How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Jessel Taank - ‘Real Housewives? It’s like Game of Thrones’

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

Jessel Taank is the first South Asian housewife and the breakout star of her debut season of The Real Housewives of New York in 2023. In this episode we speak openly about the challenges of conceiving her twin sons through IVF and the misplaced shame she felt at not being able to have children naturally. Her failures include failing to overcome Indian beauty ideals, a failure to balance motherhood with personal ambition, and a failure to understand the mechanisms of reality TV (and yes…we get INTO it). Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to How to Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. Every week, we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. Join us for frank expert advice, brilliant guests and practical exercises that will leave you feeling empowered to make the changes you need to meet the person that is worthy of you. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.

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Before we get on to our guests, I wanted to remind you of my subscriber podcast, Failing With Friends, where my guest and I answer your questions and try to give some advice on your failures too. This week, I chat to the Real Housewife of New York, Jessel Tank. Do join in by following the link in the podcast show notes or look out for my monthly call outs on Instagram. Thank you so much for listening. As a child growing up in a close-knit Indian family in London, Jessel Tank was convinced Michael Jackson was her real father, and that her own parents had kidnapped her from him. Although, spoiler alert, this wasn't true,

Tank's belief that it might have been displays an early fascination with popular culture. After university in England, she became a fashion publicist and brand consultant, eventually setting up her own PR firm. Fast forward to the present day, and Tank has found her own fame, not through singing or dancing, but through her casting on the reboot of The Real Housewives of New York, one of the greatest reality TV shows of all time, in my opinion anyway. Tank was the first South Asian housewife and the breakout star of her debut season in 2023. She became instantly iconic for her dry humour, her fashion, her sandwich-obsessed husband Pavat, and for describing Tribeca as up-and-coming. But her storylines went deeper, too. Tank spoke openly about the challenges of conceiving her twin sons through IVF,

and the misplaced shame she felt at not being able to have children naturally. As Brits, Tank has said, we don't talk about anything, and as Asians we don't either. I'm definitely not someone that thrives in drama or uncomfortable situations. My go-to is just to ignore it or disappear. Jess or Tank, welcome to How to Fail. What an introduction. And I love that Michael Jackson made it in. We started with Michael Jackson. As you always should.

Always. And we ended with conflict avoidance, which is so fascinating given what you now do. Yeah. Isn't it though? How does that work? So someone who, by your own admission, you like to sort of disappear from conflict. How has reality TV been for you? Oh God, it's been the hardest thing I've ever had to do. I think that, you know, for, I mean, and you're British, so I know you relate to this.

We avoid conflict at any cost. As an Indian, British also, that's an added layer of conflict that we don't really want to tap into. You're forced to face it. You're thrown into the dragon's den, so to speak. I call it the Game of Thrones. There was no escape, and you just had to figure it out. We're meeting a couple of days after the part two of the reunion has aired. How are you feeling? Because for anyone who watched that season, it was a season that ended on a dark and troubling note. And I feel I just want to pay tribute to how you navigated that and what a good friend you were to Uber. But how are you feeling about it all now? Are you

still talking to everyone? Yes, I mean, I'm still talking to everyone. But obviously, there is this very clear tension that rocked the group. You know, Real Housewives is supposed to be light funny. It's like drunk women falling backwards in bushes, like you know, as a private historian almost. Like, it's not supposed to take the turn that it did. Um, I think at the beginning of the season, you know, uh, we're talking about pigeons and it's like, it did feel very much like on par for what Real Housewives should be. Um, and then it did, you know, turn, um, a corner and it, I felt very disappointed to be honest.

And I still feel like a little bit in limbo because it's, it's such a weird note to end honest. And I still feel like a little bit in limbo because it's such a weird note to end on. Although we did seem to find resolution at the reunion, I know that there are things that have happened that people will not be able to forget necessarily. size of New York. First of all, what are you doing with your time? Secondly, just to bring you up to date, the season ended with one of your cast members, Bryn Whitfield, revealing that she'd been sexually assaulted and raped by someone, which was so awful and every single one of the women stood up in support of her. And there was a conflagration because Bryn believed that she had said to Uber that that

had happened to her and Uber said that she hadn't. And so it was about everything that happened after that. But I thought you did a very good job of separating the two things because we believe women when they tell us. 100%. And at the same time, there are ways of being open and honest in friendship that we didn't necessarily see on screen. No, definitely.

And you know, I feel terrible for Bry Bren because she obviously went through so much. To have that be overshadowed by what it was, I can imagine for her it was very devastating. It must have taken a lot of courage for her to open up and be vulnerable in that moment. I just wish that it had played out differently. You obviously are originally British, so I'd love to talk to you a bit about your upbringing. You were raised in London. I was raised in London, just outside of London, a little town called Pinna in Middlesex.

I think I've spoken a little bit about this, but my parents came to England as a tumultuous time for them. They were sort of forced to move to England and to start their lives. And so the household that we, or that I grew up in, it was sort of filled with, you know, this almost like struggle to kind of, you know, make it in a way.

They had to start from scratch. And so my upbringing was a very happy one. I had a lot of close family, a lot of close cousins, a lot of close friends. But it was almost overshadowed by this kind of very sad, I would say, background. And can I ask why they were forced to move? Yeah. So they grew up in Kenya, in Africa. And due to political uprise, a lot of Indians were told to, you know... They were displaced?

Yes, displaced. It was something where, because they were taking over businesses, and I think that maybe the African government felt threatened. And so a lot of the Indian community had to leave and because they were part of the Indian community had to leave and because they were part of the British Commonwealth, they ended up in England. So that's so interesting how you've described it so well there, that sense that it was a very happy upbringing but there was this underlying sadness because your family presumably had to leave behind everything they knew and start again. So were you aware from a young age that you had

to work hard and strive to succeed because of that? Yeah, a little bit. When you see your parents having to work so hard, my grandparents lived in a council home. You sort of are exposed to, I wouldn't say we're working class, middle class, but very hardworking, ethic. My parents pushed education. They really wanted me to like succeed just because all of those pillars would then, you know, help me strive to become what I am or what I wanted to be. So they gave me the opportunities that I definitely have today. I'm so thankful for that. But I think a lot of the Indian community, I mean, we joke about it, it's very much a stereotype why we work so hard. I think it does come from our background and

our parents and what they had to do. Now, I'm familiar with your wonderful mother from on screen. She's made an appearance, quite a few appearances on Real Housewives of New York. How does she feel about this turn that your career has taken? You know, I think at first they didn't really get it. They were obviously excited that I was given the opportunity and it's such a rare, I mean, I think so many women would just kill to be in my shoes. So the fact that I was in that position was first of all, I was so lucky and they saw that. But I think they are nervous for me. It's something that you can't control the narrative,

you can't control how you're perceived. I think that made them very nervous because as Indians, we are very timid in a way and we don't really expose a lot of who we are. We're very private as a culture. So your first failure is that as a young girl, you fail to overcome Indian beauty ideals and you let the pressures of not living up to them almost undo you. So describe to me how you felt as a young girl. Did you feel pretty? No. So I think, you know, being Indian, I think that a lot of Asian cultures sort of had this ideal, to be fair. There was a very

specific stereotype of what beauty is in India and in Asia. And that is, you know, petite, fair-skinned, almost like porcelain-like. I think growing up, I definitely did not fit that mold, and I felt it from a very young age. It really did inform a lot of who I am and who I still am, because I think when you don't fit a mold in your culture, you don't fit a certain stereotype, you feel sort of displaced. I know that sounds really like a heavy term,

but I really did. I was obviously darker growing up. You see my mom, she doesn't look Indian at all. She almost looks Italian or something else. I almost felt like I was being compared in a way, like, oh, that can't be her daughter. She doesn't look like her. I heard that from a very young age. It was very tough, I think. I think my self-confidence took a dive. I was always questioning this

idea of beauty or what it means to be beautiful. In a way, it was almost why I wanted to be in the fashion industry. Yes, that makes total sense. Yeah. Also, now that you're talking about it, the Michael Jackson thing, that actually breaks my heart. Oh my God, I didn't even connect the two. Because that's someone who also struggled with his own skin, it feels like. It's really funny you mentioned that. Yeah. I mean, he did grow up dark. I mean, he, I don't know what happened to poor Michael. I mean, he claims a bit of ligo, but mean, he did grow up dark. I mean, he I don't know what happened to poor Michael.

I mean, he claims of it a ligo, but like, yeah, maybe I did connect with him because of that. But you did grow up in a time when racism, particularly in London, was still really prevalent. How did that play out for you? Yeah, racism was rampant. To be honest, I didn't really feel the weight of racism. My mom on the other hand and her family did. Like I said, they grew up in a council estate. I grew up with stories of my uncles telling me that they had to hide in their home. I think I heard one story where there was bottles of gasoline being thrown into their home.

They would light it and throw it into the letterbox. They had a very, very tough upbringing. I almost internalized what my mom went through, because you see she grew up in a very tough way. It was very, very sad for me to be a part of that. I think it informed who she is as well, and certainly informed her family upbringing and what they had to do. My dad, on the other hand,

had a little bit of a different upbringing. I'm sure he did experience racism, probably not in such a violent way, but he got to travel and his family grew up with a little bit more means. I think that he actually was able to have an education and actually sort of went through the motions of having friends and being able to experience his childhood a little bit better. I'm very intrigued by the idea of inherited trauma and that you carry some of your mother's

and even your uncle's sadness within you. So what was school like for you? School was not bad. It was, you know, I didn't feel segregated in school. I think, to be honest, I grew up in a area of London that was quite diverse. There was a lot of Indians, there was a lot of Asians. My best friend was Korean, and she was my very best friend. We did everything together. So I grew up in a very diverse community, which I'm so grateful for because it really put a lot of perspective, a lot of international perspective to how I treat people and how people hopefully treat me as well.

So with these childhood memories of not fitting in, quote unquote, to the Indian ideal, how has it been going on television and being confronted with your appearance? How do you feel about how you look now? I've worked really hard to come to terms with the angst of it all. Like I said as a child, I had so much lack of self-confidence. I was very shy. I wouldn't really talk to people. I couldn't really look people in the eye.

It's such a far departure from who I am now. But I really worked very hard to come to terms with being darker is beautiful. I think there is a lot of social chatter about that, which helped. I think one of my icons growing up was Naomi Campbell. I think that she was someone that came on to the scene as this gorgeous supermodel that was not a light-skinned model and that embraced it so much. Targeting people like that for me was really helpful because I'm like, oh, you can look like that and can be perceived as beautiful.

And I think that there's been a lot of work done in the Indian culture itself where, you know, we're not there yet, but there have been strides that have been taken to embrace women that are darker and that, you know, it's almost cool now, which, Jesus Christ, it took a while, but I feel almost accepted in a way. How that translates to the show, I really like talking about the fact that I didn't fit in,

that I almost feel unique because I think standing out is almost cooler than blending in. Well, objectively speaking and sitting opposite you, I can confirm that you are so beautiful. Oh, thank you. And you deserve to know that. But one of the things that I, as much as I love Housewives, I have a slight issue with is at the reunion when you are constantly asked what work you've had or not had done. And I felt like you were slightly singled out this last reunion about for that. And I just, how do you feel about that? Because I didn't know, I feel uncomfortable. The fact that Andy asked me, I wasn't offended because, and I know he issued a statement

about this, he does ask, I'm sure at every reunion, have you guys prepared? He loves a boob job. Loves a boob job, loves a nose job, loves a bit of filler and botox. For me, he's been so complimentary of, you know, me and how I dress and how I look. And so I didn't take offense to it. I think where it went south was when Bryn chimed in and was like, well, I know what she's done to her face. And I think I was confused because I thought she was alluding to the fact that maybe I did more, like I had a nose job or, you know, a facelift, which none of that is true. So there was a little bit of confusion on my part.

And then she went to say that she introduced me to someone who does injectables, and that I ran out on a bill, which also didn't happen. So I think the whole thing took a bit of a dive and then it got really awkward. And then I think it was like, okay, well, what did you do? And that was the stress of it got really awkward. And then I think it was like, okay, well, what did you do? Like, and that was kind of the stress of it all. Right. But, you know, I stand by the fact that I've only done Botox and Villa. My mum would kill me if I did anything more.

Yeah. She literally would. She spanked me. Welcome to How to Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. Every week, we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. Join us for frank expert advice, brilliant guests and practical exercises that will leave you feeling empowered to make the changes you need to meet the person that is worthy of you.

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going to talk about this, Jessel. I really am. And when I knew you were coming on the podcast and I asked if your failures, I was hoping that you'd bring something around motherhood up because you won't remember this, but I watched you the first season of Real Housewives. We didn't know each other, but you spoke openly, so profoundly and movingly about IVF. And I have also been through that unsuccessfully, but I felt so seen in what you were saying and you expressed yourself with such eloquence and sensitivity for those of us who understand it. And I DM'd you because I'm so grateful and you got back to me so it was very nice of you. That's why I'm really happy that we get a chance to talk about it in more depth. So tell me why you chose this baby.

It's a big part of I think who I am today. I still struggle with it. Growing up when people would ask me, and I'm sure a lot of women get asked this question, how many kids do you want? It's such a simple question. I would always laugh and say, oh, I don't want kids, I would love a dog. I think as women, you are expected to bear children,

and that is the role. As soon as you get married, it's like, what are you having kids? Or, you know, it's just something that is almost like forced upon us. The truth is I was never maternal or I never felt maternal. I was always very ambitious and I always,

when I think about my successes, it was always surrounding my career. When I did get married, I always felt like the next step in the process was to have kids. We did delay it as much as we could. I wanted to travel and really experience the world as much as I could. But there came a time where I knew my husband

would really want her kids. And so when we started trying and it wasn't happening, I was really, you know, I was like, wow, like maybe this isn't meant to be. But then it took a whole other turn for me because motherhood became really, really hard or trying to be, you know, a mother became really stressful. And it just kind of took a dive from there, I think. I almost became really frustrated. I became almost a shell of myself because I was then putting all this energy into trying to have kids. And I put almost my career on the back burner. And I think I was mentally checking out because I was like, okay, here we are.

We're like in the thick of it. It took me three years to have kids. And I was like, those three years, I could have really focused on other things, you know? Yeah. I think when you go through IVF, I mean, I was very ignorant and naive when I first started doing IVF, and I did not realise that it's essentially like taking on a whole other job. Yeah.

And if you already have a job, and not only if you have a job, but if you are someone as you are, who is used to applying yourself and getting the results, it's very difficult then to be pitched into this world of uncertainty and ambiguity where you are doing all of the work and sometimes the results just aren't fair. They're not happening for you. Did you feel like you were failing? Yes. So did I.

100%. It's actually a large part of the reason why I launched this podcast. Yeah. And I think, and I don't know if you relate to this, but part of the reason I felt I was failing was the social conditioning that you're talking about, the idea that it's our biological imperative as women. But also I felt failed by my own body. And I felt that the medical language around fertility for women is often the language of failure. The phrases that often male clinicians use are the phrases of failure. So you have an incompetent cervix or an inhospitable womb or you're failing to respond to medication and that just really worms its way inside your psyche. And I don't know if you have

that experience too. I think it is very much a social taboo or a cultural taboo even to not be able to have kids at the blink of an eye. It sucked the fun out of it for me. Then at that point, being a mother wasn't going to be fun because I already went through so much. And again, you are put in this little bucket of like, oh, well, here you go. It's something that you're going to have to deal with. It's going to be such a struggle for you to get pregnant. And it's a big reason why I wasn't so open and honest about what I was going through, because I didn't want people to look at me in that way as a failure and gossip and talk about how I wasn't able to have kids.

Because you didn't tell your family, it was really just you and Pavit going through it, just the two of you. Yeah, and a few friends who I chose to tell. Can you take us back to what impact that had on your relationship at the time that you were going through it and you weren't sure whether you could get pregnant? Yeah, I think I blamed him a lot. It wasn't his fault, but because he was the only person that was in this with me, I took a lot of frustration out on him. I think that he handled it like a pro, like he handles most things. But he was really my punching bag through the entire process.

Financially, it took a toll on us. I mean, what were we like 100 grand, maybe 150 grand in at this point, with no feasible light at the end of the tunnel? That's a down payment on a house. You know, it was a very, very tough time for us in our relationship. I just remember one night I got the results of my third egg retrieval and it was the same, you know, song and dance, like nothing was viable. And I just remember like thinking, am I even supposed to be where I am right now? Is this a sign where I should be doing something completely different?

Should I even be married? Should I just end this right now and just be a successful entrepreneur and do it on my own? Those were the thoughts that were going through my head. Because you just don't, if something's not working and it's hard and you're like toughing roughing it out you're like is this a sign that this is not my destiny yes I totally relate to that yeah and do you mind asking how many rounds you had to do yeah I did five in the end you're so strong how how many did you do I did did two. So I did, this is a whole other podcast, but I was married before and I did two rounds in that marriage and those two rounds were unsuccessful but also highlighted that I wanted

it more than he did. And then I got pregnant naturally and had a miscarriage of three months and that was devastating and ultimately the end of our marriage for various other reasons. It was kind of the catalyst. And then I was 36 being like, oh, well, now what do I do? Do I concentrate on trying to find a fulfilling relationship or do I try and get pregnant? And so I froze my eggs, very disappointing results. All of that failed to respond to the drugs. And then I met my now husband on a dating app and we got pregnant naturally just after my 41st birthday, had another miscarriage, but then that showed us how much we wanted it. And so then I did various procedures and we ended up having

another miscarriage and then I did egg donation and then that didn't work either. Oh my God. So it was a lot, it was attritional and it was over a 12 year process. Oh my goodness. And I can talk about it now without crying because I am truly at peace with the fact that I won't have a biological child in this lifetime. And it got to the stage for me where I did feel like, why am I pushing against this unforgiving obstacle so much when actually I'm so grateful for the relationship I have and I'm surrounded by children in other ways and I'm lucky that

I have a fulfilling career. And so for me, I decided to let it go. And that was two years ago. And that takes immense amount of strength. I mean, kudos to you because I think that to come to terms with something like that is so gut wrenching. Yeah. I mean. It was hard. Yeah.

I had an amazing psychic reading that really helped. I'll tell you about that later. Okay. Those psychics, they know what to do and what to say at the right time. The good ones are great. The good ones are great. Wow. So you did five rounds. Yeah. And then you got pregnant on your fifth or on the sixth?

So I did five rounds and then I never had a transfer before because we didn't have the viable embryos. So round five, I think I had the viable embryos at that point. I did a transfer and I begged my doctor to put two in because it wasn't because I wanted twins and the cute twin thing. I was just like, if this doesn't work, I need a backup. I need insurance in there. So I signed a waiver. He was like, this is not great. We don't recommend you do two at one time. But I signed a waiver and of course, those two little suckers stuck. And I was

like, oh crap. Well, here we go. We're having two at one time. But the feeling of, you know, after like this whole debacle, the feeling of getting pregnant at that time was just like, wow. Like I was just so grateful. I was so excited to tell everyone. And then I had them and I was like, oh crap, like they're there to stay.

Like now I have to really, it sounds like, I mean, don't call me out on this. But it's like the excitement, it's almost like, you know when you would get engaged and then you're so excited for the wedding and then the wedding happens and then you're like, okay, what now? Yes. That's how I was like- What's the next thing to focus on? What's the next thing? So I was pregnant pregnant, I was excited, we told everyone and like, there was all of this

hype. And then I had the kids and I was just like, oh crap, like it was almost like this moment where I was like, well, this is it, I have kids now. Well, I also imagine that when you go through lots of fertility treatment, and then you end up having the baby. Is there a part of you that feels like, I am not allowed to complain because I wanted this so much and I put us through so much? And I think sometimes women struggle with that because obviously you are allowed to say it's really tough. But there's probably part of you that feels like you're letting yourself down by admitting that. Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because pavets, they are really expensive kids. You better

appreciate them in every which way. And I do, of course. But again, going back to, are you maternal? I don't think I am still, which is such a weird thing to say, but I just am not. I love hearing you say that. That's going to help so many women. I hope so. Honestly, and I think it's probably a far more common feeling than people imagine. Because what you're saying is, I don't think I'm maternal. It's not saying that you don't love your kids. No. Or that you're not an amazing mother, which you are.

Yeah. So, what do you mean when you say you're not maternal? In that, I have my kids and I'm so grateful and they're amazing. But I don't want my life to revolve around the fact that I am a mother. I think it's one element of my life and I hope that I'm doing a good job and I wake up every day and I hope that I'm raising them in the best way I can. But I have so many other ambitions that take priority, not priority, but like take, you know, are the same level of priority, I would say. And coming to terms

with that was really tough because I think, again, because you're a mom, you're supposed to feel like that's kind of like the thing that you focus on. Paveit being the person he is, has really almost taken that role of being the mother and the father while I'm doing this, while I'm pursuing what I'm doing. I'm so grateful for him because he wakes up in the morning, he gets some breakfast, he'll take them to school, I'll do work, stuff. He really is taking on this incredible role of the main parent in a way. Do you feel guilt?

No. I don't. That's so great. I don't because I think I give them enough, but I also don't want to shrivel up and die and not pursue what I set out to pursue. Yeah. You said this amazing thing. I just want to find the quote because it's so funny and apt. It was about how having twins, okay, the way I like to describe it, you said, is you buy tickets

to a rave and you want to go to the rave, but then when you're at the rave, you just can't leave. You're constantly dancing to the music and it's very intense. How good is that quote? So good. By the way, I love a good rave. Yeah. Well, how old are the twins now? Three and a half. And how is it? How are you doing? So hard. Oh, it's so hard.

Like now they're like mimicking, they're like mocking me. Like they repeat what I say in my like accent and I'm just like, oh my God, they're like little monsters. I don't have family in New York and so I can't, you know, I think a lot of people are able to give their kids to their parents for a weekend or to, you know, we don't have that structure here. So it's double as hard. Yeah, I can sense that.

Yeah. You're doing a great job. You and Pavit are both doing a great job. Thank you. Now, for anyone who hasn't seen your first series, The Real Housewives of New York, you opened up again in a very courageous way about the knock-on effect that fertility treatment had on how you felt about your body and your intimacy with Pavit. Would you mind just speaking a bit about that for anyone who hasn't seen that? Because I think it's so powerful.

Yeah. No, thank you for asking that. IVF is so isolating. I think that a lot of women who haven't been through it can't really understand what it means to go through months of drugs and hormones. It just very much sucked my identity in a way. As I was going through it, you feel bloated and you just don't feel like yourself. Imagine going through your period every month, for instance, and it's just like this constant, you just feel gross, right? That's how I felt for three years almost.

For me, trying to get pregnant, it took a different path because I was almost putting all this pressure on him and it became work. When you're trying to get pregnant, it's like you have a schedule and I was like, let's go. I don't think he enjoyed it either. I think the intimacy really took a deep dive during those years of trying to get pregnant. And then when I have the kids, I also, you know, I had a caesarean, I just needed to focus on me and not my marriage in a way.

I know that sounds selfish. No, it doesn't. It sounds wise actually. Like you had to do that, you have to put your own oxygen mask on before you can help the others. A little bit. I really wanted to snap back and do all the things, but it just took a long time for me. I did have PTSD to be honest, because I think I equated having sex to the emotions of trying to get pregnant. And it did take a bit of a toll on our relationship. He was, again, Pave is like, can do no wrong. He's like so patient and really didn't pressure

any of it. But you know, I knew that it was something I needed to step back into. Yeah. It's so interesting you say that. I, at the end of these 12 years of fertility treatment, it was only once I was out of it that I understood the impact it had on my body and how I felt about it. And I have recently got into weight training and it's been transformational for me for that reason, because I feel I'm back in my body and I feel really strong and good about it. And that was denied me and I'm sure you for all of those years that you were going through it. Because you can't control how you look and you're not even focused on that. Do you know

what I mean? You can't focus on feeling good because you're just pumping yourself with just, it's always like desperation, right? Like I felt desperate and I felt like I had to combat this thing. And you put everything sort of aside, like I said, my career, how I looked, how I felt about myself, my relationship, all those things took sort of a backseat. I'm so glad you're on the other side of it, although I know that there is a third embryo on ice, a girl that you are very keen to have and that Pavit is more cautious about. Yeah, financially, I think it's like traumatizing for him.

I would love to have a third child, but you know, I want to make sure that he's on the same page. Yeah. And I think a lot of this season that you just saw was us trying to sort of like come to terms with what that looks like. And to be honest, I don't think he wants another kid. Like, I think for him, I'm going to say this, like, I think a lot of the focus was on me and my trauma.

I didn't talk about Paveh and what he went through. And I think a lot of people sort of dismissed the husband in these scenarios. He went through a lot. Yeah. I mean, he was dealing with my like nonsense. Um, he was paying for all the treatments and, you know, I know that that was like hurting him and I'm sure it was really tough on him, but I never asked, you know, we never talked about it because I was so selfish in that moment. I was like, I can't get pregnant, you know, and I'm sure that it was very hard for him.

I love how you go to bat for Pavit and like how you do for each other, actually, I think you've got a really beautiful relationship. And I know it's come under some scrutiny, but I just see two people who really love each other and who are interdependent rather than codependent. Oh, which I love. Yeah, thank you for saying that because it's like, I feel like I'm constantly having to justify our relationship and I'm really done with it. I'm not stepping up and going to justify anything that I don't feel like I need to anymore.

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mechanisms of reality TV. Yeah, it's a big one. So you said that you went into it naive and you didn't really have self-confidence. Yeah, I really didn't. I didn't know what this was that I signed up. I really didn't. How did you get to be on it then? What happened? So they built the show around a group of women. So being in the fashion industry, I was kind of, I was introduced to one of my friends. And when I was being cast, there was something very much inside me that was like, oh, this is fun. It will be a fun dinner time story. How I auditioned for the Real Housewives of New York. I never thought I would get it. But in hindsight, it goes back to my self-confidence

because I didn't think I was good enough for it. I didn't think that like, why would they want me? Why would they want, you know, why would they like choose me? And the answer to that question is, I'm funny. I am fashionable and I'm really like a big personality. I just didn't believe in myself. So when you say the mechanisms of reality TV and you're failing to understand them,

what are the mechanisms? No detail is too niche for me. Yeah, I know. I know you're like chopping at the bit right now. What are the mechanisms? When you look at reality TV and let's take the Kardashians, for instance, it is this whole production following your life. And you just see the Kardashians on your screen and the glam and the- What goes into a show is so much more than that. And it's the different dynamics of your castmates and what your character is. Because there are characters on a reality TV show, even though you're not privy to it. I think everyone plays a role, right?

I didn't know that that was the case. I thought that I was going to be your token Indian girl. I'm sweet and funny. I'm in fashion, and everyone loves me because I've never really had conflict like the way I've had on the show in my life. I think in real life, if you have conflict with someone, you're able to talk it through and it's not aired on national television.

You don't have all these people commenting on your moves per se. But I was just so naive about the whole thing. So when you have conflict on the show, like just plucking one from the ether, you were 20 minutes late for Psy when you were meeting for breakfast or lunch. She killed me for that, yeah. What happens? Because as you say, in real life, you might air it then and there, or you wouldn't mention it, and you just like go about your business. But do production get involved? And do they retain some information, but feed you some other information, and then encourage you to talk about it on screen?

So here's the biggest mistake I made. I treated it like a show. In reality, you don't treat it like that. You treat it as if, if I was, in real life, if I was going to be 20 minutes late, I would text my friend and say, babe, I'm so sorry, I'm running 20 minutes late. Go ahead and order.

You know, I'll be there as soon as I can. I didn't text her. I texted production. That's so interesting. I'm 20 minutes late. And I don't know if that was communicated to her. Do you know what I mean? So that was the biggest mistake I made. Yes. mistake I made. And across the board, like I should address things in real time with the person and not the production of it all. And it was like an aha moment for me. And so then what happens? So you filmed a season and then I'm imagining that you're watching it for the first time and you're seeing other women in scenes that you weren't part of potentially

saying mean things about you. Or in confessionals saying mean things about you or things that are willful misunderstandings. How does that feel? It's so tough. Like imagine it doesn't happen in real life. Like if someone's talking you know shit about you behind your back, the likelihood of you ever finding out is quite, it's like low. But then to have to watch that on TV, but not only you're watching it, like everyone's watching it,

it is really, you have to have thick skin. I was just like gobsmacked the first season. I was just like, wow, this is crazy. Then you've got the whole social mechanism of it all. You've got the reality show and then you've got the social of it all, and that's a whole other layer. Because I think with reality TV, people feel so comfortable commenting about you.

It's not like you're playing a role on a movie. You are you, so they feel like they can go to your Instagram and comment on everything about you. It was so crazy. I could not cope. I just want to salute you for being able to. Barely surviving. Do you think it's made you stronger?

Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. You have to really train your mind and your brain emotionally and mentally to kind of go to a place where you keep telling yourself these people don't know you. They really don't. They know what- What do you mean by social media people or your castmates? The social media people.

Social media people. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. In order to imagine going to someone's Instagram, finding them, going to someone's Instagram and saying mean stuff on their page, knowing that they're going to see that, and you don't know that person. It just takes a certain character to do that. I have to keep telling myself they don't know you. So what they're seeing and how they're translating that and how that's coming out is not real. So you sort of create this almost fictional bubble that you put yourself in. I had a conversation with name drop Jay Chetty once.

Oh yeah. with name drop Jay Shetty once. And he had such great advice for dealing with social media criticism. He said, it's like someone coming to your street and standing outside your house who doesn't know you, just shouting insults through the window. And you've got to decide whether that person is welcome in your house. And ultimately, they're not because it's your house. You keep your house how you want to keep your house. And ultimately, they're not because it's your house. Like you keep your house how you want to keep your house. And that is your Instagram page or your Twitter account, X account or your TikTok account. And I found that very helpful to put it in that context.

It's a great analogy. It really is. It really takes a person to have thick skin to be able to tolerate. Yeah, I've been called a terrible mother. I've been called an absolutely hideous wife, an awful daughter. I was told that I'm representing the Indian community and why the hell would they choose this girl to be that face? It's just like, it makes you question everything you are to your core. Do you have strategies now to cope with that? Yeah, because you've got to protect the peace. Definitely. What do you think filming The Real Housewives has taught you about friendship?

Oh, that's such a loaded question. I know. It's really interesting because I think that almost my friendships throughout my life, that almost my friendships throughout my life, I've really worked hard to nurture them. My friends are like my family and I've really taken it upon myself to make sure that they know that. And I work really hard at being a good friend. I think the friendships on the show,

it's so different because there's almost like an agenda behind those friendships, a strategy maybe. It takes like what I know as friendship and sort of like adds a whole other meaning to it. By the way, I didn't go into this with a strategy. Like I think to be very clear, I really took it upon myself to want to get to know every single one of these women in the most innocent and positive way possible.

I just don't know that that was the case for others. Yes. There's a transactional element. Very much. Yeah. So would you consider any of them real friends? Yes, I do. And I think that- any of them real friends? Yes, I do. All of them?

No. Who would you consider a real friend? Not all of them. I do think that you see who you connect with. I have to say Jenna is someone that on the show, off screen, she is who she really is. It doesn't feel transactional with her. I feel like, you know, we can joke about things and I can tell her things and she won't get offended or if she is offended, she would tell me and we'll actually have an adult conversation about it. You know, there is, there are so many layers, but on the flip side, I also feel so close to these women because we're

going through something that you really don't understand unless you're in it. I had dinner with Sai last night and she feels like a sister to me and that's so weird to say because we had a very rocky tumultuous start, but she's someone that I feel so close to because we've been through something in such a short amount of time together. Are you still friends with Uber? I am. Oh, thank God.

Oh my God, of course. He didn't mention her. Oh, no, no. I mean, I was getting to her about seeing her tomorrow. Again, she's someone that from the get-go, I felt like culturally we really connected because obviously she comes from Africa, she's Muslim, she really understands almost the cultural restraint that I bring with me. She's someone that's very wise and that really has a very pure, beautiful soul.

Your friendship with Uber was one of my favorite things of the season because it felt so real and so much of its strength seemed to happen off camera, which meant that I as a viewer could really trust it. Yeah. I really hope so. I go back to that night a lot and I always tell her, I was like, I don't know if they showed it, but I was hovering in a way outside her door. She hadn't eaten. I went to see if she wanted to eat, but I just don't think I could have slept that night without telling her what I knew.

And something deep within me knew that she didn't know. I think that she knew that what Brynn was saying, accusing her of, that wasn't the case. And I followed my gut in that moment and I am so glad I did. Yeah. This has been such a joy, Jessel. Oh, you as well. Honestly. I know in the first two or three seconds of meeting someone, if I'm going to like them, I know that sounds really like judgy. No, it sounds instinctive.

It's very like I go off of vibes and energy and it gives Burning Man, I know, but like I am a vibe person. And I just met you and I was just like, she's my girl. Oh, thank you so much for trusting me. And thank you for always showing up as your authentic real self because I love it. And we love it. So never change. Thank you. And honestly, it's an honor to be sitting here opposite you. That means so much to me. Thank you. And you're not going yet because you're staying for Failing with Friends where you get to answer listener questions. So now the pressure's off you, Jessel. Okay. Hot seat. We heartily recommend you follow us to get new episodes

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