How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - John Bishop - ‘I’ve always wanted someone to say: you’re good enough’

Episode Date: May 14, 2025

John Bishop has been a hugely successful stand-up comedian for 25 years. Yet that wasn’t his first dream, which was to play football. We discuss his failure to do so professionally, his challenges at school, the working-class upbringing that shaped him and how comedy saved his marriage when he and his wife were at the ‘decree nisi stage’ of divorce. Plus: skincare tips and why making people laugh is like stripping. Yes, really. Tickets for John Bishop’s 25 Years of Stand Up tour: https://www.johnbishoponline.com/ ‘Those four letters - love - are loaded with so much’ - Elizabeth and John answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com 🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code [howtofail] at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to https://saily.com/howtofail ⛵ Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello lovely How to Fail listeners and viewers. This is just to let you know that if you want a peek behind the curtain to find out the last time that Kate Winslet spoke to Leo, or how much sex Vogue Williams considers to be normal, then you can listen to my subscriber series. Just follow the link in the show notes and we will How To Fail. This is the podcast where every week I speak to a new guest about three times they failed in their life and what, if anything, they've learnt along the way. You're like the man I met. She said, what happened to you? I said, I married you. But at the time, I'd have done anything not to have gone through. My kids are the kids I used to throw stones at.

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to use, you only have to install it once, and it's much more affordable than roaming. You can also activate Salie's security features and browse more confidently. Download the Salie app in your app store. Use code HOWTOFAIL at checkout to get 15% off your first purchase. My guest today is a hugely successful stand-up comedian. A man who has spent a quarter of a century in comedy, playing to sell out crowds across the world, as well as fronting a number of entertainment TV shows, writing best-selling books, and raising millions for charity. Not for nothing,

then, has John Bishop been hailed by the Daily Mirror as Britain's top comic. But it could all have been very different. As a child growing up on a council estate in Runcorn, Bishop had dreams of becoming a professional footballer. Instead, he found himself working as a sales rep for a pharmaceutical company, earning a decent living with a pension plan, private health insurance, and gold cards for two airlines.

But a nagging dissatisfaction led to marital separation and then a career pivot. One night, Bishop wandered into the Frog and Bucket Comedy Club in Manchester and took to the microphone, cracking the only joke he could think of about French farmers. That moment changed his life forever. Within three years, he was a household name and was back with his wife, Melanie, the mother of his three sons.

Now, 25 years on, Bishop is taking his 10th stand-up tour across the UK and Ireland. And to mark this special anniversary, every ticket at every show will be just £25. You're only ever four words away from joy or the fear that nobody will laugh, Bishop says. You're always only four words away from success or failure. That's a brilliant tightrope to walk. John Bishop, welcome to How to Fail. Well, thank you. Thanks for the introduction. Thank you for being here. Tell me about those four words.

I said that in relation to the joy of stand-up, because the thing with stand-up is that it's all about the reveal. You know, you set the joke up and then you're four words away, and then the punchline is said. And in English, the punchline is invariably the last word that's said. And so the last word of that sentence is you stop and people laugh. And I was speaking to someone about it the other day and I said, the difficulty is if they don't laugh,

you can't go back and do it again. I said, it's like being a stripper. You go boom, you get your boobs out and if nobody's impressed you, don't go, oh, that was an accident and then put them back in and get them out again. And the joke is the last word. And so you're only ever, as you're saying it as a comedian,

you're only ever building up to that last word. And then if you don't laugh, you've got to pick them up again. And if you do laugh, you ride on it. So you're only ever four words away from judgment, I think. Do you enjoy that adrenaline? I enjoy the tight rope of it. I enjoy the immediacy of it. And I've always said like standup comedy

is the most immediate form of communications. The most instant form of communication. No one goes home and thinks about laughing. They laugh or they don't laugh. Laugh is an instinctive reaction to what's going on. And if they don't laugh, you have to carry on. You can't just go, sorry, that was my joke. I've got to go off now. You've got to carry on and you can't. Like in music, if you go to a music gig, you can ride through, the energy can pull people through, but with stand up, it is bricks and a wall.

And one of those bricks just may not fit. And if it doesn't, the wall might fall down. So your old act can fall to pieces. Do you remember that joke about French farmers? Oh, 100% I do, because it was the only joke I had. And in fact, I'd been on the phone to my mate Jimmy before I went into the club. And this is 25 years ago, so not everyone will remember this. But there was a, a protest going on with French farmers about petrol prices and

something to do with petrol prices or gas or something, but I think it was all petrol prices and what they were doing to protest is that they were blocking the borders with tractors, getting bales of hay and setting them on fire. And so English lorry drivers couldn't get back. And so on the news that night, there was all these lorry drivers going, I can't get home. I can't get home. And obviously they had perishables on the trucks, but also they couldn't get back home. And that was the news that the French farmers were blocking the borders. So the joke that I said is if you've seen them French farmers blocking the borders, wouldn't it have been handy if they'd have done that in 1939? That was their gag.

And then that was it. That was the end of the gags. You're going back to the frog and bucket where it all started as part of this tour. Yeah. Yeah. I read somewhere that you sometimes feel as if you've nicked someone else's life. Oh yeah. Listen, I was a month off being 34. I had a very good job. I was a sales and marketing director for a pharmaceutical company that specialized in immunosuppressants.

So we worked in the field of transplantation. So people who had organ transplants, our drug prevented rejection for them. So it was a very specialized area, very interesting, and it was a good life in many respects in terms of what aspirations I had in life. And I never had aspirations to be in show business. Or did I? Maybe I did, but they were so far suppressed, because it just wasn't a world that was open to you. And so it does always feel sometimes, you know, I'd be standing on a stage and I think there's a comedian somewhere doing a sales presentation, putting a graph up thinking, how did this happen?

Cause it feels, it doesn't now cause it's 25 years since that night. Uh, but it feels, always feels that there's a process and I'm sure you've been through it yourself of imposter syndrome where you think, was this really meant for me? Were you a good sales rep? I was great. What's the secret to selling? It's the same secret to being an interviewer, it's the same secret to being a comedian, I think. You've just got to make people like you. And if they like you, then they'll listen

to what you've got to say. And I don't mean that in a insipid kind of way. What I mean is you just got to be friendly with people. And I think that's the key to all things in life. My schedule has been so hectic recently, running around trying to keep on top of my writing days, my podcast recordings, there are live shows coming up. It's super exciting, but that's just work. Amongst all of this, I'm conscious of making time for my husband, my wider family and my friends. And I need all the help I can get coordinating everyone's schedules to make sure we all have time to meet up. That's where the Life360 app comes in. It's a location sharing app

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to launch, use offer code FAIL10 to save 10% off your first purchase of a website and domain. This idea of tightropes and lives on lived brings us onto your first failure, which is your failure to become a footballer. And it's a specific failure. It's the under 15 Cheshire boys schools trial. Yeah. Tell us what happened. I was a good footballer.

You know, I was captain of the school team. I was captain of every team that I played for. You know, it was kind of drummed into me that, you know, that's your way out, that's going to be your passports off the estate. And football was just the thing that I was, I was in my head destined to do. And it was also a connection with my dad and my brother and it was a thing that we could talk about. I was definitely destined for that avenue

and I remember my games teacher Mr Hilton took a couple of us to the trials but all the way he was saying to me, listen all you've got to do is just keep it steady you'll be fine and we turned up and it was a King's school in Chester and I'll be honest I didn't even know there was such a difference between the schools. I didn't know there was, I don't think I really understood about private schools or anything like that and King's School was the private school in Chester and we turned up because they had more pitches than anywhere else. There's all these lads playing, some that I recognize from some of the schools we played against. And they had one game going on first

and then another game starting a little bit later. And we were in the second game, freezing. So we watched a bit of the first game. And I noticed that a lot of the lads seemed to know each other's names. And as it transpired, the kids from King's School, seven were on one team, nine were on the other team and like all the other schools had brought three or four kids and it was the teacher from King's School who was picking the squad.

So anyway they had their game, the second game began, I started playing in the second game and I thought this just doesn't look right. It ended up one side had 12 players on. That's how much the guys who were meant to be coaching, meant to be inspecting the players were watching. They hadn't even noticed that one side had too many players on. I remember scoring a great goal, in my head it was a fantastic goal. It was a good goal. I remember playing well. I remember one of my mates was getting fantastic goal. It was a good goal. I remember playing well. I remember

one of my mates was getting a lift back off his dad and he said, you know, give you a lift and Mr. Hilton saying, look, go with them. You'll be fine. He said, I'll stay and I'll phone you up later. I remember him phoning me up and it was the first significantments that I felt in my life. And I had a lot of things happen in my life, even up to that point. And but I remember getting a phone call and saying, I can't believe it. He didn't pick you. He said, I went mad at the teacher. He said, I've put an official complaint in the way it was done. He said, but he's he's tended to pick all the people from his school.

He said, it's disgusting. And I remember going upstairs, going to the bathroom and I go, are you all right? And I go, no, no, no, I'm going into the bathroom and crying because I suddenly felt all those dreams were gone. Because the pathway at that time, was you play for the school team, you play for the county,

scouts would pick you up for the county, and then you'd get an apprenticeship and all of a sudden that full stop had happened. And it must happen to a lot of kids obviously in sports or in performance or something like that where somebody says you're not up to it. And it was just the injustice of it because probably, you, as I've got older and I have played with a lot of players who made it, I remember getting into the under-18s side later on, the Cheshire under-18s. And I was still pissed off about it then,

because some of the lads had played in the under-15s. And I remember we played the game against the Ellesmere Ports, and it was the first time ever I'd played a football match against somebody who was my own age, and it was this lad playing for Ellesmere Ports, who someone said went on to play for Everton, or someone signed for Everton. He was just miles better than me.

But that was the first time someone my age was miles better than me. You think, oh, that's my limitation. But not at 15, not on that day. On that day, when we talk about how to fail, what failed was the system. I was so angry with the injustice of it. So angry with the fact that I know I should have been picked. And if I'd have been picked, as I say, I might have run out of track at some point. I would have reached the point of someone saying, you're not good enough. But it wasn't for them to say on that day.

And you deserve the opportunity. And it's like you were playing one game and there was a whole other game being played that was rigged against you. Exactly. That injustice, how did you deal with it? How old were you? Were you 15?

15. How did you process it then? Maybe you didn't, maybe you looked at it away and only looked at it. You know what? I hadn't really thought about it very much until I got asked to do this show. I was thinking, what are the points in your life where there's been a failure, where you've not achieved what you thought

you were going to achieve, and that stood out. And that immediately, immediately came out. So that's been buried deep inside for a long time. How aware did you then become of class and the injustice around class in this country? Oh, I was always aware of class, I think, because we lived on a council estate, first of all, and when we left Liverpool, we went to a place called Winsford. I remember, you know, there were some lads who lived on the private estate and they just had more toys than me.

And my dad went to prison when I was six, only for a year. But if there was ever a moment in my life that I knew how the world saw us, it was that. Because I remember going to see him and I will never, I'll never forget just the way you were looked at, the way the guards looked at you. Was it dehumanising? Oh, it was horrible. Each door you went through was locked behind you as you went through,

as the families all went through. And it just felt like you were cattle. It felt like you were. It felt like you were judged and nobody is interested in the truth or the reality. You were just one of them. All of that got reconfirmed by that one moment. The story, which I notice you're not telling, which I think is interesting because maybe you feel like, well, I don't have to justify it, but I'm going to tell a story about the reason your dad was in jail is because he was defending his wife, your mother, from

men who attacked her and he couldn't afford a good defense and he was sort of stitched up. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a very difficult thing for a family to deal with. Oh yeah. It is, it's hard, it's funny because I've just got my dad staying with me now.

He's gonna be 84 this week, my dad. And he's got a twin brother. One of the stupid ideas in their defense was to say it wasn't him. Which one of these twins did it? And I went, really, that's, that's, you clearly didn't have a good defense if somebody was suggesting that, but yeah, it was, it was that. That's what happened. Yeah.

And I'm glad that you know the story, but basically there'd been an incident, an altercation at some point. And then, and my mum was getting chips at a chip, my dad was in the car and these two fellas started having a go at it and shoved it around and that was it. Have you forgiven the system that did that? No, never will. Because one of the things that came across loud and clear when I was doing research for this interview was how much you give back to charity, so £96,000 to the Hillsborough victims' families, millions of pounds raised through sport relief. Is that part of your purpose, do you think, that? Kind of giving

back to people who need it because you didn't get it? Yeah, yeah. And quietly, I mean, the money that I gave to the Hillsborough family support group was anonymous, but they asked if they could make it public. I tried to do it anonymously when I can. And part of it is because, you know, some of the things that I've been able to support are in themselves small charities that make a big difference. And they're the things that, it's nice, the sport relief thing was all good. And it's nice to be able to do stuff that raises money, but I'm also very, very fortunate that I make a good living out of doing something that I love. So I don't have to raise money, I

just have to keep blessed with it. I love that. Yeah. This idea of working for a living and how necessary that was given where you came from. I imagine that made it particularly difficult to walk away from your secure job as a sales rep and to take this punt. It did and it didn't because, you know, me and Melanie got back together. It was a joint decision. You said in the introduction three years in reality reality it was, I didn't leave my job until six years later. I'd overlapped so many times with the job that I did. And I told my boss,

you know, I'd go to the Edinburgh Festival. I'd rent a flat in Edinburgh. I'd have one week's holiday. And the other times, the other times I would there, I'd be going to see the transplant unit in Edinburgh. I'd be flying down to London in the day, back to do a gig of a night. I was doing all of these things to run them parallel. And then it just came to a point I thought, you know, the people around me who'd been on the circuit with me, like Alan Carr, Jason Manford, Michael McIntyre, Jimmy Carr, they'd all gone on and I'd reached the point of recognizing that if you didn't make this step then that's where you're going to be then. You're going to be a really good circuit comic and you might be able to

generate an audience locally but that's your limit. And so I just sat down with Melanie and said, look, I'd started doing these sportsman's dinners and sportsman's dinners were getting done in the middle of the week. So you're doing gigs over weekend and you're getting whatever you're getting for the gig. You do sportsman's dinners and you might get 700 quid. I'm like, well, if I could do that, self-employed, change it.

And then I could do a little bit ofemployed, change it, and then I could do a little bit of consultancy. The company that I was working for didn't want me to leave. So they offered me a consultancy so I could take that. So there was a lot of things suggesting, you know, you could be okay. And I spoke to Melanie, I said, look, I promise I'll make the same amount of money because when we got back together, because the kids had missed out so much, we kind of agreed she was doing a job. She didn't like, I said, well, you don't have to work if I can do this and then, and then the kids will get the time that we never, never really had with them. And, and so I said, look, I just promised her I'll make the same amount of money. And she said, she said, I think you will.

And for the first three years, obviously, I didn't. Everything went down. We added to the mortgage, all of those things. But the bottom line is, I remember looking at my kids who at that time would have been, I guess, about 12, 10, 8, something like that. And I thought the main reason for me not doing this is because we've got a nice house, usually going to a nice school, and I've got kids. And what's going to happen if I don't do this, that would be the main thing that will bug me forever.

Is that I didn't do it because I had you. And that's a coward's way of living. I'm going to blame you for me not doing it. And I could sense that because everyone was going, you know, you're taking a chance. And I just thought, back yourself. And what's the worst that can happen? Because when you talk about the work ethic, for me, I knew it was impossible for me to go back to where I'd started from. It was impossible. That would never happen.

So anything beyond that was success. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Now I'm a big believer in the importance of maintaining your mental health, and thank goodness people's views on therapy have evolved throughout the years to be more positive about the benefits. However, I'm fully aware there's still progress to be made. Thirty-seven percent of participants in a recent UK survey say they feel uncomfortable discussing mental health concerns with others due to fear of judgement.

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Terms and conditions apply. Just tell us the story quickly about you and Melanie. I know you've told it before. Basically, the story is we split up. I ended up doing standup comedy in a way I didn't expect it. And then what happened after being apart for almost two years, about 20 months, she came to a gig. Well, no, she came to a comedy club, not knowing I did stand up comedy.

I didn't tell anyone at this time, didn't tell any of my mates. She's in this comedy club with people who don't know me in this new job, on someone's birthday, I think it was, and their ex-husband gets announced on the stage, walks on the stage, and at the time I used to tell this terrible joke about saying, you know, I'm really sad at the moment I split up with my wife and the others go, oh, it's not that bad, we're not divorced or anything, I've just killed her, but I've kept her head in the fridge. Terrible joke. And not something I would say now, and certainly not something I would say after that night, because I looked to the left and

the head that was meant to be in the fridge was in the audience. And I thought, and I tell you where we were at. We were at the decree nigh-side stage of the divorce. Wow, so it was really advanced. Yeah. So we were just haggling over money and kids and stuff like that. And I remember seeing the head thing. Oh my God, that joke's going to cost me another 20 grand.

And then she came over at the end and she was laughing. And I'll never forget the line she said, and it sounds like a gag, but it was actually true. She just said, look, it was just great to see you doing that. She said, you've got that bounce in your step, that glint in your eyes. She said, you've got that bouncing your step, that glint in your eyes. She said, you're like the man I met. She said, what happened to you? I said, I married you. And then she said, well, can we do something? And then we ended up, and actually on reflection, we ended up going to counseling because we couldn't, she wouldn't sign the papers and we couldn't finalise the deal.

So we went to counselling not to get back together or to see what was wrong, to try and source out the final details about lawyers. And I remember sitting in the room, and we sat in the room and she was talking for 20 minutes and I was talking for 20 minutes and was going a little bit backwards and forth and this counselor went, what are you two doing here? And she said, I can see, why don't you just go for a coffee? I can see what you probably can't see. Just go and have a coffee. And then that was it. And do you consider it a full on second marriage just with the same person? Oh listen, I think that story's a lovely story and I think the biggest story is the fact like at the end of this month it'll be 32 years since we got married, that'll be our, well on and off obviously, but every 32 years and so getting back together when you've got young kids

Getting back together when you've got young kids after two years apart, that's all right. But then to get on a roller coaster that our life's been, where your life has completely changed and one of you has become a public commodity in some respects and everything that was normal has been thrown out the window and to still be there then, I think that's a bigger achievement because what we've had to go through as a family has been not something that we could have prepared for and where we're at now is not somewhere I imagine we'd ever get to. Congratulations. Oh, it's honestly, it's as you get older, you reflect on things in a different way and what's important in a relationship changes and you know, we met, I was 21 when I met her. It's funny, somebody asked me recently about touring and you're looking forward to going home and I have a beautiful

house and all of those bits and I just suddenly realised that she's home. But that's true. That's so lovely. I have a million questions I want to ask but we need to get onto your second failure before I do. Your top tip for a relationship lasting? Go on tour for six months of the year. You know what? I honestly don't know. You've got to grow together and listen, anyone who says, oh, we're wonderful and whatever, that's bollocks. I mean, Jesus Christ. The other thing about being connected with somebody in the same way that we are is no

one can make me feel like she does. And so she can make me feel shit as well. So if Melanie's annoyed with me, it ruins me day. I couldn't give a shit what anyone else thinks. Someone's annoyed with me, it ruins me day. I couldn't give a shit what anyone else thinks. Someone's annoyed with me, I'm not bothered. But she has, she has a place in my psyche that no one else does. And in the same way she can lift me.

She's funny and I won't be unique in this. Everybody who does this kind of joke, you take your jokes to the world You know what I mean? I give my jokes to strangers. I'll give my tears to her because well, I'm Down and I'm done. No one else sees it. Mm-hmm We're going back in time for your second failure, which is your English a level Yes. Yes. Yes.

So I understand. So you at this school and you were the first in your family to do O levels? GCSE? Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, yeah, no, I was O levels. And I remember, I remember me dad saying to me, your mom says you're doing O levels. I said, yeah, good. That was it.

That was the biggest, because me brother and me sister, sisters don't GCSEs, no, CSEs as it was then. And so, and I've been putting these groups to do all levels and I went back to sixth form to the school that I was in. We had 2000 kids in the form. And it was brilliant. I got a name. I got a letter literally two days ago

that had been scanned in by my agent. It went to my agent, but it's from my old English teacher, Julie Withers, Miss Withers, who was also the head of the sixth form in this school. This school had a sixth form. It was starting at sixth form. We the sixth form in this school. This school had a sixth form. It was starting at sixth form. We had 2000 kids in the school.

We had six people in the sixth form, in the first year of the sixth form. And I was one of them. In fact, I made it up to seven. And then what happened, I turned up in the first day in jeans and he said, no, the sixth form means you've got to wear trousers. And I went, I'm not going back and asking,

asking my mum for trousers. There's no chance. These are new jeans. Because no one had a job in your house at that time, did they? So you were worried about asking for money for trousers? Yeah, I wasn't going to do that. And I do is, my brother and sisters were on a scheme. My dad was in an house of work

and my mom was working in a kitchen cleaning pans. And I left and I started looking for the scheme. Then I ended up getting a job at ICI. A job that wouldn't exist these days, a male lad. I knew if I couldn't get off, if football wasn't going to be the way out, and it wasn't listening, the estate wasn't, it was a really nice estate, but you know, get onto that next stage in life. Whatever, if I couldn't do it through football, I tried

through education. So I tried to do A levels at night school whilst I was doing the job. And I was trying to do a law A level ironically, and, and an English A level. Uh, because I was good at English. I was always told I was good at English and I was doing them at night school one night a week. And it got to Christmas and I went to see some mates in the sixth form. And, uh, I was in my wear clothes, big metal boots and all that stuff, the clothes that you wear in a chemical factory and the English teacher, Mr Logan, Jeff

Logan saw me. I don't know why I know all my teachers' first names. I didn't know any of that. And he said, what are you doing? I said, well, I'm trying to do my A-levels and stuff, but I'm working. And he said, well, why don't you come back? I said, well, I've missed the term and I'm not going to start again. And he went, and him and Mr. Davids, Dave Davids, who's the history guy, said, look, we can help you catch up. And I said, I can't do it for the money. There's no way I can drop the money. And so Miss Phillips, the headmistress, I'll never forget this, actually. I remember they took me into her office

and we negotiated that the school would allow me to go and sign on and come back into A levels without disrupting anyone else and telling anyone else that I was doing it so that I could get the £18.50. Wow, they really cared. Oh, yeah. It was, yeah, it made a massive difference there. And then I went home, told me my dad was going to leave because we were were gonna do A levels. And again, they were going, why you've got a job? I went, because I want something more.

And my dad was going, but what is that? Like, you've got a job at a factory where everyone, no one leaves, you'd be, get your pension there. And I went, but that's not what I want. And I'll never forget it. The best advice anyone's ever given me. We sat there, we were talking, I had to get up at six to get the bus to work.

I remember my dad saying to me, look, it was nearly midnight. And I remember him saying, look, listen, I can't talk it out of it. He said, if it's what you want to do, he said, you've got to do it. Cause if you don't try it, you'll never know what would have happened. And I took that advice onto just about everything. So when it came to leaving my job to do comedy, I thought I took that again.

If you don't try it, I'll never know. You did try it and you worked really hard and you didn't get the A that you were predicted? No. So what happened, I set my English A level. I always had a problem with spelling. At the time, dyslexia wasn't as well understood. What it is, I can't spell in my head. And so recently I've been learning sign language. Oh God, deaf people love to spell. For your son, your elder son. Yeah, he doesn't need it or do it. I'm doing it now for myself.

But with that, so that was the connection because he's okay with hearing aids and he wants to live in the hearing world continuous as much as he can before. But anyway, I'm still learning. I still do some sign language, but with sign language, the hard thing for me is like when people are telling you to use sign language, you spell it to your brother,

they're spelling it. It's to me, it's not making any difference to me unless I can write down what to spell. I just can't spell in my head. So it'd always been this thing. And there's a joke that I always say in standup when I talk about being dyslexic, where they phoned home and said,

look, we think you're John's dyslexic and that we're living in the Northwest was so good. Cause we were only an hour from Wales. So my dad drove me to Wales, got out, pointed at the first road sign, said, there you go son, you're not the only one. And there was an element where we were on holiday in Wales and my dad was saying, does that make any sense to you?

And anyway, so I'd been fine with it. And, and the, I'd, I'd applied to go and do English and history at the great Newcastle Poly and, and the, the estimated marks were really good. And everything, the mock exam had been good. My history was good. I did well in the history A level. I'd got a low A level in one year when I was kind of carried on with the night school

when I went back to normal school. So I was very confident and I went into this exam, this English exam and I don't know what happened, something happened. In the end they came back ungraded and it was you. I didn't even know what you meant and they went just ungraded in the school where we just don't know what to do. So the school paid to get it remarked because my whole life was hanging on this. And it, and it came back and he sent the paper back and he gave it to me as well. The school and I wish I'd have kept it. And he just went, you just had a meltdown. The sentences just made no sense.

And, and the words were written backwards and some words were written like almost upside down and it was just my brain had just gone berserk and so I remember sitting teaching going how did that happen? You've obviously gone in that nervous and that anxious that it's overloaded your brain and I took so much from that. Cause I remember thinking, I remember walking in, feeling the weight of the importance of it and, and I've never felt like that ever again. It's so interesting because one of the things I understand about how you perform comedy is that you leave it quite free and you don't write anything down. So you don't over prepare. Do you think that's a legacy of this?

A little bit. Yeah. And I also, a lot of people always said to me about comedy, do you get nervous? And now and again, you get nervous. But I always think none of it matters. This doesn't matter. When something really mattered, I cared that much around it. matter. When something really mattered, I cared that much, I ruined it. So don't, don't worry about it. Cause it's like, I remember somebody asking me once, how would you define confidence? And I said, to me, confidence is about consequence. You can be confident if you're not bothered what the consequences are. That is so good. It's like, what's the worst thing that can happen?

The worst thing that can happen might be a bit embarrassing for 10 minutes. So the consequences aren't that great. How does it feel now being the father of three sons who have a more privileged life than you did? Oh, listen, again, I used to say my kids are the kids I used to throw stones at. It's difficult, but I think it's a generational thing. I think we are the first parents, my generation of parents, or the first parents to parents in a world we never lived in. And we didn't understand, we were the first, you know,

the internet, social media, all of these, all of these pressures of expectation. You've got to go, it's not your fault that you've grown up in a nice house and it's not your fault that you've grown up in a nice house and it's not your fault that you don't know what I know. Yeah. And I don't, I also don't want you to know it. Yeah. I remember talking to a friend of mine once who from a similar background to myself and we were talking about having kids who maybe don't know, maybe, you know,

don't know what you do. And they said, well, someone's got to win. You know, if you can't take them back to their state, why would you want to? Someone's got to gain from it. What you want is your hope that they take the right values from it. Before we get onto your final failure, you've spoken so movingly about some of your childhood and the things that you went through. And I suppose it's quite a cliché question, but I'll ask it anyway. Do you think your comedy has to be rooted in that darkness?

Well, you say movingly. What made you use that word? that darkness. When you say movingly, what made you use that word? Because I felt moved. I feel, I suppose it's just an intangible thing where I feel that I feel your emotion. So you talking about your son's not knowing your darkness, I find very moving because also part of your role as a parent is protection. Yeah, but I don't want people to feel that I had an unhappy childhood. I had a childhood that was reflective

of the circumstances I was living in. But don't talk about it as in depth as this. And sometimes, even during this conversation, I find myself catching myself because as I've got older, I've been more open about some of the things that I've kept as a bloke down and I've kind of become more comfortable with that. So maybe it feels more emotional than I realize myself. And I think it's also used the way darkness is. There's not darkness. There's things that have shaped me as a person that I'm grateful for. But at the time, I'd have done anything not to have gone through.

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and why you categorize it as a failure. I'll tell you, so what happened is UK TV, which was one of the arms of Sky, had a channel, W, and he said, you know, and I wanted to do, I wanted to do this, I wanted to do a one-on-one interview. And he said, I was going to work. I said, well, this, do this, I wanted to do a one on one interview. And he said, how's it going to work? I said, well this, I'll sit with somebody and talk with them and it'll be an hour of one on one interview. And we're talking like 2017, this was happening. And he said, have you ever done it before? I said, well, see what we're doing now. This is it. That's all the magic that there is. I'll say something, you say something,

we'll put cameras on it. And so he said, okay, let's give it a go. And we ended up doing 41 episodes of this over 2017 and 2018. And as you say, great interviews. And I loved it. But because I'm a comedian, it took everyone a while to adjust to the idea that, you know, these were just conversations. These were not set up for gags. These were what is now known as a podcast. And what happened, it came to the end of its life as far as the commission was concerned because of the way the deal had, they had lots of television, cause they could repeat it so many times

over so many years. And so they, it ended and I was absolutely gutted cause I think on television was the thing I was the most proud of. I really, I enjoyed doing it. I felt it was good at it. I felt it was good at it. I felt it was revealing a different aspect to me, but I also felt at the time it was quite unique.

And so I wanted to find a way of carrying it on. And I spoke to people doing podcasts and everyone was going, yeah, but there's no money in podcasts. And I was thinking, well, stick it on YouTube. And they're going, yeah, but there's no money in it. And I was thinking, well, stick it on YouTube. And they're going, yeah, but there's no money in it. And like, you've got limited time. You've got all of these other things that are going on.

All of these projects that are going on. Just written a comedy drama for ITV. I was writing a book. I was doing this. I was on tour. And you've got, your family was at a difficult stage with their age and their teenage and you're going to do something for nothing and I just thought yeah but I really want to do it and I can't find a way of

me and I call it a failure because instinctively I knew I should have carried on doing it but I was I knew I should have carried on doing it, but I was, I took the decision not to based on the fact that everyone was saying, look at your time as a monetary value. Look at your time. You're going to give time to this when there's a monetary value to your time that could be spent somewhere else. And I really got into myself because I'm not that bothered about money. I've never been motivated by money, but I felt like because there's so many other people involved that was part of the decision process and I shouldn't have done.

And then, and then obviously, you know, this show or other shows fill that void. Whereas at the time there was no one else really doing it. And now, and I, you know, I ended up doing another podcast with the mate of mine, Tony, called three little words, but again, we were paid money to do it by Amazon. It was behind the paywall. You know, the end conversation was behind the paywall. Um, and all of those things and stuff that I just want to remove myself from. So I now do a podcast with a mate of mine, Dez Smith. Dez Smith, Dez Bishop. Why have I called him Dez Smith? There's only room in this comedy world for one of us. It's called the Bishop Exchange. It's the Bishop Exchange. And it's actually brilliant because from going to the point

of always wanting to interview somebody and peel something back. I think you do it brilliantly. I think other people do it brilliantly. I don't need to do that. What I need to do now is have a laugh for an hour a week with a mate of mine. And that's what we do. It's basically the phone call that we would make each week to each other anyway. And it's fun. And that was another thing. And I think when we come back to education and life and all the rest of it

one of the things that I've possibly undervalued and this was another bit when it comes down to seeing this as a failure I've undervalued the value of the skill I've got in other words I've always wanted validation. I've always wanted someone to say, you're good enough, you should have got that trial or you should have got that A level. You're clever enough. We accept now that you're clever enough. Rather than just going, actually, what I'm loving now is getting back to this point of going, actually, what you do is you make people laugh for an hour. That's enough. Because right now, that's the importance of that for me. I'm recognizing that. Like this last tour I've done

and this next tour is just, it's just, It sounds stupid, but I'm getting more professional at the comedy. Whereas the comedy used to be something I could do, and I'd be more professional at the other stuff, like the in conversation. That voice that you long to hear saying, you're good enough, whose voice is it? Hmm. Hmm. Probably me own. I am often my own, not where it's critic that I'm down on myself. I always I always think there's something more I could do. And that's been a good thing.

But like Melanie said, sometimes that's been hard to live with. Because it's led at times to the almost like a FOMO. Almost like, well, I know this is a nice hotel, but I bet it is a nicer hotel. I know this is, you know what I mean? Almost like I know we're having a nice time, but I bet there's a nicer time around the corner. And I've, and in some respects, and I think that I will not be alone in this,

in some respects, I'm so much more a better person now than I was, you know, 20 years ago. And I needed to be a better person 20 years ago than I do now. Because 20 years ago my kids were grown up. Do you regret that? Oh yeah, I think I've been, not regret it, I've always been as good as I can be with the tools I had at that time. But just, because the thing that people don't realise is when your circumstances change, fame for whatever that is comes along. It's affecting everyone around you, but you're the only one who gets the applause.

You're the only one that gets the applause. You're the only one that the light's shining on. And that's hard. And I would have liked, when I see a lot of my friends who are in a similar position to me, their kids are babies or they're just having kids, they're being born into a world where that person knows who they are. Me and Melanie, we're in this where that person knows who they are. You know, me and Melanie were in this, getting to know ourselves just as people and then getting to know ourselves in this changing environment, whilst trying to bring up kids.

You know, I would give anything. I'd give anything to have my little kids again for a day. give it anything to have my little kids again for a day. If I could just pick them all up at once or ride them all on my back at once. But the oldest one's dirty. You can't do that now. Can't do that with one of them, let alone three of them. You'll probably be able to do it with grandchildren. Yeah. My son said that to me actually yesterday. Talking of grandchildren, I'm going to end on an extremely important and deep and difficult question, John.

Are you ready? Because you're turning 60 in 2026. Your skin is phenomenal. And I need to know why. What are you doing to your skin? And I think this is a genuine question. You know what? And right now we could hold that and I could get sponsored for my podcast. L'Oreal could come in, give us a good right few quid and I'll say whatever they want. the corial could come in, give us a good right few quid and I'll say whatever they want. You know the truth is, right, I've not eaten meat for 40 years, any meat, fish or meat, so I'm vegetarian that helps. This is going to sound awful. I don't wash my face.

You don't wash your face, so it starts washing itself, probably a bit like hair. I honestly don't know. And the reason is is I used to have an allergic reaction to soap, but I found out it was cheap soap, perfume cheap soap, would make my face flare up. So I stopped washing it. So I, and literally there's some nights I barely put water on my face. Do you put moisturiser on? Sorry, I had to know. Yeah, I do put moisturiser. And again, it's one of those things that my dad, and my dad like, my dad's a tough fella. He worked on the jocks and then worked on building sites

all his life and all that stuff. And he's what you'd imagine a working class man to be. We don't talk about a lot of things. In fact, I was saying to someone the other day, if me and my dad don't say, if you watch the match, I don't think we've had a conversation for 10 years. But I remember when I was a kid, him saying, always, your mum uses this moisture, look after your face. I love the fact that you're saying all of this because this feels, I mean with the girls it feels like we're having a slumber party.

Listen, we've got the pink. Oh come on, honestly that's it, I haven't got anything. Yeah, yeah, um, avocado, rub avocado in, rub avocado skins into my face. Can I patent that before we say it? Yeah, it's your next one. Thank you for saying that by the way. Oh, it's a pleasure. I'm glad we've ended on this note. We've been on a journey, but I did want to ask you about the quality of your skin. You're clearly just genetically

blessed. Yeah, I'll take that. Thank you so, so much, John Bishop. No, thank you. This has been interesting. I hope it's been worthwhile. I've absolutely loved it. And I've been moved in spite of the fact you thinking that it hasn't been moving. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.

Thank you so much for listening.