Heavyweight - #50 Nick

Episode Date: December 15, 2022

Is Nick hearing his dead brother’s voice in a song by a Grammy-nominated musician? Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by senior producer Kalila Holt, along with Mohini Madgavkar. The supervising producer is Stevie Lane. "We Are the Paradox" is by The Brilliant. Written and produced by James Moss/Jake Wherry at The Herbgarden. Guitars/Bass/Keys/Programming by Jake Wherry. Vocals/Programming/Keys by James Moss. Special thanks to to to Chris’s parents, Steve and Stephanie, as well as to Emily Condon, Steve Marsh, Liz Fulton, Max Green, Ellen Frankman, Nathalie Russell, Alex Blumberg, and Jackie Cohen The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Angular Wave Research, Lamalo, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Yes. Is it healthier to take a bath or a shower? Is it healthier to take a bath or a shower? From a medical perspective. I think a bath's more relaxing. Okay, which is better, bacon or ham?

Which is more heart healthy? That's a toss-up. Okay, I'll say bacon. Bacon. Is screaming a good cardiovascular workout? I'm such a dummy. All right, time to take a bath while eating bacon and screaming my head off. From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein,

and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Nick. Right after the break. I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio, exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly.

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Hey, how's it going? How are you? The clock's moved forward an hour, so it's not all dark anymore. Huh. These two subdued dudes aren't on lewds. They're Canadian, and their lack of expression is an expression of their proud Canadian heritage. One of these Canadians is me, Jonathan Goldstein, and the other is Nick.

Nick grew up in Ontario with his older brother Chris. They had the same dad, but different moms. Still, Chris would always say, There's no such thing as a half-brother. No matter what anyone says, like, we're brothers. Chris split his time between his parents' houses, so the brothers mostly saw each other on weekends. But I think because of the rarity of his presence,

it was that much more special to spend time together. We'd stay up until four in the morning, playing video games, listening to music. Nick says his brother introduced him to the music that would form the blueprint for his taste. Chris loved electronica and house music, but his special love was beatboxing. And Chris was an amazing beatboxer.

It was, like, relentless. Like, we'd go to McDonald's, and the car ride there would be beatboxing. Sitting down in the booth would be beatboxing. It would just be, like, constant. I'm not taking the picture. A video? Nick sends me a grainy YouTube video from 2006. In it, a shaggy-haired teenage Chris is leaning against a wall

with a group of friends outside a bowling alley. He pulls the gum from his mouth and as casually as whistling a tune starts to beatbox. It's hard to understand how the sound of a whole drumline is coming from the mouth of one 17-year-old boy.

In the YouTube comments, a 12-year-old boy. In the YouTube comments, a 12-year-old Nick has written, you are my hero. Only a few months after the video was shot, Nick remembers coming downstairs one morning to find his mom sobbing. She told him Chris had been in an accident. At which point I thought, okay, Chris has been in an accident and broke his told him Chris had been in an accident. At which point I thought,

okay, Chris has been in an accident and broke his arm. Chris has been in an accident and broke his nose, whatever it might be. Yeah. You know, when nothing that bad has happened to you in your life, you don't jump to the worst case scenario when someone says there's been an accident and then Chris had died.

And then Chris had died. Chris had been killed in a car crash. He was 17 years old. I feel like I mourned in the way a 12-year-old would. Like, I would often find myself doing things that I would think that Chris would have thought were cool to do and trying to keep those parts of him that I admired alive. So I got, like, a little bit more into beatboxing and, of course, listening to music,

to music that he liked, like mostly Bonobo. Bonobo is a British DJ and electronica musician. He was Chris's favorite, and so became a favorite of Nick's, too. And even as Nick grew older, Chris's musical influence remained. Through the years, he kept an ear out for new albums by Chris's favorite bands, always wondering what Chris would make of them. Which brings us to 2017. By this point, Nick was in his early 20s.

He was at his parents' place having a beer with a friend when the friend put on the newest Bonobo album. And he started playing this track that opens very clearly with beatboxing. It was just a short sample, a few seconds of beatboxing, that Bonobo had looped several times. And the second I heard that, I was like, that's Chris, for sure. The sound of his beatboxing is like just totally drilled into my head. Like I just know what it sounds like in the same way I know what my wife's sneeze sounds like.

There's of course like the very logical part of me that was being like, there's no way. This is just some random sample. There's no way that could be Chris. But the other 99% of me, I'm just like, that's gotta be him. Like, that's gotta be him. In that uncanny moment, as he listened to the sound of his brother being brought back to life a decade after his death, Nick looked over at his friend and said, Nothing. I remember not wanting to bring it up in the moment as to not like kind of freak him out to be like,

Well, this song reminds me of my dead brother. Nick's modus operandi is to never impose a burden on others. But as a result, even into his adulthood, he's never quite figured out how to broach the subject of his brother's death, even with some of his closest friends. Many of them don't even know Nick ever had an older brother at all. But in the weeks that followed, Nick played the song in private over and over.

But in the weeks that followed, Nick played the song in private over and over. The experience of listening to it and feeling Chris's breath in it provided him with a space to grieve. Since Chris was cremated, there isn't a grave for Nick to visit. And so the sonic space became all the more invaluable. It feels like that sound came from a different time, like came from the time of my memories as a kid with Chris. It's nice to hear a person's voice you don't get to hear anymore. But Nick wants to be absolutely sure that he is hearing his brother's voice.

Despite his initial certainty, a part of him wonders, is his brain just working through the grief? Or is he really hearing his dead brother's voice in a track by a Grammy-nominated musician? Nick has several points of evidence to support the latter. First, of course, it just sounds like Chris. Second, Chris often reached out to musicians he admired. In fact, at the Ottawa Jazz Fest, Chris even navigated backstage to meet Bonobo. The two ended up chatting about sampling. In navigated backstage to meet Bonobo. The two ended up chatting about sampling. In a bid to further impress Bonobo, Nick thinks it's entirely possible Chris followed up

that interaction by sending him beatboxing samples. Samples Bonobo might have saved. The third point of evidence, the song's name. Ontario. Ontario. The Canadian province Nick and Chris are from. Ontario. Ontario. The Canadian province Nick and Chris are from. Bonobo is from England, but he met Chris in Ontario.

Nick has tried everything to get a definitive answer. He's searched online for information about Bonobo samples. And about once a year, he'll reach out to Bonobo, his management, and his record label. I'll, like, go on an emailing spree, and I'll reach out to, like, everyone who's ever sniffed Bonobo. Being like, I do not want to, like, say that my brother deserves credit for anything or payment or anything like that. I just want to know. And they've never responded? They never responded.

I mean, it's not like the Rolling Stones, right? I mean, you'd think that he would be a little more accessible. Yeah. I'm just looking up Bonobo just to get a sense of, but all I'm coming up with is, wow, amazing pictures of primates. Oh, yeah, that would make sense. Holy cow, I'm just looking, oh God, it's very moving. You haven't experienced true emotion until you've seen a picture of two bonobos playing with their baby.

And then there's their personalities. Did you know bonobos share food with strangers? Or that they make love face-to-face? Or that female bonobos show a preference for unaggressive males, that is, males who are subdued, not rude. But Nick did not approach me to learn about bonobos, even though they are wonderful. Nick came to me for help. It would be amazing to use your fame and clout and power to get a hold of the people that I haven't been able to get a hold of. Nick has an outsized view of my fame and clout and power.

But it's not like I'll be trying to get an actual bonobo on the phone. Which, by the way, would be adorable. I'll only be trying to get Bonobo on the phone. So, I promise to try. And Nick, in a subdued way, is thrilled. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. And in my own subdued way, so am I.

I even break out a little beatboxing amuse-bouche. Did you hear that? Yeah, a little beatboxing, a moose boosh. Did you hear that? Yeah, a little scratching. Ha, ha, ha. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute?

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Is it possible for a beatboxer to be recognized by just a brief sample? Can one actually identify beatboxing as one would a voice? In short, does Nick's story make sense? Before approaching Bonobo, I want to consult an expert. And Nick thinks he knows just the person.

Beatboxing icon and former member of The Roots, Razel. I remember Chris saying that Razel is the greatest of all time. I know this other guy named Devin. Nice. Did I mention him last time we spoke? Nice Did I mention him last time we spoke? Devin was a Gimlet intern who participated in many beatboxing competitions

Every time I'd run into him like, say, in the bathroom or about to go into the bathroom or coming out of the bathroom I'd say, hey Devin want to spit a little something for me? And he'd laugh and say maybe later Yeah, Devin, want to spit a little something for me? And he'd laugh and say, maybe later.

Yeah, Devin's pretty cool. Rozelle is like beatboxing royalty. But Nick seems super stoked about this Rozelle guy. But, I mean, no, like, in no way do I mean to discredit Devin. in no way do I mean to discredit Devin. I send Razel an email, and when I don't hear back, my producer Kalila finds a phone number for him, which, oddly, is listed on his Instagram.

Is it possible that he's not aware of it? That he did it by accident? That would be weird. I don't know. Look at me. I'm constantly making mistakes. How old is he? He's 57. Oh, 57. What an inspiration. Well, now you're more excited to talk to him because you're contemporaries. He's 57 and he's still beatboxing away. Fantastic. Leave your name and your number and someone will return your call. I think we got the right number. The mailbox is full and cannot accept any messages at this time.

Goodbye. Of course it is. Of course it is. Devin? Remember that guy I said I knew named Devin? Great beatboxer, really cool guy? Oh, hey, yeah. After Nick's hero, Rozelle, crapped the beatboxing bed, I was blessed with the good fortune to get Devin on the

phone. For pro beatboxers, it's very, very easy to tell who the beatboxer is just by a quick, you know, sample of their beatboxing. Right. Your idea that somebody could recognize that just from the beatboxing is totally on point. After Devin tells me that I'm totally on point, I ask if he could listen to the Bonobo sample alongside a recording of Chris to see if it's the same person. Let's take a gander. And you went...

I thought you were going to launch into some beatboxing. Now you've given me an appetite. Play Ontario by Bonobo. Devin forges ahead, ignoring my hint to rustle up a tasty beatboxing booyah bays. Ontario by Bonobo. Next, for a point of comparison, I send them the YouTube video of Chris. And to my surprise... I've seen this video.

Really? I swear I've seen it. How? Why would you have seen it? Because YouTube was the only way people learned how to beatbox. And this video is like... He has really, really good skills. Also, for that time, it's shocking to me that he would be this good in 2006.

That's crazy. Those are really impressive boxing skills. So impressive, in fact, that Devin wonders, if indeed Chris is being sampled on the track, why wouldn't Bonobo use a flashier example of his talent? Why would he instead loop something that sounds so sedate? of his talent. Why would he instead loop something that sounds so sedate? Like, just very basic. That sort of would be the type of thing anyone would do as their first sound. So I just don't know why he would take some random kid sample of the most basic version

of beatboxing and put it in. Stylistically, Devin isn't able to link the Bonobo sample to the YouTube video, so I send him another example of Chris's work, hoping it might help clarify. Okay, I heard something interesting. What's that? Right there. Okay, so... Is it the tss sound? Yeah, he does that. It's the? Right there. Okay, so... Is it the sound? Yeah, it's the same thing from the Bonobo song.

It does actually sound pretty similar now that I'm hearing just that part. Now that Devin's confirmed the plausibility of Nick's story, reaching out to Bonobo seems like a reasonable next step. So I email his record label. Then I email his management. Then I email his record label again. And his management again.

After waiting several weeks, I call in a favor from a friend with Music Industry Connections who gets me a more direct email address. But just like Nick, I hear nothing back. Thanks for calling Red Light Management. If you know your part is extension... So I try phoning Bonobo's management company, but there's no operator, no directory.

I have no way of knowing what extension to dial. Let me just try a random one, maybe? Invalid entry. Please try again. Invalid entry. Please try again. Invalid entry. Please try again. Uh, one, one. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Invalid entry. Oh, for God's sake. My fame, power, even my clout is getting me nowhere. even my clout, is getting me nowhere. Why is it so difficult to get a response? In all my correspondence, I keep explaining over and over how this isn't about money or credit, how Chris idolized Bonobo, and Nick listens to Ontario as a way to mourn him,

and yet I still can't get anyone to even engage. Maybe there's something about the whole business of sampling and authorship that's making them touchy. Because when sampling took off in the 70s, almost nothing was cleared. But then, about a decade later, the tide turned and the lawsuits began. The Beastie Boys are still paying for the samples on Paul's boutique. Kanye West was sued by the parents of a child he sampled from a YouTube video. And just last summer, there was drama between Beyonce and Khalees because Beyonce used a sample from Milkshake without Khalees'

permission. Is it possible that for all our reassurances, Bonobo's people still think we're angling for a lawsuit. And then, at long last, Bonobo's people finally get back to me. I'm sorry for the delay in responding, the email reads. I did get confirmation that the person you've emailed us about was not sampled in the song Ontario. Thank you and best. There's no sense of who is doing the confirming, no mention

of Chris by name. He's only referred to as the person you've emailed us about. I write back asking who and what was sampled so I can close the loop on this whole thing. After waiting three months and receiving no reply, I follow up, but I never get a response. I did get confirmation that the person you've emailed us about, you know, being your brother, was not sampled in the song Ontario. After all the waiting, all I have for Nick is a generic letter that turns his beautiful talisman, the song he's been listening to for five years, to dust. I wish that I even had an email from them that was a little bit more considerate. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, thanks again so much for looking into it. Really appreciate it. But yeah, thanks again so much for looking into it.

Really appreciate it. While Nick's subdued reaction is to be expected, as a subdued Canadian myself, I can tell the news hurts. But being the kind of person who never wants to burden, Nick shows more concern for my disappointment than his own. Before this whole undertaking, Ontario could exist in a grey zone. Nick could believe he was hearing his brother. Now that that's been taken away from him,

he's lost his place to mourn. But maybe there's another way to provide Nick with such a space. And so I brainstorm ideas for a new sonic memorial. Maybe I could get a remix from that guy Devin whom I think I already mentioned? What about, offers my producer Kalila,

that other musical act Chris liked? Do you mean Devin? I ask. No, she says. The Herbalizer. Kalila's contradicting me isn't due to insubordination alone. She's referencing a detail

from that story about Chris's meeting Bonobo at the Ottawa Jazz Festival. Nick had mentioned that when Chris first slipped backstage, he ran into another group. And he's like, hey, can you guys tell me where Bonobo is? I really want to meet him. He's my favorite.

One of the men in the group turned to Chris and said in a pronounced British accent, Bonobo? Like, fuck Bonobo. We're the Herbalizer. The Herbalizer. Potty mouth, Bonobo hating, the Herbalizer. The Herbalizer would go on to become another one of Chris's all-time favorites. And Nick's as well. And so I email an address I find online and explain Nick's situation. And then I make my request.

Maybe the Herbalizer could create a song that features Chris's beatboxing. Whereas I'd spent months trying to get anyone even remotely associated with Bonobo to respond, I get an email from the Herbalizer that same day. It's from the band's co-creator, Jake Wherry, who explains that while the Herbalizer is now defunct, he's working on a new project with a new partner. He tells me they'd be up to hear more about the idea. So, a few days later, I get on a video call with James Moss, aka DJ Sterling Moss, and Jake Wherry, aka The Herbalizer. We're British and we say The Herbalizer.

Sorry, did I say that? It has an H, you know, none of this herbalizer. Now look here, old boy, what's the bloody herbalizer? Herbalizer, okay. Jake has the vibe of a character from a Guy Ritchie film, the ex-rugby player who works as an enforcer for a loan shark played by Jason Statham. You know, scary. But he is well within his right to be tearing me a new one. I apologize for the faux pas. Oh, I'm only kidding. I kind of loved it.

Sure, I've produced radio stories, but I've never once produced a song. Not even one of those public radio premium ones, Ira Glass and Peter Sagal singing a parody version of Biggie and Puff Daddy's More Money, More Problems. But with lyrics about how your money solves problems. Problems inherent to sustaining important journalism. So with neither musical training nor the slightest idea what I'm doing, I start music producing, offering suggestions for the vibe I'm going for. Elegiac might be overstating it, but like allowing some of that feeling of loss into it or...

You know, I think that the way that he beatboxes is not wistful. The story might be, but that's not the way that he performs. Yeah, I was just thinking that as well. but that's not the way that he performs. Yeah, I was just thinking that as well. Wistful beatboxing. What was I thinking? James and Jake are well within their rights to be tearing me yet another new one. It should be more like a celebratory, positive, happy thing.

It should be about him living on through the music. But I think just see what happens rather than trying to force it to go in a direction. Just let the vibe happen, man. Throughout our conversation, my mind keeps turning back to one question. Why would two popular, successful musicians be so amenable to talking to a first-time music producer like myself? James has performed for crowds that have numbered in the hundreds of thousands. And Jake has had songs featured in Hollywood films.

Why would they entertain a request to write a whole piece of music honoring someone they don't even know? But it won't be long before the answer to my question is revealed. And in the meantime, when I tell Nick the idea, he's thrilled. And in the meantime, when I tell Nick the idea, he's thrilled. Walking through a really nice suburb of London on my way to see Jake. In June, Nick travels to England to see family. But knowing Jake lives in London and being such a big fan,

Nick nervously asks me if Jake might want to meet up. I figure it's not a bad idea for the two of them to get to know each other. It might even help the song. So I ask Jake if he'd be open to it. And once again, Jake surprises me. Not only does he agree, but he invites Nick over to his home. It's a lovely little street. It's not where I'd imagine Jake of the Herbalizer to live.

Nick records the visit and tells me about it later. It was a little nerve-wracking walking up there. Hey. Hey, Jake. How's it going, eh? It's good, eh? Good, eh, man? Man, this is surreal to meet you, I have to say, honestly.

I wake up in the morning, I put my pants on just like you. Yeah, I think I was a bit intimidated, both it being someone who I kind of admire, who's music especially, I mean, I admire, and then also just the fact that they're British and have that different sense of humor and a bit of an edge to them and stuff. I was here visiting my cousin. He's like a diehard

Oasis fan. Oh, he'll get over it. Jake ushers Nick into the house and doesn't bother standing on ceremony. Almost the second Nick's inside, before he's even positioned his microphone, Jake gets right into it. So how long has it since your brother passed? 2006, I think, so...

Okay, my wife died in 2004. My wife died in 2004, Jake says. And this, it turns out, is the reason why Jake's been so open to Nick. He relates to him. Around the same time Nick lost Chris, Jake lost his wife Mary. Also unexpectedly, and also tragically. I was on a plane, going to detail in Poland, and I got a call from my neighbor saying,

go, get to the hospital, get to the hospital. The neighbor had heard Jake's two sons, only four and five at the time, crying next door. An hour later, the kids were still crying. It was then the neighbor jumped over the back fence and found Mary lying on the floor, dead. Mary had been emptying the dishwasher, hanging the utensils up on a rack, when she suddenly collapsed. It would take a few days to work out what had happened, but it

seems a screw on the utensil rack had connected with a live wire under the wall. Mary was electrocuted. It was a freak accident. Losing Mary was really tough, but I had two little kids and I just thought, as a testament to my love to her, I thought, I'm not going to let this fucking destroy me. I'm going to be the best dad I can.

Like I was essentially a stranger walking into his home and he told me his life story within five minutes, which is admirable. You know, something that I wish, I really wish I did have more, the confidence just to be open, just to be brutally open with everyone. While Nick often worries that talking about his grief might be a burden to others, with Jake, knowing he's been through something similar, that burden disappeared. And so Nick was more open than he usually is.

He and Jake chatted about their respective losses. There's something he said at one point that really stuck with me. It's like, you know, once you hit a certain low point, you just can't get any lower than that. You kind of bottom out. And I related to that, despite the fact that on paper, his hardship seriously outweighs mine. It felt like I've been where he's been.

He has the most lovely little backyard with a cherry tree in it, and I had a few cherries. These are my artichoke plants. It's a fucking pain growing your own vegetables. And then in the back backyard, there's this studio, which is also equally magical. It's a big, big shed, got everything. It's got a full drum kit, insane collection of vinyl, all sorts of other instruments.

This is one of my favorite ones. In the studio, Jake plays Nick some of the things he's been working on as they continue to talk. I've had some fucking down, down, down moments, days, weeks, months, years, and music has definitely really been very cathartic for me. When he was at his lowest, Jake couldn't bring himself to make any music at all. It was a drought that lasted years, but lately he's been on a tear. He tells Nick about a night last January, just after leaving the studio.

Two in the morning, I was pretty high and went to bed, and I was just playing the tracks on my phone on repeat. I was just like, I found myself chuckling aloud to myself with this deep belly laugh, with this profound sense of just joy

that the music I was listening to sounded fantastic and the realization that I had made it. I just couldn't believe it. It's like, this sounds amazing and I've made it. Jake's collaborator, James, stops by to also meet Nick. Nice to meet you, man. James, how's it going? And Nick tells him about that fateful meeting backstage

at the Ottawa Jazz Fest. Fuck Bonobo, we're the fertilizer. That's a fair response. Yeah, exactly. I'm not fat. That's not you. Yeah. I've got a quiche in there.

Anyone need to? I mean, he made me a quiche. In all fairness, it was a microwave quiche, but it was a very good microwave quiche. Threw together a little salad. Thank you. We ate quiche and salad in his backyard, and I think that was one of those surreal moments where it's like, you know, I'm not particularly religious,

but if Chris were watching down on me in that moment, he'd be having a laugh that I'm having quiche with the fucking Herbalizer. Yeah, if Chris could see this, he'd think having a laugh that I'm having quiche with the fucking Herbalizer. Yeah, if Chris could see this, he'd think it's insanely cool. Nick is a husband and new dad, but no

matter how life moves along, and no matter how old he gets, he'll always continue to think of Chris as the cool older brother, his hero. And eating quiche with the fucking Herbalizer? Chris would definitely approve. We're going to have to go to get on that train.

At the end of all this, Jake offered to drive me to my train to the airport, which was so, so nice of him. And I honestly, I don't think I would have made my flight if it wasn't for that. Thanks again, man, so much for all this. You're welcome. The moral of the story is indeed,

fuck Bonobo, wear the Herb-Laser. Hey. Hey. Hey, Nick. Hey. How's it going? It's good. I miss you guys. Three months after they bonded with Nick that day in London,

Jake and James get back in touch. And they've made a song. A song featuring Chris's beatboxing. So we all get on a call together to listen. Okay, here we go. Turn it up, Nick. The track is called We Are The Paradox. You know, we wanted to build something around your brother. He's the engine.

And I had this really real feeling towards the end. It was like, you know, he's back. He's the engine. And I had this really real feeling towards the end. It was like, you know, he's back. He's here now. And it's great to work with him, even though he's not here. Leaving Jake's one day, James said he had this lyric rattling around in his head. Put the beat in the box. So they added it to the song. There's a lyric that says, cut the phone, in the box, so they added it to the song. There's a lyric that says,

cut the phone, stop the clocks, which is a reference to a W.H. Auden poem called Funeral Blues. It's an ode to a lost loved one. We are the paradox, which you can interpret however you like. It will mean what it means to you as it means what it means to us. Later, Nick also plays the song for his dad. Wow. Unbelievable. We are the Paladins In the beat, in the box In the beat, in the box In the beat, as it goes

We are the Paladins And then at the end, everything drops out and it's kind of like sending Chris back to back to the world that he's in now so kind of everything fades out and then Chris kind of goes to the distance as well. It's like saying goodbye at the end. So. Just incredible. To have that much life and energy in the track

was something Chris would have been happy about I don't know, it just feels right I'm glad to feel like it's mine We're all a mess of paradoxes Believing in things we know can't be true Missing the dead, but also unwilling to talk about them. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. When it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out,

there's always music. This episode of Heavyweight was produced by senior producer Kalila Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Mohini McGowker. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane. Special thanks to Chris's parents, Steve and Stephanie, as well as to Emily Condon, Steve Marsh, Liz Fulton, Max Green, Ellen Frankman, Natalie Russell, Alex Bloomberg, and Jackie Cohen. Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, and he himself, Bobby Lord. James and Jake's new group is called The

Brilliant. Keep an eye out for them in 2023. And in the meantime, check out our own brilliant, Christine Fellows' new album, Stuff We All Get. Additional music credits can be found on our website gimletmedia.com slash heavyweight. Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on Twitter at heavyweight or email us at heavyweight at gimletmedia.com This is our 50th episode.

Next week, 51, is our final episode of the season. And if I'm not mistaken, I believe it is our longest episode yet. So see you then. We are the paradox. Продолжение следует... Thank you. We'll see you next time. We are the Bucks. Thank you. We'll see you next time. We are the paradox. I'm beatboxing. I'm beatboxing. Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do