How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - How To Date: How to meet someone

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Elizabeth and Mel get into the exciting, terrifying and sometimes overwhelming world of how on earth to meet someone. We discuss online dating and IRL encounters and how to navigate it all without losing our self-esteem. Our guest this week is the brilliant Sharmaine Lovegrove, whom many of you might already know as one of the hosts of our previous podclass, How To Write A Book. Sharmaine went through a marital separation in her early 40s and threw herself into the apps. She joins us to share her many anecdotes and first-hand accounts of dating/meeting people post-break-up. Plus: what it means to attract what you put out into the world and how to stay resilient when facing the rejection that is an inevitable part of dating. After you’ve listened, you can get all the resources and worksheets discussed at www.thepodclass.co.uk Mel and Elizabeth are on a mission to revolutionise the world of dating! We want to make it a safe, fun and rewarding experience for everyone. If you’d like to join us, we’ve put together our very own How To Date Good Dating Pledge, consisting of 10 simple ‘Dating Commandments’. Have a look and sign up for free now at www.thepodclass.co.uk  If you don’t want to wait each week for new episodes join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad free, all at once. Follow the link to sign up: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/ A Daylight and Sony Music Entertainment Production. _______________________________________________________________________ Morrisons terms & conditions Dine in -  Majority of stores and online. Excludes Morrisons Daily. More card/app required. Without More Card £17. Ends 15/02. Online varies. Please drink responsibly.   Buy 6 - Majority of stores. Excludes Scotland and Morrisons Daily. More Card/App required. Ends 16/02. Selected 75cl bottles. Max 36 bottles in store. Online excludes Champagne, max 12. Please drink responsibly.   Flowers - Available in the majority of stores. Prices may vary online and at Morrisons Daily. More Card/App required, 16+. Without More card £5. Ends 14/02.   More Card T&C’s: https://www.morrisons.com/more/terms-and-conditions/ General T&C’s https://groceries.morrisons.com/content/terms-and-conditions?srsltid=AfmBOor2xSfFNVtu22I9z5plcQkO6kId8jZ3NSdAF4X4Mt8JQkhO_ylQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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please join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now ad free all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes. Welcome to How to Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. And every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. Mel, welcome back.

Oh, thank you. Let's go for round two. I know we've got a big old topic today. Oh, thank you. Let's go for round two. I know we've got a big old topic today. Oh, yes. This is the episode where we are discussing how to meet someone, both on the apps and in real life. And actually, because we're professionals in this pod class studio, I'm going to start off

with a little bit of statistical research. Let's go deep. Which is about the phenomenon of online dating. So you and I are both old enough to remember a world in which apps didn't exist, mobile phones didn't exist. And the phenomenon of dating was very much like you had to call someone's landline, you had to arrange with Mrs. Whoever to meet someone at a cinema. And if you didn't turn up, there was no recourse to that. You couldn't tell anyone you were running late. And that has massively shifted. There's been such a

big move towards online dating. So a study by Stanford University of heterosexual couples recently conducted showed that in 1995, just 2% of people met their partners online. In 2017, that had risen to 39%. And now in 2024, 60.67% met online. So well over half, we're almost going into 70%, three quarters of people meeting online. So we are going to spend a big old chunk of this episode talking about that. And we're going to spend a big old chunk of this episode talking about that. And we're going to start, aren't we Mel, with our own experiences. Because we met our

husbands online. We both did. Talk to me about meeting Gareth on eHarmony and whether you immediately knew that there was something different about him. Probably the first thing to talk about is the photos that he used on his profile. Because this is a big topic, you know, when we're talking about online dating, the question always comes up, which photos do I use? What do I withhold?

What do I show? And for him, the thing that grabbed me, and I guess that cut through all the noise was humor. And he demonstrated that through hilarious photos. the thing that grabbed me and I guess that cut through all the noise was humor and he demonstrated that through hilarious photos. It was one of him and another guy at Oktoberfest in Germany, both biting the other end of a hot dog. I know I'm doing this with my hands and it's looking quite phallic and revolting. This will be a social media clip. Top bedroom tips. this with my hands and it was looking quite phallic and revolting. Yes, this will be a social media clip.

Top bedroom tips. And I found that funny. There was another one with, I mean, once you get to know Gareth, you'll know at any opportunity he will show off his biceps because they are quite spectacular. So there was one of him blowing up his bicep like this, as though he's blowing it up like a balloon. And so I just, I saw the humor in this guy. He was obviously gregarious and fun and didn't take himself too seriously. So that was the first thing that cut through the noise. So that's a really good tip, I think, for people. If sense of humor is something that's important to you, don't show photos of you being all straight-laced and serious, you know, allow those characteristics

to come through. I think that's such a good point about the photos being a helpful window into someone's personality. My experience of dating on the apps, so I became single in my late thirties and dating had seismically changed as we've just heard within that time. And I was quite strategic about how I went about it. So I signed up to everything. I say strategic, I basically just like threw myself into it. I think that's a scatter gun. And I did have to get over a little bit of initial resistance because of the culture that I'd grown up in, where it was still seen as slightly shameful, wrongly to have met

someone online. But that's when I came of age. And I remember talking to my friend and her saying, but actually it's even more romantic if you think about it, meeting someone on the apps, because it's so intentional. The one that worked for me eventually was hinge, But I want to talk about the things that I did wrong first. So I think I had just come out of a relationship with a younger man and in my head, I think I wanted to replicate that again. And I think I was resistant to the idea of being older, partly because of the fears that it prompted in me about my biological clock ticking and would anyone really be interested. And I think I set my age parameters too young and too limited. There was a judgment there, inherent. I was like a judgemental about what an older

man might be like because I am cis hetero woman so I was looking for men. And I had some really rough experiences on Bumble and OK Keep It. On Bumble, I matched with a machete wielding little person. That was his profile photo. He was wielding a machete and he was wearing a sort of magician's, like black tie, but without the tuxedo jacket. Anyway, finally I download Hinge and it worked for me. But Justin was the first and only person that I matched with on Hinge who I then went on a date with. And I had changed my parameters by then. I had made them slightly older and I had said that I didn't mind dating people with children. And what really struck me about Justin was

that his photos were not what I was used to, in that they were incredibly unvain. But when I met him in real life, I thought, gosh, he's so much more handsome than his photos made him appear. But actually there's something so nice about that. But I had to be open minded to that. And actually that's something that I would love to say to listeners, that it is so helpful to be open-minded. And the thing that he liked about my profile was that

I had used the F word. It's not the only thing he liked because I love swearing. And I think that there's a lesson there, not about being potty mad, but about being brave enough to show up as yourself and being appreciated for that by the right person. Yes. And that may have screened some guys out. Exactly. Who would have been judgmental and said it was potty mouth. And that's good because they're not your guys. It's interesting that we've landed on this word judgmental again. Yeah. Because I think I was very, very judgmental for a long time. And part of that is about being judgmental of myself too, being highly self-critical. And actually I had to become less judgmental and more open-minded to find my person on the apps.

Oh my gosh, me too. I was so judgmental. And as I mentioned in the previous episode, I was smug when I stepped into the dating pool. So that's even beyond judgmental. And as I mentioned in the previous episode, I was smug when I stepped into the dating pool. So that's even beyond judgmental. Just quickly before we move on to our fantastic guest, what about older daters? So we've had a lot of messages from people in their sixties who maybe have been sadly widowed or they've been through a divorce and they're looking to find someone but they see apps as a sort of young person's game. What would you say to them?

Jess First I'd say well it's not, it's everyone's game but I totally understand the fear and apprehension around it. So this is where nieces, nephews, grandkids can come in handy. So if you just look at the tech side of it, that is just a skill you can learn or something you can have someone holding your hand through. So I'd say get some help from the younger generation to just step you through what you need to know, even if you have to write it down in longhand, you know, step by step, just so that the technical side of

it doesn't feel so daunting, because then you can free up that brain space to focus on the good stuff, the important stuff. Great advice. And actually, we will return again and again on this pod class the idea of a trusted friend or confidant. And I think they can really help at this stage too. They can help as well by looking at your profile saying, actually, you're coming across a bit like this. And I know you and you're not like that. So let's work on how to portray the truest version of yourself online. Really important. I really sympathise with salespeople. It must always feel like they're sifting through

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Mad About the Boy. There's stories from her love interests, Bridget's friends, and even a few surprises. So join me and let's dive back into Bridget's world. Catch Bridget Jones, Mad About the Boy, the podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, I'm super excited because to help us unpack all of this today, we're going to be joined by none other than Charmaine Lovegrove, who is a familiar voice to many because as an esteemed publisher and a dear friend of mine, she was of course one of the hosts of our previous pod class, How to Write a Book. Now, you might not think that there's a lot of overlap between book writing and dating, but there is

because Charmaine went through a marital separation in her early 40s and after that she downloaded the apps for the first time and began to date again. She has a wealth of experience she's going to share with us today. Welcome my darling Charmaine to How to Date. Hi, great to be here. This is so exciting to talk about this subject. Oh, we're so excited to have you and you're joining us from your home in Berlin. So thank you for making the time. Now, I was lucky enough to get a blow by blow description. Sometimes literally, no, of your of your dating safari. But talk to us a little bit about how you felt approaching the apps in the aftermath of your marital separation. You're in your early 40s. What did the apps represent for you at that stage? Yeah, so it was so interesting because I'm 43 and I started using them around 41, 42. And so I'd never dated like that.

I was a bit nervous about, you know, being black, being curvy, having had three children, and sort of not being stereotypical, especially in Germany, where I live, and feeling like I look different to people, my sense of humor. Like, I am very British and very my sense of humour, like I am very British and very Jamaican, like I'm very, very South London. And so I kind of thought

about all of these things, which was actually really helpful as a way of kind of figuring out who am I? It's like I felt like I had to know myself. So it helped me to understand that I was ready for the apps, because I knew that I could answer these questions immediately. Because we spoke about that in the last episode, didn't we, Mel, about dating yourself first. And are you ready? And I love what you're saying there, Charmaine, about knowing who I am, and therefore entering into the dating world in an informed way. That's so important. So Charmaine, talk to us about which apps you used and which ones you researched because I know there was a lot of research. There was a lot of research.

Obviously I went to Hinge first because that's where you met your amazing husband. And then I Then I also had heard about this sex positive app called Field and Tinder. So on Tinder, what was really interesting was that just, they don't really seem to have an algorithm. So everybody and their dog, which by the way, dogs in pictures show that you're a really caring, lovely, wonderful person. And so people love seeing dogs in their pictures as a tip and any animals, but not fish and not lions. Not fish and not lions, okay? But everyone just seemed to be on there.

And I was just like, this is just too confusing. I didn't feel ready to be in a relationship, but I knew I wanted to have experiences that were intimate, sexual and fun. So field was my playground of choice. Can I just jump in and signpost something really important that you've identified there that I think our listeners could really relate to? You were very clear about what you wanted from this dating phase in your life.

And I love that you said, I didn't want a serious relationship. I just wanted to have some great experiences with different people. And I think this is really, really key for, you know, people when they're stepping into the apps or even IRL dating to say to themselves, what do I want to get out of this process so that you choose the right tactics and ultimately the right people? So good on you. You knew that. That was very intuitive for you by the sound of it. Can I ask before we get back to field, which I want to dig into, forgive the pun, but if you are coming out of some kind of loss or relationship breakdown, as I was, as Charmaine was, but if it's had a really negative impact on you and your sense of self, if you're struggling to know yourself or be confident on that level,

how do you navigate the apps? Is your answer Mel that you probably shouldn't, that you should take a bit of time first? You know exactly where I'm going with this, don't you? I mean, what you're describing there is someone who's not date ready, I would say. And it doesn't mean, you know, never go to the apps. I think the apps are always going to be a good option when you're at the stage where you're ready for that. But I guess one of the things that we all need to call out here is online dating is a game of rejection. Ultimately, if you look at the numbers, you know, the vast majority of the encounters

you have may lead to disappointment, whether that's being rejected or rejecting someone else. So it does take a level of resilience to do it well and to look after yourself in the process. So I think if you are still really wobbly, I would suggest maybe still looking at the apps, maybe exploring, dipping your toe in, but perhaps not showing yourself yet. And we will talk more about rejection later in this episode, because I think you're so right that that is, it would be really great to have some practical comforting tips that

can get us through those inevitable moments. Charmaine, let's come back to field because I'd never heard of field until you told me about it. What was it about field that appealed to you? So I just felt like in my 20s, I'd had a lot of sex with a lot of people from just like meeting them in a bar and then kissing them and then going home with them. And I had no idea what they were interested in, they had no idea what I was interested in and actually we didn't really care. But I'd had a very great sexual relationship with my husband and so I didn't want to go back to having bad sex of my twenties. So the idea that there was a space where I could be really

specific but also open about what I wanted and find people that were compatible. And then, you know, if you're looking for an emotionally intelligent person, somebody with high EQ, then people who are already able to talk about sex, desire, intimacy, you're already like halfway there. And there's a really good big difference to me between compatibility and chemistry. And so the chemistry is kind of what you need to get you into bed. And then the compatibility is what you need on the like physical dates and then like spending time with friends and family is what develops a relationship.

And the sort of intersect of those things is what actually makes a great relationship. So I wanted to foreground chemistry and if compatibility came, then I would be really lucky. And then listen, this app has a literary magazine. It just seemed like a really good space for me because they were already saying, this is gonna be people who are thinking.

So it's kind of the thinking person's sex app. Interesting. And can I ask how your sexual identity plays into this? Yeah, so I'm bisexual and I spent most of my 20s with women and then I sort of started dating men just before I met my husband, ex-husband. And so, literally, Field was just, I mean, it was just so great because I could just, I could see that there were so many different people who were bi, and I could see all these different genders and sexualities, and I think there's like 27, and it's just fascinating. And you just feel like, not all of these people could be my people,

but I'm really, really glad that they exist. and it's just fascinating and you just feel like not all of these people could be my people, but I'm really, really glad that they exist. And also living and working, you know, my work is around inclusion. So to be on an app that was heralding and, you know, celebrating inclusion in a sexual form was just like really mind blowing to me. So it was clear that it's something that I needed to be part of. It was like, who knew? And then as soon as I knew, I was like, thank God for this. Well, I think that covers a very good point, which is not only are apps the concept new, but there are new apps being developed all of the time. And it could be that when you're in this process and you're finding that you're not getting the matches or the responses that you would like to get from one app, it is worth exploring others

because it's not you, it's about finding the place that is right for you. And there are many others. So Thursday, that's the app where you have to meet up in person, I think. There's Raya, which is dating for people with public profiles, where you have to go through a selection process. Fun fact, they rejected me when I first applied. I mean, I had no profiles before, but my friend was like, Oh, they'll have you anyway. They didn't, they never got back to the email. And then some years later, I got an email from like their head of client base or whatever saying we'd like to invite you on to Raya. And I was like, it's too late, babe. I've met and married someone I met on hinge. So Yahoo sucks. Anyway, there's Grindr, which is a gay dating app. There's obviously eHarmony where you met your Gareth. And I've just heard of

a new one, producer Harry told me of a new one called Breeze, where you match. Have you heard of this Charmée? Yeah, I have heard of it. I actually realized the other day when I was going through that I downloaded it just like a few weeks ago. So that's one way you match, then you're not allowed to chat over text. You get a limited number of profiles to see per day. And once you match, that's an instant date. You give your availability and they plan the date and location for you. And that's also the point that you pay. You pay for Breeze tokens for this date and that gets you a drink when you're at the bar. If

you cancel, it incurs a penalty. So it's kind of like a fine. I mean, it's quite outrageous. It's good income generation. Absolutely. It's a good business model. But there's part of me that can see the merit in that, because I think so many people get bogged down in the back and forth of messaging, which can only lead to unrealistic expectations and often disappointment. Yeah. Which is where I go back to the chemistry compatibility debate, right? The endless talking can set you up for two things.

One for catfishing, there are catfishers out there. You know, and I feel bad for them. You look how many apps you just listed, Elizabeth, and it's so great that there's somebody out there for everybody, right? So you can be yourself. So the idea that you then would pretend not to, I just think is just a really, is really awful for many different reasons. And then I think the second thing about the kind of talking too much is that you sort of build up this weird picture and then you get really excited and you think

you're really compatible and then you don't allow for the chemistry to shine through. And so then you sort of set yourself up for a fail. So I just think like, nip the talking in the bud, get on the date, see what happens, keep it moving. And if you can't get on the date, this used to happen to me a lot where there'd be endless banter. And I'm, I'm good at that. I'll blow my own trumpet and I'll say I'm good at the flirty texts. I have a sense of humor. So that, and I enjoy writing. Like I enjoy being understood through the means of words. So that could go on for a really long time. And sometimes it would never translate

into a date because the guy would just disappear. And I think I would say, try not to lose heart at that stage. And that again, it's about weeding out the person who is not worthy of you and someone who is not worthy of you is someone who cannot translate the flirty banter into a real life exchange. And I think that separation of compatibility and chemistry is a very useful one, Charmaine, for identifying that. Before we get onto how we should build a profile, I want to give you a bit more scientific research, which is about those algorithms that you mentioned Charmaine. So apps behave differently for different people and some of the algorithms are incredibly kept top secret. So for instance, Tinder when it first launched used the ELO rating system,

which is an algorithm created for chess competitions. So a win, a swipe right, would increase the person's score and a loss, a swipe left, would lower it. Tinder then calculated user scores based on that and it matched users with people who had similar scores. So if you had four losses, you would be matched with another person who had four losses. If you had four wins, the same thing would happen. But they are now vocal, they no longer use that algorithm and we don't quite know how they go about matching their users. Hinge is one of the only dating apps that has actually been open about the algorithm it uses.

They use the Gale-Shapley algorithm, which is a classic algorithm for any matching scenario. It's actually been used to match medical students with hospitals for their residencies, as well as organ donors to recipients. And that's because it doesn't just look at what you like, but it also takes into account who is likely to like you back. So over time, the algorithm learns who you are, who you send comments to, who you're having conversations with, and that informs it for greater matching precision. What are some of the things that we should be looking at doing when it comes to creating profiles? We've spoken about the need for authenticity and the need to know

who you are first. What about having a checklist in terms of who you're looking for? A good or a bad idea, Mel? It depends how it's constructed. I think it is so critical to use your profile as a screening tool. So screening in people, but also screening out people. So this is where I would encourage people to be a little bold and to actually put their deal breakers up front. So for example, if you have a need to become a parent, don't be afraid to put that on your profile. Because you don't want to actually date people who don't want children. You know, that's got to be something to really hang your hat on and be proud of. Or if it's absolutely critical that you have the freedom to continue traveling, for

example. You don't want to be with a homebody who never wants to leave the house. So if you have those really clear deal breakers, put them front and center. Gretchen Kerr On Married at First Sight, math, smell, there are very often people who will say, oh, they're not my type. And that happens a lot on the apps as well, because obviously the only thing that we have to go on initially is the photo and the answer to the questions. So would you recommend that people are more open-minded at that stage?

Yes. And in fact, if you do watch the show, you'll know that I restrain myself from giving them a tight slap when they say things like that because it does my head in. It's just classic self-sabotage. It really is. And often what you'll see us doing on the couch there is trying to coach people to have a more open-minded approach and to get curious as opposed to remaining rigid about those things. You talk so brilliantly about open-ended conversations and also that idea of a checklist being, what is it, 80%? 80% internal factors, so characteristics about who they are as a person, 20% external. Yes.

Yeah. What I would throw into the mix here too, is having that clear dating goal. Because I think Charmaine, like you're saying, if you're in a phase where you're ready to explore and try on some different types of relationships for size, then you don't really need to lead with some of those more prescriptive things like I really want to have children. That might not be the top priority and in fact it would probably inhibit meeting some really interesting people. But I think it's, if your dating goal is to meet the next person who's going to be someone I'm going to have a family with, then it absolutely makes sense, you know, to have that as your screening point.

As we've had Charmaine is so amazingly optimistic and brilliant energy. Not everyone feels like that or can bring that same energy to online dating. And many, many of the DMs that I get on Instagram are very often about people who are falling out of love with the apps, if they were ever in love with the apps in the first place, and who feel burnt out and depressed and dejected because they're just not finding the thing that they want to find. But do you recommend having periods off the app smell if you are feeling that? Absolutely. An app holiday is a great idea. It really is. And you can reenergize, but also get some distance so you can put things in perspective.

Because you know, we all get into that overthinking cycle, particularly when you're just doing date after date after date. It's very easy to fall into that trap of what's wrong with me. And of course, there's nothing wrong with you. But if you give yourself that break, that's where you can get that insight and put things in perspective and go, you know, when that person rejected me, that was clearly about X, it wasn't about me. Check in with yourself and really consolidate all of the learning that comes from that period of time. Take a month out, do all of that and jump back in. And even check in with yourself and ask yourself why you're experiencing something as rejection

because very often that does have roots in your past, in your childhood with how you experienced love and what it meant to you, both the absence of it and the presence of it. And maybe there's some useful work there where as you say Mel, a rejection is not a definition on who you are, particularly not in this context. There's so many things I want to do and see, like redoing the basement without having to do it all myself, or doing absolutely nothing. With a spectacular waterfall view of course. So I'm starting here, investing with RBC. When it comes to reaching your goals, personalized advice and performance matter. And now you

can get $300 when you invest with RBC. Offer ends March 3rd, 2025. Terms and conditions apply. Invest with RBC today. Now, as a somewhat leggy individual myself, I really identify with the leggiest of all the veg – tender stem broccoli. I can see that for you. It also just stands head and shoulders above the rest. Oh stop it! Anyway Mel, if you fancy something hot and steamy tonight – and since it's the season with Valentine's Day drawing near, why not opt for a side of tender stem? Broccoli, but better. Wow, you're really selling this.

I am. Because whether you're spending your Valentine's or Galentine's bromancing or flying solo, tender stem will always be there for you. Leave the bland behind, elevate your plate this Valentine's. It's all about taking a break from the Monday norm and trading up and doing something special. Tell me there's more! It's simple and easy to cook, ready in three minutes if you boil or steam, but it's diverse too, and it's great roasted or grilled for a more intense flavour. Plus, no waste generated because you can eat the whole stem and I often do. What a game changer.

Tender stem broccoli is available from your favourite supermarket. Add a packet to your shopping basket this week. OK, let's move on to other ways to meet people. Oh, they're neat. Yes, there are listeners. Yes, there are. So we've dealt with the apps. Thank you so much for your insight, Charmaine. Have any of us had experiences of meeting people in other spaces Yes, there are. So we've dealt with the apps. Thank you so much for your insight, Charmaine. Have any of us had experiences of meeting people in other spaces that we're willing

to share? Are there other ways? There are, Mel. There are. Of course there are. I mean, I have. And, you know, I like to talk about having a two-pronged approach to dating and that is online and offline.

I think it's really smart to do both because you can't really have all of your needs met through one. And I think when one is starting to annoy you or frustrate you or disappoint you, you can go to the other one. So for me, I met someone who turned into a significant relationship in my life

through my theater. So that's an example of me doing something that aligns with my values and passions and everything that I love about life. Finding someone else who's in that space as well made a lot of sense. It's what I call a target rich environment. And you can look for those in your own life. Yes. I love that two pronged approach because I did that subconsciously. I didn't have the male shilling language, but I would go through phases of just feeling so disillusioned with the apps that I signed up with a real life dating agency, which actually was a negative

experience for me because they were asking for a lot of money upfront, which I didn't give them because first of all, I had an interview and then there was this whole sort of quote unquote psychological analysis of who I was. And then they handed me a ring binder. I remember this so vividly, a ring binder of available men and the available men on their books. I mean, I know we've just said we mustn't judge and be open minded and checklist, but they were terrible. It was like honestly and, and lived, you know, hundreds of miles away from my home. And it just didn't even meet the basic parameters of what I needed. So I walked away from that. But I would go through phases of asking my

friends and my wider acquaintance group. I would be really open about the fact that I was single and I was looking for someone. And if they knew of anyone, I was so open to real life blind dates. I love it. And actually, once you put it out there, the universe does come back with various options. And I had one of my best, most meaningful, albeit very short lived romantic flings through that, through a dear friend setting me up with her friend. And actually it performed a really important function for me in terms of my growth, my understanding of the things that I wanted and that a partner would need to want as well. So there are opportunities. There are also obviously things like running clubs. I hear that's the hot place to meet. Very popular at the moment. There are cooking classes, you could sign up to an art class. You could also sign up

mail to a reality TV program. Imagine. Just putting it out there. I've often thought about if I was single when maths first started, would I have signed up? And I think I probably would have done. Would you? Wow. I know, terrifying prospect. Charmaine, have you ever had an off app romantic experience? Yeah, I mean, you know, I started dating when I was in my late teens, early 20s,

and this app thing only came in my 40s. So you know, but I think now I do think it's harder because people when they go out, they're so intentional about how they go out and they're meeting their friend who they haven't seen for six months and it's a big catch up and all of those things, and they don't talk to people on different tables as much. But people do do it and they do go out and I think going out with your friends and kind of just being up for it, being open, you know, just kind of not automatically thinking that other people are bad or weird or annoying, I think is really

helpful. Just kind of keeping that open mind of other people can be looking for the same thing as you. And it's not just about that one person. It's about the right chemistry match and the right compatibility match of you. I have to say, I experienced Charmaine doing this recently, and it wasn't a romantic situation, but it was a situation where she was meeting someone for the first time in a group. And this very nice young man, she asked him what he did and he said, Oh, I've just graduated in law. And Charmaine was like, Oh, what's the, what's speciality? And he said, GDPR at which stage I'm like, I'm out. I don't know what to say. And Charmaine said, Oh, interesting. Why does that interest you? And it was a classic

open-ended question where then he opened up and it was really fascinating. And I think you're so right Charmaine to be open-minded and open-ended in your conversation can lead you into very interesting spaces. Charmaine, I imagine some of our listeners would be hearing your stories and I love the way you're describing having a chat with people, basically just opening up and, and being socially quite gregarious. I imagine some people listening might be listening to that and thinking, gosh, I wish I was more like Charmaine.

That would be amazing to be able to be confident enough to do that. But not everybody is. So I'm just sort of thinking, you know, if that's you, if you're listening to this and thinking, oh, if only I could, you know, connect with people in the real world, but it feels too hard. Keep in mind that you can do these things in baby steps. You know, it doesn't have to be from nothing to completely out there. You know, you might start just having a little conversation with the barista rather than just saying thank there. You might start just having a little conversation with the barista rather than just saying thank you. You might say, how's your day going?

These little baby steps toward social interaction can happen gradually. I completely agree with that idea of starting small and building up. I also think it goes back to the running club idea, to signing up to something, whether it's signing up to a pottery class. Like-minded people. Exactly. And it might not be that you meet your future romantic partner there, but you might meet someone who could turn out to be a good friend, who could turn out to be a future colleague, or who could turn out to have a cousin who wants to be set up, who could be your future romantic partner. So you are opening the universe's doors. I'm fascinated in whether there's a difference between dating in Berlin or London.

Yeah, so in Berlin, people don't talk to each other in a social situation, like in clubs or bars there's no kind of energy towards like the Friday night out there's no kind of lad energy there's no kind of girls and group energy it's very we're really serious in Germany you know and it's like so I I found that prospect I knew that's why I had to go on apps because I found that prospect of just like meeting someone out was just not gonna happen. You know, and I've lived in Berlin for a long time, but I'm not German.

So I think I knew that I would find it definitely kind of harder to pick up on those emotional cues from people who were from a different culture to me. Do you think it's true that you attract what you put out Mel? I do, I really do. When you think about the energy that you bring to an interaction, you know, if you have a very low vibe, you know, you're someone who's maybe feeling a little flat, you know, maybe you have low expectations of relationships. Maybe you're someone who's going into an interaction thinking, this person's

probably not going to like me or I'm probably not going to like them. Then you're not even going to notice someone who's, you know, really operating on a high positive vibe because you're just not in the same place as them. You know, I think there's a lot to be said for starting as you mean to go on and putting out what you want to get back. I totally agree with that. I say to my flatmate in London, I always say to her, sex begets sex begets sex. I love it. She said that to a friend of hers. And then they were out having drinks the other night. And then she told me about it and apparently

she said this, she's like, oh, my friend, Shawn Mane says this. And then he was like, sex, we get sex, we get sex. And he was like, yes. And I also said this to my Uber driver. I was like, listen, well, because you get to conversations with people, what I do anyway. And so I said it to him the other day as well. It's just like, you know, you just need to like, like your energy is kind of low.

So you and I wouldn't like, it's just not there. So I think that you should, you know, meet someone like have that energy because the hormones that come from sex are really helpful. Wait, sorry, Charmaine, you said this to your Uber driver, your energy is low, we're not going to go there because sex begets sex. Was that the context? And did you get a five

star rating? Of course I got a five star rating. He would have given me 10 if he... He was trying to get me to move in with him and his cat and I was like, that's never... Oh, he has a cat! He has a cat! He's a keeper! Charmaine, how have you let this prince go? Well, you know, I also said to a friend, you know, you've got to just jump from lily pad to lily pad and then you'll get your prince. Well, listen, I think we need how to date t-shirts that say sex begets sex begets sex.

I love it. But I would love to talk before we go. In fact, I don't, I wouldn't love to talk about it, but we should talk about dejection and rejection and how to cope with all of that. And I talk a lot in terms of failure as being data acquisition. And I think that that is one good way of looking at rejection in this kind of context. So if you are swiping through the apps and you're not getting the matches, if you do go on a date and you think it's gone really well and then you send a text the next day and that double tick turns from grey to blue, but there's no answer and you're feeling ghosted. The way for me of taking the sting out of that, but also noticing it and learning from it, is to treat it as data acquisition.

So that is something that has not gone the way that I imagined it would, or it's not gone the way that I thought it would. What has that taught me about what to do differently next time? Brilliant. What has that taught me about what this person didn't quite meet in terms of my needs? What has it taught me about how I showed up? And then you can eliminate that scenario from your inquiries and you can get going on the next date or the next experience that will bring you that step closer to the thing that is worthy of you. Look, I love that, but I've got to say that that rational style of thinking is not available to everybody. You know, particularly if they've been through a date with someone that they really, really liked and they're caught up in the emotion of it,

they're just going to be clouded by the emotion. So I think what you're describing is the aim. Yes. That we want people to get to that level. Elizabeth level of post-dating analysis. We want everybody, we want you to get to that. I mean, it's a theory I've developed since being with someone. So it's easy for me, right? Yes. Now, but it is ideal to have that rational way of putting it in perspective and depersonalizing it and saying, what can I learn from this? But also let's acknowledge that it can be a very emotional experience too. So we want both. We want head and heart or the wise mind to come forth. And sometimes it might take

a bit of having a cry with your mates, having a cocktail and debriefing what happened there, getting all of the emotion out and then sitting down in a more rational way and going, okay, what's the emotional stuff going on here? What's the cognitive or the thinking stuff going on here? And getting some clarity that way so that, you know, you are able to extract the lessons because it's not always easy. Yes. And I definitely would love to add there that don't beat yourself up about going through that process of feeling emotional and even grieving something that you've lost. And by no means should you feel like a failure because you're not bouncing back immediately. The fact that you're not bouncing back immediately probably means that you are an empathetic individual who has so much to give when it comes to love

because you are feeling things. That's an amazing thing to be able to feel all of these emotions. The whole gamut is a beautiful quality. It's not always the easiest, but it is beautiful. Charmaine, what would you say, what's your advice about coping with rejection when it comes to dating? Yeah, I think, you know, it's tough. It is personal, you know, as much as people say, oh, it's not personal, it's not you. Like it is something about you and that match

that means that it's not compatible. And if, especially if you felt like it would be, that is really hard to take. But I think we just have for me, I try and think about, I'm just a really positive person. So I don't see it as like a rejection. I see it, I try and see it as like an experience. And thank God, I didn't get further into something that wouldn't have worked with somebody that wasn't as interested. Because you know, because actually my heart wasn't broken in this scenario of rejection in that way. Like it's just disappointing. And I think kind of taking the fuel out of it. So it's not as bad as it like wouldn't it be so much worse if like you went on with this person and then, and then something else happened and then they couldn't actually deal with like the fullness and brilliance of who you are.

And instead you get to kind of explore that with somebody else and kind of keep it moving. And yeah, I just think it's really crucial to kind of not always to have the emotions, but not always to center this sort of future with somebody until it is mutually a bit more agreed, and that you can see that you're running at the same pace rather than this sort of imagined future and all of the things that you're going to do. Because that thing about potential is that it's powerful. You know, the potential of what you could do with somebody in any kind of relationship is really, really, really powerful and where a lot of long-term relationships have to kind of work on getting that sort of energy back that they had at the beginning

and it's because that potential is missing because you know what they're like in all scenarios, right? But so, like, how do you keep it going? So I just think, yeah, right? But so like, how do you keep it, how do you keep it going? So I just think, yeah, maybe it was about me, but like, because I'm in that self love, then that's okay. No, everyone has to love me or like me or to be with me or want to be my friend. And I don't have to do the same for everybody else. And that makes me feel very empowered. So I just try not to take it too personally.

And then I try and see like, what is that moment of growth? What did I learn? And like, didn't we have a nice time? And it's all right, they're a bit of a dickhead, really. I think that there will be people listening to this as well, who have just experienced so much rejection and are probably now bemoaning the lack of available romantic prospects out there, that there just doesn't seem to be anyone. And there's no easy answer to that really, is there, other than giving yourself that time off that we spoke about.

That's the energy thing, right? If you just go in with that energy and you've already decided that it's done before it's done, then like where everyone picks up on that. Because I've done that. What if you're going in with great energy? And they're not right for you, then how are they going to respond when you're vulnerable? How are they going to respond when you know? If that's happening again and again and again? Then you really have to talk to your friends and say, have I got this pattern of choosing people

and connecting with people? Like, have you noticed this for a long time? Have I been doing this? You have to talk to your friends. Yeah, and you have to be ready to hear, I guess. You have to be ready to hear what they say. Then you've got to switch it up, because the thing is, is it like the epitome of stupid is doing

the same thing over and over again, expecting the same outcome. And so it's not that app so far as like doing the same thing over again, are you meeting people on apps? It's the attitude towards the type of person that you're meeting, what they're saying, what their background is and like in terms of their relationship history, et cetera, et cetera. It's just like stop repeating the patterns and then get your friends to call you out on it. I love this dating stuff. Yes, so do we. And we hope very much listeners that you will treat us as your dating friends. We are your dating community. We're here for you. We've got your back. We're on this journey with

you and we believe in you. What a great note to end on. And before we do, Mel has a brilliant tool that she is going to talk to us about. Now, this is for all you spreadsheet nerds out there, which I am one. This is a tool to help you keep track of everyone you're dating, whether you meet them online or in real life. And it's essentially a little checklist and assessment, if you like, of every person that you meet and how they measure up against your values, against your lifestyle preferences, whether or not they're demonstrating any dealbreakers.

There's a space in there for some little notes about how the conversation went and they get an overall rating. So for those who like qualitative information, you can capture all your notes and you know, how it felt and any stories that came up. But for those who like the hard data, you can actually rate people as well. So it's a bit of fun, some of it's a little bit tongue in cheek, but it is actually a really good way of capturing all the information from those dates and being able to reflect back on them and make some more rational decisions about who to take to the next stage.

Working out what's important for you and making informed decisions sounds great. Yes. So that's Mel's spreadsheet. So next week, Mel, we're at a very exciting stage. We are going to be discussing the first date. I'm getting nervous just thinking about it. We will look forward to seeing you then. Bye bye. Bye.

How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionize dating. We want to make it better for everyone and what better way to do that than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good dating pledge. Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments, things like I will communicate clearly and with kindness, I will not ghost or breadcrumb, I will always ask consent and you can go and sign up just by putting your email in, that's all we ask.

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