How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Failure Throwback: Geena Davis

Episode Date: January 8, 2025

The final episode in our run of throwback episodes is the one and only Geena Davis - this one went out on 9th November 2022. This is what I wrote at the time: I am obsessed with today's guest and I'm not even going to pretend otherwise. Geena Davis, the star of such seminal movies as Tootsie, Beetlejuice, Thelma & Louise, A League of Their Own and the underrated classic, The Long Kiss Goodnight, TURNED UP AT MY ACTUAL HOUSE to record a witty, warm and fascinating conversation.* We talk about her feelings of imposter syndrome and self-doubt in the early days of her career, the fact that her failure as a model led to her first film role alongside Dustin Hoffman (who gave her incredible advice on how to defend herself against the amorous advances of her male co-stars) and the revelation of being diagnosed with ADD in her 40s. Along the way, we touch on height (she's 6ft! A tall woman like me!), the #MeToo movement, representation, almost becoming an Olympic archer, being an older mother and the seismic impact her friendship with Susan Sarandon had on Davis's life. I can't wait for you all to listen. *yes, she met my ginger cat Huxley and they got along famously. HOW TO FAIL PRESENTED BY HAYU LIVE TOUR tickets: www.fane.co.uk/how-to-fail Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is all about personal growth and self-discovery, and travel can play a big part in that. Last summer, I was lucky enough to make an incredible trip to Italy, where I ate the best caponata I've ever tasted, all cooked by local chefs using the freshest produce. I loved exploring off the beaten track, and climbing the hills outside Cortina to find a hidden convent I never would have discovered otherwise. You can create memories like this with Explore Worldwide, who run authentic small group adventures perfect for solo travellers looking to meet like-minded people and experience the authentic side of their chosen destination.

With over 350 tours in around 100 countries to choose from, their local tour leaders take you to the destination's best-kept secrets so you can get the most authentic experience. If you're considering going to Italy yourself, why not book a tour with explore worldwide like the Amalfi Coast Walking Tour, the highlights of Puglia, or maybe Venice to Rome by rail? Sounds amazing. Visit explore.co.uk to learn more. Hello lovely listeners. Here is the last of my specially curated episodes from my archive, especially for you.

Today, it's the irrepressible Gina Davis. I love this episode because she opens up for one of the first times about what it was like being diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and also because she came to my house for the recording and my cat Huxley took an instant shine to her. And as I said to her at the time, I think it's because they share a colouring. She has a reddish tint to her hair and so does he. Thanks so much for listening and I hope you love it as much as I and Huxley did. Gina Davis is not your conventional Hollywood movie star. First off she's tall

and as we know most celebrities are absolutely tiny. Then there's the fact she speaks fluent Swedish and almost competed in the Olympics as part of the US archery team. She once decorated a guest bedroom with 50 cuckoo clocks, and as an actor she's played a woman whose boyfriend was transformed into a fly and the adoptive mother of an animated mouse. In her 40s, she launched an institute to call for greater diversity and gender parity on screen,

which saw her collect an honorary Oscar and Emmy. Born and raised in Massachusetts, she studied drama at Boston University and after failing to graduate, found work as a model in New York, which eventually led to her being cast in her first movie role in Tootsie alongside Dustin Hoffman. The fly and Beetlejuice followed. Davis won an Academy Award for her part in The Accidental Tourist in 1988,

but arguably it was her performances in Thelma and Louise and A League of Their Own that would leave their mark on generations of women to come, myself included. Her witty and revealing new memoir, Dying of Politeness, has just been published. In it, she writes, "'My whole life I couldn't bear the idea that I'd be caught out not knowing how to do something. In many, many cases, I've just pretended

like I already knew how to do something in case it was shameful not to know how to do whatever it was. Gina Davis, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to have you here. And I had to cut down the introduction because there was so much I wanted to say. And I was like, no, we need to get to the actual interview. But one of the things I didn't mention was how much

I absolutely loved The Long Kiss Good Night. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. Thank you, me too. And you basically play a female Jason Bourne in that before Jason Bourne was even a twinkle in anyone's eye. Right, right. So I loved it. And you were a badass assassin and you did most of your own stunts, didn't you?

Yes, yes I did, I did. And is that what you mean when you said that quote there, that idea of faking it till you make it? As actors, you often ask things like, oh, can you ride a horse? And did you often say yes, even if you couldn't? Well, yeah, I sort of had this philosophy that I could learn pretty much anything that was needed.

And fortunately, I got a lot of parts where I had to have some skill that I didn't have. And so for Lungus Goodnight, I studied taekwondo and I had to learn ice skating because there's a scene where I'm killing people on ice and then pistol shooting, of course, and all that. And then I had to learn sword fighting and horseback riding for Cutthroat Island. So I've had to learn a lot of skills. And baseball for a league player?

And baseball, yes, that was the big one. Yeah, that was the first time I had to learn a real skill for a role. And did it teach you that your capacity was greater than you might have thought for learning new things? Oh, absolutely, especially sports, especially physical things, because growing up so tall, I call it being physically shy. I didn't want to do things that would cause people to, you know, attract even more attention. I was busy trying to be take up less space in the world. And so I wasn't on the girls basketball team or anything like that. And I assumed that I was

probably uncoordinated. But when I had to learn baseball for that movie, all of a sudden, it was like, I mean, the coaches were saying, wow, you're really gifted athletically at us. Oh my God, I did not know this. So it was incredible. This whole other side to you that you discovered as an adult is wonderful.

That idea of being scared to take up too much space is a recurring theme throughout your brilliant memoir, Dying of Politeness, which as it says on the tin is about the fact that you, I hope, I'm not overstepping here, but that you're an inveterate people pleaser and it was more important for you to be polite than actually to say how you felt. And there are lots of examples of that during the book. Yes. But one of the funniest and also the most terrifying comes when you're about eight years old and you're in a car. Will you tell us that story?

Right. Well, that's when I came very close to literally dying of politeness. I was in my great uncle's car with my parents. We were in the backseat. And great Uncle Jack and great Aunt Marion were in the front. And 99-year-old Uncle Jack was driving at night. we were in the back seat and great uncle Jack and great aunt Marion were in the front and 99 year old uncle Jack was driving at night and that didn't work out very well as you

can imagine. It was thankfully a nearly empty road and very narrow and he kept veering into the oncoming traffic lane and then veering back into our lane and my parents didn't say anything about this, didn't say, hey, you know, Jack, maybe I should drive, or nothing like that. So then, eventually, a car was coming on the other side in the other direction, and he veered into their lane. And there was nowhere for them to go to get away from us

because it was so narrow. But my parents still said nothing. And we were going to have a head-on collision with this car. And at the last instant, Marion said, a little to the right, Jack. And he just veered over to the right. And they zoomed past us with inches of clearance. And so I only later realized they would have rather died than say anything. Forget about saying,

oh my god, you're going to kill us, pull over. My dad could have said a little to the right, Jack, you know, politely. But that was too much. That was too much. It's fascinating because I know that you have a brother, Dan, but I wonder whether you feel that this expectation of politeness and pliability is a gendered thing. Is it more expected of women than men? Well, I can only talk about my family, but it was expected of Dan as well. My dad was insanely polite and kind and generous and would never ask for anything. I was taught to never, basically never have needs, never ask for anything. I was taught to never, basically never have needs,

never ask for anything. The point was to not be trouble to someone else. More than just being polite by saying please and thank you, it was about being utterly self-effacing. Like I don't have any needs, I'm not hungry, don't feel you have to put yourself out for me was the idea. And I will do whatever I can to meet your needs, person asking me.

Yeah. So then how does that translate later on in the movie industry? Because I know that you've had experiences with men who have asked things of you where you haven't always felt that you can stand up for yourself. And by the way, if I were a Hollywood superstar, one can only dream, I would have been exactly the same. Right, right. It's so hard to do in the moment.

Right, right, because the whole thing is about wanting to get jobs and feeling like people must like you in order to hire you and want to work with you. And I think in that circumstance, it is more incumbent upon women, the feeling that I have to be really nice and really cooperative and never cause any trouble or they won't hire me.

But I don't think that male actors feel that as much as we do. Tell us about Susan Sarandon in Thelma and Louise. Obviously we have to talk about Thelma and Louise. And there was this moment where you knew you had things that you wanted to raise about the script from the director Ridley Scott. And you were thinking, oh, how can I best put this?

And coming up with a litany of mitigating words. Right, right. And then what happened? Yes, I planned very carefully about each little tiny thing that I wanted to bring up. I'll say this one as if I'm making a joke, but then he might think, hmm, but actually that's a good point. I'll try to make him think this was his idea. It was crazy. And then I met Susan Sarandon for the first time. It was blown away immediately just by her poise and presence. So we sit down and we're just going to page through the script and see if there's anything

we want to talk about. And Susan immediately says, you know this line, I think we should just cut it. And it sounds so innocuous, but to me it was like, what just happened? She just started out, launched right in saying, I want to cut a piece of the script. And I looked at her and was like, how's he going to react? And he just said, oh yeah, actually that's a good idea. Yeah, let's take that out. And I was like, what am I watching here?

This is like a different planet or something. And the whole afternoon was like that. And then the whole experience of shooting the movie was like that, to watch the way she very comfortably and naturally moved through the world to no one's shock or horror. That was the other part was not only seeing her say what she thought easily and comfortably, but to see that people didn't fall over and react like, oh my God, she's actually speaking her thoughts. Because I was so trained to never, never voice your opinion.

Did you ever have a conversation, or have you had a conversation recently with Susan about how she got to be like that? Gosh, we must have, back in the beginning, 30 years ago. But I think it was that she was always like that. She was the first born, I believe, and she just had always been like, I mean, maybe

it was her upbringing. Maybe in her family that was completely normal. You have always described yourself as a feminist, even when it was untrendy to do so. And I think for a lot of listeners, it will be shocking to hear that. But I remember this very vividly in the 90s and early 2000s to say if you were a woman in the public eye that you were unapologetically feminist, people thought that that was quite shocking. Yes. Yes. And I remember I once had a female actor complain after I had written a piece about her in which

I described her as feminist with all words that she had used. And she said, could you tone it down a bit because I want to sound a bit less feminist. Oh. Right? Wild. Yes. Because times happily have changed. But my experience as a woman is that I feel more radicalized as a feminist the older I get.

Yeah. Has that been your experience? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I worked with Polly Bergen, was very well known. Back in the day, she played my mother on something, and she was about 80.

And I couldn't believe how she behaved on set with so salty and making such vulgar remarks and just saying all this stuff. And I said, wow, you really just, whatever you feel like saying, you say it. She said, honey, when you get to be my age, you don't get me shit. So I was like, all right, then when I get to be that age, I'm going to let loose also. But yeah, definitely, definitely. You just experience it when it builds up.

Yeah. And how's that been your experience of aging? Has it been liberating for you rather than anything else? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I feel like every year that goes by, I feel more like myself. There's less need to try to convince everybody that I'm the nicest person in the world and all that kind of stuff.

Well, you are very nice and very delightful. And you don't even need to try with me, Gina. This podcast is obviously all about failure. And in popular culture, there is a very, very visible symbol of what seems to be success, which is winning an Oscar. Oh. You are one of the rare people who has actually won an Oscar, and I can ask this question of,

what does it feel like? Does it genuinely feel like a wholehearted success, and does that feeling last? It did. I didn't even think about what it would feel like. I certainly didn't expect it to happen so early. But yes, it made me feel really good. The reaction for me was, well, partly it was,

OK, I got that out of the way. I don't have to spend decades wondering if I'll ever get an Oscar because I did that early. So I don't have to worry about that. But also, it was validating. It really was. You felt seen. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. That theme of visibility recurs throughout your career because the Gina Davis Institute, which I mentioned in the introduction, has done phenomenal amounts of work for the visibility of women on screen. And I would love just to hear from you a little bit about that work and specifically how powerful it is when we see ourselves represented on screen. Right, absolutely.

It started because I became aware, suddenly when I had a little daughter, I became aware of this giant gender imbalance in the TV shows and videos and things made for little kids, for the youngest kids. And I couldn't believe it. I was absolutely stunned. I figured, I mean, I knew there was terrific gender imbalance in the industry, but I just

assumed that kids things would at least be balanced, you know, because they're supposed to be educational and well thought out and all that. And so I was kind of horrified and it made me think, wait a minute. So we all have this unconscious gender bias and we're teaching kids from the beginning to have it. If we're showing boys and girls

that girls take up less space and don't do as many interesting and important things, then the message just sinks in. So that's what spurred me to originally start to launch the Institute. And my firm belief was not only if we change what kids see from the beginning it will lessen this gender discrimination, but if we show kids somebody that looks like them doing something interesting or important, they'll say, wait a minute, I can do that too.

And also not only will it have that impact on girls, but boys will say, oh, I see girls can do that too, instead of being like, what? Girls can't do that. Only boys can do it. And it's absolutely true. We've proven it with all kinds of research that if it happens on screen, it will happen in real life. That's what I love as a kind of data geek.

It is so fascinating. So the popularity of the Hunger Games, there was a direct correlation in terms of girls taking up archery. Yes, we studied that. And the CSI thing. Yes, yes. Which is that forensic science there are loads of women who pursue it because of CSI.

Right, it's called the CSI effect. And tell us about the commander-in-chief effect. Yes, well so unfortunately my administration was very short. I really wanted two terms out of it but I didn't't get that. This is you playing a female president. The first female president. In a TV series. In a TV series, yes. And there was a survey done after the show was on, and it found that people were 58% more likely to vote for a female president than before the show.

So just one show with one character and it had that much impact. I'm sure it didn't last because you need to be reminded. It normalizes things. If you see it on the screen, it becomes normalized. And you know, if Commander-in-Chief had still been running when Hillary Clinton stood for election, then who knows what might have happened. It's true. Instead, we became familiarized with Donald Trump through The Apprentice. And so we started thinking of him as our crazy uncle at the wedding, who seems familiar,

but ultimately deranged. It's my reading. Okay, so before we get onto your failures, I just wanted to say, I salute you for being so gracious about all of your exes in your memoir. Oh, thank you. You are very nice and very kind about them. And I was like, now that is a grown woman. Because I'm a terrible grudge bearer.

Oh, I see. And I definitely feel like if I'd written this kind of memoir, I'd have settled some old scores. Yeah. Well, yeah, I didn't want to do that. Let's get onto your failures. So your first- Assuming I have some evidently, I guess.

I mean, I know. I know it's a difficult thing for you to do. Your first failure, and I'm so glad you've chosen this, having read about it in Dying of Politeness, is this school exchange to Sweden that you went on. Yes. So what happened? So, my junior year in high school,

the school announced that they were going to start a foreign exchange program, and did anybody want to apply? And I immediately, desperately wanted to do that. I'd never even heard of it before, but I think it was that I would have a chance to reinvent myself early instead of waiting till I go away to college or something

because I just felt like I was carrying this burden of being a little bit of a weirdo and I had, you know, I made all my clothes and I just didn't fit in exactly. I mean, kids liked me, but I wasn't, I think I was viewed as a little bit odd. And I think I thought if I go somewhere else, they won't know that about me.

They won't have grown up with me, and maybe they will perceive me differently. So I immediately convinced my parents to see if we could afford to do that. And the only option they gave me as far as where to go was Sweden. They had a family in Sweden that was interested in having someone come there.

So I was like, great, absolutely. Where is that? Okay. I mean, Sweden had never even entered my consciousness, but I was going to go there for a year. Anyway, I get on the plane and I'm waving goodbye to my parents at the airport, you know, and I suddenly realized, hang on. So in other words, I'm not going to see a single person I know for a year. So before it even left the ground, I was like, I've made a horrible mistake. And I got there, called my parents to tell them

I got there safely, but all I could say was, I've made a horrible mistake, I have to come home immediately on the next plane, can you find out when the next plane is?" And they were like, well, no, come on, stick it out. So that was horrifying. And then two days later, I started Swedish high school, only two days after I got there, and suddenly realized, oh, high school is in Swedish. It's like, how could I never have thought,

plus how could the organizers of this thing never have thought about what exactly is going to happen? Because I just, I'm sitting there in class that's in Swedish, and I'm thinking, what am I supposed to do? I asked the teacher after the class, do you know what I'm supposed to do? She was like, I just don't know.

I can't teach in English, you know what I'm supposed to do? She was like, I just don't know. I can't I can't teach in English You know just for you. So I had to learn it very fast. So you were 17 Yeah, okay, and this is an era before Mobile phones before the internet. Oh, yeah No before any of that so your communication with your parents was via letter and the occasional phone call, landline call? Yeah, just on holiday, like Christmas and my birthday. So talk us through those first few weeks of how you felt. Oh, I was so homesick and so weirded out, you know, about, I just felt lost.

Like, what am I supposed to do here? How am I going to make this work? But I asked somebody, what's the homework? And I would look up every single word in the dictionary and like translate the textbook. And it started classes in the evenings and the family talked Swedish to me a lot and taught me words, but it was utter total immersion.

And also it's totally different. Swedish is not an easy language to learn. It's so phenomenally different and the culture of Sweden is different. Even the weather is different. Everything is very age. The closest comparison I have in my own life, which is by no means a direct comparison, is that I was sent to Russia as a 12-year-old for a month. No, you weren't. Really? Yes. In 1990.

What was the idea? So I had been learning Russian at school. I went to school in the north of Ireland and bizarrely this school taught Russian and I thought, well, that sounds cool. So I signed up to learn Russian. But I'd only been doing it for a weekly lesson for a few months. And my parents, who are adventurous spirits and great believers in the power of language,

thought, oh, wonderful idea, we'll send her to Russia with a family. And I so related to the bit in your book where you arrive and you suddenly like, oh my goodness, this is so different. I was on the top floor of a tower block and I hardly had any words at my disposal. And the one thing that I do remember is they showed me around the rooms and I kept saying, it's Vskvstnya, Vskvstnya, because I thought that meant lovely. Actually, it means delicious.

So I was basically just saying, oh, this bedroom is delicious. Thank you so much. Oh, that's so cute. But like you, the only means of contact I have with my parents is letters. Yes. And I don't know whether you feel this, but I sometimes still have bad dreams, like nightmares, where I think I'm back and it's my first morning in Russia and I've just woken up and the knowledge has suddenly settled around my shoulders that I'm actually so far away from home.

Right, right. No, I haven't had those kind of dreams, but I can understand, yeah. Now, I came back fluent in Russian, so I imagine that you're completely fluent in Swedish. Yeah, I mean, it's so long ago now. It was, you know, 74. But yeah, it's stuck in my hard drive somehow. So when did it turn around for you? Because I know that it ended up being a positive experience.

Yes, yes. Well, within about two months, I could understand most of what people were saying. I could get along and start to understand what the teachers were saying and all that. And by Christmas, I pretty much could read the textbooks and say whatever I needed to say. By January, I was dreaming in Swedish.

I learned to, probably this is like you with Russian, but I learned to think in Swedish. Like I didn't have to translate anymore. And I still can think in Swedish. That's so cool. Isn't it interesting? Yes. My best friend is half Swedish.

Really? Yes, and she believes she's very shaped by the sort of Swedish psychology.? Yes, and she believes she's very shaped by the Swedish psychology. Because they, my understanding from her is that they have a different way of metabolizing emotions, where sometimes they just won't have the emotion, they'll go and bury it in the forest, is what she always says. Oh, interesting. But I wonder how much the Swedish national character, if there is such a thing, affected

you. Did it make you think about yourself differently or life differently? I can't say that I noticed that as much as that speaking a different language, I feel like a different person when I'm speaking Swedish a little bit because I guess it's a different part of my brain

or something, but that person was always more confident and yeah, I don't know. We had a very good impact on me overall, very much so. Yeah. Yeah. And also when you're speaking a foreign language, people don't have a set of prejudices or assumptions attached to your accent.

Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Although I picked up Swedish with the accent of the local area that I was from, because when I meet people and have a conversation with them, they say, where did you live? And I say, Sandvik. And they're like, you sound like you're from there.

Yeah, which is interesting. Are you big in Scandinavia? They must love you there. I guess, yeah. Yeah. Well, also I married a Finn, ready on my life, so I have a whole connection with Scandinavia. And would you ever star in a Scandinavian noir? Oh my God. All I want to do is be in a movie in Swedish because who gets to act in a different language? I think it's pretty rare and I would love to do that. I would love you to do that. Do you watch Scandi Box sets where it's like female detectives in knitwear solving crimes?

Yes. I'm obsessed with them. And you don't have to read the subtitles. Yes, that's right. Lucky you. So do you think Sweden left you understanding that you had a capacity for reinvention? Yeah, I think so. I think it was really, it really was what I hoped that it would be,

that it was a chance to start from scratch and reinvent myself. I even, you know, I bought clothes, especially for the trip, and, you know, and I felt different in these new clothes and all that. It was really a remarkable experience. Because you already knew by this point that you wanted to act. Yes. And I suppose the capacity for reinvention is a very useful thing for an actor. And so maybe it cemented that.

Maybe yes, yeah. I mean, I don't remember not wanting to be an actor. How interesting. I always, always wanted to be an actor. And we're using the word actor very consciously here because you hate the word actress, don't you? Well, I feel like we don't need it. That S on the end of things like poetess or doctoress as a signal of female, you know, I just feel like we don't need that.

I'm really bothered by when there's a thing, it's male. And if a woman is going to do it, you have to change the word. Even basketball, you know, when women do it you have to change the word. Even basketball, you know, when women play it it's women's basketball but playing basketball is men playing. You know, just all those things bug me. It's othering. Yes. Othering.

Yeah. I know it's probably really annoying but will you say something in Swedish? Will you just say I'm thrilled to be on this podcast talking about failure? In Swedish. If you can. Yes. Oh, let me see. thrilled to be on this podcast talking about failure? In Swedish? If you can, sorry. Yes, let me see. Or anything, I wouldn't know. You could tell me anything in Swedish.

Yes, you would know what I'm saying. I like talking to you. It's so fun. Oh, I love it. It just sounds so good. I know. The way people said my name in Sweden was Yina. Yina. So I like being Yina. And you couldn't just say Yina. That wouldn't sound the same. No, no, because they have that little bit when they speak.

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Talking of acting, that brings us onto your second failure, which is not being a top model. Yes. So you, Gina Davis, had a very clear plan of how you were going to become an actor. What was it? Yes. So this came to me when I was in college studying acting and all my friends wanted to be in play, you know, theatre. We were theater

majors and I knew that I wanted to be in films instead and nobody told me, you know, maybe you should move to LA once you graduate, you know. I just had no clue what I was supposed to do to get jobs in movies so at the time Christy Brinkley and Lauren Hutton also were getting roles in movies. And I thought, okay, so that means if I become a famous model, they'll just give me parts in movies. They'll just throw parts my way. So I'll just become a famous model because it's like so much easier to become a supermodel than an actor, I guess. So that was my goal.

Yes, and I couldn't just be a model. I needed to be a very famous model in order for people to notice me and want to put me in movies. So by this stage in your life, are you feeling friends with your physical appearance? Have you now realized that you are beautiful? Well, well, no, not really, but obviously I still thought that I could potentially be a famous model because I don't know, that I could trick people into thinking I was beautiful

or something. I knew, I mean, I knew I was tall enough, but then even when I started modeling and I did a lot of bathing suits and underwear suits and things like that, and I thought, it didn't make me think, wow, people are paying me a lot of money because they like how my body looks. I thought, okay, so I know how to trick people into thinking I have a good body because I know how to stand or hide my flaws or something. So it was weird, it was strange, you know, that I had this idea that I could be a very successful model while still thinking that I wasn't attractive.

But you also seem like an extremely hard worker. Yes. Yeah, and so maybe it's the combination of, I know I can work really hard at this and I'm really good at tricking people because actually I'm a huge fraud, I'm a massive imposter, but no one else has realized yet so I must be doing a good job at tricking. Exactly. Has that sense of imposter syndrome ever left you? It impacted so much of my life but I think it has left me, although I have to say doing press for the book and people say lovely things about it, it's always like, oh gosh, you know. It's uncomfortable a little bit, like really?

So do you feel uncomfortable with compliments? Or it's just that you don't believe them? No, I mean, it's just that I maybe think they're going too far or something, you know. It's uncomfortable to admit that I am actually good at things. Although I think I am, I think I know that I am. You admit it in such a beautiful way that it doesn't in any way sound arrogant. I mean you're so far the opposite end of the spectrum from arrogant that you could do with just five percent of like male entitlement. Right, right. And you would still be utterly delightful and

so don't worry about it. Yes, yes, okay. It sounds really good to me when you say I think I am actually pretty good Yeah at writing. Also, did you illustrate this book? Are they your illustrations? So you're basically a gifted cartoonist as well I actually have a children's book that will be coming out next year that you you've illustrated. That I will have drawn the pictures. That's amazing, Gina. Yeah, yeah. Okay, wait, so I've got distracted. So you were modeling.

Yes. And just tell us quickly the Ann Taylor story because it's so batshit, excuse my language, but it's also so brilliant. Right, right. Well, when I first moved to New York, the first day I went out and got a job as a sales girl at Ann Taylor, but I needed something to support myself and I loved it. I thought Ann Taylor was like really the height of fashion or something.

So I would very carefully dress, you know, makeup and hair and wear Ann Taylor clothes. And one day I noticed that the front window there were mannequins sitting at a sort of a cafe table and they had plastic food in front of them as if they were having lunch, and there was an empty chair in the middle. And I was peeking in the window, and I said to one of my girlfriends, dare me to go in the window? She's like, yeah, yeah, go.

So I went and sat in the chair in the window, and I'm like, what am I going to do now? And there were a couple of people who happened to be looking in the window and saw me get in there, and they start watching me. And so I decided I was going to freeze like a mannequin and pretend to be a mannequin. And so I did. And then they're just waiting there like, what's this? What's she going to do? And then other people started coming up and saying, I could hear through the window saying,

what are you guys looking at? Because I guess I really looked like a mannequin. They said, well, just wait, just wait. And then they waited and more and more people said, what are you guys looking at? Because I guess I really looked like a mannequin. They said, well, just wait, just wait. And then they waited and more and more people said, what are you guys looking at? It's just a window with mannequins. And then finally when I moved, everyone was like, oh, wow. And then I froze again. And anyway, the manager came over and saw what I was doing and she was like, Gina, get out of the window. And then she saw the big crowd and she said, well, actually stay in the window. Then they started hiring me to be a mannequin in the window. You took it to these extraordinary

lengths where you had ties around your wrist to make it look like you were plastic. Like they were attached. Yeah, exactly. I got a wig that looked just like the wigs that the mannequins had on Aunt Taylor. I could hear everything people said, like I said, and I heard somebody say, it's not a mechanical mannequin, it has hair on its arms. And so, okay, and then I didn't have hair on my arms anymore. And then somebody said, it can't be a machine because it's not plugged in. And so then the next day I had a little tiny wire very subtly drifting off and then somebody

would say, oh, it's flown in. It is a robot mannequin. Is there something that you love about being in a situation where you're in on the secret and you're in a position where you can observe people? Yes. It was fascinating. It was so fun. I could wrangle the crowd, you know, I could

figure out when I should move. You know, I wait until it seems like people are going to start drifting away and then I do some move and then they're captivated again. It was great. It was really great. Sometimes they would try to throw me off, you know, they'd try to say things or do things that would distract me. Do you think you're shy? I have been terribly shy and I can still become shy for sure, but not as much anymore. I was cripplingly shy in the beginning. When I first started dating, it was sort of a nightmare because I didn't want to voice any

opinions like they say where should we have dinner or whatever. Oh I don't know wherever you want it, what do you want to eat, you know whatever I don't care. It kind of drove guys crazy sometimes like can you ever just say what you want and no. Ultimately you're trying to please them by doing that. I've done that in the past as well. Right. Like, I can't even pick what salad I want because he might not like the kind of lettuce. You know, it's like so insane to try to please someone in that way. I am going to come back to this failure in just a second, but because we're talking about

dating, you've been married four times. I'm a huge believer that a relationship is not a failure because it ends. And all failure is data acquisition. And I just wonder what those relationships have taught you, if you could sum it up. Right. Well, such a hard question. Right. But I totally agree with you. And I have excellent relationships with some of my exes, because parts of it were very successful. And so it can retain those parts ultimately somehow

for whatever reason it didn't work out in the long run, but I have very, very fond memories of a lot of my relationships. So your failure as a top model led to you being an actor. Tell us how that happened. Yes, so I did work here and there as an actor. When they were casting Tootsie, the casting director called model agencies and said, if you have any models that can also act, let me know.

And they were like, we have one who's studied acting and everything. And so I got to audition for it. And I was told to wear a bathing suit under my clothes because if I read well, they would want to see what my body looks like. The role entailed the character being in our underwear a couple of times. It doesn't always pretend to be a woman and he comes in a room with a half-naked woman and he has to not react, you know what I mean? Yeah, because I'm sure that happened a lot in auditions around that time that you had

to show. But actually with Tootsie, it was a slightly different element. It wasn't just that you were being sexually harassed. No, no, no. It had an actual legitimate purpose. So anyway, so I go to the audition and it's just a casting assistant with a video recorder. She doesn't say, can I see you in a bathing suit? And so I think, well, obviously the first audition I ever have, I'm not going to get cast in a movie with Dustin Hoffman and Sydney Pollock, the director. So I forgot

all about it. And I went for the first time to Paris to do the runway collections. I hadn't really ever done runway stuff before. And I'm very excited. And while I was gone, Sydney Pollock looked at the audition tapes and said, I really like this girl. Where's her bathing suit shot? And she said, oh, well, we forgot to ask her. Well, get her back. Oh, no, it turns out she can't. She's in France.

Well, do they have any photos of her in a bathing suit? And thankfully, I had been in a Victoria's Secret catalog. So they just sent that over. And I'm not saying they went, well, let's get her, but it helped me get the part. And Tootsie, which, I mean, it sounds like I'm making this up, is another one of my favourite films of all time. I rewatched it recently.

Yes, it really holds up, doesn't it? It really holds up, and it's always such a relief when you go back to favourite films from like the 80s and 90s and they hold up. Right. Oh, it's just, I think that what I love about it, obviously the performances are exceptional. I love Sidney Pollack, the director's cameo, like his part in it. But it's so warm-hearted as a movie.

And it sounds as though it was like that on set as well. It really was. It really was. It was incredible. I didn't know what it would be like to be on set, and I was a little worried about it before I got there. I thought there might be some special movie acting that I hadn't learned as a theatre major, and that they would expect me to know how to movie act. So I was a little trepidatious in the beginning, but I got there and we shot my first scene

and both Dustin and Sidney Pollock were incredibly respectful and welcoming. Treated me like instantly like a peer. It was nothing like, well, she's just a model we got. It was like very, very supportive and welcoming. So the whole thing was like that. It was the most incredible introduction to a career in Hollywood that you could ever ask. And Dustin Hoffman gave you very good advice for dealing with amorous co-stars, didn't he?

He did. He gave me lots of good advice. All day long, he was thinking of things. He was like he wanted to prepare me for this career that he seemed sure that I would have. So, yes, one of the pieces of advice He wanted to prepare me for this career that he seemed sure that I would have. So one of the pieces of advice was never sleep with your co-stars

because it'll complicate things, it's just not good. So don't do it. But here's what you say, which was, yay, okay, tell me what I say. And it was, I would love to, you're very attractive, but I don't want to ruin the sexual tension between us. So good.

And so I squirreled that away. All right, if I ever need that, I'm going to remember. And then I did need it only a few months later. With Jack Nicholson. With Jack Nicholson, yes. My agent had taken me and a couple other models who wanted to be actors to LA to meet casting directors, whatever, and he happened to know Jack Nicholson. So for this entire week, we had dinner

with Jack Nicholson every night, just like the models, the agent, had Jack Nicholson. And about midweek, I came home from appointments, and there was a message, Gina, please call Jack Nicholson. I'm like, oh my God, I showed it to Mike. We're made and stuff, and I'm like, oh, Jack Nicholson. I'm like, oh my God. I showed it to my roommate and stuff. And I'm like, oh, Jack Nicholson wants me to call him. So I call him and say, hello, Jack.

This is Gina, the model. You called me. And he says, yeah, hey, Gina, when's it gonna happen? And I'm like, why didn't I realize what this was gonna be about? You know, it's not gonna be, we star with me in a movie, it's gonna be, let's get together.

But I said, I thought, I know exactly what to say for once in my life. I said, well, Mr. Nicholson, Jack, I would love to. It's very tempting, but I have a feeling we're gonna work together in the future, and I would hate to have ruined the sexual tension between us. Oh my, I mean, how elegant. And he said... And he said, oh man, where did you get that?

Oh, he immediately assumed somebody had told me, you know, taught me to say that, but it worked. I mean, thank you, Dustin Hoffman, for saving lovely lovely innocent Gina. Exactly, exactly. Little did he know that I would need it so soon. There's also a great bit which isn't directly related but about Warren Beatty. Yes. Tell us quickly about that.

So I was at a party that Warren Beatty was at and in fact I had just split with Jeff Goldblum, my second husband. Who I never wanted you to split with because the two of you just looked like you fit together. We were such a great couple, I have to say. We really were. I miss it. I miss it a lot.

It had been public so he knew about it. He said, hey, I was sorry to hear that you and Jeff split. You guys were such a great couple. In fact, I don't know if you remember, I was on an elevator once with you two. I said, oh no, I don't remember. He says, yeah, I was looking at you guys and I thought they are such a great couple that I'm not even going to fuck her. As if it's his prerogative. Yeah, as if obviously he would have done otherwise.

Well, and that he can't, he can't, you know. He could just fuck anybody he wants. But you know what? I'm going to be so gracious that I'll leave this alone. It's just so funny that he then told you that as well. Yes. This is a compliment, though. It was a total compliment. I just loved you guys.

I decided I wouldn't destroy it. You know, by, oh, Gina, we're laughing about this. But I suppose there is a sort of underlying sense that it was a tough time for a woman navigating the movie industry, right through the 80s, 90s, early 2000s. How did you feel when the Me Too movement started in 2017? Mm-hmm.

It was extraordinary. I mean, obviously it came about for horrific reasons, but at least things became known. Women started being believed. I remember the Cosby thing happened first, and I remember that it had gotten up to 50 women saying that he had assaulted them, and still people were saying, well, you know, we're not sure we can believe it. It's like, how many of us have, you know, does it take to be believed?

And so, you know, it really became me too with the Harvey Weinstein of it all. But I was thrilled. I was absolutely thrilled that it came out and that we could talk about it and finally be believed and make change. When other women would come forward and now it was okay to bring it up.

And so other people got busted, were discovered to be serial abusers. And it really changed things in Hollywood. I mean, not as much as we could wish. I'm sure things still go on in secret and there's still women that might not want to come forward and say what happened to them. But it's very, very different. And part of it is that it is okay now if you feel strong enough to say what happened to you. Because I think when I was in the early years and my peers, I think we all felt like you can't complain about anything. They'll just get somebody else.

Your job is to be no trouble, pleasant, nice to work with and never, never, never complain about anything. Whether it was salary or you know sexual assault, you couldn't talk about it. But Me Too changed that, that it suddenly was okay because then you saw women coming out and saying, me too, me too, this happened to me too. And then it became okay to talk about your salary also, which people had never felt comfortable, women had never felt comfortable talking about. But if you found out your co-star was making 10 times what you were making, it suddenly became okay to say that in an interview and say I deserve equal money. And I mean, this was just extraordinary.

It's such an interesting point you make about how you felt, as I did, that it was the price of admission, that you were lucky just even to be allowed onto the playing field. And anything that you had to put up with was just something you had to deal with. Because how lucky were we that we were allowed to have this job when our grandmothers wouldn't have had it?

But Me Too, and I know I don't work in the same industry as you, but Me Too for me helped me recategorize incidents in my past. And I wonder if it did that for you, because suddenly I was like, oh, that was harassment. Absolutely, it did, it definitely did. It helped me to recategorize things for sure. Were there specific incidents?

Well, I had an audition for a movie quite early on. It was very early in my career and the director acted incredibly inappropriately in this audition because he asked me to act out the scene, which was kind of a sexy scene, with him. And it involved sitting on a man's lap. And at first I thought he had to be kidding, you know, that, really? No, no, I mean, that isn't how auditions go. You read with somebody else. And he said, no, no, but sit here.

And I was like, I don't want to do this, but I did. You know, and hating every second of it. But after Me Too, I realized that helped me really recategorize that as assault, really. And not being your fault. Yeah. And not being my fault. Yeah. Hey, everybody.

It's Hoda Kotb and I would love for you to join me for new episodes of my podcast, Making Space. Each week I'm having conversations with authors, actors, speakers, and dear friends of mine, folks who are seeking the truth, compassion, and self-discovery. I promise you will leave these talks stronger and inspired to make space in your own life for growth and change. To start listening, just search Making Space wherever you get your podcasts and follow for new episodes every Wednesday. guy on a night out. He'd done the same thing four weeks before. Damn. Ridiculous road rage bickers. Yeah right, I'm getting out, you drive. And you're like, no shut up, shut up, go on, get back in,

get back in. And I know, f***ing go on, you get the pass. I'll be passing. We're showing in the streets of Italy. And what happens when you leave food waste in a cupboard for months? Ugh, gross. Check out Liam and Millie on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You got that part in Tupsey. Your movie career is stellar. And then we come to your third failure. And I'm so glad that you have chosen this one, which is your ADD diagnosis.

Right, right. Because it came when you were 41, is that right? Yes, exactly. So I had felt forever that there was something wrong with me that was a huge secret and had to be hidden. And I thought I had a sort of personality flaw or a character flaw because from when I was a kid, I noticed that I couldn't finish a lot of things or I couldn't start things.

I got straight A's up until junior high school because there was no homework per se that would have tripped me up. But once we started having assignments where you had to take several nights to write a paper or you had to study for several days for a test or something, I was like lost. And I didn't want anybody to know this about me, you know, that I wasn't able to do that. It was torture. It was just torture.

Because I also felt like I must get all A's, which I've been doing. And so it was really hard to get through high school. I also felt like I must get all A's, which I've been doing. So it was really hard to get through high school. I mean, I managed to mostly still get A's, but it was just so torturous. And there were other things I just couldn't complete or I couldn't start. And I carried forward into my adult life. What about learning lines? I managed to pick a career and I'm fortunate to be able to get work in a career that absolutely

puts a gun to your head because on that day when they're going to shoot this thing and hundreds of people are there and they're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a day, you have to perform. This is your one chance to get it right. And so I would learn the lines, but often the night before. But I would learn the lines and I would be absolutely ready when the time came. But if I'd had a more measured job where you're just kind of doing your work every day and I need to be steady, I would have had a terrible time.

And forgive my ignorance, does ADD or ADHD have an impact on your personal relationships? Is there also an element of, I can't sustain this? It did, it really did. Not, I can't sustain this relationship, but as far as their image of me, their approval of me. Like eventually they would realize that she didn't do the thing I asked her to, or she didn't, you know, and look at our house as a mess and things like that. And I remember one relationship, the man said he wanted to break up

because I never bought chairs for the dining room table. And I was like, what? But to him, he saw the way I was as a serious character flaw that I just can't seem to finish things or focus on whatever it was he wanted me to focus on. Wow. I'm sorry that happened.

Yeah. So how did you get your diagnosis? I started with a therapist at 41 and within maybe by the second time I saw her she said, has anybody ever told you that you have ADD? And I said, oh no, no, no, I can't because I'm so not hyperactive. And back then we still did call it ADD instead of ADHD. I said, I'm profoundly not hyperactive. She said, but you can have it without being hyperactive.

I said, really? So she said, well, just go see this person and get tested. And it turned out that the results showed that I had a very serious case of ADD. And it was magic. It was so unbelievable to find that out, that there was a reason, you know, that for 41 years, I've been going through this sort of self torture about not being able to do things that I wanted to, you know, that I desperately wanted to do, but I just couldn't. I had an earlier therapist who I would talk about this all the time, you know, I want

to write a book, I want to learn how to play the violin, I want to, you know, all these things, but I can't seem to do it. And she would say, well, maybe you're just that kind of person who, you know, just doesn't do things. I mean, she said, Winston Churchill did a lot of work in bed. And maybe you were kind of that kind of person. He was also a functioning alcoholic, so he had a bottle of cans.

Right. Maybe you don't need to do all those things you keep saying you want to do. And I was like, I do. I really want to do them. Wow. Yeah. So it made sense of a lot of things.

Yes. want to do them. Wow. Yeah. So it made sense of a lot of things for you. And then did it enable you to use it as a power rather than a weakness? Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yes. It really changed everything. It was such a relief to know that, wait a minute, I could stop blaming myself and abusing myself for having this giant flaw that I really don't want anybody

to know about. And the other side of ADD is that you can also have attention surplus disorder. You know, my therapist described it as being like a lion and they lay around 90% of the day and then, oh, what's that? And then they're 100% focused. So that's kind of what it's like. So the archery, this stems from the same sort of time in your life. Exactly the same time. So do you think your diagnosis of ADD sort of fed into the fact that you were absolutely able to focus on becoming an Olympic level archer? Well, yes, yes. I started feeling completely differently about myself and I had had this idea that I wanted

to take up a sport in real life and not just a movie version of a sport and picked archery. Partly I also started learning coping skills. I really wanted to become as good as I possibly could get at archery, which means lots of practice, but I knew it was going to be hard to get to the practice field every day. So sometimes I would have him meet me. I would make an appointment at 10 o'clock, please meet me there and I would have to not let him keep waiting but once I started and he got me started he could leave and I'd spend five hours there. And one of the things that you wrote you loved about archery is that there's nothing subjective about it.

Yes. Tell us about that. Yes. It was amazing to realize what it was about it that really meant so much to me, which was you can measure it. It's points. It doesn't matter what you wear. It doesn't matter people's opinion. It's nothing like ice skating or something where there's judges. You hit the target or you don't and you add up the points and you know exactly how you did. And it was so different from my day job, which is utterly subjective. So I love that about it.

I've just got a few more questions for you, I promise. And then I'll let you go. If anyone is listening to this and they have just had a diagnosis of ADHD or ADD and they're feeling really low about it, what would you say to them? You know, it's actually kind of fabulous to have ADHD. People tend to be incredibly creative and if you can develop coping skills, there's all kind of articles about how to develop coping skills to counteract the effect of not being able to start things or finish things It's actually can be a real advantage. You see the world through very colorful eyes and so it can be great

It's kind of fabulous. I love that. Yeah so I wanted to ask you before we daughter close about age but specifically the fact that the Gina Davis story as told in multiple interviews is you had this extraordinary career and then you hit 40 and the roles seemed to dry up and you were interested in why that was happening and you launched the Gina Davis Institute as a result of that and then you started getting roles again and now you sit before us, the fabulous woman that you are. But my reading of it is that I feel you really discovered yourself in your 40s. You had this diagnosis, you became

an Olympic level archer. You were doing all of that. And actually it sounds such an empowering decade in many ways. And one of the things I know that happened in your 40s is that you became a mother. My personal story is that I'm not a mother yet and I'm in your 40s is that you became a mother. Yes. My personal story is that I'm not a mother yet, and I'm in my 40s, and it's been a long old journey, but I'm determined to get there. And I suppose what I'm asking from you is what it's like being a parent in your 40s and whether that came with lots of benefits

because you were slightly older. Yes, it did. And in fact, I'd always knew I wanted kids at some point. I waited very long. But I knew that the older I was, the better it might be because I felt like I had low self-esteem and I didn't want my kids to have low self-esteem. So I felt like the older I got, the more confident I would get, more evolved I would get, and then I would be better positioned to be a great role model to them.

So that was my thinking that it's going to be a, it's positioned to be a great role model to them. So that was my thinking. That's beautiful. It's going to be an advantage. I want to say the impression of me that you were talking about. I did not start the Institute because I had a lack of jobs at all. It was specifically about the lack of female characters in kids' entertainment. When I started showing preschool shows that I thought were educational or whatever to my daughter,

I immediately noticed that there were far more male characters than female characters in the 21st century. And what are we doing? We're showing kids that girls are profoundly less important than boys, and we're showing boys that girls are profoundly less important than boys, and we're showing boys that boys are more important. So we have to change this immediately. And you have one daughter and two twin sons.

So if they were sitting here today, how do you think they would describe you as a mother? Well, I don't know. I know they love me. Yeah, we have a great relationship. But I made a point of being their media and literacy coach. So I would watch everything with them and I was able to say, why do you think there's no girls in that scene? Do you think girls could do what those boys are doing? And so they're very savvy now as other adults. Well, I'm sure they're incredibly grateful to you, but we're incredibly grateful to you for shaping the culture as an actor, as a campaigner, as the phenomenal woman that you

are. I cannot thank you enough for giving me your time and your warmth today. Gina Davis, thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. Thank you. It was so much fun. Thank you. It was so much fun. Thank you.