Good Inside with Dr. Becky - Monica and Adam Mosseri on Managing Separation Anxiety

Episode Date: February 22, 2022

Does your kid struggle to separate from you? Or maybe “struggle” feels like the world’s biggest understatement given the non-stop tears, screams, and clinging-on-for-dear-life that happens anytime you leave? You’re not the only one: Instagram CEO Adam Mosseri and his wife Monica get it. In fact, sometimes leaving their five-year-old son for date night feels more exhausting than relaxing. This week, the couple joins the podcast with Dr. Becky to brainstorm what’s going for their son when they leave and how to help him through the feelings behind his behavior. From keeping goodbyes short to telling stories from our own childhoods, the three talk through strategies to use both inside and outside the moment to reduce separation anxiety, increase safety, and ground ourselves (and our kids) in goodness. Join Good Inside Membership: https://bit.ly/3cqgG2A Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Order Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books. For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcast

You're listening to Good Inside with Dr. Becky. And today I'll be talking about how to manage difficult separations with your kids. So many of you have been asking for an episode on this topic, and here it is. Right after a word from our sponsor. Hey Sabrina. Hey. So I've been thinking about toys recently. I don't want the toy to do that much of the work.

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So even as we struggle, and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain good inside. Today, I'm talking with Instagram, CEO, Adam Messeri, and his wife, Monica Messeri. Parents of three young boys. Adam and Monica open up about their eldest separation struggles and how it surfaces when they leave to go out for dinner or try to separate at soccer practice. We brainstorm together about what is going on when kids scream at your departure or refuse to join a class and help our kids with the struggles they're having underneath these painful moments.

Here's something I want to say before we dive in. It's normal for kids to protest separation. After all, we are their rocks and their source of stability and moving away from us can feel really scary. To help our kids in these moments, we need to ground ourselves in what our role is, versus what our kids' role is. And also we need to build skills outside separation moments that our kids can use during the separation moments. Well, lucky for you, Adam, Monica and I cover all of this in our short

conversation. So let's jump in. Adam and Monica, I'm so so honored, so happy to have you here. Thank you for talking with me. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. We're fans, so we're excited to be here. Thank you for what you do. We were listening to the podcast on a drive recently. We're trying to be better parents.

Keep it together. Keep it together. And be present parents. Well when I record, you know, I often will record something and listen to it a lot later and review it. And I seriously will hear things that I say. And I'll be like, I have no recollection of saying that. I could have used that yesterday with my own kids,

but now that I'm reviewing it, I'm gonna try that today. So we're in the same boat, listening to podcasts, trying to do better. So let's jump in, just tell me a little bit about who you guys are and what's on your mind today. So, let's see. We have three children, three boys. Our oldest is five.

Our middle is three. And our youngest is one and a half. And we're currently adjusting back to what is sort of a new normal. We have our kids back in school, and wasn't the case last year. And we have a younger one and a half year old who's starting to interact with other people and children who hasn't for the last two years. To go with baby. Yes, to go with me. So there doesn't know people outside the pod.

And we're experiencing some challenging transitions back, particularly with our five-year-olds. And so I think some of the things we were excited to get your advice on were specific to him, but then do sort of play out with our others as well. Challenge thing is like almost putting it a little bit like it's been pretty rough a couple of months, especially with the kids in out of school with COVID scares, anytime they get a cough,

you know, out of school, PCR tests, we have, you know, colds run through the boys one at a time. So we had one sick yesterday, a different one sick this morning. And so we've had we've had some highs and some lows, I think it's right to say, I think that's right. And then in addition to that, having, you know, a five year old and a three year old and a one year old getting used to this new schedule, where they're away from us. They're meeting new people.

They're in a school learning new things and they've been used to being by our side even while we've been working, you know, in and out of the house for the last year and a half. So we're struggling. And we need Dr. Becky's help. I have three kids too. Mine are a little bit more spaced out, but it's been really rough. I mean, I think I would say the same thing.

Challenging is like a, I don't know, a nice enough euphemism for how it can feel, right? And the way we're all unwinding, I don't even know if unwindings are right word, but somewhat unwinding for at least the most intense phase thus far, hope ever of the pandemic, it's been significant, right? It's like a lot on us, it's a lot of our kids,

it's so many transitions, it's so many changes, it's so much uncertainty, one set of rules, another set of rules, right? Nothing that we can really stay grounded in. So makes sense, I think you, your house, my house, like we are definitely not the only two homes that are experiencing a lot of struggles. So let's jump into the specifics.

Can I hear about whatever specifically is on your mind? Like here's a situation or here's the kind of theme. Yeah, I think the most recent one is really, maybe the theme is sort of attachment. And I would say we haven't left the kids really over the last year and a half, but we've started to get in a groove and do date night and have a couple of work obligations and friend obligations

that take us out from dinner. And our five-year-old can't handle it. Where are you going? Why are you going to stay for dinner? You'd always leave us. You don't spend enough time with us. You get to really sad and you start to cry. We've tried to give them a heads up.

We've given them our schedule for the week. We do Thursday day and night so he knows it's coming, but it helps a little bit. And after a day of school and after just feeling emotional, he breaks down and he cries and he usually loses it. And we're trying to get out of the house and not be too late or cancel, which we've sometimes done a forefeeling really exhausted and just get out of the house and just sort of extract ourselves.

But he said, be like physically held by the nanny so that we can close the door. Like it's that level of intensity. Yep, so yeah, that's what I want to know. So when you said he can't handle it, right? He's telling you he doesn't like it. He's telling you he's upset. Okay, but it's more intense than that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He will try and follow us and follow us out the door. So we have to have to have to put him. He's not a small kid. It's the put him in the name. He's arms and like telling your love and tell him we're back in two hours and it goes the door. And he will come around, but he, but what wants to be leave, he can be upset for a period of time, and then he can get really mean and kind of lets that anger out on the main, which is not great either. But clearly he's struggling, clearly he's dealing with a lot. And so we're just trying to figure out how we can help him. With this transition.

Yeah. And just so I know, is it the same type of separation struggles when he goes to school or is that different? The less when he goes to school, mostly when we're removing ourselves from from dinner or having to be out for a couple hours on the screen. We were too wetting. Like that kind of thing.

Yeah, exactly. And before we get into some kind of brainstorming together, what comes up for you guys in those moments when you kind of the doors close, you're in the car, you're walking to where you're going, like, what, what's that like? At first, it's guilt because, oh, did I not spend enough time with him today? What, what are my hours of quality time with him this week? I start to quickly run through my head or around things, you know, it was reflect back on the week. He threw some psychological bombs. Yeah, he was really... I spent more time with the nanny than I spend with you. You don't love me enough.

Like, you know, you don't, I know, he'll throw out some pretty serious emotions. So at first it's guilt and then it quickly, because we try to talk him down and then it quickly becomes sort of, honestly, like we're becoming a patient, right? Yeah. And so, and then we have to extract ourselves and then the first 30 minutes for us are unwind as well. Because what do we do? How do we make how do we get him better prepared? What can we do to make this easier in ourselves? Is it worth going out right now? She will work through the space. Yeah, we've come down. Right. Should we work through this phase and then start introducing our, you know, date nights and other obligations

should one of us leave one of us us stay, we really were really struggling. And maybe one more piece of data collection on Mayan before we go further. So he's saying, you don't love me. You spend more time at your job than you spend with me. You spend more time with this person, like, right, kids say all types of things that are a dagger to our heart, right?

Exactly. Just tell me what would I be seeing inside the home? One of you is saying, what back? Or doing what in response? Usually it would be one of us. So one of us would try. And so one of us would like talk to him, give him a hug, hold him, say, hey,

we're gonna be back in two hours. It helps if we're more specific. So we'll be back around 830, maybe you'll still be up because he goes to bed around 738, but sometimes he's still up. Or when you come in your room, we'll give you a kiss. You know, it's Thursday,

we always do this every Thursday. You kind of like, you kind of like try to walk them through it, but he's so triggered. He's like an emotional, he's out of control. He's not like physically hitting necessarily. You're like, I think, but he's not. It's hard to write reason with him. So we just try to like ground him as much as we can.

And then sometimes he will get there. And if he gets there basically, it might be 20 minutes of this or 25 minutes of like, this sort of like tantrum kind of style. But if he gets it, he'll then say, he'll say, okay, bye, he'll say bye. And that's his way of like indicating that he's actually accepted that we're going to leave. But sometimes you have the 30 minutes to give him to work through it.

So we have to say we're almost always late to do that. Yeah. We have to say, we love you. We'll see you soon. Yeah, we'll be back tonight. He's always, he's wondering sometimes, are you, we're usually always, you know, like there's been, we've had one week in a way.

Are you, will you be back tonight? Will you, will I wake up in the morning and you'll be there? Yeah, and so there's, there's anxiety. Can we tag in and out here, right? Because if, if, if one of us feels like, if one of us is getting short or about to get short, we'll kind of have the other one tag in and out here, right? Because if one of us feels like, one of us is getting short or about to get short, we'll kind of have the other one go in and talk to him and switch.

And it sounds like I just want to make the assumption based on what you said. It sounds like he's staying with someone he knows. It's not that that's correct. Okay, just so I know. Okay, so a couple of ideas. First of all, his feelings about your going out, and it means a really important for us to separate from your decision about going out, right?

So the intensity of his feelings about it does not indicate to me that you're making a bad decision that we shouldn't, you know, do this, right? He's in an environment. It sounds like where he's safe. Like he's safe. He's staying in his house. He knows this other person, he's very comfortable, you trust that other person, right?

And he would rather you not do this and it's a huge change from a year and a half of probably never leaving him on a Thursday night. Correct. And I know it sounds like such a basic idea, but I think so often I, I mean, I do this in my kids too. Like I'll think, like how can I get my kid to do this or to stop doing this versus, okay, my kid's gonna do that

and I kinda need to help, but like how can I show up in a way that I have control over? Because when I show up a little bit differently, the system's different and kids change when the system changes. So we're gonna get more concrete than that, but that's like an overarching thing I'm thinking about. So first thing, talking about this for 20 minutes, way too long.

Way too long, right? It is its roominative, it's just kind of cycling, right? And he's not able to get the thing he even wants, which is you just to stay home, right? And he's not, he's not able to get the thing he even wants, which is you just to stay home, right? And you're not really going to be able to get the thing you want, which is it would be lovely, if he said, oh, make sense. Mom and dad, like, go have a date night. So good for your marriage. So great. I'm not going to happen. And also not his job, right? It's just not it's not our kids job to make us feel good about, know our time away from them right He's definitely experiencing separation anxiety

But in a way the more we linger sometimes and stay and stay and stay now of course I wouldn't suggest just piecing out either. There's a lot in between But it can actually kind of just make a kid Cycle more in their anxious state So if you're leaving your house at I'm making this up 730 or you're like, oh, we're off in late. And we have a whatever time the reservation is, but we have to leave at 730. I actually think it's important for the two of you to be like, we're leaving at 730. And actually keeping this period shorter is really important because what he's going to get

is we're not going to try to convince him out of this feeling. That's what we're doing in those 20 minutes. We're trying to kind of convince him out of the feeling or don't feel it as intensely. When our kids feel like we're as scared of their feelings as they are, the feelings get worse. And one of the reasons kids feel like we're scared of their feelings is that we don't want to tolerate it being there. We try to get them out of it.

So as an example, I think instead of like, hey, we do this every Thursday night and like, it's going to be okay. Hey, Nico, listen, we're going out. You're going to be really upset. That's okay. You're going to cry. And you know, whatever the Nanny's name is, is going to be with you. And at some point, the feeling is going to start to feel better. And then mommy and daddy are gonna come back. That's what's about to happen. Okay, I'm gonna take a break in next part. Pretty soon after look like this, we're about to go.

I'm gonna give you one hug. I know it's gonna feel really hard. And then we are turning and we are walking away. You're safe, we love you. We'll see you in the morning. That's the separation routine. Anything more than that makes the anxiety cycle go around and around and around. So tell me thoughts about that,

reactions to that, how that's similar, different from what you do currently. It's, I think what happens is, one of us will struggle in the moment, just sort of do it. Right. Because usually the predominant emotion is guilt, not frustration to stuff. Correct. Correct. But yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense. I do feel like one of the things that's very clear about him is that he struggles with transitions more broadly.

Yeah. And I do feel like it's really helpful to just think about the job in those moments as getting him through that transition and not necessarily having him be happy about it. And I feel like there have been, we've gotten better in a number of other parts of how we parent, we're him through transitions, but I think in general, we've made a mistake in a number of different places where we just drag it out too long, try to convince him, he's not going to be convinced, because he's saying things.

And so your rational self wants to argue with his things that he's saying, which don't make sense, but the truth is, yeah, you were missing the point. And so we struggle with it. I think it's the answer to what you're saying. But it does, it is, it is something that we've talked about before. I think of it a little bit as like, this sounds mean, but like pulling the band it off and just going because and just sort of honestly, I probably just need to practice exactly that, those words. I mean, you're getting to that next part.

Like it is practice. And there's gonna be a lot of other things we're talking about because even leading with this, maybe like that sounds a little harsh, I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of other things we're gonna do to kind of, I don't know about compensate, but like complete the package, right? But at the moment of separation, right?

When a kid is kind of really saying to you, even though he's never saying to you this, is this safe? Am I going to be okay? If we say anything, but I know you don't feel safe, but I know you're safe. I know you're worried, and I see that, and that's valid, but I'm not worried for you. If we say anything but that, our kids read, oh my God, forget me being worried. My parents are worried. Holy moly. And of course, our anxiety spikes. I don't know if you've heard me talk about this, but it's like when you're on an airplane, if you're scared of turbulence and you hear the pilot scared of turbulence, you're literally not scared of the turbulence anymore.

You're scared that that guys your pilot. You're like, oh, okay. But you also want a pilot who's going to say to you, you're scared of the turbulence. That's okay. That makes sense. You're allowed to feel as scared as you want to feel. I know how to get through this, and I know we're going to still land in Los Angeles. And so I'm going to just go back to my cockpit

and do my job. That actually is so important. When our feelings become contagious to other people, it's actually our worst nightmare because then we get somewhat of external validation that things actually are as bad as they feel. Beyond validating the emotion, which I know people talk about a lot, right?

Like you're upset or you wish we didn't go out. That's great. Sometimes kids, especially as they get older, some kids actually find that annoying, right? And they respond better to validating the magnitude of the emotion. So rather than your upset were going out, Nico, you're not upset were going out. You're not like upset the way you'd be upset, you know, if your block tower fell down, your upset like as big as this house. Actually, forget that. You're as upset as big as this neighborhood. You're upset as big as this whole country,

bigger than the country. Okay, is it North America, whatever you want to play around with? You're upset as a 10. Oh, it's not a 10, it's in 100. If he likes numbers, just use the size. And that really speaks to kids because I think what he's looking for,

and this is gonna tie into another point. I think it's even why he says that's biting things to you. He's looking for you to see that this isn't just painful. This is very painful. Again, very painful doesn't mean he's not safe and it doesn't mean you don't have to go out. He's just looking for that to be seen invalidated and for the two of you to kind of be sturdy leaders

through that. So that's another thing that you could do that in a moment or I think a lot can be done outside the moment too. So it's the next morning. Oh, last night was really hard, huh? You don't know thinking about, you know, the other day that you got really, really mad because you missed the soccer net, right? When you were playing that so mad the golden go in.

That was mad. That wasn't like last night though. Like last night was huge, Matt. Like how big was it? And even kids will even, they'll show you, they'll go, it is this big. That's how much I hate you going out to dinner. And that's actually the type of validation kids

are looking for because for me, I came home and I told my husband, like I had some horrible day, I got fired, I don't know, like horrible things happen. Like in my life, if he was just like, oh, it sounds bad. I'd be like, no, like for, you don't understand. I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and I would probably even escalate my expression because what I'd want him to say is, oh,

that's not normal bad, that's like the worst day ever. And then I'd be like, okay, that's that connection. And even hearing you talk about that, he does use very angry sometimes. Like he will try to let us know. And so we really have to acknowledge it, which I don't think we're doing. I think we're trying to bring him down

versus acknowledge it. Well, definitely trying to bring him down. We definitely acknowledge it, but we're not acknowledging the magnitude. Magnitude. One of the things that's kind of interesting, is as much as he struggles, he is going to express how he feels.

Like he'll say, I'm so frustrated right now, and he'll draw out the so really far. Or like another thing that we struggle with a little bit is kind of, I don't think it's a separation anxiety, but like we take him to soccer, he'll just like refuse to play. Cause I think he's worried that he's gonna like mess it up

or he doesn't know how, cause he hasn't been doing it for a year and all the kids have sort of advanced while he was gone. And he'll say, like I don't like how I feel right now. I don't want to feel this way, but I don't know how to make it. So you know, stop like, you'll be very expressive, which I think helps. But it, but when he gets triggered, when he gets, you know, where this anxious or mad or upset, like, it's like pretty all of encompassing, which I assume

is standard, but it is more so with him than with our others. But it brings up another point, which is, this example that Adam spoke about is also been challenging where we signed him up for a soccer league outside of school. So different set of friends all outside. He did it when he was three. It's been two years. He loved him when he was three. It's been two years. He loved it when he was three. And he, it's week five, we go on Monday and he will not play. He has all of these emotions. And he, I think, is worried. I was trying to extract what was happening over the last five weeks because every week has sort of been, I've gotten more information and we've just sat there,

but he's feeling like he doesn't wanna fail. And he's not as comfortable with playing, he's not as much in the routine as the other kids, well, at least that he's observing, and he's having these intense emotions, and he's communicating, I don't know why I'm feeling this way, I don't like it. I don't know why I'm feeling this way. And in talking to him when he's not in that state, I'm getting more of, I don't really know how to play. What if they don't like me? What if I mess up?

I feel like, even though we're transitioning to another topic, there is this the similarity. Like, when he feels something, like he said, it's just like, it's so big, and it can freeze him in like whatever state he's in. And it's hard to, it's like a little hard to move on. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And there's something similar.

I mean, one is, I was leaving one is trying something new, so obviously it's different, but there's some, there's like a thread around like just being super anxious and nervous. And it being just like you said just totally overwhelming like he just gets consumed by it. So he's there saying to you, I don't know why I'm feeling this way, right? Kind of I am and I'm stuck. I'm frozen. He's kind of saying that, right? So one of the most powerful things I think we can say to our kids is some version of sometimes we feel things and we have no idea why. And actually sometimes we never figure out why, but it's still okay to feel that way. I believe you feel that way and we'll figure it out.

More uncomfortable than any feeling is feeling alone in a feeling or feeling like you're judging that feeling because then you're actually adding elements to the feeling that make it sticky. The feeling feelings themselves are not sticky. It's the stuff we add to them. And sometimes the quest to like understand and figure it out and figure it out and figure it out can actually almost be shameful or it can just be overwhelming. And so I think there's some good experimenting.

That's what I would say you can do. I've talked about it on the weekend, and I don't know if you do this anyway, but there's some narrative a lot of us have just bought into of like, don't bring it up. Like don't put those ideas in their head. Like, that's just not true. Right, we don't put thoughts or feelings in our kids head. those ideas in their head. Like, that's just not true. Right. We don't put thoughts, their feelings in our kids head.

And it's usually not talking about stuff that gives our kids problems, not talking about it in advance. So let's say it's Saturday. I'd be like, Nico, I'm just thinking about soccer. I'm wondering if you're going to have that feeling. The like, we don't even know what to name it, but just everything feels bad. And you don't really want to do it.

Like, I just, I wonder if you'll have that. What would he say? Yes, I hate soccer. Yeah, very strong. Very strong language. I don't want to go to soccer. Yeah. I'd push, I'd be like, interesting.

It's so funny. I just called the, I don't know what to call it. You're calling it the, I hate soccer. I don't want to go. I feel like there's still a lot to figure out about that feeling, but here's something I know. When it comes up and here's that magnitude thing, I feel like when it comes up, it's huge. It's like so big. It's like another one of those like, whoa, really big feelings.

When you feel it, it's almost like if the feeling had words, it would be saying to you, you can't do soccer while I'm here. You can't do soccer while I'm here. It tells you not to do soccer. And it feels really, really bad. What I'm trying to do there is validate it and kind of get curious about it, but not insinuate that this feeling locks him into like any one set of actions. And even the idea that a feeling says something or that a feeling wants to make something happen,

we're doing something so powerful. We're really doing an act of mindfulness, which is the idea that there's a Nico and then there's something happening inside him, right? So as soon as any of us can say to ourselves, oh, there's this thought, whatever it is. There's this thought that I'm a bad parent or there's that thought that I'm not doing good job at work. The thoughts don't have the same power

because we're noticing it instead of the thought kind of becoming us. And this is like the first step I would want to be working on with him. And you being kind of like a naive scientist is just like a really good stance to take because it helps us look at things instead of judge them. You're just kind of data collecting, right? And you could ask a number of questions on Saturday. When that feeling comes up on Monday, do you think it'll be as big as last Monday

or the same or bigger? Let's just make some predictions. And maybe he's like, it'll be bigger. Oh, interesting. So if it was at here, is it going to be here? If it had 10, is it going to be like an 11? Is it going to be like a hundred? If it was the size of a beach ball,

isn't now gonna be the size of a restaurant, whatever language would help him. The questions don't matter, obviously it really doesn't. But what you're doing is you're creating a way to engage around the feeling. You're actually creating movement, which is the opposite of what you said happens, which is like this feeling comes up

and it's just like game over. That's the thing we want to shift. The feeling freezes him versus something he can look at. So before I go further, tell me about how that might go on a weekend. Can you imagine playing around with that with him? Yeah, absolutely. I think using numbers and just giving him that way to describe his feelings, I think, would be helpful.

I'm guessing he would say, I don't want to talk about it. He might say he didn't want to talk about it. Great. But if I catch him and he's willing to say, he'll say that my anger is like a million or a billion. Great. And if he says that, this is what I would say back. I am so glad you told me that

because if it's that big, just going must feel really hard. No wonder you don't want to go make sense. Oh, wow, that is such a big number. I didn't know that until you told me, I'm so glad we're talking about this. I'm seriously just over and over just kind of connecting, connecting, connecting on it, connecting on it, which is the opposite of that kind of frozen everyone get away from me state.

Now, if he says, I don't want to talk about it, that'll be perfectly normal. I'd be totally nonchalant. I'd be like, oh, that makes sense. Because sometimes parents ask really annoying things, you know. You know what's so weird? You know what I never told you? Did I ever tell you about the time blank? This is one of my favorite strategies, and I hate to call it a strategy because it feels

too clinical. And I think it's really helpful also in the separation anxiety kind of situation. Do I ever tell you about the time that I was in a drama class and I was the lead. I was the lead. And then the next year, you're never going to guess what happened. You're never going to guess the part I got. You're never going to guess it. Do you think I got the lead?

And he's going to be like, I don't know. No, right? I did it. Do you think I got the lead? And he's gonna be like, I don't know, no, right? And be like, I did it. And I didn't wanna go. So essentially what we're doing is we're solving for the aloneness. Like we always wanna solve for the aloneness. And one of the things I'm often trying to think about

is like the idea of deshaming your house, which I'm like a constantly shame is the experience of feeling alone. And if kids feel alone and something they actually feel unconnectable and going back to use the word attachment, attachments what is like the prime evolutionary force for kids they need to attach. And so if they feel unconnectable and alone, they do freeze in an animal defense state because it's actually like non conducive to survival. So we always want to be helping our kids feel less alone.

And it's obvious to us, oh, I've not wanted to join things. Like, oh, I have felt not good at things. But if we're not actually sharing those stories with our kids, they have no reason to believe those things have ever happened because our kids, and I'm gonna venture to say this about your kids, especially, you two seem like extremely capable,

smart, successful people. Is that like a okay thing to say out loud? We appreciate that hanging on my forehead. We appreciate that. Sure. I'll take it. We'll take it though. But I don't mean it as a compliment. I didn't mean that. It worked. You might know. It works against us, right? Like he, I don't know how many times he's been like, Oh, I just remember my dad being plagued with anxiety and he can't even leave the house. I just remember my mom being plagued by uncertainty

and feeling worse than everyone at something she does. Yep, that's all around me. And so if that feels like a solitary experience and no one else has ever been in that position, then he's gonna get that much more frozen, forget because the feeling feels bad, just because he feels so alone in that. Different.

So different. And then so bad. Right? And I can't even tell you with my kids, like they will come up to me. They'll be like, my daughter will fall in the sidewalk and skin her knee. And she'll be like, did you ever when you were my age fall and skin your knee while walking on Broadway? You know, like, and I was like, yeah, I act, I can't believe I didn't tell you that.

I did. But they're really just saying, like, am I good? Am I lovable? Right. Am I okay? Right. Having this experience. And so, I would share that.

And then building off that, he needs to feel like you're uninvested in his joining soccer. And that's hard to do, so you're gonna have to fake it because like, oh boy, yeah. Yeah, I gotta pivot, it's okay, I gotta do this. But you have to be uninvested, because the last thing we wanna do is take a situation that's hard and now add a power struggle to it, where if now his not joining soccer

is a way to define himself, we don't win, because kids at all age are trying to figure out who they are separate from their parents, so if they can not do soccer as a way to define himself. We don't win because kids at all age are trying to figure out who they are separate from their parents. So if they can not do soccer as a way of saying, oh, I really do know on my own person, like it's just going to be frustrating for everyone. So I think you want to give them a story on Saturday when you talk about this. Look, we are going to go. I really mean this. Maybe this is even different from what I've said. You totally don't have to join. And I would say this, after all, it's your body. I don't know exactly what's going on in there.

And you are always the only one who will know when you're comfortable doing something. That's always going to be true. I could cry thinking about that because if I want my kids to have one narrative about themselves and they go into the world, it's I'm the only one in my body and I'm the only one who knows how I feel. Like I think that's the most self-protective kind of self-talk in the world.

And I would give that to him. And then around that, not at soccer, these stories you tell. Like if you tell this story of, you know, not wanting to go to basketball, I think the quote resolution we want to give our kids is it's so interesting. One day I did join just for one drill. You know, it's so weird. I didn't wanna do it. And I did the drill. Like I kind of thought I'd wanna do it

and then I joined in, but that's totally not what happened. I had the feeling and I kinda said to myself, it's okay to not wanna do it. I'm gonna still give it a try. It's okay to feel uncomfortable. I'm going to still give it a try. And that's to feel uncomfortable. I'm going to still give it a try. And that's why we're back to this kind of two things can be true idea. We're not trying to get rid of his hesitation. We're trying to help him engage while having hesitation, truly when he's a little bit

more ready than he is now. And I think if you add all those elements of talking about in advance, kind of talking about the magnitude of the feeling, focusing on connection and curiosity, maybe telling a story, backing away from the outcome. Yeah. I think it'll loosen a little bit over time. There's a lot there. Tell me your thoughts. Yeah. No, yeah, there's a lot there.

And I think you're pretty spot on around him feeling like he's alone and needs to be heard. And so it's very clear that that's happening and just leaning into acknowledge it more and being, let's say, for theatrical, exaggerating, playful about it, is the right direction forward because it can be really taxing, right? And so sometimes I find myself shutting down. It's okay. We can sit here, but I think being a little bit more playful about it, because he's very playful and fun. It could be a really great approach and so I really like what you had said

in some of the suggestions there. I think we're leading to it. It's gonna be easier than convincing and that we don't care about these kinds of things because I mean I was the same way as a kid. So the guy I see on this. Yes. Yes. It is like a non-time as me. But I think I wouldn't want to let go and do something new with my dad when he was playing with my brother. I guess it just was I don't know. It wasn't even that I was afraid I was going to fail. It just was just

there was just like anxious about it. So I have a lot of stories I can tell him to make him feel less alone. I think that'll be much easier than us. He knows that the best songwriting, right? Particularly Monica. Yeah, just, he's really observant in that front. But I do think we can get through with storytelling. No, we should do it.

It's going to be harder to pull off, because he's one of the reasons why he is sensitive is he's, I think he's hyper-observant, like he just takes it a lot. But yeah, I think there's two tools I think are both pretty compelling. Well, you guys are, I really mean this, like amazingly open and reflective,

and those things just both really well, I think, you know, on your life and parenting journeys. So thank you so much for talking with me. Yeah, thank you for the time and the advice. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Adam and Monica, for sharing so much about what's going on in your home and for allowing us to explore different dynamics around separation. Let's tie it all together with three takeaways. One, keep your goodbyes short. We actually want to spend a lot of time exploring separation dynamics

and practicing how to say bye and speaking to underlying fears. And when the moment comes to say goodbye, do your routine, don't linger, and then leave and project confidence. Two, when kids struggle to separate or join something, remind yourself, my goal isn't to help my child get out of a feeling. It's to help my child to tolerate the feeling. Three, let's help our kids feel less alone in their struggles. When our kids feel less alone and more connected, all feelings become more manageable. You can help your kid feel less alone through storytelling.

So talk to your child about moments you had a hard time separating when you were younger or about your hesitation in saying goodbye. This helps a child build resilience during difficult moments. Thanks for listening to Good Inside. There are so many more strategies and tips I want to share with you. Head to Good Inside.com and sign up for Good Insider, my free weekly email with scripts and strategies delivered right to your

inbox. And follow me on Instagram and Facebook at Dr. Becky at Good Inside for a daily dose of parenting and self-care ideas. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Beth Roe and Marie Cecil Anderson, an executive produced by Erica Belzky and me, Dr. Becky. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review it. Or share this episode with a friend or family member as a way to start an important conversation. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.