Good Inside with Dr. Becky - When DFKs, Birth Order, and Siblings Collide

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

Deeply Feeling Kids just feel things more intensely and when you throw their siblings into the mix and sprinkle in some jealousy, ooh boy! This week, Dr. Becky talks with a couple about Deeply Feeling Kids, birth order, and sibling dynamics all at once. To learn more about the DFK workshop: https://bit.ly/3uvV0vqJoin Good Inside Membership: https://bit.ly/49aVztvFollow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinsideSign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletterOrder Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books.For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcastTo listen to Dr. Becky's TED Talk on repair visit https://www.ted.com/talks/becky_kennedy_the_single_most_important_parenting_strategyToday’s episode is brought to you by Garanimals: Garanimals is the original mix-and-match clothing brand for babies and toddlers in sizes newborn to 5T. Each Kid Pack contains carefully curated tops and bottoms that easily mix and match. Pick any top and any bottom, and voila! Instant outfit. And with up to a month’s worth of outfits in just one box, Garanimals’s Kid Packs take care of a whole lot of outfit planning. You can find all their fun mix-and-match styles from their new spring collection in Walmart stores and on Walmart.com.

Deeply Feeling Kids and Sibling Dynamics I'm asked about these two things all the time. What do I do? My older kid is a deeply feeling kid. They feel things intensely. They also have intense reactions. And I can deal with a lot of that. But when it comes out at one of their siblings,

when they're hurtful with their words, when they're getting in arguments all the time, when I notice my younger kid's confidence taking a hit, then I feel really stuck. This week, I'm talking to a couple about deeply feeling kids, birth order, sibling dynamics, all at once. Hi, welcome.

Hello, hi. Hello. Let's jump in, just one of you can start. Tell me a little bit what's on your mind. Kind of we often have like a top issue that feels burning. And then if you want, you could also add on, hey, I'd really like to get X, Y or Z by the end of our conversation. So I know how to give you something helpful.

So we've got three children, two boys and a girl and our eldest, who has just turned eight. He's like super kind and thoughtful, very diplomatic, never wants to kind of rock the boat, very kind of socially cautious, loves nature, loves science, not into sport or anything like that. I'd say kind of gross motor skills have always been a bit more challenging. Yeah, he's more into sort of like the quieter reading and those sorts of activities. And then our middle son, so his younger brother, is the opposite.

He's like really outgoing and confident. He's a real entertainer. He generally finds life easy in any situation. He loves all sports and he's willing to practice to kind of get good at things and essentially it's becoming a bit tricky because there are things that our middle son can now do that the eldest is not able to do and so that's kind of causing some difficulties at home I'd say. It kind of feels a little bit like, I've heard you talk about this before, how a little bit like the birth order is almost wrong. Our eldest son can be quite mean and unkind to his younger brother. He's like super kind with everybody

else, like literally everybody who's got a little sister who he's just exceptionally patient and kind with, but he just really struggles to say or do anything nice at all for his younger brother. And it can just, essentially, we would like your help in helping us, I guess, find ways to support their relationships so that our eldest kind of has enough self-confidence to not be affected by his younger brother as much and also to protect our middle son from this kind of constant belittling that he's kind of experiencing at home. So I want to say this, even though I think I can just tell from the way you described

it, this is so normal. Like nothing is wrong with an older kid when they're doing this. And having kids where you say, wow, I feel like my kid can say nothing nice to the other child. And parents will say, like, I mean it, like literally nothing. Well, that really makes sense if a sibling feels like they represent, like, everything that's threatening, right? It would be like having a friend who everywhere you're walking around with them. It's like, they get all the attention, they get the promotion, they get the house, they got the new car. It's just all the time.

And so I'm like, can you be happy for your friend, except it's not even a friend. It's a sibling you're sharing your parents with, so you're inherently competing for attention and love and good enoughness, because that's what siblings unconsciously do. I imagine someone saying to me, Becky, like, can't you just say something nice to your friend?

And I'd be like, so like, I would have some really choice words to say back. And so I just want to normalize this. Plus, I'm an adult, seemingly with better coping skills than your child. When you have a sibling who does really represent, and not only just represent, like brings to life so many qualities

and so many achievements that at least a part of you yearns for and doesn't have yet, or maybe ever, it's just really, really complicated. And I'm sure for the two of you, it's hard for you too, because you're probably managing a lot of conflict. And I think unconsciously when we have kids, we're like, oh, my kids are gonna be friends.

And then they're like, oh, that's not really happening, not right now. I just also wanna separate what's happening today from everything that could happen years later. You don't even mention this, but I think it happens for all of us. To me, like the fast forward error is the number one thing we do as a parent,

is we're like, oh, my kids are never gonna be friends, or my older one's never gonna feel confident in themselves, or he's always gonna have a brother who's better than him. And then like, they're gonna be 18, and like, they're gonna be fighting even as teenagers. Like, and then what ends up happening is we intervene today based on all of our anxiety and storytelling about the future

Instead of like just what's happening in front of us and so I know for me and this happens with my kids too Just catching myself and having a name for that like oh, there's that fast forward error. Okay. It's not 2035 It's 2023 right okay? My kids are not 40 and you know, whatever they're like eight years old is really helpful across the board. I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. We'll be right back. If you're anything like me, mornings can be a real struggle. Between making breakfast, prepping lunches, and making sure our kids actually brush their teeth, the last thing we have time for is a kid having a meltdown about what they're wearing.

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sanity. Here's to Garanimals. Okay, so the first thing I want to jump into, and I think this is going to be especially helpful for your older child who I'm just going to call Alex, is really separating feelings from behavior. This to me is important across the board and parenting, but it's especially important when we have a kid who's really, really struggling. And it starts with us separating those and saying, okay, what is a feeling? What is a behavior? And then also laying

on kind of all feelings are important. All feelings are good. All feelings are allowed. Some behaviors are not allowed. That's really, really important. And you see my hands as I'm talking, and there's something really important to kids when you're explaining this to like visualize that to be like, look at one of your hands, like, there's something really important to kids when you're explaining this to like visualize that. To be like, look at one of your hands, like there's feelings over here, there's behaviors over here. There's not one feeling you're ever gonna have that we're gonna tell you not to have.

There's not one feeling that's even bad. And kids like hearing this, feelings are information. And as we talk about with school, like you don't have to agree with all the information you learn, but it's important to listen to information, to learn about information. All information is like worthy, right? And the feelings in your body are information. I'm just going to pause here.

Tell me your reaction to that. I think, because we affirm all the feelings, and yes, so thank you for that. That's something we've been doing. With Alex, with our oldest child, I think his feelings are so deep that sometimes he needs help expressing those. So yeah, I guess it'd be helpful if you have any tips or suggestions

for how we can help him voice those, because he kind of clams up as well. You know he's having these big feelings and he's struggling through things. But when you ask him what's going on, it's even the questioning that can really make him clam up. Okay, quiet. So one thing is helping him to articulate those things and express himself. But that seems joined with the confidence that he gets from doing something well. And then one of the compounding issues, I think,

is that... So he's at this really interesting point where he's discovered the things that he's really into, like gardening and craft and... But everything you watch on TV and everyone in the playground wants to be a superhero or football player. So it's really hard for him to put down the things that he knows he doesn't enjoy and that's not him. And to celebrate the things that is him. Those are two things that I think complicate things. Okay. So yes, the foundation is really important for us to set and it's really important to set with your kids because it's going to be something that you can refer back to. Like, hey, remember when we were talking about that difference?

I would suggest talking to him about that and he might look at you and say, like, hey, can I have a snack now? Or like, I don't want to talk about this. That's fine. That's like, he's just saying, I'm titrating this conversation. I'm done now. So he feels very jealous of his brother. Okay. And I think even in the realm of all feelings are okay. Jealousy is one of the hardest feelings. Like I know a lot of families are like, all feelings, okay. Like except for jealousy, that one's like kind of really difficult.

Right. It's really important to normalize that jealousy is a feeling we have when we essentially see someone else have things we want or have things that we think we should want. When it sounds like your middle child, like he is that kid, like he just like does the thing and like he's like out there and right. So I think he sees that and that makes sense. One of the things just in terms of where I'd start is I'd approach Alex after you have one of these conversations

and you say, we have an idea. You know, there are these moments when, and you don't have to say anything, you can even give him permission. While I'm talking, if you want to look into your pillow, you can do that, kind of giving kids permission to have some distance, allows them to take in our closeness in a way.

There are sometimes when it's really, really hard to be Pete's older brother. It's really hard to be Pete's older brother. And I think there's actually a lot of those times. And if I were you, I'd feel the same way. And I think there's actually a lot of those times. And if I were you, I'd feel the same way. And I think there are moments when all of that just gets so big and so high that it just comes out. And these really not nice words.

And let me be clear, Alex, like you're a good kid. We love you. And good kids sometimes say not so nice things. And I think we understand why. And so here's one of the things we're gonna do going forward. I'm gonna have some time with you alone at 4 p.m., whatever And so here's one of the things we're gonna do going forward. I'm gonna have some time with you alone at 4 p.m., whatever works your calendar. One of the things we're gonna do is just gonna be us.

Not only am I gonna let you, I actually want you to say all the not nice things in your brain about me, like all of them. I can write them down, I can just listen. Here are the things I'm not going to say back to you. That's not nice. Not going to say that. You can't say that.

Not going to say that. I'm also not going to say, oh, but remember the time Pete. Nope, not going to say that. Here are some of the things I will say back to you. I hear you. Keep going. Any other ones in there? It's actually really important that you have a space

where you can say these things. And we need to do that like actually more proactively. I know that's kind of weird that you're saying, wait mom or dad, like you want me to say, yes, we want you to say those things to us. And that is gonna go hand in hand with something else. Let me just be clear about what that is. We're just really not gonna let you say those things

to Pete anymore. And I wanna explain why. I know you might think that's for Pete's benefit, like he shouldn't hear those things. It kind of is, but Alex, like you're smart kids, you're gonna understand this. I think it's actually equally, if not more, for your benefit.

Because you are a good kid, and we know at the end of the day, it doesn't end up feeling good to you, to watch yourself say these things. And our number one job as your parent is to keep you safe. Forget me, forget me, it's on the side, we're not talking about me, it's to keep you safe. And so we're gonna invite these comments to us

very proactively, and if you wanna get creative, and you wanna say the meanest thing you've ever said, we'll be like, wow, nine out of 10, wow, that was pretty, that was pretty extreme, okay. And when you're with your brother, we're just not gonna let those things, and what does that mean? Like, I don't know, if I start being said,

we might, like, oh, we might actually like pick you up and carry to your room and say you're going to say them to us. We might move Pete away just so he doesn't hear them and you don't hear yourself saying them. Those are the two things we're going to do. I have more to say about that, but tell me your reaction to that intervention. I really love that because it feels like I think what we've kind of slipped into when it's been happening is saying to him, I won't let you say that to him,

it's you know that's unkind, that's not fair, and then it feels like we're sort of punishing him in a way, sort of telling him off as if then it becomes harder for him. So I think that approach, it feels like it's really protecting him and giving him that safe space. Yeah, and just recognizing that we're seeing, I guess seeing him and understanding that it's really hard. I mean, he does really struggle to talk about any kind of emotions with us. But I think just hearing us say that he's got that freedom and that space and the opportunity to do think just hearing us say that he's got that freedom and that space and the opportunity to do it

and that it's where he's not gonna get in trouble or he's not gonna be told off for it, I think is very freeing. Yeah. And I'll be bold, okay? So this is my kid. And they were like, I don't know, mom, like I don't wanna say anything.

Like I would see myself being like, it's like always first a swim class. It's like always first a swim class. It's like so annoying. I think you can do it in a way that your kid kind of knows you're not like trash talking your other child, but it's really almost like a form of play in this way. And I do think there's a lot of wisdom in the phrase

if you can't beat them, join them. In a way, I think when kids say things, we often come at them and like, you can't say that instead of like, where can they say that? To whom can they say that? And where can they not say that? Because if there's a force within him, there's this force to express the feeling through mean words.

Expressing jealousy through mean words is a way of basically saying, I feel vulnerable and I would rather take that vulnerability inside me Being jealousy through mean words is a way of basically saying, I feel vulnerable, and I would rather take that vulnerability inside me and turn it in to something more aggressive. So you feel as bad as I feel. I would rather transfer my vulnerability to my brother and try to make him feel bad, so I don't have to feel bad. The truth is adults do this all the time too.

And one way of starting to shift that, because what we want to get him to, it just takes time. He'll get there and it takes time is we want to be able to own our own vulnerable emotions. We're able to say, we probably don't say it to our brother at the time, but we might pull a parent aside and say, like they'd say like it's so annoying

that he's always first, like I hate it. I have a hard time feeling good about myself when I'm swimming with him. That's the best it gets. It's like, I don't think we can expect our kids to be like, when I'm swimming with my brother who always gets first, like I hate it. I have a hard time feeling good about myself when I'm swimming with him. That's the best it gets. It's like, I don't think we can expect our kids to be like, when I'm swimming with my brother who always gets first, I'm just so proud of him. I just love him so much.

Nobody says that. The best it gets is being able to own your own vulnerability and regulate it, which of course is the thing that makes space for happiness for others and generosity and empathy and all those things. But that just comes later. And the first step to being able to own your own vulnerable emotions is actually containing the anger and kind of envy essentially that comes out. And by doing this you're saying that can live here

and we won't let it live here. Instead of now, these comments coming out at inopportune times and they probably just come out as explosions from his body, we are taming the potential volcano, which really sets the stage for so many other higher order regulation strategies. Maybe this isn't something to be concerned about, but I'm just thinking, I guess my only

reservation with it is if he then told his younger brother that this is what I do and that mommy and daddy want me to say these mean things about you. Yeah. And I think this can go hand in hand with talking to Pete and being like,

first of all, what I would say to him also, time to time, is like, I know your brother loves you. I know that deep down. And I know it's also hard for him to have a younger brother who does so many things so well. And I want to be clear. That's not your fault. We love you. It's so awesome that you do so many of these things. It is hard for your older brother. and it's not okay for him to say mean things to you about it. That is so not okay. Those are his feelings, and he can't put them on you in that way.

And so I wanna be honest, right now he's having a hard time. And so we're working with him. We're gonna let him say some of those things to us. Not because they're true, but because sometimes we have to get things out of our body to be able to show someone care and love and affection, which is something you deserve from him. And so we are going to be doing that, and we're going to be taking even more seriously the times he

says that to you, and you'll see that. The impact is truly when we do allow ourselves to kind of let out steam, we don't have that explode out of us as often. So I actually would anticipate Pete is going to be the biggest beneficiary of this. And I think also, I don't know if I'll say that, I can't believe you're letting him say this to you. Or I would say to my kid, I am and look, when there's a time in your life,

when you're really having trouble with someone, I promise you, I'll listen to all of those things from you as well. That's something we'll do in this family. Like you can expect me and dad, you can expect both of us to be people that you can always talk to and express yourself to, so that we can help you figure out ways to express yourself effectively to those people.

To me, that sounds brilliant because part of it is affirming deep feelings that he has. And obviously, it's only when you affirm something that you give them kind of permission to hold it and to explore it. So rather than push it away and not legitimize it, not allow it, you're saying this is a real struggle. That sounds fantastic. I guess what my question would be, is there a danger that by logislimizing those thoughts and those words, that that becomes a kind of narrative that they begin to spin and then, so I'm

thinking about Alex and how he spends a loss of time in his head. So once we've said it's okay for you to say these things to us, could that develop other behavior that is not so positive? Look, to be honest, it's definitely like a non-traditional approach. It's not like I often say this and parents are like, okay, amazing, moving on. They're like, wait, I have some concerns. To me, the places is usually useful when parents are like, all the other things we're trying to do also, like they're clearly not working.

This thing is very powerful. These feelings are forces. And so if they don't have a place to go and where we teach kids to manage them, they will just come out, right? And so I think this is something to track. And I think as parents, we can tell when something, it's like, oh wait, this is like turned into something else, right?

And I think they should have a time limit. And I'll make sure to be there for 45 minutes, just being like, yeah, like keep going, feeds the words. Do you hate him? We wish he was never in our family. And you don't have to say it back, you know? Again, like you don't have to join in all the words, but you're kind of saying these things need to come out of you.

And like we will be a container for you. And I'd say you could write them down, we'll be there for five minutes, and then I think a kind of script or line to have that's helpful is, hey, we did this, I'll come back tomorrow, and this time is over today, and we're gonna move to something else, because I know there's actually so many things about you

that are so interesting and important that have nothing to do with your brother, and I wanna make sure those things get airtime today. Tell me about recess, you know, tell me about our project you were doing in school, right? And then you can like make that transition. But I also think the question speaks to something really important. The difference between hearing and kind of validating or trying to understand versus agreeing and condoning and encouraging. I think we conflate those two things a lot. You're already in the space of these words, they just happen to happen around his brother

too. But you saying, this is a place I can hear you, this is a place where you can say these things, I think we worry that what we end up saying to our kids is, yeah, like it's awesome to say this, you should just talk about everyone this way. I actually don't, I don't worry that what we end up saying to our kids is, yeah, like it's awesome to say this. You should just talk about everyone this way. I actually don't, I don't fear that. I really don't. I think that kids can hold the difference.

I really, really do. And you can even, when you present this to him, say, because look, I actually think that one of our big jobs is gonna be to help you feel good about yourself, which I know we're gonna help you do while you have a brother who's kind of tricky to have as a brother. And this is where we're at right now. You have a lot of these things that you want to say.

We're not going to let them be said in front of your brother for both of your sake. And so we're going to try this thing. Let's see what happens for a week. You can make it very time bound, which allows you to say after like, whoa, that went off the rails. But I really don't think that's what it's going to be. Whoa, that went off the rails. But I really don't think that's what it's going to be. If you've been with me for a while, you've probably heard me mention deeply feeling kids.

And if this is the first time you're hearing that concept, that's okay. And I'm excited for you. These are kids who truly feel things more intensely than other kids. And as a result, they have meltdowns and outbursts that are also more intense. These are also kids who do not respond well

to typical parenting strategies. You offer support, you say something like, I see you're mad and it actually makes things worse. As kids get older, things can get harder. And I'm so excited to share that I will be hosting a brand new live, deeply feeling kid workshop tailored for older kids. You've asked for this for a long time

and I'm so excited to be able to deliver. It will be held on Wednesday, February 28th at 2 p.m. Eastern. And of course, it will be held on Wednesday, February 28th at 2pm Eastern. And of course, it will be recorded if you're not able to make it live. Join Good Inside membership to access this workshop and the recording and every other tool you need to parent your deeply feeling kid with confidence. There's a link in the show notes for more. Or go to goodinside.com for more information about what you get with membership. ["The Story of the Dead"]

Okay, there's a couple of other things I wanna share. I would love one of you to kind of take on the role of telling stories to Alex about a time in your life when you were younger, when you were someone you were really jealous of. Anything a child feels alone in is more likely to be acted out in behavior. Because if our feelings are always seeking connection and our experiences are seeking connection inside our body, well, if they don't find that, then they actually have extra force and they have to come out.

And so this is a way we're kind of containing it or giving the feelings that kind of home. But to me, and I'm going to put this in quotes, like, did I ever tell you about the time is just an amazing sentence starter for every parent to have in their toolbox? For example, it might sound like this, like, did I ever tell you about the time, you know, I played soccer as a kid. Well, my best friend at the time was, you know, was Raj. And Raj was, like, really nice and, like, really popular and really smart and, like, the best soccer player. And he was, like, a good friend to me. Oh, so annoying, right? It was, like, all those things.

Oh, Raj. Anyway, there was this time that we were all out and he said to me, hey, did you see that goal I scored? And do you want to know what I said back? Do you want to know what I said? And any kid is going to be like, what do you say? And you'd be like, well, do you think I said something like nice? Like, oh, I saw it.

That was a great goal. Like, do you think, do you think I said that? And the first time we do this, I could, it would be like, probably. And this is like, it's like so beautiful. It's such a powerful opportunity to be like, oh, no, no, I didn't say that. You want to guess again or do you want me to tell you? And I'm like, let me like, tell me, okay. Well, what I ended up saying to him was, oh, Well, what I ended up saying to him was, oh, he was like, goal was basically open, like anyone could have scored. That's what I said.

First of all, if nothing happens after this and just that, I promise you, it'll be the most powerful moment of your child's day. Because what you're actually saying to a kid, which you can't actually say in words, you can only say through storytelling is, you're not so bad because you see me, and I'm like the adult you revere because I'm your parent.

And so you inherently believe I am good and capable. And if I essentially did the same things you did when you were younger, like it's proof to you that you are also a good kid who's gonna figure this out, except you can't say that. And the story says all of this. So before I go further, tell me who could take that on, who could really sell it, or maybe you're like, that literally was my life.

I had a friend named Raj who was an amazing, perfect person. And what do you think about that? I think either one of us could. And I think that that's a really great, a great idea. And I think he would totally get that. And we'll that that's a really great, a great idea. And I think he'd totally get that. And we'll have to have a word. Do we need, can both of us do that? Or does it suggest that? Yeah, you totally can. You totally can. You know, and parents will be like, but what

if I don't have the story? Am I lying to my kid? To me, it feels like any other form of play with our kids. Like when we say like, right now, a dog and a cat, I don't think we're like, wait, but you know I'm not a dog, right? Like it's just play, right? So I think we can give ourselves permission. I've never met a kid who's like, I don't know if that happened. You're just telling me that story

to help me feel less alone in my plate. They never say that. They just buy it. But there might be if they're like, wow, that's weird. Mom told me the same thing, you know, the same day. So just like plan it. But sure, you both can. And where this gets to is I can't even tell you, and this is not just in my home. This is in every single home of

any family I've worked with who starts to do this. Two things. One of my kids, he's older now, but when he was younger, used to be in these like massive tantrums and he would like throw things and like kind of be a little destructive. It would be like pure containment. The only thing that would help him get out of that moment is if I started to say, oh, did I ever tell you, wait, I cannot tell you. You do not even want it to know. And he would go, what, what?

Because I think he was in a spiral of feeling like a bad kid and the idea that I could kind of match his moment immediately like started to calm him down. It was so powerful. The second thing is I promise you, Alex will start to say to you, did you ever say something like that to Raj? And meanwhile you have to remember the names

cause you'll be like, wait, who's Raj? Right? Like my kids, it's so interesting. Like there's so many extensions of this. They'll be like, wait, did you ever steal something by accident or like take something that you knew wasn't yours, but you really wanted? Or I still remember, I live in New York City, right? And I remember when my daughter was scootering and fell and like skidding

her knee. And she literally was like, mom, when you were six, did you ever skin your knee scootering down Broadway? And I was like, yes, yes, I did. You know, because I think they're just saying, tell me I'm not alone. And that's actually the only thing I need. So I think that's going to be so powerful. And the last idea I want to get to kind of as a form of a boundary. But I think separating your boys and activities whenever is possible. I would not run circles around it.

Like sometimes you're like, they're in the same soccer class. And like, if not, I have to be here for five hours. So I'm just gonna, you know, deal with it. But it's really hard to expect our kid to learn how to regulate jealousy when they're flooded with jealousy. It's like, we can't learn to regulate a feeling when we're flooded by it, right? It is kind of like, if someone's like,

I really want to drink less alcohol, like we're not like, cool, let's talk about it at a bar. You're like, okay, like, well, let's talk about it, like over coffee or something, right? So I would think about that. Like the separation, it's not because we want to forever have this not in his face. Like there is just a reality component,

but while he's building up these skills, I think as many opportunities as you can, again, not to completely curate his life. I don't believe in that. But here and there on the margin, you know what, we're gonna do soccer separately. During Alex's play day, I'm gonna, and Pete can actually go to his friend's house.

So like he's out of the house, right? I would really lean into that, thinking about it, kind of like Alex is in a training pool, learning some skills, and he will get to the point where he can be in the big pool and then in the ocean but only if he kind of works on the skills in a safer place first. Yeah, no, that makes sense. We've actually just literally today actually. So our youngest son is going to be doing football on a Saturday and we're going to take our older boy to climbing instead. So they've got something totally separate.

That's a great example of that. So look, there's obviously a million other things, but I actually think there's, I just want to like almost review it for my own sake, right? So just remembering this feelings versus behavior, he's going to obviously feel jealous and that's okay. And our goal is to help him learn to manage and regulate jealousy, which is actually what sets the foundation for those things we really want in our kids,

them to get along, for them to be happy. But if you think about the jar of emotions we all have, the distressing ones take up space from the kind of higher level ones, unless we learn to regulate them. And then they almost take up a smaller space in the jar. And then you're like, oh, look, he said something nice about his brother,

but that doesn't come until like the second stage. So I think that's the foundation to think about. I really do think there's something about this dual strategy of inviting in the comments in a boundaries way. And then separately, like almost telling him, and if it happens in front of your brother, here's what we're doing. And I think the key there is for both of your protection.

It's actually equally as protective for him. We forget about the kid who's out of control. It's protective for him to kind of separate them. Then this kind of storytelling as a way of majorly, I say, like, de-shaming, I actually think that's going to be the one you lean into the most. And then what you're already doing, which is like on the margin separating and thinking like he's learning these skills in a training pool so he can kind of, quote, swim in slightly more advanced waters over

time. Yeah. No, that's so helpful. Thank you. You two really have got this. Let me just also say the change you're looking for, it's not going to happen in five days. To me, the change we underestimate is like as soon as we have like a slightly different framework or something and like maybe a few new things to try. I don't know if it feels this way to you, but I often like immediately

feel a little better as a parent, even though nothing's changed, because like I just have a little more pep in my step or like a little more hope. And I've total conviction that this is going to be something that you guys make a lot of progress on. Oh, thank you. I think the fact that we can see what he's like with his sister and everybody else, I know that that's who he really is naturally. So, yeah, I think it's just giving us the tools to help guide him through those very difficult feelings. And I guess we have this two-pronged approach at the moment. So one is trying to build up his confidence in the things that he's identified, which is quite new, so, and to really celebrate those.

But then at the same time, all the things that we've discussed, it's so hard to be with my my family this weekend and my sister has four boys and so the whole day was orientated around football. They came in for a drink and then it was back out to play football and they came in for cake and then it was back out and each time I was longing for the game to finish because you just knew he was finding it so hard. Almost steering away from those moments that could trigger some conflict and put him in a space where he doesn't feel confident. But then we're trying to figure out how we can kind of get him to be more confident in

the things that he loves. But the challenge is that no one celebrates that apart from us and him. So I think everything we've talked about is actually critical to building Alex's confidence. I wouldn't think about it as separate. Here's why. To me, confidence isn't feeling like the best at something. It's feeling like it's okay to be you

even when you're not the best at something. And like confidence is really all about our relationship with our feelings. It's about feeling like it's okay to be you, even when you're not the best at something. And like confidence is really all about our relationship with our feelings. It's about feeling like it's okay to be me, even when I'm feeling this way. And I kind of trust my feelings and I know this. And to me, the most confident people by the time they're adults are just able

to regulate the widest ranges of experiences. And so this is gonna sound maybe paradoxical, but I actually think a kid like Alex has more of an opportunity, not right away, but to build what is true confidence for the course of his lifetime than a kid like Pete. I worry more about kids who have like cheap wins all the time because that's not confidence.

They're actually just always used to feeling like the best. And we know how those kids do when they're 20s sometimes and I'm not trying to worry about Pete, don't worry, he's fine, but just to make an argument, sometimes those kids are like 25 and they're like, wait a second, I'm not really good at something and not everyone wants to worry about Pete. Don't worry, he's fine. But just to make an argument, sometimes those kids are like 25 and they're like, wait a second, I'm not really good at something and not everyone wants to be my friend.

And then there's like emptiness, because then we've seen that. So if you think about confidence in a different way, telling him it's okay to feel jealous, we would feel annoyed about a brother like that too. To me, that's actually gonna do more to really build his confidence than saying like, you're amazing at woodworking and like, we love your woodshop stuff or whatever he's interested in. That to

me feels almost like praise, which I actually think this is a whole other conversation. I actually think praise often can almost get in our way of building confidence because it's orient us to be like, what are people saying about me as opposed to gazing in and can I learn to trust myself? And so with the football example with the family, what I'd say is like, hey, I don't know about you, but I think it's kind of annoying that like everyone just like always plays football here. And like there's so many other activities in the world

and there's so many other things people could do to have fun. And it's kind of annoying sometimes to be in a family that like they kind of just pick one and it's kind of the one that like he likes too, like extra annoying. I don't know if you feel like that, but I kind of do. That to me is going to be confidence building for him because he is probably feeling that way. And when he hears you say that, he's like, wait, I can trust this feeling. It's okay to feel this feeling. My parents aren't afraid

of this feeling. They don't think I'm a bad person for feeling this way. That's actually very confidence inspiring. I also think it's amazing to find activities he really loves, but I wouldn't separate them. To me, they're really one and the same. And to me, the most confidence-building moments for kids come in the hardest times. Those kids, when we kind of manage those moments in a way that we really do feel like we crushed it as a parent,

not because we made our kid happy, just because we actually feel like we got that in that moment with them, that's going to be a thing that they, like, in their bodies remember when they're 20, because they're going to be in a group of friends talking about something, and everyone, like, loves talking about it, and they're going to be able to say to themselves, like, I don't even know what these people are talking about. Well, that's okay. I felt othered before. I felt different before.

I'm still valuable. I'm still lovable. Like, I can still be myself. I might even have the confidence to say, hey, sorry, can you slow down? I actually have no idea what you're all talking about. Can you explain that movie to me? Which to me is the essence of confidence. It's not necessarily being the one in the center of the conversation.

I just would really like bring those things together and say, this is actually all about building as confidence. We don't have to think about them separately. That's pretty helpful. Okay, well, you two are an absolute pleasure to talk to. And I hope you do kind of send an update on how things are going. And so in a week, if you wanna say problem solved,

I would appreciate getting that email. Sounds good? It's not a time frame we're looking at, for weeks. Yeah, yeah, a week. I said it wouldn't be tomorrow, you know, but I think in seven days we can knock this out. No, no, no, nothing's gonna happen in a week. Nothing's gonna change in a week,

except you guys will actually feel sturdy and confident. And I bet you have a couple of moments that we have that like, I don't even know the name for us, but I feel like we have these moments with our kids that we know ladder up to the big stuff. You just feel it. I actually do predict you'll have a bunch of those moments the next week.

And I think those moments are what matters. So I think that will change. Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you. All right, thank you guys so much. Thank you. Thank you. All right, thank you guys so much. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time. Thanks for listening.

To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com slash podcast. You could also write me at podcast at goodinside.com. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world. And parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents.

It's totally game-changing. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Knapp, and Kristen Muller. I would also like to thank Eric Kibelski, Mary Panico, and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves,

even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.