Hidden Brain - Escaping Perfectionism

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

Perfectionism is everyone’s favorite flaw. It’s easy to assume that our push to be perfect is what leads to academic, athletic, and professional success.  But psychologist Thomas Curran says perfectionism has a dark side, and that there are much healthier ways to strive for excellence. Do you know someone who would enjoy Hidden Brain? Please tell them about this episode. And thanks for listening!  

This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedantam. They are on our TVs, on our phones, and on highway billboards. Flourless, airbrushed images of beautiful people living beautiful lives. Their complexions glow, their wealth seems effortless, and their children are always smiling. All of us are surrounded by these pictures of perfection, pictures that contrast all too starkly, with our own complicated messy lives.

Social media platforms exacerbate this, friends post pictures of their idyllic vacations, colleagues announce promotions, a lot of people use the hashtag, Blessed. Meanwhile, divorces, demotions, and despair are the challenges of making ends meet. These show up rarely or not at all. What is the effect of the sharp contrast between the worlds we are shown and the worlds we

are cells inhabit? We may remind ourselves that what we are seeing has been airbrushed and filtered, but the contrast still borrows into our unconscious minds. Some researchers have argued that this contrast produces in us nagging feelings of inferiority, shame and resentment. It causes us to feel we never have enough and to reach endlessly for the next ring, the next achievement, the next milestone. The costs of chasing perfection, this week on Hidden Brain. F's Cart Fitzgerald's masterpiece, The Great Gatsby, describes the story of a man who desperately tried to climb the social ladder.

The final lines of the novel are amongst the most famous in literature. They read, Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgyastic future that year by year receipts before us. It eluded us then, but that's no matter. Tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther, and one fine morning. So we beat on, boats against the current, born back ceaselessly, into the past. At the London School of Economics, psychologists Thomas Karin studies how many of us are modern versions of J. Gatsby.

He explores the psychological consequences of living in a culture that is obsessed with appearance and achievement. Thomas Karin, welcome to Hidden Brain. Thank you for having me. Thomas, you grew up in a working-class family in a small town in England and as a teenager you were acutely aware of the social status of two friends Kevin and Ian and the contrast with your own family's means. Can you paint me a picture of what that was like? Yeah so my upbringing was one of love and support but also material like we didn't have a great deal of money and one of my earliest memories of that is going to school with the wrong backpack or the wrong pencil case,

the wrong brand of sneakers. I didn't have gadgets like a Game Boy or a PlayStation phones were just coming in there and didn't have one of those either and when I compared myself with these two characters Kevin and Ian, who had all of those things, and were able to express their personalities and their identities with these material goods, you kind of feel like even though this is all stupid stuff, right, just stuff, but it really matters to a kid, especially if you don't have it. So as I grew older and things like cars started to come into the picture, this kind of shame really started to get really into my bones and that was huge actually. Cars was a massive part of this because cars are the

kind of the ultimate status in right. You just look at how they advertised. All my friends were bought these really super sleek cars with modifications and all the rest of it and I was like really crushing for me That was really embarrassing not to be able to have one too. I didn't have the freedom that they had. I couldn't go anywhere I just tagged along really in the back seat tonight I think suppose this is where I first learned about shame what it meant to feel ashamed and embarrassed about where I am in life and what I have And I sort of learned that you kind of got to buy your way out of that shame in this world, and that became, I guess, an early motivation. I understand that at one point Kevin and Ian asked you what car you were going to be

buying Thomas, what did they ask you, what did you say? So they had these, what we call hot hatchbacks in the UK, you know, the really fast, exciting pieces of machinery I suppose. And everybody around the town would be asking, you know, what are you going to get? And you're going to get this one, you're going to get that one, you're going to get these plates, and what about these trims and these wheels? And you know, I used to love looking at car magazines and craving for a car of my own. And I would always say, you know, well,

I'm going to have this and I'm going to have that. When I get my car, it's going to have a silver trim and chrome wheels and all of these things that everybody else was talking about. I would say that one day my dad's gonna come back and he's gonna buy me a car or it's not gonna be long now, you know, and I kind of wished I hoped that that would happen, but of course unlike them, my family didn't have the means to be able to buy me these things and it wasn't my fault, there was nothing that I could have done to change those circumstances, but you feel it's some way that you're in Attacot, you're less than.

So later on in life, you were determined to get ahead and you became the first in your family to go to college. You had a fearsome work ethic. Tell me about it, Thomas. So I came through the education system actually a really unique time. In the UK, Tony Blair was the prime minister and he had a great education push at that time. This was the late 90s, early 90s and there was a lot of finance to go to university.

So I took that up and I managed to scrape my way to a local teaching college to study sport with every intention of being a PE teacher that was going to be my ambition. And I guess you could say I was lucky really because at my time at that teaching college I happened to intersect with a professor who was on his way to more prestigious university and must have impressed him because he took me with him to do a PhD and that was when the things started to really get quite crazy because I remember instantly being inside this hyper competitive university environment being surrounded by people who were just way smarter than me, more aerodiot, way more put together, people

were pumping out publications, some of them were even getting grant money at. And in that environment, those early feelings of shame and inferiority that I kind of brought with me started to come back again in mega doses. And I think my response really looking back was to develop what can I really describe as an urgent need to lift myself above other people through an excessive form of striving. of other people through an excessive form of striving. Like, made sure I was the first in the office and the last to leave and made sure people saw that. You know, I'd regularly do 80 hour weeks and I'd let everybody know in the office

that I was doing that. I sent these kind of weird conspicuous emails to my academic supervisors in the early hours of the morning and sometimes last thing at night just to let them know that I'm working and I can remember one Christmas doing a thousand words on my thesis on Christmas day and at that time I felt really proud of it. You know these are incredibly unhealthy things to do but nevertheless I believed if I didn't do these things, there's no way I was going to succeed.

So you eventually achieved prominence in your field, you got a job at a top to your university and your new status lifted you into unfamiliar realms where you often felt out of place. You were once invited for example to give a high profile speech at a fancy resort where people had paid a lot of money to attend this event. Tell me what happened, Thomas. Yeah, so all that work did end up paying off and I was able to elevate myself through the academic ladder, I should say, into second tier and then elite institutions. And that's when I did a very important TED Talk, a resort in the US back in 2018.

And I think going to that TED Talk was when I finally realized I'd sort of made something of myself here. But nevertheless, I really felt out of place at that conference. There's people that were paying thousands of pounds. They were from, you know, I taught you taught to them, they're from this mega firm or that mega firm or that big industry and it was kind of overwhelming a little bit. And they sort of just carried themselves with confidence and again, this kind of overwhelming a little bit and they sort of just carried themselves with confidence and again this kind of really picked my thoughts of inferiority. And now the weird thing was I was the one on the stage.

I was the one who they were there to see. I'm a bit of a perfectionist now. How many times have you heard that one? How did the talk itself go? Give me a sense of the preparation you put in and how the talk itself was delivered and how it was received. So the talk itself was extremely nerve-wracking,

but I'm not a natural speaker. It's not something that I ever thought I would do. And I've kind of just been thrust into in a profession that kind of requires you to be pretty good at speaking. So one of the things I do to combat the anxiety that's associated with that is to overthink things, over prepare, because in my mind that's the most failsafe way to make sure things don't go wrong. It's so important that you don't show an ounce of weakness or vulnerability, because in that moment, things can cascade,

they can spiral, and when it's so public, that's when you feel like your deficiencies are short, coming, it's a being exposed. And in the end, I was able to recite a 15 minute talk word for word without any mistakes, which was incredibly important for me, but at the same time, it wasn't the most charismatic of talks, it wasn't the most inspirational, but I did

it, and people were very polite and they applauded, and I'm sure they appreciated it, but at the same time, you could tell that it wasn't quite the show-stopping talk that perhaps other people at the conference had been able to deliver. You do think about that. So in the aftermath of the talk, when you sort of looked back on it, did you remember sort of the polite applause? What portion of it did you end up ruminating on? I was very aware that it wasn't a rouser speech, the others are delivered.

And so I wondered, did it look still to you? Was it very one-dimensional or monotonic? Was I able to convey the ideas in a way that changed people or in some way made them think differently about the topic? These were the goals I had going in, but I wasn't sure in those moments where I'd actually achieved them. So your anxieties about your shortcomings read something of a peak after a romantic relationship ended, Thomas, tell me about that period in your life and what happened? It was a very messy breakup that happened in a

really exposing way and it was something that made me feel very humiliating, humiliating, excuse me. I worried about how it would look to other people, like Chastai as myself about that breakup and what it said about me and that was turning itself into all sorts of negative beliefs about myself. Why can't you snap out of it? Why can't you just get through this? So I felt a lot of self-loving, a lot of shame, a lot of grief, and I went into a really dark place in those moments and what I needed to do more than anything else was to just stop and deal with the emotional plunge that I was experiencing. But my personality wouldn't let me do that. But my personality wouldn't let me do that. And if anything, I was trying to push myself even harder

to overcompensate for the things that were now starting to go wrong as a function of the breakup and how it impacted on my emotional well-being. Some months later, Thomas was working in his office when he started to see flashes. He had no idea what was going on. And the flashes started to get bright, to the stage obscure. What I could see, I could concentrate on the thing I was reading. I had trouble breathing, my throat became really tight and so I tried to get some water but that was no use so run out into the open road and try to kind of suck the fresh air but

none of it was really working and it just started to take over and this panic was starting to feed the panic and then you worry what on earth is going on and my dying is this it. And then after a few minutes of complete meltdown, I would say my body just started to come back to me. I was able to regulate my breathing, my heart rate came down and I was almost to suppose back in the world again. And at the time, I didn't know what Earth that was and I'm sure many of you listening

can resonate, but that was a panic attack that comes from the bursting of the dam of this kind of suppressed anxiety that we're just holding back. And that panic attack was really the first of many, but it was an eye-opener for me and showed me that the way that I was you know, approaching life, trying to achieve, trying to prove to everybody that I was good enough was actually coming at a great expense of mental health. When we come back, Thomas explores the root of his self-doubt and self-castigation and discovers that his affliction is all too common in our modern world.

You'll listen to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. A few years ago, an electronic trading platform ran an ad that was simultaneously funny, sad, and revealing. A young man sits on an airplane. The kid in the seat behind him kicks his tray table into the young man's backrest over and over again. Glimpsing a better world in the front of the aircraft, the young man makes his way to an open curtain. In the first class cabin, beautiful people lounge on spacious sofas. They drink champagne in long stem glasses.

But just as the young man thinks he's going to be invited into the special world, the open curtain is slam-shot. The tagline reads, first class is there to remind you, you're not in first class. Psychologist Thomas Karin knows all about that curtain. He has seen it in his own life, but also in the lives of his students. Thomas, your students at the London School of Economics are smart and hardworking, but many of them come to you in a state of distress. You talk

about one student whom you call John, who exemplified this phenomenon. What was John's story? What I see in young people and students that come through the door is a lot of tension that's bound up in a intense need to excel. And all of my students at some level feel this, but there was definitely a vivid case in John who I think was a very extreme case of that intense desire and need to do things perfectly, excellently to excel at all times. He would constantly come to me in meetings telling me that his grades weren't good enough, even though they were really high, that they weren't good enough, that he didn't feel like he was succeeding in the measure that he expected

of himself. And the matter really how I tried to reconcile those things and tell him that what he's doing is exceptional, he always recasted those successes that abject failures and how he'd let himself and other people down. And this was so sad because John really found it difficult to see his successes in any other way. And his justification really, at all times, very simple, how could he be a success when he was trying so much harder than other people just to get the same outcomes? Well, that's the thing with being at LSE, everyone's exceptional. And not being able to derive any lasting satisfaction from success is really a kind of signature of the way my students interpret their experience at university.

They find it difficult to deal with setbacks. And I think sometimes we misunderstand this as being fragile or young people lacking resilience, but really it's just excessive self-imposed pressures and a deep and profound fear of failure. So Thomas, you eventually came to recognise that both you and students like John were suffering from the same affliction. What was your insight?

So it became evident to me that myself, my students and many, many people around me were struggling with something called perfectionism and need and desire to do things perfectly and nothing but perfectly that comes from a sense of lack, a sense of inferiority, a sense of deficiency, a sense that I'm not perfect and in order to gain approval and validation in this world that I'm worth something, that I matter, that I need to be perfect. So you've conducted a study that has tracked levels of perfectionism over time. What do you find? So we've found recently that perfectionism is increasing among more recent generations of young people.

This was a study we did back now in 2016-2017, essentially looking at college-dune data, have perfectionism. So we have about 30 years worth of perfectionism data, looking at various indicators of perfectionism. And we found when we ran the numbers that perfectionism was increasing, and increasing really rapidly, it's up about 40% since 1989 and that's concerning because it's associated most strongly with negative mental health outcomes like depression, anxiety, self-harm and this hard data is telling us something significant and something that we need to be paying attention to. So, perfectionism is really fascinating because unlike many other flaws, many people celebrate the straight. You call perfectionism our favorite flaw.

What do you mean by that? Perfectionism is something that I think in modern society is lionized, celebrated. We know it carries self-sacrificial patterns of behaviour, it makes us feel a bit miserable but nevertheless, we also think that perfectionism is what carries us forward and makes us successful. A necessary evil, so to speak, if we want to get ahead, we might need a bit of perfectionism. And of course, this has become something of a joke as well, Thomas, in many job interviews when Canada to ask to name a flaw, many of them will say, I'm a perfectionist.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And recruiters, time after time, tell us that that's the most overused cliche in job interviews. And I think it says something about what we consider to be socially desirable weaknesses, that if somehow we can communicate that we're willing to sacrifice ourselves in some way and push ourselves beyond comfort, that that is something that else sees positive, something that they really want on their team or in their organization. So that speaks really to the ubiquity of perfectionism at the moment. I want to spend a moment talking about what perfectionism is and what it's not,

because I think many of us might use the same word but mean different things by it. Many people might say perfectionism is about setting high standards and working hard to meet them, but that's very different, I think, from your definition. You say perfectionism is less about pursuing success and more about avoiding failure. One of its hallmarks is something you'll call a deficit orientation. What do you mean by this term? So a lot of people associate perfectionism with really high standards. That's true.

But actually perfectionism is far, far deeper than what we see on the surface because what's really matters is where it's coming from and where those excessive amounts of striving and high standards and go getting attitudes that you see on the surface are coming from and the perfectionist people is a place of lack as a sense that I'm not good enough, that I'm not perfect enough and I need to prove to other people all the time that I'm worth something, that I matter in this world and the way that I do that is through being perfect because of course if I'm perfect I'll get their validation and

that will make me feel better. That will soothe those shame-based fears of not being good enough. So two people could work very hard. They can both have high standards. They can both care about getting things right. You know, one person might just be conscientious while the other person is a perfectionist. And the distinction you're drawing is really what's driving them on the inside.

Are you chasing success or are you fleeing failure? But there are also some external markers to perfectionism and with perfectionists and counter adversity, you found the often respond with shame and with guilt. Can you explain what that means Thomas? So what we see in the labs is exactly what I experienced when I encountered that breakup in my own life. When you put perfectionistic people in stressful situations, perfectionism will aggravate the stress.

So every time you go into the lab, you tell perfectionistic people to do stressful things, like maybe give a public talk or complete a competitive task against other people. And in the end you say you didn't do very well or you failed. What you'll see is perfectionistic people respond with intense amounts of self-conscious emotion, lots of shame, lots of guilt about having slipped up in some way, particularly if that slip up is public.

It validates in them a sense that if that slip up is public, it validates in them a sense that that fear that they're not good enough. Whereas people who score lower on the perfectionism scales, well yes of course these things do have an impact on their emotional state, but it's a far less profound impact and they're able to bounce back quite quickly. profound impact and they're able to bounce back quite quickly. You told me that after that talk that you gave you engage in a lot of brooding and rumination about how the talk went and you're worried that it had not landed properly or what could have gone better But you're also seeing this in the data that perfectionists engage in a lot of brooding and rumination and revisiting things over and over again.

Perfection stick people, people who are higher in the perfectionism spectrum, what you tend to see is they also score higher on what we would call self sabotaging, fault patterns. So things like you mentioned there, worry, rumination, they're really hyper-vigilant about where they sit relative to others, how they're performing relative to others. They find it very difficult to exist in the moment or be mindful or appreciate successes. And so perfectionists, people really find it difficult to thrive or flourish because they're constantly worried about what's going to go wrong or how other people are doing. Now perfectionists take people off and work very hard,

but one of the really curious insights that you and others have had is that they often don't pay attention to working smartly. They are sometimes indifferent to what's called diminishing productivity returns. What does this mean Thomas? Yeah, so that's a really curious finding actually in the perfectionism literature. We know perfectionists work really hard and they push themselves well beyond comfort into a zone of declining and diminishing returns for every little bit of effort that they put in. Failure is very common among infectious people because the goals that they set themselves are way too high and even if they do succeed perfectionism really just turns those successes

into dead ends because the better we do, the better we feel like we're expected to do. And so we just continually keep ourselves on tiptoes, clinging for more and more. I suppose it's like running on a treadmill that never slows down. So it's really tough, the success equation for perfections because they really never feel like they've ever made it. You and others have argued that perfectionists sometimes engage in what is called perfectionist self-preservation. What is this idea, Thomas? So this is the second reason I think why we don't see very strong correlations between perfectionism and performance.

When things start to go wrong, perfectionists do something really, really interesting. They withhold their effort in order to say face, to kind of preserve their image and their sense of self. And we've done a lot of experiments looking at this phenomenon. And one of the most illuminating those experiments is when a colleague of mine, Andrew Hill, took people into the lab, gave them a cycling task, and said, you've got to complete a certain distance in a certain amount of time. And based on your fitness, you should be able to do of time. And based on your fitness, you should be able to do X amount of distance. So he got them going with the task and everybody were really hard to meet the goal. And at the end, he told them

no matter how hard they did that you failed. Now what's really interesting here is that after telling people they failed, he asked them to do it again. And that's where something remarkable happened because people who didn't have a great deal of perfectionism on that second attempt after the first failure didn't really change the amount of effort they put in if anything it went up slightly but the people who scored a high perfectionism did the exact opposite. They whiff held their effort on the second attempt because they're thinking in their mind as you can't fail at some of you, you didn't try. And if I put all of myself into this first effort and still didn't make it, well, I'm not going to do that again. Because the feelings of shame

and embarrassment were so intense that I just don't want to feel those things again. And so this is, this is the perfectionism paradox, I suppose, this is that they really are so intensely fearful of that failure that when it looks like it's going to be a very likely outcome of anything that we're doing, then they take themselves away from those situations. That's incredibly self-sabotaging. It doesn't just look like complete withdrawal, by the way, it can also come in the form of procrastination, so we'll remove ourselves from doing activities that are really difficult in the moment because the anxiety is so intense. All of those things are not at all conducive to performance. So I guess that's why you would say you would not want to have a perfectionist who is the pilot

of your playing or a surgeon carrying out an operation on you. There's no way you would want someone like me flying you play. Because if an engine suddenly craps out at 35,000 feet, you're going to need a somebody who's able to think very clearly about the procedures. There's going to be, by the way, no perfect way to get out of that situation. There's going to be many, many good enough ways to get out of that situation, there's going to be many, many good enough ways to get out of that situation. And what a perfectionist will do will search for the perfect outcome. Whereas somebody who is more conscientious, particular or diligent, they'll be able to

know that there are many different options that we can take. And the most important thing is to take the option that lands the plane safely. And that's the same with a surgeon. That's the same with working in a nuclear plant. Any of these very high risk activities, conscientiousness, diligence, really important qualities, but not perfection. So Thomas research has found that there's not just one kind of perfectionism, but really three.

And each type comes with its own particular kind of perfectionism, but really three, and each type comes with its own particular kind of psychological hardship. The first might be exemplified by something that happened a few years ago to a tennis player named Mikhail Yushiniy. At one point he was the number one player in Russia and a top 10 player in the world. During a match at the Miami Open in 2008, he missed a point and slammed his own face with his racket. After the third blow with blood streaming down his face, he required medical attention. Would he be

an example of what you would call a self-oriented perfectionist, people who subject themselves to incredibly harsh criticism? Yeah, absolutely. I saw that point actually, I remember it well, and it was at the end of a very long rally in which really the shot that was missed was one of the easier shots. And that intense emotion and outburst that came from a place of just complete self-loving for the fact that having made all of these really

push-up, you couldn't make the easy one. And these are the intense expectations that self-oriented perfectionist people hold themselves to. And the moment they fall short of it, particularly in very important situations, the self-loving, the sense of how on earth could you have been so stupid, what on earth are you thinking, how could you have let yourself make that mistake, can be really so intense that in the extreme cases like this one, they can engage in some really quite aggressive self-castigation. And that's a signature of a self-oriented perfectionist. There is just a simply a lack of self-compassion and a strong sense of self-loving.

Some years ago, Thomas Amy Chua, a Yale law school professor, wrote a book called Battle Him of the Tiger Mother. And at one point in the book, she tells her older daughter that if her piano playing isn't perfect, she is going to take her stuffed animals and burn them. I want to play you a clip of a book interview with the author on PBS. If you read the back of your book, it explains how to be a tiger mother. There's a long list of things you didn't allow your children to do, your two girls. Let me read a couple of them. They were never allowed to attend a sleepover, have a play date, be in a school play, complain about not being in a school play, watch TV or play computer games, choose their own extracurricular

activities, get any grade less than an A, not be the number one student in every subject except Jim and drama, play any instrument other than the piano or violin, not play the piano or violin. When you hear that list read to you, does it sound extreme? Well, it sounds tongue-in-cheek to me, but it doesn't sound so extreme. When I talk to a lot of immigrants or immigrants' kids, they find it hysterical. They know that it's poking fun a little bit, but it really captures some truth. So, that is a remarkable interview.

I was really struck when the interviewer listed the number of things that Amy Chua kept her kids from doing. Now what I'm hearing is that Amy Chua feels that some of what she wrote was over the top. But I'm wondering Thomas, do you feel that this clip captures what you call other oriented perfectionism? Yeah, other inter-perfectionism is when we turn perfectionism outwards onto other people

and we expect them to be perfect and nothing but perfect and we'll certainly let them know. You'll know of or into perfectionist when you meet one. They tend to be quite brash. They will let you know when things haven't gone quite to plan. And it's what we call, I suppose, what Freud would cool projection, the sense that my intense desire to be perfect is projected outwards onto you too. You know Steve Jobs had a reputation for being like this.

People described him as, you know, berating other people for not living up to as high expectations. What's the line here between someone who has high expectations and as a demanding manager or a demanding boss, and somebody who is an other oriented perfectionist. The line is really the inability to accept at any time that things are good enough. Whereas someone that's demanding yes, once I've standard yes, is also somebody who can accept and appreciate when things are gone well, when there's been a success, and can give praise and appreciation for that, and anything else the difference.

A third type of perfectionism is known as socially prescribed perfectionism. Explain this idea to me Thomas. Socially prescribed perfectionism is the most extreme form of perfectionism, and it's a perfectionism that comes from outside, a sense that everybody and all around me expects me to be perfect, and they're watching and waiting to pass if I show any form of weakness. And carrying that around of you all the time isn't really tough. You need to be perfect all times. You need to make sure that your life is curated to show other people, you know, there are no weaknesses. And that is really tough to live under that microscope and to think that everybody in all times is watching. So you found that socially prescribed perfectionism might be rising fastest amongst all

the kinds of perfectionism in our society. Can you talk a little bit about what the data show and why this might be happening? Essentially what we're seeing today is a rise of about 40% in socially prescribed perfectionism from the late 1980s to the present day. That's a really, really big rise, which continues to increase. And it's most concerning because it's most strongly correlated with really quite negative mental health outcomes, like anxiety, depression, low mood, a sense of hopelessness and helplessness, things that are really quite significant when it comes to our mental health. And I think it's indicative perhaps of what have called a hidden epidemic of unrelenting expectations for perfection, which are kind

of taking over among young people. And why do you think this might be the case? Obviously, the one that most people point to is social media and the comparative lens that social media offers us 24-7 and without escape. But it's not just images of perfection in social media, it's unrelenting pressures to excel in schools and colleges, it's the modern workplace and the intense pressures to hustle and grind. It's changing parenting practices. They're responding to pressures in schools and colleges and the more competitive landscape to get into elite college by pushing young people in the realm of education. So there's all sorts of different pressures now that are weighing on young people and they're being internalised as pressures to be perfect.

When we come back, how to escape the perfectionist trap? You're listening to Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. Psychologist Thomas Karn is the author of the perfection trap, embracing the power of good enough. Thomas you call yourself a recovering perfectionist, and you've talked about the ways in which you're working to relinquish your perfectionism. And yet someone looking at you from the outside, you know, would see a prominent professor with a

job at a top school, someone who writes books and articles and gives talks that garner wide attention, someone might say, you know, clearly perfectionism worked for Thomas. It got him to where he is today. How would you respond to that? Well, clearly my perfectionism has pushed me forward in moments where I've needed it to. But the reason why I'm here is because I was very, very fortunate to come through at a time where people like me were supported to go to university, where I just so happened to meet the right professor at the right time, it took me to the right university, but without those remarkable moments of luck, I wouldn't be

here. The second thing to say is that I look, I guess, on the surface, like a very successful individual. And in many ways, I suppose I am. But I can't afford to live in the city that I work. I don't have a house. I've had to put off things like having a family and relationships. I've lived in countless different homes. I can't set root in communities

or build a long and lasting friendship group because my life has just been essentially one long period of flux. So yes it looks like success but it doesn't feel like success and when I look and reflect on this journey and how difficult it's been and the sacrifice I've had to make. I sometimes question whether I might have been better off. Back in my working class community with a job that gives me some sense of purpose, with a family and a house and a community, maybe I would be happier. Is it possible that for some people perfectionism might be something they say, yes, it's a curse,

yes, it's psychologically unhealthy, but yes, also, I'm glad I chose this life. I don't know if Steve Jobs was or was in a perfectionist, but if he was, you know, I suspect that if he was around, he would tell us, you know, I got to start a $3 trillion company. And yes, I drove myself and everyone around me nuts, but that's what I did. And it was worth it. Would that be okay for him to say it was worth it? Or do we get to diagnose him from the outside? No, I don't think we get to speak for Steve Jobs at all. If somebody carries perfectionism around with them and they're really successful,

and they, yes, they go through all of the things that I've experienced, and for them, that's worth it, and who am I to tell them that that is in the case? All I can say from what I understand about the work that I've done and my own experience is is that perfectionism carries a really heavy cost. And that actually there's plenty of evidence that we can be just as successful, if not more

successful, and not carrying around the emotional baggage that we carry around with perfectionism. One of the people who might fit that bill is the writer, Margaret Atwood. She's written nearly the equivalent of a book a year over six decades. When asked how she does it, she says, I'm not a perfectionist, that's one clue. So it's possible you can be very productive and get a lot of things done and not be a perfectionist. In fact, it might even be easier to get a lot of things done when you're not a perfectionist. And you'd be a little more happy to... I think Margaret Atwood is a great example of someone who can combine a desire, a joy,

a real sense of purpose and vocation in what she does, are you writing, and being able to do that in a way that doesn't carry with it this kind of constant self-worrying self doubt about it being perfect or exceptional. And really perfectionism is the fief of creativity in many ways. It stops us from putting things out there when they're not quite right because we worry about how that's going to be received. And I could tell you that first hand

from having written a book. You know, my editor, I think, was ready to throttle me at the end of the process because I was still tinkering into writing right to the end that it was so intensely difficult to get this one out. And outward has almost the opposite perspective. There seems to be a joy and an embrace of the process in her writing and that really comes through in her pages and it really comes through in herself analysis of how she writes and why she writes and the motivations behind it. So I think she's a really good example actually of how you can be incredibly successful, you can contribute so much to the world and not be a perfectionist. You know we're talking about perfectionism mostly in a work context in this conversation,

and that is perhaps where perfectionism mostly manifests itself, but it can also show up in the domestic sphere. There's a phrase you like, the good enough mother. Tell me the story of Donald Winnecun. Donald Winnecun was an English pediatrician and he wrote extensively on parenting in the 1950s. And his idea of the good enough mother was something that was of a bombshell I suppose to mothers of the day who were holding themselves up to really impossible standards that were being placed on them in terms of the way they parent and the way they raise their children. And the idea of the good enough model wasn't simply that perfect mothering or perfect parenting is not possible, of course it's not possible, but it was also that it's not even desirable for the mother themselves, but also for the child. Because the child needs to learn about setback difficulties,

things not going quite to plan, and they need to know how to handle and deal with the frustrations and disappointments of those moments, because the world is gonna present those things to us all the time, and I think those were the key lessons that Winnicott really wanted to instill in mothers. The good enough mother can help to raise children while adjusted and happy and have a zest and purpose for life.

You see, there are steps that we can take as individuals to reduce the harmful effects of perfectionism. And one of the things that you've mentioned to me, Thomas, is that perfectionists tend to engage in a lot of rigid and unrealistic thinking. You know, they tell themselves, I must perform flawlessly and if I don't perform flawlessly, everything around me is going to fall apart. You have a writing technique that you use for yourself and that you recommend to others

that pushes back against this kind of thinking. What do you do? Yes, perfectionism, indeed, involves those really interesting patterns of thinking. What do you do? Yeah, so perfectionism indeed involves those really intruded patterns of thinking, I must do this, I have to do that. Why can't you be this? Why can't you do that? And I think the most important thing to do when those feelings are starting to make themselves known to you is to write them down, think about them, reflect on them, and ask yourself, maybe on a scale of one to ten,

how realistic is this, how achievable is this, and importantly, do I actually need to do this right now? What if I don't, what would happen? And again, often the consequences will be actually sit down, reflect, and not as catastrophic as your perfectionism would have you think that they might be. You know so often Thomas perfectionism is about seeing our work and our accomplishments as extensions of ourselves but of course we don't have to do this. Instead of making ourselves the focus we can make our work the focus. Now you had a role model close to home

who exemplified this idea of the work being its own reward. Tell me about your grandfather. My late grandfather was a master craftsman and I used to watch him for hours as he would fashion everyday things like banisters, chairs, window frames in his workshop. And they were immaculate. From the vantage point of a child, they just seemed magically, how on earth were you able to create these wonderful pieces of furniture? And of course, his meticulousness, his diligence,

his conscientiousness, his high standards were unquestionably the traits of somebody who worked really hard and wanted to do things well, but they weren't the traits of a perfectionist. And, you know, when I reflected on his way of striving versus mine, it became evident to me really that the big difference was that when he had created the things that he created in his workshop, he just took them to where they were going to live and left them there. He didn't loiter for validation, he didn't need that five-star review.

And as far as he was concerned, they just needed to exist way more than he needed to be loved or recognized or appreciated. And that is the thing about high standards, I think. They really don't have to come within security, only perfectionism graphs the two together. And that's why perfectionism isn't about perfecting things or tasks. It's about perfecting our imperfect selves and going through life trying to conceal every lash blemish and shortcoming from those around us.

So, whenever I'm back home, I visit the places where my grandfather's carpentry is still installed, because all those bannisters and stairs and window frames that he brought into the world, a really evidence of a man who had the vocation way bigger than himself. And of course none of those things bear his name, but they used and enjoyed by hundreds of people every single day. And I think just knowing that gave him an incredible sense of pride and accomplishment.

And that's a wonderful way to live and one in which hoping in myself that I can also find that. Thomas Karen is a psychologist at the London School of Economics. He's the author of the perfection trap, embracing the power of good enough. Thomas, thank you for joining me today on Hidden Brain. Thank you, have a minute. If you have follow-up questions about perfectionism for Thomas Karin that you would be willing to share with a hidden brain audience, please send a voice memo to us at ideasathydenbrain.org. Use the subject line, perfectionism. That address again is ideasathydenbrain.org. Please include your name and where you're from. 60 seconds is plenty. Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Brigitte

McCarthy, Annie Murphy-Paul, Christian Wong, Laura Quarelle, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, and Andrew Chadwick. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. For today's Unsung Hero, we bring you a story from our sister show My Unsung Hero. It comes from Julia Minson. When Julia was in graduate school, her mother was diagnosed with advanced stage lung cancer. Julia dove into the research on the disease and discovered there was a new experimental drug that had a small chance of helping her mom. So she brought it up with her mother's physician, Dr. Charlotte Jacobs. She was skeptical, but Julia had done her research, so she pushed back.

You know, here I am. I'm like a 26-year-old grad student in psychology, arguing with one of the top oncologists in the world about a treatment plan. And she says, no, it's incredibly risky. She could bleed out. She could be paralyzed for what remains of her life. I could lose my license. I could go to prison.

Like, absolutely not. And so we go back and forth for a while. And she says, no, and I leave the office disappointed. And then we came back two weeks later for whatever the next appointment was. And she said, I took your idea to the tumor board. And I said, what's the tumor board? And she said, it's a gathering, we have once a month of all the top oncologists in Northern California, where each of us gets to present one case. And I discussed your idea, and they pretty much unanimously agreed that it was a non-starter for all the reasons that I already explained to you, but you know,

I really thought it was worth discussing and thoroughly thinking through and I'm sorry that we can't do it. And it turned out she was right, just weeks later, my mother passed away from the lung cancer, away from the lung cancer. And I still remember that conversation 17 years later, as the time where I felt most heard, perhaps in my life. And I have never seen her since when my mother passed away. And you know, never got to explain that my entire research program right now is about receptiveness to opposing views. And I think part of the reason that stories

particularly precious to me is because I spend a lot of time trying to convince people that making somebody feel heard doesn't require changing your mind. And to me that is like a very stark example where she did not change her mind, but I still felt heard. MUSIC Julia Mensen of Lexington, Massachusetts. She's a researcher at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government

and was recently a guest on our episode, Relationships 2.0, How to Keep Conflict from Spiraling. If you liked today's episode on perfectionism, please consider sharing it with one or two people in your life who could benefit from it. You know who they are. I'm Shankar Vedanthan. See you soon.