Habits and Hustle - Episode 1: Jordan Harbinger – Networking tips, the 1% edge, and More

Episode Date: February 5, 2019

Jordan Harbinger joins us for our first episode. He is the host of The Jordan Harbinger Show, which was one of the top-downloaded podcasts on iTunes in 2018. He talks about going from Wall Street attorney to pick up artist and how he became the communications expert and speaker he is today. In this episode you’ll learn Jordan’s best networking tips, what it’s like to train government intelligence agents, the 1% edge, how to know if someone is deceiving you, what it’s like behind the scenes of his podcast and what his guests need to do before they’re booked on the show. 📺 Youtube Link to This Episode Listen to The Jordan Harbinger Show Jordan’s Website ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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San Antonio, Texas. Vitamin water zero sugar just dropped in all new taste with zero holding back on flavor. You can be your all feeling. I'll play and all self-care you. Grab the all new taste today. Vitamin water zero sugar. Nourishcare you. Grab the all new taste today. Vitamin water is zero sugar, nourish every you. Vitamin water is a registered trademark of glass O. Hi everybody, and welcome to the Habits and Hustle podcast.

I'm your host, Jennifer Cohen, and I'm so excited to be creating this alongside the Habit Ness team. It's a podcast where I interview entrepreneurs, thought leaders, and overall extraordinary people who share their insight in what it takes to be successful. What their habits and rituals are, and the one thing they think made a difference in their success.

I want to give people practical and actionable information where they can implement into their own lives. I love our debut episode with Jordan Harbinger. Jordan is obsessed with adding value to others and is a master at social engineering. We walk through what his secret sauce is to having one of the most downloaded podcasts of 2018. The one habit he does daily and how he works with special agents and intelligent officers. And of course, a hilarious story about how he uses a

blow-up doll to break into a warehouse. Without further ado, here is Jordan Harbinger. So I am so excited because I have Jordan Harbinger on this podcast today, who is Pretty much the king of all podcasts all of them well really well he you are we'll see Jordan got basically most down most downloaded podcast of 2018 for Apple and has like a cajillion downloads a month. Like how many downloads do you actually have a month? Four and a half million give or take? Yeah, I mean.

That's for month. Yeah, not that I was paying attention. No one's paying attention, right? No, no, no, at all. So I'm like super excited. Honestly, I'm really happy to have you here. I feel really honored because this is obviously a new thing for me and I want to use you as kind of a mentor anyway

because you've obviously crushed it in this space. It only took 12 years. Yeah, this month is the 12 year anniversary of me doing podcasts. Oh, wow. Of me having a show. Yeah. So how long did you think it's kind of took you

of those 12 years to hone it? Because obviously you have a nice formula working and it's... Yeah, good question. I remember seven years ago, I interviewed an author. Or sorry, no, not seven years ago, five years ago, my seven year anniversary. Wow. I interviewed this author, Robert Green.

He was one of my favorite authors still is. Right. And after the interview, he was like, oh, this is really good. I do a lot of media and this is like one of my favorite interviews. And I was like, what? Really? That's incredible. And I even said that to him. I was like that means so much. Wow. And then I remember after that I got all new equipment and I was like I got to start taking this even more seriously

I really want to get into this and then I thought I'm starting to really get the hang of interviewing people seven years in so now it's five years from then and This year, I'm like all right, I got all these ideas. I'm starting to really hammer down some of these things that I'm doing. I want to take things to the next level. Do more on camera. Really do more with prep. Do a little bit of it format change, all that stuff. So I still go through these phases where I'm like, this is where I'm really starting to get a handle on this. And I even have goals of things that I want to stop doing, things that I want to start doing in interviews and on shows.

So I think anybody who's like, yeah, I'm really good at this, is just kind of has their head in their butt for that reason. You know? I mean, I have to tell, I mean, the reality is, like, obviously you're doing something, you must be a perfectionist, because, or very like hard on yourself, because you must be, because, like, you're prep.

Like, honestly, like, to even get on your, we're friends, right? And obviously, I want to be on your podcast, and I'm hoping to be on that podcast. I mean, we'll see. Yeah. Exactly. Well, like, your producer was like, if we don't get this prep work done by so and so, we're going to have to postpone and reschedule the podcast, which by the way has happened.

Yeah, that's happened. Because I hired my producer so that producer Jason's job in part is to be the jerk that I can't be. Well, you could be actually too, because both of you have actually said that to me. Fine. But maybe you're more uncomfortable with it. I'm less comfortable with. There's a part of Jason that just relishes being like you're not good enough to be on the show.

Oh yeah. And like let me just say it's not just me because I've actually recommended two of my one of my friends to you who is like a superstar like a superstar athlete all-star MLB player, all star this, all so, and like, he crushed that prep, rather the prep is like 100 pages and it's like, goes back to when you were in embryo all the way to where you are today with like, you know, it like basically can rip you apart. You need to have like a weekend to set aside to even do the prep work for your show.

And he did. And he, I thought it looked great. And then you guys were like, yeah. I mean, I just had a lot of pictures in it. At the end of the day, I'll spend 10 hours prepping for a show easily. And for a show like with Robert Green, that I think I spent 20 to 30 hours

on that prep for that interview. And it was a good, by the way, I did for that interview. And it was a good, and by the way, I did hear that interview. It was actually very good. I mean, you are, with all jokes aside, you are like a step above most people. I mean, you really do, like, you take it seriously. I think a lot of people, especially now,

people are like, yeah, I'm just gonna do a podcast and they just throw shit at the wall. But you do legitimately take it seriously. You put a lot of effort, a lot of work into it, and it shows because- Like I wouldn't have like phone ringing on, or beeping like that. Yeah, that would never happen.

Yeah, that would never happen. Go ahead and- No, I'm not gonna check. I'm not gonna make phone calls, but I'm just gonna turn it off. That's a good move. Is that okay? Is that good?

Yeah, see, this is not that hard. Listen, I have a lot to learn from you. This has only been like what, two weeks in or three weeks in. So the fact that you're even like humoring me to be here. It's way forward. They tell you to turn your phone on the side. Exactly. So that's why I have you here.

That's why you're my mentor. You're welcome. How else would I have known that? No. I mean, really? So like, yeah. Good old to go ahead. You can do a shot, shot, shot.

No, it's okay. It's too long hanging free. Are you sure? Yes. So, yeah, I am hard of myself, which is why I'm hard on potential guests. Yeah, and I'm not purposely, there's not like this sort of smug you can't be on the show, you're not good enough.

Like that's kind of a, that's, is that how you felt? Yeah, I did. I don't think a lot of people felt that way. A lot of people do feel that way, but here's the thing, if people aren't going to do the work to even fill out like a document that gives us somewhere to start, it's just not going to, it's a good screen because if someone's going to come and mail it in

while they're in front of the mic, I want to find that out before we get here. And the way that I find that out is I go, here's five relatively simple questions that show you have clear thinking about what you want to present. And if people can't do that or won't do that, or if they're too arrogant to do that,

then it's a good screen. It shows me that I made the right decision and not having them on the show in the first place. Right, that's valid. Not five, there's more like 55 questions. Yeah, it's a few pages long. Close enough. But no, I think that's important.

And I think it's also your interview does show that because you get nuggets and information that maybe otherwise wouldn't be known, right? Yeah, most guests that the goal for the show often with an interview is to have the guests say during or at least after the interview, wow, I've never had to think about this. I've never had to answer this.

I've never thought about these concepts that I teach together. And the reason is, I know that I have to know the guest content about as well as they do. I don't have to be as much of a detailed expert on the subject, but I have to know it about as well as they do. Because, and I think it was Charlie Munger, who's Warren Buffett's sort of partner in crime. He said something along the lines of an unfair phrasing,

you have no business even having an opinion until you can phrase or frame your counterpoints, principles, at least as well as they can. And so essentially, who am I to sit here and try to teach the audience something that I didn't bother researching myself? Because why I'm sitting in front of you? Like that's now the bar is so low to enter the podcast and interview game. You're no longer necessary. You are in absolute commodity if you're not putting in as much work as the guest.

Nobody needs me to sit here and be like, so tell me about yourself. Anyone literally anyone can do that. The only thing that sets shows like ours apart is going to be the amount of work that goes into preparing for that guest so that I can ask them questions that are actually meaningful. Nobody needs me to be like, so I turned on the camera and the microphone and I'm sitting here, so tell me about your new book. That's useless. That's 1980's radio format.

That works for a 15 minute spot. It doesn't work for an hour or long in-depth interview. If you do that, you're just wasting the audience's time. And so a concept that I bring in from my days as an attorney is I have to be an advocate for the audience. Every minute of their time is something that I have to earn because they have a choice now. It's not like Larry King's on, okay, well nothing else is on.

I guess we're going to watch this. So you can get away with being like, why did you do that? Fine. But now, now you have to know something that nobody else does. The way you get that is by spending time doing it. Unless you're a comedian and you're really a cut above funny, if you're Conan O'Brien, you can get in front of somebody. But here's what people don't realize.

I bet you that, and I don't bet. I know that Conan, Dave Letterman, all those guys, they spend hours, hours and hours and hours preparing for those little 10-minute celebrity, little plugs. And I know, I remember reading this about Dave Letterman because I study interviewers. I spend a few hours every single month studying other interviewers and I hire whoever I can.

You know, I've CNN anchors that are like coaching me that don't really do that, and I'm like, I need to learn from you because you're doing this, and they're like, oh crap, okay. So I'll pay that guy like eight grand for two hours of time, and it's the guy that you see on night, you know, night, on CNN, and I'm like, I wanna find out how you do this, because I wanna learn this specific skill set.

Because if you're not doing that, you're not really earning the audience's time. You're just putting yourself in this position of privilege because you're the guy with the camera in front of you. But now any a-hole can buy a camera. Anybody can rent my man over here who's running this for you and be like, oh, I have a podcast now. So effing what?

Who cares? What do you bring to the table? The answer is nothing. If you're not putting work into it. And David Letterman used to watch his show every single night after it ended and watch the whole thing and just kind of like beat himself up. And that show was on every night for years. Oh, absolutely. I think the best in anything is because they practice more than anybody else. And they hone their skills more than anybody else. And people don't really understand or know what goes on behind the scenes. People who are successful,

typically are like the Kobe Bryant, it's a perfect example. The amount of hours he practice more than anybody else is that's why he is who he is. That you can parlay that into any industry and anything. But I think it's true, and cream does rise to the top. That's why your numbers are what your numbers are, and your interviews are that caliber compared to others. You're right. And the reality is, like, anything you can have a lot of people like now podcast, everyone in their dog is doing a podcast, you know?

But only a very small, small, small percentage or quality. And it's really up to you as the podcaster to kind of put the best content on and then hope that people kind of will eventually find and gravitate to it, right? Yeah, and the reason I have guests go through a certain prep funnel is because I'm spending 10 times more time doing the same amount of prep for that same guest. I never just get the prep from the guest and go like,

all right, cool, let's do a show. I read this for five seconds. Like, what you're filling out is 10% of the equation. And then I go and read your three books and then I take notes on those and I plug that into the show outline. So me and my producer will have a meeting about that then we prepare for that that way. I'm trying to do more than one podcast a year.

I mean, I just work a lot. Do not go to sleep ever. Do you basically? I get up really early and I don't waste time watching television and stuff like that. So what time do you wake up? Five to six a.m. depending. Yeah. So what's your routine? Your daily routine? You wake up. I get up around five or six. In the morning, I usually read audio books because I'm like in bed and it's really comfy. And everyone's like, oh, do you get up and work out? Hell no. No, no, I don't do that. Everybody goes in morning routine

where they get up and they go run a half marathon. Good for you. That's not what I do. You could run though and listen to an audio book. You could be multitasking. I don't want to do that. Oh, okay. No, no. I like to be in my bed. That's my multi-tasking. That's trying to get away and read. So I'll read. It's usually an audio book and then I'm taking notes as well. And then I'll read for a while and some kind of a wake and I want to move around.

I might go through my social media where I engage with the show fans and then I get up, make some coffee or whatever and I get straight into work, whatever that might be. You were working already for two hours, it sounds. Kind of, yeah. But I'm like, reading is not that hard, right? It's sort of passive, even on taking notes. So you're still kind of researching, that's like you're still working.

So technically you're working. If you go to bed at what time you said, nine. Okay, so you sleep for about what, seven hours or so? Seven eight hours or so. Seven eight hours, yeah. And the rest is basically working. Have a podcast you do.

Do you tape a multitude of them in a week? And then yeah, it depends like here in L.A. I'll do like five and then I'll go to New York and I'll do like 10 in five days. But then I come back. Yeah, but I have to prep all those before. I'm saying that's what I'm saying. That's a lot of work. It's like you can get to one podcast.

Sure. Yeah, it is. And it's worth it. Because that's a thing. Back when people just had TV shows, like if I was on CNN and I was 60 years old, I would do no prep work. And I know I see those guys doing them out of prep work. Most of them do none.

And it's fine. They're already in this position where people are watching them through habit. They're on this really large platform. They don't feel like they have to earn your attention anymore. But those guys are going to retire in five or six years. Oh, absolutely. If not less. We'll think about it. Because now, because you do a lot of podcast, like the top podcast you'll do, right? Because that's what people do. Like you go on this podcast, I'll go and your people just like kind of like just visit each other's podcasts.

They kind of grow their their viewers other's podcasts that kind of grow their Yeah, their viewership that's kind of what people do right? So you've gone on the top lot of the top podcasts You tell me has anybody ever given you the same type of prep that you given them Maybe once yeah, maybe once and you give those people prep even though you kind of know them already You have all that they have a put they have a you know, they're kind of your friends already you still give them the prep it depends if they've already got really clear cut content that I don't need it Oh, okay, it depends on if I need it it it has to it's a matter of raising the bar if you're not raising the bar Then you're kind of underneath someone else's bar, right? So so what I'm doing is instead of being like oh, I'm gonna produce more content than everyone else, or I'm gonna be more energetic than everyone else,

or be funnier than everyone else, my competitive advantage is outworking people. And the way that I do that is I just say, fine, I'm gonna make the interview quality higher so that when some other schmo comes out with an interview podcast, I don't know, for example. But no, like if some other schmo's like, oh, I'm an interviewer. I call it me a schmo.

No, it's so hypothetical. Yeah, it's so hypothetical. It's just so hypothetical. But if someone comes out with another interview podcast, then I can be like, fine, I don't have to worry about that. Right. I can go, well, great, they're not going to outwork me on this. And so you rest that there's like this little tiny film that's like your talent.

Anything above that is going to be work ethic and then there's going to be a component of that that's like network connections who you know your ability to book big guests, things like that. If you love the Habits and Hustle podcast and are looking to add more podcasts to your weekly routine, I have the podcast for you. I know you're going to love the millionaire university podcast because they dive deep into how to actually run a successful business so you can escalate from just breaking even to making your business and profits thrive. Or how they like to say it, learn how to graduate from millionaire university rich, not broke. And this is because you don't need to go into debt spending four plus years on a degree to succeed when you have all the information at your fingertips.

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Vitamin water zero sugar, nourish every you. Vitamin water is a registered trademark of Glasso. I think all of it's very important to be honest with you. I mean, we use that. The content is number one, right? And be really good at your craft and like honing your skills, for sure. But then it also comes with the fact that you have to be able to connect to people and be able to network really well,

to get the people on that are interesting enough for you to even interview. Which brings me a good segue into how you started. Because I guess why you're like a double threat, kind of a double threat, because you used to coach men, right? For self-confidence and then kind of ricocheted into being like, social networking again.

Well, it was like, and it was like into that pick up crap before that became all creepy AF. Right, right. I don't know what we could say. You could say whatever the hell you want. Yeah, I mean, when I first started, I was an attorney on Wall Street, and I was in law school, and I thought I was gonna get fired,

because I thought, oh my God, they're gonna realize I'm not smart enough to be this Wall Street attorney. So I need to work from home because if I'm in the office, they're gonna be like, this guy's such a schmo, like what an idiot. You love the word schmo. I know, I just realized I overused it, and I tried to cover it with that,

and thanks for highlighting it. No, you're welcome, you called me a schmo, so I figured you deserve it. That's true, I do. Yeah. And so when I decided that I was gonna work from home, I thought I needhmael. It's true. I think I do deserve it. That's true, I do. Yeah. And so when I decided that I was going to work from home, I thought I need to figure out the magic formula.

So there was this partner named Dave. Dave was never in the office, but he was one of the youngest partners. And I thought, if I can figure out what he did to work from home, I can sort of copy that career path. This is called in post or syndrome, by the way. When you feel like you're the only one who doesn't belong in a certain place and you're going to get fired or found out. So Dave took me out for coffee and I was like, hey, do you work from home all the time?

Like, how does that work? You know, trying to nudge him on this? And he's like, no, I actually develop relationships with our clients. That's why I'm never in the office. And he's like, I don't worry about getting my billable hourly bonus because even if I don't hit 2,000 billable hours, I'm bringing in a deal every quarter, every few months. So I get a bonus for that. It would far outweighs the office work that I'm doing.

So I don't, my advantage, basically, he was worth more outside the firm, generating business than he was inside the firm, you know, crafting documents. So I thought, wait a minute, what the hell? I need that. Because my competitive advantage when I was a kid when I was in high school

was like, coast through the geometry exam or whatever, figure it out on the test, no big deal, get a B plus good enough. Then when I got to college, everybody was pretty smart, couldn't do that anymore. But everybody's like, yeah, I'm gonna drink five days a week, wake up at 11.30 a.m. and I was like, hey, if I just do my homework

and show up to class, I'm gonna win this too. So I can- You better put that in, right there. It won't, so I switched my competitive advantage from being naturally maybe a B minus B plus student, which is better than a C student, to being able to outwork everyone. But then you get to Wall Street,

and everyone's always outworking everyone, and really smart. And I was like, crap, I'm gonna get fired. I and everyone's always out working everyone and really smart. And I was like crap, I'm going to get fired. I don't have a clear cut competitive advantage anymore. And what Dave showed me was the network that people used to round yourself with that's your competitive advantage. And so I took that skill set and went to all my law friends at law school over at Michigan and I was like, you guys need to learn this.

This is like this key that's going to get us ahead of the game. And all these law partners were like, well, yeah, if you can bring was like, you guys need to learn this. This is like this key that's gonna get us ahead of the game and all these law partners were like, well yeah, if you can bring in deals, you'll be able to write your own ticket. It's gonna be great for you. That or being a clerk for a federal freaking judge or something like that, which was not in my- That was on your card?

Not in the cards for years truly. So I started working on that. And all my friends were like, hey, this is really interesting. And I started a podcast with a friend of mine based on these skills. And this is in 2006. And people were like, eh, whatever. And then we found out that these same networking skills could be used to meet women because it was all the same stuff. Know everyone, greet people by name, be charismatic, nonverbal communication on lock, all that stuff. So it kind of sounds like, you know,

the, you know, to win friends and influence people. Totally. That's basically like the book. And I started with those Dale Carnegie classes. Yeah, Dale Carnegie. It sounds like you're like a, that's what you were kind of preaching. It was.

And the problem, but here's the problem. I take a Dale Carnegie class and I'd be like, okay, how do I generate these really strong connections and network? And so some guy in a sweater vest at the Y I'd be like, okay, how do I generate these really strong connections and network? And so some guy in a sweater vest at the YMCA is like, remember that there are kids like tennis and I'm like, okay, and he's like, have a firm handshake and look him in the eye and I'm like, great, got it. What's the real nuance thing here?

Because if somebody doesn't like you, it's not because you didn't have a firm handshake and didn't, you didn't look him in the eye. There's some other nuance thing that the guy in the like, our guy'll print whatever at this class is not telling you because he doesn't know it's too nuanced. He doesn't have the time to spend with you and frankly he doesn't have that sauce either. He's teaching a bunch of people who like can't stand

in front of a room without freaking out how to give a public speech, right? So I'm like, okay, there's more to the story here. I got to figure this out. And so I started diving into psychology, practical application, things like that. And I started meeting everybody from really high-end, super, super powerful salesman,

who really had a knack for this, to spies KGB agents that were retired. I was putting the word out that I was teaching this stuff and people would write in and be like, hey, my uncle knows a lot about this and I'd be like, great, what does he do? Oh, he was the top car salesman for the tri-state area

for like five years straight and I'd be like, okay, can I call him? And they'd be like, all right, so I'd call this guy and he'd be like, sure, come on in and I'll show'd be like, all right, so I'd call this guy and he'd be like, sure, come on in, and I'll show you what I'm talking about. And I would shadow this guy for a while. And I'd be like, holy cow, this guy gets it. He'd say something like, yeah, you see this?

You see how he wears this watch on his left hand? That means that he's right handed, but it's a fancy watch. If you notice it, and I get all these new on little tidbits. Right, so you're basically like 12 years ago when you started your first podcast, two things. Number one, you were, you kind of had the baseline

of what like the Dale Carnegie baseline of what you needed to do. But then you kind of used that podcast as a way to get introduced to people of all walks of life who can teach you something about that craft. That was the original purpose of the show. I was like, if I have this show, which I started the show because people kept asking me nonverbal and body language questions over and over and over and I was burning them to CDs these conversations I was having and handing them out at the bar and being like, we're talking about upright, positive, open,

nonverbal communication. People are like, wait, what's that all about? I'm like, oh, God, I just been three hours talking about this on Monday. So I started burning those conversations to CDs and being like, listen to this, come back next week and ask questions. You have those still?

No. But what happened was people would go, hey, I gave it to my roommate, do you have another one? Hey, I gave that to my cousin. Hey, my brother borrowed that and won't give it back. And I was like, I need to put these somewhere where anyone can get them. Because people were like, hey, can you mail this to my aunt

in New Jersey? Because my cousins were, and I'm like, no. So I started selling them for like five bucks and then 20 bucks. And I was like, this is a nice little income stream. But I was spending hours burning the same CD. Over and over again. So my friend goes, Hey, there's this new thing called podcasting.

We can put an MP3 file online and just tell people how to download it. So we did that. That was the beginning of the show. So you were kind of very entrepreneurial. You were selling these for five bucks. Did you make a lot of it? Did you sell a lot of them? Yeah.

Once we were as the price to like 20 bucks, we made a few thousand bucks. But then when you're teaching these classes, like you were also teaching guides just how to be more self confident? Like is that before this or in the actual? That was, that was around, we started the show first and then people were like, Hey, can you, I remember one of our first clients was this mortgage banker from California. I lived in Michigan, remember. So he goes, I want you to train my wholesale's team. And I'm like, I'm not a real coach. And he goes, I want you to train my wholesale's team. And I'm like, I'm not a real coach. And he goes, that's funny.

I hired all these real coaches, they're full of crap. They're like these life coach D bags who wrote like a PDF ebook and they don't know anything. Right. You already know this stuff. And I was like, well, not really. And he's like, no, I make my sales team listen to your show, come in and teach a digested version

of the stuff that's on the show, and I'll give you like five grand. And for a student, I was like blown away. Yeah. So we teach one class and he goes, let me teach you something, you need to triple your price, but I'm not paying you triple, but you need to triple your price.

So I was like, all right, fine, I did that. And then we had, we started talking about that. We had a guy that said, he was a street magician and he goes, I've been using your stuff to make tons, tons of money on the street. These body language and sort of sales tactics that were essentially applied to people. And he goes, can I come and learn this from you in person?

Because we were phone coaching him after a while for like a hundred bucks an hour. And so I made a bunch of money phone coaching and then I said, I don't have a class. I'm a lawyer on Wall Street at this point and living in New York. And he goes, I'll give you 15 grand if I can stay with you for two weeks. And I said, come on over, man, because that was like three months of rent. That's amazing. Do you actually live with you?

He stayed with me for two weeks, but here's the problem. I was really busy because I was a thinking lawyer. Yeah, actually lived with you. He stayed with me for two weeks, but here's the problem. I was really busy because I was a stinking lawyer. Yeah, you're a lawyer. So I called one of my friends and I said, can you teach this guy some of the stuff that we're doing that we talk about in Ann Arbor back in the day? Can you teach this guy staying with me? So I flew them out and then they ran this guy

through the ringer for two weeks. And then I talked about that guy's experience on my show and people went, oh, I didn't know you were running a live residential program. And I went, yeah, I guess we are. So then we had people in there every week and I basically hired my buddy to just train and create a curriculum based on what we had been doing.

And that became my business for 11 years. So only with guys, no girls. No, what I found was to train women, it was a completely different game. And also, frankly, to train guys, it was like, you're gonna sleep on the floor, there's gonna be five other guys in the room, we have one bathroom,

and you're gonna have to pay eight grand. And they were like, great. And then with women, we tried to do it with women. And they were like, I want my own room, I can't share. And my budget is two grand, because I don't wanna spend more money on this because they weren't willing to invest in the same, at the same level.

Guys were like, if this is gonna fix this issue, no $1 amount is too high. Women were like, yeah, I'm not interested in doing that. Granted, it was probably a matter of marketing perception, but it was really easy for us to train guys, because they didn't care about the facilities at all. They just didn't care. So what would you say even now? What were the top takeaways?

Not the generic takeaways, like looking people in the eye and shaking their head. What would you say, like some good nuggets takeaways that other people can like utilize today, even take? These are all very transferable. Sure. Yeah, of course. Characters, you can use any in any in any area of life.

To be clear, by the way, it wasn't that the guys didn't care about what we were teaching. It was that they didn't care if they had to sleep on a couch. No, I know. They cared about the results. And the results were what we were good at. We weren't good at like making sure your room smelled nice. Absolutely. That was not, I'm still not good at that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's okay. So the skills that we were teaching were things like how to remember to have open upright positive, confident, like body language, vocal tonality, eye contact. The way you sit, stand, walk, and talk had to all be aligned. You also had to be able to withstand a little bit of pressure, social pressure, so we would run guys through the ringer on that. Like we would get them on videotape, we would videotape them in interactions with people. We had like hookups at our friend's bar where we'd be able to essentially like install

cameras, reality TV show style. Right. And we'd be like, they'd go, yeah, I went in there and I did this and I did that and we're like, great, let install cameras, reality TV show style. And we'd be like, they go, yeah, I went in there and I did this and I did that and we're like, great, let's go to the videotape and it's like not what happened at all. So they have this very real experience of us breaking down their body language, vocal tonality and eye contact in real time on tape.

Tape doesn't lie. So we would be able to run these classes and have guys look at themselves and go, oh, I am like slouching intense. And oh yeah, when this person did this thing to me, I did shrink up like a little violet and then like, sulk in the corner. Like I walked in and that was all fun and friendly

and it's like, here's you walking in, going in, getting a drink, retreating to the corner and hiding in the bathroom for like 20 minutes. And they're like, oh, so we could do that and show people that we could pretty much highlight all of these flawed communication methods, flawed body language, flawed everything. We could point it out, deconstruct it,

give them new tools, send them out, and do it all over again. So that looks very much though. I mean, if you're going to a bar, you're basically getting these guys to pick up on girls, right? Yeah. But those are the same body language or mechanisms that you can take on like for business or for whatever, right? Sure, it's all very simple. It's all, you can transfer it.

So, okay, so besides body language, besides the basics, give me one really good one that people just wouldn't think about that really kind of like turn someone on or off. Yeah, sure. So a lot of it has nothing to do with the way that you act in the moment. A lot of it has to do with the status that you bring to a given interaction. So what we would say is don't go into like some club or bar on a Friday night and be like, hey, I'm friendly with everyone. I'm going to chat up the staff. It doesn't work. The best thing you can do is go in to the same place all the time on like a Tuesday when it's dead. Say it's a bar near local area. Go on on a Tuesday and then meet the staff, greet them, know who they are. Then when you go there on a busy night, they know you. And then you're getting served right away. And they're

like, don't worry. This first drink is on me. It's all good. And if you can't get in, the dormant's like, oh, you're with Jordan, that's fine, come on in guys. And then everybody else has to wait. And it's like, who is this person? Right? So that builds status. It doesn't have to be something superficial like, I can get into this bar on a Friday. Who cares about that, right?

You care when you're 25, when you're 35, it's a little sad. But you can still build status in certain environments. And that's what, you know what we're training people to do. So instead of, to bring this to sort of a business example, a real world example, one thing I do every single day is around 10 a.m. I go into my phone and I go into the text messaging app and I scroll all the way to the bottom of the app.

Those are where those old interactions are that you personally had lunch with two years ago. You never followed up? Yeah, I re-engage four or five of those people every single day. And over the course of five days, it might do it six days a week, I'm re-engaging like 30 people. So my network is really, really broad. And I also give a lot without the expectation of getting anything in return. So if I know that somebody needs help with something, I will just help them by introducing them to someone else in my network,

which is gigantic, because of these reengagement techniques and because I help all these other people and make myself known in these different niches. So if somebody needs something, my level of status is automatically much higher because I'm able to help so many people at scale. So that's the grown-up,

non-pathetic equivalent of being able to get into this really fancy bar club when other people can't because I can call somebody who's supposed to be high status or celebrity and they're like, hey Jordan, what's going on? I'm glad to help you. And I'll be like, hey, I've got a buddy that is really interested in this. Do you have any idea how you might be able to help? And they're like, and if, for any years, it's a friend of mine and the people are like, what? How did that happen? The answer is giving all the time without the expectation of anything in return,

making that a practice that I do every day, not being a jerk, like this person owes me one, really, really giving all the time, making sure that people are constantly being re-engaged from text, email, things like that, and connecting other people with other people inside my networks so that I'm giving benefit to all those people all the time.

That is a real world technique. Anybody can do it. It takes like four to five minutes per day. And I know anybody who doesn't do that, either who doesn't know about it, which is fair, or is just kind of being lazy. And I get a lot of people who listen to the Jordan Harbanger show and they're like,

oh, I'm really busy. I'm like in classes right now. The truth is people think they can leverage relationships when they need them, but it's too late. You need to dig the well before you're thirsty as Harvey and McKay and all this like networking self-help guys say. You can't make up for lost time with this.

And a lot of people are like, I'm busy. I'm a full time grad student in science. I don't have time to network. Cool. Call me when you're looking for a job and you're like, why doesn't anybody answer me? Why may resume? I've sent it out a hundred times. No one cares about you because you've been invisible, self-absorbed the whole time.

Absolutely. I think that is so true. Everything you just said is perfect. I agree with that 1000%. You're like that. I'm just gonna say that. You're like a super helpful person. I met you one time on the phone, this is a long time ago. I was your friend's close friend. Not today, yeah. But I met you one time on the phone, this is a long time ago, I was your friend's girlfriend. Not today, yeah. But I met you one time on the phone and you were like, oh, I'm gonna hook you up with this. I'm gonna hook you up with that.

And I remember hanging up and going, she's either really, really cool and nice or totally full of shit. Right, at which one is it? It was cool and nice, obviously. Okay, thank you. But you backed up a lot of what you've done. Most people who talk like that are really giving.

It's so rare to find someone like that that I just don't even, I don't even believe it anymore until I see it. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I actually pride myself on that because I like you. I can't stand people who are full of shit

and they have empty, empty promises. If I say something, I'm gonna actually follow through with it because I don't wanna be that person, but I could not agree with you more. I think everything you just said is so important to success in life with anything and everything. And it's like there's a book called Atomic Habits. Have you read that? I have. I had James Clear on my show. Really

good guy. Oh, good book. I want to have that guy on my show too. I thought the book was great. No problem. Can make that happen. Could you make that happen? Do you promise? Because all right, so don't be foolish. You got to make that intro. That's another thing, actually. Good point. You have to follow through on what you say. It's better to not offer than to offer in the not do. Absolutely.

That makes sense. Yeah. That makes perfect sense because that's what I just said it first of all. Yeah. I agree. I think it's a terrible trait in general. It just, it says a lot about the person's character when people just talk empty shit and do nothing with it. That's a good point. I guess the truth is people feel good in the moment. And if you're

the person who's like, oh, but sometimes I just forget, get a to-do-ist app on your phone and write it down. Absolutely. I'm the type of person who always forget. So I've to do-ist on my phone and I go, hold on, I'll be in the middle of a conversation I'll be like, wait, writing down intro, gen to the microphone sales guy, boom, down. And then if I don't remember what the hell that note was, I will literally text you and go, wait, I wrote this down, what did that mean? And you're like, oh, I needed the intro

to the microphone guy, Brandon, I'm like, right. And I do it right then. That's another thing. Do it immediately. Like in the moment, in the middle of the conversation, or the same day or the very next day, because first of all, everybody wants instant gratification. Right.

Two, there's something really crappy about being like, hey, can I get that intro? And you're like, yeah. And then I get another note that's like, hey, I'm traveling. Can I do it next month when I'm back from Bali? It's an email introduction. Do it now.

Why am I waiting for you? I could have asked somebody else. Absolutely. I could not agree with you more. It's like in introduction. Do it now. Why am I waiting for you? I could have asked somebody else. Absolutely. I could not agree with you more. Like in today's time, does it matter if you're in Bali or in like Guadalajara? Yeah, of course. It doesn't matter.

You can write an email anywhere around the world. I hate when people use that as an excuse. Yeah. And the problem is because most people don't want to overextend themselves. They want to be takers and they're not givers. And with to your point, it's better to to give because without the expectation right and like to feed that well like you said because yeah You can help 99 people or if you have 100 people in 99 of them never help you right

It doesn't really matter if it doesn't cost you anything like if you just made a bunch of email intros your Reputations really good you've helped a bunch of other people that's something you can your reputations really good, you've helped a bunch of other people, that's something you can get later, or you just have a sterling reputation. The one person that does help you is the one you would never, you would never see a cop. I always say that, because I think,

I mean, all these like super powerful people, right? And like all the time, sure you do too, right? And they all are so like, oh, you should be doing this. I should, you should connect with this. If I had a nickel for every time someone said that to me, I would be a multi-billionaire with like a million different things happening with me.

But no, usually it's like the people that you least expect and that you kind of have to be the driver of your own success, right? Like you got to kind of create your own destiny, I think, to some extent. Of course. It's a numbers game though. It's a numbers game.

It's like rolling rice over and over and over there's a lot of examples of me helping some Supposedly random person right and five years later. They're like, hey I'm working for this big media company now, right? We're looking for people who are doing this and I thought of you And I'm like, who is this guy again? And then I search my Gmail and it's like, here's a real life example of this. I got a call from my old neighbor from back in law school and he said, hey, my buddy's moving to LA. Would you mind talking with him

about what it's like in Hollywood? And I was like, sure, I guess, whatever. So this guy calls me, I have a conversation with him. It's like half an hour long, tell him where it's too dangerous to live, tell him where to get good tacos, it's like the end, I have a conversation with him. It's like half an hour long. Tell him where it's too dangerous to live. Tell him where to get good tacos, like the end, right? Not a good deal. I don't want everybody in my taco spot.

So then, years later, I'm getting an email that's like, hey, this network is looking for new shows, and we're wondering if you wanted to join our network. And I thought, sure, how did you find out about me? And it goes, oh, it's Sean. I'm the guy that called you four or five years ago, and I was moving to LA, and you know, you were neighbors with so-and-so,

and I was like, wow, that came back out of absolutely nowhere. Because you're top of mind with a lot of these people you've helped for a million years ago. I didn't think that guy was even gonna move to LA. I thought there's no way it's just one of these pipe dream guys. Right, right, right. There's a thing about moving out here. And another example, this very similar phenomenon.

This guy actually helped me find a dentist because I had a toothache. This is pre-Uber. I couldn't get to the dentist. This is like eight years ago. And he helped me find a dentist. It was his aunt. And then when I asked him what he needed,

he's like, well, a demographic designer and it's like, I don't need any graphic design, but I'll take your portfolio. A friend of mine four days later asked for a design portfolio from people. And as a look, I've never worked at this guy, but whatever, he was a barista at the time. She hired him full time.

He makes like 80 grand a year now doing graphic design for all of her clients. And the reason is because he helped me find this dentist on Facebook. Like, I don't know him. I've never met him in person ever. Right, but you're just overextending yourself with no expectations of what's in return. And that's when...

And he did the same thing. I call this the opportunities are sort of over the horizon. Because if you're trying to go, all right, I want to help this person, but I don't know what they can do for me. And if that affects your decision, whether or not to help them, you're gonna lose, because most of the opportunities are over the horizon. You can't see them, neither of you can. So if someone's like, hey, I make wooden coasters,

and I'm like, I don't need wooden coasters. So I'm not gonna make, I'm not gonna go out of my way to help this person. That's a problem, because if you help the wooden coaster person without the attachment to anything in return, and then five years later, you're like, oh, I really need a set built. And it's like, yeah, I know this guy

who makes wooden coasters and wooden furniture, and they're really, it's really awesome. And you go, wait, I know that guy. Hey, Ben, I'm looking for a custom wood set for my new podcast. Is that something you can do? Yes, and I'll do it at cost because you're the guy that helped me break into this industry. Those types of opportunities

happen all the time. I end up getting really hooked up from people and I'm like, wow, you're so nice. And they're like, no, you're so nice because years ago, you introduced me to my wife or my business partner or you got me an in with this person and you forget about it. Yeah. You have to do this. You can't make the calculation in the moment. What is this person going to do for me? First of all, imagine doing this in real time. Imagine you're at a party and you're talking with someone and they're like, yeah, I make furniture out of recycled plastic bottles.

You're like, crap, I don't need that. Who else is here? You're looking around and they're like, oh, you're kind of a bigger, better deal kind of person. I don't like you. Right. And then that way you're looking for the one in 100, or one in 200 people, because you're like, oh, I'm only looking for people that know

celebrities for my show. So next, you're never gonna have good luck with the people that you meet. But if I'm like, oh, you make recycled bottle furniture, that's interesting. Who in my network would need or want something like that? Or what do you need that I could provide via someone in my network?

That's what makes it scalable. Yeah, I agree. People think, I don't have time to help all these people. Yes, you do. You're not doing work for them. I'm not marketing wooden coasters for them. I'm just making a connection to somebody else in my network.

So the more people you know, the easier it is to find a match. I think there's two things that I agree. And you can't be so myopic in that thinking. I also think for people who are more short-sighted, think of it as another way to connect to a contact of yours. It gives you a reason or an excuse to reach out to someone maybe who haven't spoken to in a while. A lot of times when people ask me for a favor,

people are like, well, why would you waste that favor with that person when you, and I never look at it like that. No, it's a muscle that grows with uses, not a pie that you use. Absolutely, and I think people like, well, people, because people always say, like an example would be like someone want to concert tickets, you know,

someone who works with me. And someone I know represents that person. example, to be like someone want to concert tickets, you know, someone who works with me. And someone I know represents that person. So they're like, and I wanted to ask them, like, well, someone says, well, why would you waste that favor on that person? You should be, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I don't think about that way. Like number one, like, if you think, if you're always conniving and trying to think of,

figure out a way just to help yourself, I think it's very short-sighted. And also, you gotta think a little bit more positively, like how that gives you another reason to kind of reach out and say hello to someone you maybe haven't spoken to, I guess. It's the only time that there's an exception to this is if there's a taker that is not interested in ever helping anyone. But like, if a friend of a friend

you need a concert ticket and I was like, all right, this is kind of a big deal for them. I'm gonna ask my friend Jen if she knows this person because you know everyone. You're like, yeah. So I get the tickets for this random person, no big deal. That person is gonna be super thankful. The only time I would draw a boundary

is if they're like, great. Now, anytime I wanna go to a concert, I'm gonna call Jordan and ask him to call his friend Jen and get me free tickets, because I'm a cheap ass and I don't want to buy anything. That's something else. But if that person is like, you made my daughter's birthday amazing.

I can't believe she got to go see Britney's whatever. We're on it. We're on it. That's amazing. And I go, great. If she's ever looking for something else, I'm gonna call you. This person will,

as by virtue of being a good person that is thankful, we'll see if there's ever looking for something else I'm gonna call you. This person will, by virtue of being a good person that is thankful, we'll see if there's ever anything I can do for you, let me know. Chances are there's never gonna be anything that person can do. But when you connect with other connectors, then it's like, well, all right, this person's a car dealer, maybe I don't need a discount on a car,

but maybe they know somebody who runs some other kind of thing. You just don't know, the opportunities are over the freaking horizon. Exactly. And this is a person, to your point, it wasn't someone who had the ability to get those tickets, right? Like I was helping someone who I clearly knew didn't have the access that I had. Tap on that table.

Sorry to tap that table, man. Tap on the table, man. I didn't know what it like, but to help someone who doesn't have the access, I think it comes back to you 10 fold. Because that's the point. Like, you're right, it wasn't someone who's just like,

is always a taker, 100%. So then, how did you, so what's interesting, and you're telling me this, like off of this podcast, but I wanted to touch upon it, because I think it's super cool, that you took all of those skills

that you taught man or help people to transfer to business, it's the same skills and you can hone to anything. Now that you're doing it with special forces and you're kind of telling me about it, yeah, yeah, I want you to kind of talk about it. So now we're training police special forces intelligence agencies and sometimes civilians on relationship development, threat assessment, nonverbal communication, because essentially what intelligence agents do, it's not always like dropping a bug while you're being, it's not always like dropping a bug

while you're being suspended among above a floor. Most, in fact, it's never that. It's mostly developing relationships with people where they like and trust you so much that they're willing to give you information. And a lot of, especially counterintelligence, there's a lot like that. A lot of the counterintelligence people

that we're training, it's all about rapport, doing what you say you're gonna do, generating no like and trust relationships with people that you then say, hey, look, I can get your family out of North Korea, Russia, Iran, whatever, but you need to build trust. You don't just call someone to go, hey, I heard you're an Iranian nuclear scientist. How would you like a visa to come to the United States?

It's a great way to get yourself killed if you're that nuclear scientist. You have to develop this relationship slowly over time. Those people specialize in that, but a 1% edge from somebody like us could be life savings. With us. Me and my co-trainer. Okay, so you have many people do have working for you.

They don't work for me, they work with me. With you. We have retired KGB, we have retired military intelligence, and some active people in those fields as well. Obviously not KGB. So yeah, well, okay, so let me get this rate. Okay, so you then have like a sub-business, right? Were you, could you say something about like your trading people to watch for like deception

and things like that, right? Sure. So is it only based on the stuff that you were taught and kind of learned 12 years ago? Not at all. Not at all. No, no, it's not only that. There's more.

I mean, for example, if I'm teaching guys how to, if I'm 25 back then, I'm teaching guys how to go on and meet women. No, but you've obviously honed those skills. Oh, sure. And you've honed those skills, and now you're taking those raw skills and then you're transferring it

into a whole different area of business. Yeah, and much more interesting in the wholesome area as well. Well, wholesome area. It seems like a very wholesome. It seems super intense, though. And I, how do they reach out to you? Like, this is like hardcore shit, I would think, right?

Like, the way that they find out about us is Honestly the podcast helps a lot because people who listen to the Jordan Harmanger show often they'll Take a one to five percent edge. There's a lot of deployed military. There's a lot of intelligence agents that are like Oh, this is a good interview. What do you mean by that? So If I'm a counterintelligence specialist or a green beret and I'm stationed in Iraq. I've got to stand wherever I'm not thinking gee. I don't know what I'm a counterintelligence specialist or a green beret and I'm stationed in Iraq, I've got to stand wherever. I'm not thinking, gee, I don't know what I'm doing. You have millions of dollars worth of training

from the military. But you could get maybe a 1% edge by listening to a bunch of podcasts like the Jordan Harbanger show, reading books on persuasion, reading books on influence, reading books on generating trust and rapport. So you go and you do that

because what if the difference between success and failure and your job, which by the way could kill you, is that 1% edge? That's like, I get Tom McCabbitt's talks about that 1% right? Yeah. So that's what you're saying. So you're saying if they're listening to all these podcasts and generating all this media information, if they get one thing they can get better at, kind of things. Yeah, people who are going to go and be a top-tier military operator, intelligence professional,

or work in the civilian version of those worlds, these aren't people that are like, how do I get a C-plus on this exam, so I can graduate? These are people that care about every single advantage they can possibly get. These are true high performers. These are people that would be in the business world an absolute rock star,

but have decided to actually serve the country instead, which is very admirable. And so what we find is these people, they don't stop learning because they graduated from the farm at the CIA. They don't stop learning because they made it through their sheen bet training and Israel and they're done, right?

These are people that are obsessed with human performance, especially their own. And so they're gonna look for something like the Jordan Harbanger show and go, okay, this guy talks to high performers, this person is going to identify habits, skills that I can then use. And so when we talk about the training that we offer on the show, to the extent that we're even allowed to talk about this stuff and offer it, then they go, hey, how do I get that from my unit? And they either go through their channels that they reach out to us directly, and a lot of them have discretionary income that they can use. So in police departments, of course, cops are listening to stuff like what we're doing

all the time. And they'll go, oh, we want to threat assessment class for our officers. How do we do that? We want an interrogation class for our officers. How do we go and get that? And so they'll reach out to me knowing that I know those people and that we offer that in-house as well, and they'll hire our company to go and train them.

Wow, so tell me some cool things that you've done, where you've been. That would be kind of like things that you would never think in a million years that you would ever have access to that you got to do. Yeah, let me think about what could- No, thank you, too. Usually you have to ask permission

before anything like this. Some of the cool classes that we've taught had people from elite military units that are in under certain type of cover and we find out later. Usually we can sort of tell that something doesn't add up. We had these guys that came in, they sold farm equipment

and they had all been stationed in Ukraine for a really long time. So that sort of was weird, and they were all in excellent shape, they were extremely intelligent, not the people who sell farming implements in the equipment, couldn't be extremely intelligent.

But it just, there was a lot of telltale signs that these were special operators, and of course years later I was like, so are you, we stayed friends, I was like, sorry, you guys gonna tell me what you really do? Now, or what? And they're like, yeah, we're all sort of done

with that particular thing. We're all on SEAL Team Six and we were training for these missions and we wanted to come in and get some specialized training in this area. And what area, what was that that you did with those people specifically? A lot of nonverbal communication,

body language, deception, training, or counter deception and rapport building skills. Okay, so how do you know when someone's deceiving you? This is a huge... I know, just giving... Huge sorry. I know, we could do a whole podcast on that.

Yeah, the problem with giving like a one quick tip is that it... One quick tip. The point is that you take tells for deception, you measure them against a baseline, and you can't just be like, if someone touches their face, it means that they're lying. That can mean a whole host of different things. Arms crossed, people go, this is a favorite. Oh, there are arms across.

They're closed off to what you're saying. Well, not necessarily, could be cold. Also, this combined with a head tilt is actually curiosity, it's not closed body language. There's all kinds of things, and so my co-trainer Chase, he's got closed body language. There's all kinds of things. And so my coach, Rayner Chase, he's got this periodic table of the elements. It's called the behavioral table of the elements.

And it's all these different human behaviors. And they're combined together in certain ways that indicate deception. You add them up, you get a score. And it's pretty good. But you can't be like, oh, they scratch their nose. Or oh, they keep playing with their hair. This is deception.

We're under lights, we're on on camera that adds a whole different context plus some people are naturally a little bit more anxious than others their baseline could look like they're lying if you just take that without any context so like right now I've an itch on my head does that mean that what I just said was false no it means that I have an itch on my head. Does that mean that what I just said was false? No, it means that I have an itch on my head because we're sweating under lights. That's all that means. But if I have a lot of other signals put together in my baseline, as you know it,

as you've measured it before, doesn't show those same signals. Now you have a good idea that maybe I'm being deceptive. Right, so if my baseline is wow, Jordan's really relaxed. He looks people in the eye. His hands are usually in his lap. They're usually folded. His lower body's really relaxed. Everything looks people in the eye, his hands are usually in his lap, they're usually folded, his lower body's really relaxed,

everything is normal. And then suddenly when you're asking me questions, I'm shifting around a lot, I'm doing this, I'm scratching my face when I'm talking, I'm not meeting your gaze. Like these deception signals put together as measured against the baseline, that can indicate deception.

But this stuff is more, it's more dangerous to have one little idea. Then it is to have none at all, right? Because then you get people who go, oh, I saw on TV that if your arms are crossed, you're closed off to my ideas. Complete BS, this is sort of pop psychology garbage that people read in some self-help book or heard on a podcast. And they're like, I'm using that now against my kids.

It just does not work. We know that most even lie detectors, literal polygraph tests done by, run, and they're like, I'm using that now against my kid. It just does not work. We know that most even lie detectors, literal polygraph tests done by run by an expert, they're about 51% accurate. Think about that. That's it. That's it. They're about 51% accurate.

So does that mean that all these people would have to have a baseline of all the other people to even actually properly read them? 100% true. Yeah. So how would anybody then, because how is that even possible? That means, no, what it means is, and this is controversial to people that think they're really good at seeing if other people are lying.

Humans who are supposedly experts at detecting deception, without, there's a couple of exceptions to this rule. Usually are no better than chance and are often worse than chance because they think they know what to look for, but they're just taking two or three things out of context and deciding that that makes them an expert at deception or detection. So there are a couple people

that are really good at reading micro-expressions, which are these little barely detectable, barely perceptible expressions of contempt, happiness, fear, whatever. There's some people that are naturally good at those. They still can't tell if someone's lying. They're just naturally really good at seeing micro expressions. That's all that that means. So they might be able to tell if you're afraid and you're hiding it, or if you're happy and you're hiding it, or if you don't like me because you have a contempt expression and you're hiding it. That's pretty much as far as it goes. But people like to go, ooh, I can read micro expressions because I took an online class.

Ooh, that was a contempt expression right there. And then the rest of the, the details they get filled in by their brain, huh, why did she feel content? She must not like me. Why doesn't she like me? I was probably because I was late to this interview. Jen hates me. That is an erroneous conclusion based on just enough information to make me dangerous. So a lot of what we're teaching when we teach deception detection is we're untie we're trying to get people to unlearn all these things they think they know as interrogators, parents, police, whatever that are actually just misleading.

It's amazing. This to be so fascinating. You can I you could do a whole other podcast, ten other podcasts just on this. Would you come back and just talk about that actually? We can, I got people who work with me that are gonna be a million times better. That's a super interesting to me. And I think the issue is also now with social media, anyone could be deceptive because you can just put out

a persona and just people don't get to see those nuances, right? They see these big blocks of what people want you to see, but don't see everything else. So how can you detect with that? Like you did that thing, I told you, I wanted to talk to you about that DEF CON, about that, what's that thing?

Right, so that was a social engineering is essentially the practice of convincing other people, this is a terrible definition, but social engineering is essentially convincing other people that you're someone else in order to, it's like hacking humans, right? So when I do social engineering, I used to do this, this is a past life entirely, but I would get hired

to say, talk my way into an Amazon warehouse, shoot. Past life, don't do it anymore. I get, yeah, don't hire me if you want to keep a secret, only if you want to find out if someone else is. I would get hired to sort of talk my way into say, like an Amazon warehouse and get a whole lot of something. No, I'm an Amazon warehouse. Or an Amazon warehouse.

It doesn't matter, it's not a client anymore. And I would have to get a hold of a certain hard drive. The hard drive is obviously going to be more or less blank, or it's going to be a real one that I have the person take out. I will literally walk into a place, have the person take that out of a machine and give it to me. And then if I get caught by security, I've got a letter from Jeff Bezos Homeboy that says, this is the security guy that says, this is something that we're testing based on our agreement, blah, blah, blah. But we had another guy who worked with my company, literally would go, all right, he'd hired by

the board of a company to go and test their security. And one of the attacks was this, and I don't think I'm giving away something that's too novel or new. The beauty of this is you can tell people exactly what you're gonna do, and it'll still work. So one of the things that our company did back in the day, we were supposed to get private information from this company.

It's just like a accounting and IT kind of software company. And this is years ago. We drove by, we saw the brand of, we drove by the company's HQ. We looked at their dumpsters. We couldn't exactly see that far and we said, look, we're here to fix the dumpster. And the guy said, I can't let you in without an appointment.

No problem. So we went online, we found out who the vendor was for those dumpsters. We made polo shirts and hats online. We had them overnight or two day, whatever print air. We had them sent to us. We called ahead to make an appointment to come see those dumpsters. Security said, sure, just bring your ID. No problem. Printed up some IDs. It said we worked for the waste management company, showed up, gave them our IDs that we had made. We're wearing uniforms that we had printed.

All we want to do is go see the dumpster. The guy doesn't just wave us in. That would be too easy. He goes, sure, no problem. We pull him with our truck and we say, all right, there's a wheel bus that I'm one of these things. This is going to be a while. I'm actually going to get in here because some of the mechanism for the wheel is in here. Can you show me which ones have food waste? I don't want to be covered in gross stuff. And he goes, paper, stuff to be shredded, other waste. I go, great.

Okay, cool. I'm going to inspect all these. So we start looking around with flashlights and the food waste dumpster from the outside. And I, of course, the one that's to be shredded, I go, ah, yeah, here we go. Hold on, I'm going in here. Can you pull the truck up? Great. And we go, hey, look, I don't know if you're supposed to be away from your post for a while.

We're going to need about 30 to 45 minutes. Do you want us to just wave when we come out so you can open the gate? Yeah, that's fine. We load the truck with documents that are in the to be shredded dumpster because we have to move them to fix the wheel, right? We take off after a while and he waves us out the gate. After we get, you know, we have to get a part, we have to fix the wheel, we do the rest.

We go in for the meeting and the boards like, what do you got? Thinking like we found him in the locked door. We're like, here's your payroll for the entire C suite. Do you want us to show you what each of you make? And they were like, nope, we're good here. We need a full security audit. And they're like, who do we need to fire?

And we're like, no, nobody. Everybody did their job perfectly. And it's like, wait, what? How did security let you in? Well, we had IT, we had uniforms. Here's the problem. It's not your security guy. It's the fact that this stuff works on everyone.

And so of course, we outline security protocols that are not the security guys fault. We outline full protocols that are like something that you can't just defeat with a couple of phone calls. And this is stuff I used to do as a kid. I mean, when I was young, I used to talk my way into all kinds of stuff. I never paid for a concert because I used to go and talk my way in backstage with tickets I printed off on a laser printer or an ID that I made. And I would go and hang out with like the staff it used to be called pine knob back into try now it's like DTE music theater and I would just walk in to these concerts.

I saw the Beastie boys everybody. I just printing out tickets that look like I would either print out tickets and go and then once they figured out that it was barcodes we figured out how to make barcodes. How how would they how would they um you know work the barcodes, we figured out how to make barcodes. How would they, how would they, you know, work the barcodes? Like how would they go click, you know, to get in? You either get a real barcode or you figure out what barcode system they use and you find out which, there's either default barcodes, there's maintenance barcodes, there are barcodes that tell the system that there's an error and of course there's a huge line behind you. Right, so you go out of there. You go, hey, I don't know what's going on and they're like, it's fine, it's fine. Yeah. I mean, look, you're sitting here with a freaking ticket, of course there's a huge line behind you. So you go out of there. You go, hey, I don't know what's going on and they're like, it's fine, it's fine.

Yeah. I mean, look, you're sitting here with a freaking ticket, of course, like go ahead. Or if you've got a maintenance ID, you go really early and you're like, hey, look, I'm here for this, you talk your way in. I remember there was one time where my friends thought that I was BSing.

This, I was probably like 21 at the time. It was my first time in LA, and I won't tell the name of the club because it's actually still there. I think I was probably actually 24, 25 now, I think about it. You can say it, who cares now? No, I don't want to,

because I used to go there all the time, and honestly, the owner, I became friends of them through this activity, and he's a really good guy, and I just don't want to mess it up, or mess with him, or make him look like a chump. But there was a huge line, and my friend goes, this bar rat sucks. I want to go to that club over there, but that line is huge. And I go to the front of the line and I go, hey, I work for this magazine.

I need to get in there like, yeah, right, dude, this is LA. Like I haven't heard that BS before. And you just push these psychological triggers that get people to essentially decide that you're more trouble than you're worth, right? And this is how social engineering works, it's how persuasion and influence worth work. And 45 minutes, maybe 45, 50 minutes, because this was like a personal record for me at the time.

Now I just look at it as kind of like a crappy way that I stole tickets to this concert. So I feel a little bad. But we ended up on the stage with the DJ in under an hour with free drinks in our hand from not even being at the being at the ass end of a line. Okay, what was the psychological things that you use on that guy? So you go up to the ticket counter and you're like, hey, I'm here for a media event.

They're like media event. It's like, yeah, well, we don't have that. Fine, that's fine. We came from Germany to write for electroniczene.de, which is a website that we had just essentially made from our phones while we were standing in that line figuring out what to do. It was just like a plug and play of this domain as part. The emails worked though. We set it up literally that fast.

You can set things up like that so fast, so fast from your phone. If you, yeah, you just go to go daddy and you buy a domain. In five minutes and we're working five minutes. I mean, in a few minutes. Okay. Sure. You can set up email, not a problem. Or you call a friend who's at a computer and you have them do it. And then you, if they're in the line to like, look, we don't have that.

I'm like, I just assumed go home. I don't care. I don't want to write about this. What's your name? I just, well, why? Well, I don't want my editor to be like, why didn't you go? I need to be like, I just assumed go home. I don't care. I don't want to write about this. What's your name? I just, well, why? Well, I don't want my editor to be like, why didn't you go? I need to be like, Janice? Janice told me I couldn't get in. And they're like, I'm not getting in trouble for this BS.

Hold on, let me get my manager. Mike, okay, hold on, hold on. Mike, hey, what are you here for? I'm here for a media event. I got to write about this. I know that someone's host playing tonight. I just want to come in, do my piece. I'll be out.

I don't care. What outlet is this? So you keep repeating this process. Oh look, if you don't want me to come in, I don't want to get you in trouble. I just need to be able to say that Michael said, we're sold out, we can't let anybody in, and that I went home, and they were like, no thanks.

I'm not getting fired for this. So he's like, let me walk you in. So I go in and I'm like, great. Is there a place where I can get a drink, use the restroom and take some notes? And they're like, yeah, wherever. And I'm like, well, all right, can just walk me up to the front.

And they're like, okay, fine, whatever. Cause they're busy, right? It's a busy, freaking answer. So they walk us past the door guy. We don't have tickets or wristbands. So I go, wait, hold on a second. How do I get back out when I need to and get back in? And they're like, oh, you're gonna need a wristband.

I don't say, hey, I need a wristband dude. I go, how do I get back in and out? And they're like, oh, you need a wristband. So they give it, then it becomes their idea. They give you the wristband, you go in and out. And I've done this at a billion raves concerts when I used to go to those things. And there are times, there are numerous times where it would be like me and my friends

on stage with that DJ. I remember sitting in front of the DJ booth with deadmouse playing a show in New York City and sitting there and the owner walking up and going, do I know you? And I'm like, no, I don't think so. I had no idea who he was. And he goes, this is my owner's table. And I go go thanks so much for having us and he's like Cool. Yeah, do you guys want anything to do because he didn't want to be like who the hell are you right? Right right because he's like obviously you're sitting at the owner's table my Three levels of security let you in the sound guys let you in I must just not be no I just must not be in the loop and I want to look stupid

I don't know yeah guys don't look like a jerk. So these guys were writing notes at the table. So we ended up hanging out with them. And after a while, I was like, hey, full disclosure, I just totally BS my way in here. I can tell you how to fix that problem, but you're really cool and I love your revenue. And after a while, he was like, it's fine.

I'm kind of liking it. You don't tell him in the moment, obviously. But I remember going back again during like a really slow night and being like, look, I'm kind of liking it. You don't tell them in the moment, obviously. But I remember going back again during like a really slow night and being like, look, I feel bad, I wanna pay for these tickets and he's like, wait, I'd rather hear how you did this. And that was how I got the idea that actually breaching security

as long as you're not stealing something or being an outright jerk, you can actually deliver more value if you tell them how to fix the problem. Because not everybody that walks into some place wants a free concert. Not everybody that steals the payroll from the C suite just wants, just is a punk-ass 28-year-old kid who needs the ego validation, right? Somebody's going to misuse that.

So if I can do that stuff and then turn it into a business, and I did for a while, that's much more rewarding. Attention, Kroger Shoppers. Did you know there's a world of innovative services and patient care right in store? It's where an award-winning pharmacy and nationally recognized care come together. Connect with one of our licensed pharmacists today

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I love it, and that's why we're friends. Because I feel like as you talk, everything resonates so well with me. I mean, first of all, though, I do believe what you're saying, there is a part of it is natural. You're innately like that. I think that you can teach people some of that by giving them those like fundamentals

and like help practice, to practice, practice. But a lot of people don't have the confidence, which is what you teach. Yeah, but I developed that over time. I used to be an introverted kid. That's what I was saying. Because I would feel like you would have to be somewhat Nately good at that like to push the envelope like that or have balls like that, you know, it's like sales though

It's the reason sales is the easiest job to get and the hardest job to keep is because usually they'll hire anyone And they'll just see who's left at the end of the week and isn't crying Mm-hmm And those are the people that's survival of the of the fittest. Right, they're able to survive this. Yeah. You can learn a sales skill set through your life from absolutely nothing. You don't have to be a quote unquote natural.

But the reason that we're able to teach military, special forces, intelligence agencies is because those agencies have already screened for people that have this ability. Right. We're honing it. Right. I'm not making somebody out of whole cloth that can do this.

I'm taking people that are already decent at it. You know, if I'm doing a breach for like a white hat social engineering attack on a company, I'm training the security company, the head of security. This guy's probably X military, it's just gonna be like a massage agent that works at Microsoft now. He's not gonna be like some dude sitting in front of a computer that's like, wow, I guess

we gotta lock the back doors. Like, is there a guy that gets it? They get it. They're just not thinking all day about how to break their own security. They're not red teaming is what it's called. Their own company. They have other things to do. They hire weirdos like me and my friends to go and do that.

And the guys that I worked with were so good at this stuff. One time we had to break into a warehouse, it's always a warehouse or a facility. And they had a law in this area that fire doors had to be unlocked during business hours. I think most jurisdictions have that. But after hours, you can't just lock people in facilities, especially if there's 24 hour security. So there has to be usually there's a motion detector that will unlock a door from the inside

Or there's a button you push that unlocks the door from the inside But if the weather's dripping under the door has enough room you can stick something in there So we spend a lot of time like sticking things under doors hitting buttons and then motion detectors motion detectors and things like that. And one time, we went to this warehouse and we could not trigger the motion detector. So we went to the only, one of the only places besides Walmart that's open really late. We went to the porn store and we got an inflatable doll and we shoved it under the door

and we inflated this rubbery inflatable, you know what doll, sex doll. And this person-shaped thing inflates under the door and triggers the motion detector. We opened the door and we walk in. And the videotape of this is absolutely priceless. We wanted to keep the footage, but it's not ours to keep with it. Oh my God. Because we looked at each other after that attack and we're like, this is one of those moments

in your career where you just go, I can't believe this is my job. And also, if there's a highlight reel for like social engineers or like White Hat, Red Team, Breachers, this is gonna be in it. That's amazing. All of it, I think for you're super fascinating. You're much more than just a podcast interview guy, you know that.

Yeah, I've had several careers. I just enjoy interviewing now because it's's it keeps me inside on cold days. Oh well listen I you're like I can go on and on with you I know you have something to do so that's why I'm stopping you because I don't want you to get mad at me that I kept Pretty too long but Well, you please come back and we can I know you see you got people who can do it But that all this like I guess like human hacking and behavioral stuff, I think that stuff is super fascinating and I don't even care if someone knows more,

the way that you kind of explain it and how it lands, I think is very, it's interesting and it's like a resonate. So if you wouldn't mind. Of course, I would love to. All right, good. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me on. What do I do now?

Do I just say goodbye? You say, where can people find you? And I go, the Jordan Harbanger Show, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me on. Hey, what do I do now? Do I just say goodbye and say where can people find you? And I go, the Jordan Harbinger Show, if you listen to podcasts, I also have a YouTube channel. I put some of my interviews on YouTube or you can follow me on Instagram or Twitter at Jordan Harbinger. I would just say something like that. Something like that. That sounds great. Okay. Okay. Well, there are things. I'll know for next time. You're welcome. Yeah. No problem. Thanks for having me on. Thank you. Bye-bye. There are things. I'll know for next time. You're welcome. Yeah. No problem. Thanks for having me on. Thank you. Bye-bye.

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