Habits and Hustle - Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

In conversations do you tend to dominate or take a backseat?  In this Habits and Hustle episode, I’m re-sharing a conversation I had with etiquette expert Sara Jane Ho about using guidelines to foster a more interactive, balanced dialogue, and deeper connection.  Listen as we discuss the challenge of dancing around the fine line between curiosity and intrusiveness, noting cultural differences in what's considered polite or rude, and the intersection of East meets West and female empowerment - especially in business! She also shares the true impact of making a strong first impression, especially in the world of modern dating, and the evolving norms of social etiquette in the post-COVID world.  Sara Jane Ho is the star of Netflix’s “Mind Your Manners”, author of the book of the same name, founder of Chinese finishing school, Institute Sarita, where students are taught etiquette and lifetime skills. What We Discuss: (11:00) The legacy of etiquette and charm schools  (20:00) How to master etiquette and dating in the modern world  (22:18) The impact of a first impression  (37:00) The essential guide to exceptional table manners  (51:10) The key differences between curiosity and intrusiveness  (58:34) Career choices and female empowerment (01:01:51 Herbal remedies and Eastern medicine  (01:11:50) Innovative intimate wellness company and proper vulva hygiene education  (01:25:14) Avoiding graveyard energy in your home, and the 20 second/40 second rule  …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: AquaTru: Get 20% off any purifier at aquatru.com with code HUSTLE Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off  TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code Jen at checkout. BiOptimizers: Want to try Magnesium Breakthrough? Go to https://bioptimizers.com/jennifercohen and use promo code JC10 at checkout to save 10% off your purchase. Timeline Nutrition: Get 10% off your first order at timeline.com/cohen Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers.    Find more from Jen:  Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen   Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Sara Jane Ho: Website:https://www.sarajaneho.com/  Book: Mind Your Manners Instagram: @sarajaneho

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it! Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therisage. Their Tri-Lite panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go and I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations and places in my body where honestly I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine

lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therisage Trilite everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to Therisage.com right now and use code BBOLD for 15% off. This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to Therasage.com and use code BBOLD for 15% off any of their products. [♪ Music playing. Alright guys, this is a fun episode we're doing today because I have Sarah Jane Ho, otherwise known as Sarah Jane, that's how you go by, who wrote a book called Mind Your Manners. She has the same name for her Netflix show, which is now not going into season two.

We don't know yet, but it's only been season one. It's only been season one, but she is a renowned etiquette expert. I can't wait to ask you my questions. And we are gonna get really into all this stuff. Sarah Sanko, thank you so much for being on this podcast. Thank you for having me. I love talking about habits and hustle.

Well, I'm glad because we're going to be talking all about habits and hustle, but how to do it properly. I mean, I got to tell you, I'm actually kind of nervous to have you on. I told you that when you walked in because I don't know, I think maybe I need like, I need to hire you because there's a couple of areas of my life that probably I'm not the most groomed and well, my etiquette may be a little bit lacking. So this could be like-

Can't wait to find out. Yeah, well, first question I have is give me your background. What makes you an expert in etiquette? Because do you go to school for that? I know that you created a school for it, but how do we know, like, why is it what you say is the right way? Yeah, that's a great question. So by the age of 14 years old, I'd grown up in Papua New Guinea, the UK, Hong Kong, and

Exeter, New Hampshire, because I went to boarding school at Phillips Exeter. And so I was very much a third culture kid. You know, I was always like between really different cultures and trying to figure out how to fit in, right, which is kind of the one thing about like being human, right? Human connection and belonging. And so it was very much a survival tool for me to be in different micro-cultures and figure out, okay, how do I fit in? What are the codes of conduct here?

What is the, how are people dressed? What is the slang used? And later on, when I graduated from Harvard Business School in 2012, I, well, first I went to a Swiss finishing school, which is, uh, it was where women used to go back in the day because we didn't have the opportunity to go to college. And so women would finish their education at these finishing schools. It was mostly in Europe, but in America you have CHOM school, right? You have etiquette schools very much in America too, back in the day.

And now, you know, women are emancipated, women can vote, women go to university. So we no longer go to these finishing schools. But for me, going to finishing school and starting a finishing school in China for women, because we don't do kids, we do adult women, it was an opportunity I wanted to combine what I was passionate about with what I felt was a market need because no other country has been like China where they've gone through so much change in such a short amount of time. Like when you think about the industrial revolution, right, that alone took 150 years to play out in Europe. And then you have like the services revolution, the technological revolution. In China, you've had industrial services technological in 30 years. So that's a huge amount of change in a really short amount of time.

Because China only opened up with economic reforms in 1978. So you have all these people with new found riches, right? And then, but then trying to figure out how to navigate the world with confidence. And for me, when I was growing up, my mother was very much a, she was a role model, and she was always hosting in the house, creating magical moments between friends. Christmas would be, you know, dozens of people at our house. And then I lost her to cancer when I was 21 years old. And my life really changed. I'm an only child.

My dad didn't entertain in the same way on his own. And my home went from being, you know, really warm and loving and busy, to very cold and lonely and empty until I realized, because I'm a Sagittarius and I love, you know, being with friends and organizing, you know, social events, I've as I could continue her legacy, right, in something that I also enjoyed doing with etiquette. And so that's why in 2012, I moved to Beijing, and I founded my etiquette school. Wow. So let me ask you, because you were saying something that was interesting. So the U S or North America has charmed schools.

The European version would be considered finishing school. This is actually very timely because some very close friends of mine are from, I have actually a lot of friends from London and they are, this one girl, her name's Amanda, I'm going to give her a shout out. She is all about etiquette and manners and she has like impeccable manners and she always teases me about certain things. And so, you know, I find it's very, it's a very European thing.

I haven't seen that same type of, I don't know. Well, you wouldn't in California. Let me just put it this way. You wouldn't in California. Yeah. I mean, like it's- You wouldn't have. So it's very culture. It's very culture-based, isn't it? Like it's not, well, you tell me, you said something. Yeah. So California is very casual, right? It's convenient. It's casual. It doesn't have the same sort of depth of history as the North, as New England, right? Whereas like New England and then the South. So the South is a lot of focus on charm

school. That was a big thing. And debutantes, right, coming out, their debut into society. So America is so big that you're right, it is very culturally different. So right. So now that you said that, you're right. Like very, because, you know, like again, my friends who are very Southern, they say their children say Miss Jennifer, like it's true, like it's very specific to the culture and where you actually live, like that is. So then let's say, is it also, I guess it's not just a socio economic thing, because in itself, no matter where you are socioeconomically, your manners

and the way you speak to people and how you address people is very different than how you would, like you said, in California or in different cultures. So that is actually quite interesting. But you know, back in the day, it would be so, for example, in Europe, if you're from a good family, then you'd be sent to actually, if you're a man, you'd be sent on a grand tour of Europe to go study the arts, to go see, let's say, like, you know, to go to Italy, to go to Greece, to go here and there, to finish your education, right? Women would be sent to finishing schools

to prepare them for life as a hostess. Princess Diana, for example, went to finishing school in Switzerland. Right. And so what did you learn there? Give me an example of what were you, what did they teach you? Yeah. Give me a day in the life of what you do. Yeah. So I was there for two and a little bit, two months, a little over two months.

And it's a very intensive course schedule, you know, from morning till late afternoon. The course itself is called a hostess course. And there were a lot of modules and everything from dining to dressing, to table conversation, greetings and introductions, a lot of country learnings, because etiquette is contextual. So there's no right or wrong in etiquette. It really, it's contextual. It depends on where you are, who you're with. For example, for example, let's say if I give a gift to you and we're in the West,

you would open the gift in front of me to show importance to the gift. You would read the note in front of me, you would make a big fuss of it and show gratitude. Now in Asia, if I gave you a gift and if you opened it up straight away, it would show greediness and that you have no self-control. So in Asia, if I receive a gift, I put it aside. I don't make a fuss of it, just put it aside. And then maybe on my own is when I'll open it up. And then, you know, later on, then I'll thank the person who gave it to me.

Do they teach you in finishing school contacts like that? So they'll say like in the West, this is what happens. In Asia, this is what happens. Do they break it down? So when I went to Swiss finishing school in Switzerland, it was very European-based, but they would talk about different countries on their own. So there'd be country modules.

Now, I actually tweaked a lot of the course schedule to for my local market for China. And everything we teach, we do what you just asked about, which is a Chinese and Western comparison. And because I spent my life being between both extremely different cultures, it comes very naturally for me to say, well, this is how it's done in China, how we do it in China, this is how we've done it in the UK or in Europe, and this is how it's done in America. But does it ever, do people ever get like, I kind of joked around, like I got nervous when I have, I am nervous because even the way you're sitting

and the way you're so polite and you kind of know your P's and Q's, it makes the other person feel more uncomfortable. Does anyone ever get uncomfortable with you? So here's the thing, if you're nervous around me, then I'm doing something wrong. Oh, I'm not nervous around you actually. That's what's been funny though.

You're not making me nervous. It's just the fact that you have that title in front of your name. Yes, and because to me etiquette, and this is how I'm trying to redefine etiquette. People think that etiquette is, it's really, they think it's very traditional, that it should be told by a strict middle-aged lady

with her hair in a bun, something, and wearing a suit. And to me, etiquette is just about, it's about putting people around you at ease. That is really what the spirit of etiquette is, that the people feel comfortable around you and then you feel comfortable around them. And that goes again back to human connection, human belonging, which is what makes us human.

Because it's funny, because when you think about it, the people who are the most, the best manners, the most highly, I guess they seem, they come across conservative or much more stuffy than the average person, right? Like, so there has to be a good balance of understanding human nature and like EQ, like having a good EQ to know how to make the other person feel comfortable. Yes, exactly. EQ and knowing how to read the air is what I talk about in my book, right?

When you go into a room and when you meet a new person, you can kind of pick up on the vibes, I guess, is what you'd say in American culture. In China, we'd call it the qi, Q-I, the energy, you read energy. And so even for me, let's say if I'm, let's say we're sitting at a dining table, I'm speaking with you like this, actually out of this corner of my eye,

I can see who's bored, who's shy, who's playing on their phone, who needs a top up for their wine glass, all these things. So having that self-awareness and sensitivity. And I think part of it is also, you know, the reason why I decided to target adults for my finishing school is because I believe that it begins with upbringing and the most beautiful gift a parent can give their child is good manners.

I totally agree. I think one of the ugliest things is when a child has bad manners and they're at the table manners. Like I always notice those things as I joke around about myself. I try to be much, I'm very cognizant of those things for my own children because it does, it doesn't present well about, it says a lot about the person and the individual. But sometimes don't you have to start young because if you're starting at you're saying you're starting with young adults So then they can teach their children, right? Actually, I'd start with mothers. So so yeah, so my my finishing school it's for ladies and many are mothers It's like 90% of my clients are mothers so they can then teach their children

Yeah, right Because they want to be role models for their children and to me that is the most the most important thing. And I do have some young adults, like actually, sometimes I have mothers and daughters because I have a hostess course for married women and a debutante course for unmarried women. So sometimes I'll have a mother in hostess and then her daughter in my debutante class. Okay. So tell me, I'm so curious about this. Okay. So it's still happening. You still have this finishing school in China. Yes.

Okay. How many people are enrolled? Like how long is the course? Is it a year? Do they live there? Not live very long. Yeah. Okay. So I opened my Beijing school in 2013, followed by a Shanghai school in 2015. So at some point I was between two cities. My co-founder, Rebecca, who's my co-founder for my finishing school to this day, she's based in Beijing. And actually she does, because now I'm traveling a lot and she does most of the teaching now. During COVID, China had pretty stringent lockdowns and during that time it was just impossible to hold a class to teach. And so I closed down both physical schools. And now we're so actually what we do now is whenever we have classes,

we have them in the Waldorf Astoria in Shanghai, for example, or we work with different, we'll just choose different venues and different hotels to hold our courses in. And how long is the course? Well, the hostess course is 10 days long. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then the debutant course is eight days long, but we also have weekend courses. And we also work with a lot of luxury brands to hold etiquette workshops for their VIPs, so for their customers. I love this. So you teach, like, would you do like how to set a table?

Absolutely, we do. Like what are the top, what are the top ones? British afternoon tea, table manners is the most popular and most practical course. Yeah, I would imagine. Right, because in China everybody uses chopsticks, right? Right. And even Western dining is a really new concept. Really, yeah.

That really just came about. I mean, in the nineties, it was a very, basically no Western restaurants in China. And then in the two thousands, a couple started springing up. Now every Michelin chef is going to China. Yes, I agree with you and I know that to be true. What I actually love about how you present

or how you, even in your book, it's kind of like to me, like a coffee table book, where you don't have to read it all at once. Like it's there. It's an easy read. And there's so many great tips. Like there's a dating section, there's a table manners, there's, there's different sections. So like you can just pull and just read a little bit and then put it down and go

back. It's not, it's not sequential like that, right? Exactly. And it's a combination of anecdotes, a lot of anecdotes, little co-tips, right? So each section is maybe one to two pages. Exactly. And it's like I said, an easier read. So I want to ask you a few questions, okay? So, or go through a couple of things that I thought were very interesting. Let's just talk about, you said in the book,

it takes eight positive encounters to change someone's negative impression of you. So can you just talk about that and who figured that out? How do you know this to be true? Please just expand on that. Well, we need to dial it back to first impressions and first impressions, some research says two minutes, some research says not even

a second, right? So somebody's forming a first impression of you within like, within a second of seeing you. So that's before you even speak, before you say anything. And usually, I mean, we want to make good first impressions. That's why it's so important. And whenever we make a negative, let's say if we have, if somebody forms a negative impression of us, then it takes, it's varying. So some people have said it takes a certain number of hours. But generally speaking, everybody points to some Harvard research study that, you know, that doesn't really exist, that I haven't been able to find. But generally speaking, they say it takes eight positive encounters to change the mind of somebody's negative impression

of you. So if you know that, then, know that, then it's much better to make a good first impression rather than to make a bad impression and then have to work really hard to turn that around. Well, I thought also you talk about, and this is a lot of the things, I think a lot of it also if you have a higher EQ and you kind of are street smart, you kind of know this instinctually, but it's a great reminder. But you know, your last impression is actually more important than your first impression, because that's what you leave with. And it's true, because when you think about it, no matter how much great stuff you've done, it's always the last thing that people always remember, right?

So I think, and there's also a name for it, and I don't remember the, oh yeah, what was it? It's, oh gosh. The law of the lost look. Oh, the recency effect. The recency effect. Yes. And so to me, let's talk about that,

because I think that is, people don't sometimes remember that to be true. Yeah, and it's funny, I mean, you could have been doing, you could have been performing consistently well at work, for example. And if you screw up, you know, the most recent project, then that's the recency effect, right? In people's minds, okay, well, but she screwed up the last project. So the way to work around that is to then actively make good on a lot of projects in order to move the bad project further down the line. Well the way I see it is that that would be like the eight positive encounters or positive

things. Like you have to work, like you said, extra, extra hard to kind of compensate for those things. Absolutely. Right? But I always think about that. Like if I'm leaving a party or a meeting, yes, like you may like the first impression of course, that's people have like a, they automatically like have a thought of who you are.

But if you leave strong, I think that's more important because, and eye contact to me is really important. Yeah, and you've started to have how many young young people these days eye contact, it's an issue. Well, how can you even teach etiquette and manners to a generation when they're not even socializing anymore? They're always on their phone. Everything is technology driven. they've lost even the baseline of socialization or interaction. So how could you teach people better etiquette? Do you then just like, do you shift and pivot to then technology, you know, app etiquette? How do you correspond?

How do you socialize online? Is that what you are you learning those things to then help the new generation because of where we are in the world? Well, I think all of us at all generations are learning those things to then help the new generation because of where we are in the world? Well, I think all of us at all generations are learning those things. Yeah. We grapple with the digital world. And that's why at the end of every chapter, whether it's my social chapter, work, career, love and relationships, food and dining, at the end, there's always a sub-chapter. So I end every chapter with a sub-chapter that talks

about the digital etiquette for these things. And I think that, you know, my Netflix show, My Dual Manners was delayed because of COVID. So production was delayed because of COVID. It ended up coming out out of COVID, which was end of 2022. But in many ways, I felt that that was more timely because coming out of COVID, everybody, right, had a bit of social anxiety.

Our social skills are a bit rusty. We're feeling more isolated and alone than ever. And we have this whole generation, like you said, our social skills are a bit rusty, we're feeling more isolated and alone than ever. And we have this whole generation, like you said, where, I mean, they're going through a mental health crisis. And it absolutely is in line with social media and the digital age. You're right. So then, right.

Because people were like, well, hiding behind screens. Hiding behind screens or like they can talk on a Zoom for a very finite period of time, even dating though. Like let's just talk about the relationship aspect. You know, like now that's how people are meeting people is through online apps. So you talk, you have a whole area in the book about this. Can you just give us some proper etiquette for dating 101 in etiquette? Because there's so many crazy things that are happening with how people are communicating, what should they say, how much should they say, you know, like, are you supposed to wait three days before you sleep with somebody? Are you supposed to do this?

Like, there's so much noise. Can you just break it down to the top five things that people should do well or do when they're dating online? Yeah, so the top five things people should be mindful of when dating, whether online or offline, is first of all, for your first date, keep it casual. Right? Keep it casual and have it so that you can control the timeframe. Right? Don't sit down for a three-course dinner. Have a coffee, take a walk in the park. Because if it's not working out, don't waste your time. Time is the most valuable thing in everybody's life right now.

Right. And then, so you can control the time and then exit when you need to exit. Secondly, I would say the first three days we're getting to know someone, but don't go too heavy. Like wait till date three to see if you actually, when you get to know somebody or see if you're attracted to somebody. Cause by date three, you kind of should know if you're attracted or not before digging into all of that personal history, right?

Before, you know, asking about their exes, their divorce, or, you know, kids, et cetera, all that stuff. When it comes to sex, because you just mentioned, right, and so in the book I say, wait for as long as you can stand it. Not that I'm saying a one-eyed stand is bad, hey, like, I don't judge, and I think everybody should have a bit of fun,

but if you're looking for a serious relationship, then you should wait for as long as you can stand it. And actually, it'll be better. I totally listen, I judge. I think that like people are just jumping into bed with any but that's, that's because that's over taken over like relationships. Now people are not even having relationships. They're like, hooking up, they're having situationships. Like to me, like we've lost the ability, like I said, to like truly connect with people because we're just, everything's becoming very transactional.

And I do find this to be like a big problem, but continue. And then I would say that like for me, I had my best relationships when I was the best version of myself. And listen, all of our issues stem from childhood and there's no such thing as perfect parenting, right? So I think the sooner you can understand your own issues and the emotional damage from right, your childhood and the sooner you can work on that, whether it's reading self-help books, whether it's listening to podcasts, whether it's getting therapy, which I'm a huge proponent of, then the sooner you can become the best version of yourself, you're like a mirror, you will attract the best partner that you can attract.

CWK Yeah, I agree with that, of course. But there's been a lot of backlash now within mental health. I was just reading this article about people are relying on therapy so much where then you're just focusing only on your problems. Have you seen any of this research where it's actually increasing the level of anxiety and depression? Because you're basically, you're constantly giving, this is not about the etiquette, that this just an article I found really interesting. You're kind of just giving so much focus and attention to all the problems you have and labeling your problems, as opposed to how it used to be like even like 40, 30

years ago when I was a kid, right? And so that's part of the reason why the mental health crisis has been kind of getting higher. Besides, of course, the comparison in social media and all of the other stuff and the inability to socialize. But also then, we're becoming very self-absorbed and coddled, where then we're just focusing on ourselves 24 hours a day. And it's actually becoming, it's the pendulum has swung too

far. That is really interesting. And I can see that. I can see that we are becoming very coddled. So it's a fine balance. And it's a balance that, you know, I think, I think we need to think critically for ourselves. You know, so much of his herd mentality and we just jump on and that's cancel culture too, as well, right? 100%. Everything is perfect. Just jumping on high behind the screen, no accountability. What happened to thinking mentality and we just jump on and that's cancel culture too as well, right? 100%. Everything is free. Just jumping on high behind the screen, no accountability.

What happened to thinking for yourself and thinking about what's important to you and thinking about what you want to do about it? You know, it's interesting that you just said that and I'm going to now segue it back to your book, not even on purpose, but because that's what I noticed when I was reading it. You said a couple of things that were contrary to what I would think that you would have said. Like what? I love being contrary.

No, no, no. I was, cause you know, the whole like breaking up on text message for, that was one just easy example, just to pull from because everyone's like, how it's not appropriate. How dare you? You're so rude. And so I, when I was bringing this whole area about the dating and the relationships, and then you talked about actually breaking up with your boyfriend on a text message and how it's totally fine and people

should not be like saying that's bad etiquette. I was really impressed because of the reason behind it, right? So I agree with you. I think that not everything has to be this way or that way because it's like, it fits into a nice box. So I love, can you just tell the story actually? I love it. I'm sure my ex-boyfriend is wearing it right now. But well, yeah, who knows? He blocked me, but. And by the way, obviously you changed his name, right?

Or no, you didn't. Oh, obviously. I kept the first letter the same. So any good anecdote, good story where it's a praise, I keep the real name. If it's a negative story, I change the name, but I keep the first letter as the same. So like, you know, Sarah B. Susie. A hundred percent. I love it. I love that.

Okay. So tell us why. Okay. So explain that because... And of course, I mean, it was in your time style profile that came out in January, 2023. And when I, of course they take the one thing that I say out of like a 36 hour, you know, of them shadowing me and they make that the headline. Yeah, I love it. Of course they would. Clickbait.

Of course, yeah. So when I saw it, I cringed. And then I sent it to my cousin, Adrienne, who I'm closest with. And she, and when she saw it, you know, she was like, OMG. And I was dying in a, you And I was dying. I really wanted to post it on Instagram or social media because it's a New York Times style profile and I love the photo. And everything else about the article is great. And then 10 minutes later, when Adrienne finished,

she finished reading the article. She was like, you know what? It's the perfect title. Because it talks about how etiquette is contextual and so saying you know the etiquette guru who broke up with her boyfriend over text like it's contextual and now I embrace title and that ex his friend sent me the title along with comments like what a title right well actually listen I think it works because I think life is contextual right right? Everything in life is contextual. And if you are in a terrible relationship and you get the courage in that moment to do it, then just do it.

The problem is, in your case, it obviously stuck, but a lot of times people go back and forth anyway. Well, you know, we were on again, off again. He was very insecure and controlling. And so I'm, I was, it was day nine of shooting my Netflix show. I was like, here I am telling my students to live their best lives.

And over here, I have this needy and controlling boyfriend who's making me cry all the time and show up on set with puffy eyes. And so I was like, you know what? Like, this is it, like we're done. And at that point, I was maybe 34, 34 years old. And you think like, oh, it's some cost fallacy, right? We learned this in Harvard Business School.

It's like, oh, I invested four years in this relationship already. And I'm already this age. Like maybe, maybe I should just stay with it. Cause who knows? Like it's hard to meet somebody these days. Literally when I sent that text, I was prepared to be single for the rest of my life. I was like, I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than be in a relationship that makes me unhappy.

I felt as free as a boat, often just cutting it off. I, it was, and I think I needed something as an intent, as intense and overwhelming as shooting a Netflix show to push me to make that decision. Cause I literally didn't have an ounce, not even like a millimeter of space for anything that was not adding value to my life. Good.

And then I spent the next eight weeks shooting my show, went, flew back to China where I spent Christmas day and New Year's Eve in a 14 day hotel quarantine, cause it was COVID lockdown, all that stuff. Popped out of quarantine, had a first date with my, my now husband, seven, seven months later was legally wedded. Okay.

I'm so happy. Like I, every, every day I thank my husband for being such an incredible husband to me. So supportive, so kind, so letting me be myself. Yeah. How did you meet him? We met years ago at some event that I hosted at one of my finishing schools. Once you have a space, physical space, you always have to activate it. So every week I'd have a couple of events, non-edificate related.

Each event would be like 40, 50 people. And so he had my business card, but he never reached out to me until like, you know, 2023 or 2022, 2022. Yeah. Wow. And then she went out and like, and like, is he also similar to you or? He doesn't speak a word of English. Are you serious? So I, you know, I feel like he lives in Shanghai.

Okay. Hi. Right. And, and I feel like I have this double life because I'm, you know, I feel like he lives in Shanghai. And I feel like I have this double life because I'm, I obviously, I grew up very comfortable with the West. I went to, I went to Phillips Exeter, I speak English. Yeah. And, but at the same time, oh, and I had to learn Mandarin. And then I went over there and I, and then I had to like open my etiquette school and

teach customers who did not speak a word of English. I had to hire staff who didn't speak English, right? So I literally like, I had to really localize. And to this day, that is one of the, my like achievements that I'm most proud of. Yeah. That when I speak Mandarin, I speak it so fluently and with such an accent that the locals don't believe I'm not a local. Wow.

Are you serious? That's like a, isn't that the most difficult language to learn? Yeah, one half. Yeah, it's really, really, really difficult. So, so, and people would say, oh, what do you mean you're from Hong Kong? You must just have gotten Hong Kong passport. I'm like, no, no, like I had to learn Mandarin later on in life. And they say that's not possible because your Mandarin is too good. So what languages do you speak then? English, Mandarin? English. I speak Cantonese because in Hong Kong English, Mandarin? English, I speak Cantonese,

because in Hong Kong I grew up speaking Cantonese. Cantonese, yeah. I studied French and German. In Hong Kong I went to a German school, so I speak German and French, and then Mandarin. So what does he do back in Shanghai? So he does real estate. So this is what's interesting.

Okay, so first of all, I didn't ask you yet, because I guess I was nervous at the beginning. Not because of you, but because, like, how you're, you know, I'm just trying to mirror how you're sitting and all these little things. How did you even get the Netflix show? Oh, yeah. Let's start with that, because, like, how did they even know of you? I mean, you said there's a lot of, like, charm schools in the US. I don't know how many right now,

but back then it was a thing. But what happened was a production studio based in Singapore that called Beach House Productions. They found me, they cold emailed me. They emailed my info at, you know, whatever email. Okay. In 2018. Oh.

And then asked me if they could pitch me as an idea to some streaming platforms and Netflix bought the show. So what year did Netflix buy it? It was 2020 before COVID. Well, yeah, it was before COVID, and we were supposed to go into production, but then COVID hit, and then that put a spatter in the works. And then we ended up shooting end of 2021 in Sydney.

And how many episodes did you do? Six episodes, so season one, six episodes. So then your partner, she didn't want to do the show with you or does she in the show or what's the... No, she's not on the show. She stayed in China. You know, she has a family in China and so she was just, she never expressed interest and Netflix never asked and it wasn't...

So were you doing... If we shot in China, she'd probably be in it just because, right, like it... No, no, it makes sense. But then at that time they could only get me a visa to go to Australia. Australia was very strict with COVID at that time. It was very strong. Even Australians couldn't get into Australia. I remember.

Do you remember that whole thing? They were pissed. No back with the tennis player. Yes, Djokovic. Yeah, Djokovic. But then, okay. So before you got the Netflix show and I know you already had, you already had the finishing schools, were

you around doing expert? Like were you doing- No, I was just in China. Were you an expert? You weren't an etiquette expert on like TV shows or doing anything, building a trans. Oh, in China I was. In China, but not anywhere else. Yeah, I was crazy busy just focusing on China, but I got a lot of overseas media interviews.

So people are listening. So people did kind of know who you were in the space. Yes, yes. In 2013, Forbes, I was one of Forbes 12 Women to Watch. 2015, BBC, I was on their list of like 100 women. So how did they know of you? How did this happen? It was really just word of mouth.

There was five years when I started my business, I never even came back to America because I was so busy. I was literally like, my weekends were the busiest. When people had time off was when I was busy. I was teaching all the time. I would fly all over China. So not just in our schools, but I would fly to like Chongqing, Xi'an, Fujian, all these places.

I was doing like three cities a week to teach. And it was just, I mean, it was exhausting. So you were actually one of the people teaching at your schools. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Because we're a boutique school and we don't have a lot of, we have three teachers. But we had a lot of like, we'd bring a lot of experts, like styling experts. We'd have, you know, Rebecca's, you know, a wine expert. We'd have an art expert. So all these things. They got to teach their own modality, right?

Yes, yes. So what would be your modality that you would teach? Well, the thing I love most is Weston table manners. Yes. That's what I absolutely loved. And it was probably one of the, yeah, like the highlight classes that students really love too. Can you get, okay, so if you say, because you just said table manners, like give me

a few top, besides like- Do's and don'ts? Like, yeah, do's and don'ts. Like yeah, do's and don'ts, but not so obvious ones, like I know put the napkin on your lap, the way you say like double the napkin and give me some other ones that aren't so obvious that people do regularly that we should maybe stop doing. Yeah, so don't hold your knife like a pen. You'd be surprised how many people do that. They hold their knife like a pen. Okay'd be surprised how many people do that. They hold their knife like a pen.

Okay, like this? Don't do this? Well, when you write, it's like, you'd be surprised. A lot of people hold their knife like a pen. Okay, show us how to hold it. The way you held it is correct, like this. Oh, really? Yeah. Versus?

Versus like cutting like this. Okay, okay. All right, so- So I was right, see there Amanda, I was right. There you go. Okay, so I was right. See there, Amanda, I was right. There you go. Okay. Okay. Go ahead.

And, and so, okay. So here's something that people may not always know. So when you're at a restaurant, when the waiter gives you a menu and you've made you a decision, you should close the menu because that is a signal to the waiter that you've already made your decision and he can approach you. If your menu still stays open. He thinks that you haven't made your decision yet. He thinks you're still deciding.

Yes, that makes sense. And will not come by. Okay, that's a good one. And let's say you started eating, you picked up your cutlery, you started eating, and you want to take a sip of water, right? You need to put your cutlery down, but just as a rest, right? Then your cutlery should be in an upside down V shape

on your plate. Upside down V shape. Like this is a V. Yeah. If your plate is round, it should be like this. Right, because that was the one thing I was gonna say at the beginning. She would get so mad at me

because where I place my cutlery after I eat. Did you put that half on the table, half on the plate? That's a big no-no. I don't remember how, but she like screamed at me over it. How are you supposed to put your cutlery after you eat? Where's the place? After you eat, they should be parallel,

like right next to each other parallel, and they should stay on the plate. And they can be like in a six o'clock. Okay, that sounds okay. I think that's what she said. Okay. And so, okay, give me a few other ones. Oh, here's a fun one.

So when you, let's say if you're a woman and you have lipstick on, right? And you're drinking from your wine gloss. Well, you do not want to drink around the rim of your wine gloss because that will leave stains all over your wine gloss. It'll just look really bad. Make sure you're just drinking from the same one place. That's a good one. I like that one.

That's a good one. Oh, another one you said, which I didn't realize, because this is, I think people do this all the time. When you are having a dinner, you're going to, you're sitting at a table. People always assume that the host should get the best seat, but it's actually the guest that should get the best seat. The guest of honor. Yeah. Well, yeah, if it's just, yeah, if it's just you two, the host and the guest, it should be the guest who should get the best seat.

Exactly. And so for example, let's say if you're in a restaurant and there's a banquet, let's say there's like one chair with its back against the wall. Let's say there's one chair facing a wall, there's one chair facing the room, then the better seat is the one facing the room and you should give that to your guest. That makes sense. But how about at the head of the table? Should that not be the host? It depends if you're seating French style or English style.

So let's say the table is rectangular and English style would place the host and hostess at the ends of the table. French style would place host and hostess at the middle of the of the long table. Oh, so there's so there's a difference between French style and English style. And usually French style is reserved for a big party. So it's like a 20 person dinner or even more like a state dinner, right? If let's say King Charles is hosting a state dinner, then usually the host and hostess sit in the middle of the long table. That way all the VIPs that sit near the host and hostess can speak to each other.

And then the less important you are, the further away from the middle you sit. And then English style is reserved for small, like at home, for example, a dinner of six people, eight people, 10 people. And the host and hostess are at the ends of the table. And then the VIPs are next to them. And then the less important people are towards the middle of the table.

So everybody feels cocooned. But this works for small dinners. I love that. Okay, so I didn't even get to any of my questions, but even like how you position your feet, right? I saw something that if your feet are in a V position, does that make it your your clothes, your open? What does this mean? This is a non-verbal communication, right? So, actually, if I'm at a gathering or a social function, sometimes I'll sit or I'll stand with my hands like this and my palms facing up. Because actually when you show your palm,

it's an open gesture. It's an open gesture. Whereas if it's like this, and this is a closed gesture, I mean, this we all know, right? So even just small, and so if you're standing, if you're standing and your like feet are all like tangled up, then that's kind of closed. But if you're, if you're like, you know, if your feet are relaxed like that comfortable in ballet, it's the fifth position, right? The V and that's just an open, an open gesture.

Is there any, I have to give you some other ones that people don't know in terms of body language. We all know this one and this. Give us some other ones that maybe are not so obvious. Yeah. Well, here's a fun thing that's history related. The history behind shaking hands, why do humans shake hands? It's to show that we don't have weapons in our hands. That was the beginning of shaking hands.

Toasting, toasting wine. I mean, now we just raise our glass, right? But back then people would really, you know, really like go at it and then wine would fly around into each other's cups. And why was that? To show that the host had not poisoned their guests wine. That was the purpose of toasting.

So why do we still do it? Do we need to? Because hundreds of years of tradition. And so, and now it's still a nice gesture to toast, to welcome someone or to kick off an event or to, you know, it's just to have that is nice. What do you think of a fist pump? Because I feel like now people are not-

With COVID. Yeah, with COVID, they're not shaking their hands, they're doing the fist pump. Yeah, and that's fine, but hey, listen, we just went through three years of the first ever kind of event in the world that affected literally the whole world. So we changed with the times and etiquette should be updated with the times. So what are some things that have shifted and changed since you were young? What are

some things that are very current etiquette wise since after COVID that were not part of the etiquette system or protocol before? So, I mean, the one that you just mentioned, handshake is a big thing. Yeah. Let's see. I would say, so here's something funny.

In Asia, whenever you are sick, you wear a mask. That was always the case before COVID. So if you see an Asian person wearing a mask, it usually means because they have a sniffle and they don't wanna give it to you. Very different from the West where it's like, okay, I'm gonna wear it to protect myself. In Asia, it was more of a sign of respect

where I have a cold, I don't want to pass on my office, thus I'm going to wear a mask. Well, I thought though people in Asia were wearing masks for many, many years because they didn't want to get sick. I thought it was kind of smart. It definitely was not as widespread. And in China, at least it's more you wear a mask because you were sick and you don't want to, and in Japan as well, you don't want to pass that on to somebody else. But now wearing a mask is much more commonplace. Now when I fly around America, I see Americans wearing masks. Do you wear a mask? No.

It depends. It really depends. I mean, when I flew back from New York to Hong Kong, on that flight, I got COVID and then I gave it to my dad who ended up in hospital and he made it okay. But after that, that made me a lot more careful. So if I'm about to see an old person, and then I try to protect myself so that I don't get anything to pass on to an old person. Yeah, that makes sense. So in terms of etiquette for post-COVID, 2024 now,

give us some other ones besides a fist pump or, is there anything you can think of? Well, I would say that if you were really sick, if you've come down with something, then it's better to excuse yourself from a social gathering than to show up coughing and sneezing all over the other guests. Yeah. I think it's also, it's also a, oh, you'd be surprised, but it's also a really handy way to cancel last minute.

Batting kids, you know, there's that you go. Exactly. So let's say like you want it, you're single, you don't have the kid excuse. I know you can use that excuse. Yep. You know you can. Americans take up to 20,000 breaths a day and spend an average of 90% of their time indoors. The indoor air that we breathe can be up to a hundred times more polluted than outdoor air.

According to the EPA, indoor air pollutants can cause respiratory symptoms like sneezing, congestion, scratchy throat, and even more serious health problems like lung and heart disease. So what's the solution? Introducing Air Doctor, the air purifier that filters out 99.99% of dangerous contaminants so your lungs don't have to. This includes allergens, pollen, pet dander, dust mites, mold spores, and even bacteria and viruses. Air Doctor comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee. So if you don't love it, just send it back for a refund minus the shipping. Head to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSSLE,

and you'll receive up to $300 off air purifiers. Exclusive to podcast customers, you will also receive a free three-year warranty on any unit, which is an additional $84 value. Lock in this special offer by going to Hustle. That's airdoctorpro.com, promo code HUSTLE. Okay, this is what I wanted to ask you because I'm a very curious person, right? Just by nature, not because of the podcast. I mean, the podcast is just an evolution of a natural thing for me to do, considering I ask a ton of questions on a good day without a microphone. What is your opinion, in your opinion, what is the difference between being curious and

being intrusive? I think it's also contextual. If we were in Asia and somebody saw you and they said, oh, you've gained weight or oh, you've lost weight or oh, are you dating anyone out? When are you getting married? These are actually signs of care. And, and, and I, if, if let's say I saw a friend in China and the first thing he said, Oh, you gained weight, I actually would not be offended. I would not be offended because it's a way of showing they notice you. They care. Right. In the West, if they said that my God, it will be like slitting their throat

and like, you know, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. People either take it extremely personally or they would just think very poorly of you. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And, and so that's why it's very contextual. There is, there is no right or wrong. It's contextual. See, the way I look at it is that you can get away with anything if you it's not what you say. It's how you say it. I completely agree. And I say that in my book as well. And people think that etiquette is one big no. They think it's limiting. I have friends who tell me, oh, I have terrible etiquette, I'm too honest to have good etiquette. And I'm like, then you don't really understand the essence of etiquette. And when I say etiquette should be empowering and enabling, you can get what you want, you can ask for what you want, you can set boundaries, you can go speak to the person you want to speak to. It's all about how you do it.

See, that's exactly it. So when I was teasing about this whole I'm bad at etiquette, it was really what I was really referring to, or the table matters, because my friend always bothers me about it because of those things. Or just in terms of being very ladylike, just even looking at you.

I know you're gonna say, well, then you're not doing a good job, but I just think, is there some part of it? Like you, like I feel like I'm a bull in a china shop. That's just my personality. I'm like, I'm more, I'm like louder. I'm more aggressive. I'm more like, I'm more like, I'm, I'm, you know what I mean? I'm more of a- It's also cultural, right? I mean, Americans are kind of known, you know- And I'm Jewish, you know what I mean? I'm not American, I'm Canadian by the way. Oh, okay, well North American, I mean, it's kind of-

But it's not true, it's exactly, that's true. Americans for sure, but also it's personality driven, and you're right, like American, Canadian. That's what I was saying, like it would be really hard. Like I feel awkward when I'm too formal. I don't even know how to wear high heels properly without looking like a jerk off, because I'm not walking properly. You know what I mean? Because I don't feel myself. And you know what's actually very funny is that when I'm in China, I come across as much more

strong, more aggressive. But it's funny because in America, people come across as like much more strong, more aggressive because I'm, but it's funny because in America people may not necessarily say that about me, but in China I am. And that goes to show you again, like the contextual of it. Or you're a really good chameleon because you've learned to adapt because of your background and your training on etiquette. You know how to walk in and adjust. It's just, and it's like subconscious. It's even subconscious. And I remember like, so for example, I mean, when I'm in America,

I speak with an American, my American accent comes out, but when I'm with an English person or somebody with a UK accent, then I sound more English. And in fact, when I read in my audio book, I sound more English. And only, and I was wondering, ah, why don't I do that? Like I can't even help myself. And what somebody told me years ago was they said, it's actually, it's a form of good manners because you're trying to speak in a way

to let the other person understand you better. Yes. Subconsciously. So you're subconsciously switching over to that. Absolutely. But I do notice that, like my London, they seem so much more pristine and cultured because of the way they speak and the way they sound. Also, growing up in Europe, what happens is you get access. You travel through Europe and you do get more culture that way because you go to Italy, goes to Spain, you go to like London, you learn more about other people's nationalities and cultures, which then helps kind of refine you

a little bit better. Also, UK culture, I mean that it's, you know, silence is golden. So people like quiet time and you know, there's a culture of never complain, never explain, right? So I mean, it's just, it's very, it's very different. Whereas American culture is like, speak up for yourself, like complain if you want to, right? Well, you said, hold on a second. I actually was going to tell you the talking culture is versing like versus the listening

culture. Yes. Yes. So there is a big difference between that, right? Like I liked it like you said something, this is a great little trick, because we were just talking about the art of silence in a conversation. You used to mute the phone when you were at, I guess, I still do.

If I'm not speaking on the phone or on Zoom, I will mute myself. And only when the other person finished speaking, then I unmute. So my sort of resting face is mute, basically. Like I'm always on mute unless I'm speaking. That's a great tip because then you don't interrupt somebody. Yeah. And then you don't have any background noise, right? Like an ambulance passing by or if somebody's in the house, right? That you're not distracting the other person. Cause if the other person on the phone hears some distraction, they're going to be distracted. It's so true. And you know, again, these are things that common sense that you just don't realize in the moment until you get reminded.

Because when you speak on that, when I talk to people, and you can tell if I'm talking to my friend in New York or wherever, and I hear bustling on the streets and ambulances, like I'm annoyed because I can feel that they can't, how can they hear, hear and listen to me if I can hear all that noise? So that is a really good psychological thing to be do, trick because then the other person feels like they've been heard and listened to as well. Exactly. And it stops you from interrupting if you're somebody who interrupts a lot, right? Saying that for a friend. So that- We all have a friend who's saying that. Right, right, exactly. So then like, let me ask, I want to go back a bit. So because before you

opened up these finishing schools, you went to Harvard Business School, you went like, you're obviously a very business savvy, smart person. What would you have done, by the way, if it wasn't for this? Is there anything, did you, because you went to, you were at Goldman Sachs, you said, right? No, I was at Pirell & Weinberg. Oh, excuse me. Sorry. So basically, I interned for Morgan Stanley this summer before my senior year in investment banking in Hong Kong. When I graduated, I moved to New York City and I worked for Pirell & Weinberg, which was the two founders, Joe Pirell and Peter Weinberg. One came from Morgan Stanley,

the other came from Goldman Sachs. Oh, okay. And then what would you have done? Were you very entrepreneurial? Because I know now you Joe Perella and Peter Weinberg, one came from Morgan Stanley, the other came from Goldman Sachs. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then what would you have done? Were you very entrepreneurial? Because I know now you have your own line of, what do you call it? Yeah, intimate wellness. Intimate wellness.

Were you always someone who thought to be an entrepreneur, to start your own schools, to do all these things, or were you going more of a corporate route? What was your plan? When I was graduating from Hall of the Business School and trying to think about what I wanted to do, I basically narrowed my choice down by geography. And I thought at that time, China was becoming, was at that point a global power in 2012 with a lot of eyes on China. So it was becoming the second power, you know, second to America. And it was very exciting. And I'd lived in Beijing as a volunteer for a nonprofit before I went to

Harvard Business School. So I spent one year there and I thought me as a Hong Kong Chinese person, I really wanted to go, you know, experience this and be part of China and see what I could do. And so that was how I made my choice. I never considered anything else. You know, I'm, I'm very much a here and now kind of person. I never really think about, ah, what would I be doing otherwise?

And in my mind, I was like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to make it happen. And it's going to work. So like, where else can you go with being an etiquette expert? You wrote your first book, you have the show on Netflix. I would think, because this is my business brain, what you would have done would do a line of, you know, Martha Stewart. Yeah, tableware stuff.

Exactly. That's the obvious play, right? Yes. Okay. So here's the thing. Everything I've done in my career has been across two realms. One is East meets West. The other one is female empowerment, helping women move through the world with confidence. Great spin. I love it. And so two years ago when I was hanging out with my now co-founder for AntiVorta, my intimate wellness business, when we were hanging out and we were thinking we want to do something that we're really passionate about and that can bring the best of Chinese culture and

traditional Chinese medicine, which actually is her family business. So she's Taiwanese. Her grandpa founded his first traditional Chinese medicine TCM clinic in Taiwan in the 1940s. It's operating to this day by her cousins. So it was passed down because it's her maternal grandmother and Taiwan's very patriarchal. So it was passed down to the son and the son's son. And so she grew up with this in her family business.

She went to U Chicago, so she's very Americanized like me. And then she moved to Shanghai and she, she worked for some very exquisite luxury women's wear brands where she was CEO. So she was CEO of Stella McCartney for Asia Pacific for five years, managing hundreds of people. Wow. These are Stella McCartney. I know I actually noticed that. And then, and then she was CEO of Asia Pacific for Diesel Jeans for, uh, as well. And when we were meeting up, actually. And then she was CEO of Asia Pacific for diesel jeans as well. And when we were meeting up,

actually even before that she was GM of Shanghai Tang, which is gorgeous, exquisite Chinese brand. It was under Richemont, Shanghai Tang. Shanghai Tang. Oh wow, okay, yes. Yeah, so that was where she began early days. And then we were sitting down and we've always exchanged TCM wellness tips.

And she's like, you know, I'm so bored at my job. I'm not learning anything new. I don't feel like I'm doing something that's meaningful to me. I really care about life sciences. She got a PhD in neuroscience, by the way. She sounds like a real loser this week. And she's 5'11". Oh, God.

What's her name? Annie. Annie Ho. Oh, my God. Okay. So,? Annie, Annie Ho. Oh my God. Okay. So, so, you know, me being going to my sort of etiquette makeover mode, I was like, then I was like, well, if you don't like your life, then do something, then change your career. Do something that's meaningful to you. Yeah, yeah.

She's like, yeah, that's a good idea. What do you think I should do? And then, and then as we were thinking about this, like what we both loved, what we were passionate about, what we grew up with, we grew up with herbal remedies, because of her family business, me, because in Hong Kong, I grew up with acupuncture, herbal soups, all these things, because my parents were really into it. And we realized that like in TCM, a woman's health begins in her ovaries. So if your female reproductive health system, it like that's like that is the most important thing. And if that's good,

then the rest of your body is good, basically. So not like in the US, it's about the gut, the micro-gant. Yes. Okay. This is different. Very different. Yeah. And you know, in the East, it's about prevention. The West Western medicine, so Eastern medicine is about prevention. Western medicine is about treatment. It's about that quick fix, instantaneous, which I think is a fundamental problem in how we approach health in the West.

And I've grown up with both and I use both. So for example, two months ago, I did the Pranuvoscan and it was amazing. But I also get my weekly acupuncture and cupping and all that stuff as well, even when right, right. Even when I'm traveling. You said that. You said it helps your traveling. Yeah. And it helps me stay regular on my menstrual cycle because- The acupuncture does.

Acupuncture does. It's the only thing that- and in fact, this morning I was at a beauty store and the girl behind the counter was also telling me she does acupuncture every week because it's the only thing that- and she's white, never been to China. And she was saying it's the only thing that keeps her regular. white, never been to China. Right. She was saying it's the only thing that keeps her, that keeps her regular. And a Georgetown girlfriend of mine, who I saw in New York, she said it when she was 34, she stopped her, she didn't have her period for a year. She decided to go see an acupuncturist. It came the next day.

The next day, the next day. So I mean, like it's, and now acupuncture for women trying to conceive. Oh, I heard that. It is like one of, it's like the now acupuncture for women trying to conceive for fertility. It is like one of, it's like the number one thing every woman in America is doing now in Europe for fertility. Right? So, I mean- Also, they say NAD is very helpful.

Do you know what NAD is? It's like that Western chemical. It's like- It's basically a molecule. It's basically your body stops producing it as you age. Is that the, like, so it's the longevity thing? It's for- Yeah. Yeah. Behind you, actually called Trinogen. Is that the, like, so it's the longevity thing? It's for, yeah, yeah.

It's behind you actually, called Trunogen. But that wasn't actually, I wasn't, I wasn't, yeah. I've heard of it, I've heard of Trunogen. Yeah, it's a fantastic, basically it's the precursor, which means that you take it and it helps your body produces NAD. But I wasn't bringing it up to promote them. Even I wasn't actually bringing it up

because there's all this research you're talking about infertility. There's just so many people who've said that when they started to take NAD, like either through an IV or through supplements or whatever, it is literally was like the switch that made them be able to, yeah. That's why when you're saying that,

it's a huge, huge, huge thing. Interesting. Yeah. And there's a woman named, she's like called a fertility egg whisperer, a Dr. Amy. I don't remember, but I'm digressing, but yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. So for women out there who are, yeah, NAD, truniogen is like, it's been shown in tons of clinical trials. So yeah. Anyway, that wasn't what we're talking about, but I wanted to just, you were saying acupuncture.

What else is acupuncture in your opinion really good for? So the top three things that Americans go to acupuncture for are mental health, where you put, so whether it's sleep or migraines or just anxiety, you put the needles in the head and you will sleep like a baby. Needles in the head that night will make me sleep so well. Really?

The second thing Americans go to acupuncture for is digestion, so digestive issues. Honestly, all that ice, drinking cold things is not good for your digestive system. That's why I brought my flask of hot water. Even Europeans do not drink stuff with ice. I could not agree with you more. I'm always about room temperature or hot too. Yeah. There's like also Arab, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, system. And if you want to go to the bathroom, do number two in the morning,

the first thing you should do is drink a big glass of hot water when you wake up. So I drink room temperature water with lemon, but maybe I do think it would be even more effective to do hot water. Like that helps your digestive system going. So what I do is I drink hot tea after my hot, my room temperature water.

Yeah, that's good too. That's great. What is the difference? Because I know that you always talk about the, well, not always, but like the water with the hot water and ginger for digestion. What about mint? Isn't mint supposed to be like hot water with mint leaves? Is that not good for digestion? No, yeah, that's good too. Ginger has warming properties. It's particularly good for women. Oh, okay. And so it's also just good to get your energy going. How much ginger are you putting in there? I put three slices. Three thick slices is fine.

You can adjust as much as you want. The only thing is don't take ginger at night because it'll affect your sleep. Because ginger get it actually helps with circulation. So particularly for people who have who get cold easily, who have cold easily, who have cold hands, cold feet, or in the wintertime, the first thing in the morning you have ginger.

And you can have it up to maybe like afternoon, but in the evening, don't have too much ginger, it'll affect your sleep because it gets your metabolism going, right? So- Does it? Yes, ginger does. That's how it warms you up. So this is, you're not even an acupuncturist or a doctor.

This is like the most basic thing that all Chinese people know about foods. TCM, there's a diet therapy and you know each food, whether it's cooling or warming, and exactly what it does to your body. So that's why you walk around with the flask of hot water, which I'm going to now start. That's a great one. And so you're taking the skin off the ginger, correct? No, you don't. I'm lazy.

You can just put it in like that? I mean, you wash it. Well, yeah. Yeah, well, yeah. And then just stick it in. It's easy. So it's great. I mean, ideally, if you're at home,

you could put three slices of ginger in a pot of hot water and you boil it. And that really like, you know, gets the good stuff out. But hey, if I'm like, I'm on the go, right? If I'm staying in a hotel, like I don't have time to do that. So, but the most important thing is the hot water. No, I agree with you. The hot water is like the key, the key, the cold. I don't ever understand people. I have ice with this. I have in the winter, like I just came from New York City. Like, I mean, all this ice water in the winter. I know, I don't understand that.

So then, okay, go back. So you and your girlfriend decided that, you said everything starts with your ovaries. Right, and- I'm coming back to this. In traditional Chinese medicine, you know, your feminine health- I didn't forget about your product, don't worry.

Your feminine health is very important, and even your period is a report card of your health. Are you regular? Do you have blood clots? Heavy or light flow? Are you entering early menopause? Right? That's what you asked me when you walked in here about. You're like, oh, and you're talking about traveling.

Yeah. Like about my menstrual cycle. So if, because I'm pretty on time all the time, but like- That's very good. Is it? What does that mean? You're healthy. Oh, well, that's good. And so if you're, if you're always irregular, what does that mean? You're healthy. Oh, well, that's good. And so if you're always irregular, what does that mean?

You're unhealthy. Then in that case, I mean, if you're always irregular, then you go to a TCM doctor and you figure out why. So then, I was asking you because of this product too. So then why? Yeah. Oh, okay. So what we wanted to do was we wanted to come out with a product that was rooted in traditional Chinese medicine,

which is 2,500 years of history, and that makes me and Annie happy and healthy, and be able to share that with the world through our brand, Anti Vorta, which in Roman mythology means goddess of the future. So we have four SKUs. We have our cleansing gel, which is basically what you use in the shower, right, on your vulva.

We don't believe in douching. Everything is external for the vulva. So we have our cleansing gel. We have our spray in two different sizes. And then we have our intimate wipes, which are individually packaged and biodegradable and flushable. So it's a daily care bundle because we're focused on preventive. We're all about prevention.

And this daily care bundle, it helps you fight odor, irritation and dryness. And is it out in the marketplace? Yes, we just launched in the States two weeks ago on our dot com. Oh, so you're not selling, you're not brick and mortar yet? We don't have our own brick and mortar stores yet. No, no, no, but you're not selling out. Where would it be?

I guess there's no way to put, I guess is it like Goop or where do people buy it? Yeah, no, we would love it. And in fact, before coming here, I literally just like, I went there's no way to put, I guess it's at like Goop or where do people buy it? Yeah, no, we would love it. And in fact, before coming here, I literally just like, I went to some boutique sort of high-end boutique independent retailers or that I felt were aligned with our brand and dropped off pitching sets. Really? Yeah. So how much does this product, what's the price point?

Can I see it? Yeah. So the most expensive item is our cleansing gel, which is our hero product. And that's 33 US dollars. And then our sprays, we have two sizes. So the big at home spray is $29. The pocket spray is $31. So what you spray your vulva?

Yeah. And I know exactly. Yeah, no, totally. You turn it upside down and you, you know, four inches away and you spray your vulva and it the pocket spray is actually a great hit for people who like going to the gym. You know, they go to yoga, have lunch with a girlfriend afterwards, but don't have time to shower. It also works as a great deodorant.

A lot of our customers have been using it under their arms as well. And these are all free of harmful ingredients, all formulated with traditional Chinese medicine, clean, vegan, everything over here. I love it. Who helped you formulate this whole thing? Well, vegan, everything over here. I love it. Who helped you formulate this whole thing? Well, Annie is our chief scientist. She's our CEO, I'm CEO and creative, and then she is our COO, and she's head of product,

she's head of formula. This is like when we travel to the factory, I'm on the plane watching Netflix, I'm looking at her. She's reading research journals about different ingredients. Wow, so who else is doing this now? Is there a lot of competition? We're actually the first intimate wellness brand to be formulated with traditional Chinese medicinal herbs to be to be inspired by TCM.

There are some fem care brands. It's like I remember like when I was a kid, I would see commercials for like summer's eve. Do you remember them? Yes. And the douching company? Yes. And and you know, and they're still around.

They are? They are around. And listen, I would just say whatever you buy, especially for sensitive skin, which is down there, check the ingredients. Oh my God, for sure. I mean, this is what I like. It's like all natural.

I mean, listen. All natural, yeah. This is amazing. Not exactly the end. I mean, is it proper etiquette to talk about feminine hygiene? It's about helping women move through the world with confidence. And you would be surprised that, okay, so there's this book and it's called Everybody Lies and it's written by a Google engineer.

And he says, everybody lies if you ask them face to face, but Google search never lies. Okay. The most Googled body part by men is, you can guess penis size. The most Googled body part by men is, you can guess, penis size. The most Googled body part by women is vaginal odor. Really? I was shocked. Vaginal odor. And young girls who feel crippled by their vaginal odor and feel like, will literally like, I mean, it goes with every age.

That's the number one Googled body part. And it's in a book called Everybody Lies. You can tell sex with Emily that. I will. I'm going to ask her. I'm actually going to ask her out this episode. Wow. That's crazy.

So is that also part of the, when you did like your like market research, if this is going to do, like if this is a viable option, you must have taken that into account. Yeah, I mean, of course, of course. But, you know, for us, I mean, like even what I do with etiquette, I feel that so much of the media today is telling us you shouldn't care, right? You shouldn't care about anti-aging is a bad word now, right? You shouldn't care that you're aging, but we do, right? The media is saying you shouldn't clean your vagina or your vulva, but actually you should. And we do because you know what? We shouldn't do that.

A lot of people say we should not clean it. And a lot of people say that you should just use water, but here's the thing. Back in the day when we walked around buck naked, like okay, but now we're wearing lululemon all day long. We are on Western medication, which messes with our hormones. We're traveling long haul, which also messes with our bodies. Stress, alcohol, all these exercise, all these things will affect your microflora and your pH levels. Yeah, totally.

Makes sense. So you should and your pH levels. Yeah, totally. Makes sense. So you should clean your vulva. Are you saying vulva because it's a less- No, vulva is the external. The vagina is internal. We don't promote douching. Right, so you don't promote douching. That's why you keep on saying-

People refer to whole areas vagina, but actually- But those wipes, don't you wipe everything? Yeah, but you can't go up into a vagina. I guess you can't go up into a vagina. I guess you can't go up into a vagina. Oh my god, I guess. Oh my gosh, this is fun. This is not where I thought the conversation was going with the manners expert. Okay. Like this was like the antithesis of what I thought we're going to be talking about. Oh my gosh. I love it. Okay. well, I mean, I have one other area

I want to talk to you about. One question, well, not really one, but you're big into Feng Shui and I want to know about it. Yes. And because we're talking about vaginas and vulvas, I didn't even ask you about that. Can you talk about that? Yeah. Well, so for example, you know, your office is set up here. You need to help me. The good thing is that your back is against a wall and you are facing out onto the room

and to the window because the wall is what we call a khao shan. Khao is support, shan is mountain. And when you sit, you want a wall behind you because that's your supporting mountain that protects you. The worst is to have your desk up against the wall where you're facing the wall, right? And if you're facing the wall, it's like you have, it inhibits growth because it's, I mean, you're looking at a wall. And then you're back, you're defenseless because your back is to the room, your back is to the window. Now, one thing I would say,

instead of a glass table, you should have a wood table because glass is transparent. It's not solid enough if it's a working table. Wood or just something that's like, you know, that's not transparent. Why? Because what would it be? Would be best. So it's, I mean, glass, like you want your work desk to be a place of security and of productivity and wealth, right? Bringing in money. Right. And in fact, we say the best work desk is something that even covers over the side so

that when somebody, when you're sitting at it, people can't see your legs. Really? Like, let me make more money if I have a wooden table that does not show my legs? Well, you'll have to test it out and let me know. Wow. Okay. Does it count that the two pieces are wood, that the glass is on top of? Yeah. Well, this is the most important piece.

That's the most important. Okay, can you give me some other main things about Feng Shui? Because like this room is like a smorgasbord because I was in the middle of designing it and then I stopped. Like this was my husband's mom's that they left here and I'm trying to get rid of it, but it's comfortable. So I keep it because I actually like to sit in it, but it's the most ungodly looking thing in the entire world. It's a lazy boy everybody. They're so ugly, but they're so comfortable.

Okay. In this room, I would say your TV is too high and that shelf is a bit high and it creates pressure, especially if you were sitting down. Yeah. I never watch it, but what do you mean? But it's just the placement of it. It's like looming over you. So what does that mean? It creates pressure. So it's like added burden. So what is, but can you explain what that means in like my term?

Okay, yes, yes, yes. So, so I have a TV, but I'm not really using it. So what does it do when I'm in here? Oh, if you're not using it? Um, well, I mean, yeah. I use it when I'm in my little portable sauna. I'll sit back here and watch TV. Well, that's fine.

But just in terms of like, I mean, you want to be in the power position, right? So when you're sitting at your desk, you ideally are the highest thing. Like yeah, yeah, I got you. So you have this TV, like just look at a TV right now. Don't you feel it's like looming over you and about to fall on you? Not until you said it, but okay. And it's so much higher than you. Yeah.

That it creates like, like I, ideally you could maybe put this on the lower shelf, maybe half the height. And okay, and that, but I guess my question about Feng Shui is, what is Feng Shui in the real term? How does it matter in your life? Like other than just aesthetics? Okay, so that doesn't... I hate the couch. I don't like this.

This glass maybe should be wood because it represents more money. But in the grand scheme, what is the purpose of it? So Feng means wind, Shui means water. So Feng Shui is wind, water. Okay. Every Feng Shui master, if let's say you want to stop arranging the Feng Shui in your house, the first thing they do is they find out your birthday. So your date of birth and your time of birth.

Because a lot of it is very customized. And let's say like your home, you have you, your husband and your children, then usually you provide all the birth dates to them while they're like, you know, calculating which spaces are what. But this room, for example, is just you. So it's just more about you. Function can be applied to your, it can help your love life, your career. It's about maximizing.

It's about making the good things better and making the bad things like minimizing the negative effects, basically. So it's about arranging your furniture in a way that feels comfortable. If something is good Feng Shui, it will feel good. Because again, this is the chi, this is the energy. And so people usually go to a Feng Shui master when something bad happens in their life. Find out their partner's cheating. Maybe they just got divorced or break up. Something just got fired, maybe. Something not going well at work, a deal just fell through.

That's usually when people will turn to feng shui because something happened and they need help. And then usually we do feng shui. Feng shui is only, like feng shui generally speaking, so for example, the placement of your desk, you want it to be in a good position where you feel safe, you feel strong, you feel powerful, right? These things are evergreen. But if you want to go to the detail of, okay, put a, um, you need water in this corner so

you have like some moving fish tank, or you want to put red curtains here, blah, blah, blah, that Feng Shui lasts only 12 months from Chinese New Year in January, February to Chinese New Year the next year. So usually every year because you know it's a different year like you're of the ox, you're of the tiger, you're of the rabbit, right? Right now it's year of the dragon. And so based on each year, details of the Feng Shui changes, but the general Feng Shui of like, okay, the placement feels good.

Generally that's evergreen. That is interesting. I felt like also it gives a room a certain feel. Like you walk into a room and feel if it's a good feeling, a bad feeling. Absolutely. Like I'll walk into your home and I'll know like, okay, you know, this is, this is a jagged edge or this feels blocked. I mean, but also that's like, what did you feel when you walked in here?

Well, I mean, here, everything's been pushed aside in order to do the podcast. Yeah. Right. So I haven't seen it when it normally is, but yeah, I mean, it everything's been pushed aside in order to do the podcast. Yeah, yeah. Right? So I haven't seen it when it normally is, but you know, I mean, it feels cozy. It feels bustling, maybe a little bit. Yeah. I like the...

The main thing for me is that the TV is too high. You didn't notice the ugly couch behind you? Yeah, but I mean, you know... It does? Okay. Well, that's good. I mean... Feng Shui isn't about like the aesthetics. It's? Okay, well, that's good. I mean... Feng Shui isn't about like the aesthetics.

It's not about the aesthetics. It's not about like, oh, like, you know, it's about the feeling of everything, the harmony of everything together. So for example, let's say avoid sharp corners. If you want harmony in the family, then go for rounded corners for let's say your dining table or it can be a rounded corner, it could be a round table, right? So interesting. If you want to do Feng Shui, let's say you're single,

then make sure that you, you can put some pink in your room that attracts, that's like peach blossom color that attracts love. And then you wanna have everything in your bedroom be symmetrical. So if you're single and you're looking for a relationship, the last thing you should have is a single bed. You should have a double bed, which invites space for somebody into your life.

You should not have your bed pushed up against a wall. You should have space on both sides for somebody to enter. You should not have just one nightstand. You should have a pair of nightstands. Right? Again, symmetrical. So kind of act as if. Yeah. I love that. You don't want your closet to

be totally like completely packed. You want to leave a little bit of space for somebody else to put their clothes in. Are there three key rules of Feng Shui? I can give you three key rules of Feng Shui. Sure, do that and we'll wrap it up because God knows it's been forever. I afford you. Let's see, three, one of some three good rules. Well, so I'd say rule one, rounded corners are preferred over sharp corners. That's one thing. Although it's actually okay for a work desk to have sharp corners. Okay. Good.

Rule number two, no disturbing art in the house. And I say this in my Netflix show, because you don't want to bring that energy into the home. Yeah. Number three, never put the bones or ashes of a loved one or a pet inside the home, because it turns the house into a graveyard. It gives it too much energy. You'd be surprised at how many Westerners do that. You would be shocked.

One of my students in my Netflix show did that. First of all, she like burrowed all the dead fish in their garden. And then when I said, that's a big no-no, a day later she was like, you know how you said that was a big no-no? I have a question. I have my dad's ashes in my bedroom. And I was like, oh my God.

I was like, can we turn the cameras on right now? I was like, oh my God, did you guys catch this? That's, yeah, that's not, no, no, no. I agree with that. That's okay. Okay. I have all these other questions, but maybe you can just come back because I have so many things I didn't ask you, like practicing non-sexual flirting. Yeah, that's fun. By the way, I have about like 10 minutes left. Is that okay? No, no. I have another one too. Yeah. I have a podcast too. That's one thing.

By the way, I have like another person coming. So that's, I feel like we got sidetracked. It's been so fun. Yeah, it's been so fun. I wanted to talk to you about, let me just pick one more thing. Well, I know we didn't talk about, but I said it to you before, I love the 20 second rule or the 40 second rule.

Please talk about that. Yeah. Because I think this can be a game changer for a lot of people. No, I'm serious. Do you have some people you want to name and shame? Yeah, I feel bad shaming them because sometimes you just are like, are like just completely oblivious. It's usually men, by the way. A lot of men are very oblivious to this, but I think it can save a lot of relationships and just overall like communication if people listen to this. This is a really great one guys. Listen to this. I like to think of dialogue as

traffic lights. So if you're speaking, if you stay within 20 seconds, green light, you're in the clear. If you're approaching 40 seconds orange light, like you're edging on boring. And if you've gone over 40 seconds red light, you're officially self-obsessed. I love that. The only issue I have is what if you're telling a story? Oh, that's different. That's different. I'm talking about like a conversation. I'm not talking about if you're up on the podium giving a speech or if you're telling a story, which requires

No, but I think a lot of times people drone on and on about the stories and they have no awareness that it's boring for people. So then I guess my question is, when do you know, like, yeah, if you're doing it, if you're on a podium giving a speech, of course you're going to be longer than 20 seconds or 40 seconds. But when you are just in in 20 seconds or 40 seconds. But when you are just in a conversation at dinner or a dinner party, are you allowed to go past 20 seconds? If someone asks you a question, 20 seconds is really short. Yeah, well, if somebody's asking you a question

which requires a lengthy answer, then you just have to be the judge of that, right? You have to be the judge of that. And also usually, like, that's why I think it's important to get out there and go to as many social functions as possible and to meet different people. What I love about the 20 second or 40 second rule

when speaking to somebody is more than just it being 20 seconds on the dot or 40 seconds on the dot, it makes you think and be kind of you're being conscientious of how long you're talking about yourself. That to me is the importance of it versus just like, you know, droning on and on and on without any idea that there should be like a beginning and start, you know, beginning, middle and end time that should be concise. Because otherwise people will just go on and on and it could be three minutes and you're sitting there and you're like, holy shit, this person is just talking forever. So just be mindful.

I think it just makes me. Yes, it's true. It's less about counting the seconds and more about like, okay, like I know I should be mindful. And for me, if I'm ever on the receiving end of somebody who just keeps stroaning on, on, on, what I like to do is I'm already thinking, cause I have a shorter tension span and I'm already thinking like, how do I get out of here? And if there's other people nearby, I'll just introduce them to somebody else, which yeah, some people would be like, that is so immoral of you to push this person onto another person, but it's like, I'm not claiming to be Miss

Goody Two Shoes. Right. And I'm not teaching morals. Miss Goody Two Shoes. Right. So I'm not teaching morals. I'm Miss Manners with a touch of Machiavelli. I love that. So that is exactly it. So you're Manners with a touch of Machiavelli. Cause I agree with you.

I don't think it's rude. What I think is actually you're being very conscientious of the other person's feelings. You don't want to be rude and just walk away with not giving them another person to talk to. You're actually finding a replacement so you can get the hell out of there, which is what I do on a regular basis. And I've mastered this. By the way, now after talking to you, I think I should be writing a manners book. I think a lot of this is just like having a lot of

social experience and putting it in a book and telling somebody, you know, these are like some rules that you should abide by and it will make your life a lot easier to kind of navigate really. But you do it much better and you do it in a much more eloquent way than I would ever be able to. And like I said, I love the book. Guys, the book is called Mind Your Manners. I'm going to let her get out of here. She's the subtitle. We get the subtitle, How to Be Your Best Self in Any Situation. How to Be Your Best Self in Any Situation by Sarah Jane Ho. She's the same lady that has the Netflix show by the same name, Mind Your Manners. And like I said, you guys can just like peruse the book in one section, put it down. You've got dating in there, you have table manners, you have work situations, how to like properly respond

to an email on time. By the way, how long, what's an appropriate amount of time? To respond to an email? Ideally by end of day, but long as 24 hours work wise. Oh, work wise, work wise, actually there's data that suggests people need expect a response within an hour, but at minimum end of day. Yeah, I still even think that's a lot. But anyway, Sarah, where can people find more of you?

Are you on social media? Yes, my Instagram is Sarah Jane Ho. And yeah, check out my Netflix show. And watch the Netflix show, guys. I watched a couple episodes. It was cute. You're very good on it. I really are.

Thank you so much for being on the show and good luck with the book. Thank you and thank you for having me. Absolutely. And good luck with your intimate care female products. Auntie Orta. Yeah, everybody should. Everybody with a vulva, she get one. Everybody who knows somebody with a vulva can get them one. And I will definitely, I'll try it and post it and... Great. Thank you.

Thank you. Bye, everybody. Bye everybody. Bye.