How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Mae Martin - 'Everything I do is about proving those high school bullies wrong.'

Episode Date: April 9, 2025

Over on Failing with Friends this week, Mae Martin talks about self-care, how to stop pushing people away and we tackle a listener’s failure to be messy in their twenties. To hear Mae Martin's brilliant advice, join our community of subscribers: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Canadian comedian, writer, producer and singer/songwriter Mae Martin joins Elizabeth to talk about making music, the importance of pronouns and being diagnosed with ADHD. We also discuss their hit Netflix show Feel Good, going to rehab as a teenager and their borderline addiction to escape rooms (they've done 50 in three years...absolutely zero judgement here). Mae Martin’s new album ‘I’m a TV’ is out now. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole & Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello lovely How to Fail listeners and viewers. This is just to let you know that if you want a peek behind the curtain to find out the last time that Kate Winslet spoke to Leo, or how much sex Vogue Williams considers to be normal, then you can listen to my subscriber series. Just follow the link in the show notes and we will see you there. Welcome to How To Fail. And for those that are new around here, this is the podcast where I talk to my guests about three failures in their life and what they've learned along the way. Please do follow this podcast because it really helps other people find us. And please do share it with all of your friends and family members and even people you don't like. We're not fussy. Thank you so much

for being here. And you think you've outgrown it and you're so above it all and then you notice that your recent searches on Instagram of people's profiles are all your enemies and your exes. You're like, why am I still looking at these people? I sort of didn't realize that most of my life, every time someone said she, which is a thousand times a day, probably, two thousand, it's like someone pointing out the thing about yourself that makes you feel confused or uncomfortable. So it's like, like if you were balding and someone every day was like bald, bald, bald, bald, you know, it's just nice to have a break from it. Like I don't really feel safe in a men's bathroom, but I don't particularly want to be in the

women's change room either. So yeah, I'm like, I get it. I don't know either. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Now, if you're an entrepreneur like me or living the creative freelance life, then Squarespace is the all-in-one platform to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or nurturing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a stunning website and engage with your audience.

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Head to squarespace.com forward slash fail10 for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code FAIL10 to save 10% off your first purchase of a website and domain. My guest today is Mae Martin, an award-winning comedian, producer, actor, podcast host, and singer-songwriter. They were born in Toronto, Canada, the younger child of former hippies Wendy and James, who raised their children in a home filled with the recordings of British and American comedy classics. Martin saw their first comedy show aged 11, and in their words, felt

absolutely on fire. Dropping out of high school, they started on the stand-up circuit as a teenager before moving to the UK in their 20s, eventually co-creating and starring in the semi-autobiographical Netflix show Feel Good. Martin's stand-up tours, Us in 2015 about sex and gender identity and Dope in 2017 about addiction, were both turned into BBC radio shows. Now they're set to showrun and star in a forthcoming Netflix thriller series, Wayward, alongside promoting their first ever album, I'm a TV. The album entirely written by them is an indie rock expression

of millennial nostalgia and a total delight to listen to. A comedian, a writer, and now a musician, Martin is a creative powerhouse. If there is one thing that connects all of their work, it is perhaps an acceptance that creativity and self-fulfillment comes in many forms, a desire for us to be given space to figure things out, and a generosity of spirit that enables Martin's audience to see ourselves in their art. I'm a big advocate of ambiguity, Martin has said in the past, of the idea that not knowing is fine.

May Martin, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this so much. So have I. And thank you for being here, because I know that you are fresh off the stage. Yeah, I'm a little ropey. Yeah, I feel underdressed and under-slept, but I'm... No, you're perfect.

Thank you. So are you. And I wanted to ask you about that idea of ambiguity because it's something that I have only recently understood underpins great creativity. That idea that the void is fertile, that confusion can actually be so creative. Yes. Does that resonate with you? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I think maybe not being attached to a particular outcome and being more open to the process, maybe. And I just find in general in life there's so much nuance and grey area and things aren't as black and white as it's tempting to make them. We're so desperate to do that for our brains to organize things properly and know where we stand on everything, but it's hard to.

Let's talk about AIMA TV. Does it feel particularly vulnerable sharing your music in this way for the first time? I do have real imposter syndrome about it. I think my biggest fear is the opinions of my peers and musicians because it's really new for me and I feel like I'm learning a whole new language. But I made the album not intending to release it, and I think that was really helpful because I just did it as a, I've always wanted to go into a studio with friends and I'd been writing by myself. So I did it as a passion project and then when it felt like it was a cohesive thing

and it felt like it was authentically me, then I thought I may as well put it out. And how does performing music differ from performing stand-up? I thought there would be a lot more crossover because I've been doing stand-up 25 years. I thought it'll be fine, but it's hugely different. Yeah, it's a totally different energetic exchange with the audience. And I'm so used to, I mean, my comedy is quite personal and confessional.

But if you're going to take people to an emotional place with comedy, you have to trust that you're going to be able to bring them out of it and break the tension and undercut it or self-deprecate. And so it's nice to not have to do, and undercut it or self-deprecate. And so there's, it's nice to not have to do that and to let people sit in that tension and people seem really hungry for it to go to that emotional place. So that's been really nice. And there's so much tech, there's like pedal boards and in-ear, so I'm learning all that. It's crazy. I want to do that annoying thing. Please. Okay, great.

That interviews tend to do where they listen to music and to lyrics and then they ask you directly whether it pertains to your actual life. Great. So one of my favorite, actually, I love Big Bear. Oh, great. I love that track because I've never been to Big Bear and maybe wanted to go. Oh man, it's beautiful there. Yeah. The song, I Love You So Much, which is about throwing a bomb into the life of a married woman.

Right. May Martin, have you done that? No, not a married woman. I think for me, that song, hopefully it's relatable, is about, well, you were talking about ambiguity and I always think about, I mean, I'm a very romantic person. And I think it's crazy that we categorize all our relationships into platonic or romantic because there is so much gray area, at least for me, I have lots of friends who you think, oh, maybe in another life, this would have been a thing or, or, you know,

you can be sort of in love with your friends. So it's about, it's kind of about that. Okay. Yeah. Then people get back up. Yeah. Which is one of the most moving tracks. That's one of the most directly personal, isn't it? Like the lyrics kind of, yeah.

Yes. Well, if it is, then I'm really sorry for your loss. Thanks. Because it's about a friend who reading between the lines took his own life. Yeah, yeah. I've had a couple of, Thanks. Because it's about a friend who reading between the lines took his own life. Yeah, yeah. I've had a couple of, I worry a lot about my straight male friends mainly and men's

mental health and I have, just because that's been my experience, I've had a couple of friends who've really struggled and taken their lives. So yeah, that one was about my friend, Jesse, and then I had a really close friend, David. And it's a nice one to play live because people really, those moments where you really feel people, you know, settle into it. Yeah. Can I ask you a bit more about why you worry about your straight male friends? Only because when I first started this podcast in 2018, almost every straight man that I approached to be part of the first season said, I don't think I failed. So- Are you serious?

Yeah, totally serious. Wow. But that's part of the problem because they're bottling it all up. Because of course they have and they're terrified of failing. I'm making huge generalizations, but I just have a lot of... I mean, most of my best friends are straight men. I don't know if that's because I've been in the comedy scene for so long, but yeah, I just, I definitely recognize that cultural pressure to, yeah, not open up and the stigma around men being soft and sweet and yeah, so I empathize. I'm sure that you offer them the space that they need. Give them a cuddle.

Yes. Definitely. Final question before we get onto your failures. You love escape rooms. Talk to me. OK. Yes. It's all I love.

That's so interesting because I find them panic inducing. Oh, really? OK. And I think it's because my default for many years was to attempt to be a perfectionist people pleaser. Right. So there's so much pressure that I put on myself.

To beat the record and get out and yeah. And I'm terrible at them. And I find that difficult to cope with. I'm not great at them, but I do them obsessively. I think I've done, I've been in LA three years and I just, I have an app where you mark the ones you've done and I've done over 50 in three years. I'm so into it. I don't know if that's a red flag about

my personality, but I find it really gratifying that you have one clear task, escape the room, you know, and life goes on pause and you can just, it's very linear. I really like it. I like any kind of immersive experience. Even immersive theater? Yeah. Wow. I love it. Okay. I'm doing one on Saturday. I hate saying the name of it. I'm doing Yumi Bum Bum Theater. Yumi Bum Bum Theater. Yes. And I hate saying it, but. That is actually meant to be amazing and life-changing. That's what I hear.

Yeah. Okay. Your first failure is failing out of high school. Yeah. So, tell us about this. It's like we were saying about being attached to a certain outcome. I mean, school is a really, there's a really clear track, you know, it's pass and fail. And I always struggled. I remember just sitting even in primary school and watching the clock and feeling like my life was slipping away and being like, this is torture. I would always ask to go pee during every class and then just milk the time and walk around really slowly in the halls. And then yeah, in high school, I discovered comedy, first of all, and I started doing gigs a lot of nights a week. And so I was very tired. And yeah, I got, I remember

getting like 13% in math one year and it just slowly started to, yeah, become impossible. So then I sort of dropped out, but I would have failed out imminently, I think. And it was, yeah, it was daunting because, yeah, I didn't have it. There aren't a lot of models of what that looks like. And it felt really seismic in the moment. Tell me a little bit about your childhood up to that point, because I noticed there were two points in the introduction where you laughed in a sweet way. And one of them was when I described your parents as hippies.

Yeah, they're very creative people. And I guess it was because of them that I thought maybe there was an option to do unorthodox things or to take a different route. And my dad's a freelance writer and my mom is really creative as well. And so they would do wild things like, you put all our stuff in storage and we'd go on a six-month driving trip across Europe and things like that when I was a kid, and they'd take us out of school.

And that set me up to kind of make my own path. But they were definitely pissed when I got into comedy and I got heavily into drugs in my teens and that was a big part of why school was not as fun. I want to come back to that. The road trips across Europe, obviously there's part of me that I'm listening to where I'm thinking, oh, how amazing. And there's also part of me which thinks, is that really dislocating?

I mean, literally. Maybe. I mean, I don't remember that. I was four, my brother was eight, or maybe I was five. And I remember it really just being incredible. And we were in this little Honda and just the four of us. And yeah, I probably learned more on that trip than I did in school. Yeah. But they, but they were spontaneous and so maybe there was a bit of chaos there, but I liked that. I remember my mom, I always felt like there were some mornings where I'd wake up and say, I just really don't want to go to school and

she'd say, okay, let's go do something fun. And I really respect that. So was it a creative household where you were encouraged to express your creativity as well? Definitely. Yeah. What's the earliest thing that you can remember making? Well, I used to, as a kid, play music with my dad a lot. I remember making tape recordings of us doing duets to Bette Midler songs and things like that. My dad used to be an actor and he was in Jesus Christ Superstar and things. And so they had a really deep appreciation for the arts and things like that. I'm really

aware of my privilege in that area and that they would take me to museums and talk to me. I'm super lucky. And they took you to your first ever stand-up comedy show, age 11. What was it about that experience that hit you so deeply? I was already obsessed. I guess they had been playing a lot of vinyl records in the house of George Carlin and Steve Martin. And I was sort of bewitched by it. And I begged to go for years. And then finally, on my 11th birthday, I went and it was just a really,

I felt like that must be the coolest life on earth. And I was more interested in like the green room activities. What was going on with these people and were they all dating each other and were they staying after the show and talking and making each other laugh? And I wanted to be part of that community, I think. And I was all dressed up in the front row

and the headliner got me on stage because everyone was commenting that there was a child there. This is when you could smoke inside too. So it was a really adult environment. And I just loved it. Yeah. What were you wearing? I was wearing tartan trousers, Elizabeth,

and a suede vest and a little button-up shirt and I had short hair and I looked like a ventriloquist dummy. And so that's what he did. He made me his ventriloquist dummy and I got a laugh and I loved it. Yes, that must have felt incredible. It really did. Yeah. I read somewhere that you said about that show, I just couldn't believe there was this environment where people were being applauded for the weirdest things about themselves. Yes, yeah I think I always felt like a bit of a misfit and I'm sure and I think

we'll get into it that but yeah I really liked how people would get up and make fun of themselves in a way that at school, you know, if someone said something like that to you, you'd be crushed. But if you say it first to an audience and get a laugh and take ownership of it, that's so empowering. And it's just completely twists everything, especially during puberty for me. And I had braces and acne and I don't know what possessed me to get on stage, but it really helped. Yeah. So school, by contrast, was not a place where you felt welcome or included, I guess. Yeah.

I went to grade one to nine, I went to an all-girls school and I just felt like another species to everyone. And like, I felt like everyone had been born knowing what lip gloss to wear and what stationery to use. And I was just trying to catch up and fit in. And then I went to high school and didn't really do sports or anything like that. So I was confused. So were you bullied?

Not really. Around puberty, there was one year and then I got in trouble because I use people's full names and stand up sometimes and then I got in trouble. But I talked about being bullied by someone and then I remember them calling me into the... Because maybe I was 15 or 14 and used this girl's name on television and then they had a big meeting at the school about it and I thought, I've got to stop using full names. Yeah, but not really heavily bullied. It was just around puberty. That's kind of amazing revenge. It is. I mean, there's an aspect of everything I do that's about proving those high school bullies wrong, you know?

Me too. Don't you think? 100%. I know. And you think you've outgrown it and you're so above it all. And then you notice that your recent searches on Instagram of people's profiles are all your enemies and your exes. You're like, why am I still looking at these people? But fuel is fuel. Fuel is fuel. It's great. That grudge will fuel me for a lifetime. 100%. Yeah. Do you hold grudges? Yes, I do, I think. But I'm trying not to. Okay. Yeah. I massively do.

Do you? Okay. Just a warning. Just a warning sign to you, mate. I won't cross you ever. Okay. Talk to me about the drugs, okay? And treat me like a total ignoramus because I am one. Okay. The only drug I've ever taken other than pot is MDMA once. Okay. And what I loved about it was that it kept me awake.

Right. 7am. I was loving life. Really? Yeah. That makes sense. How did you get into drugs and what were they like for you? Well, now retrospectively I can see I was looking for a kind of trap door out of the discomfort of looking for a kind of trap door out of the discomfort of being in my body and my brain. But at the time, I started smoking weed with regular kids at school. And then as soon as I started doing comedy, I was in a really adult environment. And at that time in Toronto, there was a lot of coke around. I don't know if there is now, I hope not, but yeah, I started doing, I was dating

a much older guy and trying to be cool and yeah, stimulants were really, I mean, I think now I'm like, I think I have ADHD and I've read a lot about how often people self-medicate with stimulants and it kind of puts you in the room and you suddenly feel like your feet are on the ground. And so maybe that was an aspect of it, but I really, yeah, it got quite dark. Yeah. How dark? Like I really dark, particularly with cocaine. I think it's such an insidious and powerful an insidious and powerful drug and I just was so little and it made me feel so confident and must have been giving me something that I wasn't feeling in my regular life. But yeah, that drug in particular, I think can really warp your everything, your moral compass, everything that just becomes the priority in life. And so yeah, everything was about that. And I had disposable income

because of comedy. And I think no 15 year old should have cash. It's not good. But then I went to rehab for nine months and when I was about 19 and, and yeah, it was pretty amazing that experience. Yeah. MS. I mean, it was the early 2000s, I think there was a lot less fluency around mental health and a lot more focus on the drug itself and like it must be just pure hedonism that's driving you to do this. And so I think, yeah, there's a lot of tough love and I sort of got kicked out or left

home when I was about 16 and I think maybe it would be different now. But yeah, so there are different tactics, but really anyone with an addiction problem, I think it has to come from you ultimately. How are things with your parents now? It sounds like you have a really good relationship. I love them so much. It's great. Yeah, we're really close now. I mean, they live in Canada and I'm in LA, but we talk all the time and yeah, I think we both have a lot of empathy. You mentioned that you think you have ADHD. Yeah.

Have you ever gone through the process of diagnosis? I have, and I've been diagnosed with it. I don't know why I'm sheepish about it. I think it's because I... How old are you? 46. Are you? Okay. So did you...

Growing up, it was kind of... My parents didn't think it was real and it was kind of like bad parenting was what we thought and it was really... It felt like a made up thing. And so yeah, I do have it and I've been diagnosed, but I don't know, I always feel like if I did, I just trick the doctor into diagnosing me. I think a lot of people have that fear. That's what he said. The doctor said, I'm sure you think you've tricked me into diagnosing you. I was like, yeah, I do. But how interesting. Yeah. Are you given your history

with substance abuse? Yeah. Are you medicated for ADHD or is that something that... I am a bit, yeah. And it's been pretty life changing. And in a way, it's kind of eradicated any lingering urge to seek out a stimulant because it's really measured. And yeah, that part of my brain is satisfied, I guess. Right, fat and escape rooms.

But I'm wary of it. I know it's easy to become dependent on it and I definitely know people, especially in the States, who are really over-medicated and yeah, so I'm careful with it. Well, I know that the definition of addiction you prefer is the Gabo Mate, former guest on How to Fail. Was he? Yes. What a guy. I know that the definition of addiction you prefer is the Gabbo Mate, former guest on How to Fail. Was he? Yes. What a guy. I know.

Incredible. Sonorous voice and he's a real presence, isn't he? Yes. Would you mind reminding us what that definition is? Sure. If I can remember it. Well, he says an addiction is anything that you crave and you do compulsively despite it having negative consequences. So it's about

that, those negative consequences in your life. Yeah. And I think he, and he also says that it's very often, no, no, no, that's totally spot on. Just given everything we've been talking about, he also says it can be a trauma response. Right. Right. I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And his work has been so mind-expanding for me because it was the first time that I've connected other addictive behaviors in my life. And I really thought that addiction was just something that drug addicts had, and it was all to do with these very addictive substances. And, you know, that once you're hooked, you're hooked. And then when I broaden the definition and thought about, you know, relationships, and

so many of us have had that experience where you know someone's bad for you or that you're not happy, but you can't stop fighting for it to, you know, or texting them or our phones or all these self-soothing behaviours that we all do. That was really helpful for me to see that and notice it in other areas and take a more holistic look at my life. You use a lot of this hard-won wisdom in Feel Good, which I loved. Thanks. I know so many people who listen are huge fans of it as well.

Oh, great. And there's one scene that always sticks in my mind and makes me laugh still thinking about it. Hit me. Where the character has gone to an NA meeting and decided it's not for them. And then goes with someone who becomes their sponsor to a coffee shop. Yes. And it's just such a tiny thing.

But in the backdrop, you see at the end of the scene, there's like 800 coffee cups on the table. Thank you for noticing that. Oh, I loved it so much. Oh, that's so nice. Oh, thanks for noticing. I suppose I had a question about feel good, which is how much co-creating that with Jo Hampson was helpful to you in discovering yourself?

So much of it. And similar to the album maybe, writing that first season, I'd never made television, I'd never acted before. And so I wrote it not worrying about any of that and not thinking, I'll have to actually act these scenes. I just wrote it not knowing what it would be like. And then it was quite harrowing in a really rewarding way, but it was so personal. And so yeah, it was definitely therapeutic. And I was sort of writing this character of myself who was really struggling with gender identity and things like that. And then the first season ended and we knew we were doing the second season that would be the last season and we knew, okay,

we've got to tie this up. And so I guess the character should come to some conclusion about who they are and their addiction. And then that made me have to really introspect and think, okay, yeah, well, how do I feel? Yeah, I was really figuring it out in real time. And the interesting thing is, is that I know that in TV, you are constantly encouraged to have a satisfying narrative arc with a very definite end point. But of course, that is not your life. No, I wish it was to tie everything up neatly like that. Yeah. The thing that did change was the pronouns of the character between the first and the second that. Yeah. The thing that did change was the pronouns of the character between the first and the second season. Yeah. And again, literally in real time, telling the crew on set,

I actually, that would be nice if you guys would, like it was really happening. And I was so lucky to be making it with Charlotte Richie, who is a friend and she was just so, such an amazing support emotionally in a way that she probably shouldn't have had to be just as a co-star. But we did a lot of talking and processing and it was really, really nice. When I first launched this podcast, I really struggled to connect with advertisers. In fact, my first ever sponsor was a

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the app today and family proof your family with Life360. That brings us onto your second failure. Yes, yeah. I am so glad you're going to talk about this and you put it in this way. Failing at being a boy or a girl. Yeah, yeah well that's a line in Feel Good as well in season one I said and I felt that way and One, I said and I felt that way and do sometimes still feel that way. Because I'm non-binary and I feel really in the middle of that gender spectrum, and so because we live in such a gendered, binary society that's been so built around those

things, of course I grew up feeling like I was failing at being a girl and failing at being a boy until I was 35 or something. It felt like a huge failure going on in the back of my head. You say 35, you're now 37. Yeah. So you had two years of having figured most of it out, would that be fair enough to say? Yeah, I think it's an evolving thing, but yeah. How does that feel? How have the last two years felt?

Just amazing. It's really nice to be able to, I mean, sometimes I think, oh, would it be more helpful not to talk about these things, because it's not the most interesting thing about me. But then, in today's climate with everything going on in the States, it feels like a really nice and concrete thing I can point to that I am just so much happier. And like this album, for instance, I don't think I would have had the confidence to be vulnerable like that and stand on stage, even be vulnerable like that and stand on stage, even physically being, taking up that space and being seen like that. So now that I feel like, yeah, I'm presenting the way I have always felt, it's just been, it's just a very happy, positive thing. So it's nice to highlight

like that's really the only agenda that's being pushed here is people just being, being happier. I love and appreciate and respect that you're talking about it. Thank you. I get asked a lot to go on the news and debate a Republican about whether trans people are real. Yeah, exactly. And so I try to stay out of combat of things like that. But it is not, yeah, I think it's important to talk about. You've described feeling like a misfit at school.

Yeah. But I'm aware how much of it is social conditioning. So. Totally. Yeah. Where's the failure? Because do you actually feel the failure is yours or do you feel it's society's? No, I guess I'm referring to the lifelong feeling I had until so recently really. And now once you start pulling that thread, I know it feels like a really recent thing that we're questioning this paradigm around gender, but actually to have such a binary definition of gender is the

recent colonial thing. And really for thousands of years, there's been so much nuance. But I think growing up, maybe because I internalized all those more, well, all the stereotypes of how women should be and how men should be, And I'm not either of those things. Yeah. There was one anecdote that I read about where you were in a school changing room. Do you remember this? Yeah. Would you mind sharing that? It's when you had the towel around your waist. Oh yeah, it was a public pool actually, which makes it even more galling because it was,

yeah, maybe I was eight or something. I was in the changing room of this pool and I always would wear my towel around my waist like Ferris Bueller when he comes out of the shower. That- Great reference. Yes. That was my specific thing I was trying to emulate. I just had this woman in her 40s just screaming at me that I was in the wrong bathroom. Then I ran out because I was on my own and my

dad was in the men's bathroom. And then I just remember waiting for him to come out. I'm sitting soaking wet, covered in chlorine in my towel, like in between the two bathrooms. And it was just such a... Yeah. I feel that still in change rooms. I don't know which one to use. And if I get challenged by women in the women's change room, I kind of want to engage in the conversation of like, well, where do you think I should go? Because I don't really want to be around a bunch of dicks. And can I say that? I'm 100% gay. Okay, great. Yeah. I don't really feel safe in a men's bathroom, but I don't particularly want to

be in the women's change room either. So yeah, I'm like, I get it. I don't really feel safe in a men's bathroom, but I don't particularly want to be in the women's change room either. So yeah, I'm like, I get it. I don't know either. Yeah. Does that still happen to you? Yeah, all the time. Yeah.

I mean less because I, I know where I'm safe and I go to those places, but yeah. Yeah. You've had to have those conversations with... No, I have that in my head. Okay. Yeah. That conversation and I know exactly what I would say. But no, it's more like looks or people whispering or people saying you're in the wrong change room and I kind of just say, no, I'm not and keep going.

But I just think it's tough for, I've got a pretty thick skin. But you're introverted, aren't you? Would you classify yourself as introverted? Yeah. I don't know. I really, I think I love attention as well. Yeah. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. Really? Yeah. I think I'm an introvert.

Yeah. I'd rather go on stage and do a live show than go to a party with no definite end. Oh, me too. Yeah. At parties, I like to have an activity or a, I don't know, I wrote this list of rapid fire questions. I wrote like hundreds of them that are really fun and I really enjoy doing those because people like it. I don't love small talk. I like to get deep. Yeah. Do you actually have a physical list that you take out?

Yes. It's in a notebook and then I also took pictures of it. So it's on my phone and it's yes or no and either or and they're rapid fire. I'll do them for you one time. Should I do a couple? Yes. Okay. So it's just, there's no wrong answer. Okay, fine. It's just what does your essence respond to? So it will warm up. So is that one of the questions? No, no, no. Cheese. Cheese. Okay. Tortoise or zebra? Tortoise. Feather or snow? Snow. Window or aisle? Isle. Forgiveness or blissful ignorance? Blissful ignorance.

Yeah, nice. Yeah. Tom Hanks or Tom Cruise? Tom Hanks. Always the Hanks. I love these. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Let's just do a whole podcast of this. I have hundreds of them. They're really fun. If you have any to add, I'll add them to the list. What about you? Tom Hanks or Tom Cruise? Well, I'm going to say Tom Cruise. Okay. I don't know. When he cries, I cry in any film.

He is a great movie star. God, he's one of the last. And he's an amazing runner on film. That run. I had to run in this recent show. That should have been one of my failures. They had to stop and say, you're going to want us to give you this feedback. And you are doing very badly. And I had to keep my arms reflailing. I had to keep my arms. He keeps his arms very tight. Yes. Is this wayward, the new show?

Yes. Yes. Which sounds fascinating and is based loosely around the troubled teen industry, which I now know about because of Paris Hilton. How much of your own troubled adolescence did you put into this show? Loads, yeah. I feel like I write a lot about adults who are processing their teens and this was nice to dive into it. I had a best friend when I was 16, it was just a pothead really, and she got sent to one of these residential

troubled teen institutes where they kind of kidnap you in the night and handcuff you and take you there. And it's this whole thing. And she was gone for two years and ended up escaping and hitchhiking and seriously dangerous. And when she got back, her stories were so wild. It sounded so theatrical, almost. The therapy they were doing, like you have to dig your own grave and stand in it overnight and things like that and sleep deprivation. And so I got really interested in that industry and it's so unregulated and its roots are all in cults and self-help cults in the 70s. And so I sort of, it's a genre show where I've hung this sort of cult thriller over this teen troubled teen Institute.

Yeah. It sounds brilliant. Thanks. I hope so. Not that this is likely, but if anyone is listening and doesn't understand the importance of pronouns, please you explain why it's important to you? I mean, it's not as important to me as it is to some of my friends. My worst thing would

be that it's a barrier to connecting with know, I have friends of my parents and things who I'm like, I'm not, I'd rather just have a nice conversation and not have, you know, because people get so stressed about it. But for me, it's just, I don't know, it just feels more accurate. Like, yeah, they, it was an adjustment for me too, though, because I felt sheepish about it because yeah, I'm not Gen Z. But then the more I used it, it just feels so much more right than she. It's just like if you said, I hate the name Elizabeth, I'd rather you call me Liz. Yeah. Actually, it's the other way around with me.

You hate Liz. Yeah. Actually, it's the other way around with me. You hate Liz. Yeah. But I think you're so right. I think language is profoundly important because language is the first port of call in expressing what we see as the world to each other. Absolutely. From Simone de Beauvoir onwards, we have been taught not to authorize through language. Yes, yeah. And so for me, it's crucial. As long as people give it a go, that's really nice. And it's been, I mean, I sort of didn't realize that most of my life, every time someone said

she, which is a thousand times a day, probably 2000, It's like someone pointing out the thing about yourself that makes you feel confused or uncomfortable. So it's like, if you were balding and someone every day was like bald, bald, bald, bald, you know, it's just nice to have a break from it. Yeah. How are your parents getting on with it? They're coming around.

They're practicing, they're good, written down, they're in emails and things and they're great and they're really trying. Yeah. Yeah. They said to me, we see you that way. We see you as that they sort of always have, but it's just an adjustment. So I think as long as people don't feel afraid to fail, then it's all good. Oh, actual final thing I wanted to ask you about this. Because you started stand-up from

such a young age, you were being written about and presented in a certain way. Was that hard for you because other people made assumptions? It's just sort of interesting. Yeah, the first thing that was ever written about my stand-up was, the headline was introducing Gay May. And I truly didn't even know I was queer at the time. I was like, oh, I guess that's how I'm coming across. And yeah, so yeah. And it's often frustrating that it's a constant prefix,

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Get tickets now. Moving on to your final failure. Oh yeah, okay. This is failing at standup. You say that you bombed at the Edinburgh Fringe at 25 at 4 a.m. It's very specific. Yes, I'm thinking of a particular... Okay, tell me about this particular moment.

A haunting incident, yeah. Let me just rake over your trauma. Yes. It must have been my second Edinburgh Fringe and I was 25 and they had some 24-hour comedy marathon, which is a terrible idea. It's Edinburgh, the audience was wasted, and they've been sitting for hours watching comedian after comedian. Really, what they want and were responding to

was big, confident, loud comics. That's what I would have wanted as well. Then I came out with my guitar. I was doing musical comedy and I was wearing the skinniest jeans, like they've been spray painted on and just quivering and so nervous. And I think it was televised or it was filmed or something, so the pressure was on. And somebody I had a crush on was there and comedians I recognized. And as I approached

the mic, before I even said anything, someone in the audience, they were dead silent. The clapping didn't last till I got to the mic. Then someone said, what are you doing last? I suddenly thought, I don't know what I'm doing. It was so existential. I was like, yeah, I don't know. Then I just bombed so hard. I mean, it was truly silent. But there is something kind of

beautiful about people bombing. I love watching people bomb now because there's something kind of heroic about struggling through that. But I mean, that's just one of many times that I've bombed. Often when there's someone there that I want to impress, or like the one time a family member comes and you just die on stage. Because you said earlier you have a thick skin, but there's part of you that cares. Of course. Yeah, I care deeply, but it does sort of drive me to go back and do it again. And yeah, I do. I must love it in a way.

Yeah. Well, the thing about bombing, I guess, is that it is feedback. Yeah. It's clear feedback. Yes. It's only a failure if you have a really clear expectation of how it's going to go. And if instead you're just invested in the experience and the process, then it can't really feel like a failure.

What did it feel like in the immediate moments of it happening and the immediate aftermath? I think I ran away. I think I even left my guitar there and just went home I think I even left my guitar there and just went home and just didn't want to see anyone and thought, oh, maybe I'll get on a train and go back to London. So it felt pretty gutting, but then it just makes the next good set feel doubly delicious and reaffirming. What gets you out of it though, when you're in that slump and you're wanting to run away to London? I think the comedy community and other comics,

and I talk a lot about my experiences as a teenager, and I know comedy in that community gets a bad rep, but also it's such an amazing community as well, and it's such a shared experience and knowing that all my heroes have bombed and talking to other comics and seeing people bomb and talking it out. So yeah, I'd say other comedians. Because this is what is so profound about it is that you can apply that just to anyone listening who is feeling like a failure right now for whatever, it doesn't have to be stand-up comedy.

Yes. I think that's really good advice. Lean into your community and understand that the next time you'll have acquired some necessary information. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, with that incident in particular, it was tough because it was a physiological response to terror that caused me to bomb,

I think. I was so palpably nervous that it's really uncomfortable for an audience. And so that's just something that you've got to put your thousand hours in or whatever and get over that physical response to fear because you can't really think your way out of it. You just have to do it again and again. And do you think that that possibility of paralyzing fear is also what makes it so exciting and so the thing that you want to do? I think people do comedy for different reasons or anything, any form of self-expression. Some people it feels like it's because of a chip on their shoulder, and that's not the best.

But then for me, I'm such a fan. I'm such a fan of so many people and I love comedy still. I go and see it on my nights off and I love music. That's part of it. Then also, feeling like I have something to say that I'm just trying to get at and I hope I never quite get there because it's what keeps me trying to say it. I don't even know what really it is specifically, but it feels like there's something I'm trying to say in different mediums and forms.

Yeah. It's the confusion again. It's the confusion. The confusion and the creativity. I think that's so beautifully expressed. Yeah. And do you feel that in the midst of this sort of trying to get somewhere but not being quite clear where, but having something to offer, your stage persona is getting closer

to the you persona off stage? There's pretty much no separation now for sure. I mean, I'm sure there is, but yeah, I definitely felt audiences responding much more when I dropped that mask a little bit. I think especially now there's a real appetite for authenticity and people can kind of sniff out when someone's being inauthentic. And so I like that a lot. Yeah. How are you feeling about your forties? Fucking hell.

Are we there? Oh my God. I'm that I'm nervous about. I, yeah, I think a big part of my identity is tied to youth and that'll be really interesting. I'm, I'm looking forward to tackling that because it's daunting. Yeah. I'm looking forward to tackling that because it's daunting. Yeah, I feel I'm really aware of mortality and but everyone says it's the best and you know yourself better than ever.

And so maybe it'll be great. Yes, it will be great. Yes, it will. You also look very, very young. Thank you. So there's that. I had that fear when I turned 30 that no one would ever say to me, oh, you're very young to be doing what you're doing.

Right. Well, especially if you get any kind of recognition for being young, which, and having started it, yeah, when I was 13, that was like, I had a real carte blanche to fail because I was young. And then, you know, when you're not the ingenue anymore, you've got to just be good. But also, creativity is constantly about new adventures. Definitely. And so you're still growing and learning and you're still an ingenue in that respect. That's true. Well, music feels that way because it feels really new for me and exciting. And

then yeah, maybe I'll make a sculpture one day. I don't know. What is next? Hidya's question. Are you working on a new album? I am writing some songs. Yeah, I'm pretty addicted to it. But no, mainly I'm just finishing the edit of Wayward that comes out this year and writing a couple of films with Joe Hampson who I made feel good with. And yeah, I've got 25 plates that I'm, I figure if you just inundate people with things, then something will stick. You know? And so I always have a bunch in development and so much of it goes nowhere.

And then the things that resonate push through. Yeah. Final question. Do you care about legacy? Not really, because I'll be dead. So I care a lot about what people think, don't get me wrong. But then I'll be dead. So. Do you care a lot about what everyone thinks? Or is it just certain people? Everyone. I wish that wasn't the case. Yeah. Although with music, I'm more at peace with music because it's so subjective and I know that there's great music that I just don't listen to because, I don't know,

it doesn't gel with me and I don't particularly like the police, for instance. I mean, the band, the police or the police. But that doesn't mean it's bad music. So with music, I'm more at peace with some people are going to like it and some won't. Yeah. Well, to go back to my obsession with cheese, I realized relatively recently there are some people who just don't like cheese. That is sick though. That's insane. Thank you.

Those people are wrong. I knew I liked you. They are wrong. And I have such a strong opinion about cheese being great. And it just really helped me deal with criticism. I've actually never met someone who doesn't like cheese, but yeah, they must exist. That's a very privileged existence. Yeah. May Martin, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on How To Fail.

It's been so lovely. Thank you so much. Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.