How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - How To Date: The first date

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Mel and Elizabeth continue their dating journey and today, we’ve reached one of the most nerve-wracking, yet potentially thrilling, milestones: the first date.  Our guest is the fabulous Ryan Lanji, cultural producer, winner of Netflix’s Big Flower Fight and all-round icon. Ryan joins us to break down everything from the lead-up to the date, how to navigate the date itself and the immediate aftermath, as well as dating in the queer community. He also shares his own first-date stories, tips, and lessons learned - with hilarious results.  After you’ve listened, you can get all the resources and worksheets discussed at www.thepodclass.co.uk Mel and Elizabeth are on a mission to revolutionise the world of dating! We want to make it a safe, fun and rewarding experience for everyone. If you’d like to join us, we’ve put together our very own How To Date Good Dating Pledge, consisting of 10 simple ‘Dating Commandments’. Have a look and sign up for free now at www.thepodclass.co.uk  If you don’t want to wait each week for new episodes join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad free, all at once. Follow the link to sign up: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/ A Daylight and Sony Music Entertainment Production. _______________________________________________________________________ Morrisons terms & conditions Dine in -  Majority of stores and online. Excludes Morrisons Daily. More card/app required. Without More Card £17. Ends 15/02. Online varies. Please drink responsibly.   Buy 6 - Majority of stores. Excludes Scotland and Morrisons Daily. More Card/App required. Ends 16/02. Selected 75cl bottles. Max 36 bottles in store. Online excludes Champagne, max 12. Please drink responsibly.   Flowers - Available in the majority of stores. Prices may vary online and at Morrisons Daily. More Card/App required, 16+. Without More card £5. Ends 14/02.   More Card T&C’s: https://www.morrisons.com/more/terms-and-conditions/ General T&C’s https://groceries.morrisons.com/content/terms-and-conditions?srsltid=AfmBOor2xSfFNVtu22I9z5plcQkO6kId8jZ3NSdAF4X4Mt8JQkhO_ylQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to How to Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. Every week, we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. Join us for frank expert advice, brilliant guests and practical exercises that will leave you feeling empowered to make the changes you need to meet the person that is worthy of you. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. How To Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Welcome back to How To Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day.

And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. And every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, please join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now ad free all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes. Hi Mel. Hello again. How are you doing this week?

Oh my gosh. I'm so well. I'm so energized about our conversation last week. I cannot wait to get into the next one. Me too. Me too. You are wearing a fabulous pink dress. Thank you. If you're listening to this, I can't really do it justice. It's pink, but pink on a whole new level of pink. It's like a neoplatonic version of pink.

Yes. And it's very fluffy. It's so fluffy. I just want to cuddle you, but that would be inappropriate, so I'm not going to do that. But I would consent. Okay. FYI. Okay. Good to know.

Good to know. So last episode we chatted all about how to meet someone on the app, Soar in Real Life with Charmaine Lovegrove. And this week we are going to talk about the first date. So you have managed to translate the meeting into a real life date. And the way that we're going to structure this episode is that we're going to talk a little bit you and I amongst ourselves. And then we are going to talk about the communication, planning and prep leading up to a first date, the date itself, and then the immediate aftermath. We have a guest. I'm

not going to ruin the surprise. I'll introduce them later. But before that, I would love to know Mel, if you have any good first date stories. Oh my gosh. I have so many and I don't know how much I want to embarrass myself on this podcast, but it's a safe space. Thank you. Thank you. I need it because this is, you know, I mentioned in an earlier episode about being a bit smug in my approach to dating and just not having that self-awareness. This is a classic example of that. I knew that he was a personal trainer and he had his own business. And this was unconscious. I went straight into business coaching mode. There is nothing sexy about this situation.

I was asking him about his business strategy. What were his goals for the next three years? Seriously, I went into so much granular detail about what this guy was doing with his business, because this was my comfort zone, you know, and I realized later that what I was doing was just keeping him at arm's length. And that was my way of doing that and keeping him at arm's length and not showing any vulnerability whatsoever. And finish the date by marching him across the road to a bookshop and recommending three or four reference books for him to buy as he's required reading to improve his business. Now, did you get a second date? Surprisingly not.

Listen, I'm sure his business is thriving after that one-on-one coaching session. That is so interesting. And actually, it reminds me of my best ever first date story in terms of mindset, because by the time I went on this first date, I'd got to the stage where I thought there's nothing on the apps for me. It was that sort of low vibrating mindset that we spoke about in the first episode. And I turned up to this hotel bar for this first date. And I walked in and I saw this distractingly handsome man sitting by the window. And then suddenly I'm now flustered and nervous. And it's one of those open plan bars and it has this sort of very architectural chrome chair with a narrow base that then fans outwards. Sit down, take my coat off as I'm sitting down, take my bag off, put

my umbrella to one side and the chair starts wobbling. It wobbled fatally to one side. Within five minutes of meeting this distractingly handsome man, I am splayed out on this reinforced concrete floor. I have worn a short skirt and boots and I'm like, it was the most embarrassing moment of my life. Everyone saw and it was a proper fall and a proper,'m like, it was the most embarrassing moment of my life everyone saw and it was a proper fall and a proper, you know, bruises the next day. And I thought the only way I can cope with this is not to mention it and just to style it out. You're so British. I was like, I just can't, it's gone beyond. No one fell over.

Until about an hour into the date, I was like, I need to go to the loo. And I got up and he said, don't fall over. And I was like, oh, there's real chemistry here. Oh, he broke the ice. And that man is now my husband. Oh, he well and truly broke the ice. Yes. And I well and truly fell for him in all senses of the word.

He fell for him. And I love that story, obviously, because it's how I met my husband. Yes. But also because it goes into so much of what we talk about on this pod class, which is that idea of your perception, what you think is going to happen as opposed to what actually does happen. What was the first date with your husband like? Oh, well, it's a little bit different in that we were communicating online for six weeks because he was in Adelaide and I was in Melbourne, so two very different states in Australia

and about an hour flight. So we got to communicate via text really on that intellectual and emotional level before anything else, except I couldn't speak with him verbally because there was a barrier to that. Oh, accents. His accent. For those who don't know, my husband is Northern Irish and has a very strong accent. And one day during this six weeks of text communication, I thought, I'm just going to call him. And he answered. And I ended of text communication, I thought, I'm just going

to call him. And he answered and I ended up having to say to him, I'm really sorry, but I cannot understand a word you're saying. Let's go back to text. Oh my gosh. So I downgraded him back to text. So what, so yeah, how did you get through that communication period? We just kept texting and organized the first date where he came over to Melbourne and I

did everything I would tell my clients not to do on a first date. I unloaded my entire life story and I started talking in a really high-pitched voice, really, really fast, really, really loud. I sounded like Mickey Mouse. He just leant across the table and very gently put his hand on mine. And he just said, it's okay. You don't have anything to prove here. Oh my gosh. That is so masterful. Drop the shoulders.

That's so lovely. And it's held. Wow. Okay. Before we bring our fabulous guest out, I wanted to ask you about Married at First Sight as ever. Because obviously on Married at First Sight, the couple's first date is their wedding day. What do you think you've learned about first dates from witnessing that process? I think the biggest thing I've learned is that chemistry will not necessarily be there immediately, but that's okay. You know, we have so many people who come into this experiment and say, chemistry is not there, I'm out.

And I've seen people walk away because of that and miss out on something that could be potentially fabulous because there is so much kerfuffle on a first date or in this case, you know, at, at the wedding, there's so many different expectations. You're bringing in all your history. You've got nervousness, excitement, fear, all of that stuff happening at the same time. It is going to be very natural for signals to get confused and they do. Who knows how you're actually going to respond in such an unexpected environment. So when that happens on maps, one of the things that we

say to the individuals within those partnerships is give it time, give it a moment, get curious about this person, try to understand more about what's going on with this person before you walk away. That's such a good note. And again, you know, we mentioned this a lot on this podcast, but that idea that we have conditioned through movies, TV programmes, songs, is that the chemistry must be immediate for it to be love. And actually sometimes exactly as you say, by getting curious, by allowing something to build, there is a safety to that process that can end up being truly magical.

Yeah. And even the flip side is true as well. You know, I've definitely seen couples who have instant chemistry and it burns bright and burns out really quickly. You know, so it is actually only a physical connection. So I just think you've got to give it time. Okay. Let us move on to our guest. So to help us with the next bit, which is the planning and preparation that goes into a first date, the date itself, and then the aftermath. I am so excited that we get to introduce the fabulous Ryan Langie. Now, Ryan is a cultural producer from London. He is the winner of Netflix's big flower fight. And that was despite having no actual trading in floristry. It's so impressive. He's the host of Netflix's big flower fight. And that was despite having no actual trading

in floristry, it's so impressive. He's the host of BBC Three's The Big Proud Party Agency and the official party planner for Drag Race UK. Is there a better job? I don't think there is. He's also the creator of East London's alternative Bollywood night Hungama. And after recently becoming single,

Ryan has been on the dating scene. Ryan, welcome to How to Date! Thank you for having me! Do you like our plants in the studio? I honestly have no idea what plants are what. I went in there and tried my best. You did! Can I tell you, I'm a florist's daughter, so I'm so in awe of you winning that.

I must go and watch it. You have to. It's a slow burner and it gets more and more exciting. And then it's just one of those things where I just, I just learned in the trenches. Wow. And kind of like dating and basically just, just super succeeded everyone. Wow. I was about to say that is a metaphor for the dating process.

Yes. So I know that you have so much to share, particularly from your perspective of queer dating as a South Asian guy. And I'm really interested to get into it. So let's start with planning and preparation. What questions, Ryan, do you think we should ask ourselves before we're getting ready for a first date? Should we set a time limit? What do you mean by that? I mean, like setting a two hour time limit. So saying, for instance, yes, that's me at

five, but I've got somewhere to be at seven. Yeah, I thought you meant like a time that's like, I'm only going to date for six months. No, I mean, no, I'm less prescriptive on that. I mean, six months wouldn't have been long enough for me. I personally feel like when you're getting ready for a first date, it's always good to have control variables. So like, I would like to do something

that makes me feel like I'm safe, I'm comfortable, I have an escape route. I'm not lying because you don't wanna be like, oh, I have somewhere to be and then spend the whole time trying to like introduce yourself and be honest and authentic and then also be like, by the way, I'm lying. I've done that, sorry.

You're so right there. It actually does make you feel a bit tense because you're aware that you've got this big lie coming up and you've got to pretend that you've got some sort of conference call at 7 p.m. It's like when you have to go to the toilet and you're just like squeezing your butt.

Yes. You don't want to do that on a date. Like that's the same. It's the same feeling. Yeah. You want to squeeze your butt maybe in a different reference point. Yes. If the date goes well.

Got it. A sphincter clenching date. Yeah, I can see. I mean, that's pretty hot, isn't it? Hashtag. 100%. Yes, I think that the timing is a really important one. I love what you said there, Ryan, about feeling safe.

I think for that first date, because you're really, you're sussing each other out at that two-way assessment process, you don't know yet if you're going to have that sense of safety. And to be able to say, I've got somewhere to be at 8pm, but to actually have somewhere. And I think the best thing to do is to meet up with some other friends who've been on dates as well, have a bit of a dating club going, because that can be so much fun and so validating to sit there and have a bit of a debrief together. We've just all spent two hours with a date.

Let's all discuss. Yeah, exactly. I think that's a great idea. And just to leapfrog off that, I think it's also good to just chat with someone who kind of can empathize and have compassion for you. Like I've learned so much about the evolution of the way that younger people think now. And so when I got back into the dating scene,

my communication was so much more transparent and so much more honest. And I have to thank the Gen Z's for that. But like basically like I can have conversations about where my levels, where my boundaries are, like what I'm willing to put up with or not. But before, I would just go in there and be like, use me even as a punching bag if you need to. I want to hear about your ex.

I'll pay for the drinks. I used to be that person. Now I'm much more protected. So I think it's important that you realize that when you're embarking on this. Do you mind my asking how old you are? 27 if this is being filmed for TV. No. I'm 37.

Are you? You look amazing. Yes. Thank you so much. Wow. Okay. And how did you learn to establish that clarity? You said you had a lot to thank Jan Zee for,

but how did you learn that? Well, I mean, during my relationship trials and tribulations, I was hanging out with a lot of younger people because I work in such cultural fields and I have so many amazing young assistants. And so just listening to them chat about their dating life or polyamory or even having like moments of no contact with people,

I was like, wow, this is really aware. And so it just made me realize how much we don't ask ourselves what we need. I would love to talk a bit more about that idea of getting to know your needs and your worth from both a cultural and a gender perspective. So Mel, would you say that there is a gender difference in terms of the amount of people pleasing you see in the dating market? I don't think it's gender based. I think think it's personality-based. I really do. I mean,

sure there are stereotypes, but I think really, if you look at people, you're talking about different personality types and different levels of self-esteem. Self-esteem plays so clearly into that first date, doesn't it? Because it's about how you're entering into that dynamic. Are you coming in seeing yourself at that lower status or is it higher smug in my case? Or are you coming in as an equal? So I don't want to believe that that's about gender. I really do think that that's more about where that person is at and what they're bringing.

Tilda Lyle I agree with you. I think it's almost like an awareness. Gender does play a role, but I think it's about someone's awareness of gender, of constructs, of classism, of privilege. So if someone like, if I go on a date and I meet someone who immediately starts making a reference to my skin color or my culture, I start to wonder whether or not I feel comfortable. So it's important to like know when you have those feelings and how to diffuse it and regulate yourself. And so a lot of that is just self-reflection and a therapist. Oh yes, shout out to all of the therapists. They are heroes of our lifetime.

I'm including you in that, Mel. Okay, this is a big question. Go for it. Should you look up your first date online before you meet them? Baby, give me their first name and I'll find their LinkedIn. I'll know where their last three addresses were and I'll know exactly like what they ate for dinner. Not stalking at all. No, I'm like a stage five figure. Oh, you will do that every time. Yeah, but I'm really honest about it. I'm like, listen, I am a Leo Virgo Pisces. Like do not mess with me.

I will find out everything, including your social identity number. Okay. And how has that served you? I've got a lot of restraining orders. But I feel safe. But I'm safe. I find I'm a very proactive person. I take interest in things very easily. And so like I don't ever want to lose that quality. So I'm just really honest about it.

I'm like, by the way, I'm obsessed with Alba. And like I'm happy to tell you that. And like if it's weird for you, let's just view souls. Sorry, I'm about four minutes behind you. I just got the obsessive. What is it? Obsessive Alba. Yeah, I love that. Amazing. Obsessive.

Oh, yeah, I've just got it. Oh, I'm Jen Zed. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm Jen Zed. But back the set back the whole alphabet. I'm Jen X. Well, I'm proud. Yeah, I'm Gen X, but back the whole alphabet. I'm Gen X. Well, I'm proud. I'm Gen X. I'm not telling.

Am I geriatric now, Neil? Anyway, should you look them up online beforehand, Mel? Yes, absolutely. Should you? Yes, absolutely. And again, I'm coming from a safety perspective here. And of course, you won't find everything because some people are very clever with their digital footprint. But absolutely, the more information I think the better because you want to know if you're entering into a connection with someone who, for example, demonstrates

misogyny or racism or homophobia online. You know, these are things that will be deal breakers for a lot of people. So if you find out this sort of stuff in your background check, you might not choose to go on the date with the person. If the information's in the public domain, go learn what there is to learn. Like don't just look at the book, read it, and then like find out what you want to take from it. Like I don't make any assertions or assumptions about anyone when I'm learning about them, but I just like to know the information. What I think is important to mention is that there's this term that I just recently realized that's getting really popular and viral at the moment, it's called limerence.

It's like when you take an information from someone, then you start to believe a different reality of them. And so like, if you start reading information, you start making assumptions about what they're like or who they are or what their belief system is, but until you actually meet them and speak to them, you won't truly know. And so you need to stay present.

And so this is why first dates are so important because like, it's not about like what you digitally see. It's not about like how they communicate with you over text. It's about how you feel when you're with them in person. I think that's such a good way of putting it. Do your research, but stay with an open mind. Yeah. So how much thought goes into what you wear for a first date?

Okay, so I am a very flamboyant queer person, so I always like to dress to my personality or to the most popular Taylor Swift song that I'm listening to. It switches, it could be hip hop one day as well. But I always have to find a main artery of who I am, And so I don't try to like go overboard and I definitely don't try to be something I'm not. Love that. Mal, any tips? I think there's something really empowering about playing to your strengths. You know, if I was to ask one of my female clients or a female identifying client, because this does seem to be gendered, tell me all the things you love about your body. She'd probably look at me blank.

If I said, tell me all the things you hate about your body. She'd probably look at me blank. If I said, tell me all the things you hate about your body, well, there would be the list. But if we can tap into one thing that you like, even if it's your nails, it doesn't matter what it is, but highlight that thing. If it's your toes, put bright red nail polish on those toes and hang them around in front of your date. Who knows what it might be,

but make that the hero of the piece and put your focus there. It's not easy, but it makes sense. And when you do it, it can be incredibly powerful. For some people who might not feel like they are able to isolate a part of themselves that they want to emphasize. I think it's really important for them to just take care of themselves. Like I think most people, and like this is why having a gay best friend is amazing, go get yourself a gay best friend. Because this is good advice. Absolutely. You basically just need to not go out and tell all your girlfriends you're going on a date and have five glasses of wine so you're exhausted by the time the date comes up.

You don't want to try to slot in a date so you're like having a busy schedule and then all of a sudden you're rushing to meet this person and you can't wait to get it over with because you're so tired. You want to take time. You want to meditate, go to the spa, have a quiet night where you're watching an rom-com and just chilling and spending time with yourself. And then when you go on the date, you feel calmer. I think a lot of people mentally stress themselves out

about how it's going to go and what they should do that when they get there, they're just not present. And then they're so insecure. Are you available to be everyone's gay best friend? Can we make you available for download? It's available. Okay, we'll put a link in the show notes to you, Ryan. Follow me, DM me. I will not get back to you, but I will read them and laugh. Final question on the planning phase. How much should we text or banter online through the apps before we actually

meet? Is there a hard and fast rule that you stick to, Ryan? So for my recent R&D, like what I've learned is to try to set up a date as soon as possible. So if you start to smile and feel like something on the inside, just be like, hey, listen, I'd love to meet up with you. I'm free on these dates. What works for you? And if there are someone who should, you should be hanging out with, they'll set up a date and they'll adhere to those like timelines. I think that's a very, very good tip because I often found it almost impossible to translate the banter and the text into a real life meetup. People would just disappear, it would just fizzle out. And actually the thing that changed that for me

was offering set times and dates. So when it came to meeting my now husband, one of the things that I really appreciated about him, there was a consistency to his textual communication in the run-up to the first date. And then eventually he said, I'm traveling a lot for work. These are the slots that I have coming up. I'd really like to meet you for a coffee because that's low risk, because you might hate me or lunch, slightly higher

risk, but you'll get a free meal. Or would you like to meet for an evening cocktail for about two hours in the evening? And I went for the evening cocktail option. And there was something, yeah, there was something that I really liked about his sense of security is what he was offering. I completely understand where you're coming from. There is something so beautiful when someone speaks from a secure place. I think we live in this world where we're all trying to figure out what our attachment style is like, and we all are so addicted to the ones that are really dangerous for us because it feels the most familiar. And I think like when you experience someone

who's giving you a secure attachment style, it's actually like really like revitalizing. That's really sexy. Yeah, you feel really calm and really chill. I think it's quite impressive that you chose to go for this cocktail in the evening, because I find that to be the easy way out. Because as soon as you have a drink in front of you,

two of those in, and then you start just, you start to forget who you are. Yeah, that was exactly what happened. And then you say, there you go. Welcome to my podcast. I wasn't as excited as you. Yeah, well, I mean, I am now. I've successfully failed at dating.

This is why I'm here to tell you what I've learned. And I think what's really important to mention is that it's so nice to have someone who's aware of their neurodivergence. So it sounds to me like that person is hyper aware of how they'd like to be communicated with. And so they're projecting that onto you and it's making you feel secure. And so you're like meeting that halfway, which is really nice. You nailed it. It also, it made me feel secure, but it also confronted me a bit. And we'll get onto that in the next episode because we're talking about communication.

But if you're not familiar with something, it's almost like the safety of it. To me, there was a risk that it felt unsexy, which was my own dysfunction because of what we've mentioned before, Mel, about that sense of insecurity feeding into, oh, this must be passion then, because I never know where I stand.

And that's one of my major frustrations. And one of the things I'm passionate about correcting in our mindsets. Do you know it's so funny? I recently had caused to look back through my WhatsApp history. And I saw some texts that I had sent people in the run-up to first dates where I thought I was being so funny

and cool. And I read them back and I was like, baby girl, you were not. It was so, there were so many paragraphs. Do not go back. Oh full paragraphs. Yeah, I'm sorry. I was texting so much. There was too much because I'm a writer.

I was like, no, just read it back in. Oh my gosh. Anyway. Okay. What is the subtext of that text? Yeah, exactly. I, when it comes to first days, I think a couple of things that you mentioned that I think are really key here is that you need to not wonder whether

or not you are worthy or successful enough or secure enough or sexy enough. You will find yourself having a more successful date if you just believe that you're sexy to begin with. I love that. And I think self-talk is key, particularly when we're talking about that first date. What would you say to someone who was about to go on their first date, but they were absolutely plagued by that negative self-talk? I think I would do some sort of like primary, I guess, exercises where you'd

have to like write down what you're thinking and then just like rip it up and then like, just like, like get it out and throw it away. I think it's important to just do things that you love and remember that being weird is like the new normal. Like, people are so boring. And it's like, you don't wanna be with someone who's bland or beige or like chicken breast that's unseasoned. Do you wanna like, you want to be with someone

who has a bit of spice. And so like, embrace your oddities and embrace the things that you don't like. And you wanna be with someone who finds them fascinating and curious and wants to hang out with you more. Be a seasoned chicken breast is our new mantra. There it is. There we go.

That'll be our t-shirt. Exactly. There's so many things I want to do and see, like redoing the basement without having to do it all myself or doing absolutely nothing with a spectacular waterfall view, of course. So I'm starting here, investing with RBC. When it comes to reaching your goals, personalized advice and performance matter. And now you can get $300 when you invest with RBC.

Offer ends March 3rd, 2025. Terms and conditions apply. Invest with RBC today. Welcome to How to Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day and I'm Mel Schilling relationship coach. Every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. Join us for frank expert advice, brilliant

guests and practical exercises that will leave you feeling empowered to make the changes you need to meet the person that is worthy of you. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Let's move on to the date itself. Have you ever had a really difficult clash between your expectation and the reality when you got onto the first date, Ryan? Every single time I wake up, I have a clash, but when it comes to first dates, I found myself before being like, I'm going to take them to this fashion party and then we're going to get in and then we'll go for drinks at this place. And then I want to go to this movie or this event and like you immediately just set yourself up for a lot of things that could potentially go wrong. So the best dates I've

been on have been ones where it's really calm and chill, where we just meet somewhere that's comfortable for both of us. We get to know each other and then we just don't bring all of that baggage and all those experiences that I'm comfortable with in into the situation. What about as it pertains to photos specifically? So if we're talking about apps, I definitely had multiple experiences where the photo, quite rightly, that the person had chosen with which to advertise themselves was exceptionally flattering. I don't know how I would behave if I met someone who wasn't like their pictures. Like that's like hardcore cat. Has that all happened to you. It's happened to me.

Big point, I think goes back to what we said earlier about moving from online to IRL as quickly as possible. And if someone is catfishing or doing any kind of scam, they're going to resist meeting you in person. Not to quote bridesmaids, but you can't trust anybody. Yeah, but like I think what's important is that people understand like how much they're willing to play into things. Like people pleasing is so key in this. But at the end of the day, on a first date, like sometimes you end up not doing things that you don't want to do or, or you do things that you don't want to do. And like, I think it's really important that you just have an awareness of it.

Other than catfishing, any don'ts for a first date. So I'm really interested in the idea of conversation because it can be such a nerve wracking and strange structure, the first date, that it's very difficult to access that part of you that is able to chat easily. And a lot of people suffer from social anxiety or have neurodivergence or anything, any measure of things that makes that kind of conversational opening quite difficult. What tips would you have for that, Ryan?

Okay, so I have a lot of tips actually. So the ones that come to mind are don't overshare. I think it's so easy to just show up and all of a sudden start talking about your ex or your mommy issues. Like you wanna get to know the other person. So ask questions and get involved in that capacity. Don't assume anything.

I wouldn't assume someone's gender. I wouldn't assume where someone's from. I wouldn't assume their level of class in life. Like I would just ask questions and get informed and be really gentle and kind. I think like it's really important to tell someone if you're not sure what they're talking about rather than pretending that you know.

I think it's important to discuss things in any capacity, whether it be like the situation that you're in, like is the music too loud or shall we split the bill? Like that kind of chat can really bond you with someone. And then during moments of silence, not to really be in fear or scared. And so I would say don't panic. That would be my next one. Yes. Now, oversharing is an interesting one. When do you know whether you're oversharing or just showing up as yourself, Mel? Cause sometimes actually you do need to say, these are the kinds of things that are important to me.

And this is what I'm looking for. Should you do that on the first date? It is an individual choice. If not the first date early on, you know, cause when we're talking about deal breakers, like for example, I want to have a family or this is my religion, you know, these sorts of things that are going to determine whether this is going to be a positive relationship for you or not, you've got to get them out there straight away. Because they're reasons to not date a person if they don't show up. I think there are definitely gentle ways to have these conversations, aren't there? Asking open-ended questions,

asking them to tell you a story. And this podcast has never come at a better time because we have artificial intelligence. And so how it's benefited me is that whenever I'm having conversations with people, I'll always go to AI and be like, could you write this in a more open-ended way? Or can you write this in a more polite way?

And it really rephrases the tone because I'm not going to assume that everyone can speak or understand the world the way I do or like yourselves. I think it's important that like if you are struggling and you don't want the wrong impression to come across, just like lean on technology. That's an amazing idea. Wow, that's a great idea. Can I ask, you mentioned your female identifying friends and straight friends and do you think that there are any differences dating as a queer individual? Yeah, 100%. We have to break down so many mental barriers and we all have to overcome

so much trauma as queer people. Like not only do we have to become authentic in who we are, we also have to embark in this community that no one's really taught us. There's no rulebook for being gay. Only now are we having role models in the queer community because they were all completely perished during the AIDS epidemic. So now we're seeing older queer people who are successful and happy, and it's so beautiful. I think what we need to do is spend a lot of time with ourselves and get rid of our shame and our shadows,

and then we're able to actually like have healthy relationships with people. I'm really proud to be where I am, and I hope I can be a role model for other people. But I feel like when you're a queer person and you're dating, you have to ask a lot of questions in a very polite and consentful way where you need to understand someone's gender, someone's orientation, someone's sexuality.

And like these might seem very confusing to someone who's I would call them heteronormative, which are people who are predominantly straight. But like we just get to see the world in such a prismatic way. Like we understand emotion in such a beautiful hue. Like as a queer person, that pink is not just pink to me. That is so many cultural moments. And not to quote Miranda Priestly. Or I'm Devil Wears Prada. Thank you. You're amongst friends.

But so my, I guess to wrap it up, just be gay. Yes. Be gay. Be gay about life. Be gay about dating. Just like, just really enjoy not having to be so traditional and so streamlined. And I love that you said earlier that you've learned a lot from the younger generations about dating.

I think we heteronormative chicks over here can learn so much from the queer community about openness, about acceptance, about not making assumptions. Yeah. I think we heteronormative chicks over here can learn so much from the queer community about openness, about acceptance, about not making assumptions. Yeah, that's a really good test as well. Like this is a good exercise if you go on a first date, whoever you're meeting up with, don't even say anything in any pointed way,

just say, oh, my pronouns are she, her and see how they react to it. I think from a, you can test and see how, how aware someone is, how well read they are. And like, and how, what their level of comfort is with like discussing their own gender and identity. It can really help you understand yourself. And I think as we get older now, like ideas of polyamory are coming up where people want to be in open relationships.

Like just instead of being like, let's have kids, or you do want kids, just be like, cool, are you open to polyamory? Like how, what kind of relationship are you looking for? Those kinds of questions are not invasive. Love that. I've got a couple more topics on this part that I want to cover before we get onto

the immediate aftermath of a first date. What if a first date is going historically badly and you just need an out? Do you think you should have some helpful friend who could call you? Or do you pretend that you've got a text just sort of saying that there's been some family emergency? What do you do? As much as I love the drama of it all and like wanting to send someone an emoji so I can have an escape route through the bathroom, like it's just not realistic.

It's just like, it's just so TV movie. I think what's really key is just to be honest. I'm never rude about it. I'm just like, listen, like, I just don't feel like there's a connection here or... My God, did you hear my gasp? Did you hear? A little bit nervous. Yes. I felt as a conflict avoidance, emotionally repressed British person. I didn't know what to do with myself. Yeah. I mean, it would make you feel uncomfortable, but I, not me. And again, it goes back to that thing of saying who you are. Yeah. That you don't lie, don't start with a lie.

Yeah, well, I mean, being polite is cute, but it just makes a fool out of you. Like at the end of the day, you just, sorry. Stop personally attacking me. This is not an attack or an intervention. Mel, what would you say? Have you ever had to escape a bad first date? Absolutely. Cowardly, I would say.

And we'll go, what did you do? Well, literally the, the friend, get the friend to call me because I'm obsessed with sex in the city. So of course there was that moment where Charlotte calls Carrie and says something bad happened. I've literally done that. Um, don't recommend it. I love what you're saying, Ryan.

I think about authenticity. I really believe now in start as you're mean to go on. So are you entering into a potential relationship based on a lie, based on deception, or are you just being real? And as hard as it is to say, the chemistry is just not there, let's call it a night. It's real. And there's a thing called dating karma, you know, and I really do believe that in giving real feedback to someone, that means that there's a chance that they will pay that forward to the next person they date.

Yeah, life, life is short and it's uncertain times. I think it's best to just like make things end when it needs to end and not leave people in this area of limbo or ghosting. It's just not cute. Like asking and connecting about like someone and how they feel is so much more beautiful than just being like, it's a no from me

or I'm just not attracted to them. Yeah. I think curiosity is the recurring theme for this episode, which I love as a value. Okay, so we're tipping into the immediate aftermath now because I don't think there should be any hard and fast rules about what you do or don't do on a first date. And I have had sex after first date. I've kissed on a first date. I have had sex after a first date. I've kissed on a first date and I don't think... Isn't that, that's all what you do on first dates, right?

That's why I'm so good at this. Lots of practice. Yeah. I just think you should be easy on yourself and not adopt this rigid mindset. I think you should be flexible as to what you're open to. So true. I mean, I was saying before that like,, I always thought that, like, my dating

life was like a private garden, but it's really like a public park in that respect. Like, I just literally like, there's a lot of people who know a lot of information about me intimately. And so I don't really get scared of that. And I don't judge myself for it. I think what's really key to mention here is that like, I feel like we just need to always get back to a place of being secure and happy with what our experience is. So like you just mentioned having sex on the first date or kissing. It's like you can have a hookup. A hookup is totally cute. But then you can also suggest after the hookup, be like, oh, I really liked you and I really liked that experience.

Did you want to go on a date? And then you can reframe it and then get some more security out of it rather than just having a hookup and then being like, I don't know, was that a date? I don't really remember it because I had so many tequila shots. Or like questioning whether or not they're gonna text you back

and having all of these expectations that are like relationship expectations from something that was so flippant when you can just take the power back. I think that was so interesting actually because now I look back on it, the relationships that ended up being more serious for me were ones where I intentionally did take my time.

Actually, if I had sex after a first date, it was generally because I felt like it was going to be a short and fabulous fling. And so that's really helpful to put it in that mindset. Mel, do you think there are any hard and fast rules when it comes to what you do next after the first day? I would say being real is really important. I'm so not into the rules. Did you ever read the rules?

I've read of it and I know all about it, but I never read it. It's revolting. Yeah. It's literally written in the fifties. Who looked like a straight man. For women on how to be basically. By a straight man. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

And it's, it's revolting. It's all about playing games and I do not buy it. It's basically how to manipulate. So don't buy it, throw it out. A better approach is to, if you feel it, say it. So this, I'm very aware that you and I, Ryan are talking about coming into dating from a very confident place. And I'm also very aware that we're talking from a cultural perspective to a

predominantly British audience. And that might look different the way an Aussie might do it. Totally. I mean, I'm born in Canada, so, and my diaspora is South Asian as well. So, and I'm queer. So there's so many different levels to my experience. And I think that's so key. And so it's like, I've, I've had to unlearn, relearn and like figure out who I am amongst

all of that. Mm. Yeah. And I think, you know, you talk about being conflict adverse and what does that mean in the dating world? Well, what it often means is finding it hard to say no or to let somebody down. And I think that's a very common experience, you know, for a lot of people in dating, I want to be liked.

You know, I want to be the nice person. But it can also mean getting yourself into some really tricky situations. Definitely. And for anyone listening, Mel is looking at me when she's saying that and you're completely right to because actually, and I was very lucky that I didn't get into difficult situations, because I could absolutely have butted heads up against the idea of consent. And again, that's something I've learned so much from the younger generation about, that actually, if you are constantly in the process of saying yes because you want someone to like you and you

think that's the best way of doing it, actually you can end up as you say Mel in a very dangerous setting where you're saying yes to things that you're not actually giving consent for. It's interesting once you've said yes three times you're more likely to continue saying yes and that's actually a manipulation technique that some people use in dating or in sales. They encourage you to say yes to three things, three low stakes things. And then from a psychological perspective, you're more likely to say yes to later things in the date.

So as the person, you know, being on the date and wanting to make informed and empowered decisions about what to do next. It's important to be aware of that. Have you been lulled into this situation where you're saying yes at least three times? And what does that mean for you in terms of saying yes to the next thing? Great note. I think one of the things that I returned to after first dates was whether I felt aligned with myself. And the only way that you can know the answer to that is by first knowing yourself. And we go right back to the first episode we did, Mel,

where we spoke about that notion of dating yourself first to work out whether you're ready to date. Because if you are feeling in any way that you were putting on an act or that someone didn't welcome you or see you as you are feeling in any way that you were putting on an act or that someone didn't welcome you or see you as you are, then that for me would be a pink flag. And the reason I say it's pink rather than red is because sometimes it can be something that you have done, as in it can be a nervousness that you had not to show up as yourself. And so the other person could only respond to that.

So it's not always their issue, but that's definitely something I would ask. You're so right. And something I've realized recently is that my failed relations with the past aren't necessarily those people being bad people, it's that they amplify something that I don't like in myself. It's not a proverb,

this is just a saying that my sister told me. She said to me, the person that you're meant to be with is not someone who causes butterflies in your stomach. It's someone who makes you feel really calm and really grounded. Isn't that what I say all the time? You're so, so right. And actually maybe a better way for me to phrase that is, did they make you feel good about yourself? So what if after this first date that you think has gone well, you are rejected by the other person Mel. How do you protect

yourself from that, pick yourself back up after that, avoid catastrophizing over that? Well, you can't protect yourself from it, I guess is the first thing, which is why going back to our first episode, you really need to be ready to step into the dating pool because it's tough. It's tough out there and part of the game is rejection. It is going to be in the mix. It's just a fact. So I guess that's the first thing to accept that rejection is part of the dating experience. And it's not even necessarily about you. You know, it's not something to overthink or to get really hung up on. It is just part of the process. It's just feedback. Reality checking can be really helpful here. And this

is where, you know, having a dating buddy or another friend who's going through the process can be so powerful because we can overthink and catastrophize and, you know, turn things into something they're not. It can be good to have that, that grounding person, you know, for that reality check because sometimes, you know, they are just saying this Friday doesn't actually work, but I'd really love to see you another time. It's not a rejection. Yeah. But are you reading it as one?

Yeah. Yeah. And actually, even if you are being rejected, there is a way of looking at that, that as Mel touched on, it doesn't have to be a definition on who you are. Most likely, it's a result of their emotional psychology. It's a result of all of the experiences that they've been through.

This is Carry the Fire. I'm your host, Lisa Laflamme. Carry the Fire, a podcast by the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation featuring inspiring personal stories about what happens when world leading doctors, nurses, researchers, and their patients come together to ignite breakthroughs. Carry the Fire launches Monday, January 27th, wherever you get your podcasts. wherever you get your podcasts. Before we end, I just want to ask you both. So say you've had a successful first date

and you want to translate it into a second date. Any tips for helping that happen? I think if you would like to have a second date, just be upfront about it. Just be like, listen, I had a really great time. Would you be open to hanging out again? I also think it's always a great idea to suggest something to be like, oh, I'm going to go to this and I don't have anyone to go with, would you like to come?

Or asking them if they have anything that they'd like to do with you. I couldn't agree more. I think that was really well put. And I think this flies in the face of game playing. You know, you hear people say, oh, you must not text until three days after the date. It is boring. It's ridiculous. And it is, you know, it's not starting as you mean to go on that is bringing deception into the relationship. So absolutely be out and proud about how you feel about this person. Let them know. And I love the idea of giving an, a specific invitation. So it's not just this broad open-ended, let's do it again sometime, but Saturday, I'm going to see this show.

Why don't you come along? Yeah. And if you're not feeling it, what are some easy sentences that we can reach for rather than feeling like we need to go to someone to avoid the conflicts? Something that I've heard, I haven't done this myself, but I've certainly heard clients do it, is really just commenting on the chemistry as though it's separate from the two of you. So there was you, there was me, and there was our chemistry. So saying something like, I think we both noticed that the chemistry just wasn't there, really enjoyed chatting to you,

and I wish you all the best in your dating world. Even if the other person did feel there was loads of chemistry, there's, there's a saving face element to that that I think that they will really appreciate. Okay. This has been amazing. I could talk about this for hours, but we do have an exercise mail, don't we? You are going to talk a little bit about conversational openers that we could use on a first date.

So this is just a helpful little, little guide that will enable you to feel a little bit more confident going into it. So it gives you a few things like, for example, some open-ended questions to have up your sleeve, because there's no point sitting on a date asking yes-no questions and have them give you one answer, one word answer, and you're stuck. So this is all about encouraging storytelling, which I think is the key to a good date. Because when you tell a story or you listen to a story, there's such an emotional connection that develops there.

And one of the things about coming prepared with your own stories to tell is you can make sure that those stories highlight some of your strengths. So let's say my greatest strength is my humor. I might tell a story that shows me, you know, illustrating it and getting excited and being humorous. Or maybe it, you know, my greatest strength is my healthy lifestyle. Maybe I'll share a story about, you know, finding the perfect bok choy, you know, whatever it is, and see how that person responds. So I really like to think of a first date as a bit like being a detective, you're gathering evidence to see how well this person aligns with your values, your lifestyle preferences, and indeed if there's any

deal breakers there. One of the examples you gave us about holidays. Yes. Tell me about your favourite holiday, the best holiday you were ever on. Why is that a good one to use? I think a holiday, well firstly it's a bit disarming because it's taking them into a relaxed mode, hopefully, a holiday. It's away from the confines of their everyday routine and life. So straight away that can be quite disarming. But also think of all the different ways this person will show you who they are by describing a holiday. Were they well organized in the way

that they put it together? Were they adventurous? Did they take risks? Did they socially put themselves in situations where they'd meet new people or did they avoid that? You can hear what I'm saying here, can't you, in terms of all the different ways that they will show you who they are in that holiday story. So interesting. It's like, were they with family or friends? Were they just locked in their hotel room watching Netflix or were they on a lad's trip to Magaluf? Or did they do something that you find inspiring? It's such a revealing question. So this little guide will help you construct some good questions to ask, some really good

ways to, I guess, arm yourself with a little bit of knowledge before you go into that first date. And as ever, Mel, those worksheets and exercises are available for listeners to download right now at thepodclass.co.uk, link in the show notes. Ryan, thank you so much for being such a fabulous guest. My absolute pleasure. I would date you 100%. I mean, yeah. I think we'd make a great throuple. We would make a great polyamorous throuple. I'm so here for it. Yes. Okay. So after the first date, like it or not listeners, it's the awkward time of sitting by the phone.

And that's what we're going to be exploring next in all of its many attributes. The big old topic of communication. So thank you so much for tuning in for this week's episode of How to Date, the first date. We've loved being in your ear holes and we hope that we've helped. It's goodbye from me, Elizabeth Day. And goodbye from me, Mel Schilling. Good luck, daters. How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionise dating. We want to make it better for everyone. And what better way to do that than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good

dating pledge. Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments, things like I will communicate clearly and with kindness, I will not ghost or breadcrumb, I will always ask consent, and you can go and sign up just by putting your email in, that's all we ask. You can go and sign up at thepodclass.co.uk. That's the podclass, P-O-D-C-L-A-S-S dot co dot UK. Let's make dating better for everyone. Thank you so much for listening and please do like, follow and share with everyone you know who might want to listen to. Who knows?

One of them might even turn out to be your future romantic partner. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Welcome to How to Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. Every week, we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life.

Join us for frank expert advice, brilliant guests and practical exercises that will leave you feeling empowered to make the changes you need to meet the person that is worthy of you. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.