Honey You're Ruining Our Kid - Ep 12 "Sleep, Glorious Sleep" with The Sleep Guru, Ciara Taylor

Episode Date: November 27, 2022

Sleep. We all need more of it. Some of us are getting none of it. Some of us have decided that a "normal" sleep routine is beyond our children. Some of us are resigned to having our kids sleep in our beds until they are adults! Ciara Taylor of www.taylormadebabies.ie has been helping parents with every sleep issue imaginable for years. Today she joins us to answer the questions you submitted around the nocturnal turmoil you have found yourself in. This is a remarkable conversation that is bound to be helpful to any parent experiencing difficulty with their little one's habits in relation to naps and night time sleep. To contact us with your questions, please email [e-mail] - Special thanks to Ciara Taylor and all our emailers. Don't forget you can support the show and find bonus episodes on www.patreon.com/irishmanabroad. Honey, You're Ruining Our Kid is an Irishman Abroad Podcast produced in association with GoLoud.

Hello and welcome to a very special sleep episode of Honey, You're Ruining Our Kid, the no-judgment parenting podcast with me, Charlotte Regan, and me, Tina Regan. Tina Regan, my wife, who introduced me to the amazing Ciara Taylor, our guest today. Tina, tell us what Ciara does or who she is well how you came into contact here taylor is an incredible lady from um she her website's called taylor my babies and she's a sleep expert who goes around changing people's lives as far as i'm concerned she was recommended highly from one of my best friends lucy cobride lucy ebbs who she had come around and help her and like this woman just talks so much sense she's seen it all she's half her life has been devoted to working with children

and so she was a midwife prior to this midwife prior to this for I think up to 15 years and then decided you know I'm really good at this I'm gonna go and give this a chance and she also had 10 siblings she did have 10 siblings. And four of her own children. So she's been through it all. Four very different individual girls. And she's seen it all. As I say in this episode,

if you've any doubt over, oh, sleep expert, I'll be the judge of that. Just go to taylormadebabies.ie and read the testimonials from the people who thought they were beyond help yeah their situation was just never going to change their child is going to sleep in their bed until they were an adult or that they were never going to get any more sleep the child gets up at five that's

how the day works until they're an adult until they're an adult but she's fixed them all i just really love her approach because what is her approach she empathizes she's realistic she's fixed them all i just really love her approach because what is her approach she empathizes she's realistic she's like this isn't going to happen overnight it's not going to happen in a week this is a journey we're going to start together and then incremental slow games she gives herself over to that journey she's there for that mom and dad every step of the way that's unbelievable has to be said she is ultra ultrasound yeah so let's not hang around any longer let's bring her right on it's kira taylor from taylormadebabies.ie what a pleasure it is to have only our second ever guest on honey you're only our kid and what

a guest it is kira taylor from taylormadebabies it is fantastic to have here your first ever podcast first podcast yeah well thanks for making it ours we have heard so many glowing reviews you were of course recommended to us by a trusted listener who said you changed her life yeah how does it feel to do something like you do where people are really at their lowest ebb and they think, no, no, there is no fixing this. It can't be fixed. And then you go ahead and you do it. Yeah. Well, some definitely do take a little bit longer than others, but 100 percent, like we always try and get there at the end. I've been doing this now two years.

So I know what can work and, you know, how based on what the people come to me with, I can kind of judge how long this is going to take you know okay that's on a number of factors but it feels great when we get there in the end you know obviously people I was there myself so I completely empathize with these people when they come to me and I understand how hard it is you know in the middle of the night been up woken up and then still having to get on with your day whether you're working or getting up with other kids so it is it's tough but um i love being able to help it's that empathy that you have for these moms and dads that makes them just that is relaxing in itself you completely come to them with the understanding i've lived this too yeah but we can get through this yeah yeah exactly yeah and and that's the lovely

side of it like being able to talk to people and just go through everything that the problems that they're having and kind of force it out bit by bit and get there in the end I would have loved to have known you in the day and just the idea that someone like you is out there doing this makes me feel so happy because you're so needed. This is so essential. So many parents need this in their life. Ah, yeah. Your website, taylormadebabies.ie, is where people need to go if they want to reach you with your situation. I imagine you're very booked,

but I see a big square in the top right corner that says free consultation. Well, where does a journey begin with you when somebody comes? Because I understand you don't meet them face to face. No, I don't. No, I do it all over the phone. So I also have my Instagram account. So I always every week do weekly kind of tips and help on certain areas. Like obviously it's not for every single person.

Like a person might be asking questions or I might post something on the four month regression, but someone would love to know questions about it. They have a two year old. But on my Instagram page, I have a lot of all the various different age groups and tips and tricks and things what you can do to help your baby sleep better and more independently at night. And so what I normally do is people would send me email or a DM on Instagram, they'll give me a brief outline what's going on, and then I can decide what kind of way to go. I do kind of three different packages. One would be on the three to six month age group. So that's sleep shaping routines and sleep shaping because you wouldn't sleep train a baby

under this age. And generally I find it better to wait till they're closer to seven months before you're implementing any kind of sleep training techniques and things like that. So I go through routines and obviously babies at this age still require feeds at night and they'll still wake at night. So I kind of go through everything and what to expect. That's important for people to know what to expect going forward as well. I also like if they came to me and they have a four month old, I'd always include next step, the routine for the next step, how to transition down to two naps,

let's say at eight months approximately, and have that ready for them. And maybe a call at the time as well if they needed me. Another thing I would do a routine as well. If someone came to me and they just have issues with their naps, let's say in the day, but their baby's sleeping all night and that baby is under 12 months, let's say I would just kind of do routines for that but majority people when they're coming to me say 12 months plus would all already have some kind of sleep association now obviously there is so many sleep associations I think I've worked with them all pretty sure I've worked with them all now at this stage and the main ones are obviously feeding to sleep the breast or the bottle rocking or co-sleeping they're the three biggest ones I'd say okay okay

and that's what we're seeing a lot too and I was just thinking there as you were talking that does it surprise you how much actually these parents need to be walked through things so much like does that ever surprise you that people really don't know what they're doing sometimes when with the baby and they need to be told so the plan so much i would you know i know but it must be surprising though when you're so like you've been a midwife you've been around babies for like what is it half of your life you must i'm one of 10 I'm one of 10 I'm third eldest wow I mean for years for years I was bringing helping bringing up babies changing nappies helping my mom I loved that side of things so I was always going down something in the baby route that's I knew that I I started out

as a nurse and and then I just I once I did my obstetrics placement I just knew midwifery was the the one for me so I did that for 15 years and then I brought this once I did my obstetrics placement, I just knew midwifery was the one for me. So I did that for 15 years. And then I brought this in because, you know, the night duty and dance, Christmases, when you have kids, it can be tough as you get older as well. Like, you know, so I brought this in myself and decided that this was the route I wanted to take.

But like that, been a midwife, I thought when I had my first, I'll know it all I'll be fine I didn't you know your hand to the baby you're told feed it three four early and away you go no there's a lot to know you know I didn't know these things when I had my first baby about sleep regressions or yeah you know windows I had no clue about these things but I did work them out myself and I loved routine so it was something I know, read on the same way as men don't pull the information around how to be a good husband and father. I don't understand why men are so reluctant to talk to each other about, do you know what

you really need to do? There's a there's a reluctance to pull this information. I get a lot of dads actually DMing and me on instagram and about help out and for their their babies and sleep and i think it's brilliant and i also get a lot of dads joining in on the hour consultations and i think it's amazing that's amazing and you know what care we said this before a lot of our questions we get are from that from that and i love it it's it's like there's a new movement of really involved daddies. And I love it. It's so great. And with that, hopefully now we can have you answer a few of these questions that we've received.

Or we were like, we need to call in the expert. That's why Keira Taylor is here. So let's get to it. Right. Well, this is a general kind of a few people have emailed in with this similar similar question and basically it's how can you help me stop my children coming into the bed and co-sleeping at night we put them back in their bed but they still come in and now i think i'm taking the easy option as they fall asleep quicker in my bed that's's a very general, we get that question a lot. All the time. All the time.

This co-sleeping and these children are both under the age of four. Perfect. Yeah. And I work right up to six years of age and I've had a lot of older children. Actually, people think it's too late. How am I going to sort this out? They're three, four years of age and this is the only way that they've known how to fall asleep.

I don't think I'll be able to change this but you can obviously there's a lot of factors that come into play here like how long it's been going on temperament of the child things like that so we work on i i start with getting a good background on the child and how long this is going on and other issues and but basically say with that child maybe have they been starting out in the bed and before and then been transferred back to their own bed yes and then coming back in at the night because they're waking up in a different location you know so these are big factors in it so good so i'd always encourage someone like this it doesn't matter whether they're three four five or six to start in the room at night where they're going to sleep, where you want them to sleep. You know, so if they're going to sleep in the parents bed and they're waking up in the middle of the night and parents not there and they're in a different location, they're confused and they want.

So that's number one. It's so simple, isn't it? You say that and it's like that makes such sense. Of course. It's face palmingly simple yeah to start where you want them to sleep and also the child will trust their own bed more if they feel you trust their bed more yeah you know yeah absolutely yeah like it's been ongoing say for a long time and say they've have started out in their own bed and but always end up with in the parents bed to make

changes you know as i said before it temperament makes a huge difference other things that are going on obviously three four five o'clock in the morning you're as i said before it a temperament makes a huge difference other things that are going on obviously three four five o'clock in the morning you're exhausted i know what it's like i i lived that my four kids when i had my fourth was under and my eldest was six and i had to get up with four kids under six and and my eight month old was waking early at night i just turned on doing what i was doing because i knew oh i'll just feed her and she'll she'll go back to sleep yeah if you keep doing what you're doing because I knew, oh, I'll just feed her and she'll go back to sleep. If you keep doing what you're doing, you're going to get the same result. Another thing I get a lot of people say, oh, I tried this, it didn't work.

I tried this, it didn't work. But sometimes people are trying things and they're only doing it once or twice. And, you know, it became very difficult on the second or third night. So they give up. You know, things don't happen overnight. How do you convince them to be consistent because i find that very tough too that is the hardest part of when i'm getting in touch with parents is trying to explain to them you actually have to be the one to be consistent

not the child like we need you on board here we need you to do like this is the intervention now you have to carry it out how do you convince these really tired people to do it? I find that amazing. I'm not convincing them. I think they've already come to me and they know this. You know, first of all, I find out what exactly it is that they want and are both parents on board. That makes a big difference. Both parents on board here because you don't want to confuse a child either.

So if a dad is doing one thing and a mom is doing something different you know that that would make it harder so both parents need to be on board and make that commitment from the very start otherwise it's not going to work or it's going to take longer so I'd really start there and find out like I've had loads of experience with this with with um say it doesn't really matter how old the child or the toddler is, but when a dad, say, is doing one thing and saying, oh, just lie in the bed beside them, it'll be fine, and really wants them to just stay in their bed independently all night, it's not going to work if you're confusing them and saying,

it's okay for one to stay in the bed and the other parent not to, you know. Yes, I totally agree with you. I would really start with, say, a toddler who has a good understanding, say three, two, even two and a half year olds, three, three year olds, really talking to them about it prior to making the change. Yes. Having a good chat with them. And I'd always say, do that in the day.

Don't be doing this at night time and just making a sudden change at night and saying right you're you're going into your bed and you're staying in your bed for the night have a chat and a little build up a little build up like they need to be part of this as well yeah and a little bit of motivation as well like so I'd always encourage like things uh like reward systems really help with this age group. Two and a half, you could really implement things like that from two and a half. Reward systems, I find the fairy door is a really good one to use. The sleep fairy leaves a treat or whatever the parent wants as the reward for them achieving what they did at the night, whether they stay in the bed.

Oh my God, that's the cutest thing I've ever heard. That works really, really well. I always say not to put that fairy door upstairs or in the bedroom, like put it downstairs in the kitchen. So when they come down in the morning, that they've stayed in the bed, say till after six, that the fairy has left this little treat. Now I did once with a three-year-old and I thought it was a great idea.

The mum had bought little cars for their toddler. And then at the end of the sleep training, when he was staying in the bed consistently, she bought a car garage for all the cars. I thought it was really nice. Oh, that is good. I mean, you mentioned stay in bed until six. There are going to be people listening to this going, how in the name of God is that ever going to happen? And Tina raised it already there with this question. And I do want to just jump in with this because as much as you say, well, people are on board, they've come to me, they both want the same thing. You check that both

parents are on the same page. They share the same drive to get this done there can be a certain amount of baggage from your own childhood can there not that a parent can feel real reluctance around getting clear with their kid because they view it in the same category as being abusive to their kid or on maybe unfair unfair or unkind to them that like look we've all been there when a kid puts on those you know puss and boots cat's eyes where they're they're tearing up i'll just go have whatever you want i love you so much well yeah i but what i always wish i could tell some of the parents i've worked with whose kids have been in my class is the circle times where they laugh about what they did to their parents during the night you know the next day with you yeah then like like Kira says these little two three four-year-olds

they're so capable and then they're in my group during the day laughing about how many times they got mom and dad out of bed and i i can't tell those parents they're too tired but that's how capable they are if they're aware they're aware of what they're doing yeah with the other i've had this before where they've said they're in granny or grand or a child mounters house and they'll sleep that no problem they'll sleep all night yeah they won't do that for me why do they not do that? You know, I get that a lot as well. So they are capable of it. It's just been consistent.

I can't stress the point enough. Obviously, there's various different things and say that will determine the pattern over the course of time. If a parent has always given in, like, first of all, I want to point out, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with co-sleeping. And if a parent is happy with doing that,

that is absolutely fine. And I did co-sleep with my own children but where it's not working anymore that's where it becomes the negative sleep association I'd be very mindful you know about that if there's nothing wrong with it but that said like that parents are getting up for work and they've been disrupted all night and they just want their child no matter what age just to sleep in their bed or the cot for the night but it's just been consistent like there's a couple of things that as I said the temperament of the child makes a massive difference like four very different children my fourth was the the toughest out of the lot but I did I suppose give in an awful lot to her because it

was so busy with the other girls and and that makes a big difference. Like there's a couple of things that, as I said, will determine the pattern over the course of time. So say, for example, you're bringing the child up to the room and they want mommy and daddy to stay in the bed with them. And that's, the parent says no all of a sudden. So they're triggered by this and they just get, and then they get frustrated and upset. Okay, so that's their emotion.

And then the behavior is that they're going to cry and they're throwing things out of the bed or the cot, their toys, their suitors, whatever it is. And then it becomes all very, you know, stressful. And then the parent will give in. And I did this myself plenty of times. I'm no angel here. You give in, you say, oh, it's just easier.

I'll just lie with them. Okay, and then it's a pattern and then it becomes the same thing over and over and over and over again yeah but there's ways of changing that you know there is definitely oh I believe in that completely I think you know we can break any pattern in four days it's behavior yeah I think sometimes I would say and depends on the temperament obviously if the child like it can take longer i wouldn't say four days if i was to do this in four days i would be a miracle worker oh yeah no i i don't mean in terms of the sleep and i know that's a way bigger deal

definitely yeah you've definitely broken the back on it and i say that you know if you're really really consistent at the start but definitely sometimes the slower the better especially with the older ones because or if this is the only way they've ever known for years how to fall asleep and back to sleep in the night with a parent in the bed with them you know so you want to kind of really talk to them so this is where you change the pattern by talking to them you know when they're acting up crying getting upset one mommy and daddy to stay in the bed you know giving them giving them the emotional support you know but holding your boundaries is all i can say there you know this is what you want you're starting with say as i said that reward system is brilliant it's a really good idea make them involved in this new change

like if they haven't ever slept in their room say you know but i don't tell people to buy things but you know maybe buy new bed sheets or covers or something or a new security object and talk to them about it during the day yeah i always say exciting maybe yeah and stay to look forward to yeah the daytime talk kira like if we could end this first question with this like when you said it there, the daytime talk, like it is the equivalent of don't talk to somebody with a drinking problem when they've got drink on them. Don't talk to your child about sleep

just before they're going to sleep. It's the most irrational they're going to be. I love the idea as well of the lead up. They're like, Friday's the big day. We're going to have so much fun. You well of the lead up yes they're like friday's the big day we're gonna have so much fun you in your own room yeah and explain everything and the fairy door and that what we're gonna do and you've got your you know some people make the change probably at wrong times and your sibling might have come into the house and then they're trying to move the child out of their bed because this new baby's in the house you know you want to be fair and make

the decision and make it make it the right time as well you know and discuss it for the few days before and this is what's going to happen and explain it to them and make them involved yeah and respecting the child too isn't it you're respecting you're showing them respect and that they're you know and children really love that they like like being treated like, you know, I matter. Kids like respect. Sometimes it's hard to phone up so don't work with kids to understand that. Especially when you're at the end of your tent and you're going, no, you don't deserve respect.

You're wrecking my head. Well, let's get straight to question number two. Hey, Jarentina, so happy that you're doing this episode. I've been recommended your podcast by a friend and I'm currently binge listening. I love it. I've gotten so much useful info and tips so far. And we're trying out the serving bowl style dinner tonight. Honestly, I have a very high maintenance child.

I know we all do, but sometimes I feel we're on another level. We have a four and a half year old girl and a two and a half year old boy and sleep has always been a challenge for us. My daughter has slept through the night, I'd say between 10 to 15 times in her entire life. And I am not exaggerating. Now, when I was breastfeeding her, she always woke for night feeds up till around a year and a half. When she was weaned, she continued the waking and would end up being rocked or sang back to sleep or end up in our bed. She always woke at 5.30 or 6 o'clock in the morning. When she got her own room, big bed, we tried to make changes. We

wouldn't let her into our bed, but kept bringing her back to her own bed each time. This was around the time her little brother was born. Hooray! He had some awful sleep issues because of very bad reflux. God, he would scream for hours on end at night and wake us all up two and a half years later he still does this if he eats something that doesn't agree with him so we're all seriously sleep deprived at this time no matter how many times you put her back to her bed, she would just wake up an hour later and you might have to go with four to five night wakings. So we're talking no sleep here. She has to have one of us sit beside her to go to sleep. We sing.

Maybe we rub her back. We try to sneak out of the room once she's asleep. She's an extremely light sleeper. I feel that pain. We use subtitles to watch TV. We used to sneak out of the room once she's asleep. She's an extremely light sleeper. I feel that pain. We use subtitles to watch TV. We used to do that. There's a lot of people listening to this who do this. We used to do that.

Watch TV with subtitles on at night so that we don't wake her. You can't check on her during the night as that would wake her. Definitely can't have people over. Oh, my God. I can't even have guests. Oh, no. This is very tough. The voices will wake her. Definitely can't have people over. Oh my God. They can't even have guests. Oh no, this is very tough. Or the voices will wake her up.

So trying to leave her room after night wakings is next to impossible. We just gave up. We bought her a double bed and now she wakes. I just get into the bed with her. She also uses a soother to go to sleep which we have tried to phase out too and no success there has a grow clock for nightlight which is she completely ignores that's a shame because i love the grow clock we have tried phasing out the soother talking with her about trying to sleep on her own we tried this with one or two nights she gets so upset she works herself into a frenzy and vomits this is very this must be an extreme case here is it or do you see this all the time there yeah no i've had this loads of times oh my

goodness i am so shocked it's completely similar like not exactly the same but absolutely similar yeah wow because i i actually cried when i read this the first time. My heart broke for this mom because I just thought, how is she functioning? So let's skip down because she really gives, and we've sent this on to Ciara, so she knows the fine details of this email. And she says at the end, Ciara, that she has actually tried a few of the things that you've mentioned. She tried the fairies the books the audiobooks rewards we are so tired that we definitely have given in to many bad habits and that's fairly cool that you're willing to admit that she is an anxious little girl at the best of times mainly when

things don't go her way any tips you have on helping her to go to sleep alone and stay asleep alone would be much appreciated. Where do you start with that, Ciara? I think it'll be really reassuring for this mom to hear what Ciara just says, that she gets questions like this all the time. Oh, yeah.

Everyone thinks they're on their own. They're definitely not. A hundred percent. There's just so many people and things like this eventually has happened and depending on say the circumstances a lot going on here and i suppose she was trying things when she said her uh her her son was then with bad reflux and he'd be crying and i get this a lot

people don't want their other child to be crying and waking the other child so they give in and so it's hard to know I know she said she's tried the reward systems and things like this the grow clock grow clocks are very good but more so three year plus you know under three don't really understand the the grow clock and but is it consistency really is key and just not giving up and it's something like this on a child this age and it's ongoing for a long time and other issues. She would want to be starting at the very start and working very, very slowly through this. You know, there's something like this could take up to a month to sort out. You know, some people, I think, think we can have this all sorted in a week, something like this. You wouldn't. There's no way.

It sounds pretty extreme. Like she's making herself sick she gets so upset yeah so how would the month break down kira a child like this needs so much reassurance and consistency and knowing that this is all okay and this is the way it's going to be you know that she's she's the age she is she should she can as i said you're going to talk about this during the day obviously not just at night and spring it on her but talk about it in a way that this is the the new way she's going to fall asleep and for every single wake in the night you're going to do the exact same thing until after six in the morning i always say after six because right you know um you that is night time until after six yeah and if it means her coming in 20 times and a couple of nights later, it's 10 times.

You know, there is a little improvement. It's less. You know, just think of the little wins along the way. It's not going to, something like this on a child this age is not going to happen overnight, for sure. I wouldn't anticipate something like this. Her temperament is strong. She's getting herself into a frenzy, as you said.

She's vomiting. You know, I know that these things can happen. You know, it all depends on the child. So you really have to stay calm about this whole, you know, because babies and toddlers and children will pick up on parents' anxieties and stresses as well. You know, you need to stay calm about the whole thing. And say you got her into the bed at the start of the night and

then she's come walked into the parents room two three times I would always say walk her back say the silent the silent journey back just walk her back say nothing say your usual night night at sleep time and just be so consistent with that so tough though Ciara can I just love that so much because everything you say I completely agree with. We'll hold the phone here. I mean, that takes strength, Ciara. It does, yeah. How do you help parents who are like, I can't do the silent walk back. I feel like a prison guard when I do that.

It's so powerful when they get to that place. Sure, but how does Ciara help a mom or a dad like me with the softest heart who literally, I can't do it. I just can't do it. I mean, what do you say to them? What encouragement would you give someone who's going, yes, you're saying stay calm. Yeah. But when I'm this sleep deprived, I don't have that resource. These things are easier said than done.

And I know how hard it is. But I suppose being a mom of four children and going through situations like this, I know how hard it can be. But they need to see consistency, that everything's OK. They need the reassurance and to know that this is OK. This is not. Don't don't worry. It does come like I'm like i feel sometimes like i'm like the cheerleader at the at the side for the parents and whether you are like you know i'd get a message or an email saying i just i can't do this anymore it's it's too tough i'll email them

you know and just say look you're you're seeing improvements keep going like there's nothing worse than giving up you know because what have you? You've gained that they've just learned to cry harder. You know, you don't want that. You want them to see that this is OK, full of reassurance, try and stay calm and just keep doing the same thing over and over and over again. If you're kind of changing and say the fourth or the fifth night and you end up lying on the bed with them again, you know, you're confusing them as well. So I always say just be as consistent as possible so say for this woman like you know it's it's really really tough um for her say she's been sitting on the bed already I'd always suggest kind of moving to

another spot in the room and just stay obviously stay in the room with that child I probably wouldn't get the parent to leave the room into the second or third week. You know, it's not something that you do overnight. Certainly wouldn't just walk out and close the door after two or three nights. That's fantastic. Because then, like, obviously the parent feels so safe on this journey with you because they're afraid to change as much as the child. Yeah, I love the idea. It's about educating them as well and saying something like this is definitely not going to happen overnight. educating them as well and saying like something like this definitely not going to go happen overnight so if you're explaining the process yeah and and and kind of saying what's normal

like I I'd always tell parents and say someone's right and I've rang them on after the first consultation and say how did you get on and some people have said god actually I didn't think it would go as well it's going really well but I'll always say i'm very honest it's like a roller coaster it's ups and downs so they might be going really well for the first week and then the child no matter what age they two and a half three onwards will go oh right this is the way it's always going to be and then they kick off and then they get to the second week and that's when parents give up again and say oh it didn't work no that's the time where they need to see the consistency the most yeah we gotta double down then yeah there'll be delayed tactics they'll be saying no i want i want this they'll be throwing soothers or teddies out the

cot and yeah you know that is one thing i say don't don't ever pick up the things that they throw out that's like a delay tactic a game nearly for them give them the back needs versus once i always say like you know give them what they need definitely 100 i love you everything you're saying i'm like yes this is exactly what parents need don't give them what they always want and i still this is something that i say to my own kids like if they say that to mikey yeah if we need anything they'll they'll get what they need, but not just something that they want all the time, you know. And I think if you're consistent with that and explain the situation to them as well, and this is the way it's going to be, and then know that into the second week, that can be the toughest part because now they're like realizing, yeah, absolutely.

What I'm getting from you, though, is that not only are you going into these houses and helping them with the sleep there is there is no doubt that you are changing all kinds of behaviors because you're arming with these parents with what they need to cope with everything that's silent behavior that silent thing you're teaching them to do that works in every situation it's such a powerful tool to give these you two are like kindred spirits. Basically, Kerry, you're saying everything that Tina says about all kinds of behaviours on this show. I always encourage, no matter what age group, a really good bedtime routine. Wind down, especially children at this age. I would avoid screens and

TVs even the hour before the bedtime routine. A lovely reassuring bedtime routine and white noise music maybe this woman I don't know whether she uses white noise or music because she's she's watching the TV at night with subtitles on that could that could certainly help I'd always use white noise and where there's now I ask a question Kiera my own question because we used to live next door here's a little here's a little charlotte and tina story from when we lived in england and there was paper thin walls between us and the neighbor right oh great and next door we could hear a kid crying his eyes out he was

very tiny about like 6 30 in the evening he was being told this is bedtime that's that and i ain't coming back and i mean hear it it broke our hearts to the point where i used to take one of mikey's old music boxes and hold it up against the wall here's what i'm gonna think we're terrible people for doing that because we used to put him to sleep ourselves from our side of the house with the music. But the question is, though, is is there anything in this idea of self soothing? The idea that you let the kid cry it out? No, I don't do cry it out. Like there is a level of crying. Obviously, it's a child, a baby's way of communication.

And there is there's definitely ways around it. And I talk to the parents about that, how to manage it and and what to do and 100% don't agree with cry it out said never ever yeah I think it's right I never did it on my own children so I certainly wouldn't be asking anyone to do it and there's like the thoughts and the idea of closing the door and leaving your baby to cry it out no there is definitely it's all about reassurance and you're starting at the start of the night the bedtime routine reassuring them putting them down to sleep and like i focus on the routine especially with the younger ones who are still napping in the day because that can make a huge difference i can't stress the routine enough there is absolutely pointless putting an overtired baby who hasn't napped well in the day and then trying to do sleep training methods that's

pointless the point is separation your child is already already overtired yeah if your child is sick or teething very badly things like that you wouldn't want to start on that night either you know yeah i don't work with sick babies i wouldn't do it on my own children i certainly wouldn't expect anyone and i love what you keep saying about reassurance and support for that child. What I can't cope with the crying to sleep thing is the idea that there's a day or a moment in that little tiny person's life where they go, I guess the crying isn't working. I should just give up. I mean, that kills me. There's a moment where they go, what's the point? It has to impact them.

It has to imprint on them. It just has to impact them. It has to imprint on them. It just has to. That's why you want to start like where they're not, say, already overtired because the baby is going to get really upset and they just can't settle themselves to sleep. So why try and keep them in the cot

and tell them not to sleep? Tina does do the cry it out method when it comes to me. That's what I find extraordinary. You have no idea what I have to put up with this man. Hey, Jarentina, what about a two, nearly three-year-old who will

only sleep in a chair next to his bed? Now, I couldn't believe this. That's the cutest thing ever, though. Yeah, but like, there's also something quite sad about a child sleeping in a chair when he's got a gorgeous bed next to him. Yeah, he falls asleep.

He's just an old soul. Maybe. You're picturing him wearing a pair of glasses. I am. I'm picturing a pipe and slippers and an armchair. I very much doubt that this mom finds it funny at this point. He falls asleep in the chair as we read a story and then we sneak out and leave him in the chair yeah well it sounds like that's the only way

to get him to sleep I love the end have we broken him have we broken him is the question break the chair I mean sure Kira I bet you get that too it's like I get that all the time. My kids. Yeah, yeah. No, I get that. So what's your answer to this question? Look, I definitely like where we've touched on before. I would start out definitely talking to the child about, you know, going into his bed. Maybe for this little one, buying something new for the room or the bed or a new bed or do they cover something that will will he'll enjoy or look forward to about his new space in his new room not in sleeping in a chair that's not you know

appropriate he's fallen asleep and then he's probably waking out they're sneaking out and he's staying in the chair it would be best to start the night and fall asleep in the bed himself so like taking the steps like as i said talk to him about that he's going to be sleeping in the bed you know start out by sitting beside the bed reading the story what not in the chair take the chair out of the room maybe and but talking to him about this doing the bedside or the the story on the bed beside him and then and moving further away right and letting him know that where you are in the room until he goes to sleep you know rather than sneaking out I suppose

I'd always be all about reassurance the whole way through and then eventually leaving the room that one day that you are bringing him up you're putting him into bed you're doing your bedtime routine you're you're tucking him in saying good night giving him a kiss and walking out of the room but that would take time obviously it does take time especially with the older ones super achievable though I think when you say how you say reassurance and consistency yeah and moving further away with less intervention over the course of time so you're not going to just do this in a week but like moving further and further away from the bed or the cot until you're one night bringing him into the room and he away from the bed or the cot until you're one night bringing him into the room and he's happy to go to sleep himself and you're you know at that you

could be at the door for a couple of days or you could be just outside the door enough for him to know and once you're outside the door you could be just saying i'm still here they know you're there you're putting away clothes or doing whatever they still know you're there and then a couple of days later start moving yourself down the stairs and but that he knows that you're there and that everything's okay and everything's consistent he's just learned that it's normal to fall asleep in the chair and then the parents leave yeah like look who doesn't like being read to uh before they go to sleep i mean dina here goes to sleep if i talk to her you have a very soothing voice very bad very bad man flu today uh so sorry apologies for my voice well I want to ask Kira something though Kira how do you feel about cameras then you know like

baby monitors using them while they're older in a way of reassuring them from a distance when you're sleep training them. Is that a no-no? I suppose it's not necessarily a no-no. I think every parent is different. I would have only used me personally monitors when they were younger and at night time, say I was downstairs. I never used the monitors all during the night. Like my room was always next to them so I could hear them. And I think parents get disrupted sleep.

Babies and toddlers will wake or, you know, let out a moan or a cry. And, you know, that's broken sleep for the parent. If they're listening to that, babies will fall back to sleep themselves. Some people are going in too quickly. I think, you know, they might let out a yelp. And then especially in the early part of the morning, say five o''clock in the morning where every baby or child will go into a lighter sleep and then they're running in and then they're being wide awake overstimulated ready to start the day yeah yeah try and leave them you know to go back to sleep and and most will go back to sleep

that in itself is amazing advice because so many people don't know that they just don't know do they that's totally up to the parents what they want to do you know and i wouldn't if they're if they feel better about having the monitor in the room and watching uh their child during the night totally fine there's nothing wrong with it if that's what they want to do personally i wouldn't um i've used it yeah with older children and things like that yeah full disclosure we were terrible with the monitor because we we had a very tricky start with mikey and it really scared the life out of me and uh we we got rid of our monitor okay i got we didn't have it on during the night now to be fair it's just on on in case it used to come on i had to wrestle it like he was nine that is my shame that is the biggest shame i have and the babysitter used to

come to the house and be like you still have the monitor and i'm like nine oh my god she'd be like i i used to say to her sure makes your job so easy you don't even have to come here oh my god i got rid of all that stuff yeah i, I know. It is my shame. It is my biggest shame. There's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong. Okay. Well, here is my only thing with that, right, Ciara, was that one, our little boy felt very safe. He did. When he knew, he could just go, Mom,

and literally just go, Mom, I think I heard something. And know that you were going to be there in a flash, that there wasn't going to be the tiptoe out of a, through a dark room stumbling over lego yeah so i kind of went along with it in that in that in that sense yeah but he knew like he knew you were there and that's the important part like and it wasn't the video wasn't on right we when he got older i don't okay this is such a relation of his privacy like for a child but um you know what it's funny when you i had a trauma happen to me with mikey and i can't believe it took me nine years but it did it took me nine years to be able to sleep without thinking i need to be able to hear him breathe you know i'm sure you deal with that too i've never dealt with that i've never seen the likes of tina i'm so embarrassed i shared

that we've got so many more questions to get through let's let's hammer on to next question okay this is our last question right okay how how to stop my three-year-old sneaking into our bed now this is this is a sneaky one right because there'll be those that come in and go mommy with the rubbing of the eyes. And you're like, all right, get in. But this little dude is doing a full Ocean's Eleven to get into the bed at four in the morning. She won't go back to sleep in her own bed.

If we take her back, she's out and into our bed. And very squirmy. I mean, that's the other thing, is that people think, oh, yeah, the kid comes into our bed and very squirmy i mean that's the other thing is that people think oh yeah the kid comes into my bed but some parents aren't getting sleep once the kid is in their bed because the kid is starfishing or swastika swastika people will know what that is it's the verb where your kid does the running man in the bed. I've heard parents complain about that. What do you say to this kind of George Clooney kid that is sneaking out the door and getting into the bed unbeknownst to the parents?

I know, yeah. So I'm not sure, is she waking up? She obviously is. If the child is super squirmy in the bed, she knows this happens a a lot and it's like at the start of the night what I said what you're doing for every at the start of the night for every single wake until after six is just to keep going back keep going back I've had parents who say this all the time and they don't think they'll ever be able to break that cycle of them coming in

at that time four and five o'clock in the morning is the hardest time, I suppose. And I know from my own experience, and you do anything for sleep at that point to get on with your day. But that's the time to keep walking them back. Keep walking the child back to the room. Yeah, to kind of make it more hassle for them than it's worth. Yeah, and just know that, you know,

this is the way it is. No, you're not sleeping on our bed. I've had, like, to this day, and I'll admit, you've admitted about your monitor. I'll admit this. When my kids are sick, no matter what age,

I've had a 13 year old in bed beside me. If they've had temperatures or were sick, I do bring my kids into the bed if I'm worried about them. Okay. So I am the sleep consultant that will admit this. And I don't mind because look I

just like to keep an eye on them and put the broken sleep at the move and so my 13 year old was tossing and turning in the bed and I went I just obviously not everyone's sleeping with a 13 year old but I was worried about it that night but my seven year old did this a couple of weeks ago and I allowed it and I said oh it's kind of nice like she's she never does this here I'll just let her in and then it happened the next night and it happened the third night and I was like right she this is becoming a habit now so I had to just say no because I couldn't I couldn't um have her in the bed it's just she was moves around she's kicking you uh no one's getting a rest and I just said right that's it back to the basics the sleep consults

that I had to do myself and my own seven-year-old a couple of weeks ago and just saying this is the way it is no you're going back and I just kept walking her back and she didn't come back in again that's amazing it would have been terrible here let's be honest would have been like Alan Carr smoking a fag you know saying my 13-year- old sleeps in with me by the way after 55 minutes of the episode if it emerges she's in a terrible position with her own kids but it's also reality of being a mom and that's what you can share with your clients of course your child's going to come in the odd time that's a reality it's just not making it the habit and i love that yeah exactly you don't have bad dreams yeah what would

you bad dreams or things like that and that's fine and they should be able to come to you and in fact when I'm helping people potty train their children I'm like you've got to be prepared to get out of bed at night and help them to go toilet like they need to be able to rely on you they need to be able to go mom I need the toilet and you help them otherwise they will wet the bed because they'll be afraid to do it you want your child to be able to come to you when they need you yes you know and if that's in the middle of the night they've had a bad dream absolutely give them the reassurance you don't want it to become a problem or this is an issue for for you and your child is always coming into the bed and some will just use that as an excuse so i got in the last time i said it

was a bad dream you know and this and then keeps going and going and going but you could do what my parent do was just lock the door she is super busy and if you want to contact her and make a booking or get in touch. It's very easy wherever you are in the world. She doesn't need to come to your house. Taylor, T-A-Y-L-O-R, madebabies.ie. But Tina's talking about how Mikey got wise to her dialogue around education and behavior and that he would turn the language against her, which to me said that we were having discussions in front of them that we shouldn't have i i'd be big into you know what adults and parents talk about should be kept

you know keep that chat to yourself but obviously parents are waking up in the morning they're they're tired or they're exhausted and they're bad form and you know you can take it out on your children as well like unfortunately when you you're exhausted and but to try and just stay calm about the whole thing with the child and explain them to them what they can understand, whether it's a two and a half year old right up to four or five, six year old, just, you know, keeping it. This is your big girl now, big boy now. This is your bed. You're staying in the bed for the night and just been really consistent

in the process there. And as I said, all those little things that I said about a really good bedtime routine, having the chat in the day, been really consistent at the night. And, you know, if you're seeing changes after three, four days, great. It might not be perfect. You might have had 10 weeks, but that's better than the 20 that you had. You know, keep keep going with that and yeah I nearly think the way you say that the child needs a reinforcer I think maybe some of

these grown-ups need to have a visual a reinforcer for themselves too something to keep them going motivated yeah that's me I'm on the other end of the phone keep going oh yeah well yeah you absolutely I mean honestly Ciara i just think your job is wonderful and i just love that there's someone like you out there helping these moms i know you helped a very close friend of mine a lady i adore and she just said you changed her life and i just think what a thing to be able to do for somebody and if you've any doubts over what you've just heard here as i said go to that website and just read a couple of these testimonials. Ciara, you're clearly brilliant at what you do.

Thank you so much for taking the time to do. Honey, you are ruining our kid. And I hope you'll come back at some other point. Well, I will. I'd love to. Oh, we'd love to have you back on. It's been really lovely. Well, we could do the younger babies the next time.

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Well, that's our show for this week. We'll be back next week, as always, on the Go Loud app and on every platform where you get podcasts. You can find more Irishman Abroad podcasts over at patreon.com forward slash Irishman Abroad and support us in continuing to make this show.

Tina, thanks again for doing this. And thanks for finding Ciara. Oh, well, I'm lucky. We're very lucky to have found Ciara, I think. Thank you so much, Ciara, for coming on. Not a problem at all. Thank you so much. Honey, You're Ruining Our Kid is an Irishman Abroad podcast presented in association with

Go Loud, editing, research and production by Jarlik and Tina Regan. To support the continued creation of this podcast and to hear even more Irishman Abroad podcasts, including extra bonus episodes of Honey, You're Ruining Our Kid, why not consider supporting us on patreon.com forward slash Irishman Abroad today. Finally, don't forget you can come and see Jarla and Tina in person at Liberty Hall in Dublin on January 6th. Jarzilla is Jar's brand new show about life, raising kids and everything else in between. He wants to film it in front of sound people like you. Tickets are available now from Ticketmaster.ie. Don't forget to email Tina your questions on Honey You Are Ruining Our Kid at gmail.com because hey, let's face it, it's hard to raise kids not to be gobshites.