Hidden Brain - Encore of Episode 3: Stereotype Threat

Episode Date: January 5, 2016

Annie Duke was often the only woman at the poker table, which influenced the way people saw her, and the way she saw herself. Feeling like an outsider can come at a cost, but also can be an advantage.

Thanks so much for listening to Hidden Brain. Today we're presenting an encore of one of our favorite episodes Please enjoy it and come back next week for a brand new episode of Hidden Brain It was 2004 and Annie Duke was about to win two million dollars I'm all in and with that top-air Phil Helmuth going all in with his 450,000 chips, Annie Duke put the pressure on Phil when she checked, raised him. This was the final hand of the World Series of Poker tournament of champions. They had these incredible Hall of Fame players like Dwell Brunson who was a Hall of Famer, Johnny Chan who was a Hall of Famer, and then Phil Helmuth who has the most champion chips

of anyone in the history of the World Series of Poker. And then there was me. And he calls the all-in. And Phil sees what he's up against. Annie and this guy Phil were the last two at the table. And Annie has overcome with emotion seeing how close she is to winning this championship. Annie's crying, Phil's standing up, piss pacing back and forth, the dealers laying out the cards that will determine who wins.

Annie has control of his hand. Now here comes the turn. It's a seven. No help for Phil. Annie was the only woman in this competition. She had knocked out eight guys, eight of the best players in the world to get to this point. Annie, Duke, is now one card away from two million dollars?

Um, but I didn't really feel like I deserve to be at that table. This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. Today, we're going to take the whole podcast to tell you this story about being an outsider. It's why Annie Duke didn't feel she deserved to be at that table, and it's a perfect illustration of a very powerful idea and psychology called stereotype threat. It's an insidious thing, here's how it works. Let's say that you think people have a certain stereotype

about you. There's a part of you that's afraid that your actions and behavior will prove the stereotype true. I'm sort of thinking about, well, if I fold and I'm wrong, everybody's going to be like, see, she plays like a girl. Like, look how he pushed her around. But Annie's story is also about a second idea, and this idea often has a positive outcome. This idea is called stereotype tax.

That's when a stereotype that others have about you works to your advantage. If somebody was at the table who was so emotionally invested in the fact that I was a woman, given that they're treating me that way, how can I come up with the best strategy to take their money? Because I guess in the end isn't that the best revenge. Annie had started playing poker in 1994. And by the time she got to that championship game ten years later, she had basically figured out how to make stereotypes about women and poker work for her. So, I can tell you that the first year that I played in the World Series

poker main event, which was in 1994, 3% of the entrance were women, and last year that number would have been the same. Wow, so this is an extraordinarily male dominated sport. Completely. I was generally the only woman at the table. I had to really love that game in order to be willing to expose myself to a lot of the behavior that I was experiencing. Tell me what you heard. What did people say? There were people who were incredibly welcoming. There were other people, you know, there was one guy who I lost a pot to and he said,

don't cry, I'll give you your money back if we go across the street to the northern. And the northern was a hotel. Wow. You know, and I got called a lot of bad things, but to think about it as, okay, given that this person is viewing me in a way that I find disrespectful, try to think about it as, okay, given that this person is viewing me in a way that I find disrespectful, try to separate yourself from your emotional reaction to that and think about how you can use that to your advantage. Annie had learned to make her opponents pay literally for the stereotypes they held

about women. Right. At the poker table, for example, I sort of in my head divided people into three categories. One was the flirting showvonist and that person was really viewing me in a way that was sexual. And not as overtly as the guy who invited her back to the great Northern Hotel. These were just guys who sometimes seem more concerned about getting Annie to like them, than they were about winning. Like, they'd show me their whole cards

when they were done with the hand to show me whether it was a good fold or not. They'd kind of tell me during the hand, if I was alone with them, in the hand, you know, what they had. They were trying to make nice with you. They were trying to make nice with me. Exactly.

I never did go out on a date with any of them, but, you know, it was kind of flirtatious at the table, and I could use that to my advantage. Then there's a second kind of guy. What I would call the disrespecting show of anist, who mainly just thought that women weren't creative, that they could only think one level deep. So they didn't believe that you knew how to bluff, for example,

because that's a level deep in your thinking. They didn't think that you really had creativity. They thought you were very straightforward in the way that you played, because you know you're a girl. Right, so they assume that you're naive, basically. Exactly. So there are strategies that you can use against them. Mainly, you can bluff those people a lot.

And then there's a third kind of guy, perhaps the most reckless. The angry showvonist. This is a guy who would do anything to avoid being beaten by a woman. You couldn't bluff them because they would call you all the time for fear that you might be bluffing them, and then they would also try to push you around a lot, so they would play extremely aggressively against you. They'd be trying to bluff you all the time, because the best thing that could happen to them was that they bluffed you, and then they could show you that they'd be trying to bluff you all the time. Because the best thing that could happen to them was that they bluffed you and then they could show you that they had a terrible

hand and like be like, ha ha, little girl, look what happened to you. Right. Because that would confirm that everything that they believed about you was true. Right. So you can just sort of wait until they, what I say is until they would impale themselves on your chips. I have to ask you though, so it's clear that thinking about this mathematically and in a very detached and unemotional way gave you an edge at the poker table and I can clearly see how that's very smart. But you're not a robot, you're not a computer. At some level you also are processing how people actually are behaving toward you.

And I'm wondering if you could talk a minute about how this felt. Most of the time, I would compartmentalize while I was at the table. I would sort of say, I have emotions about this, I'm going to set them aside and deal with them later. And then I would leave the table and drive home in tears. Coming up, feeling like an imposter. It was always in the back of my mind, like, do they really respect me? Why are they talking to me?

Is it just because I'm a girl or do they actually respect my play? More from Annie Duke, after this. Welcome back to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vidantam. We're talking with poker champion Annie Duke about stereotypes, how they affected her and how she learned to turn them to her own advantage. In her first 10 years of the poker table, Annie was able to compartmentalize her emotions, and she won a lot of money doing this, using stereotype tax to her advantage.

That was until 2004 at the Tournament of Champions. Intimidation is such a big part of being a successful player. Is that going to come into play at this table, you think? Oh, not really. In fact, these players know each other so well. If one of them sneezes, somebody else has already handed them a handkerchief. Actually, at least for Annie, that wasn't true. She had never played poker on TV before, and she was pretty sure she had been invited as the token woman, that she was way out of her league. She thought that ESPN, televising the game in this way for the first time,

just thought it was good optics to have her there. And I went in there with this incredible fear that my play, which was now in front of lipstick cameras, so my mistakes were no longer gonna be private to me. That was gonna expose that everybody was right, and I was actually a terrible player, and despite the fact that I had spent the last 10 years making my living playing poker at the highest levels of the game,

that I didn't really deserve to have ever won anything I was bad and I had just gotten lucky and now everybody was gonna know it and what they were saying was true. You felt like an imposter. Completely. You were facing a very difficult situation here, which is you're not just juggling with what's happening at the poker table, but you're juggling with all of this other psychological crap in a way that

just makes it hard to focus on what it is that you're actually doing. And in so many ways, that not to me is a perfect illustration of stereotype threat. It shows that when there's a stereotype that's in the air, when there's a stereotype that multiple people believe, even if you don't believe it yourself, if you're the person who is potentially at the receiving end of that stereotype, it affects your behavior in such a way that you become more likely to make the stereotype come true. I think that that's completely true. It was always in the back of my mind, like, do they really respect me? Why are they talking to me? Is it just because they are thinking about me in a different way? Like, they want to be friends with me because I'm a girl,

or do they actually respect my play? There was a particular hand, Annie says, when stereotype threat got the better of her. So in this particular hand where I had two tens. This was early in the game. There were nine people still at the table. And for Annie. Certainly in the beginning of that tournament, I just kept thinking to myself like, oh, please don't let me be the first one out, because then everybody will be right.

Because of course, she wasn't good enough, she didn't belong at the table, she couldn't hang with the guys. That discourse was kind of running in the back of my head the whole time. And then Annie winds up in a head-to-head match-up with one other player. Her hand was a pair of tens, which is a pretty good hand. It was good enough that there wasn't a huge chance that her opponent, this guy Greg Raymer, had a better hand, but there was still a chance. As a professional poker player, this is the kind of hand that you evaluate

in a matter of seconds. So I really needed to eliminate that hand as a possibility and I was having a lot of trouble doing that because I was so afraid of making this really bad big decision on television and and having everyone say I told you so. This was a pivotal hand, but a lot of the significance was really just in Annie's head. If she folded but really had the best hand, everybody's gonna be like see she plays like a girl like look how he pushed her around. And if I called and I was wrong, plays like a girl, like look how he pushed her around. And if I called and I was wrong,

then I could come up with a whole other thing. Like look how bad she could, didn't she know that he had the best hand, like any idiot would have known that, you know. And that was running in my head as I was trying to make this decision. So you're down to if you do and you're down to if you don't? Absolutely, absolutely.

And it was incredibly difficult. And it wasn't until I kind of snapped to and saw this tell that he had. And we see a tell, you mean what? So a tell is a physical, well, it could be something verbal that somebody says that gives a clue. But generally, when we talk about tells, we're talking about something physical that somebody does,

that telegraphs the quality of their hand, or at least what they think the quality of their hand is. So Greg Raymer did something which I haven't actually said what he actually did, because I think that's unfair to him. But he did something that gave away the fact that his hand was very, very strong, which allowed me to then fold.

And at that moment, I was actually quite confident in it. But Annie's confidence in her decision was short-lived. Another player came up to her during a break in the game and what he said, kicked the stereotype threat in Annie's head into overdrive. Phil Helmuth, right after that hand occurred, came up and just told me like, what an idiot I was because clearly Greg Raymer had Ace King. And I thought, oh my gosh, this is a guy who's like, at the now, I think he's a 12-time world champion.

But at the time, he probably had, you know, seven world championships or something. And he seemed pretty confident that he had Ace King. And oh, no, and it was just, and then I had an hour in my room having a panic attack. Well, we were on break from the tournament. It was pretty awful. Annie's stereotype threat had produced what poker players

call tilt. Tilt. When you allow kind of bad things that happen to you that very often are out of your control to cause you to be a poor decision maker going forward. You know, Annie, social science researchers have figured out one way to beat stereotype threat. There was an interesting experiment conducted at Stanford University by Greg Walton and others

where he was concerned that black students at Stanford might feel that they were imposterous on campus and when negative things happen to them they get a bad grade or a bad interaction with a professor. They'll interpret that in the light of thinking, I don't really belong here. And so he had the students come in and he had them describe negative things that happened to them during their freshman year, but he also had them describe how those negative things were transient events. You get a bad grade or you have a bad interaction, but two weeks later, that's not a big deal anymore.

Right. And he was using this as a way to get students to understand that everyone experiences setbacks. It's only when you see local setbacks as global problems that the risk of stereotype threat comes in and you start to feel like an imposter. Exactly. And it's something that I've used a lot at the table.

When I lose a big pot and it feels like the end of the world, I try to think about how will that really affect my bottom line in the long run. So an example would be you get a flat tire, you're standing by the side of the road, it feels like the worst thing that's ever happened to you. And then if you stop for a second and you say to yourself, well, if it's a year from now, will that flat tire have affected my happiness for the year in any way? And the answer to that, of course, is no. It wouldn't tick it up or down.

So in that same sense, when you have something really bad happen to stop for a second thing about, well, I've had stuff like this happen to me before, when it was a few weeks later, did it really affect my overall level of happiness? And the answer is generally no. And just a moment, the conclusion of the poker championship. Annie Duke is now one card away from $2 million.

You won't want to miss this. Phil Helm you'll see that eight to win this pot. Both players on their feet. We'd like to say a quick thank you to one of our sponsors, stamps.com. Stamps.com helps businesses avoid time consuming trips to the post office. Use your own computer and printer to print official US postage for any letter or package. Then the mailman picks it up. No more wasting time going to the post office or wasting money on expensive postage meters. Right now, sign up for Stamps.com and use the promo code Brain for a special offer. A four-week trial, plus postage, and a digital scale. Go to Stamps.com, click on the microphone,

and type in Brain. Thanks for listening to Hidden Brain. Every week, NPR's pop culture happy hour brings you a fun and funny conversation about the best in movies, TV shows, books, music, and more. From Train Rec to KeyNPL to movie soundtracks to the latest Judy Bloom book, you'll bound to hear something that makes you happy every week. That's Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. Find it now at npr.org slash podcast and on the NPR1 app. This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. I'm talking with Annie Duke about the final

hands in the world's biggest poker champion. So after she nearly lost it in her hotel room, Annie comes back to the table and she has a stroke of luck. She wins a pretty nice hand. And the river card, it's a six of spades, no help for Greg Ramer. He loses that hand. Annie Duke lives to tell the tale yet again, doubles her mind. And you can actually hear at this point in the game, Annie begins to lose an up. It's a sign that she's finally gotten the stereotype threat under control. The flop was just wow.

Yeah, it doesn't matter what order they come in, right? It doesn't matter, well, it kind of does in that situation. Annie had turned on the charm with Greg Raymer. And the next time they face each other in a hand, Raymer got cocky. Now Raymer needs to call or get out of the way. I don't know what he's thinking about here. It's one thing when he called with 9-8 suited before,

when he was chip leader and was a small cost. But he has a lot fewer chips and not as good of a hand. I call. Well the world champion is gonna call. Just to be clear, this was not the right thing to do. Raymer had a pretty weak hand. And now the river card, it's a three no good for Raymer. Well calling that all in with the 98 off suit line, that's a meltdown of sorts for Greg Ramer.

On the next hand, Annie would knock out Ramer, whose nickname was Fossilman. It is an A-sits, no help to Fossilman and he goes down. He played really well. Just like that, Annie was back in the zone. And that actually sort of brought me out of this very bad headspace. Soon, the table dwindled to four players. Helmuth knocking out Johnny Chan in fourth place. Then there were three.

It's a three and that's the end of the line for Howard Letterman. Until finally, Annie and Phil Helmuth, the guy who nearly destroyed her confidence earlier in the game, these are the only two left. And Annie says to him, this is all right, you know. I'm just happy to be in the final two. I mean, seriously, I don't my money off in the first two hours. You could argue that this little old me act

somehow really did a number on Phil Helmut. Because for the next half a dozen hands, he just did not know what to make of Annie. Well, Annie Duke will shy away from this hand. God dang it all, I should have moved in before the fall. Annie keeps the charm turned up. Are you saying you had a good hand, Phil? I had a pocket pair.

Sorry, I couldn't accommodate you. You gave me the raise. Yeah. And they go back and forth like this all the way to the final hand. Annie's got Phil second-gassing every movie makes, and every movie doesn't make. And they go back and forth like this all the way to the final hand. Phil Helmuth was holding a 10-8. But Annie's hand was much better, a King 10. Annie Duke is going to raise Phil Hel000 as she has set her trap.

Phil thought Annie was bluffing. In fact, he thought that she'd been bluffing a lot. I'm all in. And with that top pair, Phil, Helmuth going all in with his 450,000 chips, Annie duke put the pressure on Phil when she checked, raised him. And now, what Phil's all in call, the pressure is back on Annie. About 450 more. She set the trap, call the pressure is back on Annie. About 450 more. She set the trap but Phil has come back very strong.

At this point, it's obvious to both Annie and Phil the other person has a strong hand. The question is how strong? That's a judgement call. It's based on probability, instinct, and all the undecorrents, expectations, and stereotypes that have been running through the game the entire time. But now there's only one question. If Annie thinks that Phil has misjudged her, she knows she should call his bet. I call.

Annie calls the all in! And Phil sees what he's up against. What he's up against, you're meaning the dealer's cards. That's going to determine who wins. And if there was any moment that perfectly revealed how much of an outsider Annie was in this situation, it's this next one. Annie Dukes now won card away from $2 million. In 8, please.

Phil Helmuth needs an eight to win this pot. Both players on their feet, anticipating the river card. It's a three. Any Duke has defeated nine of the strongest poker players in the world. Oh, ****. And when's the first ever World Series a poker tournament of champion?

She won every **** race for two **** days. In classic reality television style, cameras fall of fail as he storms away from the table, out of door just pacing around talking to himself. She check-raise me six times. I know she didn't have it all six times. Oh my god, I won! It was the reaction of a man who just got beat.

She had to be 30 to 1 to win this. By some one, I love Annie, who wasn't supposed to win. But, fuck. And maybe wasn't even supposed to be at the table in the first place. What the fuck? What's going on? But precisely because Annie Duke knew how stereotypes can

be both threat and advantage, well. Well, you heard Phil, and he was right. Annie was definitely a long shot to win this all But as the only female at the table she is now the last man standing Another second from my second third second third. I have to say I need you You're not just a good poker player, but you're clearly a very wise person Well, so are you thank you. Thank you so much for talking with us today, Annie. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun. I see it, but I don't leave it. I just don't believe it.

For more Hidden Brain, find us on Facebook and Twitter. You can also listen to me on your local public radio station. Hidden Brain is produced by Karam Agk-Allison and Maggie Penman. Special thanks this week to Brent Bachman and Jenna Weissberman. I knew I was going to eventually get a hell of a kid genius event. No money. All right, let me call my brother. She wants two million. I'm Shankar Vedantum, and this is NPR.

I see it, but I don't believe it. I just don't believe it. I just can't believe it. brother Howard to call. I see it, but I don't believe it. I just don't believe it. I just can't believe it.