HR BESTIES - Toxic Positivity

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

Today’s agenda:  Thick skin is a prerequisite for HR… Cringe corporate speak: Too many balls in the air Hot topic: Toxic Positivity What does toxic positivity mean? Toxic Positivity in leadership Building trust and connection with employees Questions/Comments  Your To-Do List: Grab merch, submit Questions & Comments, and make sure that you’re the first to know about our In-Person Meetings (events!) at https://www.hrbesties.com. Follow your Besties across the socials and check out our resumes here: https://www.hrbesties.com/about.  We look forward to seeing you in our next meeting - don’t worry, we’ll have a hard stop! Yours in Business + Bullsh*t,  Leigh, Jamie & Ashley Follow Bestie Leigh! https://www.tiktok.com/@hrmanifesto https://www.instagram.com/hrmanifesto https://www.hrmanifesto.com Follow Bestie Ashley! https://www.tiktok.com/@managermethod  https://www.instagram.com/managermethod https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyherd/ https://managermethod.com Follow Bestie Jamie! https://www.millennialmisery.com/ Humorous Resources: Instagram • YouTube • Threads • Facebook • X Millennial Misery: Instagram • Threads • Facebook • X Horrendous HR: Instagram • Threads • Facebook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So there are some departments that if you go into them, you have to have really thick skin. NHR is one of them. And as a lawyer, employment law was also one of those. So I used to be a big reader of Us Weekly, like huge. I would read it every Friday when it came, all this. But you know what, I could stop reading that when I became a lawyer and my first job as a summer associate, meaning between my first and second years of law school, I worked at a law firm and did employment law and had to work on briefs, meaning legal documents.

And what that's like when someone brings a lawsuit is someone brings a lawsuit and says, this thing happened. And then both sides do discover it, which means someone's a lawsuit and says this thing happened, and then both sides do discover it, which means someone's like, show me all the documents, give me all the documents. So lawyers have to, especially like the lower level lawyers, we have to read through, or some associates are not lawyers, have to read through all these documents. So this case in particular was one about gender discrimination in the workplace.

And I was reading about it, and I started out and read the complaint and the complaint talked about that it was pervasive and that there basically weren't enough rules. And so there was locker room talk. Well, you know, sometimes in the HR complaint, people may say there's locker room talk and you don't think to ask, what specifically do you mean?

That's an important thing to understand. But you gotta brace yourself because you're gonna hear the realities of things. And so I was reading through this, this Law Student Game Ready, and I had to do all this research. And the locker room talk was some things like morning shows that were degrading to women. And then it was things like using the bitch, you know, men, these men call me bitch. And then it was like, they also sent emails. And I'm so, I'm so, I'm going through at this point, reading through depositions. And so they're in reading the deposition and they're like, well, what happened there? They sent around inappropriate emails to lawyers and this other lawyer.

Oh, well, I'm sorry. I have to ask you what that means. You know, generally. Okay. Well, they sent one with an inappropriate picture. Okay. What was that picture? Well, it was a woman giving a job to a horse.

And I read it and I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And I'm reading on and I was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And I'm reading on and I'm like, oh my God. And they're like, I'm like reading the next question. They're like, okay, do you have any copies of that, of that email? But thankfully the woman said, no, I don't. I did not. I was like, you wanted to see a picture?

No, no, no. But it is like, there are some, and I just remember reading that and immediately thinking to myself, I can probably cancel my subscription to Us Weekly. Oh, because the gossip. Because then you read this. I mean, you read, and so the thing is also as a lawyer when you're working on things, what you have to do is you have to give an example of something. Oh, you have to say it.

As if you're in court and you're pretending like this isn't a completely uncomfortable thing to say, spell it out and give examples of other things that have happened to compare them with these things. And so you'll be like, well, this case, this person touched someone on the ass and this and this, and all the terminology. And so you got to know. And so that happens as a lawyer, but also in HR, when you hear those concerns, you have to steel yourself. And that is a really important part of HR training is the type of complaints that you're going to get and the stuff that you're going to hear in the workplace. And that was about, you know, that was 20 years ago. And so now I think with social media and the pictures and all those things and the videos,

it's probably worse. And so that's one thing that I definitely did not anticipate going into law school. But I think a lot of people in HR have no idea of the stuff that you're about to see, including things that pop up on work emails and work computers. Yeah. So you never came across fleshlight in a case? No, never.

Never. So you just learned that term, or what we call it. I just learned it. I just learned it. And then of course, you know, like everything, and my boss called this doublet. I don't know if that's like the official term, but like when you see a word and learn it,

and then you immediately see it somewhere else. Yeah. So and after the fleshlight, I went around and pulled, you know, all these people I knew and the women, nobody knew what it was and their husbands all did, which is sus. But they're what I mean. Yeah, it's sus that the women. I know. I just told you guys, I just, and then of course I saw on social media a lawsuit against

fleshlight of someone that sued them for false advertising because it didn't do. There you go. We're going to stop there. Got dublided. Got dublided. But yeah, but the stuff, the shocking stuff that you see in. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I got a lot of those. I got to save some for future water cooler talks. Yeah. I mean, I said this before, but I swear at least once a week, I'm still shocked about something that occurs at work.

Which I think is beautiful. You've seen it all until something new pops in. Yeah, and I've been doing this for 21 years. And I'm just like, what? It's crazy. I'm like, I'm sorry, what? That's what we like getting some of these. And we'll have some more coming up very soon of some of these listener stories that we

see. But I distinctly remember that. I haven't gasped audibly that many times. And if that was helpful because I was reading a document, I wasn't listening in the near term to someone sharing that with me. That would be, you got to practice your, oh, your people are telling you crazy stuff face

so that you can like, oh, okay, respond and not do like mouth to the hands over mouth. And my logic, like the person that like just was like, I'm just gonna send this lady giving a horse a job via email. Like no thought, like what? Uncompetitive property? Right.

Ah! Well then I'm trying to turn it into like, more professional language. So it's like, the horse, trying to describe it more professionally in your mind, you're just like, oh my God, please don't, please just decide this one on the briefs. Please don't make anyone do oral argument on this thing. Oh my God. Anyway, okay. On that front, we always remember your first time, don't you?

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Available right away. Let's go ahead and dive into our agenda for today. Thank you for that water cooler, Ashley, wonderful lessons gained, I think. We are going to start off, of course, with our cringe corporate speak, and Jamie is taking point on that. And then we will pivot into our hot topic for today,

which is all about toxic positivity. Right, another kind of buzzy term we're seeing and hearing about in the workplace and across the socials. What does it mean? Why do we do it? All the things, right? We'll ask those questions and attempt to answer them. And then, of course, we will transition into questions and comments

and close out this wonderful meeting. Jamie. Yeah, so our cringy corporate speak today is too many balls in the air. Oh, after that horse story. I know, right? Okay. Gives it new meaning. Is it fitting? right? Okay. Gives it new meaning. Is it fitting?

Yeah. Okay. How do you tend to hear this cringe speech? Yeah, like I've got too much going on. I've got too many balls in the air. Why am I doing the hand motion? Because you're juggling. That's what it is.

Juggling. Can you guys juggle? I've got too many balls in the air. Yeah, I can juggle. You can juggle? I saw you juggle last night. Oh yeah, you were juggling. Yeah, in the ball pit. Not well, honestly. But side note, I learned to juggle in like fourth grade gym class. That was a lesson in there?

Yes, as well as square dancing, of course. Exactly. But no, I'm not kidding. We learned how to do our taxes. I learned with scarves first. Yes, and then I learned with scarves first, but I learned Oh, gosh, that's the square dance. I learned with scarves first. Yes, and then I learned with scarves first, but I learned at clown camp, and that's the difference.

Oh, yeah, she's professionally trained, is what she's saying. You just went public. Yeah, I didn't perfect the U.S. site. Tennessee public school. Right. Kentucky, Kentucky is right there with you, friend. Clown presence. Yeah, so let's try to sneak that into today's episode.

Too many balls in the air. It's all about juggling stuff is what that means. You got too much going on. I know. Because you said you can just say, I have a lot going on. I need to figure out how to prioritize that there's anything that I can actually move off. Yeah, that's a little long. Right. So now I do see why maybe we say, you know, that was like four lines. You only have so much time with your boss. lines. You know? You're like listening. You only have so much time with your boss.

You're not wrong. Exactly. Instead, you could just go, and do this cringy like juggle movement with your head. I got a lot of juggling. People know, but if someone saw, I would probably understand even with that motion alone. Someone like, I'm busy. Can you help me? And you're doing the juggle hands.

I'm fucked. I'm like, leave me alone. I've got too many balls. I've got too many horse balls in the air. All righty. Great. Well, that was informative and we appreciate you, Jamie. Now transitioning to our meeting hot topic, all about toxic positivity.

What the hell is toxic positivity? Jamie. toxic positivity. What the hell is toxic positivity? Thank you for asking. Yes, I brought up the Google yet again. Toxic positivity is the belief that no matter how dire or difficult a situation is, people should maintain a positive mindset. While there are benefits to being optimistic and engaging in positive thinking, toxic positivity rejects all difficult emotions in favor of cheerful and often falsely positive facade." Yeah. So, it's basically like you can't bitch here.

Yeah. Yeah. You can't be human, perhaps, and feel. You can't have emotions. Right. And process. You're not allowed to have those emotions. It's bad.

Yeah. That's too negative. Where do you tend to see that happen in the workplace? What situations? I would see that often from like upper level leadership. Right? Like call a spade a spade, motherfucker. Like you know this boat's going down.

You know, like sometimes they will do this language that's very, you know, like pomp and circumstance and pretty and all of this. And you were all in this together, which is true. But hey, we got to keep fighting. We got to keep going. We got to do this. We got to do that. Don't let's not address the problems over here. Let's sweep it under the rug. It's kind of like that attitude, you know, when, when really as an employee, you're like, gosh, can you just like be transparent and honest that this ain't good? We're probably closing up shop or something's got a shift or change for us to actually survive and let's address the problem

Please like can we problem solve for something? You know, what can we do to support that? You know, and so they do kind of just this pretty games You know pretty words words words words, words, words. Yeah. That's how I see it a lot, I feel. Yeah. I see it too from leadership, mostly pushing that agenda. And then of course, being in the HR space, you are hearing those negative things. You know, you're helping to have people be able.

Toxic negativity. Yeah. There's funny effects. To have people talk to me. Yeah People to kind of like work through those emotions and listen to you know, their frustration or their anger or you know, whatever it is, so But I also feel like HR can be part of the toxic positivity Oh, yeah, you know where we're and I won't say us per se, the three of us. No, we're perfect. But yeah, we're absolutely, we're fucking perfect. But no, I mean, I've even seen it, like from my coworkers before where they're pushing

this, we're fine. Right. You know, responding to Glassdoor's review themselves and just like almost creating more of a show and a spectacle on these things as opposed to just like actually truly addressing them and taking care of them. Boy, that's a good one. I mean, I think that Glassdoor is an example because I was thinking of it with the beginning of COVID when so many leaders would be like, we're all going back to work in two weeks' time. And it's all, but instead saying, this is our hope. And if that doesn't, let's lay out the scenarios

that can happen and what could possibly happen in those. And I think the power of language and communication and the same in layoffs. When you had those leaders that were like, we're not doing any layoffs. And you're like, well, you know, the ghost of Christmas future is like, let me, let me tell you. But I hadn't thought about that.

I think your point on Glass Story is a good one, especially in the context of HR, because sometimes you'll see those like savage, savage, savage. And again, Glass Story, it's like anything. It's like, sometimes you can resent you. I know who that person is. And like, there's a lot more to this story. And I hear, okay. But other times you read things and you're like, you know, what this person is. And there's a lot more to this story. I know the backstory. And I hear it, okay. But other times you read things and you're like, you know, what this person is saying

is like either two things. One is like, yeah, I know they're absolutely sure what they're saying is about this leader and that leader's never going anywhere. So like, how am I going to handle this? Or they bring up something like, I hadn't heard that. What do I do with this? And so sometimes those in HR, well, their response will be to like respond with the fluffy like, thanks, we love you so much. If you have anything else, please DM me privately or message me privately. Yes. Email address on those things.

And that's the most common refrain you say. And you understand that because people do want to. And you know, probably don't. And also, you know, it's not like a comment section where they can continuously comment. Yeah, there's no option to do that. There's no option other than respond to this. But I think if you saw some Glassdoor comments that had more like substance and saying like, you know, people are, and we wanna, but it's about like that one in HR of like, if you know there's a leader

and that person's not going anywhere and what that person said has absolutely happened or things responding like fluffy, like love you, like okay, you're the best and then thanks for how do you how do you bring that up to this leader in the workplace like you know do that with your resume at the ready and you know page sparks is number on the on your style on your cell phone if you don't know page sparks then go follow her she's she's good i don't know because you know i don't know nobody yeah you're not on the socials. No, I don't know nothing.

You're not in the socials. I'm not in the socials. I'm just on them. I'm just on them. I don't know nobody. But that is an area where I think HR can fall into that trap of toxic positivity. And it's a hard one because it's hard to influence when your job's at stake. Do you ever wish that you had an HR legal bestie in your pocket?

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and discover how to stay ahead with 650's seamless solutions. So what's it like to buy your first cryptocurrency on Kraken? and discover how to stay ahead in your pocket. Easy. Go to Kraken.com and see what crypto can be. Non-investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer for info on Kraken's undertaking to register in Canada. There definitely is a line to your point, Jamie, that HR, some HR professionals cross and it's a dangerous one. This toxic positivity line where you're just bullshitting people. Yeah. Because it's at the sake of your credibility and relationship and of trust that you've built with your employees.

Yeah. It really is. I mean, there's definitely a conversation that you can have with an employee, and I've had it so many times, to say, I hear you and I appreciate you sharing with me. This is the reality that we're in right now, right? And I totally get it. And I know it sucks.

It sucks for me too. I understand. I empathize. I know. What can we do together to move forward? There is this opportunity to have this, I don't want to say the word unionization, but this connection with the employee. We would never say that, depending on where you work.

But there's this opportunity though, to continue building a stronger relationship with your workforce versus bullshitting them, which to me, it's like turning your back to them. You know what I mean? You really create a divide and they will call you on your ship. So fast. Yeah. And that's why, you know, we've mentioned it numerous times.

Transparency is so important. And decisiveness. Yeah. And you can provide, don't get me wrong, sometimes you can't provide 100% of the information, but there is options and transparency is important and people need it, they crave it, they want it. Yeah, but that's the whole thing. Like when we talk about HR being demonized, oh, they're always representing the company, which is dumb because who do you work for, bitch? We all work for the company. But anyways, that's like the dumbest thing I've ever heard. We are literally all representing the organization. But it's because of things like that.

It's because of bullshitting people and not being real and honest. That doesn't mean you have to tell them all the company secrets. Exactly. It's just literally, they just want to be heard. They want to have the conversation. They want to get it out. Don't sit there and be like, everything's perfect. Be like,

I can see you heard it. Yeah. You can have an honest conversation in a difficult topic. It's hard in a lot of ways right now. I think you're especially seeing this in industries like tech that have been hard hit where it's like they've had layoff after layoff after layoff round. And so to Lee's point, there are people that are real

because they're looking at the job market is like, and they're seeing the post of people saying, like, it's really hard out here, and HR professionals that have had job loss, it's really hard out here for every, but that's why it's hard in these, and so in the layoff context and things like that, I see like being decisive,

when I was just talking to somebody, it talked about how, you know, they were told, you're gonna have a conversation in a week's time, and they were like, I knew I was gonna get laid off. And I'm like, in my my heart, they're telling the story and they're like, you know, things were kind of okay. But I'm like, oh, like, it's just it's just cruel. And it's in its heart. And I get it that it's tough position. HR can be in a tough position because so many people are going to be asking you that question that they're not going to ask their boss as much or their boss is going to be like, I don't go talk to your, your, let me talk to HR be like, I don't know, go talk to your

I don't know, let me talk to HR. I don't know, I'd have to ask HR. But it's, and I get it why leaders of an organization don't want to announce it right away because they're like, okay, well, we have customer, we're still trying to drive, like it's hard to do these things. But in the HR world of being decisive and thinking about when you know there's going to be information, telling people because putting people in this land of uncertainty is cruel, especially having that positivity on top of it. I don't know we're doing our best because then the surprise feels so much worse. It does. It does. Or like raises, we're trying to figure out maybe we'll do raises this year and then all

of a sudden it trickles down. You don't hear anything and people are like... They love to call it siren. People don't forget. People do not forget, I love the people don't forget. People do not forget that they will, they will remember when you say that. Yeah. Yeah. But especially for HR pros, there's a way to balance

still advocating for the company and its position and actually giving a shit about employees. Yeah. Yeah. And not sacrificing that relationship that you've worked so hard to build. Yeah. You know? I mean, I think ways you can do it are to say that when you can influence leaders, sometimes that leader is your own boss.

Sometimes that leader is outside of the HR organization, but saying, if you see things that you're doing and saying, well, if we do these things, this is what the impact is going to be, and this is how it's going to be reputationally on the company. And this is going to filter to customer and customer, things like that, because you're in HR and you're trying to push change by saying this would be a nice thing to do. Like you're not gonna make much headway when you're gonna have nice to haves.

But if you can say, which is true, things about how the company is perceived, sometimes that's what it takes for your message to be heard. You know where there is a lot of toxic positivity per the previous question 10 minutes ago? LinkedIn. That is like a minefield of toxic positivity, you know, right? Like everything.

And I think there is a lot of conversation on LinkedIn about that too, right? Of just people like, don't worry, everything's fine. No, no, no, no. You know what I mean? Like it's just... People will tell you... Someone the other day said, someone had a post and they said, if you're the right person for the job, people won't ghost you. And people only go... I'm going to go to Charlotte. I'm just going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte.

I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte.

I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte.

I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to go to Charlotte. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm still bitter. It's only been 20 years. I'm still, it's fine. I'm going to go from San Antonio. I'm going to go to Charlotte. I'm just going to show up at this law firm one day with a new briefcase. I'm going to wear an Elwoods pink suit.

And I mean, here I am. It was all men. So they noticed me. Gosh. But yeah, the toxic positivity runs rampant. Yeah. It's very disappointing to say the least. I was being a little cheeky early with toxic negativity. That's not a thing, but it should be. I do think it is a real thing.

I had not heard it phrased that way, but it is. Yeah. Well, toxic positivity is essentially gas lighting. Yeah, it's all fake. It's literally gas lighting. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's like corporate gas lighting. See, that was too long. Yeah. Barely. Toxic positivity is just like two letters shorter or something. I don't know. I didn't do the math. I'm just guessing. I know you will. You'll do the, yeah. Exactly. I'm not going to count it. I'm not going to text you. I'm not calling you. I'm going to text you. I knew you were going to do that. You know, someone's going to fact check me.

That's fine. I don't give a shit. No, I'm just curious in my mind. No, I know. I'm saying people are going to DM me about it. I ain't going to give a shit. You can. Me? If you knew.

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Squeeze more summer out of summer with Skip. Did somebody say skip? Ah, questions and comments. We got way too many balls, aka meetings to get to, so we better transition. Any questions or comments? In toxic positivity, if your organization has gone through a layoff, a layoff

does not just impact the people who are laid off, and it does not just impact those people for one day. And so if you've gone through that, reminding people to check in on those people that were affected, that were laid off, and also the people that stay behind, because part of toxic positivity is you feel like the layoff is done and then people are like,

okay, now let's move on to the future. Now we've, whether you use the term right size or things like that, which is a term, but like, but it is just reminding, trying to flip, there are a lot of people that stay behind that have those feelings of guilt and things like that. And so- But also anxiety too.

Yeah, of course, because they don't like- Am I next on the chopping block? And so like reminding them, if you try to be positive, again, everyone wants to keep jobs and try to make money, but you also gotta balance that with the recognition that there's a lot of emotional trauma that people have come through. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'll just make the comment that, you know, to that point, I love positivity, right?

I mean, I'm definitely not a Debbie Downer, I don't think. I'm a realist, but I'm not like, you know, I'm very positive, right? I always think the future is bright, which I like, right? I like being optimistic, you know, and shit like that. And whatever bullshit, you know. I didn't really visualize you saying that. Yeah, but whatever bullshit, you know. But especially if you're a leader,

but you know, you're just a human, you're a friend, you're a family member, allow those in your life to process things, because that's how people are enabled to move on to the what's next. And if you don't experience that grief or that negativity or that pain or that hurt, it just stays embedded within you and it rots there.

And I know I can like feel people shaking their heads as they listen to this. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I see Ash over there shaking her head too. And it just lives in you insidiously. And it continues to just thrive and expand and grow until one day it just overtakes you so overwhelmingly. And you do not deserve that.

You deserve safety and peace to be able to process things, to grow and to live and to thrive. You really, really do. So allow yourself that peace, that time, and that ability. And if you're in a position of power in your organization, support those around you to do the same. Yeah. Let them feel. We all get the gift of feeling. That's where we're human. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah.

Thank you. I get a little clap. Yeah. I mean, I get a little clap. I mean, that preacher preach on. Like that is, you know I love to. We are allowed to have feelings and we're allowed to have negative feelings sometimes. And you need them is the point. Allow yourself, give yourself the privilege to be human.

That's what it is. Just feel it so that you can go through it. Yeah. And come out the other side. Yeah, that's true. Mic drop. Do you have a question? No. What? Okay.

No question or comment? Well, to that point, we'll be all positive in this meeting. I can't follow that up. Are you fucking kidding me? I'm such a bitch, right? No, but she just did that amazing, like that really was a mic drop moment. We'll call that a joint effort. We'll just sign on to that. I have some statistics, but I'm not going to follow up some of my bullshit statistics with her mic drop moment.

All right, you can send us an email. If you would add that, that would be part of the meeting. There could be an email. So send us an email on that. I'll let Lee, let me read that and let me know what the, summarize the statistics. I'll be counting up letters tonight. We all know I love the pontificate.

We have our homework. Insituis is also a good word. Yeah, I just love to share my feels a lot. Yeah, like I said, it was a mic drop moment. I'm not gonna overshadow that. We know your high, Jamie. We respect it. Well, we appreciate you joining this meeting and we wish you all the feels

except the toxic positivity. Yeah, go get fucked. Oh, that's toxic negativity. Bye bye.