How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Sharon Horgan - ‘My marriage failed but it had such a positive impact on my life’

Episode Date: January 22, 2025

Sharon Horgan is a writer, actor and director. She has an uncanny ability to craft complex, compelling and heartfelt characters who find comedy even in the darkest of situations: just like in her hit series Bad Sisters - which has won a Peabody Award and four Emmy nominations. You’ll also know her from the BAFTA-nominated show Pulling, plus starring and writing in the critically-acclaimed shows Catastrophe and Motherland. Her failures include dropping out of art college and drama school, a failed audition and finally - a big one - her marriage. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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enter the promo code FAIL on the checkout page. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that believes, as Truman Capote did, that failure is the condiment that gives success its flavour. Before we get to our guest, I wanted to mention our subscriber podcast, Failing with Friends, where my guest and I answer your questions and offer advice on some of your failures too. Here's some from Sharon Horgan. I'm good friends with an ex currently and it's really lovely. I never thought I would be that person. Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes and you can send me an email or look

out for my call-outs once a month on Instagram for quickfire questions. Thank you so, so much. In her own words, Sharon Horgan is a late starter. After a childhood spent in Ireland attending a convent school she hated and helping out on her parents' turkey farm in the holidays, Horgan dropped out of art college and worked in a job centre through her twenties before deciding to go to university aged twenty-seven to study English. In her early thirties and single, Horgan lived in a flat share in London, experiences that informed Pulling, a sitcom she co-wrote with Dennis Kelly, which won a cult following

and a BAFTA nomination. In her forties, she wrote and starred in the hit show Catastrophe, and co-created the TV series Motherland. But it was bad sisters created in her 50s that sent Horgan's career stratospheric. The dark comedy about five siblings brought together by a determination to save their sister from the clutches of her abusive husband won a Peabody Award, four Emmy nominations, and a 100% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Season 2 premiered last November. Still only 54, you have to wonder if Horgan's early experiences of not quite finding her place in the world have shaped her uncanny ability to craft complex, compelling and heartfelt characters who find comedy even in the darkest situations. As she puts it, I didn't want

to be insignificant, so I made people laugh. Young Sharon Horgan, whippersnapper. That was so funny. Welcome to How to Fail. Just a baby of 54. I do mean that though. Such a weird number. It feels so weird saying it. I can imagine it feels weird, but I did mean that because of how much you've created. Yeah. How many hit shows you've got under your belt. You're something of a workaholic, aren't you? I suppose. I think so. Does work make you happy?

Yeah. Oh, it definitely does. I mean, it's sometimes chaotic. Like this morning when I got out of the bath, Holly Walsh, we're making this new series called Amanda Land, which is a spin-off of Motherland, texted me and said, where are your notes for episode six? So I was doing my notes for episode six on the way over here. When I finish here, I go and have a meeting with a new young writer and it's sometimes too much. I've just come off the press tour for Bad Sisters and I should just be lying down. But I was doing the notes on the way over here and really enjoying it. It gives me a buzz and I know that even though I'm stressing about going to meet this new

young writer, it'll be great and I'll enjoy it because that's the kind of thing that gets me really excited. But I don't know. I enjoy it so much that it kind of feels like sometimes just leisure. I feel the same. And I think actually, I don't really agree with the term workaholic. And I'm trying to reclaim the idea of busy. Because actually, I really lean into that and I love work. There are evenings that I would rather be working than seeing anyone else.

I totally agree. But you're not allowed to say that. No, it seems weird, doesn't it? That idea of wanting to make people laugh to prove your significance. What was the first time you can remember being really proud that you'd made someone laugh? Well, it was my mother. It was my mother and I completely remember it. She has a great sense of humor and so did my dad,

but she wasn't like a big laugher. She wouldn't sort of roll over and belly laugh, but we had these... Do you remember those masks you used to get on Halloween? There's like a little piece of elastic. So anyway, I put on this cat mask and I just made like a cat, just trying to be physically funny for her. And she rolled over like proper belly laughing, whatever it was. I was just being a clown for her. So that really stuck in my head because when you're one of five, you kind of need to find your thing. You either have to be, I don't know, the very responsible one or the very caring one or the one who's great at sports or, you know. So I guess I was the second eldest, so it was kind of, I guess, hard to find your thing that made you stand out. So for me, it was just making

them laugh. So playing Eva in Bad Sisters, who is the eldest and has a very maternal relationship with her younger sisters. She's the one who takes care of them, who gets shit done, who's there as an aunt, which I really valued seeing on screen. Thank you, because she doesn't have her own children. And so actually there was something so meaningful about that for me to watch. Was that wish fulfillment for you? Heather Meehan Well, it was in a way because I really loved the idea of playing someone who was a good person and a non-selfish person. And I mean, I never sort of thought this, but my, especially my eldest daughter, she tells me that I always play assholes.

And I guess what I generally play are women who can be selfish and can be flawed and that kind of thing and make bad choices. And that's fine. I love them for it. And there's loads of me in all of those women. And so there's less of me in Eva, I think. And I put a lot of my older sister into her. And in fact, my sister did end up becoming a mom. She met and fell in love with someone quite late in her life, but she had gotten to a point where she wasn't going to have kids and was kind of okay, was making herself okay with that. And I mean, there's loads of people who I think probably it's a good thing for them not to have kids. It's not right for

them. But I knew for her, you know, she's kind of a born mother and I felt like it was really important that that happened for her. So with Eva, I kind of using that part of my sister that if she hadn't had a kid, she would have still been this incredible maternal matriarch kind of person, so important in all of our lives. My eldest sister is godmother to my youngest brother, such an Irish thing. But yeah, just someone, I liked her being someone who had made peace with it and continued to sort of mother in other ways.

It's one of the things that has always struck me about your work, that even when you write or play mothers, it's not excluding in any way. And maybe that's because you have this experience of knowing what your older sister went through, but it's a very rare quality. And I'm not quite sure how you do it, but it's really beautifully done. And you also show different ways of parenting. And I just wanted to thank you for that. As someone who doesn't have children and who has tried and failed, but knows that there are other ways to mother, it's really refreshing to see that on screen.

Oh, thank you. Truly. Talking of your youngest brother, Mark, he said this thing in your, you did Relative Values on the Sunday Times. Oh yeah. And he said this thing and it was a very loving piece, obviously, but he calls you a hard knock to crack. He said that when you first met his partner, it was huge hugs for him and social went in for one too, but Sharon put her hand out to shake it.

Is that shyness? Yeah, I think it is actually. I think it's a weird mixture. Definitely started out as shyness. And then I think when I started doing this job and making TV and being a bit sort of front facing, there was a sort of awkwardness that came with walking into a room and what people expected you to be versus who you actually are. Do you know what I mean? So I suppose I did sort of put on a bit of a front. And so I think it's a weird kind of mixture now. Half of it is like a self-preservation thing and half of it is shyness. Then when I warm up, it's all good. Bad Sisters does this very clever thing of treading a line between sadness and comedy,

which again is a recurring theme in so much of your work. How do you know that you've got that right? Do you sometimes think in the writers room, oh, this is too dark? Yeah, all the time. I mean, Rob and I used to- Delaney. Yeah, Rob Delaney, who I made catastrophe with, definitely the same with Bad Sisters, like writing about an abusive relationship and like where you sort of, where and when you straddle the comedy, when you use it, when you avoid it, how long you go without getting a laugh, how quickly you can have a joke

directly after something terrible happening, which I feel like is a tricky thing to get right, but in life, it's almost immediate. You never really stop using humour as a defence mechanism or as a tool or as relief. It's just like relief, isn't it? To sort of laugh after something terrible has happened. Well, a thank you on behalf of everyone who's seen themselves represented on screen through your work. I think it's a very powerful thing. Let's get onto your first failure, however. Enough of the success. Your first failure is art college slash drama school.

So tell us about this and why you picked it. I found it really hard to do this, by the way. But that's always so lovely in a way for me to hear because it means that you know the podcast. I know that you've really thought about it. Yeah. Well, I mean, I chose it because it did really feel like my first failure was art college because I dropped out and like I didn't even see it through the first year. And at the time it was sort of, it was so important to get in and it took so much effort and plenty of places had turned me down. But eventually I got into the College of Marketing and Design in Dublin and I felt so out of

my depth from the off. I probably shouldn't have gotten in. I think I was sort of a late admission, so someone had sort of dropped out and there was a place, so I got in. And immediately I was aware that it was not for me. There were so many talented artists there. So I was in like, you know, I was the worst in the class and I couldn't deal with it. I found it really hard. I'd moved to Dublin and I moved into an apartment with two girls who were lovely, but I didn't really know them that well. I'd saved up. I'd worked in the summer working as a chamber

maid in London and in a few pubs in the evenings. You've had so many odd jobs. I didn't even know about the chambermaid. Oh yeah. I knew about the head shop in Camden. Yeah, chambermaid and barmaid in the evenings. Okay, sorry, interrupted. In the city as well. Being a barmaid in a pub in the city is not for the faint-hearted. Yeah, so I'd saved up all this money and, you know, starting out in this new adventure,

new flat, going to art college. And I. I knew as soon as I was there, I wasn't sure I was going to make it through. This is the beginning of my workaholic nature that I was doing. I'd got into this drama school at the weekends. I was doing art college all week and then doing drama at the weekends. So I was doing art college all week and then doing drama at the weekends. And it all just sort of, I don't know, I think it was also, you know, you're 19 and, you know, it's such a difficult time, isn't it? I don't know if you remember being 19, but it's a really tricky time. It just built up and built up and I kind of lost my marbles a bit. I got really depressed.

Yeah, I just started taking antidepressants, which is really, you know, I didn't know anyone who was doing that at the time. It was kind of not something people really spoke about. but I remember my mum just being like really worried and taking me to see a psychiatrist and got me on some antidepressants and I just dropped out. And I thought the only way I could get around that was just leave the country. Like, you know, this weird thing of like, if I just leave, no one's going to sort of notice that I've failed. So yeah, I went to London and yeah, just got a job and a job done. I'm so sorry you went through that because it sounds so lonely and I wonder if there was part of it for you having grown up as one of five with this incredibly tight and loving family unit

that felt at sea being apart from them? I don't know because my sister lived in, my sister was at Trinity College and she lived in Dublin at the time and you know, but I think it's just you get separated from your friends for the most part, don't you? Like usually you don't end up going to the same college as your besties. So they're all sort of scattered in Belfast and Huddersfield and going to these different unis. So it was like starting over without those friendships as well. And then I think it's just really tricky to feel like you're failing at something. I think it's really tricky to be in a situation where you feel like there was a mistake made

and you shouldn't be there. And then on top of that, it's just really difficult being a teenager. Yes. And you mentioned that your mother was worried about you. So, did you speak to your parents about it? Not really. I mean, I remember I came out of my coffee shop job and they were parked in whatever Toyota they were driving at the time. They were parked out the front and they never came up to Dublin. But it was kind of like a sort of intervention kind of thing.

Yeah. It was just a very tricky, weird time. Yeah. And I can feel it still now you talking about it. It sounds scary. It's weird because I haven't thought about it in so long. What's up Spotify? This is Javi. I remember this one time we were on tour.

We didn't have any guitar picks and we didn't have time to go to the store, so we placed an order on Prime and it got there the next day ready for the show. Whatever you're into, it's on Prime. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. The police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you, live. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canada.

This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. Download the free CBC News app or visit cbcnews.ca. When I went to London, I just thought, well, I'll get into, I'll do the drama school thing properly and do that. And then I'll, you know, prove myself and all that other stuff won't matter. But I applied to every drama school in London and went to all of them and auditioned and didn't get in. So I think that was the thing that sort of floored me a bit. I think that's why I sort of

ended up working in a job center for six years. Yeah. And how did you feel being told at that stage, oh, your dream is not for you? How did that feel? Well, I think the weird thing is that I probably just thought it was a dream anyway. I probably didn't think it was a real thing that I could ever do, so it probably made some sort of weird sense. And my reaction to it was to not go back to Ireland for two years. It seems so weird now. For two years, not even for Christmases, I was so like, oh, I'll just stay here and maybe no one will notice. I was also sort of plotting. I was also trying to figure out how I could turn it all around so that I could go back with some kind of pride.

I was actually my older sister who came to the rescue because she knew that I'd started writing. She put me in touch with a producer that she'd started making documentaries. She had a few contacts of contacts and inroads and stuff. And so she put me in touch with someone who was connected to comedy at the BBC and then I got in touch with them. And that's sort of what got the ball rolling a bit. And you went back home for Christmas? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we see at that stage, my little brother had started playing rugby for

Ireland and having this sort of high achieving family was amazing, but also sort of shone a light on me and my squad in London working in the job center. I was kind of a bit ashamed. I mean, that really drove me really drove me. Then reconnecting with Dennis Kelly and when we started writing together and filming stuff, we started actively being creative. He was also, by the way, in shit, shared accommodation, doing a job he hated. It's kind of like that's how pulling came about, you know, because we were both in these very unsatisfactory situations across the board, like bad relationships, not great housing situation and jobs we hated. But that's like, you know, we figured a lot of people would relate to that because a lot of people come to London to find their thing and sometimes you just get a bit lost in it. And the way we described it was, you're

in one of the greatest cities in the world, but you're in the shittest part with no funds to get to the good bit. I feel like if I'd had success very early, it would have been a completely different journey for me. Everything that happened went into the writing and whatever it is, this sort of dark way of looking at the world, but also finding it funny, sort of informed, informs everything I do. So really grateful all that. It's so true that it informs everything you do. And it's also kind of uncanny how your writing then tends to

reflect what happens in your life. Yeah. So pulling and then catastrophe, which was loosely based on you getting pregnant within six months of meeting your ex-husband and motherland, your experiences at the school gates and then divorce will come onto that, your show with Sarah Jessica Parker. And I know that when you were filming season two of Bad Sisters, your dad died. And I'm so sorry because he sounds like an amazing person. And so much of season two, from what I've seen of it is about grief.

Did you find that helpful or difficult or both? Definitely both. My little brother Mark, he sent me a text the other day because he just watched episode five. In episode five, it's Eva's story and how she's dealing with her grief. Then we have this karaoke scene where all the sisters get together and they think about Grace and they sing the song. All of that was filmed after dad died. Markey said that he loved the episode, but he found it really difficult to watch. And I was saying, well, because everything I was feeling went into those scenes. In some ways, it's great and it's cathartic and you can connect with your feelings and

you can express them. But in other ways, it feels so weird because essentially you're kind of using your emotions and it feels strange and a bit wrong. But I remember trying to explain this to someone, but when I was at my dad's funeral, I had this weird muscle memory that I'd sort of done it before. But you do when you're an actor, it's such a weird job. You know, you're experiencing, I mean, you're playing heartache, grief, all these sort of anger, extreme emotions, and you're sort of living them in that moment. You're putting your body under this incredible sort of strain. And that's what I was feeling at the funeral. I was like, I sat with an actor playing my dad dying, you know, before, and that really blew my mind. I was like, this can be a bit unhealthy, this job. It was weird going back to work. In the end, we had to shut down the production because I couldn't.

I'm going to get upset. Oh no, Sharon, there's tissues now. Okay. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. It's so weird. Yeah. Does that sound like a psycho thing to say that you've done this before? No, it sounds so deep. I guess just being together is such a huge part of the healing is just being together. Myself and Shane and Lorraine, after dad died, they're my two brothers and sisters that

are in London. We would just go and find these whatever shitty pub we thought my dad might really like and then just go to that pub and sort of drink some Guinness and talk about him and then just get on with our lives. It was the most intense awful thing. But we all got to be with him. We all were there, like all the family and all our partners and kids. And you know, so we had, you know, like a beautiful goodbye. I'm so sorry. And I think what you've said there about being together, being the healing is profoundly beautiful. Your second failure is an audition that you did for Jim Sheridan's The Field, a movie that came out in 1990.

So what stage are you at now in your career? Are you living in Camden? No, no. It was just before I left. It was just after that whole art college debacle. So I had this kind of wild boyfriend when I was 18. He got a car and a bunch of us were sort of driving around Dublin being lunatics. It's a terrible, terrible thing. But he was kind of wild and a risk taker. So this is terrible to tell this. I'm already in love with this story. I don't know. It's already taken a tangent. So it was a bunch of us in the back of the car and he was doing this sort of Russian roulette thing where he would drive, like there was this crossroads and he would like drive straight across without stopping and to get the buzz

of getting through without crashing or any cars coming along. It was actually really, really frightening, but he did it and we had such a relief. I remember just being in the car and just thinking, shit, we're still alive. That was insane. And we were all like sort of whooping. And then the car, he lost control of the car immediately after that and hit a wall and the car was accordion, whatever you call that. It was destroyed. And somehow we all got out of it. Relatively unscathed, except I had my arm was like entirely bruised. The whole thing was like the most glorious bruise you've ever seen. So I was sitting in a, you know, I was a bit of a hippie at the time, like kind of a bit like a bit grungy, but a bit hippie. And I had this huge

bruise on my arm and I was sitting in this coffee shop in Dublin, sort of trying to figure out how I could not go back to class. And, and then Jim Sheridan was in that coffee shop in Dublin, trying to figure out how I could not go back to class. And then Jim Sheridan was in that coffee shop and he came up to me and he said, I'm making this film. Would you come in and audition? So it was for this gypsy girl who was sort of female Lee but it was still like, it was all, it was like Richard Harris and John Hurt, like an amazing cast. So I guess I look kind of a bit like, you know, a wild gypsy. And I'd never, I mean, I thought about it, you know, but it was very much in the distance, sort of like a dream. And I couldn't believe that I was being given this opportunity.

So I completely overthought it. I'd never done an audition before. I was absolutely terrified. But he gave me the number of his producer who was like Noel Pearson, I think. I don't know. Maybe he went up to girls all the time and got the tops and offered them auditions, but I just kept calling this number. The more I couldn't get through or get a hold of anyone, the more

I was like, no, I'm going to do this thing. So anyway, finally I got hold of them and they sent me the pages and I turn up for the audition and I did it. And it went terribly. But I walked out of the audition. I was like, yeah, that's, I want to do that. What an extraordinary thing to happen. Yeah, it was wild. Weird things like that happened to me all the time when I was like yeah that's I want to do that. What an extraordinary thing to happen. Yeah it was wild. Weird things like that happened to me all the time when I was in Dublin. It was so bizarre. You were a bit of a witch. Yeah I mean maybe a little bit. The fact that that audition went badly did that make you sort of knew you wanted to do it but did it also sow the seed of wanting to write your own material so you wouldn't have to audition? No, no, not that. I mean, I'd already started writing a little bit here and there, but not

taking it too seriously. No, I think what it did was, I'm kind of like this even now, when something goes badly, I'm immediately like, right, I need to fix that. I need to get better at that thing. And for me never to be in that situation again, never to feel that sort of at my depth. So it makes sense to me now that I had that feeling off the back of it. And I think because of art college not working out and wanting to get away, I kind of thought,

well, maybe this is it. I go to London and that's when I tried to get into all the drama skills and stuff. I tried the Y for free and I never looked back. The instructors empowered me. The gym strengthened me the pool soothed me And the pickup games energized me The why is everything I needed it to be because the why is so much more than my gym Try the why free for seven days at try the why dot CA Texan Diane had it all. Until the night, neither of them wished to relive.

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Yeah. I mean, it's such a weird question to be asked now because if you'd asked me even a couple of years ago, and that's with a lot of shows under my belt and a successful production company and no reason to feel like I'm an imposter, but it really is very, very recent that I've allowed myself to feel like I know what I'm doing. There's a confidence there that I really appreciate actually because it's not great to be walking around feeling like you've sort of snuck in and well, no one's noticed so far that I'm sort of winging it. It's exhausting. It's much better to feel like you should be in those rooms. What's been behind that shift? Is that just time?

I think it is. I think it's like a body of work building up and affirmations, I guess, from people I admire. I suppose the people I've ended up working with and as part of Sisters really, that felt like quite a massive thing and then pulling it off. Us as a company had never made anything of that sort of size as well. This is your production company Merman, which we haven't even mentioned, which is a hugely successful production company that you co-founded in 2014. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing.

So it was a big confidence boost for us as a company and then for me personally. Yeah, I guess it's just that feeling of when I'm working on other people's projects and I've kind of found a really good balance of what I get very involved in. I feel like I know I can be additive. I know what I'm doing in each of those situations. And yes, it's much more relaxing than worrying all the time. I love hearing that. I love hearing that. The worry is still there. I mean, it's still like when I start a new project,

the fear and adrenaline is still there with that. But I think it would be so weird for that not to be there. And I'm not sure how much I'd benefit from that. You've got to feel like you're learning all the time. You have to be open to continue to learn, otherwise, I don't know, otherwise you're a monster. I don't know that that's what I'd ever want to be. I'm absolutely definite that I know it all and I'll have the last say. I don't think I'll ever be that person. I always really need input and other great creative people around me.

Definitely. That means you're not Donald Trump. So yeah. Your third failure is your marriage. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that'd be a fun one to throw in there. Yeah, so lovely. Well, we were chatting before we started recording about the fact that we're both divorced. And there is something I think radically important about people who are willing to say, my relationship was not a failure just because it ended. Yeah. But it did feel like a failure.

Talk to us about what, because you were together with your ex for many years, you have two wonderful daughters. Just talk me through the course of that relationship and how you both decided that it was the end. I guess it was one of those things that was a long time coming. And I feel like it's weirdly connected to confidence as well, or also that thing of what you should do versus what your body tells you and your brain tells you you ought to do. It's like the catastrophe story. We got together, we had a baby, and we made it work for a long time. We had another baby and he was involved in the business. But there came a point where it was so clear that it wasn't right for either of us. And it kind of, I guess,

you know, I don't know whether it's being slightly bit Catholic, some of that stuff still being in me was just that idea of not getting divorced or like you just, you don't get divorced. You just kind of, I'm probably talking to Rob about it. We're like, you know, our partners have to do something so, like, just stay in it. It's so much harder to go through all that, you know, to go through a divorce and listen. It's true. And weirdly, when I was making Divorce, the show, I hadn't gone through it. So I was kind of, you know, using other people's experiences and the idea that anyone who's been married knows what it's like to want

a divorce. But I had no idea. It's an odd one because I've never been happier, but I'm still angry at myself for not for the actually not really for the failure of the marriage, but for not figuring it out earlier. It's so destructive, I think. And I mean, you know, you get one life and that's an awful lot of time to spend on something that's not working. And I don't know what kind of conditioning it is that sort of got so in the way of what my instinct was and what would have been good for everyone. So it's a weird one because yes, it failed, but it had such a positive impact on my life. I think the stuff that's less fun is the business of divorce. It's debilitating, time-consuming, money-drain. It's not fun for anyone.

Do you find it being apparent in the wake of your divorce? Because that was something that I never had to deal with. I didn't have children with my ex and I often think that would be so... had to deal with. I didn't have children with my ex and I often think that would be so, the stakes are so much higher. So how is it being a co-parent? Oh, there's no co-parenting. It's just me. It was more sort of like how it impacted when we sort of told the girls and like I have this recurring image of my youngest daughter on her own crying. Like when she was crying with us, I think that's, you know, we were able to talk and talk it out and explain how it was going to be. But seeing she left and went into another room, that's going to stay with me forever. But three hours later, we were out shopping and life goes on and they're

so resilient. Kids are amazing. How they weather storms is incredible. I think what I'd sort of lost sight of was how important it is for them to see a working relationship, you know, like a healthy working relationship. And I'd sort of got things out of order, I think. In my head, it was like, you know, like, be a family because that's what you should be. And really, it's not. Family can be any sort of shape and size. And it's much, much better for them to see me happy and to be in a healthy environment. But they're great. to be in a healthy environment. But they're great. We're quite open as family and we talk it all out and we laugh about things and we just get on with it. And also park it as well, as much as possible because it's important that that doesn't sort of overshadow anything.

You know, it's just sort of is what it is. I don't know if you'll relate to this at all, but I'm sometimes asked about how you know that your relationship is over, like how you get to a point where you can dismantle this institution that seems to carry so much social expectation on it. And I felt that it took me a while to work out that I knew. And then one day it was like my body took over. It was just like the instinct just kicked in. And I didn't, it wasn't logic. It wasn't head thinking through everything. I just knew that it had to end. Was there a point that you felt like, oh no, this has to?

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, you know, because I'm sure we both thought about it for ages and had those conversations. We had those conversations for ages, but absolutely that. Yeah. There was a point. And then from that point on, there was no going back. Clarity. Yeah. And it's such a massive move to make that you do need that clarity in order to move forward with it. I kind of had an inkling that it was just going to take over for you as it did. You need full-on clarity that it's the right thing to do. I'm very struck by what you said at the beginning of this failure, which is that you feel angry

at yourself for not having called it sooner. That's being very harsh on yourself. Do you think that's the confidence school upbringing as well? Yeah, I think I am for a generally kind of happy person, I'm really good at dwelling on the wrong thing. So instead of the positives, I kind of look back and I'm a bit of a, if only, kind of person. No, I mean, I suppose it is being harsh, but I feel like I deserve it. Karen! Yeah, what an idiot. You're doing it again. Not an idiot. Like a lovable, flawed human who deserves compassion like all of the rest of us.

Yeah, I guess that as well. And you have your two amazing daughters. Oh no, I mean that's all. That's obviously. You don't have to tell me anything about it, but I just want to know if you're seeing someone romantically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Good. I mean, you can tell me stuff about it if you'd like.

No, that's okay. Just checking. It's been such a delight to talk to you. Thank you. And I wanted to ask you, sometimes I think this is the most boring question, but with you I don't think it is boring, but it's about what you're going to work on next. And the reason I don't think it's boring for you is because you have this history of predicting your own life or predicting what's in the cultural zeitgeist almost before it happens. So what's percolating at the moment in Horgan's brain? Well, I mean, it's sort of very beginning stages, but it is this stage of life because I'm building a show

around that because it's an amazing time in life, but it's also the most difficult. I feel like anytime I've written about a place and time in my own life, and it's like a kicking off point. It's an inspiration. It's not completely autobiographical, but I feel like it's a really good driver. I feel like I've got something to say about what it is to be a woman of my age in this particular situation. I love writing about relationships. It's my most favorite thing. I think they're so delicate and intricate and fun things to observe and write about. There's so many other things that I'm working on that are merriman things and I could give you much more solid

answers to things that are going to be on the telly, but that's the thing that's yeah percolating in my brain the most. Why don't you write a show about you being a billionaire and see if that comes true. It's a great idea. Have that for free. I think we've got enough billionaires though. We've got enough billionaires out there. Not enough female ones. That's true. Just talk to me quickly about your 50s, still only 54. Yeah, just the tender age. The tender age. What have they represented to you? Because obviously bad sisters and that feeling of confidence, that's part of your 50s. Just throw out a few words. What are your 50s like? Wow. I mean, they're definitely exciting and Way more exciting than I thought they'd be.

And the whole confidence thing is definitely something I didn't have in my 40s, which is weird because there's so many things that I genuinely and vainly get frustrated about. I hate when my knees hurt. I hate when I don't have... I mean, I've got so much energy. It's weird. I think hormones are driving me. I'm on everything. But I hate the visual representation of aging. It really bothers me because of natural vanity, but also because I don't feel like that. I'm sure everyone says this, but it's why the number feels weird because inside I'm just like, I have puppy dog levels of energy. So it's kind of scary. I would say scary as well. There's a weird connection with your mortality when you lose a parent as well. And you start thinking about things in a different way. And that's why I'm very kind of particular

about what I work on and who I work with and how I spend my time. I don't know, excited, choosy, scared. There's a few good words. And energised. And energised, yeah. Thank you. I can't wait for my Hawganesque 50s. Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. Thanks for having me.

And thank you for all that you do for women in particular and reflecting our experiences on screen. Thank you so much, Sharon Hawgan. Well, I don't feel like I deserve those thanks, but you're welcome. Bye!