Good Inside with Dr. Becky - When You Feel Judged By The Nanny

Episode Date: August 13, 2024

The relationship parents have with their child's caregiver is unlike any other working relationship in the world. It is one of the most important relationships and yet doesn't follow any of the same rules you'd find in other employer/employee relationships. And it often brings up a lot of feelings. Today, Dr. Becky talks to a mom who has a complicated relationship with her kid's well-intentioned caregiver.Get the Good Inside App by Dr. Becky: https://bit.ly/4doK9nFJoin Good Inside Membership: https://bit.ly/3WnVjDuGood Inside's Back to School Toolkit: https://bit.ly/46yGEswFollow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinsideSign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletterOrder Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books.For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcastTo listen to Dr. Becky's TED Talk on repair visit https://www.ted.com/talks/becky_kennedy_the_single_most_important_parenting_strategyToday’s episode is brought to you by Skylight: Let's talk about family schedules. You know those days when you're like, "Wait, who has soccer? What's for dinner? Did I forget a dentist appointment?" Yeah, Dr. Becky too. All. The. Time. Skylight Calendar has been a lifesaver in her house. It's a smart, touch-screen calendar that auto-syncs all of her existing digital calendars. That way, they can see their schedules, chores, meals and to-dos, all in one place. No more confusion and honestly no more unnecessary arguments with her husband about not knowing what our plans are! The best part? It's kid-approved. Nothing gets a kid more excited about chores than an emoji celebration when they're completed. If you're drowning in sticky notes and forgotten appointments, check out skylightcal.com/goodinside and use code GOODINSIDE for $50 off a 15" calendar. Today’s episode is brought to you by Mommy's Bliss: It seems like during the school year, kids are always coming home with something! And finding an over-the-counter medicine that Dr. Becky trusts can be a real challenge. That's why she loves Mommy's Bliss. Mommy's Bliss has been the highly trusted baby brand for 25 years, and if you’re a parent, you probably know about their Gripe Water or Vitamin D drops. Now, they’ve launched a new Pain & Fever medicine that is not only safe and effective for infants and children, but it's also the first-ever Clean Label Project Certified acetaminophen. Here’s what that means for parents: no high fructose corn syrup, no dyes, no artificial sweeteners, and it's free from the top 9 allergens. But don’t worry— they didn’t leave out the part kids actually care about. It has a delicious natural berry flavor with organic elderberry, which means kids don’t put up a fight when it’s time to take it. For minor aches and pains caused by colds, flu, sore throats, and toothaches, there's Mommy's Bliss Pain & Fever. Now that's medicine for peace of mind.

Are you like me in that you blame yourself whenever your kid is going through a hard stage, but then it gets better you double blame yourself for, quote, waiting so long to get help? Well, I have news for you. I think the reason you might not have taken that next step of getting help is because actually you know that you're so busy and you might not utilize whatever the thing is that you would invest in. This is why I want to make sure you know about the Good Inside app. It is brand new and it is the first tool for busy parents that gives them the personalized age-based advice they can actually use. Here's how it works.

You tell us what's going on in your home and you tell us your kids age and then you get a personalized plan that you can accomplish in only five minutes a day and yes that is all you need to have real impact right away. You can do it when you're brewing coffee, waiting in the pickup line, scrolling in bed at night or my personal favorite when I'm sitting on the toilet. And what's amazing is because it's personalized to age you know the advice is developmentally appropriate. Plus there's a chat bot so whenever you have a question you can ask it and get an answer to implement right away which means no more spiraling on unanswered questions. I know now is the time for you to get started because finally there's a

parenting tool that actually makes sense for your life. I cannot wait for you to get in there and get your first parenting win today. Check out show notes and download the Good Inside app today. Raising children is hard and it really does take a village and when the people in your village have different ideas about how to parent your kid, well, I know it can bring up a lot of feelings. You're bad at this. You're messing up your kids. You don't know what you're doing. You'll never be as good of a parent as I am. All right, well, today I'm talking to a mom about a conflict that she's been having with her child's caregiver, who in many ways

she adores and really doesn't want to lose, but in other ways she just can't figure out a way to maintain the relationship in a way that feels good to her. We had a situation with our caregiver, so I'll kind of go into that a little bit more, but just so you know, it kind of peaked and then has kind of stayed stagnant because it hasn't been addressed because that's been where my hesitation has been, is making sure that I do this thoughtfully and I do it in a way where my needs are being met at the same time. In working with a new nanny, it's been evident that our parenting styles differ. The realization that I'm essentially co-parenting with this individual and in the times that I have provided feedback,

which I thought has been in a respectful manner, has inevitably caused some escalations and some tension. And I feel myself retreating, again, because I am terrified that I'm going to say something in my head that doesn't seem like it should be perceived in a harmful way. And then there's this backlash that's happened. She's taken some of my vulnerabilities. I mean, this person's in my home. And so she's seen, look, I am by no means, I mean, who is? A perfect parent, a perfect mother. I have a very demanding job. It weighs on me incredibly heavily every single day that I

have to work so much and not get to spend the time with my kids. I am actually going through my own mental health journey right now, you know, dealing with some trauma therapy, like a lot of stuff. Like, I'm working on me too. So I'm not by any means in the best place either. But for her to kind of pick at that when she feels like I'm questioning maybe the way that she, not questioning, but like that I have asked her to address things differently with my children, it no longer feels like a safe environment. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this.

Can we talk about family schedules for a second? You know, those days when you're like, wait, who is soccer? Wait, what's for dinner? Oh, no. Which parent is taking which kid to a dentist appointment? Okay, me too. All the time. So many moments of panic.

So I stumbled upon Skylight Calendar. And honestly, it's been a lifesaver in our house. It's a smart touchscreen calendar that auto syncs all of our existing digital calendars. And so we can see our schedules, chores, meals, to-dos all in one centralized location. Which means no more confusion and honestly no more unnecessary arguments with my partner about not knowing what our plans are. And the best part? It's kid approved. Trust me, evidently nothing gets a kid more excited

about completing chores than an emoji celebration. If you're drowning in sticky notes and forgotten appointments, and if you have lots of those panic, oh my goodness, who's on top of this moments? I just have a feeling you're going to love Skylight Calendar. So just go to skylightcal.com slash good inside and use code good inside for $50 off a 15 inch calendar. That's S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T-C-A-L dot com slash good inside. So let me just try to kind of mirror back what you're saying and kind of bring some of this together. So you have a nanny. It sounds like there's so many things you love about her.

It sounds like you're close, like the families are even kind of pretty intertwined. You even say the way we parent is different, which to me also says something about how involved she is, right? They were saying, my nanny is like parenting my kid, right? There's a lot of kind of meaningful moments. Okay, so there's that. Some things have gone on that have been left unresolved and it seems like they don't feel good to you.

My guess is they probably don't feel good to her either. Maybe that's one of the reasons things kind of keep coming up or snippy comments, right? At once I hear from you, this relationship with my nanny, the relationship my kids have with my nanny is so important. It feels like it's really another source of stability for my kids. And it feels so precarious. Like, I'm nervous about it.

It feels like I could say the wrong thing and it could blow up. So to have these things at once, this relationship feels so important, so critical, and so precarious and kind of unsafe, is really disconcerting for us to hold on top of all the other things you hold as a parent. Is that a decent summary? Very much so. It's how to co-parent with a caregiver. And then also, if I could add to that, in a way that I can still meet my own needs with

and hold my own boundaries. In this situation, it feels a little bit different because it doesn't matter the amount of work that I have put in to my own self-talk, the own grace that I have for myself and my shortcomings that I feel as a parent that I have. When someone steps into my home and points those shortcomings out to me, it feels very triggering in a way that like I beat myself up again, like I'm not, I'm failing. Yeah.

So one of the things you're saying is my relationship with my nanny is such that it feels like my nanny is critical of me. And then that brings up my insecurities. It kind of makes me turn into a version of myself. I don't like as much. And how do I navigate that given also this nanny does a fairly good job with my kids? Yes, I don't want to hide out in my room anymore. I mean, that is essentially what's happening right now is I'm staying in my room in the morning, not being able to send my kids off to school

with her by my side because I'm so afraid that there's going to be an interaction or I'm going to interject or she's going to feel like I'm overstepping and not allowing her to do her job. Let's make this real. So it's the morning, you're like, I'm not hiding in my room because it doesn't work for me. It sounds like for you, I don't want to have a relationship with my kids and our caregiver when my caregiver's there, I'm hiding in the room. Just give me a short example, really short. What's something that she might say or do or how she might look at you that might start this spiral

into, oh, she's judging me and I'm a bad parent, now I feel like awful and I just want to hide in my room? I was upstairs one morning when I heard our caregiver, oh, she's judging me and I'm a bad parent. Now I feel like awful and I just want to hide in my room. I was upstairs one morning when I heard our caregiver, Lily, say, basically interrogate my daughter whether or not she brushed her teeth. And it was this very back and forth thing and from that point forward, the rest of the morning kind of derailed. That evening when I spoke to my daughter, I could tell that she was confused and hurt and didn't really understand what was happening. and hurt and didn't really understand what was happening. And I frankly didn't like what I heard, but I heard it, didn't see it.

So the next morning when I was downstairs and it was time to brush teeth, caregiver Lily said, time to brush teeth, I'm going to go and help you. And I stepped in and I said, you know what, I would really like if Erin could show us that she can brush her teeth on her own. The text message that I received shortly thereafter was telling me first off, Erin was late to school. Second, you just completely undermined me and the teeth brushing situation. I was going to use it as a way to build trust and make it fun and connect. I have to tell you it's extremely frustrating to have you make an appearance once in the balloon moon and to think that

you know exactly what's going on and attempt to take over. I've been giving it some thought for a while now and I think it's best if I arrive to pick up the girls at 850 from here on out except for the days where you're legitimately working. That's in quotes, legitimately. Okay, so there's so many things you can unpack here. What does it feel like she just said to you? The word that comes to mind, like unworthy. I feel like something just dropped down in you and like you're touching into something that's so important.

And just between us right now, I mean, I'm so grateful you're allowing yourself to go there. And I hope you're giving yourself credit too. This is true for all of us. Let me be clear. When I have an exchange with my husband where we end up escalating things, like to some degree it's because whatever he said,

it doesn't matter. It feels like he said something different. We always respond to what it feels like someone saying to us. And so to some degree, these texts, and they're biting. I'm not trying to say that they're totally biting. I'm not arguing with you. To some degree, it feels like she's writing, like...

You're an unworthy person, you're an unworthy mom. Which one? Maybe both? Yeah. If I imagine a text message interchange, right? It's like the tooth brushing thing and I'm going to arrive late and you undermine me and maybe we say back, that's not what happened and don't talk to me that way. In a way, what I picture as the higher level of communication is you're both texting back and forth to each other.

You're unworthy. You're unworthy. You're unworthy. You're unworthy. You're unworthy. You're unworthy. In some ways, you're probably both feeling the same way, and you're both in some ways covered with other words, maybe like attacking the other person in the same way. At least that's the perception. And Dr. Becky, if I can, that was kind of the peak of some of the things. At the end of the day, when I have given her feedback, when I have asked certain things of her, it's also been met with this pushback and her trying to almost take control. For example, my daughter has my oral therapy, right? So she has to do these tongue exercises. And I had asked for some assistance

for her to do it at a certain time and was met with, actually, I think this is what needs to happen. And actually, I think that she shouldn't get TV because it should be a reward kind of thing. Like, that's where, and that's where I'm like, I no longer feel like I can ask these certain things. That it's like, I'm asking you to meet the needs

of our family because that is what your job is, and you are basically taking over and trying to dictate what you would like and what you don't, and how you think things to change. And that's where it's very tricky, because you have this relationship. Look, you're naming something I hear from so many parents that the relationship I have with my kid's caregiver or her nanny is unlike any other working relationship in the world. It seems to fit into no category. It seems to follow zero of the same rules. It is the most important relationship. Sometimes I wonder, do you work for me? Do I work for you? Do you, like, what is happening here?

Right? And it is so emotional. It is so loaded. It is so tricky to manage. And so I don't know one person who wouldn't say that. And the reason I also think that's important is because, and I can get like this too, right? I think we can when we're frustrated going

to like, this is not how relationships work when one person pays another person. I can say that too, like this wouldn't happen in any other workplace. 100% true. And there's so many other aspects of a caregiver-parent relationship that also wouldn't happen in any other work environment. So I really think it's like a unique subset and that's important to realize. Now what I think you're saying, because I want to strip away, she's taking control or she kind of speaks back to me in a disrespectful way or this is not how an employer-employee relationship go. All of those to me actually get in our way of what I think is much more important and

more core to you. And you can tell me if this feels right. I feel like one of the things you're saying is, I don't feel great in my relationship with her. Like, I don't feel like my words are responded to or listened to. I feel like things escalate. And what I also really notice is our communication really breaks down. And I think what happens when we go from the big ideas to this is not how employer-employee relationships go,

to again, actually what is a little more like what I said before, like dropped down. That's always the word. Like, let me just drop down. Like, what am I feeling? What do I need that I'm not getting? We soften a little bit. We actually feel often a little less angry

and actually a little more empowered. Be like, right, what am I needing when I'm not getting? And I think what you're saying is I need to be able to voice things that I disagree with and for us to be able to communicate about that. I need also to know that in general, our communication is going to be respectful. We're not going to throw jabs at each other. We're not gonna put air quotes on things, right? And I also think what you're saying is when I'm sharing something critical or something I want to be different, I actually really want Lily to be able to hold in mind that I think she's doing a good job and that we're actually on the

same team so that kind of this feedback she doesn't take in in a defensive way, but instead she can actually incorporate. And I think if we break those things down, we can actually go through a lot of different strategies to help move things forward. And here's the first one. I mean, this won't be a surprise that I'm saying this. To me, one of the first communications that need to happen with Lily is just saying, we're on the same team.

We both love these girls. And I think we're also both struggling a little bit in our relationship, and we both want it to feel better. How do you think she would take to that? My hope is she would take to that well. And what about you? How do you take to that? What do you think about that? It had actually been probably the only thing

that I had sat with as far as my approach to this was starting out with, like, let's talk about the end goal in mind, and the end goal in mind is we want this relationship to remain intact, and we want to make sure that this is a win-win for everyone involved. And I find it so diffusing to say to someone explicitly, like me and you, we're on the same team. I don't know about you, but like, you know, another relationship, a friendship, a parent, a mother-in-law.

A husband. Your husband, like when you're in conflict and they kind of come at you in a different way, and they're like, whoa, we're having a lot of conflict, but, honey, we're on the same team. We're teammates here. I know for me, I almost take a double take. I'm like, right, I actually had forgotten that. Or at least my body forgot that. And I think that's a really important starting point.

To remind yourself first, there are redeeming qualities. She's clearly in defense attack mode. I'm in my own version of defense attack mode. Nobody's winning, right? And actually we're on the same team. It seems like during the school year, my kids are always coming home with something. And finding an over-the-counter medicine for my kids are always coming home with something. And finding an over-the-counter medicine for my kids that I trust is a real challenge. And this is why I love Mommy's Bliss. Mommy's Bliss has been the highly trusted baby brand for

25 years. And if you're a parent, you probably know about their gripe water or vitamin D drops. Well, now they've launched a new pain and fever medicine that's not only safe and effective for infants and children, it's also the first ever clean label project certified acetaminophen. Here's what that means for parents. No high fructose corn syrup, no dyes, no artificial sweeteners, and it's free from the top nine allergens. But don't worry, they didn't leave out the part that kids actually care about. It has a delicious natural berry flavor with organic elderberry, which means my kids don't put up a fight

when it's time to take it. For minor aches and pains caused by colds, flu, sore throats, and toothaches, there's mommy's bliss, pain, and fever. Now that's medicine for peace of mind. Okay, get ready for the most relieving, not at all stress-inducing message about back to school, I promise.

I know that with back to school, there are just all these first day of school jitters and dramatic drop-offs and of course after-school meltdowns and lunchbox dilemmas. It's a whole thing. The back to school transition just brings a new set of obstacles for us as parents. This is why I just want to make sure you know about Good Inside's brand new back to school toolkit, which is now available in our new Good Inside app. Let me explain the toolkit because it's completely different from what we've done before,

and it's meant for really busy parents. So here's what you get. Five minute transition tips. You get something delivered daily right to your phone that you can use in your home right away to make back to school easier. You get the delivered daily right to your phone that you can use in your home right away to make back to school easier. You get the Good Inside Chatbot. So when you have that question about what do you say right now and drop off, it's like I'm there whispering to you in your ear. You also get a live back to school workshop with me on August 14th at 12 p.m. Eastern. And yes,

it'll be recorded. This is for the parent who just feels good having something on their schedule because they know that's the way to make it happen. You also get a comprehensive library. We've seen it all, and we know how to help. I wanna make a promise to you, and I take that seriously. These tools will effortlessly integrate into your everyday life, because helping your kid thrive should compliment your lifestyle, not complicate it.

And yes, if you have a deeply feeling kid or a neurodiverse kid, this is also for you. We've got you covered. Follow the link in my show notes to learn more and download today. Look, I think you can go in a lot of different directions. So let's even model how to do this. What is, if you had to pick one thing, if one thing could get better in a conversation with her, one topic you were able to discuss without conflict, but actually gain more understanding and maybe even feel closer after, what would that one thing be? Is it reviewing the tooth brushing incident?

Or you're like, I feel like we just need a repair there. It's like we both carry that around. Is it her picking up the, you know? Feeling like I can sit on the couch and answer emails and not feel like she is thinking that I'm on Instagram. Great. So let's go with that. Because I'm going to take that, and I mean this lovingly, and I'm going to tear it apart and give you a different focus.

And I'm doing that from a place of, like, empowerment, okay? So, you're gonna go downstairs, and you're gonna sit on your computer, and I think you should in part do emails, and you should in part scroll on Instagram and eat some bonbons, okay? Here's why. We can't control what someone else may or may not be thinking about us,

may or may not be judging us. And someone said something to me once, I don't know why, it always sticks to me, I find it useful. Well, someone else thinks about you, Becky, is none of your business. I just found that like very compelling. You know, other people's minds

take up too much real estate in our bodies. Is she judging me? Is she thinking about me? Like, think about all the space you'd have to instead be, I don't know, writing another email if you wanted to, or enjoying scrolling on Instagram if that's what you want to be doing. Like, if you weren't as worried about what Lily's thinking or wondering, is that a judgmental look, is, right,

you'd be able to live in a way that's so much more aligned with whatever you want to do. And so I think the goal of going downstairs and in some ways trying to control what she does really takes away from this journey you're on, which I hear is so much beyond, Lily, and like kind of coming back to yourself and feeling more confident.

And so I don't want that goal to undermine that. So what I could imagine saying to her, just to kind of clear the air, is after this we're on the same team, is, you know, I just wanna be honest with you about something. Sometimes I come down and I kinda wanna be around you all and I'm a little bit on my computer doing work

and I just wanna be honest, I worry, I worry that you're judging me. I'm not saying it's your fault. I do worry about that. And something that would feel so good to me and something I'm just want to let you know I'm going to do, is just reminding myself that I can come downstairs, I might be on my computer a little bit, it's kind of the way I need to spend my time. And

I just wanted to let you know that instead of doing some of that stuff in my room, I'm going to be doing that. What you're doing is you're really shifting the focus. You're shifting because when we say to someone, let's say like I'm going to come down and I need you not to judge me. Right? What someone really hears again is I'm unworthy, I'm not good enough. You know, they think I'm a bad person. And then someone has to say back something to you to kind of release themselves

of that guilt and put it on you. Well, you know, you are distracted a lot and you know, it would just be better if you didn't come down. And all of a sudden you're like, oh my goodness, this is awful. Whereas if you own what you're doing, that's our boundary, right? Our boundaries are things we tell people we will do. And a successful boundary requires someone else to do nothing. I think that actually could be one of the most empowering things you'd think about.

Boundaries are what I tell people I will do and require the other person to do nothing. Now, we make requests of people all the time. I think you can make a request as you rebuild your relationship with her. Hey, you know what I'm thinking about? If something doesn't feel good between us, I think it would be best to talk in person. Because I notice for both of us when we go back and forth in text, we can't hear each other's tone, it feels a little snippy,

and, you know, I'm just not gonna engage in conversations over text anymore because I want to preserve our relationship That's still a request. She could text you something. You can't control it. But still I can imagine making that request Can I roleplay with you on what I feel like she's gonna respond with something like that? Let's do it. Okay, I Anticipate the response to be well, you are never available to talk. Great. So I'm going to show you what you're going to say back, and then we'll talk about how. Ugh. You really want to be able to talk with me more often,

and it's hard to find the time. Oh. You really want to find time to talk with me, and it's hard to find the time. Or I'm going to give you another option. It feels like text is like the easiest way to get to me because you're right I'm often pretty busy with work. It really feels like text might be the easiest way to get to me because I'm really busy with work. Tell me what that brings up for you because I think I know what's happening so I'm just gonna say it because I have it in my mind, and you're gonna tell me if I'm right or wrong.

I'm wrong a lot, so you could be like, Becky, you're so wrong. It feels like when you say that back, you're not kind of defending why you're working or you're not defending I'm a good parent, or it feels like you have to, like, defend that in some way. Feels like it's an accusation. Yes, because if I'm gonna be fair, I mean, it's been pointed out to me point blank that

my kids need to spend more time with me. And I think this is really tricky because often the things that people say is these like kind of biting comments. That's all something in us that we worry about like, am I not spending enough time with my kids? Oh, for sure. Right? Right.

And that's so- Or that I'm already aware of. That I'm aware of that. And so you're seeing something that I already feel vulnerable about. And when you see it, it makes me want to vacate that feeling from my body. So the quickest way to do that is to try to make someone else feel our feeling. We do that all the time. Oh, you make me feel vulnerable, I'll make you feel vulnerable. You make me feel bad about myself, quote, make me,

I'm gonna just give it right back to you. And there's actually so many reasons though why that's so ineffective, because number one, what you're saying right now is actually so critical. You have your own reflections around that. Maybe you do want to be more present at times, right? And yet that gets so lost when instead the story is, my caregiver is so rude to me.

I'm not saying she's not rude, but when that becomes the story, you actually lose the plot, which is, wait, there's times I'm busy with work and I need to like deal with my feelings about that and that's something I have to do. And there often are five extra minutes in a day that I know it is hard for me to put down my phone

and stop scrolling. And I actually really do want to get better at that. And I promise getting into an argument with Lily about it is actually going to really get in your way of actually showing up more often the way you want to show up. Because again, with the story that takes over is, ugh, Lily's the worst. Yeah. And I mean, I'm really actually trying to focus on not just the surface level back and forth, but the really underlying reason of this person is triggered when I

have tried to provide feedback. And again, in a kind, respectful way, the very first thing I did when she was hired was I sent her several of your podcasts and I said, I want you to listen, because this is really the way that I, like to approach, and my husband and I are in agreement, we'd like to approach our parenting, trying to share with her kind of as we're welcoming her into our home. I don't think she ever listened, but that's okay. I want to look, I think maybe this is the bigger theme here is it feels really hard to communicate

in a way that's effective and productive with Lily. When I think about important relationships like this one, where you're saying the way she communicates with me feels so disrespectful and so hurtful, she's pointing out my vulnerabilities, I'm not disagreeing, right? The reason I think it's important to say, okay, pause, can I diffuse this situation?

It's a way of diffusing. Oh, it sounds like you wanna talk to me. I don't think text is great. You're right, we should carve out another time. The other side of that is, is this a relationship I want to stay in, where I want to put in the work to diffuse conversations? And I think that's really important

because I guess I keep hearing, is this someone who I want in our life? Is this a caregiver that works for our family? Is this relationship too precarious? Does that outweigh some of the benefit my kids get? Do I think that this is like the best caregiving situation for us? And I know for me when I'm trying to figure out those big questions,

one of the things I take upon myself is, okay, what would happen if I lead with generosity? What would happen if I even say, hey, you know when I told you to listen to those podcasts, I wonder if on some level, even though I didn't mean it, if it felt like a criticism right from the start. I just wonder because if it did, I can understand that's not what I intended and I wonder if that's one of the reasons. I don't know. Maybe you didn't even listen to them. I would understand that. Just figured we could talk that out. So I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to put in the diffusing. I'm going to put in the same team mentality, but this is important until I get to a point where I might say, either, wow, that's really helping.

I think we really are feeling like we're on the same team. This is feeling a lot better. Or if that doesn't happen, I'm going to say, I am putting a lot of work to feeling like we're on the same team, to communicating in a way that is less likely to provoke defensiveness, to defusing these conflictual moments. And still, this really isn't working out. And so this is no longer a relationship that I think works for me to be in. Can I share with you something that came up as you were saying that? Yeah.

I, she is such a good caregiver to my children in so many ways. I mean, she loves those girls. Like they are her own owns, right? Like that situation is so good. She gets along with my husband great. It feels, and I hate even saying this because it's just like this internal narrative a little bit of like, am I the problem? So when you ask that, like, is this a really like a relationship I long term want to stay in? I'm like, well, if everything else is going well at the 90% of the time and the 10% of the time that I'm in the picture is when things arise, maybe it's me. Look, I hear you. And this is again, the trick, it's the trickiest relationship. It's not

so clear cut. You're not saying, yeah, I don't love being in this relationship. and I really don't like the way she generally is with my kids, and everything's awful. Then I guess you'd be like, yeah, clearly, I don't even need to talk this out. This is not working. And one of the things I think, because you're such a reflective person, and you're so aware of things that come up for you, so fast for you, where I think you're aware of this double narrative of like, this relationship isn't great for me. And so many of my own vulnerabilities get triggered here. And I think we know with any of us when we get triggered,

what makes us vulnerable to a trigger pre-existed that relationship, right? Now, I just would ask you though to shift from the model of, is it my fault? Kind of, am I the common denominator, right? That's like the most negative, least generous interpretation of it. To, if I had the assumption not that it was my fault,

but that, wow, so many things get triggered for me here. That unworthiness. It's like, whenever I see her, she just has a sign on her head that says, you are an unworthy person. What is a small experiment I could do that might shift that slightly? There's so many different things.

Maybe we're like, I'm gonna be around my caregiver for four minutes. It's a four minute experiment. And I'm going to first look in a mirror and say to myself I know I'm a good parent. I'm a good parent who works a lot. I'm a good parent with a caregiver who's probably about to say something that is going to trigger my unworthy feelings. That is true and I'm going to play a little song on my head and it's I am worthy. I am worthy. I am worthy. Or I'm going to play a little song on my head, and it's, I am worthy, I am worthy, I am worthy. Or, I'm a good parent doing my best.

Or, I'm going to play a little trick on myself. Going back to the idea of what other people think about us as none of our business, I also think there's an extension of that, which given we actually really never know what someone's thinking about us, and we infer it from things they say, but we filter that through our own insecurities.

We just don't know. I ever think if we're gonna make up the thoughts of other people, we might as well make those thoughts work for us. So what if the next time I went out around Lily and my kids, I went out and I just said, Lily, like, cannot stop telling people

what an amazing mom I am. Lily is just like bragging about me everywhere. She's like, you have no idea the family I work with. This is a super mom. She works. She is home. She's balancing being on her computer and doing dinner. And I do give her a hard time.

I do. I do. I don't know. You all know I can be like that, but you have no idea this mom. She is by far the most amazing. No, do I think she's doing that? The truth is I have no idea. And you have no idea this mom. She is by far the most amazing. Now, do I think she's doing that? The truth is I have no idea and you have no idea, but I can tell you that idea is going to work for you way more than what I think your narrative is, which is she thinks you're the worst parent in the

world, which taps into your insecurity and wondering like, am I messing up my kids? Am I a bad parent? So maybe I have, it's not even a formative experiment. Maybe it's a 90 second experiment. Maybe it's a 15-second experiment where you tell yourself the story and you're like, I'm gonna go out and like, I don't know what she's gonna say to me. She always has a gap between what she says and what she thinks, but I just know she's just emanating like I'm the best mom in the whole world and like she's kind of obsessed with me. Like you know and then you go out for 15 seconds,

you leave your computer in your room and you go and you just go to your girls, I just wanted to kiss you. I have to get back to my meeting, but I just wanted to kiss you. And you look at Lily and you say, oh, sorry, this is a little disruption. I just had to let my girls know how much I love them.

And I know they're in great hands with you. And then you walk back and you just say to yourself, there I go, being the best mom in the whole world. One more piece of evidence she's going to use to tell everyone else. What do you think about that? Yeah, I definitely am going to give it a try. Because here's the thing, and I'm just coming to this now.

Your interactions with Lily do not sound pleasant. And I think she probably has some hurt and insecurities that she is, without a doubt, acting out on you. And she's not here now. You are. I think for this to change, even more than your interactions with her need to change, the story you tell yourself needs to change.

Completely agree. If I can ask, I think something that's still very much like present is this whole idea of, you know, that everything you said feels so good just on the day-to-day normal interactions, but in the moments where I need to ask something of her. So here's how I would do it. I would number one start with, literally, right, because you have to think, when we're in a state with someone where there's kind of chronic conflict, we are all primed to hear whatever they're going to say as one more piece of evidence

that they think we suck, that they think we're awful, that they think we're unworthy. I think you're both primed in this way. Is there a quick way to avoid that? There isn't. I don't think humans have figured out how do I make sure someone who's primed for a trigger doesn't get triggered. I don't know. If someone knows that, please call me. But we can definitely do some things to reduce the likelihood. And reducing the likelihood is the best it gets when it comes to human interaction. So what can you do? Hey, I want to share something on my mind.

And let me just start by saying, we're on the same team. I think you do a fantastic job with our girls. They feel so loved by you. I feel so lucky that you're the one taking care of them, which I think is true. The nuance you're leaving out is your relationship. And I've realized I want to be more direct with you about some small things here and there that really matter to me so they don't build up. So I just want to share one of those small things with you. Then maybe it's, I don't know, what might

it be? Let's do the tongue exercise situation. Okay. Where the timing of when you want to do it? Yeah, basically. Yeah, that I need her to make sure that she gets it done in the morning and she pushes back with saying that she wants it done at a different time. Great. So the tongue exercise, it feels really important for me to know it's done early in the morning. And one of the reasons is I know how important it is to get done. And I know you know that too. I think I feel anxious as the day goes on that it's just not going to

get done. And it feels so good to me knowing it's done before school because it's just one less thing that I think about. I know that's not maybe exactly what you want. It is the thing that would just help me feel so much better. And so I want to ask that that does get done in the morning. And I want to be honest about the reason. And so, like, what I'm doing there is I am making it so clear to someone that my request really is my request. It's not a criticism. And it is. It sounds like it is your request. For all I know, she could do in the afternoon and it doesn't really matter. You're asking because you want it done and that is perfectly all right.

You should embody that. But if we don't own that, what can happen, especially when relationships feel difficult, is the other person is vulnerable to hearing your request as a sign that they're doing something wrong. And then they don't respond to your request. They just have to defend that they do, in fact, think they're doing something right and they're being a responsible person, which is why communications lines get crossed. And so you heard over and over, only this is for me, this would just make me feel better. I know you have a different way

and I wanna be very clear that this would just help me worry less. So I'm going to ask for it to be done before 9 a.m. Super, super direct and starting with that piece of we're on the same team, I think you're doing a great job, and I want to tell you something that's on my mind. The last thing I'm going to say, because I know there's so many different things we're covering, but I think this is a good way to encapsulate it.

When we're in conflict with someone, a caregiver, a partner, almost anything we say has the likelihood of being interpreted through the other person's trigger and vulnerability. In a quick way around that, besides saying upfront, we're on the same team, naming your reason, owning your reason before you say the thing, completely shifts a conversation. So it's a difference between saying, hey, can you do the tongue exercise in the morning? That's not naming your intention. Versus, hey, I want to share something with you that I'm feeling a little anxious about. I would like to do it in the morning.

Same thing. Let's say you're with a partner and you're always the one who worries about being late and you get into fights all the time and you're like, are you ready to go? That's just naming the thing. Versus, hey, I want to let you know I'm feeling a little nervous we're going to be late. And so I really want to know when you're going to be ready so I can just feel a little calmer. Like, it's actually clear now to the other person that this is your need versus a criticism of them.

And then it's much easier to accommodate because their trigger isn't as likely to be set off. Does that make sense? It does. Would you mind doing one step further? Yes. Show me an example of if there is pushback after you modeled that. Sure. Then I think, look, we have a very human moment of saying, okay, and it kind of goes back

to is this a relationship I want to be in, right? Where we can't make people do things, you know? So I think to some degree, like, is this a battle I want to fight? And if it's not, I might back down and say, OK, it seems like this is really hard to figure out. I'm asking you to do it in the morning. You have reasons why not. I'm not going to make you do it.

You're in charge of the girls. You're responsible. And I guess we're just disagreeing, and you're the one there, so you're going to do it in the afternoon. And I would probably store as data in my head, huh, like, this doesn't feel great to me. It feels like my requests aren't honored. Okay, I need to like note that and see if that keeps adding up and over time does that become the thing that makes me say this relationship isn't working even though you happen to be great

with the girls. Now also in between you could say, hey, okay, look, I just want to slow this down. You really want to do it in the afternoon. I'm asking you to do it in the morning. You might have a really good reason to do in the afternoon that I don't understand. So actually, can you explain that to me? I'm not gonna argue against it, I promise. I'm not gonna argue against it. I'm just actually gonna listen to understand. So, you know, there must be a good reason you have.

That's also a great phrase to always deescalate. You must have a reason for wanting to brush your teeth in the way that way. You must have a reason. Can you just share a little bit of that with me? Because I want a better understand. Conflict generally comes from a lack of understanding. And we try to, we often go right to a reason, can you just share a little bit that with me? Because I want a better understand. Conflict generally comes from a lack of understanding. And we try to, we often go right to a solution, which often just escalates conflict, because we get more

hardened versus actually prioritizing, you want to explain yourself so she understands you. And also, we probably owe the other person, if we want to be in a relationship with them, kind of the same courtesy. Would you take that same approach when we sit down to kind of talk about what has transpired in the past and what's not necessarily? Yeah, if you're going to have that conversation, I'd start with the same team, and then I'd actually make it super limited. And I think you have to be really, really, really focused on this too.

You know what I think could be good? I wonder if there's one thing where we really felt misunderstood by the other person, where we really want to say one specific moment that we want to explain to the other person. Now I actually think you might have better luck given things are so precarious, just saying we're on the same team. Look, I want to say I feel like there's probably been many situations for both of us where we feel misunderstood, where we feel criticized. I think I have felt criticized and I'm sure you have felt criticized by me.

And I don't know if it's going to serve us to get into the specifics, but I also think we can just probably both agree that we want things to feel better between us. You know, we both have very obviously important roles in these kids' lives. We want to talk to each other respectfully. And I just want to let you know I feel that way. I think that probably it might be, it might get a little precarious to get into the specifics. Okay. No, that's great. None of this is easy. I think that probably it might be, it might get a little precarious to get into the specifics. Okay, no, that's great.

None of this is easy. None of this is clean. It's messy. But I want to bring some of those things together. I think always leading with just from finding that person that we're on the same team. Naming your intention when there's conflict is really, really helpful.

I want to talk to you about something because I'm anxious about it, right? Then the person knows to file it away and say, oh, this person really, really helpful. I wanna talk to you about something because I'm anxious about it, right? Then the person knows to file it away and they're, oh, this person really cares about that. That's not that they think I'm a bad person. And then I think, yeah, the story we tell ourselves always exacerbates conflict

because we go into a situation hypervigilant about certain signs, which makes us more likely to read certain signs in that way, which convinces us, see, they really are judging me, or things like that. In a really powerful way around that, say, what's the opposite story? Again, if I'm going to make up a story of how someone's thinking about me, might as well make it work for me. And you can be pretty hyperbolic, given it's just an experiment.

Oh, she thinks she's basically making me an award, best mom ever. She has a trophy waiting in her house. She just feels embarrassed to give it to me. Ugh, you know? And no, I guess because she feels that way, there's a gap between how she feels and what she says. And really, if you allow yourself, and there's a lightness to it, it also will feel lighter when you go out.

Like you'll probably be laughing to yourself, and she'll literally be like, why are you laughing? You're like, it's just this ridiculous exercise Dr. Becky had me do, right? But that will probably change the way you show up, right? You'll probably be a little more lost in like your own positive feelings,

instead of so focused on what is she thinking about me and what is she about to say, which will also inherently change the situation. And I think a series of those kind of short experiments, and I would make them 90 seconds because you want to make them short enough that you know they're going to be successful. That's it, 90 seconds, then 100 seconds,

then maybe you go crazy and do three minutes. I think that would be really, really powerful. ["The Last Supper"] Thank you for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com slash podcast, or you could write me at podcast at goodinside.com. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world. And you deserve resources and support so you feel empowered and confident

for this very important job you hold. I'm so excited to share Good Inside membership. It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's game changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the fewvalued parents. It's game-changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the few minutes they have. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker

and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Knapp, and Kristen Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Brooke Zant, and the rest of the Good Inside team. and Kristen Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Brooke Zant, and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts

and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.