How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Sam Ryder - ‘Fame is like giving a dog a treat every single day. You get used to it.’

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

Over on Failing with Friends - Sam Ryder talks about panic attacks, how to forgive, and (in a How To Fail first) why he likes to cut his toenails outdoors. To hear Sam tackling your failures join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Sam Ryder is a British singer-songwriter who started posting covers on TikTok during the pandemic that ended up catching the eye of Sia, Elton John and Justin Bieber. He represented the UK at the Eurovision Song Contest in 2022, placing second only to Ukraine. It was our highest-scoring entry in 24 years. In one of my favourite ever episodes, Sam talks about the pressures of fame, the challenge of keeping ego in check, the transformative power of gratitude and why he thinks Dolly Parton is ‘the supreme being’. We also talk about tracks from Sam Ryder’s upcoming album, including his single ‘White Lies’ out 21st March. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole & Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Now, if you're an entrepreneur like me or living the creative freelance life, then Squarespace is the all-in-one platform to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or nurturing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a stunning website and engage with your audience. My website was designed on Squarespace and I found it so user-friendly and easy. And trust me, I am not techy at all. Squarespace supports a design-orientated ethos, so the options are chic and there's plenty of templates to choose from. I felt

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as a lens to reflect on the past and analyse the current moment. I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie O'Donnell, and Kenya Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver to understand how both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world. Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, lovely How to Fail listeners and viewers. This is just to let you know that if you want a peek behind the curtain to find out the last time that Kate Winslet spoke to Leo or

how much sex Vogue Williams considers to be normal, then you can listen to my subscriber series. Just follow the link in the show notes and we will see you there. When the band would start going downhill, because I was always seemingly joining a band as they were on the decline, I'd jump on the next one. The fact that you found it, the scales are balanced forever. That is so profound. You've actually made me well up. Have you seen Ed Sheeran since? We've never met. Welcome to How To Fail. And for those that are new around here, this is the podcast where I talk to my guests about three failures in their life and what they've learned along

the way. Please do follow this podcast because it really helps other people find us. And please do share it with all of your friends and family members and even people you don't like. We're not fussy. Thank you so much for being here. My guest today is a British singer-songwriter who shot to international fame in 2022 when he represented the UK at the Eurovision Song Contest, placing second only to Ukraine. It was our highest-scoring entry in 24 years, and the man who sang and co-wrote it was none other than Sam Ryder. He was born and raised in Essex, the son of a carpenter and a dentist, and his first job was delivering papers for the Essex Chronicle. From an early age, Ryder loved music. Some of his earliest memories are of

singing along to Freddie Mercury in his dad's car. He spent several years as a wedding singer until Covid hit and lockdown restrictions made public performances impossible. So he turned to TikTok, uploading music covers. He gained a huge following and eventually a record deal. His singing caught the attention of artists such as Elton John, Sia, Justin Bieber and Alicia Keys. And in 2022, his debut album debuted at number one in the UK album charts. After two Brit Award nominations, he's now releasing White Lies, the first single from his second album, which he's been hard at work on for most of last year. I've been playing music for a long time, mostly to empty rooms, Ryder has said about

his rise to fame. That's the reality for so many people, absolutely grafting, carrying on regardless with a sort of blind ambition, believing that you'll make it one day and it might not be tomorrow. Sam Ryder, welcome to How to Fail. Mate, thank you so much for having me. I'm blown away. Thank you. Oh, I'm blown away to have you here. Very kind of you. How did that make you feel hearing that? Really a bit emotional actually. Yeah, just so lovely just remembering how much my parents

have supported me from delivering papers around, well, you can't even call it a village when I grew up. And then working the drive through, then going to work with my dad and just, yeah, all the sort of self-belief you have to have in yourself through those years. Is it true that you helped your dad build Wembley Stadium? Yes, yeah, we did a very small amount of it. We put some floors down in one of the hospitality rooms. Some of those doors were hung by me and they probably swing like saloon doors now. They've had so much planed off the top and bottom because they're wonky. I'm sure that's not true. Tell me about being a wedding singer and those years spent performing

in that context. What do you think those years taught you? So I'd worked with my dad for a bit in carpentry and my dad bless him. He was just like, you know, wanted to help me out, make sure that I could earn some money and buy some guitars and like chase music basically. We had a lot of disagreements growing up and instilled in me a real ethic for hard work and you you get what you put in, in this world and in this life. I really, like, feel that from my dad. And, um, but he would let me go and play shows and go on tour with bands because that was my dream. And he knew that carpentry was a way that I could, uh, learn skills,

um, put some money in the bank and go and see the world and chase like run down the dream like Tom Petty would say. So I'm playing like punk bands and metal bands because that was my music growing up. It still is now like Iron Maiden, like my favorite band on the planet and they taught me so much about kind of perseverance and just melodic sensibility in music and far more.

So I did that for a lot of years, again, playing to no one. That's when you said in your introduction, that's the time that it was just playing around Europe, around Russia, around South America, around the US. Played all over the place with different bands. I always say I was like a flea on a bunch of dying dogs, just jumping off them at the right time to be on the next one.

When the band would start going downhill, because I was always seemingly joining a band as they were on the decline. I jump on the next one until I made a conscious effort to really rethink my approach to music and what I was doing it for, which we can get into later. But that's when I took a break from chasing that same feedback loop, and then I started singing at weddings. That's where I learned the most about music.

You could say that's the, in terms of cool anecdotes and stories, there's far more when you're playing in some random underground club in Russia, then there is playing at an Essex, like whitewashed wedding venue in the countryside. But that's where I learned everything I feel about singing and being a vocalist and stuff like that. And it was one of the things that you learned that you had to do it for the love of it because

so often at weddings people are drunk and not paying attention. You are anonymous. You are me in the room. One of the first weddings that I did, very much in a space, when you're starting out, your ego is an uncontrollable sort of state, because it needs to be. You have to tell yourself, oh, I'm special, I'll make it one day and all this sort of, no, this narrative that replays in your mind because it's a, it's kind of like your superpower. You've got nothing else.

You need to have some kind of like overextended belief in yourself. And I remember singing at a wedding and I had this This run. I think it was in like a Gloria Gaynor song that we were covering or something like that I remember thinking in my head. Oh, I absolutely nailed that they'll love that and I opened my eyes and no one cared No one batted an eyelid and it was then it was like a very hard lesson immediately that like No one cares you have to do this because you love it and do not expect anything else from anyone. It needs to be something that feeds your spirit. Music and singing cannot be a thing that you hope to gain something from it. You cannot take

anything from it because it's given you everything already. Music or any kind of work that we chase and we give our lives to is purpose and from that is fulfillment. So to ask for anything from it as currency in return is folly and you have to simply be grateful that it exists in your life because there are numerous people around the planet who go through their entire lifespan without knowing what their spark is and what their skill is and what their thing that lights them up in this world is. So the fact that you've found it, the scales are balanced forever. ALICE That is so profound. You've actually made me well up because you've spoken directly to my soul there.

I so appreciate that. I can't explain. You have been at work in the studio on your second album. Was it nice getting back in the studio after the fame, the success, everything, the Brit Award nominations? Yeah. How did it feel? When everything kicked off, I was in a state of just abundance of things

happening that I could never have dreamt of, beyond my wildest imaginings. But there comes a price with that because every day you're like, it's like giving a dog a treat every day, every hour of every day, because you get used to it. And it can be very taxing if you haven't got your spiritual armament in check. And so that was something I very much knew that I had to employ and shore up. So there was a time right after the Emmy Awards where we were nominated and we lost to Ed Sheeran, which is going to come up again later. Well, I remember going back to my hotel room in Los Angeles and just very much having a

talk with myself like, this has been a wonderful, I think, three-year stint of just things that, like I said, couldn't have imagined happening and realizing dreams and successes alongside an amazing team. But it's time to go into the studio and do the work because there are a lot of voices around telling me, don't ever go away, don't ever be quiet because the way that we consume media now, that's your death sentence. To ever just take time for the work and not be out in the public eye would be essentially

giving it all up. And I hated that. And not to use that word lightly, but I despise that thought process and this thing that puts so much pressure on anyone, regardless of what industry you're in or anything, just as a human being, being told that and even worse believing it is awful. So the best way to rebel against that is to do it because creating something that you feel is valuable takes

time and it is labor intensive. Good food takes time to cook and you have to at some point just get stuck in. I'm going to talk about some of the songs that I've been lucky enough to hear from it a bit later. I feel there's been a shift in your sound and I can't put my finger on it. So will you describe the second album's sound? I call the genre Frontier Soul because for me, I'm a big fan of cinema as well as music and Tarantino's work, for example, or all the old westerns that me and my granddad would watch over and over again because we'd forgotten what ones we'd seen and stuff like that. Like all of that is in the music as

well. There's a dusty kind of desert soul that exists in the soundscape, whether it's in the guitars or even just the way that we've captured it on old tape machines and all of this thing, it takes time. It's not quick. Even using machines like that is labor intensive and it's methodical and it makes you think about what you're doing, kind of being present in the process of doing it, if that makes sense. It makes total sense. Let's get on to your failures. Your first one is losing a battle of the bands to support Ed Sheeran in 2019.

Yes. Okay, so tell us what happened. This moment in time, I was singing at weddings, but also running a vegan juice bar, a healthy sort of food establishment with my partner, Lois. And it was so amazing. We did that for three years and we were so healthy, I can't explain. We were like, I don't know, I made all the juices. So I'd go and play at weddings and then instead of going home to bed afterwards, because you don't really leave them till like 1.30 or 2 in the morning, I'd go straight to the shop. So people would see me, like the milkman would drive past. We had this lovely big bay window and the milkman would go past and I'd be in

a suit cutting watermelons up because I'd get all the cold press juice made, which again, it's very methodical. It takes ages. It's not like the ones where you throw apples in the lot. It's like slow little corkscrew. And it is kind of, yeah, it's almost like mantra when you're making these juices. So I do that, it takes hours. And then Lois would come in and serve the food. She's amazing at like dealing with a busy cafe. I can't bear it. I couldn't like, there would be times if I was on my own in the shop, people would want to come in and I'd say, I'm sorry, we're closed. Because I just, I felt I just couldn't do it. But

That's interesting. I just can't do it. Are you an introvert? But no, no, because I love people. I love like saying hello to anyone and everyone. I love chatting, but there's something in me when people are waiting for something from me, like even to make them like a peanut butter bagel with a juice, I'd be freaking out. And I've always been like that. You can never go on Celebrity MasterChef.

No, couldn't, never. But yeah, so I'd do that and then, so this was the time of my life that that was going on and when I'd finish, I'd go back to my studio and I'd just make like records and songs and write and go and play little shows in London as and when they came up. And this opportunity came up to get involved in this Battle of the Bands. And I was laughing because I was like, I haven't been involved in a Battle of the Bands since I was probably 16 years old. And here I am in my, well, I would have been my mid-twenties, I think, doing it again.

So in a way, if you get in your head, it felt like a backward step. But I was like, you know what? I feel like I could do this in the right way now. You know, and the prize was to me at that time, so amazing, you know, get the chance to open up for Ed Sheeran. So it's like huge, something, you know, just mad. And so I did this and I got on stage and I played my set and I came off stage and I was like really happy with that performance and whatever happens happens. And of course, that's a lie that we all tell ourselves because you're like, I want to win. And then I didn't win, but it felt for whatever reason, it felt like the final nail in the coffin. I don't know why, but I remember standing out, it was really lovely clear night and the stars were out.

The gig was at this small cafe in Ipswich. I was with my partner, Lois, and we were just stood by the water. I was so sad, not the word, but I just felt like, oh, that was when you know, when you hear people like, when they talk to their, I don't know, their grandkids or their nieces and nephews when they're older, like, that was my last gig or my last time trying and that's when

I really threw in the towel or something like that. It felt like that could have been that moment for me. And it just felt very poignant. I was like, okay, well, I gave it my best shot and no one can say otherwise because I gave everything in the chase and the pursuit of this dream. And maybe it wasn't for me and life holds something else for me. I've learned so much and I'll carry on singing, but I'll just sing for people getting married and that will be my life.

And what a lovely life it still would have been. There's nothing terrible about it by any means, but it still felt like, you know, sad in that way. And I remember Lois really comforting me and saying and holding my hands, and we both looked up to the stars. I know this is going to sound so wafty, but you know, there's something about a lovely clear night. It's for millennia, we've all done,

like humans have done it. You look up and it feels like your problems are tiny, but you are still part of something majestic. And all you have to do is look up and feel that way. And we both said, I am ready. I'm ready for this to happen. And I invite it into my life and I swear to whatever's out there that I'll perform it with the most grace I can. And that's what

we both said. Oh my god, that's extraordinary. Well, it really did feel that way. So how important has Lois been through all of this? Oh mate, I can't put into words. The amazing thing, and it's similar actually listening to the Danny Dyer episode of this show because Danny has been with his partner for a long time and I remember him saying that she never really wanted that life but she came along for the ride in the most supportive

and loving way. And Lois is the same. She never wanted us to have, she loved it when I was juicing vegetables, going to sing at weddings and coming home and maybe thought I would get into gardening one day and we'd have a lovely like quiet life. And she's been so incredible because she knows that this has been such a dream of mine for as long as I can remember. And she was willing to strap herself onto this runaway train of upheaval, almost. I've seen what this does to people that don't have someone

like Lois in their life. It derails everything and it isn't worth the cost. It just isn't. I've seen the look in people's eyes where you can almost see that there is a glaze and just this far away stare in a false happiness and a false content with this amazing gilded thing that they've been gifted, but it's not worth it. It's not rooted. Totally fake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So from that moment, which is 2019, then COVID happens and the lockdowns hit. So it's not that long after you've stood there under the night sky, the stars, and you've said, I invite this in,

we are so ready. What was the first TikTok video you made? I think, I can't remember the exact one because it's all a bit convoluted, but I remember my friend, like my dear friend, and Lois's friend Derek in Nashville, who's actually now part of my management team, which is so lovely. I've known him for 12 years, and he was one of the first people that believed in the music I was making, and has been there since day one, really. He just told me, look, get on TikTok and sing some songs. I have a good feeling about it. And I was like, I don't want to get on TikTok. I saw people dancing and stuff like that. He's like, no, just do it. I've just got this feeling. So I was like, I don't want to get on TikTok. I saw people dancing and stuff like that. And he's like, no, just do it. I've just got this feeling. So I was like, okay, cool.

I'll do it. And I think one of the first ones that really went off, maybe was Sia, maybe singing Sia, or at least it might not have been the first TikTok, but that in my mind, when I look back, I think it was May 15th or something. Cause I like the date is somewhere etched in my mind when I look back, I think it was May 15th or something. Because the date is somewhere etched in my mind. I have remembered it before.

I don't remember it today. But it was around that time that I remember making a note. You put a fold in the page of your life and be like, that's when life changed. And I remember doing that because I was stirring some pasta. Like it was the lockdown that we had, thankfully, was like Huckleberry Finn. Like the, out in the countryside, the weather that summer was mad good, wasn't it? And myself and Lois were living with my parents, my mum and dad, because we'd just bought a house, but it needed to be totally renovated. So me and my dad

were going there when we were allowed to take ceilings down and stuff like that. But in the meantime, just living with mum and dad and I was singing in my shed. So yeah, I just made this video, put it online and then was just stirring some pasta. We were going to have a little barbecue at the end of the garden altogether. It was a really lovely memory. And all of a sudden I checked my phone and it just had gone crazy. And like, Sia had tagged me in this post sharing the video. And not just that, but like saying something. It's so incredibly kind in the caption that it felt like basically reading between the lines,

we're rooting for you and we'll see you when you get here. That's how I read it. And it's so lovely. And yeah, I made a mental note that that's when sort of life changed and I knew that we'd crossed a Rubicon that there was no going back from really. Have you seen Ed Sheeran since? We've never met to this day. And there's a reason for that, which I couldn't- You hate him. No, no, no.

I love Ed, but there was, I swore again, the promises I made before getting into this industry that I would never bring up or call anyone out that wasn't there to protect himself. But there are reasons behind the scenes that kept us apart because I know we have wanted to meet each other and now those have been alleviated and the people that were stopping that are not in the picture anymore. Our paths will cross soon, I'm sure. Because some very close friends of mine that are very close with him, always say how similar we are actually. I don't think it's just the ginger beard.

No. But I've heard lovely things and if he's listening then Ed, it's a long time coming. Let's chat about music. Yes, Ed. And if you're listening, please do come on how to fail because you've said some amazing things about failure. Thanks very much. Yes.

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Can we talk about your hair? Are you sick of talking about it? No, not at all. You've got great hair. Mate, thank you so much. Honestly. And is it the Iron Maiden inspiration? Is that why you decided to grow it? My mum took me to a barber's in Morden High Street when I was young and sort of left me

while she went to do the shopping and they cut and I didn't necessarily have long hair when she dropped me off but they completely shaved it and I remember I looked like Dracula like my hairline back then for whatever reason was doing a bit of a count vibe and I remember looking at myself in the mirror and just swear I'm never gonna have short hair ever again. I look terrible. Is it true you once dislocated your shoulder when you were washing it? Many times I've dislocated my shoulder. Many times.

Yeah, yeah, but that's true. So this one's got a big scar down it where it's been fixed. This one I don't want to fix because the surgery really limits like your strength. Once when I come out of the sea from surfing, I was in the shower like on the beach and just kind of washing the water out my hair, the seawater out my hair, and my thumb got stuck in a loop of like a knot of hair and then my shoulder dislocated so I was under this really, you know like the showers on the beach they're like almost like fire hydrants and I just didn't know what

to do. I was trying to get this out and I was freezing cold and it was just, yeah, calamity of errors. You've dislocated your shoulders several times, but not always washing your hair. That's where I got confused. Okay. Let's move on to your second failure. I can't wait to get into this one because it sounds really deep. Your second failure, as you put it, is talking openly about being hopeful and having faith, but struggling with it over the past year. I'd realized that every interview that I'd done and every conversation I'd had with people in the media in the last three years, when it all went to the next level, would always be introduced in a way. And it was so kind and I really appreciate it. But

like, Sam, you're here. How are you so positive? And thanks for being on the show or whatever. But what I noticed in myself is that, I mentioned this earlier about giving dogs treats. I almost felt like, while it was true, and I can say with my hand on heart, I'm a joyful person and I thank God I am, and I found happiness in my life, but I never wanted to sell what I was trying to promote. And I was always a lion. I never wanted to cross, but I crossed it. And I can't deny that there was a dopamine kick when someone would say, how are you so positive? Because your ego loves that. It's like, yes, I am. And then almost you Then almost you notice that positivity can become a currency, but it isn't worth anything. It's a snake oil because none of us are one-dimensional human beings. We are so many different things.

While I totally believe in not bringing and airing your dirty laundry everywhere you go. There is a work face that you put on. But yeah, I felt like perhaps I'd crossed the line of telling myself like those white lies that that was me all the time and I must be that all the time. And even you telling me that I'm that makes me even the time and I must be that all the time. And even you telling me that I'm that makes me even happier. So you're kind of compounding it. Does that make sense? It makes total sense and it's so interesting and White Lies is the title of your list.

Yeah. So that's what the song was written about. Yeah. For you, it sort of became a kind of brand. That's the thing that you were trying to stay away from. Yeah, exactly. I don't want to build a brand on something that I am because that's the wrong, it feels inherently wrong to do that. Because then you're tying yourself to a single dimension.

Yes, makes total sense. Also, last, someone told me this very interesting phrase. She said, I don't believe in positive thinking, I believe in flexible and realistic thinking. Yes. In that what you're describing is a kind of groundedness. That's what I get from you. Yeah, it's presentness. Exactly. It's not just kind of like, we kind of joke and say like golden retriever energy. I totally get that and it's fun like in like the meme space essentially, but it's not real.

And it's not you all of the time. No, completely not. Like I'm buzzing when I get to do things like this or go out to, I don't know, there was a big F1 event, I'm a massive F1 fan, so of course I'm going to be like smiling my head off when I'm, or there's pictures or anything like that, or there's interviews. I just love the sport, and I love music, and I love all these things that I go to, it's because I love them, so of course I'm going to be stoked. But positivity for me isn't this forced happiness at all.

It can't be, because that's cloaking emotion. Positivity is finding groundedness, like you're saying, presentness, state of peace, and you only reach those things. At least I feel I only reach those things through gratitude and real measured gratitude. And lately, something I've been really trying to employ when talking about prayer is I used to, in prayer, and regardless of what people believe, what you believe, what people watching believe, even to not believe in anything is a belief in some way. But for me, prayer used to exist like I was asking for something, like a destination-based prayer, like I want this to happen for me or I want to experience this. But now it's way more rooted in,

I want to feel peace and I want to feel like I've reached peace with a state of grace and however the path looks to reach that feeling, then protect me on that path. Do you know what I mean? I do. How did you get there? Describe what your faith is to you and where it came from. I was raised Catholic, but I can't say I would be completely lying if I said I would know any doctrine, any reading. I couldn't read a Psalm to you from my head or anything like that. But I just know there's a comfort that I feel when I turn to my spirituality. And it's even saying my spirituality feels convoluted because that's not true. It's like that feeling lives within all of us. I truly think that. And I remember

back when I was playing in hardcore punk bands, I was at a church in Texas. I can't remember even why I was there, but I was actually at a place in my life where I probably would have hated going to a church because I've had a very interesting journey when it comes to faith and finding how faith works for me and how I can access that. But I was probably very much a person sitting in the pews thinking this is complete rubbish, you know? But something was said in that sermon by the pastor, it was like, even if the kingdom of heaven isn't real, isn't this a better way to live? And it really struck me that, and I can only, in fact, even just talking to you now, I haven't really thought of that

since just this moment. And so that is sitting in my subconscious, I think, of just, isn't this a better way to live for me personally? When we started this conversation, you were talking about how you'd had a talk with yourself after not winning the Emmy in a hotel room in LA. Can you tell us more about that? That was really rough, actually. I think no one is without ego. It exists in all of us. It's part of us almost that keeps us in check. It's a voice where you can challenge it and

make sure that it keeps you on the right path, that ego unchecked is the problem. Yes. And gratitude is the force that holds it. And I remember being so hurt that we didn't get it because we put so much work into it. And it was such a selfish viewpoint that I had then in that hotel room. And I thought I'd got rid of, that wasn't me. I'm totally not about that. And popular opinion would say,

oh, that's what you would have wanted, the gold medal. Surely you wanted to win. I never felt that. I was like, I love being here. And I know if I've done my best work and I've carried myself to the standard that my family and my loved ones would expect of me, I do not care about the end result because it's nothing. But that was the first time something for whatever reason crept past. It felt like, you know, when you see an action movie and there's a

massive fight or something, or just a foray of energy, bullets are flying, everything's going on, and the main character is kind of, I don't know, like suavely dodging everything, like James Bond style. And then the scene dies down and they walk away and then the camera pans down and they realize, oh, they actually did catch a bullet or something, you know, typical like cinema technique. And that's what it felt like. I felt like I'd carried these ethics and these morals and these values with me, but something sort of got through at some point and tried to steer me off. And that's why I made after that, it was the circuit breaker. I was like, I don't want to, if I carry on those, that's how it happens. It's how it begins.

No one ever, like I said, gets rid of that ego. You just keep it in check. And the less you keep it in check, the more it grows. And that's when I was like, I'm going to go away for a year in the studio, do the spiritual work, do the musical work, do the everything work. It's really amazing that you were able to do that within yourself with the help of your faith and this higher power. But so many people would need someone else to step in and say, by the way, this is-

Yeah, yeah. It's a seductive drug, I think. The whole idea of notoriety and recognition in a public space with whatever industry you're in. See, the Brits was just the other night. Well, it's basically putting everyone from every corner of the industry, whether you're presenters, dancers, musicians, singers, presenters, dancers, musicians, singers, designers, or creative directors, all in one space looking at other people in their industry and comparisons the thief of joy, we all know that. The energy there is super hectic, you can feel it. And usually I didn't like going, but I was also stoked to be there because I was lucky enough to get a nomination. So I'd sit there and I'd try and just be thankful.

And you sit and just tell yourself over again, thank you, thank you. Then you try not to let any of that comparison kick in because it ruins the night. But it is an effort. But this year, not to let any of that comparison kick in because it ruins the night, but it is an effort. But this year, I just, I really enjoyed it. I so loved just rooting for people that were winning and seeing them succeed and knowing that other people's successes aren't your failures. I mean, that's a classic case. We all feel that. That's like, um, page one of the how to fail book, I suppose, isn't it? But also knowing that like, when I do fail now, I'm not, we aren't victims of failure. We are beneficiaries. If anyone listening to this is struggling, and by anyone I mean me, with that...

Well, I'm there with you. You don't fix it. I don't think you... It's so difficult because obviously, ironically, I've set up this whole podcast about failure and exactly what we're talking about because I still care about where I am in the podcast chart. Stupid, isn't it? It's crap. It's so stupid and I don't know how to stop it. Yeah. I don't know.

What advice would you give? I totally get you because even releasing new stuff or being in any facet of the industry, like I keep saying, all of us have metrics that people that we work with are looking at. I found that something that brings me a lot of comfort in knowing that there is a foot you must have in the physical and keeping a foot in the spiritual is vital. But having a team around you that you love and you trust and that you will truly do anything for, which from spending a short amount of time with you, I feel like you would be that person. That a team isn't something in flux. You invite people into

your circle who you want to help build up and that you would hope will stay with you for the entire journey. That for me is so important and we've gone to great lengths. People who were deemed no longer valuable in the major label system, when we left that, when those people were let go of, we took them in to build our own thing altogether. As they took them in, it sounds like stray dogs, it wasn't like that. We needed them more than they needed us. And so we've built that, we've built our own recording studios, our own film studios, everything so that no matter what happens, I can make records with a great team for the rest of my life.

And it doesn't matter about the charts because everything's been invested into that being a constant. So there's a sort of rebellion there, I think, that's needed, but all great things come from upheaving the furniture. So I think that that is a piece of advice. I totally hear you and I so I really do feel for you. I swear because I know the feeling. Yes. All of this that you have so eloquently described, is it also partly why I've seen the artwork for White Lies and your face is obscured?

Is there a sort of turning away? Yeah, I'm glad you picked that up. I love it by the way. Thank you, mate. So we, myself, Lois and Jack, who is our photographer and videographer, and it's just an amazing guy. We went on a trip basically to Georgia. So I live half the time in Nashville.

We've just moved there. So super exciting. Anyway, we stopped at this thrift shop. This place just had a pile of trash out the front of it, which immediately made me excited for what was in there because the stuff on the trash pile was quite good. It's the stuff that they'd sell for way too much money in Nashville center. So I was like, if they're throwing that in the bin, I want to see what I've got. But yeah, just looking at the pile of rubbish made me think about the upheaval of the furniture and the pulling the rug out from the past

and not discarding it, but just knowing that it was there and it's a time and that life is consistently moving. And to stay stuck in the past is where Willie Nelson says, you slow down, you go down. So stay in motion and keep moving. So we took a picture of me essentially running away from it. I think that that pile of rubbish, it sounds maybe a bit too much of a diss, and I don't mean it as a diss, but is us looking at the world in which we operated in, in the industry for music in the last three years,

and what we're heading into, which is of course off-screen, and we don't know what it is, but it's in some open lush green field. It's not like I said, there's no shade being thrown here to people. It's infrastructure, not the people because the people have come with us. The people that were let go from their jobs after succeeding

every single time, everything that came our way on that project, we passed with flying colors. In short, what do you think the greatest flaw of the music industry as it exists now is? I think it's lack of patience. Anything that's shiny and new, they run towards, and then as soon as something else comes up, they get left in the lurch without being given the time to grow and develop and to do something outstanding. And something that we see as valuable and precious and just magnetic's very quickly forgotten about. And that's not because those people aren't patient, it's because the nature of the industry isn't patient, so they can't afford to be patient because their jobs are on the line.

Your final failure, which is linked to everything that we've been discussing, is not being around for family and friends so much. Yes. And I'm sure this is a popular one, right? But I very much over the last few years have known deep in my mind and my soul that I am living in the golden age of my life. My grandfather is alive, God bless him. And my mum and dad are fit and healthy and able to wind down, not work their things to the bone as much anymore. Where my parents didn't know anything about music, they, and I love you mum, but you can think that. Can they sing? Well, my mum actually doesn't have a bad voice at all. She'll be laughing when she hears

it. But she could definitely join like a village choir. That sounds so condescending. That is so damning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she definitely could if she wanted to. And I think she should because I think singing is just good for everything. But she, yeah, I hear her sing every now and then. She's got proper like Disney vibrato, you know, when like the birds are singing, kind of that. But yeah, they didn't know anything about music. They couldn't help me in any way. I had no leg up into the industry whatsoever. And that's tough because so many people do. And I'm not chastising that whatsoever. We don't choose what we're born

into, but it's tough when you have no entrance into it. You've got to make your own way. But they did everything they could to find other ways of helping me and my dad allowing me to come to work with him. And then a moment to notice, be like, dad, I need to take first day off because there's a gig that could be a really good opportunity for me. And it'd be like, dad, I need to take first day off because there's a gig that could be a really good opportunity for me. And it'd be like, no problem, go and do it, but be in Friday. You know? So they did everything they could to, you know, they'd never, they wouldn't walk the mile for me, but they'd give me the shoes to do it. And so, yeah, like, So, yeah, like I know very well that I'm in the golden age of my life and that this has all come at a time where there'll be weeks where I can't see anyone because I'm in a

different country. And I notice when I come home, my granddad looking older and, you know, he's 93, almost about to be 93. So it's just a fact of life. It's just happening, you know. And yes, so there's a concern there, but then I just know that they understand at the same time and that they saw me wait until... this didn't happen to me till I was gone 30. The amount of perseverance, I can't explain. When the fabric, the very nature and the fabric of the industry and society when it comes to the arts, if you're a singer or a musician, I remember even years ago, I was like,

if you don't make something by early 20s, just give up, find something else. So to hang in there that long, I couldn't have done it without them. And yeah, I really can't express enough the amount of times that I failed and got knocked back, but found a way to dust myself off and get back and just refuse. I just refuse to not achieve it. It can't happen. I will do it. . Do you want kids? I just, I only want to have kids if I can be a good dad and I don't think I'm in the

right space to be a dad as good as my dad was for me. You know what I mean? Because my dad is so incredible and everything that, if anyone ever says something kind about me and my personality, I literally hear it as if they're saying to my mom and dad, nice one. Because that's why. They're just such amazing people. And my partner as well. Without Lois, without my parents, without my sisters, without my granddad, I'm nothing. I wouldn't have turned out in any way. I would have been just an idiot. So I'm so thankful for them, but I know what it takes for them to have achieved that, to instill values in myself and my sisters. It takes presence and time and I'm all over the place.

LARISA There's a song that I've listened to, which will be on your second album, Better Man, which is all about being loved by someone who sees you as better than you think you are. Is that about Lois and your family? Yeah, definitely. I mean, the lyric is, that's it actually. You love me like I'm a better man and better than the one I think I am. Yeah, it's completely about that. Gear change. Who's the most exciting famous person you've met since this wild journey began? I met Brian Cox at the Oppenheimer.

Actor or scientist? Scientist. Okay. I would love to meet Brian Cox, the actor there as well. In that setting was perfect. Yes. He was so lovely. I met a lot of people just very much in passing, like Louis Theroux at the Brits the other

night. And it's so lovely because they... I've given up a long time ago letting myself be intimidated to go and say hello to someone. I feel like if someone came up out of the blue that I didn't know to say something nice to me, it would be the... Just accepted with... I would be stoked, put it that way. So in my mind now, if there's people that are quite intimidating characters, I just don't care. If I love their work, I'll

go and say hi to their security and then go and say hello to them and thank you for the work and that I'm a fan because I think it's really nice to say that. And I've met a lot of lovely people through doing that and Stormzy for one, you must get him on your show. I'm desperate. That's another one that I'd love to have. He said something great at the Brits actually, read the Psalm and just talking about, I think the nature of forgiveness if I read between the lines of what he was saying. And I think that was really lovely. Brian May is a really wonderful character.

His wife Anita, so lovely. Have you met Dolly Parton? No, I would love to. I was actually listening to her talking this morning. Sometimes I'm a massive Dolly Parton fan, like the way she is kind of the supreme being, I think, of how to hold yourself in a world where you are very blessed and privileged with what life has given you. I think she's amazing. You should try and get her on your show. I also want Dolly Parton. Let's put it out there. Let's put it into the universe.

I totally think... Because she... Yeah, like there's amazing things that she'll see. I'm certain she would see how amazing this is. I love you. I really think she would. You were so lovely. I have to say, Sam, I could talk to you for hours. It's been a series of quiet and profound revelations, this conversation. I can't thank you enough. You talk about wanting to be a better man, but for me, you're one of the best. You really are. I'm so grateful that you've come on How to Fail. It's been amazing.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I want to go to a thrift shop in Kentucky with you. Yes. Anytime. Anytime you're in Nashville, I swear, come and let me know. You're welcome to stay at ours. We've got plenty of room. And if you like a rickety old log cabin in the middle of the trees, it's the vibe. That's exactly what I love. And I definitely mean it. If you get your podcast with Dolly and she won't travel, come and do it at the cabin. It's a deal.

Yes. Sam Ryder, you've been effortlessly wonderful. You're going to stay for Fading with Friends, but for now, thank you so much for coming on How To Fail. Thank you very much. Appreciate you. Please follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.