How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Jonathan Van Ness - 'I was one wrong thing away from losing everything'

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

Over on Failing with Friends this week, JVN and I get into relationship therapy and the perfect length of shorts on a man. To hear JVN tackling your failures, join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Jonathan Van Ness, one fifth of Netflix’s hit show Queer Eye,  three-times New York Times bestseller, podcaster, business magnate and all-round icon is on the pod this week. JVN joins us to talk about TV show cancellations, almost getting cancelled, business failures and learning that validation is an inside job. Plus: the Queer Eye makeover they still regret. And: what would JVN do to Donald Trump's hair? To check out JVN’s hair products go to: https://www.spacenk.com/uk/brands/j/jvn-hair Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole & Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, Georgia. Hi, David. What do you think the world needs more of? Well, the world always needs more podcasts. Didn't you used to have a podcast? Not only did I used to have a podcast, Georgia, it's coming back. David Tennant does a podcast with. Season 3 is coming at you.

Okay, and who are your guests? Who are my guests? What about Russell T. Davis? What about Jamila Jamil? What about Stanley the Tooch Toochie? So it's really just you hanging out with your mates then? Yeah. Come join me. David Tennant does a podcast with. Bye.

Hello there. Did you know that you can hear all of the things that my guests might have failed to divulge in the main episode by joining us in our subscriber community, Failing With Friends? It's where you will hear really riveting pieces of information like Olivia Atwood's dream date location or Miranda Hart's advice on performing bodily functions in front of your partner. Just follow the link in the podcast notes and we will see you there. Welcome to How To Fail. And for those that are new around here, this is the podcast where I talk to my guests about three failures in their life and what they've learned along the way. Please do follow this podcast because it really helps other people find us. And

please do share it with all of your friends and family members and even people you don't like. We're not fussy. Thank you so much for being here. On all of my body of Queer Eye, it's the only time where the hero looked worse when I was done. I was like one wrong thing away from like losing everything. I mean there are times where I'm like snappy and short and I need to work on it and it's a process that I've been working on for 37 years. My guest today is a shaper of culture, a queer icon, a three times New York Times bestseller, a podcaster, award-winning TV personality, a business magnate who started their own sustainable hair care brand, and

running at a breath there are so many achievements, and according to their own website, an HIV positive non-binary truth teller determined to make this world a better, more equitable, yet funnier place. They are, of course, Jonathan Van Ness, or JVN for those in the know. They grew up in a small town in Illinois, often feeling like an outsider and experiencing bullying for their love of figure skating, gymnastics, and their mother's Hermes scarves. Van Ness was the first male cheerleader at their high school, and despite a challenging early adulthood involving drugs and sex addiction, they found their way to fame through hair styling.

Gay of Thrones, their hilarious recaps of Game of Thrones from the styling chair, was nominated for an Emmy. But it was their casting in Netflix's Queer Eye that shot them to global fame. In a fractured society, the makeover show opens minds by showing that our similarities are greater than our differences. Today, alongside Queer Eye, Van Ness hosts their podcast, Getting Curious, and is about to head off on a stand-up comedy tour in the US. Despite all their success, Van Ness has been open about their struggles with self-acceptance in the past. In their award-winning 2019 memoir Over the Top, they wrote,

When you have this much personality, there's a fear lurking just below the surface. If you knew all of me, you wouldn't love me anymore. You would no longer want me as your new best friend. Jonathan Van Ness, welcome to How to Fail. Hi, thanks for having me. Thank you so much for being here. I totally want you to be my new best friend. Well, thank you so much for saying that, honey. I want to be your best friend too.

It's done. It's a done deal. But I wanted to end on that quote partly because your memoir is so beautifully written, and partly because it spoke to something deep in my soul, that sense that however someone sees you on the outside, you could be feeling totally differently on the inside. How do you feel now in terms of that self-acceptance? I feel in a completely different place than when I wrote Over the Top. I think when Over the Top came out, I had equal parts relief and vulnerability hangover,

as Brené Brown would say. I did disclose my HIV status in that book, and while I thought I was, like, really ready to share everything that I shared in the book, I really was, like... I just wasn't prepared for the reaction. And I went through something so hard at the beginning of last year, which was this Rolling Stone article that was just like... a devastating experience for me.

But one thing that that taught me was that my idea of self-acceptance, I thought, was self-earned, but really, it was because of the validation of social media, of so many of those achievements that you read in that intro, and my sense of self-acceptance and self-love was so rocked by that experience that, like, such an intense depression, such an intense, just so many experiences that got brought up to the surface that I never kind of saw coming,

that it made me rethink so much of my career, so much of how I come across in public, and ultimately, it really did teach me that like validation has to come from inside, because if you are relying on it from other people, media, parasocial relationships, it will leave you a hollow shell of yourself. Oh, Jonathan, I'm so sorry.

Oh, my God, it was so traumatizing. It was an article that basically made various allegations about bad rapes. Said I was an emotionally abusive monster with rage issues, who was a nightmare to work with in any capacity. I think the reason that that's coming up for me is because I knew with Queer Eye, like,

and I say it over the top, like, who you see on Queer Eye is who I am, and there's so much more. Um, and so I was always scared with Queer Eye because I was like, I don't know if I can live up to this version of myself all the time. And there are times where I'm like,

snappy and short and I need to work on it. And it's a process that I've been working on for like 37 years. So I think, and it's like almost the year anniversary of it. And I'm just, there was a time where I like didn't know what my life would look like. And I feel better than I've felt in such a long time. ALICE And I can imagine that we're, I could have been so crushing to have to live up to when we are multifaceted humans and we can't be easily pigeonholed or put into a box. There was this thing that I read about you about your grandfather being called the floater

when he played Trivial Pursuit and how you apply that term to your own life. Will you tell us that story? Yeah. So I love that you read that. So my family would always play Trivial Pursuit on vacation and we're a competitive bunch. And my grandfather would just answer questions for anybody's team. And he would be assigned to a team, but he just didn't care. He was like, if he knew that answer, honey, he was gonna let you know. And I do feel that I picked that trade up because I will just randomly hear a question that wasn't even directed to me and I so badly want to answer it and just

like participate. So I think I have like a floater quality myself. CHARLEYY And do you think you apply that floater quality to your identity too? JARED Maybe. I mean, I think if anything, I think I just like love to learn things. And as long as it's not math, I just like wanna learn about that. I think it's really interesting. Yes, hence getting curious of podcasts and your plans to launch Getting Better. Yes! I've been podcasting for such a long time.

I think it was like December of 2015 that I started getting curious. Oh, you are an OG. Yeah. And then I took like, December of 2015 that I started getting curious. Oh, you are an OG. Yeah. And then I took, like... I went from December of, like, 15 to, like, February of 17, booked Queer Eye. My podcast got canceled the next day. I love this story. Got canceled the next day, and I remember thinking in my head

to that, like, the president of that network, I was like, big mistake, huge. Like, you work on commission, right? Because you don't even know what mistake you just made. But it was good, because I, like, so I kind of paused the podcast, went and filmed the first two seasons of Queer Eye. And then when I was done, it was like September of 2017, because it took like four months to film those first two seasons.

I was like so excited to get back into the studio and start, because I mean, at that time, I was like booking all my own guests, scheduling all my own guests, like, it was like me and a sound engineer. So much work. But I was so excited to get back into the studio and start. Because I mean, at that time, I was like booking all my own guests, scheduling all my own guests. Like it was like me and a sound engineer. So much, so much work. But I was so excited to get back to it. And then and then I started back, you know, in 2017. And I've been like, I think I did like two like two episodes a month

for a few months, but then I was like every week sometime in the beginning of 2018. So it's been a long time running. And it's like, oh, my God, let's give this a Queer Eye makeover. Like, let's like, switch it up a little bit. So we're changing the name, and I'm just gonna try to like... work with my neurodivergence and... focus.

Which is not in my neurodivergence's arousal template. You know, I like to like, learn about everything different, but we're just gonna try to focus a little bit more. And still be curious, like curiosity-driven, but make it more about like, health, mental health, culture, society, how to, how to kind of find the parts of ourselves that we need to work on and find the parts of ourselves that we need to love on and ultimately like refine ourselves into like the best version of ourselves.

Love that. Talking of the best version of ourselves and your renewed feeling of self-acceptance, is that also partly to do with the fact that you've got married? Oh my gosh. My husband's so cute. Yeah, we've been, I think I say to him like once a month, I'm like, can you believe how long we've been married? It's my my longest relationship ever. And we'll be married for five years this June. Congratulations. Thank you. It's like, it's longer than like an Olympic cycle. That's a really long time.

Yeah. And has that helped with your sense of peace? I don't know. I mean, I think it, I don't know if it's helped with my sense of peace, but he has helped me be a better person. And I just think a secure functioning relationship is like, it's a conscious choice. It's not easy, but it is easy. I'm non-binary, so it's hard for me to exactly pick something. It's a joke.

But it's easy and it's hard. Like, there is an ease to being with him, like, and there's also difficulty because relationships, like, are kind of like a mirror. Like, it brings up the things in you that you are like, ooh, I don't know if I like that part of me. And I need to like work on that. But he also has such like, intense patience and love

and like patience and acceptance. So having that in my life, I do think has brought me a lot of peace. I so appreciate your honesty. So that brings us neatly onto Queer Eye. And before we get onto your failures, I just wanted to say thank you for Queer Eye. It still has the capacity to make me cry

every single episode because Because it's about... not only how people feel about themselves, but it's also a challenge to the culture at large, it feels now. In the times that we're living through, it is a show about acceptance and inclusivity. And I just wondered what it means to you. It means so much that sometimes I almost feel like I can't fully feel it, because I almost don't even trust myself to fully feel it,

because it would be, like, too overwhelming, because I'm just so honored. The first Queer Eye was a huge deal to me, and it, like, I watched it religiously, I watched it with my mom, I watched it with my grandparents. Um, and I do think that Queer, the the first queer I had a huge ripple effect in culture that I literally rode on one of those waves. So to get to hopefully magnify that and be a part of

of that conversation now is like, I just can't even believe that I got to do it. And at the same time, it's kind of concerning being like, uh, politically minded and like, being just aware of the world. Because while representation and there has been, I think, a lot of self-acceptance and like, I mean, part of my mission personally has been to promote this idea of self-acceptance and like, learning to love all of the parts of ourselves. And I think that all of us on the show have had our own kind of passions and initiatives

that we wanted to use our platforms for. But so often, I have heard people say, like, almost use Queer Eye or use other queer representation as a barometer for the like, the health of queer people or, like, our community at large. And, you know, we really clearly can see that that isn't the case. Like, just because there's more queer things on television and more access to queer visibility,

it doesn't mean that queer visibility is not important, but I think it's very clear that queer visibility isn't the answer. Because if it was the answer, we wouldn't have Donald it was the answer, we wouldn't have Donald Trump in the presidency. We wouldn't have this House and Senate outlaw trans participation in sports.

When we're out here talking about like 10 trans athletes, and it's not only competitive athletes, it's like little kids just being able to be included, like to not be bullied in school, to... And what it mostly is too, it's like couched in protecting women and fairness in sports, but what it really is, is making sure that we erase trans people from public view. Like keep it underground, keep it behind closed doors, like we don't want that out in public view.

I just think it's no coincidence that like after Roe was overturned in 2022, the anti-trans vitriol like has risen at the same pace because how do you like divide and conquer? You have to make a bigger threat. And so once like the ultimate threat was carried out on women in 27 states in the United States where they no longer have access to reproductive healthcare. It's like a pretty convenient boogie person, you know, to come up with in trans women or just, you know, trans people. So yeah, so it's a huge honor to be part of Queer Eye. I love Queer Eye so much. I also want us to be able to have like, I want politicians and leaders to do a better job of like, advocating

for queer people. Final question before we get onto your failures. Do you feel less safe in Donald Trump's America? 100%. But I also don't feel like, I mean, I felt, I live in Texas and I felt really concerned there for, I mean, I went there for Queer Eye back in season six and then my husband and I decided to stay. Just like slower pace, you drive everywhere, like more affordable. But it's gotten worse. I mean, it's even just in the last four years, like I don't wear heels to dinner there. Like, you know, like it has totally gotten worse. Because if you did wear heels to dinner. I just like, I literally think about where the

exits are. Like I can't run as fast if I'm in a heel. That's so sad. And I'm so sorry that you're going through it and that the community is going through it. I just feel so bad. It's like our community, but it's also like, there's just so, it's like, it's gun violence. It's like, there's just violence, period. It's, you know, it's weird.

But I still do love America, but I wish we could get it the fuck together. Yeah. Maybe you should run for office. Can you imagine? I actually can imagine. Honey, I'd rather just be like an ambassador to like a chic country.

Yes, ambassador to Paris. Or even just like any country really. Like I don't even have to be, I just think like ambassador Van Ness would be fun. Yes. It's like a little less pressure. You know, it's also not elected. I don't know if I could go through an election. My rejection sensitivity.

Yeah, fair enough. I can so see you as an ambassador with the hosting and the chic outfits. Actually, I don't want to. The hosting, I forgot about that. I don't want to have people over to my house. I don't want them using up my nice china. Like, because you get cute ambassador china, I feel. There's probably like pretty china at the embassy. I don't want these hoes messing up my fucking China.

Hi, Georgia. Hi, David. What do you think the world needs more of? Well, the world always needs more podcasts. Didn't you used to have a podcast? Not only did I used to have a podcast, Georgia, it's coming back. D Lieutenant does a podcast with season three is coming at you. Okay. And who are your guests? Who are my guests? What about Russell T. Davis? What about Jamila Jamil? What about Stanley the Tooch Toochie?

So it's really just you hanging out with your mates then? Yeah. Come join me. David Tennant does a podcast with. Bye. Your first failure, we're talking about TV and the first failure is the Getting Curious TV show being canceled. Tell us about this. So, I pitched it, like, the end of 2019. Netflix was like, we're gonna think about it for a while. And then they said, we're gonna do it, but we don't know when we're gonna do it.

And then I was like, that's kind of nice. Like, I'll just keep thinking about how to adapt to TV, like, no pressure, no timeline, obsessed. Like, it's like development. Then the pandemic happened, and it was like, later on in 2020, like September-ish, and we'd moved to Texas in like March of 2020 and did like four days of our first episode

when everything shut down. And so then it was September of that year, and I think, you know, it started to become clear, like, you couldn't have five people in a car, like, anytime soon. So then at that year, and I think, you know, it started to become clear, like, you couldn't have five people in a car, like, anytime soon. So then at that time, Netflix was like, okay, we want to go into production on your show now. And when I got that call, I had this voice in my head,

like, my intuition was so clear. And it was like, it was a mistake to do this while Queer Eye is on TV. Like, don't do it now. Because if you're, if this has to this while Queer Eye is on TV. Like, don't do it now. Because if you're, if this has to compete with Queer Eye, it's like never gonna work. And so, what I said was, I was like, oh my God, I'm so excited. Um, could we do it like later? Like a lot later?

Like, could we just maybe... And the response was, and not from Netflix, it was from a cacophony of people in my circle, um, were like, they're not asking you when you want to do it. It's like now or never. So under pressure, I said yes. And it just never felt right. Like, I've never worked harder on anything in my life.

I was so scared, because we didn't even have vaccines yet. So much pressure. If I end up on the 6 o'clock news and someone's grandma dies because I wanted to learn about fucking figure skating or snacks, it just was this immense amount of pressure to film under. And so the whole creative of the show was originally a travel show where

I was going to colleges, going into labs, and like... And it just got totally, I mean, we got kind of sequestered into like New York City, like we had to be in like, you know, a very small area. Um, and so it just ended up being like a completely different vision and a completely different... I'm so proud of what we made and our crew and our showrunner and myself. It's the first thing that I ever executive produced.

And I think to EP your own series, I'm so proud of what we got to do. But it wasn't the vision. It felt like just an insect getting, like, hurled at a windshield. Like, I remember thinking that whole time and saying that whole time, like, as long as we get a season two. Like, I just, then I won't feel like I failed,

and it'll give me another, like, makes me wanna cry thinking about it. I'll just know that it was, like, worth it. And then when it got canceled, it was just, like, so brutal. Like, and then realizing that, like, Netflix's expectations of the show were, like, frankly, so unrealistic. Like they needed my show to be more successful than Queer Eye in order for it to even ever come back.

And if I would have known that my show that was a completely different concept and was seeing me in a completely different way was up against a show that's had like two decades and millions and millions of dollars in advertising given to it, I would have just listened to my intuition. It was so many good learning experiences, but also kind of soul-crushing. And when you learned that it was cancelled, I'm very interested in how people learn to

deal with rejection, because I often think that rejection takes you back to very, very early trauma. Yes. Did it remind you of rejections from your childhood? Yes. Can you talk a bit on that? Because I mentioned it briefly in the introduction, but that feeling of never quite fitting in, quote unquote. Yeah. I remember being in the shower a a couple days after like the final call and

like knowing for sure it wasn't coming back. And I just was so angry. And I was like, I just I wanted to be mad at my agents. I wanted to be mad at the network. I wanted to be mad. I just wanted to blame something. And I was like, who? And then I remember I was like washing my hair and then I like stopped. and I was like, girl, the only person you have to be disappointed with or upset with is you. Like your voice, your intuition, like told you clear as day, I heard it crystal clear. Like, and instead of having like faith in my ability

or faith that Netflix would come back and that the timing would be right eventually, I didn't have the faith or the trust to like, say no, and like, wait for the right time. I was like, well, I might never get it again. So it came from this like, fear-based place instead of this like, love-confidence-based place. It came from this like, place of force instead of trust.

And once I got that message, I was like, oh, I don't need to blame anybody. I don't need to. This isn't really like it is kind of a reflection on me, but it also doesn't have to be like a career definer. You got to executive produce something on Netflix that's major. Like not very many people get to say that they've done that. And like how cool. And I think for me, like, I just, I really do love podcasting. Like, I love the medium of it. I love the connection of it. I love the frequency of it. I love the community of it. And so my biggest thing was just to,

I was, like, just happy that I got to keep doing my podcast and that that didn't have to be the end of that road. to be the end of that road. Do you do much parenting of your inner child? I try, but sometimes we forget. Yes, and sometimes I find it so cringe. Yeah. But it's so necessary. Yes. So tell me a bit about childhood, Jonathan, and what they were like. Basically, like how I am now. But, you know, very like, into But, you know, very like into random things, like figure skating, gymnastics, rocks.

Very, very ADHD, and I wasn't diagnosed until I was 25, but I can see how in retrospect, like that ADHD and that neurodivergence, like, really kept me... Like, I think a lot of the bullying and a lot of the separation and anxiety, like, you know, stemmed from that. Because my hyper-focus and, like, hyperactivity on certain things was, like, overwhelming and still is. I was mildly bullied, I would say, at my first secondary school.

And a large part of my drive still, I think, is trying to prove those people wrong. Do you relate to that? No. Only because my drive really was like I never wanted to ask my family for money. That was like one big drive and then the other big drive is that I wanted to make the world better place for queer people. Yes. Once I got out of my hometown, that was like my fuck you to those people.

Like because I was like, I don't have to see you anymore. And that idea of not wanting to ask your family for financial help, does that apply to other areas of your life too? Like, an unwillingness to ask for help? Um, it used to a lot more. And I just did my first comedy special. It came out like a couple months ago.

It was called Fun and Sletty. And I do this bit in there about when I went to rehab and they teach you how to ask for help because asking for help is such a huge, a couple months ago, it was called Fun and Sletty. And I do this bit in there about when I went to rehab and they teach you how to ask for help because asking for help is such a huge, important part of recovery. And I very iconically, like they literally had all of us, this should have been one of my feels.

They had all of us put on blindfolds and you had to like go to this like rope maze in the middle of this forest and like blindfolded, get yourself out of this rope maze, like holding the ropes, you know? And they were like, you have an hour and then it blows up. But that was like a joke, the blowing up part. But it wasn't funny to me because I was crashing off meth and it was like the second day that I was there. So I was like, oh my God. But I was the only person that didn't get out of the rope maze

because there actually was no way out. You had to raise your hand and ask for help. But it never occurred to me to do that. So I was literally the only person in the freaking maze when the hour was over. So yes, asking for help did not come naturally to me. I felt really like I need like, you know, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, like don't ask for help. But now I think it's I've learned it really is so important to say like when you don't have it and when you need support and when you need help, to varying degrees of success. Yes. But yeah, I have gotten a lot better. That is such an extraordinary metaphor, that rope maze in the forest. Let's move on to your second failure. I'm so glad that you've chosen this one because

we don't often get business failures. And I think it's so important to open up the conversation around it. So the second one is learnings about launching and owning a business. Tell us why you chose this one. Oh my gosh. Well, largely because I'm so proud of JVN here and I'm so proud of our resilience and our ability to bounce back and find a way. So yeah, I launched JVN Hair in 2021 with our, with this company that doesn't exist anymore. It's like growth at any cost was their kind of mode. So it was like, they had really big budgets and it was like grow, grow, grow. And this is a parent company. So I'm a complete ignoramus when it comes to these stories. Yeah, so it's a parent company. So there's a few ways that you can do it. You can either

go and raise your own money to go out and do funding, which would be like, you would make a pitch deck and have a plan and then you would go raise money and then you would launch your business. But that felt really overwhelming to me and I was like, I don't know how to do that. So I went and found a parent company that you like, they either fund it or they raise the money. So I really wanted to make something

that was hair goal oriented versus hair type oriented. So I had like a really clear vision on like certain things that I wanted to do. So clever. And same thing with like my air dry cream. I was like, I wanted to make a curly cream that was multifunctional, insert recovery serum like, I mean, literally all of the names of our products, like I conceptualized, I named, but I didn't understand about like cogs, like that's cost of goods.

I didn't understand about like EBITDA. I didn't understand about like a P&L, like a profit and loss. I didn't understand margins. I didn't understand any of the business side. And I didn't want to, because I was like, I'm sure someone else will do that. Well, they didn't, because they ultimately went bankrupt.

And so, you know, and bankruptcy is like a really scary thing. It's like really not a fun thing to go through. I didn't know anything about that. But what I, and so then going from that to like, you know, you have to find a new partner and there's like IP involved, like the formulas, the, you know, intellectual property, you know, is owned by them, even though I made it.

Yes. So, and not only that, I didn't have control over the sale. So- This is a nightmare. Because with bankruptcy, it's like it's all court, like the court is in charge of the sales. So, like, I didn't even know if we would have a parent company. And then all of a sudden, you know, they're like, we'll find a partner for you.

Like your business is successful. Like, don't worry, we'll find a partner. To then all of a sudden, it's like, we might not find a partner. And time is running out. Like, do you have millions of dollars? And I was like, no, I have ADHD and an impulse spending problem. Like, I didn't save fucking money. Like, are you crazy? And you'd have to like show to the court that you can like sustain the business. And like, I'd been listening to these people that we would find a new home for months. So it was

like, Q3 and four of 2023 was like, oh my God, like, it was so stressful that I grew a second butthole. That I had to do an episode of my podcast about. Like, that is how stressed I was. I got an anal fistula. Like, literally never have had more pain. The strain.

Blistering. Like, I thought I was gonna die. It was so stressful. But we found a new parent company. And they're amazing. And, you know, what my concerns there were, were like, I really don't want our products, like, watered down. I know a lot of times when someone else comes in, like, it does become just different formulas. And so being a hairdresser, I'm like, I had like the quality of our formulas is just like, that's like what I just lose sleep about at night. But they were really

supportive with that. And they were like, we don't want to change what's working. But I think the biggest thing of like what I learned is like, when you're starting a business, I thought I was like, well, I want to have a whole line. Like I want to have like a complete line. I want to have a complete line. Well, if you start with, let's say, budgets of $5 million and 10 SKUs, in order to be successful and grow, you have to grow. Yes. So, that's a lot more pressure when you have $5 million invested in you than, let's say, if you had raised $50 know, 50,000 and

done one product with like three people. And then when you have, you know, direct to consumer business going, then you, you know, like start small and grow up, like it's called bootstrapping. So like, if you have like 50 grand and you invest that in your company, once you make that money back, and once you get successful, then you can like reinvest that money and you grow like this. But if you start with someone else's money and it's like, you know, a really big budget, they're gonna wanna see returns. And if you don't grow on their pace under that pressure,

like, that's not good. And if you don't understand how business works, that's also not good. Do you now know your figures? Yes. Yeah, I know like our margins. I know how much our products cost. I know how much the formulas are. I know how much it costs us to ship a product. I know how much it costs for us to store our products. I know the president of our company who I love so much, her name is Teresa,

and she has the patience and resilience of like, I don't even know a person to compare it to because it's so otherworldly. But she always jokes with me that it's like the business degree I never asked for. But I think that's like my other big takeaway is like, if you're going to start a business, you really can't pick and choose what you want to learn about. Like you either have to like earnestly learn all of it as well as you can, while also not micromanaging,

because you can't be stepping on people's toes and, like, getting in the way of things that you don't know anything about, but you do have to be intuitive and ask the right questions and know the right time to ask the right questions and be really patient but... firm at the same time, which is really difficult. And I've made so many mistakes in the process of it, but there was a time like last year when I didn't know about our future where like when I'd walk into my bathroom and like look at my

air dry cream on the counter, I would just like break down. And at the same time, I literally knew not to bring it back up, but Rolling Stone was coming. Like, because I knew for months that it was coming, like from November of 2023 until when it came out in March. Like, I mean, my friends, my family, like, were getting calls from their team. And it really makes me sad because I love Rolling Stone and I really like their reporting. And now every time I see their name, I'm like, ah! So my moral of that story is, don't ever have a bad day around someone who you haven't seen for six years.

Because they might harbor it, and they may ever get a hold of a journalist who really wants to sink their teeth into a story. Because that's the thing, the more clickbaity and outrageous something sounds, the more money it makes a publication. Like, so the worse they can make you look, the more they can, like, make something seem really scary and horrific, the better because the more eyeballs it gets, the more money they make in advertising.

So I do think, like, while journalism and investigative reporting is so important, and I don't knock that journalist because you got to make a name for yourself and like, slay Diva, but it does have real life implications. And it's partly why I really try not to like, say things like on TikTok, like you see a lot of celebrities like, breaking down and dancing in the streets for, like, all of these people's downfalls and getting so rich off of this cancel culture. And there is, like...

And it's not even only people that are, like, crazy successful. Like, even for me, like, I was, like, one wrong thing away from, like, losing everything. Like, JVN hair was compromised, our retailers were compromised, my podcast was compromised. It was really serious. And the words that the sources used in that article were intentional to create as much damage as possible.

Because who wants to work with an emotionally abusive nightmare with rage issues? You know? So that was like, it was just... All of that was happening, like, at the same time. Like, finding a new home for JVN here, dealing with the impending article, like, dealing with the casting changes in the show,

dealing with, like, all of the world kind of, like, just surviving that pylon was, like, really so crazy. I can't even imagine. I think it's so interesting to hear you talk about journalism, because I know that your heritage is journalism. You have a whole family lineage of journalists. And that idea of being one step away, I mean, who amongst us hasn't had a bad day where we've been ruder than we thought we were going to be

to the guy driving the taxi? Like it just, it must be such a crushing pressure. So you are at this point at the end of 2023, where it feels like you're having to question yourself in business and yourself as a person. And just not trusting myself at all. Because, like, I was like, I trusted, like, with getting curious, like, didn't work out.

JVN Hare, like, trusted the wrong people. Like, totally got just burned. And so, yeah, that was like, that was all really intense. But I think for JVN Hare, I'm just so proud of our team, totally got just burned. And so, yeah, that was like, that was all really intense, but I think for JV and here, I'm just so proud of our team, so resilient, like, stuck through so much, our president. Like, I'm just so proud of us. And now what we kind of have done is like,

sometimes you do have to like shrink to grow, and I didn't want to like throw the baby out with the bath water. Like, I wanted to like, this is my legacy. Like, I work so hard on these formulas. I work so hard on this concept and I just, I want to see it through and I really believe in our products. And so like a year later from like, cause our transition happened in January of 2024 to our new company.

So it's like a year and a couple months later, like we've had like successive growth in the last few months. Like our numbers are getting better. Like it just was really such an intense transition. And I'm just so proud of our team for sticking it out and having the wherewithal. I'm, like, so grateful for the people that, like, stuck with us. We love you. Your products are amazing. And yes, you should be proud of your team,

but you should be so proud of yourself for getting through this. Thank you. You really should. And thank you so much for talking about it. Oh, my God, I didn't... I wasn't gonna talk about that, you guys. And I just... But then it just, you know, but that's the other thing. Like, there are certain things that I just feel like such guilt and shame about that I felt like I'm afraid to talk about it. And also, like, the last time I talked about it on a podcast,

it was like, got all of this pickup in the press, which like that created this whole other like, just mental like, like, because it's just terrifying. Like having your humanity and like, whether you're a good or bad person be litigated in clickbait media is like not fun. Yes. And it's really not good for people. Well, also you quoted Brené Brown earlier, our queen Brené. Obsessed.

Totally obsessed. And she famously says that shame thrives in silence. The antidote to shame is sharing, is talking about it. And that's why it's important. And that feeling that you get of like, should I have done that? That's just shame trying to rear its head again. And so you're doing totally the right things

by talking about it in such an honest and beautiful way that invites other people to look at their shame and to deny it and to be able to let it go and be who they are in the fullness of their authenticity. I also just wanna say, can I say one other thing about it? So, like, on Queer Eye, specifically, like, there have been so many times where, like, I wish I was more patient and wish that I was calmer,

but I do think that there were times where, like, no one could know the pressure that I was under because there would be, like, 60 people on set, and I have, like, some people, like, very high up being like, this makeover has to be more dramatic, I need more change, but then other people would be like, we have to be done in 30 minutes, and you're on camera with all of these people,

like, swirling around you, doing mic checks, like, in the middle of foiling someone's hair. Like, there were times where I was like, these are chemicals. Like, I can't have this. Like, do not interrupt me again. Like, don't come around me again. Like, there's chemicals, like, right next to this lady's eye. Like, I'm talking like safety, OSHA.

Like, I got, like, please don't. There were times where I should have been better, and I should have been more patient, and I could have been more graceful and patient with it, but I just wish that I could have the people who I hurt, obviously, and those sources, like, I wish we could have talked about it, I wish I would have known,

because I would never intentionally hurt someone, but I also get the difference between intention and impact. So, if given the chance, I would have loved to have repaired those relationships. Like, not in front of the world on Rolling Stone. But if their intention was to heal the relationship, these people know where my email is. I've worked with them. But that wasn't the intention.

The intention was to hurt me as bad as possible. And I think that sucks. Because I also think there was a lot of like transmisogyny wrapped up in that. Because I've seen other people act much worse that never would have that feedback. But they're not them presenting queer people. And I don't mean my castmates, I just mean people in the industry. Do you feel like you've made an effort to change your own impact now when you're filming? Yes. Okay. And were your castmates supportive?

Yes. It brought us all closer. I love watching the dynamic between you on screen. They're so cute and funny. Yeah. That actually seamless link brings us on to your final failure, which is to do with Queer Eye, and it's a specific makeover. Oh, my God, I still think about it. I loosely go over it. I'm so intrigued, because I know that I rewatched this episode, but I remembered it, but I'm so intrigued why you've chosen it.

It's Ted Terry. It's the only episode I've ever, like, left crying. Like, I left that salon, not to his face, but when he left, I broke down. You did see me down. In that green t-shirt, I still remember what I was wearing. Like, I broke down. Okay, so why, Max? So it's Ted Terry.

He's a local mayor, and it's season two of Queer Eye, and he has a beard. Yes. Okay, so tell us the story. Ted Terry was like, we hadn't done very many episodes. And Ted, if you're watching, I was like with his beard, it was his resistance beard. This was like 2017, Trump had just been in and he was like growing that beard out since Trump had been in office. And I thought it was so cute. I was like, he's giving me like Woodsmanman, like, mayor man, like, cute ass,

like, fucking beard. I was very sexually attracted to his beard. And I was like, it just needs a little shaping. But production was like, this is a makeover show. You can't do like these little tiny beard trims. Like, we wanna see like a bigger makeover. And I was like, you guys, we aren't doing like, makeovers for the sake of it.

Like, they have to be hotter. Like, they need to look better after the makeover. You don was like, you guys, we aren't doing like makeovers for the sake of it. Like they have to be hotter. Like they need to look better after the makeover. You don't want it to look worse. And so the whole time I was cutting his hair, they like, I kept having people coming out and be like, oh, like we need to talk to you. And I like would get taken in the back. And I had like all of these folks like pressuring me to like do this cut. And I was like, I really felt dedicated to my creative vision

and like wanted to realize my creative vision. But then once I was done, they're like, it's not enough. Like the beer goes like cut his beard off. So I was like, oh, my God. So then I cut the beard off. But then his haircut, like with no beard, like I was like, let me do a little bit more. But the next thing I knew, like it wasn't blending, the top wasn't right, like it didn't look right together.

And then like, I felt like they needed to leave and I'd like taken too long. And I just like, I wasn't happy with it. Like it wasn't how I wanted it to look. And I was like definitively, I think of all of my work on all of my body of Queer Eye, it's the only time where the hero looked worse when I was done.

And that just, I remember like watching his playback, like in the loft and just being like, ugh, like it's not cuter. And he's had his beard forever since, thank God, good call. Um, but yeah, just that was just, ugh, it's just like, like, being overruled on your department is just never fun. It happened one other time, and after I left, they had him cut his beard off, which, like, trauma.

And then after that, I was like, that's never gonna happen again. And then thank God, it never has. So now we just, like, stick with my vision. And has Ted Terry been in touch since? Well, I follow him, and he's, and he's, now he's a... What's his new title? He's not a mayor anymore. He's like on the, he's like a commissioner.

Okay. Yes, but his beard is back, thank God. And he's so cute. I just think he's such a nice man. So nice. And does he know that you regret the makeover that you gave him? I think I slid in. I'm not sure. I could, let me look. Oh my gosh. I think. Oh, I love it.

I think we have had this talk, but I'm gonna look really quick. Because he actually liked his makeover, or seemed to, did he? Well, I think. Maybe it was just edited. Yeah. Well, I mean, he liked it to my face.

Yeah. He's commissioner Ted Terry, honey. Commissioner. The beard is very back, and it's so cute. I mean, he just looks good with a beard. He looks great. He looks great with a beard. Yeah, but that's a trimmed beard.

It was. Yes, it was a little, it was a little bigger. It was quite survivalist. Oh my God. Oh wait, standby. Are you texting him right now? Yes. Okay, let's just end the video.

Okay. Okay. Ted, honey, I'm with Elizabeth. We're on the How to Fail podcast and I'm just giving you a heads up. I love you so much. But I was talking about me cutting off your beard is like one of my biggest queer I fails

because I just think you're so cute with a beard. And I'm so proud of you. And I'm so proud of you. And I am so happy that you are just giving it to them in Georgia and I just love you and you're the best. Bye. Yes. Oh my, Pat, look at that.

Real time. Did it. Real time. Let me know what happens. I will. Thank you. Beards, wait, now I've got off track. Social media, that's what I wanted to ask you about. So we've spoken a lot through our conversation about that idea of knowing yourself and trusting

your instinct. How difficult is that to do when you have such a huge following on social media? It's hard. Um, it's really hard. And I think... Like, this is something where I really like, just a hat's off to Mel Robbins, like, she's really helped me. Like... I really feel like the bigger my career got, the less willing I was to, like, put myself out there

on social media, believe it or not. Um, and I feel like I kind of pulled back. And ever since her book and like her let them theory, it's like, I want to try to stay more true to myself and like let people think like what they're gonna think. Because I can't control a reaction, and it's not my job to control your reaction. But it is my job to tell my truth and to share

what I've experienced. Like with kindness, you know, as much as I can. So, which I totally fall short on sometimes, but I think that's what I'm trying to do. And I'm trying to lean more into that. Okay. Yes. And that theory has really changed the world, hasn't it? Yeah, she is doing it. Yeah. Final question. I've loved this chat so much. Me too. I feel like I talked a lot, I'm sorry. Never apologize for that. You talked just the right amount.

Okay. And I'm thrilled that you did. As an, you know this, as an interviewer, it's so wonderful when someone talks and opens up. I just, I feel very safe here. I'm so happy to hear that. That's the thing that I most want people to feel when they come into this pink womb.

Yes, it's a pink womb room. I love it. I want to ask you if you had the chance, what you'd do to Donald Trump's hair. I mean, maybe just give him a full Yosified diva lace front. Just give him like a full on drag experience so that he could not be so scared of us and be like, oh my god, this is kind of amazing. I mean, he does already kind of do his own version of drag, but let's give him like a really thick, nice wig and just really give him some contour. And maybe he'll not be so afraid of like gender fluid and gender queer people. Mic drop moment. Thank you so much, Jonathan Van Ness, for coming on How To Fail.

Thanks for having me, honey. And you're staying for F Van Ness, for coming on How to Fail. Thanks for having me, Ani. And you're staying for Failing with Friends. You're going to answer some listener failures and questions. I can't wait to get into it. Thanks, Ani. Thank you. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth

Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.