How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - How To Date: The most important relationship you’ll ever have

Episode Date: March 24, 2025

For the final episode of How To Date (sob!) Mel and Elizabeth look at the most important relationships any of us can have in our lives: the one with ourselves.  We unpack what this means in practical terms. How do we nurture a healthy sense of self-respect - and why can this sometimes feel so challenging? How can we ensure interdependence rather than co-dependence? We explore why being clear about your own worth is a fundamental building block in any sustainable relationship with another person. And we are joined by two VERY special guests who offer unique insights into what Mel and Elizabeth are actually like in a relationship… After you’ve listened, you can get all the resources and worksheets discussed at www.thepodclass.co.uk Mel and Elizabeth are on a mission to revolutionise the world of dating! We want to make it a safe, fun and rewarding experience for everyone. If you’d like to join us, we’ve put together our very own How To Date Good Dating Pledge, consisting of 10 simple ‘Dating Commandments’. Have a look and sign up for free now at www.thepodclass.co.uk  If you don’t want to wait each week for new episodes join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad free, all at once. Follow the link to sign up: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/ A Daylight and Sony Music Entertainment Production. _______________________________________________________________________ Morrisons terms & conditions Majority of stores and online. Subject to availability. Morrisons Daily may vary. More Card/App required, 16+. Flowers £6 without More Card. Chocolates 210g, £6 without More Card. Ends 30/03 Wine or Fizz offer excludes Scotland and Morrisons Daily. Selected 75cl bottles. Max 36 bottles in store and 12 online. Ends 30/3. Online excludes champagne, see online for details. Please drink responsibly. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi everyone, I'm David Duchovny. Join me on my podcast, Fail Better, where we use failure as a lens to reflect on the past and analyze the current moment. I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie O'Donnell, and Kenya Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver, to understand how both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world. Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Jesse Tyler Ferguson, host of Dinners on Me,

and I've got something very cool coming your way. I cannot wait for this. I sat down with none other than Ty Burrell, also known as my brother-in-law, on Modern Family for 11 seasons, and let me tell you, when we get together, it's impossible to stop laughing. You're gonna love this episode,

and of course, you're gonna love Ty, because honestly, he's the best, and who doesn't love him? And thanks to Airbnb, we got to record in the coziest little Opry ski cabin in Utah, complete with takeout from one of Ty's own restaurants, Beer Bar. So picture this, two old friends, a crackling fire, some seriously good food, and a whole lot of tea spilling.

Yes, meaning that we gossiped, but also we spilled our tea. Anyway, I can't wait for you to listen. How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Welcome back to How to Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. And every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself

on the apps and in real life. And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, please join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now ad free all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes. Mel, I cannot believe it, but this is our last episode. We have arrived. This has been the most incredible journey. It really has. I have loved spending time with you, number one. I've loved dating you. Well, it doesn't finish here, my friend. I tell you, that's for sure. That's so true. And actually, that segues perfectly into today's topic because although

we are leaving you, and we hope, dear listener, that we are leaving you and we hope dear listener that we are leaving you equipped with the skills that you need to navigate dating we're also always going to be here we're always going to be here in your back catalogue and we want to leave you with the idea of constant evolution and part of that evolution is our relationship with ourselves isn't it, Mel? Absolutely. You know, in thinking about this final episode, I did quite a lot of thought into what could be one really clear message

that we could leave our listeners with. And what I arrived at was this. There is one thing you can control in a relationship, and that's yourself. Let's focus there. And we started this pod class asking the question, are you ready to date? And part of that is obviously unwrapping your own sense of self and where you're at with your self-esteem. Last episode we heard from Michelle Ellman about the knocks that your self-esteem can

take through heartbreak and rejection. And so this episode, that's what we're going to discuss. We're going to discuss how to accept yourself and how to love yourself. Now, you and I were giggling before we started recording because I hate that phrase. Why do you hate it? This is the thing. I'm like, why am I so triggered by the idea of falling in love with yourself. I suppose I'm of a generation and one might say a nationality, which might believe that falling in love with oneself is just self-indulgent and spoiled. You're so British. I'm so British and completely messed up. No, I get it. In Australia, we'd say you're up yourself.

Yes. Yeah, we have that here too. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Let's not be up ourselves. I think we can borrow a leaf from the American book here. I think the Americans are very good when it comes to being open and proud about self-love. I think we can really take some of that on. It's also that it reminds me of masturbation, which is again, it's a different podcast. I mean, I'm totally here for it, but that's maybe a different subject. But tell me what that phrase, falling in love with yourself means to you, Mel, from a therapeutic perspective.

I love the idea of this concept, falling in love with yourself, particularly after a breakup, you know, and this flows very nicely after our chat with Michelle. I think there's something here about putting the pieces back together and starting to love the bits that, you know, the wobbly bits, as we like to say, loving the wobbly bits in yourself, the bits that maybe previous partners have criticized or that you haven't enjoyed in the past. Coming back to that place of, I guess, equilibrium and a big part of that is self-love. And if we break that down, what is self-love? You could look at it from a number of perspectives, but from a psychological perspective, I really

look at it in terms of firstly well, firstly, self-worth. So what is the worth that you place on yourself? And for those of us who've been knocked around in relationships a little bit, that can take a bit of a tumble. You can sort of see yourself as not deserving of love or of happiness or of success. So getting back to that ground zero point again, resetting and going, I actually am worthy of great love and great happiness. And you might not believe it at first, but this is where things like affirmations can come in and can be really, really powerful. You know, put it on your wallpaper, on your phone or write it on your mirror with lipstick.

I am worthy. That's step one. And once you start to believe in that worth and really believe it, you know, not just have the words there, but actually take it on and have a belief that you do deserve a great relationship, you can then move into acceptance. So accepting your oblivious, you know, there are parts of yourself that may not be perfect, that may make mistakes when it comes to relationships, who may even repeat those mistakes. You know, we all do it at times. But just accepting that that's okay, and that you don't actually have to be perfect to go into your next relationship. It's so interesting that notion of self acceptance, because I think you're completely right and

so wise. And I think for many years, what I struggled with was the fact that there are parts of me that I think are really unlovable and unlikable. And I think the penny dropped for me when I had a session with a therapist who said, yeah, that's fine. There are these shadow sides to everyone. And actually one of the least healthy things you can do is live in a state of denial because you're so ashamed of them. That actually what makes you you and what makes you unique is an acceptance and acknowledgement of these sides. And by accepting and acknowledging, you can then choose whether to react to them, whether to respond to them or not. But what are some practical tools for, other than the

affirmations, for those things that feel so grubby and that maybe you have been conditioned to believe are grubby by a parental figure in your life? How can we start unpacking that? I think exactly what you and I are doing right here, sitting with a friend and talking about them and even laughing at them. You know, I think humor can be such a great tool here, you know, particularly if it's something that you're feeling a little bit of shame about, bringing it out into the light with a trusted friend and just chatting about it, laughing about it. Maybe talking about where this particular issue or character flaw has brought you on down in the past. I mean, the value here is in learning the lesson so that you don't fall into that trap again. That aspect of yourself,

let's say you have a selfish streak, who doesn't? But maybe that did rear its ugly head in your last relationship. Maybe chat to your friends about, okay, when does my selfishness come out? Is there something that my partner did that really triggered that side? Was it coming out, for example, when I was feeling a bit threatened or maybe a bit fearful? Was it coming out when I was feeling insecure? So what we often find is if you dig a little bit deeper beneath one of those ugly wobbly bits, there's often some real vulnerability there. And that's where the good stuff is.

So if you can actually get to that point of, okay, when I was behaving like the proverbial bitch in that relationship, What was actually going on was I was feeling a little bit scared that my partner was going to leave me. That's where the value is. Because very often I can think I'm feeling one thing, but when I sit with it, when I think I'm feeling sad and then I sit with it and I take myself off and I have 10 minutes just closing my eyes in silence thinking, why am I feeling sad? Very often it's actually masking another feeling that I'm responding to from decades ago. Very often it can be anger that has this acceptable,

socially acceptable face of sadness. And that is something that you can only get to know once you spend time with yourself. And you're right, as our queen, Brene Brown says, shame thrives in silence. And it's a quote that I come back to again and again. Therefore, the antidote to that is to bring it out, as you were saying, Mel, into the light and to find someone trusted that you can speak to about that.

And sometimes that trusted person will end up being yourself. And that's really where we want to get to, isn't it? Yes. And this is why I love journaling so much as a tool. You know, I think, and that doesn't have to be sitting with a book and writing it. You know, I know a lot of people who use voice notes in their phone and just have a little chat to yourself in a way of opening up, exploring things that are coming up, looking at it from

different perspectives and trying to understand it. You know, you might write or you know, you might just go for a long walk and be with nature and meditate, or maybe you sit on a yoga mat and do that. You know, we all have our own way of going internal. But I think not doing that comes at a great risk. I've never thought about voice note journaling, which is ironic given I'm a podcaster. That really appeals to me. Yes, it would suit your style. It would, wouldn't it? What if someone has in the past lost themselves in a relationship or a series of romantic relationships. How do they ensure that that

doesn't happen again? I would suggest that this is probably one of the most common things I hear from people. I lost myself in that last relationship and whilst it means something slightly different for everyone, it can be quite a subjective experience. Overall, I find it tends to mean when I sort of unpack it with people, I forgot to be me. I was so focused on pleasing the other person or holding onto them so that they wouldn't leave or whatever they were doing that was focusing on the relationship and the other person that they forgot to focus on themselves. So again, as women, we are trained from the time we're little girls to serve everyone

else's needs before our own. And when people become parents, that becomes magnified because the child must come first. And so when you talk to women, for example, who are single mums and are dating, this becomes such a big issue. They put all of their energy into maintaining that family unit that their own needs come last. And if they do go out dating, they're not putting the time to think about it and to really nurture themselves through that process. I think we need to do a lot to support our sisters who are single parents and dating.

Can you talk a little bit about with or without you? I love this and I learnt it very, very recently. Imagine coming to a relationship and saying, probably not out loud because that would be weird, but in your mind saying to this person, I'm going to have a great life with or without you. It is so empowering. It is so calming. And it's very much saying, I'm stable. I'm standing firm here in this, or rather on this path to a positive life. It would be really great if you join me, but if you don't, I'm going to do it anyway. It blew my mind when I heard you say that and also that you can apply it in business settings as well.

Absolutely. Imagine coming to the negotiating table with that energy in hand. There's something really, really beautiful and empowering about that because it gives you agency and it's so respectful. That's the key, isn't it? It comes down to self-respect. Absolutely. And it takes the desperation feeling out of the equation. Because if you're saying that this is something I'm doing anyway, if the person comes along and joins you, that's a bonus. Yeah.

As opposed to desperately grabbing onto them and holding on in order to have a positive life, you can have a positive life anyway. So what does it look like when someone is dating with this kind of self-love? She said, cringing as she used the phrase. You can do it. I can do it. I can do it as part of my self-acceptance. What might someone like that look like? Well, in previous episodes, we've talked about the whole idea of attachment theory and attachment styles.

And I guess someone who has developed and preserves a good level of self-love is going to be securely attached. So you're not going to see that clinginess, that desperation to hold on to the person. Also, you're not going to see that putting up all the walls and pushing someone away to keep that distance and preferring not to be vulnerable. You're going to see someone who is quite grounded. When I think of someone who has self-love and who is also securely attached, I think of them with bare feet and getting grounded into the earth. It's that kind of sense of, I have my own roots here. These roots are supporting me to live the life that I want to live. And if you want to come along and be a beautiful branch to add to this tree,

then that's an absolute bonus. Another great metaphor there. I think a really crucial part of this is that when you truly know and respect yourself, it gives you the courage to make difficult but necessary decisions. Can you talk a bit about decision-making Mel and how it plays into this? Yeah, I think having that self-knowledge for starters, but also a real trust, a deep trust in yourself, enables you to listen to your intuition when it comes up. You know, I speak to people all the time who have been in relationships that have messed them around and really pushed and pulled and had them feeling like they don't know whether

they're up or down. You know, that confusion that comes from perhaps a person who's giving mixed messages or who's maybe being manipulative. And it's very easy to come out of that kind of relationship, not trusting yourself. What's key here is to be able to look at a new situation and have a real belief that you're going to step into that situation and make the right decision. And that really just comes from experience, so from doing it. So if you come out of a relationship and you are at that point where you're doubting your decision-making ability, what would be really good is to do some little social experiments

and to put yourself in situations where you need to make decisions about things that are reasonably low stakes. So where no one's going to be upset or hurt. You know, maybe it's about, you know, you might start with the type of coffee you're going to have. But essentially getting some practice at listening to what that little voice inside you is telling you to do. But then also coming back to what Emma was talking about in a previous pod class about

the wise mind. So balancing the rational, so the really practical side of things with the emotional, because both are really, really important here. Yes, that idea of starting small can be incredibly potent, actually, can't it? And you can start small in terms of acts of self-love too. You can start small by saying something, just one tiny thing that you like about yourself. I'm punctual. You can start there and build from that. And as you're talking, I was reminded of a past relationship of mine, which in many ways was a really nice relationship. It wasn't toxic by any measure, but I did not know myself. And I really remember him asking

me, where do you want to go for lunch? And I had no answer. My response would be, I don't know, where do you want to go for lunch? I want to go where you want to go for lunch. That will make me happy. And genuinely, after years of doing that, you then, I lost touch with my own desires. One loses touch with what one actually, actually wants. And it took me a really long time to build up from that again. And in the interim, I did get into a toxic relationship, which did exploit that part of me. And when I eventually left that relationship, I did it because my instinct kicked in and it was as though I had hit a wall, an emotional wall where I didn't know why, but I knew I had to leave.

And that's why I always say to people who were struggling in a relationship, I don't know whether to leave or not, I'm just not sure. I think that at some point your clever psyche will take over if you let it. Your instinct, as you say, will just kick into gear if you let it and if you respect it enough. And that goes to the heart of what you were saying about having then the resilience and the self-knowledge to understand that you can do that. And there's something to be said for responsible quitting there, where having made the decision to leave that toxic relationship, and I probably left it too long, but I did leave, it's made me feel more empowered to leave or quit other things.

Brilliant. I mean, what you're describing there is a very definition of confidence. You know, you've had the runs on the board in the past, so you've actually had those small wins and some bigger wins. So you can go and draw on that internal data of I've done this before, so I know I can do it again. And so this is where I think if you are coming out of a relationship and you're feeling depleted in this way, absolutely put yourself in those situations where you can start making decisions again and building them up to bigger and bigger decisions so that you're not, you're not vulnerable

in that way. Because you're allowed to do that. You're allowed to work out what it is that you think will make you happy, fulfilled, safe and then act accordingly. And you're also not only allowed, but we are encouraging you to communicate that to your significant other. Consider this your permission slip, our gorgeous listeners. Ask for what you want. That's your job to ask for your needs to be met. Yes, and it's so often said in sort of old sitcoms, I'm not mind reading, you know, love.

But it's sort of true. Your mind cannot be read. And in fact, it shouldn't be able to be because it's your mind and you get to live there. Can we talk a little bit about celibacy? That's something that's come up on Married at First Sight a bit in the most recent UK series. We had Sasha who had opted not to sleep with anyone until she found her next serious relationship. Do you think that that can be a powerful tool? I mean, it's not for everyone, right? It's not for everyone. And I guess there is a bit of confusion around the terminology here too. And we found that, you know, as we were talking to Sasha about it. I guess there is a bit of confusion around the terminology here too. We found that,

as we were talking to Sasha about it. I guess celibacy is really a decision for life, whereas abstinence is more of a, this is where I'm at right now for a season, if you like. I think really what she was talking about was abstinence. So this is where perhaps someone comes out of a relationship and feels that, you know, they've been giving, giving, giving so much to the other person that they feel a bit drained and just want to put the energy back into themselves. And that includes their sexuality. So this can be a really strong empowered choice. This can be about, I'm not giving of myself to anyone at the moment, I'm just investing back in

me. And that might be whilst you're dating, you know, you can absolutely go on a dating journey and choose to abstain from sex, as long as you're open and upfront about it. You know, you don't want any surprises. You don't want to find yourself in a situation where someone's going to be pressuring you to do something you don't want. You don't need to check into a nonary just yet. Not yet. And actually by the same token, you could be going through a process of loving yourself and being in a really important relationship with yourself and also be having sex with

people. Oh, of course. Yeah. Absolutely. I think I've done that in the past. I think I've actually found that helpful in terms of that thing that we keep going back to, that idea of data acquisition. The things that don't work actually end up being learnings in a really powerful way. And maybe that is about exploring that side of

yourself that is sexual and that is romantic. And that will give you a closer sense of who you are is romantic and that will give you a closer sense of who you are and a more validating sense of self-worth too. Yeah. I think if you are in a position where you do have your feet on the ground, you are having that sense of groundedness and feeling centered, then going out and exploring your sexuality is a fabulous thing to do. particularly if you're confident enough to communicate exactly where you're at with all of your partners. I think as long as you're not putting yourself in a situation that's going to lead to confusion, if you can be upfront about this stuff, go for it.

That's fab. And it's important most of all to remain upfront and open and aware of yourself and accepting of yourself within a relationship too isn't it Mel? I mean that's really what we're coming to with this pod class. It's this moment where we are happy with ourselves and we are able to continue that relationship with ourselves within a romantic relationship with someone else. It's the ultimate goal really, isn't it? You know, we can talk as much as we like about self-actualization and all the work that we can do on being the best individual that we want to be. But you and I, we're here to talk about relationships, aren't we? We are.

So imagine if you could take that self-love, self-acceptance, self-respect into a great relationship. Well, although I do feel that I'm in a really lovely relationship with you now, Mel. It's great. It is. It's so great and it's so emotionally fulfilling. Yes. And I feel that I'm showing up as myself.

Yes. But we want to talk about this idea of being ourselves in relationships. And so we can't do that alone, can we Mel? Sadly no. But we do have some very special guests for you today, dear listener. Very special and very secret guests. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data

and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. When you let Aero truffle bubbles melt, everything takes on a creamy, delicious, chocolatey glow. Like that pile of laundry. You didn't forget to fold it.

Nah, it's a new trend. Wrinkled cheek. Feel the Aero bubbles melt. It didn't forget to fold it. No, it's a new trend. Wrinkled chic. Feel the aero bubbles melt. It's mind-bubbling. So we are very excited to announce the most special of guests, the husbands. The husbands! Welcome!

Nice to be here. Absolutely. We have Justin, who is my husband. Hello. And Gareth, who is mine. What about you? This is the first time I've met Gareth. I'm thrilled by that. Absolutely.

And the first time you two are sitting on a sofa together, we've already discovered that you've plenty to bond over. You're not only married to us, two fabulous women, but you both had a protein shake for breakfast, we discovered on the sand check. We did, not the same one though. Wasn't she? That's later. Absolutely. Well, you're looking very cosy, never say never. Anyway, Mel and I have been talking

throughout this podcast really, but specifically on this episode about the most important relationship you can have, which is firstly with yourself, because you can only show up as yourself within a romantic relationship if you've taken the time to work on your self-worth and self-acceptance. And we would love to hear from you, Justin and Gareth, how you worked on your relationships with yourself before you met us. So Gareth, could I start with you? Absolutely. What age were you when you met the wonderful Mel? 38.

So what kind of work had you done on yourself? Well just a small bit of background. So I went to Australia with my now ex-wife. I was sponsored to go out there, did the whole thing. Went to work one Wednesday morning and there was a note in the kitchen table, an old Dear John letter. She'd gone home, couldn't settle in Australia, expected me to go back. I wasn't for going back. I had settled there and was enjoying my life. And, you know, in hindsight, the relationship had gone stale and whatever else now, you know. So you kind of expect then it would damage your confidence and whatever else, but it was kind of the contrary and all was kind of, okay, after a couple of days, this is probably the right thing to happen.

So interestingly, I stopped worrying about what other people thought, stopped worrying about, you know, I had no fear of rejection anymore because, you know, what's the worst that can happen kind of scenario, you know? So really after, it was a year of kind of regressing back into my twenties and twenties. No worries, Justin did the same thing. Yeah, just making him a mad jagger basically, you know? But the interesting thing is when you're in your thirties, you don't have those kind of hangups that you had before, you know,

you're more comfortable in your own skin. But really it was a case of, I wasn't really looking for a long-term relationship, I was looking to establish myself in a new country and a totally new environment. And it really kind of developed from there now, you know, I didn't feel the impending midlife crisis. So I was in a good place to start really. So would you say you were more intentional when it came to dating Mel or when it came to the point where you met her, that you had been more deliberate with your choices than you might have been when you were 29?

KM Not really to be honest. It was the accuracy. I was never really looking for a long term relationship, but there was no real substance to what I was doing, you know. So friend of mine, he was recently divorced, recommended online dating, which I thought was for losers, I'm going to be totally honest, like at the time. Mel approached me, which you know, she doesn't like to talk about, but anyway. So he says, it's perfectly incorrect. I should have screen shot her. But anyway, the mad thing was that it was like six weeks of chatting, which I'd never done before.

Because it was long distance, wasn't it? Yeah. The weirdest thing was, it definitely wasn't something I was looking for. I was looking for a woman with a bit more substance, if I'm totally honest. But um, No, he doesn't mean then me. No, no, no. Oh my God. He means then the women who are sitting here.

That's direct. But you couldn't find one of them. That's exactly it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly right. But yeah, it's just not something I'd ever experienced before. Now, you know, you kind of get really into the nitty gritty of things now, you know, the real depth of it. So we almost established a relationship before we met, which was the weirdest thing. That's so interesting.

And Justin, coming on, I feel like I should hand the questioning over to Mel here, but how much work had you done on yourself before meeting me? Because you, like Gareth, like me had gone through a divorce and you found yourself single in your early forties. Yeah, that's right. Yes. So, yeah, I had been in a relationship for 17 years, a long time. I hadn't really dated since my early 20s, when internet dating didn't exist. There were no apps and you met people. When I got divorced, it was a confluence of several things. My father died at the same time, or a similar time.

My business was really starting to scale. And actually, I went back into therapy to deal with a lot of that. And that gave me an opportunity to reflect and think about who I was and the way that I was wired and what I thought would make me happy going forward. And so I did quite a lot of work whilst also dating. So, you know, I would, I mean, it was just a mental time, but I would, I would do like therapy from seven till eight, leave the therapy and then go on a date. Oh, just like, therapy dating. Wow. Anyway, I wasn't in a particularly stable mindset given everything that was going on. And I was dating a lot and I felt that that was an important thing. You know, having not really dated for ever really, I wanted

to take that opportunity to basically acquire data. Will you tell us quickly about the funnel theory of dating, the Justin Bussini funnel theory? The trademark? Well, not yet. Well, I think it's just generally, and you talk about it a lot, around failing is about date or acquisition. And I think, you know, my advice to anybody and my advice to my kids is, is, you know,

go and have lots of relationships, go meet a lot of people, right? You have to, I think, give yourself the opportunity to work out what you really like and what is good for you and to get the information that you need to make a smart decision, especially about probably the most important decision of your life, which is who you're going to be with for the rest of your life. And I think certainly if you don't give yourself that opportunity, you end up sort of potentially defaulting into something, which actually over time maybe doesn't meet what you need. And had you given yourself a little bit more time to collect more information, and so that's the funnel, so lots of people in the top, and then

you sort of, you know, use all that data to find the diamond, find the person like you or Mel, that, you know, is going to really work for you. And that sets you up, I think, for the best opportunity to have a relationship that's going to be really meaningful. That's what we were talking about before, weren't we Mel? Where as long as you are clear about that with yourself and with whoever you're having these experiences with, then that can be a really good way of understanding who you are

and what you want and need. Absolutely. And the idea of going out there and having some lighthearted casual encounters is such a great way of acquiring some of that data as well. You know, as long as you're in a good place yourself and you're able to do that in a way that, you know, protects your own self-esteem and you know, you're communicating really clearly with the other person, this is what I want from this experience. And that all culminates in this picture of what I want, what my ideal partner is going to be, a la this guy. We have touched on the nature of our communication. How important, and it's a question for both of you, is it to you that our relationships

are interdependent rather than codependent? By which I mean that Mel and I can show up as ourselves, Gaz and Justin can show up as their selves, and we choose to be together, but we can also function incredibly well on parallel lines. Gaz, can I start with you? Yeah, absolutely. I think my sort of whole experience, like 95% of it was casual really now, you know, it was never really sought out a long term relationship and two or three casual relationships and whatever else now, you now. So I never really had that dependency in anybody now. I never really looked for that. But both of my wives, I don't want to dwell on the past, had that same sort of straightforwardness, that same courage, that same, they were both alpha females really now. They were completely independent in totally different ways.

completely independent and in totally different ways. You know, Mel had her own business, you know, which had gone out there on her own. She was utterly fearless as far as I could see now, you know, so that was the, that was a building block really of the whole relationship. And then, you know, I always saw myself as a man's man and go out and be the breadwinner and whatever else, but that isn't the case at the minute at all, you know, and that's like our relationship is, is based on, you know, we've had to really duck and dive and change. And, you know, we've been through so many sort of experiences in terms of Mel's career and, you know, I've gradually taken a step further and further back and become the, the main parent in terms of a Rik Maddy and so on. Now, you know, not, I shouldn't say main parent, but you know

what I'm trying to say. So our whole relationship has really been based on that kind of equality and you know, the fact that we can take a step back and, and be ourselves at all times. We don't need to be in each other's face all the time now, you know. That fluidity sounds so enlightened. And I was reflecting on it the other day and essentially for our whole relationship, we've been apart for a quarter of that time because three months of every year I'm away filming. And so that's a quarter of our relationship. Since Maddie was born.

Since Maddie was born. So the last 10 years, yeah. And so I think that's really helped in many ways. It's tough, don't get me wrong, It's really tough, particularly now that Maddie's getting older, it's tough being away. But it does ensure that we do have our independence as well as the interdependence when we come back together. Yeah, you know, to have that time, you know,

like that 95% of men wouldn't have, fathers wouldn't have, you know, it's just incredible. And just molding this little person, you know, who's just, you just, it's probably my proudest achievement, I've got to be totally honest. Kat, Justin, what are your reflections on that interdependency versus codependency? Because codependency was definitely something that I struggled with in my past experiences and one of the things that you were so good at? I think the key thing for me is that I think it is not good for a relationship when you

just assume that it is going to continue. And so every day I think to myself, you know, that thing that we've talked about, Elizabeth, which is, you know, we're walking together and you know, that is a decision that we make every day. And I see it in our relationship, you know, when we haven't been together, for example, we are slightly misattuned with each other and we need to work to bring that back together. You know, I'm sure when you're away, you know, you then need to work to like bring, bring yourselves back on that path together. And I think that is actually quite a healthy thing to just remember that you've got to work at it every day, walking your own path, but holding hands.

Oh, so good. So good. And actually you're so right. The daily work, the daily recommitment is the romance. And you were also incredibly helpful from a very early stage with me, Justin, saying things like, I'm really good at accepting feedback, which might sound like I'm in a business meeting, but actually for someone who was so worried about saying what she felt or what she wanted and that that would drive someone away or trigger someone's anger. It was such a relief to hear that. And actually, when we do have those moments of feeling slightly distant, I will often say I'm feeling a little disconnected from you. And you accept that. And we understand, I think, that when one of us says something like that, it's because we have our love and the relationship

at the centre of our minds. So tell me about you two Mel, how do you cope with those moments of disconnection? Well, there's always a transition period, isn't there? When I come back from being away, we're in it right now. And we think we're doing well this time, don't we? Yeah, I think so. It's, it's, um, look, obviously the what's happened in the past year is really it sort of informed that, you know, it's just been the whole dynamic has changed in that respect, I think for you as well, you know, talking about the cancer and the chemotherapy and all that kind of thing. It's just, it really, you know, it puts things in a massive

perspective, you know? Um, and just, you know, even if I didn't hear from her in a particular day, I was thinking, we should get sick again. It's just really odd things now. I think we'll probably come on to it, but the whole nature of love changes so radically when something like that happens now. Love for me has been going into a quiet room and crying because I'm just so worried about her health all the time and then having to be happy with my daughter all the time now, you know, just having that kind of dichotomy in your life. And it's just, you know, feeling almost like this is too much for you now, you know, just having that constantly sort of wearing away at you. And you know, but yeah, so it's made it, I think we've made much more of an effort this time,

you know, because, you know, it's the whole, you're talking about the kind of interdependency and whatever else, you know, when Mel came back, I think things were going in a certain way in the past now, you know, and then it's like, there's a bit of a clash because we're independent people and, And I'd come in and try and take over. Well, absolutely, you know, and then there would be, you know, with, with Maddie then, you know, Mel obviously has the mama guilt and then I don't want to let go of that and whatever it, whereas this time, I think we've all been more mindful of it because my daughter's now 10 and just incredibly perceptive little person.

It's okay to call her our daughter. What? She's not just yours. I wasn't deliberate at all. I could just get into your language kind of stuff. But yeah, she's been mindful of it. Even the dog has been much better with you this time. He has been. He's still making eye contact with me. Yeah, well, he makes us involved in family cuddles over weekends.

We call the family cuddle no matter where we are in the house and then everybody comes around, the dog jumps up and we all have a big cuddle. We're quite a tactile family. Yes. We're huggers. Yeah. I found that so moving when Gals just said, love for me, has been sitting in a room crying and then being happy for our daughter. I can't even imagine

what that's like for you to hear as well. That's just so beautiful. No question. Wanted to say that. So we've got some more fun, more quick fire questions. Seamless link. What was the thing that you think most scared you when we started getting serious? Was there anything that scared you, Justin? Well, the thing that was and has been the most challenging in our relationship is our fertility journey. That has been frightening at times, mostly for mean, mostly for you, but you know,

as a sort of part of that, it's been, you know, we've been, I've been through experiences with you that I have never been through with anybody else. And going through that has, it's very, very challenging and emotional and difficult to go through. I think one of the things that might have been most frightening was the idea that I would perpetually be unhappy because I was engaged, we were engaged in this sort of fertility struggle and I imagined that at points it felt like there was no end in sight and that this could either way make me somehow unbalanced or feel like our relationship wasn't enough for, does that? Yeah, I think so.

But it's more the fact you don't, I, you know, I don't want to watch somebody who I love in pain all the time. And that process was incredibly painful emotionally, physically, requiring huge resilience. And so there's a certain amount of trepidation that that is going to be a permanent sort of situation rather than something that will resolve one way or the other. And how do you feel about it now? Just for anyone who's listening, who's going through that and has the same fear? Well, I think if for somebody going through it, I mean, it is, you know, the way I think about it is it was an honor and a privilege to go through that with you. You know, I definitely see it as

like, I'm glad that I went through that with you in a way, even though it was incredibly painful. I think you making the decisions that you've made, I deeply respect that because you had to lean into some very, very, very difficult things. And you've resolved that for the time being. And these things are never necessarily permanent, but for the time being, and you are in a much happier place than I've seen. Then you're just getting better and better and happier and happier, I think, having gone through that, come through the other side, done the work and made the decisions that you've made. Thank you. I like to think we've made the decisions.

Yeah, we have. But yes, of course we have made the decisions. But it's fallen on your shoulders to actually have to do the work because it's you, I mean, it's obviously both of us, but it's you having to give up that dream and move on from that. And that's been an amazing, I mean, I deeply respect you for having, you know, made those decisions and being able to get to the other side of that because it's very, very hard. Thank you so much. There's no one else I would have wanted to go through that with. I didn't think you were going to say that. I thought you were going to say that you were scared about moving in together in case I was angry that you'd leave teaspoons on the counter, which has never, never actually happened. That was the second thing.

That was the second one. Okay. Gaz. Okay. I've got to add just a little bit of levity because it kind of ties in with what you're talking about. So two months after we'd met and Mel invited me to a corporate day at the races at Commonwealth Bank or something like that. And you know, you know what the races are like, you know, particularly in Australia, everybody gets leathered. So we're walking out of the races, Mel bursts into tears and says, what if I can't have any children? What if I'm not going to be enough? We'd never fucking mention children by the way. Never mention moving in. It's like probably her third or fourth date. You know, I'm like, Jesus. She's right here. This woman's 38,

she's never been married. Okay. So she's obviously a complete psychopath. So that point I'm like, okay, I need to take a fucking step back. Yeah, swear away. Okay, I need to take a step back here, you know, but look, in terms of the fear, it was really just, I'd established myself in Australia, I was in Adelaide, I was really loving my life. Then it was just that other disruptor. And now, you know, it was like, I think I'm too old for to have any kids, you know, I was 38 at the time now, you know, and you know, you were 42 then when you had, when you had Maddie. But at the time I was like,

I might, I might, I'm okay where I am. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like I'm falling for her by the stage, but I'm like, maybe I'm okay where I am, you know? So there's, I think it's probably a natural fear that every bloke like that point when it's going to be your second huge relationship, you know, it's just diving in there and whether, you know, everything just seems so perfect here, despite the cries at the races, you know, but there's that, it was just that kind of overall fear, like I'm okay where I am, you know, I can cope my own, I'm an independent man kind of thing, you know. Yeah. Why would you introduce something, some new substance into your already well-balanced protein shake of life.

But what I really enjoy about that anecdote is that Mel Schilling, for so many of us, is this extraordinary, powerful woman, a relationship guru, the likes of which we've never known. She's a clinically qualified, completely brilliant on married at first sight, just wonderful, even more wonderful when you meet her and so enlightened. And yet even she, even though she can teach us how to date, at some points you just have to let yourself be yourself. Absolutely. And fall into a puddle of tears in a pub. Absolutely. She's a lightweight though, like two or three drinks and she's away. That's all it takes. I can't wait for us to go out and celebrate.

Okay. I could talk to both of you. I actually would like to. This is so therapeutic. So therapeutic. For several more hours. I wonder if we could start joining us to a reluctant close by asking about happiness. Because I think for many years I was under the mistaken delusion that it was my job to make my romantic partner happy and I now realize that it isn't. What do you two think about that? Is it your job, Justin, to make me happy?

No. Why not? You have, it's your own job. It's everybody's job to make themselves happy, comfortable, confident, self-esteem, all of that. And for a lot of people, including myself, you know, that, I mean, think for everybody, that is a journey, but that, that, you know, I think it's, it's, it's your own responsibility as an individual to do that and to get yourself into the right situation. And if you do have that right mindset, you will, I think, be much more effective

in a relationship. Now that's not to say that I also don't think that there's a responsibility to bring happy moments and lightness and fun and, you know, things that we enjoy together into the relationship. And I think we both do that. But fundamentally, it's your responsibility for yourself to be happy and it's my responsibility. And if we do that, we walk together. Such a good way of putting it, because the distinction between making someone happy and introducing happy things into our joint life. I remember there was one specific weekend a couple of years ago when Justin was super stressed at work, had lots going on. And I said, what is sparking joy in your life right now? And he said, I can't think of anything. I was

like, right, I need to take action. And I booked a karaoke booth just for the two of us on a Saturday afternoon. Oh my gosh. Double day. It's happening. And now we do that when we need to introduce that levity. We absolutely loved it. And it was like, it was completely transformative. And I think that's such a good distinction. Um, I'm going to come to you next Mel, and then I'll come to Gazz about this idea of happiness in a relationship. Whose responsibility? Firstly, I just want to say you should see us doing a rendition of Paradise by the Dashboard Light by Meatloaf. Oh, yes.

That is so niche. Very niche. Yeah. And we are pretty amazing as a duo. Oh my God. I just building it up. Back to happiness. I love the way you've described it, Justin.

I think that's really cool. And I noticed that you were making the hand gestures of your parallel lines again. I love that because that's what it needs to be. That's what interdependence is. And we see relationships all the time where it is one person desperately requiring the other person to make them happy, outsourcing their happiness really to the other partner. And it's just a recipe for disaster. I think what something we've grown into is getting happiness from each other's good moments or successes, don't we? Now I can see that that's gradually developed over time and I can see, for example, if I have an achievement, I can look to you and I can see absolute deep happiness in your eyes because you're living it

with me. And similarly, when either of us has had difficulty or grief, you know, we definitely know that the other person is experiencing it right there alongside each other. Yeah, I think, you know, people just think about television, you're on television, you've made it and whatever else. Now, you know, Mel gave up a really successful career. She'd spent years and years building this career up and it went against every instinct of mine to back her in on this. But it did because I could see who she was as a person, who she could potentially be. But most of all, I could see that this was her vocation in life. This is where she needed to be. That's not really so much saying,

okay, you know, it's my job to make her happy, but it's more, I could see what made her happy. I could see what ultimately was going to make her happy and I backed her in, in that respect now, you know. I think a lot of the time in a relationship, particularly, you know, 13 years we've been together, you got to get back to why you fell in love in the first instance now, you know, you know, what it was about that person, you know, because you get bogged down in the day to day life now, you know, like one thing we haven't been so good at recently is having a date night, you know, just getting a babysitter, going out on a Wednesday night, going to a show, just chatting, you know, as a result, then it makes the other person happy, you

know, because it's then you're connected again, you're remembering who you were, you know, rather than who you were becoming. I think that's such a good point to end on because we've come back to the idea of dating, but dating within a long term relationship in order that we can continue showing up for each other and showing up as ourselves and reconnecting as ourselves with each other on those parallel lines, but hand in hand. I have absolutely loved this chat. Thank you so much to both of you. Yeah. How does it mean for both of you? Have you enjoyed it?

I'm not comfortable in the tiny sofa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just dying for a protein shake. That's hilarious. Yeah. So you're low on the protein. Okay, one final very brief thought from each of you. For anyone listening to How to Date, who is stuck in the wilds of dating and they feel dispirited and drained and like it's not worth it and it's not going their way, what one piece of advice would each of you give

to that listener? It's a journey and you don't have to be on that journey all the time. It is tiring, there's no doubt about it. You're putting yourself out there, you're having to put your best clothes on and be entertaining and all of that sort of stuff and that does take it out of you. And so I think you need to, when you're tired or in a difficult, you know, you've run out of steam, take some time away, take some time for yourself. You retool, take six months off. Dates will still be there. Tinder's going to still be there. They're all going to be there, right? You get yourself

into the right mindset and then, then go again. Great advice. Yeah, look, I can only echo that. I think the only other thing I would say is, don't try and be who you think people want you to be in a day, because it's completely inauthentic and it's never going to lead to a long term relationship. You know, you've got to be yourself, not completely warts and all, because you know, there are certain aspects of your personality that are going to irritate your future partner. Sort the genital waters out first. Well, absolutely. Part Part the self love. But yeah, be honest. You just got to be yourself. I think like take your time. Have one day a week, have one day every couple of weeks,

you know, but be yourself at the core. You really. Mel, I just want to say from a personal perspective, what a joy it's been working with you and getting to know you and learning so much from you. Thank you so, so much for making How to Date your first ever podcast. I'm so privileged and thrilled. What are your reflections on the series? Well, firstly, thank you so much for having me and allowing me to be your partner in this because wow, talk about a privilege. You're someone I've admired for so long. So thank you so much. My God, I feel the same. Sorry, Gas, do you mind giving us a moment?

Thank you finally to our wonderful community of listeners. We have loved being in your company. Thank you for all of your comments, all of your messages. It is the last episode of our eight-week pod class, but we are going to come back with a very special bonus where we answer some of your questions. So we're not going just yet, but we hope that you have found enough to be encouraged by, enough to be educated by, and we hope that you enjoy falling in love with yourself first, and then hopefully the rest will follow. Thank you so, so much for listening to How To Date,

and it's a goodbye from me, Elizabeth Day. And from me, Mel Schilling. How To Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionize dating. We want to make it better for everyone. And what better way to do that than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good dating pledge. Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments, things like I will communicate clearly and with kindness, I will not ghost or breadcrumb, I will always ask consent, and you can go and sign up just by putting your email in, that's all we ask. You can

go and sign up at thepodclass.co.uk, that's the podclass, P-O-D-C-L-A-S-S, dot co dot U-K. Let's make dating better for everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Please do like, follow and share with everyone you know who might want to listen to. And who knows, one of them might even turn out to be your future romantic partner. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. That was good. Nice one, mate.

That was really good. That was absolutely incredible. Music Entertainment original podcast.