can understand a sexual attraction towards women, but they can't feel romance towards them because our idea of romance is rooted in like possession and jealousy and like um ownership basically we've never been taught romance from women with women yeah yeah to the point where do you remember when we watched that series dead to me yeah and you don't have to watch it guys don't worry about it but it's fine you can watch it it's literally fine it's not even good it's fine yeah it's fine

it follows two women um in their friendship velma and yeah it's so i remember saying like it's so unusual it's so like not common to see women or female or yeah women friendships on tv that half the time i'm thinking are they about to start fucking like oh they're getting a bit closer they're gonna start kissing but it's like no they're literally just friends like we never see two women talk normally we never see like female really we never see women's relationships on tv so that when i see them i'm like uh is this kind of hot or not are they gonna have sex yeah well i thought this the other day because i was watching a series with my family like fucking david tennant thing my brother's obsessed with david tennant so i'm like right we're gonna watch david tennant thing the only thing i can

get him to sit down with to watch and it was like yeah there's these two women in it and i was like they're about to have an affair they're definitely about to have an affair exactly and everyone was like what are you talking about no they're not you fucking freak everyone's like shut up pervert it's like oh god yeah you've projected that onto them it's like they're literally staring at each other in this like they're obviously about to fuck and they didn't well yeah no i was like what the hell was that now i look nuts well too right they didn't it's just normal but like we just present women are so sexualized that the minute there's two of them in the room it's like oh god what do i do in here jesus christ steamy take her top off yeah honestly it's bizarre it is bizarre it's almost kind of why everyone thinks we're a couple they don't but like we've had it a few times it's kind of your two women can't coexist in the same space without someone thinking someone's

getting fingered it's like let me tell you straight here and now it's not happening. but that's why it's important to hear women speaking about um anything other topics. what's it called? the bechadel test. yeah. is it that? i was gonna say do you remember when i was telling you guys about this and we i was like i don't know the name of it but and some guy on the train was like. it's called the bechadel test. yeah yeah i don't think it's bechadel i think that's almost bechamel bechamel cheesy angle we're making a lasagna but it's some kind of test it's if film is a film thing but for some this classically was not taught to me in my film modules because classically everyone hates women yeah obviously yeah yeah but it's the idea that in most films there's like only a select amount of films actually pass this test where there are there's a conversation between women that isn't about men if a film is lucky

enough to have a conversation with women it will be about men which is shocking but that's why i think it's important to have like representation of women talking not about men it's like anything but sex and men yeah that's the thing is you can never find well you can but it's like well it's seen as a woman's film occurrence to have yeah a scene where two women are talking about something that isn't other that isn't another character who is a man yeah and that's why any film that isn't that is seen as like crude or sort of a woman's film exactly we wouldn't have ever read harriet potter because it never would have come out and it would have been a silly woman's story and that would have been it and i guess jk rowling would have had a different path and in some ways maybe the world would be a better place but who knows hey i guess we'll never know um it was

really interesting reading everyone's like desires like kind of reading everyone's diary it would be interesting wouldn't it everyone's personal diaries oh my god so someone actually made a good point in the in the instagram or like on the questions about their desire is shaped their desire and their daydreams is shaped through their experiences of learning what they do and don't like with real like irl partners right which i just thought was interesting um so i wanted to ask you in a similar vein how and i guess going off the back of what you were saying earlier about the what you would daydream about when you were a lot younger how have your daydreams changed over time and like what did your fantasies look like when you were younger versus what do they look like now might

be very very similar might be the exact same but i just think it's interesting to i guess contrast a fucking 13 year old's desire with you now that is so funny because i literally remember lying in my bunk bed well we had like loft bed like you know loft bed vibes wanted a slide going down but had bought the ones that i walked up the steps famously screaming when my parents got split up oh we know the ones and i was just screaming screaming screaming but i remember lying in my loft bed fantasizing about zach from sweet life and zach and cody and i was just lying there thinking good choice in my mind we're kissing we're in the what's it called the tipton we're kissing like at some kind of like we're up for dinner kind of in maddie's room um and i remember we're kissing kissing kissing snog snog snog but i was obviously

like 11 and i remember thinking i wish there was something more than kissing like i almost want our bodies to like go into each other or something like i wish we could like merge bodies or something like you invented sex honestly i invented sex in my mind ceo of sex because i didn't know what sex was i was just there watching sweet life of zach and cody i was like why can't there be more to this like why is this not it's satisfying but it's just there needs to be something more it's not enough and now obviously now i know what sex is well i've got some good news for you you're gonna love this but now it's crazy thinking back it's like god there must be some complete it's not so much it's the nature versus

nurture thing it's like i was never told about sex at that age or i was told that i don't know how you were that old and didn't know about sex though unless i think i just or i think i knew what sex was but i didn't know that it was like a pleasurable thing i thought it was you to hear about sex from a biological like reproductive point of view it's like when people love each other they do this thing babies are born whatever i don't think i knew if it's like if i want to kiss zach from zach and cody i'm not thinking about having a baby with him when i'm like a baby myself i'm thinking what can we do that's more than kiss like god it's so fucking fascinating it's so weird isn't it that i knew there was

something before knowing there was something yeah so weird i always think this about like age anyway that it's so funny that like when i'm 40 i'm gonna fancy a 40 year old man sort of things like that that it's funny that well i hope so hopefully when you're 40 you're not still fantasizing about zach and cody but it's just funny isn't it that there was a point in time when zach from zach and cody was attractive to me because for men that's what they do totally in the way that it's not weird for leonardo dicaprio to to date an 18 year old to be what like 50 something 50 maybe yeah and he's fantasizing about teenagers an 18 year old woman yeah children it's crazy but it's just funny that it's like there would be a point now where i'm fantasizing about the's crazy but it's just funny that it's like there would be a point

now where i'm fantasizing about the hound yeah it's just i almost think it's funny that it changes as you grow i think that yes yes that's a man that's a man man like me at 14 was not fantasizing about the hound because that's like a scary big man i'm fantasizing about um chad from high school musical uh-huh and even he feels like old at that point but now i look back i'm like chad a child jesus yeah it's just funny how it really changes like there's going to be a point in your life when you fancy a 70 year old man so basically the people have got older is that the answer literally age we've aged up age i learned what sex was and i grew up what about you well i i think i agree with you that it's so fucking interesting because

also let me find the actual stat only 16 of people on our story think it's possible to ever fully understand desire 16 well that's a bleak world well how how do we understand it how can we understand it is that bleak what do you mean well i think it's bleak in the sense that we're not equipped for the convo we can't articulate how we feel that sort of thing well i think i think it's bleak from a gender point of view because i think that's uh we're 90 something percent female audience and i think it's interesting that i wonder if you were asking that on a men's thing when they've got all essentially sexual resources are targeted at men all your porn you just type

in porn and it's porn for men made by men for men and that we need to have specific porn websites that are for women like balessa and things like that that i'm not really surprised that there's like a huge amount of women that are like can't do the maths of 14 percent 986 60 percent being like we can never understand desire because it's like well our desires are so um seen as secondary to the the mass desire which is um men's desire i completely agree but i also think those men don't really understand the desire no no anyway like i think they there's like um sexual like products for them but i don't think that anyone has the resources in the way that yeah we don't have like good sex education at all and like obviously it caters a certain type of person

but even that person even the kind of straight white male has minimal understanding of his desire because the second he watches call me by your name he's going to be shitting himself he won't want to turn up to work the next day because he's thinking oh my, he's going to be shitting himself. He won't want to turn up to work the next day because he's thinking, oh my God, I'm going to be shunned. I wonder what that's like to watch Call Me By Your Name as like quite a repressed sort of straight man. To watch that, you must be shaking when you realise that you're turned on.

That's what I mean, yeah. When you realise, fuck, this looks desirable. God. I guess we'll never know, hey? I also watched a great film. I would actually love to talk about um we kind of touched on it in the tom holland conversation a bit about not in this i'm not spider-man the other time we were talking about tom holland in the other tom holland when he

dances to umbrella in a corset um about like the bizarre like kind of niche of it's quite a popular niche of like female sexual desire of for sure seeing two gay men have sex because i definitely think like the amount of oh my god this is sexually groundbreaking i had when i watched like even like brokeback mountain or corn by your name or i watched one recently called god's own country and they're all like love stories between men it honestly gets me so much more than like any kind of straight love story and i don't know what that is but i definitely think it's like an interesting aspect of desire of wanting to see like something that you're not represented in like for example men

watching like lesbian porn it's like you yeah are not represented in this so why is it hot too fucking right you're not stay away get your dick away stay away from us but if there are two dicks i'm interested yeah it's absolutely fascinating i think part of it i mean obviously it's not um surprising it's just the subversion of some sort of conventional story in the way that um it's that it's um quote-unquote forbidden yeah or like edward cullen is supposed to be attractive or appealing because he's a predator and he's not um kind of prince charming it's just a different level or a different angle but still kind of fits into because it will still be it's always still and mostly too straight no not straight to like at least white conventionally attractive men that will be

portrayed in like gay men's stories absolutely yeah rather than like like it's representation but how far can that representation go if it doesn't look like 80 of the gay men out there for example and and a large part of our demographic is women it's like we're not necessarily making this to represent our community we're making this to capitalize on the desires of women yeah of um essentially just straight women which wherever we heard that before it's kind of the whole of life it is fascinating like it's an interesting so interesting i know and i wish i like knew everything because i really don't because because also we had I don't know we had the interesting conversation about the Tom Holland thing that it was like there's a part of you that feels like it's crazy like it's almost like it's

not at all like it's the hot it's I mean to me it's the hottest thing I've ever seen in so long I was oh my god I fucking love Tom Holland in his little corset but then I mean we just differ so much on that because you were like I don't find this fit no i don't i don't find it fit i completely get it though it's like i agree with you it's not a niche to find it fit find it fit but like it's but what is that do you know what i mean what is that then i would love to know i completely agree what is that why is it hot because it's like put up like there's a part of you that's like oh it's the blurring of boundaries like it's the gender like fluidity of it but it's also not really that confidence everything it's yeah it's the confidence it's the it's the fact zendaya's in the corner fucking swooning that's pretty hot like jesus um like zendaya's loving it like of course it's

stunning but there's something more to it that's like it's That's like, it's, it's indescribable. It's indescribable when Tom Holland looks at the camera and does a body roll down to, oh my God, and Zendaya screams. Oh, that's my favourite bit. It honestly, yeah. Desire is just indescribable, I think. And there's a million different angles

and there'll be a million different angles that we have not covered. Part of which being that Safi and I, even though we have differing views are coming from a really similar angle so it's really hard it's indescribable good thing we're talking about it on a podcast are we done i think we're done okay good we've answered nothing but get me out of it we've given you some people to fantasize about maybe i could just give you someone like now as in like essentially we do the story now okay like if i said can you because we've done this before we did it once with john

snow where we'll be able to say what's your fantasy of john snow oh yeah i came up with some good things right you did you did come up with some good things especially because i know what you like we would be quite a good couple i do quite know what you like maybe yeah you could come up with a fantasy that i would like well sephie quite likes being some sort of like poor kind of nurse from like peasantry and she's like kind of scrounging around but with a magical power yeah she's kind of an elf nurse i'm kind of like um most beautiful woman you've ever seen a sort of goddess in disguise as a nurse kind of an angel on her yeah a heavenly angel in disguise as a as a nurse yeah that has to tend to the wounds of john snow and you're walking through kind of yeah a war torn nation and all the men are kind of gasping

for air and their life sight is you being so beautiful everybody wants you look at you swooning away doesn't sound bad blushing but like if i give you for example um i don't want it i don't want it you don't want it i don't this is the thing with my daydreaming is i i need to fucking curb it honestly i take it too fucking far and not just like not even in a romantic sense i think just in life like i'm far too in my head i like it's an addiction well same that's why i have to have the rule of don't fantasize about people you know because i will change the narratives you guys know i'm currently like moving trying to move and there's this one place that i would actually

really love to be in and i said to seffy i'm breaking the rule of don't fantasize about people you know except it's just don't fantasize about apartments that actually exist yeah literally but by the time this goes out it'll be either toast or dinner what's the opposite of toast i don't know what like buttered bread yeah can i actually just throw something out there back to bo burnham yeah let's round it off a cyclic a cyclical episode we start with bay we end with mo just round it off with bo burnham i feel like it all does it begins and ends with bo yeah yeah this universe this universe something i found really jarring is everyone being like there's a real discourse of people being like i'm so worried about bo after

inside like really watching inside it made me yes right okay i'm glad you're giving me the same reaction i haven't seen this but isn't that the kind of the point is that he's performing like a worrying. Well, this is also what I was saying. Like, I don't know what's real and what's not in that special. Yeah, well, he definitely is open about like mental. God, I'm really open wide with my legs right now. Like that's a real, that's mental.

There's a real conversation about like, oh, like I feel so bad for him. Like, I hope he's okay. Like I'm actually concerned and blah, blah, blah. So if we take it at face value that it is real and people are concerned that's the bit that i find jarring because i'm like and maybe now everyone's going to be really concerned for me but i'm like i don't i didn't i looked at that and thought like yeah it's not that bad well i didn't think no no i completely agree because it's just him he's crying on camera and he's kind of having like slight meltdowns but there's nothing like he's not doing anything absolutely crazy

it's just crazy to see a man do that on tv i think you're like god there's a man crying on tv yeah i don't i think i i think i maybe i'm in a bit of a bubble because in part i do think i don't really grasp how depressed everyone is in the sense of I think that we all just feel so sad all the time but we don't like some people do but it's not like that but I agree with you and I think it's the same with this podcast in the way that we speak frankly about things that people will think it must be a performance or people will think it must be really worrying yeah but actually the reality of it is it's just what it is to be human. I don't know.

I found it a bit frustrating. Or just bizarre. No, no, I completely agree. Well, no, I agree with that, but I think that's why we're jarring. For example, when I say, oh my God, I had a fantasy that I had a miscarriage when I'm 13. It's like people hear that and go, oh my God, what the fuck?

Or like when we talk about, I don't know, like even rape or like the male gaze in just a way that's, or even like you didn't think Tom Holland was fit in a corset. Yeah um i don't know like even rape or like the male gaze in just a way that's or even like you don't you didn't think tom holland was fit in a corset yeah i don't i think seeing people's reaction to bo burnham being kind of in my eyes that's just kind of like pretty normal yeah like he is he's turning 30 he's in a pandemic i think it is it's just the thing that's abnormal is to film it exactly yeah i think i just forget how much a lot of people are not in these conversations also why are they worried about he produced quite a lot of like quite incredible songs in that thing he just cut it in between there are bits of him

crying oh my god so amazing he's doing pretty well surely he'll literally look at the like absolutely amazing stuff he created well i think the part that i find jarring is i can't part of me refuses to believe that the people who are concerned about bo burnham are not equally as depressed not ever been equally as miserable in their own lives i think it's just yeah i don't know a disconnect there there's some sort of cognitive dissonance there between seeing someone be like human and not seeing yourself in that i don't know i don't know i know some people don't like sadness and what a dark stuff like i know they don't like that i just think i just can't imagine that you know i can't imagine that wanting to see that or like not getting that or like i don't fucking know i don't fucking know well maybe they do get

it and they're like this is i don't know i don't know i just almost wanted to put it on the pod in case any of you lot were concerned or for bow if you weren't concerned for bow yeah i would love to hear the thoughts, I think. I think we just want to have the chat about Beau. But anyway, shall we? Shall we? If you don't... If you don't hear from us, it's even worse, baby.

But like, actually, though.