Good Inside with Dr. Becky - More Than Someone’s Mom with Ashley Audrain

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

What happens when motherhood collides with disappointment, longing, and the parts of ourselves we thought we had to bury? In this raw and resonant conversation, Dr. Becky sits down with The Push and The Whispers author Ashley Audrain to explore the complicated terrain of identity, self-trust, and the forms of self-preservation we rely on to survive — and stay human — in the midst of parenting. Together, they unpack what it means to hold space for all the parts of ourselves: the ones we show, the ones we silence, and the ones still trying to be heard.Because being a mother doesn’t erase who you are. It just makes the work of knowing — and owning — yourself that much more essential.In honor of Mother’s Day, save 25% on any Good Inside Membership - our biggest sale of the year! You deserve real support, expert guidance, and a community that gets it. https://bit.ly/4kpFEgrGet the Good Inside App by Dr. Becky: https://bit.ly/4fSxbzkFollow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinsideSign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletterFor a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcast.As parents, the mental load is real—to-do lists, doctor’s appointments, sports practices, work events, birthday parties… Should I keep going? If your family is anything like mine, it can feel like there are a thousand things to remember and your brain is running on overdrive. What if I told you there's a way to bring a little more calm and clarity to your chaotic, always-changing family schedule?Meet Skylight Calendar. It’s a central, easy-to-see touchscreen with clear colors, so everyone in your family can stay in the loop. As someone obsessed with efficiency, it almost feels like magic how seamlessly it syncs with all of the calendars you're already using—Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, and more. I truly see this tool as your partner in sharing the mental load with your kids AND partner.And because life doesn't stop when you leave the house, Skylight offers a free companion app. You can add or update events, check off to-do lists, and stay in sync with your family no matter where you are. Another great feature: If you're not completely thrilled within 120 days, you can return it for a full refund. Ready to say goodbye to calendar chaos and hello to a more organized and connected family life? Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch Calendars. Just go to skylightcal.com/BECKY for $30 off. This offer expires December 31, 2025.Today’s episode is also brought to you by Great Wolf Lodge. As a mom of three kids, I’m always on the lookout for family adventures that offer something for everyone (including myself!). That’s why Great Wolf Lodge is high on our list of future destinations! They offer a world of fun, all under one roof, including water slides, a lazy river, a massive wave pool, arcade games, mini golf and nightly dance parties! With 23 locations all across North America, and more on the way, chances are there’s a Great Wolf Lodge just a short drive away from you. You can save up to 40% off on any stay at Great Wolf Lodge from now through August 31st when you book at participating lodges. Just visit GreatWolf.com and enter the promo code “GoodInside” – when you book.

Okay, I just want to come out and tell you that we are doing a 25% off Good Inside membership sale for Mother's Day. This is our biggest sale of the year and here's why I want you to know. A lot of our best members came as Good Inside podcast listeners because if you're listening to the podcast, what I know is you take parenting seriously, you take learning seriously, you take yourself seriously, and guess what? You're just like me. Every single thing in our membership, all of the workshops and videos can be listened to on the go just like a podcast. So I wanna make sure you know,

if it's been on the back of your mind, now is the perfect time to jump in and invest in yourself and your family. Head to goodinside.com or check out the show notes for more. You might notice we're not in our typical studio and that is because I am in the city of Toronto. And while I was here, I just could not pass up the opportunity to talk to author Ashley Audrain. And let me just say what this conversation is not going to be about. This conversation is not along the theme of, oh, motherhood. Enjoy every

moment. Right? Right, that is not what we will talk about. As parents, the mental load is real. To-do lists, doctor's appointments, sports practices, work events, birthday parties. Should I keep going? If your family is anything like mine,

it can feel like there are a thousand things to remember and your brain is running on overdrive. Well, what if I told you there's a way to bring a little more calm and clarity to your chaotic, always-changing family schedule? Meet Skylight Calendar. It's a central, easy-to-see touchscreen with clear colors so everyone in your family can stay in the loop. As someone obsessed with efficiency, it almost feels like magic how seamlessly it syncs with all the other calendars you're already using. Google Calendar, Apple

Calendar, Outlook, and more. I truly see this tool as your partner in sharing the mental load with your kids and partner. Because there's no more, mom, when's my soccer game? Or, wait, what time do I need to pick the kids up? And because life doesn't stop when you leave the house, Skylight offers a free companion app. You can add or update events, check off the to-do lists, and stay in sync with your family no matter where you are. Oh, and another great feature. If you're not completely thrilled within 120 days, you can return it for a full refund.

Ready to say goodbye to calendar chaos and hello to a more organized and connected family life? Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars. Just go to skylightcal.com slash Becky. That's S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T-C-A-L dot com slash Becky for $30 off. This offer expires December 31st of this year. We're going to talk about so many different things, but let's just start kind of with you. You have these two books right here, The Push, we have The Whispers, and they're both books

that like really touch on modern motherhood andhood and the dark sides of motherhood. And so what led you to start writing? Well, thank you for having me, first of all. It's really a thrill to chat with you. So I'd always wanted to be a writer. I was doing something completely different with my life. I was working in public relations. And, you know, I think I, when it comes down to what to write about, like what to spark the initiative

to write, for me, that was motherhood. And I had always sort of had this fascination with motherhood long before I decided to have children myself. I remember being younger and sort of looking at the mothers around me, my own mom and my aunts and the mothers of my friends and really having this awareness that

it can't be exactly what it looks like. It always felt like there was a performative aspect to it. Even as a young girl, I remember thinking that. And I remember thinking like, why do women do this? Why do women become mothers and why do they want to? And what does it really feel like? So I'd always been quite fascinated and went into motherhood myself with a lot of trepidation.

Wasn't sure if I was going to like it or if it would be for me or what it would be like. But as we know, life happens and you're in a relationship wasn't sure if I was going to like it or if it would be for me or what it would be like. But as we know, life happens and you're in a relationship and we decided it was, you know, we were going to do this, we're going to have a baby and we're lucky to be able to. And then everything sort of went fine for the first fine pregnancy and fine for the first two weeks. And then first two weeks after my son was born. And then when he was two weeks old,

he became very, very ill, like overnight almost. It was, he one morning just looked gravely ill and we rushed him to the emergency room at the Children's Hospital here in Toronto. And they took him right away and we could tell something was very, very wrong. And soon after that, he was diagnosed with a serious chronic illness that eventually we knew he needed an organ transplant. So it was, it was, I mean, that really just rocked us, you know,

like really, as we know, motherhood to begin with is such a huge life change with so much emotion and so much going on. And then to learn two weeks in that you have a child that is that ill, you know, and that your whole, his whole life is going to, you know, this is going to be a part of him and us and our family forever, was just was so heavy and it was so much. And I remember at the time thinking, you know, you went through all kinds of emotions, of course, like, you know, scared and sad and worried and guilt and all of those things. But as the weeks and months sort of unfolded and we were living

at the children's hospital and our lives were so all of a sudden so medicalized, I remember like really clocking this feeling of disappointment. And as mothers, the one thing we are not supposed to feel is disappointed. You know, you are only supposed to be grateful and you are only supposed to see this as a gift. And you know all of those feelings were sort of taught to have and while I loved and connected with this little boy with this baby like right away, I was just I was such conflicting feelings about what motherhood was for me and what that was going to be like. It looked and felt nothing like what society

had told me it would feel like. And so I guess he was probably around six months old and I started to get my footing again and we weren't at the hospital so much and life was sort of starting to come back. And I remember thinking, I need to write my way through this. I need to write my way through these feelings and through this experience, you know, this whole experience. And so that I started writing then what became the push, what became my debut novel. And I think at that time, I just wanted to write about the darker side of motherhood. I wanted to write a story about a woman for whom motherhood was nothing like what she expected and nothing like what society told her it would be. And so while my main character, Blythe, her story is very different from mine, but all of that experience and emotion,

all of that feelings I think are in that first book about her. And I really, since then, I've really just been consumed with writing about this other side of motherhood, the other side of what it means to be a woman and in that role and the expectations that are put upon us. I find that all fascinating, endlessly fascinating. Well, let's actually start there with the expectations. With the expectations, what you said really struck me. You saw this version of motherhood when you were a kid

and there was a part of you that like called bullshit on it internally. So maybe that was, you know, that felt performative and that I'm sure relates to kind of these general themes we all take in of like what it means to be a mom or maybe it's like, what is a good mom? Yeah. Like what does a good mom do? what is a good mom like? What does a good mom do? What does a good mom feel? What does a good mom think? Yeah, a couple things there.

Like I think I really I think as I became a woman like grew from being girlhood into womanhood, I think I really started to feel this pressure or this expectation that womanhood is motherhood, you know, that those two things are sort of like one, like I didn't have many examples in my life or I didn't see many women who chose not to be mothers. Like I personally, like in my kind of sphere and it sort of felt like, oh, we equate these, these two things. Like to be a good woman is to be maternal is like you go from girl to mom? Yeah, exactly. And there wasn't really that, like to me it was just, I remember the debate of whether

or not to have kids or whether or not to become a mother. And it sort of felt like, well, this is just what you're supposed to do, you know? And intellectually I knew better. But emotionally, I think I really was caught in that, you know, caught in that feeling of like, this is just what you do. And actually, there's almost achievement in that, you know, as a woman, being a mother felt like a sort of achievement for me that I needed to do or have or prove. And so life sort of rolled, you know, that way.

I know we've you and I have talked earlier and I know you're doing such having such great conversations about this idea of the good girl and there is this also right alongside the idea of the good mother you know and what that is and I think those two things really feed into feed into each other you know. What does the good what does the good mother do? Maybe we can go back and forth because I have I have have something I'll share first, because I was actually talking about this with friends. And we were kind of all laughing about it, that you have kind of your kids' class party announcement.

And they're like, here's the sign up for what everyone can bring. And we were kind of laughing. I'll share that. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to get paper towels. Like the orange juice. And then on the other end, there's like the homemade cupcakes or the, you know, and again, we're talking in extremes, there's so much nuance, right? I think we know now like we can feel grateful and disappointed at the same time, although society doesn't tell us that's true. And so we don't live that truth even if our brain

kind of says it to us. And again, there are moments, you know, me too, I can make the cupcakes. And there are moments every parent hopefully gives themselves permission to be like, oh, I'm going to sign up for paper towels and the easiest thing before someone else does that. Yeah. But I guess to me, like the good mother, yes, like shows up at the bake sale with not the paper towels or not the home, you know, not the store bought chocolate chip cookies, but like the homemade cupcakes and I know the icing probably looks really good and none of them toppled over. I don't know the car and like their kid didn't take a bite out of one and put it back as a prank or something like that. So that's one version.

I'm curious what kind of conjures up for you. Exactly that. It's so funny today, even this morning, I had an email from my daughter. She's in grade two. And I had an email from her teacher that went to all the parents of the class saying, we're going on a field trip next week.

And who wants to sign up for the field trip? And I saw the email and I thought it's that it's that you cannot get rid of that voice in your head that says the good mother would sign up for the field trip. Yeah. Do I want to go on the field trip? No, I don't want to go on the field trip. And my daughter is going to say to me, did you sign up for the field trip? Yeah. And do I lie to her and tell her I signed up, but I didn't get picked? Or do I be honest with her? Or like, how do you handle this? You know, it's because the reality is like, I don't want to go on that field trip. What do you want to do that day? I want to, I want to write. I just want to, I want to write. That is what I want to do

that day. And so do I say to her, I'm, I didn't sign up and I'm going to write that day. I'm going to work that day. And how does she feel about that? Or do I just say, Ashley, just sign up for the field trip and go, you know, it's like that. And it's so funny to I was my sister just had a baby her first. And she was telling me about how, you know, the baby's only like two months old. And so she's still at home and she's getting her bearings and she's tired and the sleeplessness. And she had an afternoon where all she wanted to do was just sit on the couch and watch an episode of The Housewives. That's just all she wanted to do. She's tired, you know, all we remember what those days were like. And so she has said she put the baby next to her and she had her laptop and she opened her laptop and turned on the episode of The Housewives.

And of course she deserves to sit on the couch and watch an episode of Housewives after being up all night feeding. With some bonbons. With whatever she wants, whatever she wants. But she said that she felt like the baby was watching her and she felt like the worst mother sitting there having this baby watch her watch The Housewives. And I, and we were laughing. But I get it. It's like from the very beginning, you feel like like nobody was actually judging her. The baby is two months old, but you don't feel that way. You feel like you're not doing

the right thing. You're not entertaining. You're not engaging the baby. The baby is watching you consume this reality TV show. You're not going for a walk in the sunshine. You know, it's like from the very beginning to now, you know, these examples that we're sharing with kids that are older, it's like, it's this prevalent thing you cannot get away from. Yeah. It's so hard. It's so hard to like, to do the thing that you want to do over the thing that you think you should do, yes. As a mom of three kids, I'm always on the lookout for family adventures that offer something for everyone, including myself. That's why Great Wolf Lodge is high on our list of future destinations.

They offer a world of fun all under one roof, including water slides, a lazy river, a massive wave pool, arcade games, mini-golf, and nightly dance parties. With 23 locations all across North America, and more on the way, chances are there's a Great Wolf Lodge just a short drive away from you. You can splash the day away in any season, since the water park is a warm 84 degrees year-round, and then wind down in one of several themed suites. They even have bunkbed sleeping areas just for the kids to enjoy after a fun day of splashing and playing. Best part? I'm excited to announce an exclusive offer just for our Good Inside audience. You can

save up to 40% off any stay at Great Wolf Lodge from now through August 31st when you book at participating lodges. Just visit greatwolf.com and enter the promo code GOODINSIDE when you book. That's one word, GOODINSIDE, at greatwolf.com. Book now at greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack. Recently, I actually did a poll on Instagram, kind of just look in any healthy relationship, I believe there's a balance. I mean, 50 50, but just that both exist. Any healthy relationship involves some amount of taking care of yourself and some amount

of taking care of another person. And sometimes there's this beautiful overlap where, wait, that's crazy. Like what I want for myself is exactly what you want from me. And there's this beautiful synergy. And yet most times there's not. And so there's this give and take like I'm not getting the thing I want because I don't know making this up, but I've never gone on your field trip for 18 years and today's the day I'm going to do it. And then there's let's say the other extreme of I've gone

on every field trip for 18 years and I feel like I'm gonna scream and you know, kind of go crazy and I'm totally losing myself. And today's the first day I'm gonna say, not only did I not get picked, honey, I actually didn't even sign up, right? So those are the two extremes. But what I asked was just which comes more naturally, right? And our Instagram, you know, is, I think it's like 92% women. Okay. And so I said, what comes more naturally? Kind of gazing in and taking care of your own needs or gazing out and taking care of someone else's needs.

What do you imagine though? What was the response? Yeah, out of a hundred, what was? Oh, like overwhelmingly looking out at everyone else's needs. 90. Wow. Wow. Right? Wow. Yeah. Out of 100, what was? Oh, like overwhelmingly looking out. Yeah. Everyone else is neat. 90. Wow. Wow. Right? Wow. Yeah. And then this, you know,

one of the things I think about with motherhood all the time and this, you know, and I was saying this to you earlier where I think people used to say this about me and good inside and I'm kind of, I hope people don't say this. They're like, no one for the scripts, for the tantrums. I love a good script for a tantrum. I love a good the tantrums. I love a good script for a tantrum. I love a good script for a bedtime.

I love a good script for a sibling argument. We all need those tools, but I actually really hope that's not what good insight is known for. And instead, if we're known for something, it would be like women saying, I feel a lot more empowered and confident, and I just happened to find that through my parenting journey.

But one of the things that really came up through this poll, right, was I feel so guilty when I take care of myself. Self-care feels selfish. Yes, yeah. And I derive like my value, like my true value and worth by taking care of other people.

Right. And that's all true here. But then this other thing is true as well, which I find really interesting. While we're getting that short-term like filled up, kind of my old circuitry says I'm supposed to take care of everyone else and be a good girl, which means this kind of total self-sacrificing moms,

I never get my needs met. Which means there's going to be one moment when something very, very small happens and I completely lose my shit on everyone. And then what I always find extra unfortunate, it's like we end up apologizing, even though to some degree, it's like, wait a second. Right. Yeah. I'm apologizing for this moment. Yeah. But there's a whole ocean underneath that.

Yes. Yeah. I really relate to that. I really relate to that. And as you're speaking, I'm thinking of this idea of connected to something you mentioned earlier about what is the good mother? What club? And I'm interested. I'm so interested in how you would answer that question because I sometimes I'll get that in when I was doing interviews for the push or for the whispers where, you know, those, those, I think they're very real, realistic, you know, portraits of mothers, the mothers in those books, but, um, but they're not, they don't always come across as the most likable, you know, women or the most likable

characters. Um, which is something we talk about a lot in fiction, but like about women characters and female characters being likable or not. Um, but I would often get asked like, well, what is the character, a good mother? And I, and it, and I, this idea of this phrase of the good mother, it makes me feel like it makes me cringe. It makes me feel icky in the same way that like a good girl does, you know? And so often I really struggled with how to answer that question in interviews for a long time, or when I was talking about the book. And sometimes I would default to this idea of, which I actually don't agree with now, but I used to sort of

default to this idea of it's, it's someone who's trying their best. Are you always trying your best? Well, then you're a good mother. And now I actually, I don't know if I believe that anymore because I feel like sometimes you're allowed to not always be trying your best and that's okay. And I think it's taken me a long time to acknowledge that or to feel that in myself as a mother. I mean, it's exactly, it's what we're talking about. Like is giving your best, doing your best bringing the nice cupcakes? Like, yeah, is doing your best bringing the, you know,

it's like, is doing my best going on the field trip? Well, yeah, I could, like I could. So it's like giving yourself permission to not be doing that or to not be behaving in that way. But what do you think? Like, what's your first reaction? My first reaction is actually very similar to yours, which is like, I feel like a cringe feeling.

Yeah. Which I think whenever I notice that in myself with a question, part of me has learned to trust. Like, I just, I don't really wanna answer that question. I mean, the only way I would answer that question is, what does it mean to be a good leader? Because I think parents are leaders. I mean, I actually think, you know, with,

honestly, what draws me every day to like, want to continue doing this work at Good Inside is actually thinking about parenthood that way. There's a lot of intention and effort and work going to understand leadership in the workplace and leadership in sports. And we've actually kind of revolutionized how we think about those two fields

for like, you really shouldn't yell at your employees anymore. Not only cause it's not nice, it just actually doesn't get the best out of them. And berating professional athletes isn't the way to go. We should work on their self-talk and help, whatever it is, right? And yet with children, it's like the last area to humanize. And I guess I think about good leaders, or what I would say is like a sturdy leader, as someone who's able to be connected to themselves and connected to someone

else at the same time, that you have enough boundaries that you know what you want. And that not in any given moment, like a field trip, because that really limits how we define ourselves. But let's just say over the course of time or some amount of time, a month, I'm making that up. I, in general, kind of know what I need and I can get my needs met. So, one of the things in the push that I kept thinking about is I'm kind of on this tear, okay? And the most extreme version that I don't even believe in, but I'm kind of going to say it just for impact, is there's no such thing as maternal instinct. And the reason I think that's a powerful thing to think about is I think there's just no

other thing we do in life that's hard and important, like parenting. There's nothing else like that, that we tell people they should do solely on instinct. It would be cruel to tell doctors, you know, oh, you have an instinct for being an oncologist. People are like, oh, I probably should still go to medical school, right? And I think this idea of maternal instinct is what makes so many moms feel broken and like a failure when things are hard. Because if something should come on instinct alone, and if you're having a hard time, there's really only one explanation, something's wrong with you or something's wrong with your kid.

Having said that, I definitely believe that there are these moments of maternal or paternal intuition. So there are these moments where like you just know like and I think sometimes you know something's going on with your kid and a doctor's like they're fine and you're like I just know not to leave this office right and that plays out and I'm just curious how you think about instinct about intuition how that played out in the push how you think about in your own life. intuition, how that played out in the push, how you think about it in your own life. Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, and I wrote about this a lot in The Whispers too, because like this, just this idea of The Whispers, you know, as it relates to women and mothers is, is that thing that you have, you do have, I think that you really do have a knowing about things a lot of time.

And I don't know if it's instinct, but it's a knowing. It's like a knowing that you feel within yourself. It could be about your marriage. It could be about a friendship. It could be about your children. And I think there's this idea that, a lot of times with that knowing or with these whispers that we have, they're sort of like always there.

And the question is more like, do you wanna listen to them? Like, are you open and willing to sort of like always there. And the question is more like, do you want to listen to them? Like, are you open and willing to sort of listen to it or not? And a lot of that comes down to like, how much we trust ourselves, right? And how much we've been made to feel like we can trust ourselves or not, you know?

And so much of this, I think comes so much of it, I think as women comes down to childhood and the ways that as girls were raised. And I thought about this so much, um, because I was never someone who, I was not like, uh, I didn't like to babysit. I w I didn't love to like, role play motherhood sort of stuff. Um, but I, but I really noticed that like my daughter really does, you know, it comes to her very, it comes to her more naturally than I,

than it ever did to me. I can see that in her and I've always seen that in her. But I've also been very conscious about the way that I speak to her about that. Because I think that we can often speak to young girls in a way that presumes their maternal ability or presumes their interest in motherhood. Like we might say to someone, like we might say to a little girl,

like people would say to my daughter, oh, like when you're a mom, you'll see, oh, well, when you're a mother, this assumption that you will be one, you know, it starts that young, like we get the idea in our head that young. You're going to be such a good mom. You'll be such a good mom. Or I would say, you know, and I was guilty of this. I write about this in the push because the main character experiences this. But I would even say to like friends who were expecting,

I would say, you're going to be amazing. You're going to be a natural. You're going to be such a good mom. And like you hear that over and over through your life as a young woman. And so when it doesn't necessarily feel that way, when it doesn't feel loud and clear for you as a mother, you do start to doubt yourself and you do think something's wrong. So I just think it starts so young and I know with my daughter, I try to be so

aware of that, that there can be, you know, that then again, it comes back to what we mentioned that tie between womanhood and motherhood and how that better be there, that instinct better be there, you know? Yeah. Well, look, me and you both have these deeply feeling kids. I know your son, mine's my daughter. But one of the things I think about her in terms of, you know, childhood and how that relates to adulthood and kind of confidence and trust is believing your kids experience. So true. And a lot of what sort of I'd written about in the push with Blythe, the

main character and her experience of motherhood is she's having doubts. Like she's having doubts about the way her child's behaving. Like, is she noticing things? Like she's, she's having those in those, those feelings, those like gut feelings about sort of what's going on in the family and the dynamic. And, and, you know, she certainly grew up in a way where nobody was telling her that they, that she was never having that validation of her feelings or her experience. And she very much carries that through to womanhood.

And then even her partner can't do that for her. Even her partner never says, I believe you. Yeah, he doubts her and her mother-in-law doubts her and everybody around her doubts her because her truth is inconvenient. We're talking about this is an inconvenient woman and she becomes that in that book that what she believes to be true is not convenient for anybody else around her.

And in fact, it's uncomfortable. And so there's no validation. There's no belief. And so yeah, you can really see how as a child, like just just programming a kid to know what that feels like to be believed, you could you could see how I mean, my hope is that my kids carry that through and they don't have that doubt in themselves. So they don't need the outside validation as much you know, as they might.

I'm just thinking about that binary that like, I don't love to think of binaries, I like to think that multiple things can be true. And it does feel like this binary that like, I don't love to think of binaries. I like to think that multiple things can be true. And it does feel like this binary, like either, either I can prioritize what feels true or I can be convenient to everyone else. Yeah. And you often can't, you often can't do both. Right. You often can't do both, right? And I think as women, yeah, like being convenient,

pleasing, being so attentive to everyone's needs that you can meet other people's needs, maybe even before they say them, which obviously requires you to completely self-abandon any type of attention to your own needs. We got a lot of reinforcement for that, right? Yes, oh yeah, yeah, I really feel that. I really feel that.

A, I think when my kids were very, very young, I had a really hard time with that. And I don't think I did practice that. I think, you know, my little piece of that was stealing a few hours every week to go write. You know, that was, we would have a a so lucky to have a babysitter come a few times a week. And instead of doing the groceries for the family or going to a workout class

that I knew I needed to do or cleaning the house or whatever it was, I really tried to fiercely protect those hours to run down the street to the coffee shop with my laptop and just write because I knew that's what I wanted to do. I did not have a book deal. I was not getting paid. I was on maternity leave. There was no financial incentive to do that. I just knew that I needed to do that for myself. What was the feeling in you of writing? How would you describe it? Oh, it was a real freedom. It was a real freedom, I think. And I felt most myself when I was writing. And I think the experience of motherhood,

especially sort of in those early days of like going through all the medical stuff and everything, was so I did not feel myself. And actually, you know, it's so interesting is that at the, I mean, it's, as we said, it's such a big identity shift anyways, but I think this is very common of most children's hospitals, is that at the, I mean, it's, as we said, it's such a big identity shift anyways, but I think this is very common of most children's hospitals, but at the children's hospital,

the staff who are just incredible, they cannot keep track of a child's name and all the parents names. They just can't. It's not, it's hard. That is a hard thing. And so they know your child's name, but you are always referred to at my son's name is Oscar. So I was always referred to as Oscar's mom, Oscar's mom, mom, mom. And so for months in that hospital, nobody ever said my name. Like you just need. And so you it's just this real tangible, you know, racing of kind of who you were. And and there's such that that to me was so symbolic of this real loss of identity at that time. But when I was writing, it was like back to me, it was just for me, I wasn't sharing it with

anybody. I never thought anybody would read this book or whatever it became, you know, it was just an exploration of my own thoughts and ideas and all of that. Now, I there's such privilege in that, I really acknowledge that there was such privilege and having a babysitter and being able to go do that, you know, during the day, sometimes, like a couple of times a week. But, but that was that really, I think, was like a taste for me of like doing having the thing I want being inconvenient, you know, the convenient thing would have been to get the groceries done and do the laundry and help everybody else in the family. But but as my kids have gotten older, like they're now seven and almost 10,

and I'm finding, I am feeling, we were talking about this, feeling a little more space for that, it becomes a little easier. So much more. Yeah. A couple of things I just wanna say about that. So number one, this idea that when you do start to wonder

about what you might want for yourself, or I describe it for me as like what lights me up inside. That's the feeling. Like it feels almost explosive in like a good way. Like I feel, I don't know, I just feel like lit up. Like the light bulbs go on when I'm doing something that really fulfills me in that way. Almost always it does go hand in hand with inconveniencing someone else. Like very rarely do the stars line up when everyone's gonna like give you an applause or

be like you go girl you deserve that. Just and I just think knowing that helps. The other thing I want to say is that yes you and I both have older kids right mine are 7, 10, 13. This is so much easier now. Like just literally the hours they're out of the house. Yes. You know their ability to put on their own shoes and tie their own shoes. The fact that if we don't have a snack when we're out, it's not World War III. Those things weren't true in my house years ago. And the fact that they are true now is literal more energy and space. And the last thing I want to say, and I think you and I probably both have heard this from women is people say all the time, okay, babysitter or no babysitter, I have an hour to myself. Why do I feel like I'm having a panic attack? I don't know what

to do. I don't know what I would like to do. I don't know what would feel good. And this feels more anxiety producing. And so I'm just going to deep rage clean my house. Exactly. And yell at my kids when they're home. And maybe my partner, if I have one, for leaving the house so messy. Which by the way, I only say that because I used to be a pro in that pattern. Okay, so just a couple of things about that. And this is one of the things I actually talk a lot about in our mom rage program,

which is one of the ones I'm proudest of, which I'm gonna rename cause it's not just about moms, but it is this kind of feminine kind of version of ourselves we're told we have to be and how that leads to rage is if you had a friend who was starving, literally they hadn't eaten in 10 days or maybe, you know, 35 years, let's say. And they were presented with a menu and they were like, I just don't know what to order. I don't know. Nothing sounds good. I don't know what I would like.

I don't even know what to do. I know the advice we'd give them. Just because you don't know what you want doesn't mean you shouldn't try something. And it's the process of ordering something where you'll learn over time, like, I like that wrap. I did want a burger. I did want a salad, whatever it was. But you would never tell a starving friend,

well, if you don't know what you want, just don't order something. Right, just don't eat. And I think the freedom of like, I won't know what I like until I dabble. And it might take you 30 dabbles. Where you're like, I actually hate watercolor painting. Why did I even think that was me?

Okay. Or I do like to take a little walk around the block, but I wouldn't have known that if I didn't give myself permission to try something. And I know for myself, when I adopted that attitude, I just knew rage cleaning maybe was on the menu, but I just had a feeling it wasn't my best order. Other things were like gonna have a little bit more high potential

And I feel like for anyone listening who's like, okay Ashley, dr Becky you guys have your lit up things like I don't even know that's okay I think you and I probably both started there but just the freedom to try without knowing if you like it Yeah, I feel like was a big kind of step. More soon. Thank you.