HR BESTIES - Investigations 101 - Best Practices

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

Today’s agenda:  Going undercover Cringe corporate speak: ducks in a row Hot topic: All things investigations Why are investigations tough? Keeping the language more human How can we improve investigations? Don't fall for misinformation Questions/Comments  Your To-Do List: Grab merch, submit Questions & Comments, and make sure that you’re the first to know about our In-Person Meetings (events!) at https://www.hrbesties.com. Follow your Besties across the socials and check out our resumes here: https://www.hrbesties.com/about.  We look forward to seeing you in our next meeting - don’t worry, we’ll have a hard stop! Yours in Business + Bullsh*t,  Leigh, Jamie & Ashley Follow Bestie Leigh! https://www.tiktok.com/@hrmanifesto https://www.instagram.com/hrmanifesto https://www.hrmanifesto.com Follow Bestie Ashley! https://www.tiktok.com/@managermethod  https://www.instagram.com/managermethod https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyherd/ https://managermethod.com Follow Bestie Jamie! https://www.millennialmisery.com/ Humorous Resources: Instagram • YouTube • Threads • Facebook • X Millennial Misery: Instagram • Threads • Facebook • X Horrendous HR: Instagram • Threads • Facebook Tune in to “HR Besties,” a business, work and management podcast hosted by Leigh Elena Henderson (HRManifesto), Ashley Herd (ManagerMethod) and Jamie Jackson (Humorous_Resources), where we navigate the labyrinth of corporate culture, from cringe corporate speak to toxic leadership. Whether you’re in Human Resources or not, corporate or small business, we offer sneak peeks into surviving work, hiring strategies, and making the employee experience better for all. Tune in for real talk on employee engagement, green flags in the workplace, and how to turn red flags into real change. Don't miss our chats about leadership, career coaching, and takes from work travel and watercooler gossip. Get new episodes every Wednesday and Friday, follow us on socials for the latest updates, and join us at our virtual happy hours to share your HR stories. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Now, we have joked in previous episodes how when we started in HR, we had no idea of some of the shit we were going to have to see. Pun intended shit, literal figurative shit, right? Oh gosh, we had no idea what we were getting ourselves into or the things we'd see because these are things, a lot of things that people do not talk about. Have you ever done some like hardcore investigation where you felt like you were doing spy shit? Hell yeah. Yeah.

Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Yep. So I had a mission impossible type of experience, like doing something as an HR exec. I never thought I would do, right? So I can talk about this. I'm just letting you know, legal, I'm looking at legal here, the person with the legal background. I can talk about this, although of course, I'll protect people. But I had the experience where I was supporting a CEO who unfortunately was suffering with alcoholism

and substance abuse in the workplace. And so many people, myself included, had suspicions that he was drinking at work. But that is such a hard thing to prove. It really is, right? Because here's the head guy, and there's nobody else. You're on an island. And how do you move forward with that? How do you begin to investigate something like that? It takes a lot of bravery and courage sometimes to investigate tough things, but I had gotten the suspicion that perhaps he was drinking during a certain meeting each Okay. And so all Mission Impossible shit, he had left his drink on the conference room table or the board meeting table. And I took it and I drove an hour to a lab to have it investigated. Like how crazy is that shit? And I never thought I'd do that, but for his safety, our safety, and he was someone where, what's it called?

It escapes me, but they're functional. They're very, very functional. A functional alcoholic. Yeah, functional. Yeah. And there's no background or anything in a record. There's nothing, right? But you see that something's not quite right.

And he's losing credibility with the people and, ah, his health is tank see that something's not quite right. And he's losing credibility with the people and, ah, his health is tanking. Something's not right. So the lab came back and it was mouthwash and coffee. And so he had been ingesting and chugging mouthwash, right? So I had to remove him from the site. And I had to, with gloves, go through his office, like knocking on the floor, seeing if there's, you know, trap doors, sort of shit. Like, I'm talking every inch of the office and into his closet where there was just tons of mouthwash. And so that's what he was doing to be able to drink at work. And I just, you know, when I was getting into HR, again, so innocent with so much hope, I just had no idea that I would be reading like scientific

reports on nasty like fluid, like nasty ass fluid, right? And sniffing cups and on my I mean, boy, that was a doozy, but we made it through. But again, it takes a lot of courage to do that. Well, and then the question is, there's two issues. One is the employment, which I assume that ended. Yes. But then also, when you have those leaders at the top, it's who makes that decision? And then the other question is, who is the leader? And then the question is, who is the leader? And then the question is, there's two issues. One is the employment, which I assume that ended.

Yes. But then also when you have those leaders at the top, it's who makes that decision. And generally we've said HR does not tend to make decisions. You make recommendations or things like that, but someone else has to make that decision. And there's very few people when it's at the top. And then the other aspect that you can't control is you can control employment. Sure. You cannot control what that person does. And so such a sad situation that that decision leads to job loss, but then also you want

those people to get help. But there's such little that you can do. Generally cannot force them into that. And so it just ends up being so sad and you just have to hope that that is their bottom. Exactly. You know, and you wish that, gosh, we wish they would have disclosed or come to us, but you know, that didn't, that did not happen. In fact, there was no recognition that there was an issue or problem, you know. So sometimes you have to wish people the best, care for them as much as you can, but you also need to care for the employment of everybody else as well, and make sure that the business

stays in business and that people are safe, even just in their own parking lot. We owe that as a business, that people can come to work and go home in the same manner and one piece, that they walked in in the morning. It's tough making decisions like that. You and your own employment feels like it could be in jeopardy as well doing something like that. Sometimes it absolutely is. That was tough.

That took a while. None of those things are easy. I love what Ashley shared there. We make suggestions. we use data, we do investigations as HR. It's very rare that we're the sole decision maker on anyone's termination. And so here, the head guy that would make a lot of those decisions, what the hell do you do, right?

Oh, you work through it. What's 2FA security on Kraken? Let's say I'm captaining my soccer team and we're up by a goal against, I don't know, the Burlington Bulldogs. Do we relax? No way. Time to create an extra line of defense and protect that lead. That's like 2FA on Kraken, a surefire way to keep what you already have safe and sound. Go to kraken.com and see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer for info on Kraken's undertaking

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Cringe Corporate Speed comes first and Jamie is up at bat for that today. And then we will shift into, guess what? All things investigations. So maybe I shared that story on purpose. So our meeting hot topic today is all things investigations. Investigations 101. We'll talk a little bit about why they're painful. We kind of just did in the water cooler talk. Talk about how they're a necessary evil. But yet we, business leaders and HR leaders, can make it a better experience. So we'll certainly

share some of our best practices. Jamie, what do you got? Ducks in a row. Aw, quack, quack. So it's definitely cute. It is. It's cute. It's still a little cringy, though, when I hear it. When you hear a grown man say, let's get our ducks in a row. I'm like, aw.

You think a little one's waddling around. Oh, this one keeps going in circles. Come on, you. This is definitely a palate cleans around. Oh, this one keeps going in circles. Come on you. This is definitely a palate cleanser. Yeah, I feel- From our water cooler talk. But Ashley, I think you said you brought up the origins of it.

Yeah, when we were talking about this, you were talking before the meeting. So of course I was on my phone looking up other things. Of course. And the origin does date back to the late 19th century when it was used in the world of fairground shooting galleries was the main origin. And, you know, some other people have said, oh, it's also like a mama duck leading their ducks. But I love those fairground shooting, shooting galleries because

I like the ones now, not with, I guess, not with those, those things, but bullets, but with the water where you do the cause being from Kentucky, I like the ones that are a horse race. And you know, the, you're, it's, you know, two or more people and you're always looking for more people to join at the fair. Cause then your prize will be bigger when you win, if you win, when you win. And so I love those, those games, but I like that origin. Oh, that is cute. And I can see it, right? Like the image is there.

So the cute little ducks and at least then this cringe corporate speak is precious. Yes. It is fresh. It's cute. And I definitely used it. Yeah. Let's get our ducks in a row, people. Yeah.

Yeah. Let's get our shit together a row, people. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get our shit together. You know, people give you that advice if you're speaking and they say, imagine people in their underwear. That's never worked for me whatsoever. It just makes me giggle, like, make a cringe face. But if you imagine your leaders saying, let's get their ducks in the row and like all your leaders playing the duck, duck, goose or something like that, that can humanize.

If you're nervous to talk to the board or you're anybody at work, you're VP, district manager, just imagine them sitting around playing duck, duck, goose, and that can ease the nerves. So we'll allow this one, right? Or no. I mean, this one's cute. I'm okay with this one. Yeah, it's cute.

Yeah. Everyone worked us in today, if you can. It's cute. Let's get our ducks in today, if you can. It's cute. Let's get our ducks in a row. Come on, people. Oh, all right. Shifting gears, meeting hot topic, all things investigations. Maybe we kick off by talking about why they are so painful and difficult, as if the water

cooler talk to begin this meeting didn't totally Symbolize that in a nutshell. Yeah, that's why are they so tough? I think it's I know it's It's tough on it's tough on everybody for HR total and we're gonna actually put the human perspective in it for a second But if you're in HR and you're sitting there and you look and you have your daily or weekly list of to-dos, you've got so much shit you have to do, all of a sudden an investigation comes in and you're like, oh my God, because frequently, however much time you're budgeting for it to take, it's going to end up taking more. So that's a hard aspect because someone's got to be working on it. You're going to have a role, whether you're investigating, whether you're working with

an outside investigator, inside person, it's going to take things up and it needs to take priority. And so it can be really hard to like add to that mental and physical load of everything you have to do. And you know, it's going to be unpleasant because you're going to be hearing things that make you uncomfortable, having conversations, managing up and having those interviews. You may know someone's lying to you. you're trying to have a face, but also for employees, which can include HR because HR can have their own concerns at work.

It's hard because you're someone that is going and telling something that's happening at work that's so problematic. You don't feel comfortable handling yourself and that person is likely very afraid. So the person that's coming to you or you if you're having to do this, there is such a place of fear of people not believing you, of ultimately nothing happening to that person and you have to continue working together and they know that it's you. And so I think the fear is what really grounds it as far as what I've seen. What about you all? Well, I always, you know, think about the relationships I have within the

office, right? Like remember, HR professionals are employees too. And so for me, what makes investigations or back in the day, it's been a while since I've done one. But what makes them so difficult is because I potentially have to go into an office of someone I consider an acquaintance, a trusted peer, and be like, okay, I have to be HR lead now. Why did you forget your pants? I have to have a sensitive conversation that again, like Ashley said, could be really uncomfortable with someone that perhaps I work very closely to. And memories, man, people remember those conversations and they're like, ooh, it can really affect

your relationships, your working relationships with people. So for me, that's what's always made them kind of tough, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's uncomfortable even if you're not necessarily acquaintances, just because sometimes depending on the level of the investigation, kind of like you stated earlier in your story, Lee is just that even if that was just an acquaintance or just your working peer, it was still uncomfy, right? Because that was a problem that the person was struggling with, trying to hide.

And now we have to talk about it. And now we have to bring it to light. We have to, you know, do an investigation, quote unquote. And I would say, where do you start with an investigation? So what happens first? So typically I would say for me, a lot of people start with red flag words, right? They know what those red flag words, retaliation, harassment, there's like specific words, right? That if you're going to say them to an HR professional, our ears are going to perk up, right? But that doesn't necessarily always say full investigation, right?

But that's a lot of times that's where we're going to start, right? And then at that point, we're going to need detailed notes of what you're alleging or the circumstance. And then we're going to need to know who all is involved. Is there witnesses? Who else do I need to speak to? Is there a leader or a manager aware? Then you're going down the rabbit hole of talking to numerous employees.

That might turn into even more because so-and-so is going to mention so-and-so. The next thing you know, you've gone down another rabbit hole of 10 or 15 more people. Each of these, you're taking meticulous notes. And then you, the HR professional, have to figure out what makes sense, what aligns, what doesn't align, and where we go from here. Do you ever wish that you had an HR legal bestie in your pocket? 650 is just that. Your trusted, always available ally for your employment law questions, minus the hefty

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Yeah. I think thinking about some best practices and what people may not be aware of. And I, as a lawyer and lawyer in HR, I've done trainings for, often HR, I mean, and people often say, who does the investigation? Okay, so let's start with that. Who do you think should do the investigation? Okay, so let's start with that. Who do you think should do an investigation? Well, I mean, if it's not against HR. HR.

Not me. Not me. Not it. Possibly legal. I mean, you may have to get legal tagged in at some point in the process, depending on if there was a keyword used, sexual harassment or whatnot, discrimination? Yeah.

I've always partnered with legal counsel, which has always been great. I've had that luxury in my career, but it has always, the investigations have always been assigned to an HR pro within the business that, depending on what is being alleged, perhaps they have a little distance there, they can be objective. I've seen at times in organizations, we'll kind of triage it a bit, where as lawyer I've handled ones if they're, you know, certain certain levels. I like generally investigations done internally rather than externally. Reason is I do think it's, it becomes a thing. It can become a, it become a real thing and a swirl when all of a sudden you have this

outside investigator coming in. And sometimes it's, it is necessary, especially, you know, like I said, if it's within like all within an HR function or if there's something that's going to need to be reported externally, like if it's one of those, the Me Too situations that were so big. Just having worked in a law firm, the people often I have been assigned to investigate as a junior law firm lawyer, I am much more equipped having worked for years in within organizations than I was as a junior, like a junior person.

But I do think having someone do it internally can help have those conversations. What do you call it? Do you always call it an investigation or things like that? Yeah. Yeah, I have. I always have. Do you have a fancy name? Yes, actually, I guess I do.

Little Looksy. I'm going to have a little looksy. I'm going to look under the hood here. Language is powerful. Like we talk about in the podcast. It is. And so even things like complaint, I don't always say complaint. Some of this has been through training and at times I kind of probably was like, oh,

you're overthinking this. But I actually, I try to bring the lens always of the person who's bringing that up and the person whose employment may be at stake in both sides. And often the person whose employment may be at stake is like is that's probably more lawyer me thinking about that. I just want to I just want to be mindful that that they're not going to come back and be like, you know, you never spoke to me. You never spoke to me or this wasn't fair.

But so from a language perspective, I generally call it a concern, not a complaint. Complaint just feels it's like feels like a supervisor compared to like manager or leader. I call it generally review. Like we're going to look at like look into this. I don't call them witnesses. I'll say like, okay, other people like who heard these things, who said these things. I don't tend to use like, and that's from me having been a lawyer. I think when you start using that terminology that feels really formal, it puts people at back. And then also if nothing happens as a result of it, it feels like the OJ acquittal

where it's like, you know, people are like, it's, I do feel like it feels like a court proceeding. And so for me, I've backed off of my legal terminology and tend to use more human language. I think that's a really good call. Yeah, I've never heard that. Yeah, I haven't either. Every org has been very formal about it. It's almost like they want to say, which I don't blame, I'm like, this is a huge deal. But then to your point,

Ashley, that really bites us in the ass when really, well, there was no action to take because there were no findings and now all the witnesses want feedback. You make it so formal and legally, just as an internal looksie, that there's lots of expectations around that because of the power of the language. That's a good point. Damn. And when lawyers do it, there's a thing in the US called the upjohn warning. This comes from a Supreme Court case called upjohn. But you have to actually give a warning.

And again, you'll find very formal ones. But basically it means like, Hey, I am the lawyer for the organization, not you. And so please know that. And that's when you're talking to witnesses, anybody. And so if you, when you have lawyers as well, it just, again, you're, you're like adding more language to it. And again, it, like, it feels like you're like, okay, do I have the right to remain silent? Exactly. Miranda writes. Yeah. Or people frequently would say, do I need my own lawyer? And as a lawyer for the organization, you really can't be telling someone no, you don't. But like they generally don't if you're just like, okay, just having a quick conversation. But it just creates those, that's why I think, so I've actually

liked that and not to take away from the seriousness of it and when there are more serious things, I tend to escalate it. But often it's like a concern, not a complaint, those things. Okay, what is the first, if someone raises a concern or complaint, what is the first thing that they should hear? You're fucking crazy. The first thing that concerned party. Jamie.

Well, let's get our ducks in a row. Okay. So I've made an appointment with Jamie and Lee, my dual HR business partners together. HR team. Yeah. I always say thank you. You walked exactly right into what I wanted to hear. Okay, good.

I was like, thank you for bringing this into my attention. Good job, Jamie. Thank you for telling this into my attention. Good job, Jamie. Thank you for telling me your concerns. Because if you're in an auto accident, if you have your insurance card, I don't know if it still does, but my insurance card on the back was like, don't say anything if you're in an accident. Don't admit liability.

And so, I'm like, okay. But when people raise that concern, I know, and this often comes from lawyers. I've worked as a management-side employment lawyer. You're not wrong that people can absolutely cause liability to the organization. For example, if you say, oh my God, this is bullshit, we will get rid of this person, and then you don't. That makes things worse. You probably would have been better just sitting there and nodding and shooing them out of your office at that point, I guess. But people say, well, if you say, I'm sorry, that admits liability. No, it does not. No, it does not. Or thank you. Thank you. And there's ways you can say these that have, like just bring a human lens to it. And it's just

knowing if that person has come to you, they likely have had this in their mind for days, weeks, long, and they've stood on, and they're so afraid that you're not gonna believe them, nothing's gonna happen. And so that's, as I've had investigations or reviews, and that's the one thing I think that can put people's minds at ease. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely the empathy, right?

I love that. Well, you know, thank you for trusting me with telling me this. What about if you start talking to people and they're like, OK, go talk to these. Let me give you a list of 70, 70 other people within the plant. You should go ahead and probably talk to everyone. And I especially as a junior lawyer, I once had that work like super talk to every person. And I'm like, I mean, I need to meet my billable hours.

And like I had never, I mean, I need to meet my billable hours. But I had never had the training until later when I actually had a partner that talked to me through how to not push back, but have a sieve of who you need to talk to, if you don't. And then so often you should have people that you can speak to as thought partners. How do you structure the investigation? And if they're like, go talk to everybody, do you just do that because Because you're so afraid if you don't and it doesn't go their way, then-

Hell no. I ain't got time for that. Well, I want to know the key players, right? So if this is a complaint, I want to know, one, was this a one-time thing? Was something said in the vicinity? Was there people that also witnessed this? So I want to talk to them. Is there a history of this? I want to talk to the people that also, you know, obviously depending on the concern, I want to speak to other people who maybe also had this concern, but didn't voice it to HR, but maybe voiced it to this coworker that is now coming to me. So didn't voice it to HR, but maybe voiced it to this coworker that is now coming to me. So I want to know who's the closest and or has witnessed it. That's who I want to speak to. I think it's also sometimes important. I'm just thinking back on some of the investigations.

I sometimes like to get neutral parties too, to kind of get like, what's your take on this type? Or you saw the fist fight breakout, or who was instigator? But neutral parties, I think, are also important to kind of throw in there as well, to kind of get a different perspective. Yeah. Not every investigation or concern, but a lot of them, when I would get kind of that laundry list, right, of people to talk to, I've definitely had that where there's like 50 people on there. My question was always, well, who was there? So I would delineate or be like, okay, these were the actual witnesses, potential witnesses. These ones here, okay.

And these are what? Character witnesses for you, okay. And these are what? People in your department that may have had similar, you know, so like I would kind of write those out that way because sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes people would use a certain event, a certain concern to do a pile on. They will have years of issues and complaints, whatever, experiences, and they want to bring it all in. It's like, okay, well, we're focused on this one event right here. Let's focus on this

one event right here. At least to start, I got to start somewhere. This is the potential hostile work environment event that you're claiming or whatever happened. Let's focus on this one thing because people will use that as an opportunity. Okay, we're going to throw the kitchen sink at this shit. This guy needs fucking fire. So I'm just going to pile on. They're like, okay, I'm done with this shit. I can't take it anymore. And it's just like, yeah, they're fed up, right? Well, it's like we were flying on a very well-known Atlanta based airline about 20 years ago.

We were sitting out on out when we landed for about an hour before we got to the gate, there was not a gate available. And my husband, Dan, wrote a letter about this and his first draft was, I was reading this and then it kind of had related topics. All of a sudden we started talking about the frequent flyer program and a lot of feedback. So to please point, I think about that letter often because it's like an employment investigation. But a lot of people on social media in particular will say, like, never trust, never trust HR. Never go to HR. I'll say my caution to this is, and this is a bit of a uniquely American perspective, but in the US there are

certain things that if you get to a point especially for things like harassment and you're going to bring a legal lawsuit, which there is a huge, huge floor ceiling, whatever it is, to bring legal claims of that. You will be shocked when you look at what happens in the workplace that is not deemed to be legally sexual harassment, depending on where you are in the case law. It's like the worst, worst environment, but it's like summary judgment for the employer. And so just knowing that. But if when you do otherwise have a legal claim, if you haven't exhausted your internal channels, meaning your organization has a policy and it said, go to this person and you never went to that person, you followed a TikToker that told you not to trust people,

and just then that can create ultimate issues. On the flip side, also organizations that have these policies, you have to follow through with them. That's why things like having investigations, that if you have this policy, all fine and good, you've paid someone for it, but then people bring complaints and nothing ever happens, you likewise are going to create real issues for themselves. I don't want this to become a legal thing, but those are things to know that there's a lot of misinformation out there. And so I do think no matter what, for organizations, that when you have questions about these, your local employment council often can be that playwright for you and tell you things

to know and keep in mind, even if you're running that internally. So for you all, one complaint you get a lot is people saying, well, either I did this and I never heard back, which is, so that's one issue, I guess. And then the other is I did this and nothing happened to the person. Then they, they iced me out, things, things like that. What do you all think? So the reality is, is that it's not illegal to be an asshole, right? And that's what you're getting at Ashley, right? And Ashley. I've told that to people. It's not illegal to be a creep. It's not illegal to be an asshole. Sometimes when you're looking at something, there may not be grounds. Yes, that thing occurred, but it didn't breach.

It didn't break a rule. You all just may not get along. And sometimes that happens, which is unfortunate. Maybe counseling or coaching is the solution. Maybe there are actions that are being taken that honestly are none of your business person that made the concern, because now we're talking about someone else's employment. And so you don't need to know all the intricacies and all of this, but I'm always going to follow up as best practice to let you know that here is what I found high level, right? And I am taking action. We are taking action. Like something

is happening. It has been closed. It has been resolved. Like whatever you can communicate based on whatever the issue is, right? Because all gray. Follow up with something. Never leave anyone hanging. Timeliness of these things is so critically important. You may have some crazy financial concern or investigation that could take however long, okay, fine. But most could be done in a couple of weeks. They should be. But most could be done in a couple of weeks, and they should be. Just please try and shift priorities, focus, and do the due diligence. Do the due diligence, see it through, and absolutely follow up. Because in the absence of that information, you see people are going to fill in the absolute worst.

They're going to assume nothing happened, and they're going to say it like nothing happened. Even though you did all that work, and you know a whole shit ton of stuff happened and is happening and will continue to happen, but no one knows that. It's just, hey, nothing happened. It's important to close these out and be open about it. I also like to remind people that I cannot disclose if there was disciplinary action, because a lot of people will in my lifetime of HR, you know, well, did they get written up? Well, I can't tell you that.

You know what I mean? There was action taken and that's what I can tell you. This is confidential and that is what you need to know. Well, and I think this is where I think having an employment counsel can be helpful on these, because there's times you can tell somebody. But what you can also say in that lens is to say to people, and this is what often you may get this from the witnesses as well that are like, am I going to find out? Are you going to follow up with me?

And say, well, I will, you know, if we have any questions, ultimately you may not know, you may not just out of the confidential situation, we're just trying to understand what happened and we don't want to escalate this beyond anything else. If there's something that you need to know, we will definitely let you know. We just want you to know we don't communicate with you further. We appreciate you talking, these things were just like, if anyone's having concerns, we want to keep it as limited

as possible. And people tend to, okay, like that tends to make sense. When you have that person who's raised that concern and they don't hear anything, hearing things like I can't tell you, or it's like, it can feel hard. And so one way I had someone, I've used, I've adopted this, I didn't come up with this, but she, the way she said it, she'd say, whatever the consequences, sometimes they're visible and sometimes they're invisible. Visible can be things like losing a job.

There are a lot of invisible things that you may not see, but we have taken actions to make sure that this does not happen again, and I want you to know you have our support. That visible, invisible, I've used it. It's tended to resonate with people. That's one that can put it in that language that still lets the person know, I got you. I like that. That's good. Look at you, knowing your shit.

Well, this is an area that I have had, especially in the legal world. Legal investigations are also, again, there's a reason I don't like lawyers doing that. Nobody wants to talk to a lawyer. It feels super formal reason I don't like lawyers doing that. Like nobody wants to talk to a lawyer. It feels super formal. And often it's, you know, it's, I do think it's an area where people generally need some more, some more training. So I do have a toolkit on investigations, organizations, so there we go. But it's, I just think it's having that human lens, but that's, I think from the start to

the finish, thanking the person that brought them. And even at times, we will get that also comment on social media, if someone doesn't bring it in good faith. That can happen, but if you have your own playbook of following these generally, you'll be okay. Yeah. No one wants to meet with legal. That is probably the scariest, way scarier than HR.

But I think my favorite part about this episode, Ashley, is you talking about giving the advice on not taking random TikToker attorney advice on not sharing your concern with your organization because you can't trust HR. Bullshit. Everyone has jobs in an organization. HR has a job in the organization. It is typically the one that receives a concern and does an investigation. Bring me what's bothering you. Allow me the opportunity to keep you and the organization safe. I can't do anything if I don't know about it. I just fucking can. Give the organization, give me the opportunity to fail you and get it on the record that I failed you. Duh. That's going

to make a stronger case. Instead, if you don't share anything, it wasn't that big a deal to you. That's what that shows to me. That that's what employment counsel will say to you. I think you alluded to that, Ashley. You go to external employment counsel, they're going to be like, you never raised this concern? You never gave anyone a chance to help you? You've just been suffering this whole time? And now what? You want them to pay you out?

For what? Like how? It doesn't work like that. Please give us an opportunity to help keep you safe and advocate for you. We are not your counsel. Guess what? I'm not counsel for the business either. But we all work for the same organization. If you have an issue, it's also your job to protect the organization and company as well as yourself. That's what's crazy. People like, HR is just there to protect the business. Every single

employee is literally paid to protect the business. So the business stays in business. Every single employee, not just HR. I didn't have a class on that bullshit. Are you kidding me? Come on. No. You're making that assumption. It kills me. It's your job too. And I think that's what's so frustrating because obviously we are on the socials and we're trying to dispel this HR myth, right? But then you see someone pop up in your algorithm, similar to Ashley sent us one just the other day. And she was spewing hate about HR, never go to HR, just goes directly to your lawyer and exactly what you said, Lee. But you know, what's funny is I got in those comments because I couldn't help myself. And I

asked her, I said, what are you? She was the VP of Ops, never worked one day in HR. So why I say that is because I know that maybe your Uncle Bob got fucked over down at the plant or wherever he worked because he showed his penis and then he got fired. And that sucks. Uncle Bob was a pervert. FYI. Okay. Yeah, that sucks for Bob. But the VP of Ops preaching about a job that she's never worked a day in her life is insanely frustrating for us HR content creators when we're trying to actually, you know, this podcast is the reason we have it is so that we're able to tell you what we do in HR and why we do it and that we are two employees of the company. I mean, that's where we in as organizations hear these things and you want your HR to

know what to do. So have your ducks in a row to have a good... Yeah! Finally, finally, finally. You did it. No, actually. the best in Canada financial assistance program. UCC, a place where tradition, excellence, and innovation meet. Learn more at our open house events on October 15th and 16th. Register now at cause and effect.ucc.on.ca. I'm Natalie Barbou, host of the RealReal Podcast,

where we go behind the highlight reel to find out what's really going on in the lives of content creators, entrepreneurs, and everyone in between. After quitting my corporate job to start my own businesses, I realized that while things might look glamorous on our Instagram feeds, things can get real behind the scenes. You can listen to The Real Real every Monday to start off your week with some realness and inspiration. Find my podcast wherever you're listening right now and be sure to rate, review, and subscribe so you never miss a beat.

and be sure to rate, review, and subscribe so you never miss a beat. Oh, gosh. Love it. Shall we shift to questions and comments? What do we think? I have a comment. I don't know if you've ever had this happen, but when I started the episode by talking about 4-HR, why it can be hard is you have a full plate. Someone's got a complaint. But the best is if the complaint is something like, this person's been cooking fish in the kitchen. And you're like, you know what? OK, that is a good point. You can deal with it swiftly because you have this sense of this between when you hear a complaint, OK, you got a concern, I will review your concern.

But when you know it's going to be an easy one and you're like, I can make this right. It's like Jamie buying the micro. I'm going to also buy some new microwaves, just like Jamie did for her organization. She talked about previously because we got to get the fish stunted out, but there is sometimes it was nice when you're like, I, I can actually resolve this on my own. And I will spend like a 24 hour period without getting witnesses. Like, yeah, you can just yell loudly. Does anybody else want Bob to stop?

I approved. Thank you. Investigation complete. Right. Which is probably 80%, I'd say, of concerns, right? It's rare, really, to have big investigations, maybe 90% even. It's typically just people unable to have a conversation with one another. That's what I see a lot. And this is why also, I've worked with some people I've really found inspirational, I know it sounds corny, but have really good approaches. And so even as strictly as a lawyer, when I wasn't in HR, I had a senior colleague who would have so many conversations to empower someone to have the conversation on their own and handle it on their own. So we never got involved because that adds that layer.

And so that is another thing that you can really do often is helping someone help them themselves and be their playwright. Let them learn. Jamie, what do you got? Anything? Yeah, I was just going to say, thinking back on some of the wild investigations that I've done and truly being like the FBI and that I think that's why I'm so good now at finding shit on people on social media and stuff. You leave a shitty comment on me. I'm like, Ashley, I'm going deep.

I know how. I have the skills, motherfuckers. Right? Honey badger. Y'all are nuts. You two are nuts. I got my ducks in a row, bitch. We'll have to look back to the future as a family.

And, you know, Michael J. Fox is whatever his character's name is, is has the trigger if someone calls him a chicken. And I think that's my mine and James trigger. If someone is like James is if someone's mean to your friend. Mine is also like misinformation. If you are wrong, if you are wrong and rude about it, then I will... I made the video about Australia, and someone said, but I talked about work-life balance in Australia,

and someone from the US's response was to write a comment saying, what great innovations has Australia come up with the last few decades? And I made a video on exactly that, the numerous, numerous innovations they've made. So, Hemsworth Brothers and beyond. Oh, I know, that's a good one. Y'all are crazy. Oh, man. They do go deep, though. They go deep. I'm grateful for them because I didn't have anyone in my life like that. Who's crazy? Level of cray. Yes. Not with the internet searching or information seek out or, you know what I mean?

Helpful crazy. Totally helpful. Crazy in a precious way, like endearing way what I mean? Helpful crazy. Totally helpful. Helpful crazy. Crazy in a precious way, like endearing way. I mean it lovingly. Yeah. Like I'm searching for your mugshot to send to your employers. I call it crazy with an eye. Crazy with an eye because it's like cute crazy.

Yes. Yes. I love that. Oh, it is like crazy with an eye. Oh, totally. Oh gosh. Well, not a question, but a quick comment from me, which is just a short story, right?

So long story short or short story long, the way I tell stories. We have people give us feedback that, oh gosh, thank you for your contents. And I learn a lot. Gosh, you all really know your shit and all of this. Well, be mindful that we've all had 20 years in the business. All that shit we know that helps our credibility is through actual experience. But none of us just started out knowing all this shit, right? And so just quick example when it comes to investigations, I'll never forget, I was in

my first full-time corporate job and I was working labor relations. And so part of my job was to investigate the grievances that would come in. And in part of my grievance investigation, I had to have a meeting with a steward and an employee who was represented. And then it's just me. And this is in a union environment, for those that don't know what that means. Correct. Hardcore.

Yeah. Union represented employee. And per the book, right? Per the contract. It was time to let this person go. This grown man sat across from me and was weeping because lightning had struck his house. His house blew up and that's why he missed his 10th day of work or whatever, no call, no show sort of situation that he was in.

He was at step seven, holy shit, whatever. So many steps. And he cried and he cried and he cried and he groveled, literally begged me not to terminate him and give him one more chance, which would have been a step outside contractual obligation. I allowed it. Instantly, the tears kind of stop. He's collecting himself. I get up and I say, well, I'm going to go get the papers drafted. Let me get them off the printer, whatever I said. And I walked out. Well, when I turned and looked, I

saw him give his steward a high five. And I am so thankful for that moment, having occurred so early in my career, because it taught me that precedence matters. And there's a lot of equality and equity in the process that you have to trust. And again, we talk about heartless decisions. That grown ass man also had so many opportunities to do right by himself and chose not to. That's not on me that he was terminated. Eventually he fucked up, right?

But you know, so I made it about me and I quote, saved him. And that was not the right decision for the business and its people and everybody else to have a poor performer next to them making the same and whatever, you know what I mean? Like, so I'm just so thankful. I just wanted to share that, right? That we go through these moments in our careers.

If you're paying attention, they're going to teach you an awful lot that will affect the rest of your career and even your life and how you deal in certain situations. So I just wanted to share that. No one's perfect. You got to learn how to do these jobs, you know? But fuck that guy. Yeah. He was like high five, like I got her. My first I was like, oh, I thought it was a good thing.

Like, oh, he felt so good about it. No, I know. He high fived instantly. Waterworks gone, high five. Like, yeah, I fucking screwed her. What a dick. Yeah. And I just watched that and was like, got it. Like instantly. I got it. All right. See? Nope. No. And it wasn't me being a hard ass. It was me like, okay. Yeah, no realizing.

Nope, he signed up for that. He pays due for that. I need to honor that contract. He believes in. Shame on me going outside a contract and a promise on what he really wants, process-wise. You know what I'm saying? Like I got all existential.

Anyways, precedence matters. And you learn a lot. You'll learn a lot, especially if you're paying attention. Fucking people though, man. What a dick. Oh, God. People be peoplein'. People be peoplein'. Damn.

Well, on that note, shall we hard stop it? Get the hell out of here. Get some lunch. Let's go.