Habits and Hustle - Episode 74: Gretchen Rubin – 3x Best Selling Author on Habits, Happiness, and Human Nature & Host of the Happier Podcast

Episode Date: July 28, 2020

Gretchen Rubin is a 3x Best Seller Author on Habits, Happiness, and Human Nature & Host of Happier Podcast. She sits down with Jen in this episode to challenge our notion of what habits are and how useful they really can be. From her work “The Four Tendencies” and “The Happiness Project” along with a full career now in studying human nature Gretchen is well qualified to tell you maybe “you just are what you are and you have to find something that work for you, specifically.” Expressing the importance of the individual, the importance of envy, and the importance of achieving “happier” instead of seeking “happiness” Gretchen takes you out of your own head to see how and who you are. Having trouble building and forming habits? Goals used to be easier, but somewhere along the way, something changed? This episode might just open you up to what might really be going on and leave you Better Than Before. Youtube Link to This Episode Gretchen’s Website Gretchen’s Instagram ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vitamin Water Zero Sugar just dropped in all new taste. It was zero holding back on flavor. You can be your all feeling. I'll play and all self-care you. Grab the all new taste today. Vitamin Water Zero Sugar. Nourish every you. Vitamin Water is a registered trademark of glassso. Welcome to the Habits and Hustle Podcast. A podcast that uncovers the rituals, unspoken habits and mindsets of extraordinary people. A podcast powered by Habit Nest. Now here's your host, Jennifer Cohen. I have to tell you, I am a, I'm a mask like a huge fan of yours. So, oh, thank you. I, I really, I love all of your books and that's why like I was putting together all these

questions and I was like, oh my gosh, there's no way that I can fit all of this stuff into one podcast because between the happiness project, your four tendencies, you know, better than before. I mean, like each one of those deserves its own big time frame. Oh, you're so nice. No, it's you. It's absolutely true. So that's why it's like a big, big, and also the other book about the clutter.

Because it's like, now, basically, I'm living that person right now because everything is a whole large mess of questions from a little bit from here, a little bit there. So needless to say, I'm living that person right now because everything is a whole large mess of questions from a little bit from here a little bit there. So needless to say, I'm very happy to have you on the podcast today. Oh, wonderful. Yes. So thank you for coming over here. And you, you continue yourself. You basically are a human nature habits happiness expert, right?

Who basically was a lawyer, you went to Yale, and then you pursued your passion to become a writer, and things obviously worked out very well for you. Yeah, they did, that was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. So I guess my first question is, what is the importance of habits for happiness overall? Well, habits are the invisible architecture of everyday life.

And if we have habits that work for us, we're a lot more likely to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative. And research shows that at least 40% maybe more of everyday life is made up of habits. And so they play a big role. Now, I will say that one of the things that I learned in writing my book better than before is that like, well, I love habits and welcome habits and I'm always trying to like make other new things

into habits because I find them so freeing. Some people don't like habits and that's fine too. Some people really do prefer to be more spontaneous and not have things locked in in the same way. Kind of do what they want to do. And they need to find their own way to create those good behaviors. But habits can really free us from having to use self-control or use well power and decision fatigue.

So they really are a very useful tool if you're trying to make your life happier. I mean, I think so. I mean, given the name of the podcast, and it's in hustle, right? I feel that sometimes the more things you put on autopilot, it eliminates that, it gives you that extra time to focus on things that are more meaningful or can kind of like progress your life a little bit further,

right? I had a percent agree, but I did my four tendencies, personally, framework, where I divided people into four tendencies. And what I found is like, one of one of the tendencies the rebel tendency they just don't have they often don't have as the Positive association with habits they don't think of them as being freeing in the same way and so I used to be much more like Confident and saying like habits are great and I'm like now I'm much more like habits are great if you like habits like habits are great. And I'm like, now I'm much more like habits are great if you like habits.

But even if you don't like habits, you can still find a way to exercise. You can still find a way to write a novel in your free time. You may not, you may think about it. You may set it up in a slightly different way. Habits are not a universal tool, but they're a very, very powerful and common tool. I think that's, I want to get into the four tendencies.

I think it was, it's actually very interesting because I do feel, because you put like like it's four archetypes, right? And I think what with me I It's when I took your quiz and everyone should keep his quiz It said I was I was the oblong and a blider type, but I never thought myself as that I felt like I was more like a rebel type and there are ways you morph them together. But just to say, and I want to talk to you about that, but what you were saying about habits and how sometimes people, like you said, maybe a rebel in the four tendencies wouldn't feel that habits are a way to kind of like make their life happier.

And I had a guy on my podcast yesterday actually who's extremely successful, seems Jesse at Flore and he was actually talking about how habits for him could get into a rut and how you don't really sometimes are able to change because it becomes so fixated in what you do day-to-day routine. So it's interesting like I'm with you like I used to feel like you have to have a very structured day to have success, but I mean, you talk with almost all of your books that it's about knowing who you are, knowing yourself, right? Right.

Right. And it's very important because if you're not that type of personality, it could be very hindering, right? Yeah. Right. I think the problem comes as when we think, well, there's a right way, there's a best way. If I can't do it that way, there must be something wrong with me. I don't have any self control I have no willpower. I'm not a real grown up. I don't have any self-esteem. I can't take time for myself

What does this mean or you know, so I kind of blame myself or just the opposite? I say well, what's wrong with you if I can do it and you can't well you lack self control you lack willpower You can't keep your promises to yourself, you need to change. And what I found is like, there's a lot of ways to achieve our aims. And like, we all might want to achieve a goal, like exercising or like, you know, being productive creatively or something. There's a lot of ways to get there. And so it's more useful to think about like, well, what works for me, what appeals to me? When do I succeed? And if I'm not succeeding, what are some other things I could try?

Rather than saying, I need to jam myself into someone else's mold, because if it works for them, then obviously it should work for me. It's just like getting up early. Research shows there are some people are mourning people and some people are night people. It's largely genetically determined and a function of age. And so the idea that somebody would say confidently, if something's important to you, you should get up and do it first thing,

before work every day. It's like, well, that's great advice for me because I'm a morning person. Right. I absolutely follow that advice. But that's not a good advice for everybody because the night people are at the most productive and creative and energetic later in the day.

And if they try to do it first thing in the day, they're setting themselves up for failure. It's not that it's bad advice. It's just that it's not good advice for everyone. And so you have to say to yourself, not like, does this make sense on paper? Because on paper, it makes total sense, right? Right.

And to yourself, like, am I the kind of person who succeeds if I try to like do something important or intellectually taxing or physically taxing early in the morning? If you're like, heck no, I can barely get to work on time and I really don't really wake up until 10.30, then okay no, going for a three mile run first thing in the morning is not gonna work for you.

So I think exactly as you say, it's really a question of saying, what's true for me and how do I bring circumstances into line with what works for me rather than trying to come up with like the best way or the right way or the most efficient way because it's so you can't really generalize. But you know what? I do find that when people have a structure and I guess because I'm that person right so of course I'm going to be very much I'm going to resonate with this kind of belief system is that it does, like when I exercise every day,

it does eliminate that, I'm like, you know, oh my God, I'm not, when am I gonna exercise? How am I gonna exercise? All that, you know, neurosis that go on, and all some Jewish, maybe that's another part of it. And, or, and, or, it also does, like there are like things that research proves that when you do exercise first thing in the

morning and when you eat the same breakfast, so when you do certain things, it does give you more focus. There are benefits to... Sure, if you do it. Right. It's like what's better than the exercise you do or the perfect exercise you never do because you can't get up that early. Absolutely. And the thing is, the name of your podcast is habits and hustles. So clearly, that's where you're coming from and that's where your audience is coming from. So maybe you don't really need to think about the people for whom habits are not enticing

because they're not interested in this. And so you can really say, for people who are deeply interested in habits, like you and me and so many other people, let's take advantage of them because they're so freeing and they give us so much power and relieve us from so much stress and mental fatigue. But that's very different from saying, well, they're universally good and everybody would be better off if they did it because the thing is like a rebel, I've spoken to so many rebels and they do

better when they're like, you know, I exercise when I feel like it and I, you know, I know bunch of classes and I keep my yoga mat, my running shoes in my car, and like, some days I feel like going inside, and some days I feel like skipping, and sometimes I feel like doing a really hard cardio workout, I'm like, that wouldn't work for me. I need to have like a plan, I need to have a schedule, but okay, we can do it differently, like that's fine. We can both get regular exercise,

but we don't have to convince each other to try it a different way. Because I think a lot of times people do waste a lot of energy just talking about making an intellectual argument about what's best. What's best is what works for a particular person. It doesn't really matter what's best for 87.6% of the population, because if you're the other part, you want to know what's going to work for you.

I mean, in that case, it cracks me up with the habit research, whenever you read if you're the other part, you want to know what's going to work for you. I mean, in the next foot, cracks me up with the habit research, whatever you read it, they're always like, and then there's a small group of people who don't really see the four-half. And I'm like, yeah, what do you do about those people? Because they need to take blood pressure medication too. You can't remove them. What's going on with those folks?

So anyway, so with the four-tenants, you're going to work for everybody. Because I saw these, and I'm sure you've experienced this too, these very distinct patterns and how people come to the idea, even the idea of habits, a little on how to form them. And so that's what led me to the four tendencies. Because I thought, well, everybody would feel the way I do, obviously. Right. You feel the way I do. We agree.

I'm not saying that. That's 100% true. And also, another point that you made was because of the podcast being called what it is, obviously the people listening, not as a maybe not everybody, but are kind of already interested in curious habits and how to do it. So that becomes like my lane. Yeah, and that's great because that's a big lane. For most people, I think habits do, because in my frame, a pollers, questioners and obligers all tend to take advantage of habits.

And even Rebels sometimes take care of habits. So it's a very enticing. There's a big promise there. But it's not everyone. We're just fine because nothing's for everyone. When it comes to habits, or how to make all of that there. I mean, here's an example.

So with habits, healthy habits, one of the strategies, better than before, I have 21 strategies that we can use to make our breaker habits. And some work for some people and not for others and some are available to us at some times, but not at other times. So one of the strategies that works really well for some people and not at all for others

to be very curious to know which side of this you're on is when you're facing a strong temptation, not a weak temptation, but a strong temptation. So for instance, I've been incredible sweet tooth. And I'm an abstainer. I use the strategy of abstaining. And that is, with somebody like me, it's easier to have none than it is to have a little bit.

So I can have one thin, I can have no thin mint cookies or I can have like a sleeve of thin mint cookies. I can't have one thin mint cookie. I can't have half a dish of ice cream. But then there are people who are moderators. And moderators do better when they have something sometimes. So they have a little bit. And they follow the 80-20 rule.

And these are the people who are like, I just keep a bar of fine chocolate in my desk drawer. And every day or two, I have one little square. And that's all I need. Why don't you do the same thing? And I say, because I can't. It's easy for me to have none, but I can't have a little. It's too hard for me to have a little. And again, people say you're doing it wrong. So

moderators tell an abstainer like me, you shouldn't demonize certain food, you shouldn't be so rigid, you should learn how to just like have a little have a have a cookie now and then. And I say to moderators, why do you keep breaking your promises to yourself? Why don't you just go code turkey? You're always finding these loopholes. Why don't you just be done with it? And they're like, I don't want to. And so, and often I think people will say, well, I should be a moderator, or I should be an abstainer.

In fact, it's like some people are abstainers and some people are moderators. If one way isn't working for you, maybe try the other way. I think a lot of people think that abstaining sounds really hard, but actually if you're really an abstainer in your heart, it's much easier to abstain than it is. I can't, demonetize. It's too hard, but I can abstain. I eat a crazy low carb diet. I abstain from so much.

It doesn't take anything to your point about the decision fatigue and the friction that comes. It's so easy. I don't eat that stuff. There's no temptation. I couldn't agree with you more. It's funny because I know the popular answer and being in the health and fitness space like I am, people always ask you that. You're like, oh, yeah, it's the 80-20 rule. Just eat it a little bit so you don't deprive yourself. But to me, that such plattitude, it doesn't work. If people say it can sound good, but to me that such, that such, um, such a platter to do, you know, like it's like, doesn't work.

I mean, if you people say it can sound good, but it works for some people, though, for some people, it's really important. It's really good. And I think dietitians and nutritionists tend to be moderators. So that's why they're convinced it works because it works for them. But it doesn't work for me. I'm like you. I have a standard, but it's a standard. It's absolutely because I know I can't go to a buffet because I know is much as I... You're in here, right?

Yes. Okay. You don't order at the menu. Never order from the buffet. That's my number one rule. Always order off the menu because I know myself to your point that I cannot just take a little bit. That's just not my personality type.

And I set myself up for failure every time I think this time I can do it. And so I think that's a really good point. So first of all, the fact that you put kind of not just clarity, but you put that out there like that I think is very important because then people end up feeling really bad about themselves when they're not fitting into what the general population or what they think that they should be fitting into. So let's talk about two things. Let's first go over in your foretendencies, the four different types of people or personality types that people can follow into, and then we can go more into habits after that.

Yeah, because it tells you a lot about how to set yourself up for habits. So this is my framework called the Four Tenancies, and it divides people into four categories, a poll derives, questioners, obligers, and rebels, which we were talking about. And I'm going to briefly describe it, and most people know what they are, and a lot of people, and the characters on Game of Thrones.

And you know, they're not hard to spot once you know them. But there is a quiz online, it's at quiz.gruchinroben.com. If people want to take like a quick frequent, I think 2.8 million people have taken this free quiz now so it's very easy. So what the four tendencies looks at is how you respond to expectations and we all face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations which is like a work deadline or a request from a friend and then there are indirect expectations like my own desire to keep an ears resolution, my own desire to get back into meditation.

So depending on how we respond to outer and inner expectations, that's what makes us an appolder, a questioner, and a blighter or rebel. And you can see what this is really important with habits, because habits are either an outer expectation or an inner expectation. So appolders readily meet outer and the inner expectations. They meet a work deadline. They keep an ears resolution without much fuss. They want to know what others expect from them,

but their expectations for themselves are just as important. So their motto is discipline is my freedom. Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they resist anything arbitrary, ineffective, unjustified. They always want the research, they always want the data, they always want to know why.

And if something meets their inner standard, if they think, okay, this makes sense, they will do it no problem. If it fails their inner standard, they will push back. So their motto is, all comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers. Obligers readily meet out our expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And I got my first insight into this tendency.

When a friend said, I don't understand it. I know I'm happier when I exercise. And when I was in high school, I was on the track team. And I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now? Well, when she had a team and a coach, expecting her to show up, she showed up no problem, but when she's trying to go on her own, she struggles. And the key thing for obligers to remember

is that if they want to meet an inner expectation, they must create some form of outer accountability. Do you want to read more? Join a book group. If you want to exercise more, take a class where they charge you, work out with a friend who's going to be annoyed if you don't show up, take your dog for run, who's going to tear up the living room furniture, if he doesn't get his exercise, raise money for a charity, think of your duty or future self, there's a million ways to create other accountability and a blighters must have it. So their motto is you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, Rebels, which you were talking about before, Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike.

They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they choose to do, anything they want to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically, they don't like to tell themselves what to do. Like they won't say, well, I'm going to sign up

for a 10 a.m. spin class on Saturday, because they, I don't know what I'm gonna want to do on Saturday. And just the idea that somebody's expecting me to show up, bugs me. So their motto is, you can't make me, and neither can I. Right. And the thing is, your tendency, the blighter tendency, that is the biggest tendency for both men and women. You either aren't obligatory, and many of blighters, you're like big, big tendency. The smallest tendency is rebel. So it's conspicuous tendency, but that is the smallest tendency. What's the percentage of obligers of the population? It's not 41% or something.

Wow, 41%. And then you can have these, you can also be combinations, right? Because like I said, I feel like some of it, I with the rebel like I don't like I don't like authority really. I don't think people tell me what to do, but yeah, if I do have an expectation or someone has an expectation of me, I will I will always do it. So when when is it actually how often are there a lot of like hybrids. Do people have hybrids? I think that people are really solidly within a tendency of really are in one tendency, but as you point out, each of the tendencies overlaps with two tendencies because it is something in common. So like let's say you're in a blighter, say,

okay, so a blighter's also have an affinity with a pollters because they both readily meet outer expectations so they have that in common. But a blighter's also are like rebels in that they don't meet outer expectations, so they have nothing common. But obligers also are like rebels in that they don't meet inner expectations. And so in that sense, they have a deep affinity with rebels. So some obligers tip more to a folder. So like, I have a podcast, tap here with Gretchen Rubin. My co-host is my sister, and she's an obliger who tips to a folder. But you may be an obliger who tips to rebel. And that means the kind of the rebel side of you is kind of flavors, you're a bliger-ness, you're in a blitzer, but you

kind of are like a little bit more on that rebel end of things. And this is true with all four. So like, I'm in a holder who tips to question her, but I know I have a good friend who's in a holder who tips to a blitzer. And so it kind of, it gives a different flavor to the tendencies, but I think people really are solidly within the tendencies. It's been one of the tendencies, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't be thinking about it, it's an oppressor. And I think about what my husband would be and what my friends would be. Like, I think that's very true, right?

Because we have one dominant portion. Keep coming back, you got plenty of space. Oof, not how you would have done that. You like working with people you can rely on, like USAA, who has helped guide the military community for the past 100 years. USAA, get a quote today. Vitamin water just dropped a new zero-sugar flavor

called with love. Get the taste of raspberry and dark chocolate for the all-warm, all fuzzy, all self-care, zero self-doubt you. Grab a with love today. Vitamin water, zero sugar, nourish every you. Vitamin water is a registered trademark of glass O. So then of those four, so like, if I were to say, like, what's that, when you're trying to form a habit, right, what is it, what do you need to have? Because some, so like, an obliger who was like, you're saying, needs that accountability, like myself, what is the

mo, how does, what's the easiest way or the best way to actually form a habit in that, in these tendencies or that tendency? Well, if you're, so there's the 21 strategies of habit change, which some are kind of universal and some are better for different tendencies than the other. But if you're going to talk about the tendencies, absolutely for a bliger, if they're trying to form habits, what they really need is out of accountability.

And so a couple of things to keep in mind, if you're an obligator who's trying to form accountability, because I imagine a lot of your listeners are in that situation, because I can imagine that they would be drawn to your subject. So you want to think about that or accountability, but you also want to recognize that a blider is very dramatically and what kind of accountability works for them. And so something that is an accountability, just may not work for you in which case you need to try something else. So for instance, some of the bliders can feel obligated to their future selves. Gretchen right now doesn't want to do this, but future Gretchen will be just so disappointed.

I have to do it for future Gretchen. Or maybe my duty to be a role model for someone else would work for me. Or maybe I pay for a class. But then I talk to a blighter who's like, oh, I signed up for a class with a trainer, but then I realized, if I don't go, he still gets paid and he gets the time back.

So she wasn't going to help him out. It's like this is not working for you as an accountability measure And another thing that I would say for obligators is that Typically sweethearts and spouses do not make good accountability partners for a very sweet reason Your your sweetheart is as close to you You're like you're as close to me as I am to me and I would ignore me and I'm gonna ignore you And so often people will be very upset with an obliterate, like a woman said to me,

for years I've been telling my husband, he had to get his weight under control, he had to start exercising, had to go to the doctor and he just ignored me. One day his boss is like, hey, Bob, you got to get in shape. I want you to go to the doctor and doctor in the next day, he started and she's like, he doesn't care what I think. And I'm like, no, no, no, you're an inner expectation. The boss is an outer expectation. So he's hearing what the boss says it doesn't have anything to do with his love for you. It's just that in a way his love for you is making is meaning that that message isn't getting across. Some people can be accountable to their children.

I've heard of how it's important also for providers to remember they often need to be accountable for things they want to do. Just the idea that you want to get a massage or you love to do yoga, if you're not doing it, you probably need that accountability. And I heard of this hilarious brilliant idea of these two sisters in law. They both wanted to get back into yoga and they both love massage. So the way they set it up is if I do 30 days of yoga, you get a massage. If you do 30 days of yoga, I get a massage. So I have to do the yoga. So you get your massage because I'm not going to let my sister in law down.

I would let myself down. But I get the yoga and you get the massage, win, win, win, win. So there's all these clever ways to set up out of accountability. Once you realize that that's what's necessary, unfortunately, obligers often say things like, I need to put myself first, I need to draw boundaries, I need to take more time for self-care, I need to get motivated, I need to keep my promises to myself. Now, you need out of accountability. That's the quick and easy solution it works. All the other stuff, it's not really relevant. It's searching for an explanation for this pattern, which is, why do I keep my promises to other people, but I don't keep my promises to myself?

The solution for that is that our accountability. Then a blighter is going to achieve whatever it is that they want to achieve. What I like about this is, it's very simple, right? Whoever you need to work with, I think especially when it comes to, like, we're obviously for professional and personal relationships, because we tend to deal with people based on what we would do. Like we're talking about it early, right? Yes. Right. And you can get, you don't get very far away that way, right? Like that it's, it's, it's so hard not to do that. It just comes very hard. It's very hard. It's very,

that's why I think sometimes like a can help, because it kind of can draw an outline around behavior that otherwise you don't really see distinctly. And so you don't understand how people are different. If you're like, I don't even understand what's going on here. But then once there's a word for it, you're like, oh, I got it. You're this on that. You're an abundance lover. I'm a simplicity lover.

That's why my desk is clean and your desk is full of piles. And you like it that way. Well, yeah, when you simplify it for people, it's like that, remember that book, the five-level language? No, I love the five-level language, it does. And it makes it, it kind of simplifies things, right? For people to kind of understand what box

that that other person fits in to kind of communicate better. And it actually does make a difference, right? Because people think and our brains are not all computed the same way. Well, I like about, I mean, obviously I'm biased for some for a Tennessee system. Yeah, I did. But what I like about it is it kind of has,

it tells you what to try, what to do next. I feel like a lot of personality frameworks are like, you're creative and innovative. And I'm like, okay, so what? The thing about the four tendencies is it's like, if you're a questioner, you need to look for the data, you need to look for the research, you have to find an authority, you really trust and believe in. And if you're having trouble sticking to a diet, it's probably because really in your heart of hearts, you haven't decided what you think is the most efficient, the most justified,

the best possible research science-based data. If you get clear in your head what that is, your action will follow. That's what I would say to a questioner. But to an obligator, I'd be like, where's your accountability? Are you going to use this app or are you going to use nutritionists? Are you going to use a health coach or are you going to make a deal with your sister and law? What are you going to do?

Rebel, I'd be like, it's your identity. This is who you are. You love to cook fresh are. You love to cook fresh food. You love to go to farmers markets. You love fresh vegetables. You love to, you love interesting cuisine and you're free. You're not trapped. You're not addicted to sugar and ultra-process foods. They don't control you with their fancy packages and their expensive campaigns because you make your own choices because you're free and you know what's, because you make your own choices, because you're free, and you know what's right for you and your body.

And people are like, yes, that's right, that is who I am, that is what works for a rebel. A holder is like, I think I'm in a quitshigger, and I just like the next day, I'm like, okay, I'm just, that's over. You know what, what I love,

I also think this would be a great tool for people in the sales business, people who do sales, right? Because you could read your person so much quicker, because again, that way you're not wasting a lot of time and the news and dealing with your own, like, when I said how I would do it and said, I would just, like, because you can usually read somebody based on that and then tailor your sales approach, really. So it's a great business tool.

Yeah. Well, because one of the ways this comes up as questioners feel like the more kind of arguments and data they provide, the more they will persuade people. But often, people who aren't questioners get very overwhelmed and kind of annoyed by that. And so if you're a questioner, and you feel yourself being like, here's this, here's this.

And you're like, OK, maybe I need to back off because that person might, this might not be working. And it might actually be irritating them. Whereas if you're talking to a question, you're like, oh, I'm gonna just like, here's a consumer report and here's the this and here, you know, and give them that research. Yeah, right, exactly right.

You know what I think is great about your books and what you do, everything dub tails nicely together, right? It does. At the end of the day, it's all about like an overarching idea of being happy and being successful and happy. And like this is knowing your personality, you know, what's important. Like basically, like I was really, I was watching something on like success rules that you did.

I don't know if it was an Oprah thing I watched or some other thing I was doing. And I found that to be, it's very, um, one of its kind of common sense, but as my mom would say, common sense isn't very common, right? So that's a great line. I have heard that. Yes. And it's true. Yes. Right? Like, what are the first points was, again, like, to know yourself, right? Like, yeah, duh, because we're not all the same, but people need to be told these things. And the other one that you would say is, do what you love, right? And then you gave this app, then you kind of followed it up with, because people say, okay, do what I love, okay?

I love taking my dog for a walk. But what you did was you said, a great way to know what you love is to look at who you envy in the world. That was so smart because that's so true, right? Because I think we all have something, and envy is a very human nature quality, right? We all have it. So, people who say they don't have it, they're lying, right?

But can you talk a little bit more about that? Because it's your experience with how what happened with you and, well, I'll let you continue. Yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, envy is, it's sort of an unpleasant and kind of dark emotion. And we don't like to feel it, we don't like to acknowledge it, we often don't like to admit to it. As you say, it's sort of like, it's very unattractive.

Right. But it's a very helpful emotion. And it's really important to remember that in happiness, negative emotions are really, really important because they're like big flashing signals that something isn't right. So when you feel that unpleasant feeling of envy, it's full of information.

Because as you say, when we envy someone, it means they have something that we wish we had for ourselves. Because people can have things where I'm like, oh, that's great for you. But I don't, it's great you're going on a six months trip to Japan, but I don't want to go on a six months trip to, so I don't envy that. Right.

And one of the ways I saw this in my own life was when I was a lawyer, I was clerking for Justice Sandra Day O'Connor on the Supreme Court, so I had this great law job. And I was reading my alumni magazine, where they kind of update you on everything that people in your class have been doing.

And I noticed that when I read about people who had interesting legal jobs, I felt a kind of mild interest. And when I read about people that had interesting writing jobs, I felt sick with envy. Now, why did I feel that way? I wasn't on a writing path at all. But I noticed that it was like almost to the point of like not wanting to see it or feeling so uncomfortable, I wanted to turn away. And that told me a lot about what I wanted for myself because I didn't really want those interesting legal jobs. Yeah, it's like, yeah, yeah, you can have it. But the writing jobs, those to me

really attracted me. So thinking about whom you might be, and it can be really useful. And sometimes also we disguise and be with anger, resentment, or criticism. So like somebody in your office like, oh my gosh, she's going off on another trip. Like I don't know why she's traveling all the time. I mean, who's got the time and the energy for that? Really what you're saying is gosh,

I wish I were going on all those really excellent trips. And then you can say to yourself, maybe I need to plan a trip. Maybe I need to take the time and the energy and plan a trip because even I need to take the time and the energy and plan a trip, because even if it's just like, you know, like a drive to another state, because maybe my, the emotion that I'm feeling against this other person is really telling me about something that I haven't acknowledged myself yet.

And do you think, like, so that's, you're, I think what, when I was looking at that or one of your books, could they all blend together because I've read them all? I don't know which one came from which one. I have to say problems. You know, like I'm like, I can say from this one, that one, it's the happiness project or that one. That kind of like, again, dovetails into act the way you want to feel, right?

Because sometimes we don't act, we act or we do things not the way we actually, but we cover it, like that trip, right do things not the way we actually, but we cover it like that trip, right? We're really kind of MVS and we wish it was us, right? But we pretend we're angry about it, you know? Yeah. More from our guests, but first a few words from our sponsors. So have you guys started playing Best Fiends yet?

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ourselves to a very uncanny degree by using it. So yeah the ideas that you act the way you wish you felt because we think that we act because of the way we feel. So I feel like okay because I'm angry that must be why I'm throwing things in yelling. But actually in the brain, it's more like, oh, there's all this yelling and throwing stuff happening. We must be feeling really angry. Like, let's bump up the emotion. And so we can take control of this by acting the way that we wish we felt. So like, if you feel sluggish, act energetic, like move more quickly,

speak with more energy, and you'll make yourself feel more energetic. Or if you're feeling really kind of shy and reserved, act friendly, like really pump it up and try to act, because I think it's very hard for us to consciously change our mental state. But it's very easy for us to consciously change our actions in the world. And so, you know, if you are feeling resentful

against someone, maybe try to voice your gratitude for that person and kind of by putting yourself through that motion, or if you're feeling angry, you might act in an affectionate way, and that's gonna help you feel affection. So sometimes people wait to feel loving, to give a kiss, but it's actually that giving a kiss is gonna make you feel loving.

And this is something that it's a very easy way to intervene in our mental state by just like controlling what we do with our bodies Now how long do you think it takes to actually change that because oh right away you think so like So if I I think you said this and that one of your I think you started giving your husband a kiss every morning and therefore or something like that right yeah, and that eventually becomes your new normal or become second-eight, right? Don't do feel that everyone though Generally has a baseline to happiness and you can only do it so much or what do you yeah?

Well, that's there's a lot of research into that and some people have argued that there's like a set point and people kind of drift Up or drift down, but they always come back to a set point. And I think it's more helpful to think about a set range because about research suggested about 50% of happiness is genetically determined. And then 10 to 20% is something called life circumstances. So that's things like age, wealth, health, marital status, occupation, education, things like that. Then the rest is very much influenced by our conscious thoughts and actions.

And so I think, you know, one person's range might be like four to seven and somebody else's range might be seven to ten. And some people are born tickers and some people are e-ours and we see that in the world. But so I think the question for all of us is, you know, given what is within my conscious control, can I make sure that I'm at the top of my range, instead of at the bottom of my range. So maybe my top is a seven, and your top is a 10. But I still want to be a seven.

And that's what I can control. Now, can you change somebody? And I talk to many people who are kind of like naturally very appulian types, who have children who are like Laura on the kind of happiness natural range. I kind of want to change their children. They're like, how do I just tell this kid to look on the right side and smile and like

you're gonna, I'm like, yeah, you know, you get what you get and you don't get upset. People are just, they're wired differently. And so you kind of have to accept, you know, a person's nature. But I do think that I mean, I certainly found for myself and I think it's true for just about everyone. There's a lot of low hanging fruit in our ordinary lives without taking a lot of time, energy or money,

where we really can move the needle and we really can help ourselves to become happier. And that's what I always talk about. It's like being happier because achieving happiness, it's like, what is that? It's like, I can't even hold that idea in my mind. It's like, what does that even mean? But happier.

It's like, if you did this, would you be happier? It's like, usually that's clear. Yeah, I'd be happier. If I exercise almost every day, yeah, I think I'd be happier. That's easy. Would I achieve happiness? I mean, who? What does that, what does that even mean?

I don't know. Well, I think that's true. I think also like anything else that you want to be better at you got to practice right? Yeah, right the skill if you want to be a good basketball player You're gonna play basketball and so these are just these are just like ways and tools for people to work on right to Get their level a little bit up a couple of notches up Where were you by the way before you did all this stuff, do you know what your happiness level was, your baseline, and where are you now?

It was a seven. You were a seven? Yeah, I was a seven. And that's something when they look at people all around the world and all kinds of circumstances, most people say they're either pretty happy or very happy. Most people are pretty happy. People are resilient.

People are pretty happy. And I would say, did all, did all my happiness, did my happiness project and all my happiness research change kind of my, my, my inborn nature. No, but what it did is it changed my experience of my life because I have so much more like fun and friends and excitement and enthusiasm and I have a lot less guilt and boredom and anger because I behave myself better. And you know, I've just thought a lot more about my values and putting my values into the world. I've thought about the importance of growth and novelty. Like, I just know how to set myself up.

Am I still the same person? Deep down, 100%. Like, if I'm on the subway, like, staring into space, I'm the same person I was, you know, when I was something, you know. But my experience of my life is a lot happier. So what after you finished the happiness project, did you continue with lots of these things?

And you did? One more and more and more. Yes, more and more and more and more. Yeah, all the time. Yeah. I mean, I'm an appholder. So for me, it's like, what could be more fun than a new habit?

But I recognize now that not everybody feels that way. No, exactly. And then I'll hold on a second. Because you said, I was going to say this earlier, and we talked about the four tendencies, but where was it? I had a little note to myself that I wanted to ask, oh yes. Could you talk about how to form a habit? You said, again, one of these books I don't remember about clarity.

It's very important that when you want to form a habit, that you have to have this different types of clarity. I really like that, and that's have to have this different types of clarity. And I thought that I really liked that. And that's why I wrote it down to ask you. Because before you actually do this, you need to have a precursor to it. And yeah, so there's 21 strategies, as I said, to have a change.

And this is one of them. Because some of the strategies are really obvious. Like scheduling, it's like, OK, we all get it. Monitoring, OK, we all do it monitoring. Okay, we all do. Clarity is a little bit harder to see. And clarity is just the idea that we want to be really clear about what we're asking of ourselves and why. Because if I say to myself something like, I really just want to appreciate every day more. It's like, what is that? Like, what does that even look like? What does that mean? What am I aiming for? What do I mean by that?

And so the more that we were like, or like, I want to eat healthfully. What does that mean? So I think it's like clarity is like, I am going to prepare lunch and bring it into work every day instead of ordering from a takeout place. Or I am going to have three meals a day because I know that if I get too hungry,

that's what I had to the vending machine. I'm going to have three meals a day because I know that if I get too hungry, that's what I had to the vending machine. I'm going to have almonds for a snack instead of popcorn, or whatever it would be for you. Different people would have different rules, but the idea is clarity because the more you have identified what you're asking for yourself and why, because also sometimes people get into the situation where they're just hand waving.

It's like, oh yeah, I totally, I'm gonna 100% I'm gonna start, I totally need to start exercising. No, they're not really. They're just saying that because they want you to get off their back. They don't want to argue about it, so they just say they will.

They have no intention of doing it. Clarity is like, okay, you say you're gonna exercise. When are you gonna exercise? What's that gonna look like? Do you have the right clothes? Do you need to join a gym? Are you gonna do this on YouTube? Are you gonna sweat? So you have to take a shower after

or maybe you don't sweat, so you don't need to take a shower? Like, what does this look like? Clarity means that you can't kind of make excuses to yourself because it's just sort of this nice, vague concept. Clarity kind of forces action because it starts you down a road of like actual behavior change.

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You know what I find interesting that you wrote the four tendencies after you wrote better than before and happiness project, because I find interesting that you wrote the four tendencies after you wrote better than before and happiness project because I feel like that's like the crux knowing the person out there. No, you're exactly right. You're 100% right. Right. And with the problem, I didn't invent it.

I mean, I was the reason that I understood it was because I was seeing all of these weird patterns in habit formation, like my friend on the track team, like what is up with that? Or people would say to me, oh, I would say because a habit question that I would often ask people to try to get to their thinking as I'd say, how do you feel about New Year's resolutions? Good, good, good, good people would always say exactly the same thing. They would say, I would keep a resolution when it made sense to me. I would not wait for January 1st because January 1st is an arbitrary date. And I was like, that never gave me a pause.

Why is it that they're all saying exactly the same thing? Arbitrary, right? That was tripping them out. And so it was really, it was only when I was deep, deep, deep into the habit research and understanding, like, well, and also, okay, so with the bliders, here's something that puzzled me, like, especially if you know the big five personality. So one of the things that they look at is conscientiousness. This had always puzzled me

because I'm highly conscientious. So I take this test, I'm highly conscientious and I know that about myself. And I get people who are not conscientious. Okay, I find some people don't want to be conscientious. But puzzled me was the people who were patchy. Sometimes they were 100% conscientious and then 100, and then other times

they were zero percent conscientious. To me, this didn't make sense. Why was it that sometimes a person would be they clearly had the discipline they clearly had the ability? They did it under certain circumstances, but then in other circumstances, they just seemed helpless to follow through. How do you explain that pattern and that's what the obligatory it was like that makes perfect sense because it's the outer accountability that is the difference in those circumstances. like that makes perfect sense because it's the outer accountability that is the difference in those circumstances. So you're exactly right. I really wish I'd written the first tenancies first because it was set up better than before

so much better. But I was like deep into better than before. And then I was like, okay, I got to write this book first before I get to the first tenancies because in this book's half written. Well, yeah, because it all made it kind of like I said, everything, all your books actually dovetail, but really like I think at the end of the day, it's about first knowing who you are, knowing your personality, and then everything else kind of like falls more into place.

I mean, that's why I was gonna say to you, like I was gonna ask you a while ago, like what's the first step of becoming better than before? But really, I can kind of figure it out. It's basically knowing your personality first. Yeah, self-knowledge. Self-knowledge, right? Absolutely.

Because otherwise, it's like, if you know if you're a morning person, and I person, that's really going to help you. If you know if you're an obstane or a moderator, that's really going to help you. Here's one about work pace. Some people are marathoners, some people are sprinters. So marathoners are people who like to start early. They don't like a deadline. They like to work slowly and steadily.

They feel like that's when they do their best work and their most creative work. Sprinters are people they like, the kind of the intensity and the adrenaline of the deadline. They do their best work like right up against it. They like to work very intensely. If they start early, they kind of lose interest and waste time. They're not procrastinating because that's how they do their best work. They look back on their work with pride. They don't feel like they need it more time, but they want to do it all at the end. And again, it's like a lot of times people will say, well, you're doing it wrong because you shouldn't do that. And it's like, what works for you when you're doing your best work? Like, unless it bothers me, I mean, maybe if we have to work together,

that's a problem. But that's very different from me just saying to my, you know, to my 18-year-olds, you shouldn't write your paper in the last week. You should take three weeks. It's like, maybe not, because maybe this person's a sprinter. Again, it's just, it's like something that's set yourself up for success. Well, and all like, exactly. And then like, but then there are other things like, you're, isn't your last book is called Out of Order

in Orcom, which is about like, cluttering, which people, again, like, it's funny, because I'm surprised no one ever talked more about this just because it's something that you would think that the less clutter someone has. How things appear on the outside is how it directly affects your inside, right? Yeah, it came way after all of this stuff, right? Because to get peace, I feel, and get order, and feel calmness. But maybe now, as I think about it more, depending

on the kind of person, it's all back to the personality types, right? You may not care about that stuff. Well, the desire for outer order cut isn't particularly correlated with the tendencies, but I do think that people are very different. Like my sister, Elizabeth, is clutter blind. And there are small number of people who are clutter blind. They really just don't see it. They don't care.

Like, I mean, I love to go over to my sister's house. She lives in Los Angeles, whenever I can, I go over there and I clear her clutter because I just enjoy it and she lets me do it. I just begged her to let me base time with her this weekend and let me help her clean up her home office. But, you know, I mean, what?

In Beach, like, she, like, if all things being equal, yeah, she likes it to be orderly, just she actually care no. And for years, I couldn't believe it when she said, I just don't care. Because I'm like, how can you not care? She just doesn't care. And other people just don't care.

And so you can say, well, you would be happier, you'd be more effective, you'd be more productive, it would be better, it's like, or not. So you don't care. And it's a small group of people, but you can't say you should dedicate a lot of time and energy to this. You should make your bed every day, because it's going to make you happier, not necessarily. So it's like if it works for you, it's a useful tool. There's no magic to making your bed. No, but I guess what I was

what I was kind of more getting at was that all of the, like I said, everything kind of like works towards a common goal of happiness. Yes, yes, yes. And I think, and I always do feel like when people have clutter, it does represent something that's going on internally in their life. And, you know, if you do feel cleaner and more like calm and serene, if you do get that stuff out of the way. So that's why again, like I feel like every time you try to figure out what I'm saying

is you feel that way. It's not that one feels that way. One can feel many different ways. You feel that way. I feel that way. Many people feel that way. Yes. That's why I'm totally agree. It is a personal truth through human nature. I know. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's a personal truth. It's I can't go into my sister's house so that's starting to clear off for like kitchen counter. But I mean, that's how I would feel too. Are there certain jobs that people do better at when they are now getting back to the tent?

That's how we're going back and forth in the four tentancies. Are there certain jobs and people that questioners do better at or regretbles do better at? Like, in all of your research did you find that this? That you know these two careers are usually this kind of personality type or that kind of personality type Well, what I found is that just about any kind of career can be done by any of the tendencies And they would bring their own strengths and limitations to it So you could imagine something like a journalist you could be like oh questioner right but in a blighter could be a great journalist

A rebel could be a great journalist a holder could be a great journalist They might bring a different set of skills to it and a great, you know, right? But in a blighter could be a great journalist, a rebel could be a great journalist, and a polter could be a great journalist. They might bring a different set of skills to a different set of limitations. I will say that there do seem to be, and there are circumstances that suit them better. So if you're a questioner, you do not wanna be in an environment where there's like strong corporate spirit,

and we have a visionary leader, and we're all here to execute on that vision, or we work as a team, because it's like, okay, but the fact that like we've always done it this way or that's what the team thinks isn't good enough for me. So I'm going to get myself to a place where they really value my questioning nature because if I might be seen as not being a team player and that can get against me, whereas in another environment, that could really benefit me. Now, Rebels, I will say that Rebels often well in something like sales, where there tends to be kind of an atmosphere of like, look, whatever you got to do to make a sale, that's okay.

Because we're as an holder, it's like, well, it's five minutes after the deadline. What are we gonna do? Like, that's through, but in rebels like, come on, oh, I can make a deal. That could really suit them. Also, they tend to do well in things where there's a lot of variety, a lot of autonomy.

So like, I talked to a rebel who rebel who was the manager of a restaurant chain. So every day she was driving to a different restaurant, talking to different people. She's on the road a lot of the time, so nobody really knew where she was. So she really thrived in that kind of environment. There was a lot of spontaneity. She could do what she wanted in a particular time. There was no one looking over her shoulder. On the other hand, there are rebels who are very attracted to areas of high regulation,

like the military, the clergy, the police, and corporations with a lot of rules. This really puzzled me for a long time, but rebels say some rebels really like to be in an environment where there's a lot of rules to push against. They feel like that kind of gives them their energy and their focus. So you do see rebels in these environments often, which was very surprising to me to find out. Here's another interesting thing about rebels. If you have a team, whether it's a founding team, like the two of us started this company,

or it's even like a romantic pair, if one person is a rebel, almost always the other person is an obligerant. That's overwhelmingly the pattern. Because obligers team up the best with all three tendencies. They're like the typo, and they do best with rebels. Questioners and upholders often do not work well with rebels, so rebels will tend to gravitate toward obligers. And obligers kind of, they get something from

the rebel tendency to, so it tends to be like a fruitful pairing. Really, I was going to ask you about that. Like, what pairs up the best together? What's your husband then, if you're an upholder? You should question her, and that's, I mean, I bias, of course, but that's a really good pairing, I think, because one of the limitations of the upholder tendency is that we tend to too easily go along with things. It's like, you're asking me to do something. I can do that, I will do that.

Like, I'm not even questioning, like, should I do that? I just like execute. That's not good. You know, we should stop and say, is this first my time in energy? Like, why am I gonna do that, I will do that. I'm not even questioning, like, should I do that? I just like execute. That's not good. You know, we should stop and say, is this first my time in energy? Like, why am I going to do this? You're people are asking me to do stuff all the time. Why would I do it? So I walk inside of my husband, you think I should do this?

And he'll say to me, why would you do that? And then I'm like, yeah, you're right. So even just being around him has helped me to kind of, my impulses to just go ahead to do it. But he's taught me, wait, like a lot of times, if you don't do something, there are no consequences, so you don't have to do it. And then I see people ask you to do things

that it's just don't worth the time in the energy. And then I think for a poll for questioners, it's satisfying to be with a poll, it's because questioners are so interconnected, they are totally interconnected. They respond well to the interdirection of a holders. And so I think my husband might be stressed out if he saw that I wasn't good at meeting my expectations for myself. Whereas it's like, we both exercise all the

time. We both like, it doesn't bother him that like I quit sugar because he's like, well, if that's what you're going to do for yourself, then like fine. Yeah. And so, um, so I think that's a very strong pairing. But as they say, obligers, they are the type of, they tend to pair up the most easily with L3, and they're the biggest tendency too. So you see a blighters paired up with L3 tendencies very commonly. And it's not possible to change your tendency, correct? Like usually you are what you are, right?

You can have it when, but you can't really, that's, you can't, like a question or can't become an appolder or typically not. What you do see is that people think that they've changed, but it's really circumstance like, oh, I used to be in a blind trip, but now I'm in a polter, but really, it's just you've created so much outer accountability for everything in your life.

It feels like you, you know, you're like, I'm in a book group and I'm in a blind-take group, and I'm in an exercise club and, you know, know, you're like, I'm in a book group and I'm in a wanting group and I'm in an exercise club and you know, it's you're like, okay, that's all I have accountability. Or you kind of misinterpret it. Like somebody said to me, well, I always thought I was a rebel in high school and college, but now I realize I was just doing what my friends expected me to do. So it looked like a rebel from the outside, but it was really part of a peer, peer pressure. So yeah, I think from occasionally, and I've only seen this a handful of times,

someone goes through a truly personality altering event, like a very serious brush with death or a serious bout of addiction, or they're taking medication, prescription medication that like significantly alters the way their personality comes out. And those folks, and again, it's a small group of people so I haven't really studied it, they seem to just sort of break free from the framework altogether. It's not like they switch from one tendency to another tendency, it's almost like their behavior

just like isn't matched into the tendencies at all in a way that I can perceive, and they just are kind of floating into another dimension. But as I say, that's very rare. I would say in my own life, I only know a handful of people where I would say, this person isn't the person that I once knew, and I feel like they're not the tendency that they once were. I'm curious, because you were in law, and I know you're like writing, where did all of this other stuff, it's like all the psychological stuff,

the human nature, interest, the passion for that. Was there something that happened before law school that you were just always curious about human nature that this became your area? Or what was it? It's funny that you say that because I think I've always been interested in human nature. And the happens project was my fourth book.

And so I wrote a book called Power of Money, Fave Sex, the User's Guide, I wrote a biography of Winston Churchill, a biography of John F. Kennedy, and like this is my year. Oh my God. This weird book about profane ways, which is kind of like about property.

But really they're all about human nature. And, and that is happiness, fraudulent with your fifth book. Yeah. So I was like the example of somebody who was an overnight sensation after 10 years of work. Yeah. But one of the things, one of my favorite things about myself is I often become intensely fascinated

by something that I'll just do gigantic amounts of research. And like I just went through this huge thing about being obsessed with color, but this is all the way back. I was like obsessed with Harriet Tubman when I was little. So this is something that I often experience. And so I, but I think that once I started writing that kind of universe of issues was what attracted me. But I remember I, I studied that you say that though because I remember I finally was like,

oh, I understand the pattern. Like looking back at all this stuff, I've done it to human nature. And I was like, that's my subject human nature. I was very excited that I like managed to put a word on it. And then I was starting this person I know who's a very, very respected writer, not fiction writer, you know, like big job and everything. And I said, yeah, my subject's human nature.

She goes, that can't be your subject. That's too broad. And for like six months, I was like, oh, I guess I can have human nature as my subject. I mean, who can pick it? And I'm like, what? Yeah. What are you saying?

She probably was just jealous and envious that I had taken dibs on it. Exactly. And of course, I didn't say that human nature is your subject. And of course, I did say that human nature is my subject. It's preposterous to say, oh, you can't take that as your subject. But I believe it for like six months. And that was an important lesson for me.

Don't let that else tell you what your subject is. Of course. Absolutely. No, yourself. So you just kind of always have that personality that you just when you start something you kind of like get so deep into it and you dive and then one thing kind of led to another where this became the evolution of everything. Yeah, that's exactly. It was just like a natural outgrowth of something that I've been doing for a long time

Yeah, so what are you gonna do next? It's your next book my next book is going to be about the body and the senses and how to reach the mind to the body So it's about the five kind of you know what you would call kindergarten senses, but then also four additional senses Which I say are symbol pattern people in time, which you know, I just decided that I know about proprioception and all that stuff, but I'm not interested in that. So it's about how to tap in, how to get to the mind and to, and to like experience more vividly kind of everyday life by trying to tap into the body.

And it's so much fun. It's like the most fun, every project that I do, I'm like, there will never be as project as fun as this one. This is the most interesting subject that I will ever write. It's all downhill from here. And then I get this one else and I'm like, oh my gosh, I just wanna read about vanilla all day.

Like, let me tell you about ketchup. Crazy. So I love it. Well, it's amazing, because you have so many best sellers. It's not even normal. People usually get one and they're thrilled. But you hit it over and over again.

Well, after 10 years, I should say. You're an overnight success after 10 years. But why do you think people were so captivated by the happiness project and it kind of like tapped into so many people? Do you think most people, because you earlier said, you think most people are more or less happy? Do you really believe that?

Because I would think the opposite for the reasons why this product, your first book, your fifth book, became so popular. Well, you know, the thing about my book is that I didn't start from a place of deep sadness or sorrow or despair or destruction. I'm just an ordinary person. And I had a perfectly happy life. And one of the things that I thought, and I say this on the first page, is one of the things that I thought I didn't live up to it enough. I wasn't grateful

enough. I didn't know, create how happy I was. And then I didn't want to, I didn't want something to happen and think like, Oh my gosh, I didn't realize how happy I was and then I didn't want to I didn't want something to happen and think like oh my gosh I didn't realize how happy I was you know what happened and so part of it was just trying to be more aware of my happiness and it was also the idea that like there are easy things to do again as I said there's low hanging fruit things that don't take a lot of time energy or money that we can do to make our lives happier and richer and and and it seems like such a shame not to do those things just because you have, it hasn't occurred to you. So I think what appealed to people about my book is it was very concrete.

So I explain the reasons in the science and I think that's kind of always fascinating people. But it was also like, a lot of times you'll read something and you'll be like, yeah, that's interesting. And I don't disagree. But I don't really understand like what that would mean for me or how I would act on that in my own life. So I think a lot of times what people found exciting about the book is they would get their

own ideas. They would be like, oh, your right relationships are really important for all the reasons you say. And you're going to do this, but I'm going to do this. It kind of got them thinking about the things they could do. So a lot of it was they would do what I did because the stuff I did was pretty simple and straightforward or they would think of their own things which is even more exciting. So part of what's fun for me is like I'm so much engagement with my listeners and readers people are constantly giving me ideas and nuances and like you know kind of tweaks and

It's great because I see all the things that people are doing And all the kind of imaginative things they've come up with. So I think that's what it tapped into was sort of this idea of, I wanna be grateful for everything that I have, but I also kind of want to do more with it. That's a great point actually, because you were, it wasn't like you were

in search for happiness, because you were deeply depressed. It was about how to elevate what you already had and because you knew already. So then, and then the other thing I was going to just say was that, like you said, small little changes can make it extravagant. You could have huge extravagant change

with little small tweets all the time, right? So can you give people a little bit of, what can they what give them some ideas of some small little tweets that they can Kind of do Well one thing is the one minute rule This is anything you can do in less than a minute you do without delay So you hang up your coat instead of throwing it over the chair or you print out a document and put it in the folder instead of just like You know leaving it sitting on the desk. And what this does is it gets rid of that kind of scum of clutter on the surface of everyday

life. And for a lot of people, this is just transformative. Another thing that we do in our family, and this is a little bit different because usually the things that I suggest are things you don't need other people to cooperate with because often they don't want to cooperate. But one thing you can do is to really try to give warm greetings and for a while. And this is like, think about your dog. Your dog seems happy to see you.

It's like when somebody comes or goes, really greet them. In our house, we really try to stand up and come to the person, give them a kiss, give them a hug, really acknowledge the fact that they've come back or they're leaving. And this just dramatically increases kind of the tender, attentive feeling in a household because it's a very lonely feeling when you feel like nobody cares if I come or go. Even people who are very loving, it's like if they just grunt was there like, you know, looking at their phone when you

walk in, it's like, it's just, it's not a great feeling and it's easy to take it for granted and it's, but it's a very easy habit to change. Another thing I would say is to think about having fun. A lot of adults are sort of like, well, there's fun for the whole family, but they don't really have fun for themselves. And we really do want to give ourselves healthy treats. When we give more to ourselves, we can ask more from ourselves. But you don't want to give yourself an unhealthy treat like a brownie or impulse purchase or something or glass

of wine because you don't want to do something to make yourself feel better that in the end it's just going to make you feel worse. But having a bunch of healthy treats like maybe it's doing across repuzzled, that's my husband's healthy treat, or maybe it's watching it up a set of the office, that's my daughter's healthy treat. I love perfumes, so putting on perfume is a healthy treat for me. And it gives you that sense of being recharged, you know, like you're like the cell phone that needs to

get plugged into the wall. And when we feel when we give our sales treats, we feel kind of energized and taken care of. But this is not a reward. It's not something that you deserve or that you have to earn. This is something that you get it just because you want it. I know people, this was something that was new to me. A lot of people shop and then they abandon their cart. They just like the thing of like picking out what they would take.

It doesn't even matter how expensive it is because they're not going to buy it. They just have all the fun of putting it in the cart and then they just click out. For some people, that's a healthy treat, not for me, but I've heard from many people who just really love that or like researching a trip. I'm not going to take that trip, but I need to research that trip. I'm like, okay, if it's fun for you, it's a healthy treat. And so those are some of the things I would say that you might think about. I wanted to, I mean, I know I've taken up a lot of your time. I gotta go. I gotta go. Two minutes. Two seconds. I'm gonna, I want to leave with this one thing because I think it's

important for the time we're in right now with everything the pandemic and everyone. People are very lonely right now, right? How do people who are lonely, that's like a baseline and how they feel? Practice happiness. What's a good way to kind of start on that process? Well, the thing about loneliness is it's a very, very important signal that you need more social connection. It's not a question to surmount the feeling of loneliness, but to really create the emotional connections that are going to help alleviate the loneliness. But ironically, research shows that people who are lonely tend to have a harder time connecting with other people, and they tend to be more prickly and more judgmental.

If you're feeling lonely, you might have to force yourself to get out there. Of course, it's hard when you're not. You can't do the normal things that you would be doing and kind of in the casual way that you'd be connecting with people. But it's really important to take the time, even if you don't necessarily feel like it, like maybe your bookgroup's getting together. And you're like, I don't feel like another Zoom call, but really force yourself to do it because we do get an immediate mood boost by connecting with other people.

It's hard when it's through these, you know, it's not in real life or, you know, socially distance or whatever. But we really, if you are feeling lonely, you really do want to try everything that you can. Maybe you go to a park and so you're just around to other people. You're a six feet apart, but you still have that sense of like just being part of a group or, you know, you, you're just trying to do something that's gonna allow you engage with the world because it's one of the keys to happiness

is relationships with other people we really need to put that at the forefront of everything that we do. Yeah I think it's probably the most important besides the person knowing your personality right? Well you've been a pleasure thank you so much for coming. It's so fun so fun to talk to you. Thank you so much. It was really fun to talk to you. How do people find you if they want to know more? Take your quiz and get your books or we'll all be about it. You can get everything. Everything is on my site, which is GretchenRubin.com. If you want to go straight to the quiz, which is free, it's quiz.GretchenRubin.com.

If you want to listen to my podcast, it's called Happier with GretchenRubin, which is anywhere you It's quiz.gretchenrubin.com. If you want to listen to my podcast, it's called Happier with Gretchen Rubin, which is anywhere you listen to podcasts. I'm on social media all over the place under the name Gretchen Rubin. And I love to hear from people in all different ways with like insights and questions and observations. So, you know, get in touch if you want to find out more. Just go to my website or contact me. Yeah. I love your podcast too. It's amazing. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Well, it's so fun to talk to you. Thank you for having me. It. I love your podcast too. It's amazing. Oh, thank you. Well, it's so fun to talk to you. Thank you for having me.

It's so fun to talk to you. Thank you so much for being a guest. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by the YAP Media Podcast Network. I'm Halah Tahha, CEO of the award-winning Digital Media Empire YAP Media, and host of YAP Young and Profiting Podcast, a number one entrepreneurship and self-improvement podcast where you can listen, learn, and profit. On Young and Profiting Podcast, I interview the brightest minds in the world, and I turn

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