I Don't Know About That - Jonestown Massacre

Episode Date: May 9, 2023

Dr. Janja Lalich (www.janjalalich.com) really schools us on what happened that day at Jonestown and also the experience of being in a cult. Check out Dr. Lalich's charity The Lalich Center on Cults and Coercion at www.lalichcenter.org. Jim's new special "High & Dry" is now available on Netflix! Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/IDKAT for ad free episodes, bonus episodes, and more exclusive perks! Tiers start at just $2! AD: Freeze Pipe: Go to www.thefreezepipe.com and use the promo code: IDKAT to get 10% off your order.

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of tissues. And these are the things on the table in front of our screen. It looks like... It is weird. I've never noticed that. If that was in an escape room, you'd go... This means something. You'd go,

all right, something happens here. You'd have to roll back the bit of the lint roller and have a code underneath it and the carabiners would have to do something and then the Sharpie pen

and then the box of tissues. Yeah, you'd have to figure out which remote control do you use. And there's like a necklace with a wasp on it. That means nothing.

Jim, what's the name of the show? Oh, I don't know about that. Hello. All right, everyone. If this is the first time you've been listening, I doubt it very much. You would have started with episode one, got bored, gone backwards.

We're just playing to the fans now. How are you going, people? How's your week been? You been good? Me and Forrest are in Italy. Forrest got detained in Saudi Arabia. So he didn't make it.

No, I don't think we're there yet. I think we're on our way. I just think you will be detained. There's some country... Can we put a word in? It's a safe bet.

There's some country, if you travel to too many cities in too many days, that you will tell someone to fuck off and you're going to get detained yeah yeah it's all over uh i think we're in greece right now oh we haven't gotten that to to dubai yet or yeah why were the greeks synonymous with anal sex what happened there i think it's catholicism right they saved the pussy and so they give up the ass what's up were they catholic there's a lot of Catholic. They're Greek Roman Catholics.

Ancient Greeks and ancient Romans were having a bunch of orgies, a bunch of men, so. Oh, yes, yes. No, it's just because if you order pizza there, it comes with shit on it. That's not true. Why would you ruin what's otherwise a fun day?

North America, Canada, America. That's the United States to you and me. Well, yeah, but not Mexico. And we're not going to Mexico. He said North America. Yeah, I'm doing those two bits. Never been to Mexico. I've been to Mexico.

Like do shows. We went to Mexico together. We didn't do a show. Jim did a show in Mexico. Yeah, I've done a show in Mexico. The JFL Cancun. Oh, yeah, do shows. We went to Mexico together. We didn't do a show. Jim did a show in Mexico. Yeah, I've done a show in Mexico. The JFL Cancun. Oh, yeah, my bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've done a show in Mexico. I take it back. You've never done one. I have. I'm a world traveler. I've done a show in Cabo. Oh, true that. Damn.

Your face. Guys, easy. Settle. Get along. Before you met me, you'd never been to Australia. Now you've been to Australia like seven times or something. Yeah, but I'm talking about Mexico. I know, but you're an Australian guy now.

Oh, yeah, no, I'll move there in a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to discuss this. Yeah, the Australian women, he's just ducking over to Australia. Loves Australia. Where were you when you just ducked down to Australia? Just now. Oh, we were in Asia.

Yeah, yeah, in the Asia tour, yeah. Yeah, I'll just go to Australia. I was going to stay longer but then I don't remember why I didn't like everything fell through oh yeah

I just ended up coming home but I was there for like three days still good got on the ferry went over manly checked it out

got on the ferry that's a sexual move yeah sounds like it or drugs Greek style yeah got on the ferry

went Greek style got some what have you this isn't boating well for the rest of the podcast we just did a Yeah. Sounds like it. Or drugs. Greek style. Yeah. Got on a ferry and went Greek style. Got some, what have you. This isn't boding well for the rest of the podcast. We just did a, we did a banger of a Patreon just then.

If you want to listen to the Patreon, it starts off a little bit rocky. The first 10 minutes are just scheduled. That Patreon might have come out weeks before. Yeah,

we just did schedules forever and then talked about the Dalai Lama sucking tongue. What? He doesn't suck tongue. He's not weird. He asks others, he asks others to do it.

I thought those were still the Patreons. No, no, no. New one. I did all the stuff on the table as the intro. Well, go to jimjeffries.com for your dates. And Forrest, you got any dates coming up? I do. You should go see me in Montreal,

July 6th through the 8th at the Comedy Nest. The Comedy Nest? Yeah, and July 9th in Philadelphia at the Punchline. That's one night only. Please go to that and buy some tickets. I want to play a game very quickly because comedy clubs are always called coconuts, bananas, jesters, chuckle huts, things like that. I want you all to name, pickles would be a name of a club.

Bananas. All day, bananas. I want you all to name a comedy club a name of a club bananas all day bananas yeah yeah I want you all to name a comedy club starting with Jack I just did mine let's do

um buckles buckles comedy club because your knees buckle when you laugh so hard is it for

pilgrims it just sounds goofy I guess I don't know yeah buckles I had pickles in my head so I just went to buckles. Maracas.

Maracas? Yeah. Why? Because maracas is a funny word. And it also sounds like tits, and then it would have like a person going like this. He's using the buckles idea. No, it's all ills. Pickles, buckles, maracas.

I said mine when you were naming them off. What? The tickle stick. The tickle stick? Yeah. When are you laughing at that? When I go to the tickle stick. Where are you going?

You can say the stick. I'm going to go see the stick tonight. Jim Jefferies is there. How about comedy hut? Comedy hut? I think that probably exists. I don't know about comedy. Are there some huts?

Comedy things? There's some huts. There's a comedy cabana. I know that in South Carolina. There used to be the Encino Laugh Stop. Yeah, that's where you're stopping at the laughs. Yeah. But the tickle stick is like, it's a little thing.

They tickle you. Plus you could sell the stick. Yeah. Welcome to Gafaz. Wiggles. Wiggles is good. Calamities Comedy Club. Calamities.

Or Shenanigans Showroom or something like that. You know the problem with Shenanigans Showroom is it's too hard to spell, unlike Maracas. Anyways, follow us on IDCAT podcast on Instagram and Patreon. How about just toes? Toes? Yeah, you go toes. I'm playing toes this weekend in Santa Cruz. Fingers and Patreon. How about just toes? Toes? Yeah, you go toes. I'm playing toes this weekend in Santa Cruz.

Fingers and toes. What about the head and shoulders? Fingers and toes is a thing that you say when you're saying to someone in Australia like wishing them luck. Like I'm crossing

my fingers and toes. You just go fingers and toes. Oh, you do the abbreviated. Okay. Fingers and toes. What about brekkies? No, that's a breakfast place. So IDCAP podcast on Instagram.

And then our Patreon is... All right. Breakfast Comedy Club. Patreon.com slash IDCAP. Ooh, comedy in the morning. Ah, yeah. And now... Sloppy Joes.

Oh, yeah. That's a great place in Key West. Merman podcast. Listen to that. Merman. Please welcome our guest, Dr. Janja Lalic. Hello, doctor. Now it's time to play... Yes, no. Yes, no. Yes, welcome our guest, Dr. Janja Lalic. Hello, Doctor. Now it's time to play...

Yes, no. Yes, no. Yes, no. Yes, no. Judging a book by its cover. Hello, Doctor. Okay, so I have to look at your room. Okay, so you're a doctor.

Are you a doctor of medicine? No, no, no. I'm a PhD, a sociologist. Oh, okay, sociologist. So the topic you're going to talk about is something to do with social issues. Yes. It's an event. Oh, it's an event. So it's historical. Yes. It's an historical event. That you've probably seen a documentary on. Oh, did you invent Fyre Fest? Did I invent what? No, don't worry. I didn't invent Fyre Fest.

Oh, this is the documentary. Okay, documentary. So, event. I don't want to be dark ears at the Holocaust. Are we talking about the Holocaust? No, but people died. People died. The group of people died.

9-11? No. No. It's getting worse and worse here. Cult. Cult. Oh, Waco. No. Oh, I know a bit about Waco. I here Cult Oh, Waco Oh, I know a bit about Waco, I've seen documentaries on Waco

Getting warmer A lot of people died Oh, it's the bloke who down in Ghana or down in Africa We'll see, that's going to be one of the questions Hang on, hang on His name is not Jones, Jimmy Jones Well, it's the Jonestown it. That's one of the questions. Jones. Jimmy Jones.

Well, it's the Jonestown Massacre. That's what we're going to be talking about. Is it Jimmy Jones? Well, we'll see him and ask you a question. Love the sandwiches. Hate the massacre. Dr. Janja Lalic is a researcher, author, and educator specializing in cults and extremist groups with a particular focus on charismatic relationships, political and other social

movements, ideology and social control, and issues of gender and sexuality. She has been a consultant to educational, mental health, business media, and legal professionals, as well as having worked with current members, former members, and family members of controversial groups. You can find more information out at janyalalich.com. That's J-A-N-J-A-L-A-L-I-C-H.com. And you can see she's written a whole bunch

of books. I see you in, I swear, every cult documentary I watch. She's the cult expert. Every time I see her, I email her. I'm like, I saw you again. Oh, she's an expert. She's not very susceptible. She didn't go from cult to cult. No, I did. I did. Oh, really? Yeah, so tell us a little bit about how this became your area of interest.

Well, I was in a cult in the 70s and 80s. It was a left-wing cult. We were going to have the revolution and create a better society with social equality, et cetera, et cetera. I was 30 when I joined, so I wasn't a kid. I wasn't naive. and create a better society with social equality, et cetera, et cetera. I was 30 when I joined, so I wasn't a kid. I wasn't naive. I thought I was doing something good.

It ended up being about 10 1⁄2 years of absolute misery, and we worked 20-hour days every day, year after year. Finally, when I got out, I was almost 41 and I found a luckily found a very good therapist and got my head together and started working in this field it's a I see it as kind of turning a bad thing into a good thing oh yeah absolutely all right so we are going to ask Jim a series of questions about the Jonestown Massacre. He's going to answer them. And then when he's done answering those, I'm going to ask you how he did on accuracy on scale of 0 to 10.

So you'll answer that, Dr. Lollich. And Kelly's going to grade him on confidence. I'm going to grade him on et cetera. We'll put all those scores together. And if you score 21 through 30, Joni Mitchellville. Yeah. Joni Mitchell was in a cult, was she? No, because I couldn't think of another.

You'll get it. I feel like people who are in cults like Joni Mitchell, though. Jonas Brothersburg is 11 through 20. Oh, my God. Yeah. And then 0 through 10, Joan of Arkakirky. No. All right.

She liked it. Creative. What was the Jonestown Massacre, just briefly? Jonestown Massacre, Jim Jones had a cult. The People's Church, I want to say. That's the next question, wasn't it? It was the People's Church. And who was the leader?

Jim Jones. Okay. And it's where the Don't Drink the Kool-Aid came from. They all drank a Kool-Aid that killed them. I believe he committed suicide just with a gunshot. Like he made it a bit easier or something. Some people escaped and they got shot on the airline at the airport, like on the landing strip.

I believe it was in, I want to say Ghana. Ghana. But I might be wrong. What governmental position did Jim Jones hold? Oh, like in the american government i don't know um i would say he was a um a senator and what was what did jim jones practice like what was his belief system i don't know i think that like initially it was one of those cults that was um a little bit more open so there was people of different races and everyone was it was one of those cults that was a little bit more open. So there was people of different races.

Everyone was, it was started in San Francisco, I believe. It was all free love and that type of stuff. But I believe it started off as a very inclusive cult. When? When did it happen? It was the 70s. And you said it was located in Ghana? You're close.

Yeah. Because the next question is, why was located in Ghana? You're close. Yeah. Because the next question is, why was it in Guyana? Guyana. Yeah, yeah. Guyana. Do you know why it was there? They bought a big plot of land that was going to be Jonestown. It was going to be a utopia, and they were going to work on the land,

and they were going to make this thing great, and people sold all their possessions and went over there to get a bunk bed with their kids and everything like that. Do you know the demographics of Jonestown? The ages? Male, female, ethnicity. I'd say it was 50-50 male and female because there's a lot of people with families. I believe that probably 20% of them were children.

20% of them were children. And I'm going to say that 20% black, 60% white, and 30% other. Well, that's 110%, but good. You're trying really hard. How many people died? Okay, I can picture the helicopter shot. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Okay. He's got a photographic memory. I'm going to go 600 people.

What kind of poison was used? Do you know? It was, I would say arsenic would be the type of poison, but I do know that it wasn't actually Kool-Aid. It was a bargain basement brand of Kool-Aid, and Kool-Aid have always been very upset by them having don't drink the Kool-Aid. No publicity is bad publicity. Yeah, I think it was something like Flavor-Aid.

I think it might have been Kool-Aid. How many people survived and how did they do so? Some people, I assume, didn't drink the Kool-Aid. And I assume some people tried to escape or some people were rescued. I know that a whole lot of people were shot. I don't know what they were doing. Shot by who? There was journalists or they were shot by the cult.

There was journalists and there was, I want to say, politicians or something that have gone down to visit to go get people out. Maybe some FBI agents. I'm going to say FBI agents. FBI, okay. And they were shot by high-ranking members of the People's Church. We kind of touched on these already, so I'll jump ahead. What were white knights, quote-unquote white knights? Do you know what that is?

I believe it's chocolate bar, two wafers, caramel. Okay. Correct. What about revolutionary suicide in relation to Jonestown? I can't remember if with Jonestown, when they committed suicide, what their utopia was going to be.

But there's always, in these cults, there's always some place you're going to go. So the revolutionary suicide, I believe they probably believed that by all committing suicide the revolution would begin and it would set course this would be a domino push that would set course a revolution in society do you know what the six-day siege was it's okay if you don't i i i believe that would be the six days working up to the suicide attempt when the fbi people came in and checked because there was i know the fbi guys and all that were handed bits of paper because

everyone was just like we're so happy we're so good and all that type of stuff oh it's wonderful here and then a few people like let me the fuck out of here a couple more questions what is the quote-unquote death tape um the the death tape it was really it was really loud. No, death. Oh, okay, the death tape. The death tape would have been the videotape of everyone dying on the ship. Do you know who Christine Miller is in relation to this? It's not one of me favorite of all the cults. If you get me on Waco, I do all right, I reckon. You don't know Christine Miller or Leo Ryan?

They're high-ranking members of the people church. Last question. How did Jim Jones' son survive? By his dead father. You know when people go, he survived by this. No, he survived by, he just put the Kool-Aid in his mouth and spat it out when his dad was dead. Dr. Janja Lalic, how did Jim do on his knowledge of Jonestown Massacre, 0 through 10, 10's the best?

Well, he didn't do very good. You should hear how bad I do on other things. This is me at full speed. I knew his name. I knew the name of the church and Kool-Aid. How much information do I need? Yeah, I'd say, I mean, are we doing,

I'd say he got 20%. So, like, 2.5? 2.5? No, just 2, man. Oh, you wanted 2? Yeah, I don't need 2. 2. What happened?

Eddie, you're on confidence. He's a 9 on confidence. He would disagree that he did terribly. 11.5. I'm going to give you a minus three. Joan of Arcacurky.

That's where you are, Joan of Arcacurky. Dr. Lalich, what was the Jonestown Massacre? Well, it was the day, November 18th, 1978, when basically Jones gathered all his people together because his henchmen had shot the congressman and some other people. And so he basically told them all to drink this cyanide-laced flavor aid. And most people did, but those who didn't were shot and killed by his bodyguards. Okay. And then, so Jim Jones was a leader. We established that. And the name of the cult

jim said was the people's church i'm not sure what actually what it was the people's temple ah that's 0.5 of an answer right there i'll give me 22 and i said i said a politician you said fbi yeah but i did say politicians i I'm giving myself three. What was his belief system? Like, Jim Jones, what did he practice? He practiced cultism. No. Well, he practiced what he called apostolic socialism. Basically, he started out as kind of part of the Christian revival movement,

but he believed in socialism, and his ultimate goal was to, to become a communist community and eventually to get to the Soviet union. Wow. That's cause I'm a bit of a socialist. I like medical care and helping out the poor. Communists. He was trying to socialize.

She said socialists to begin with. Yeah. Yeah. I like, that's always muddies up. I always dislike when Americans go, you're commie? You come from a communist? No, I come from a socialist country.

It's a different thing, but he's putting a bad word on the socialism. He's going off to bloody Russia. Jim Jones. Yeah, he ruined socialism and Kool-Aid. Yeah, yeah. Fucking gay. And did he hold a governmental position, Jim Jones? Yeah, when he was in San Francisco,

he was very in with a lot of the politicians and the mayor, Moscone, at the time. And so he was appointed chairman of the housing authority. Wow. Did that help him, like, get, like, what do you call it, recruit people? Yeah, it made him more legitimate you know so he thought well he must be okay if the governor likes him and all these

politicians would come to all his events and stuff yeah i guess what i mean was it was that like his plan i guess that's why he ran for office or not ran for office was he uh was he charming for like i always think this about cult leaders you can say what you want about him but i you know i couldn't get that many people to do it. They must be fairly charming. Because he wasn't good looking or anything like that. Like Koresh was arguably a sexy fella. Well, I suppose you could say that. But I mean, they indoctrinate people.

They change them so that they totally believe he's the answer. If you don't mind me asking about your personal experience with a cult, if you don't have to answer if you don't want me asking about your personal uh experience with the cult um if you don't have to answer if you don't want to um what was the name of the cult you're in and who who is the leader of your one it was called well we had a bunch of names but it was called the democratic workers party and we had a lot of front groups um and the leader was a woman named marlene dixon oh you never hear a lot of female cult leaders. I don't know. Are there many?

There are more today. Breaking the glass ceiling there? There's more today, you're saying? Finally, equality. Right. How long were they in San Francisco before they made the move that i don't know exactly i mean several years at least yeah and with the move when he made the

move when he said oh we're all going up to guiana um was that like met by the whole group like did everyone do the shift or did like 50% of the people go, all right, well, have fun? No, they all went. What happened is he was about to be exposed in several articles in the San Francisco press. And so he wanted to avoid that. You know, he was doing faith healing and, you know,

they had all this evidence about him faking everything. So he had people go investigate before that even because most cult leaders are really paranoid and um once these articles were going to come out he basically told everybody let's go and and just about everybody moved there i mean some people did stay behind but the vast majority moved there. And it was 1970. I'm sorry, you said it again. 78. 78 was the message.

And so why did they choose Guyana? Like Jim said, they bought a big plot of land, I guess it was Zerotopia. Because, well, they chose Guyana because it was a socialist country. And so he thought they would be very friendly toward them, which they were initially. And then they weren't. You're saying something happened that made them not friendly towards them anymore? Yeah, they killed everybody. Forgot about that.

That's a little hiccup. That put a damper on the relationship. I told you not to do that. You know, it's like when a bloke shows up at your party and you think he's a good guy and then he kills everyone. And you're like, this sucks. I've got to eat this cake by myself. It's like when a bloke shows up at your party and you think he's a good guy and then he kills everyone. You're like, this sucks. I've got to eat this cake by myself.

I vouched for you, dude. What were the demographics of Jonestown? Jim said it was 50 male, female, 20% kids, 20% black, 60% white, 30% other. Is that correct? It was 70 percent black and of that 40 percent were black women and then i think it was like maybe 20 percent white and then the rest was mixed race and was it equal like almost 50 50 male female or was it i think it was more males than females but I don't know those exact statistics. And were they mostly families or single people or couples? It was a lot of families it was a lot of black families from the the Fillmore district

in San Francisco which was a very black neighborhood, and that's where the church was. Oh, and that's why he appealed to the black people so much is because he was in the area. Well, he appealed to black people from the very beginning when he started in Indianapolis, which they didn't like very much in Indianapolis, which is why he moved to California. But he was always about, one of the things he preached about was racial inequality, and he spoke against poverty and things like that. And that's why so many black people were attracted to his church. That's why I never speak out against poverty, because I don't want all these people to die. It's a good thing I do. Oh, wow. Yeah. Man of the people. And then how many people died? Was it close to 600?

It was 909 at the compound. And then another nine were killed in the town. Geez. Wow. And I think a couple people committed suicide when they heard about it who had been followers oh like people who were still back in America they even did it

what the fuck is wrong with people what are with you bloody and they wouldn't have heard about it right away there was no Twitter it would have been like a while after it was all over the news it would have made the news that night oh I meant instantly

though like nowadays you can do it right away but it was huge people who are doing it today how how far in advance did uh the people get to know when they're going to drink the kool-aid so because i remember watching the documentary i know he went through some trial runs and he made them drink the kool-aid that didn't have poison in it. And he's just like, ha-ha, just to see if they would do it, right? Is that correct? Right. Those were the white knights.

When he asked you what are the white knights, they were like practice drills where he'd call everybody together. He'd call these alerts and he'd call everyone together and he'd say, you know, would you die for me? And basically serve them this drink without the poison but yeah he did drills oh wow wait so then when he actually gave them the poison did they did did they think it was another drill yeah they knew it was real i mean the first it was initially it was a child who was the first one to be injected and died instantly. And so, I mean, they knew it was real. They knew because people had been killed. And so he got them to believe everything was all over

and they were going to be raided and blah, blah, blah. And so it was time to go. And what was the benefit of them dying? Did they think they were going somewhere or was it just a stick of middle finger up at society? No, it was just what was called revolutionary suicide, which was a phrase actually from the Black Panther movement. But basically it meant dying for your beliefs and dying for equality and against capitalism and all of that. Right.

So did most of them die willingly or were people just like, Well, that's a matter of question. The children were injected first and so I always say, you know, if you're a mother and you're holding your child and you watch your child going into convulsions and dying, are you then going to say, oh, no, don't give it to me? Right. Some people did resist and then they were shot. And, you know, I mean, what is willingly when you're indoctrinated into a false belief system?

It's not really your free will. It's the will of the leader. And you said the poison used was cyanide, correct? Yes. Did I say cyanide? He said arsenic, but it was cyanide. And where do you get cyanide? Like, how did they get cyanide?

I feel like that would be hard to get. In Guyana, it's an early shot corner. They got it shipped in. They had it for quite a while. I mean, he had a lot of doctors and nurses around him who were caring for him because he became a very serious drug addict. And somehow they got it shipped there. What was his drug of choice?

Oh, a lot of different pills. Oh, painkillers. And somehow they got its ship there. What was his drug of choice? I don't know. A lot of different pills. Oh, painkillers. Right. Yeah. And why is, Jim said that he knew it was a different brand, not Kool-Aid. It was like an off-brand. And you said Flavor-Aid.

Yeah, it was Flavor-Aid. He was right on that one. It was Flavor-Aid. Why, how did, like, that's just something that's happened over the years where people say don't drink the Kool-Aid or whatever. Well, it's still... It's like if you... You know, Vegemite, Marmite.

You know what I mean? Like, is Flavor-Aid still in stock? Can you still buy Flavor-Aid? I don't think so. Flavor-Aid. I don't know. I mean, it certainly didn't get popular like Kool-Aid did, so it's...

Why not just juice? Like, you're all going out. Splash out. You know, splash out on the upmarket one. Why go cheap if you're all going out splash out you know splash out on the on the upmarket one why go cheap if you're all gonna die yeah use some

freshly squeezed orange it's like some of the terrorists in 9-11 weren't sitting in business class like what are you doing well the rest of the crew still had to well because then

you have the pulp if you do the fresh squeezed oranges well maybe maybe Coca-Cola yeah there is Minute Maid yeah you just add water that maybe. Coca-Cola. Yeah. There is Minute Maid.

Yeah. You just add water. That's Coca-Cola, right? Yeah, there you go. It's ad time. Ad time. Your favorite time of the podcast. Reading the ads is my favorite bit too because it's easy.

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Order today and say goodbye to harsh smoke forever. And then some people survived. I asked how they survived. Some people didn't drink it. They escaped or rescued. How did the people survive? Well, I don't think anyone was rescued. Some people fled into the jungle, like a couple of the attorneys who were there, like Mark Lane.

Actually, I think he wrote one of the first books about Jonestown. actually I think he wrote one of the first books about Jonestown. One person one person didn't hear the announcement because he had trouble hearing and so he missed the whole thing. One person I read that one person hid under her bed and then when it was over she ran out and said oh my god God. And then several people were assigned beforehand to take all their assets, their money, to the Soviet Union. I don't know if they ever really got there, so they weren't there. And then a number of people and some of the boys

were in the capital in Georgetown for a basketball tournament. Now, I'm always fascinated by this did did uh did jim jones believe his own bullshit or like did he actually think this was a good thing for him all to die or was he just um it was a power trip or he was just uh yeah i i mean my my sense is from studying these people for the last 30 years, I think, I mean, a few of them are perhaps psychotic from the beginning. And, you know, they had some vision and they really believe it. But I'd say 99% are just con artists and they make up a story and it works. But then I think of the longer they exist and they're able to go on without any kinds of checks and balances. I think at that point they do become a little delusional and they actually believe their story,

especially someone like Jones who was so drug addled that by the end he probably did think he was the Messiah or whatever. Didn't he used to get people to get beaten up in front of the rest of the clergy and all that type of stuff, like the Congress? congress what's the word congregation right um because i there was like some audio tapes of him going hit her hit her like this like in front of people is was that right because it started off like i believe that the church started off all peace and love and we should all love each other and we should all give to each other and all that sort of stuff. And then it got a bit violent before that. Well, I know that they beat the children

and they actually used to, like, if the children were bad, they would hang them upside down in a well for, like, a couple of days or something. I mean, they did do that. And I don't know that... I mean, there was a lot of sexual abuse, and I suppose there was other physical abuse. They also, people who were starting to object or were troublesome,

they actually put them in a special building, and it was like a mental hospital, and they drugged them and just kind of locked them in this building to just keep them out of the way. Now, when you're, for lack of a better term uh deprogrammed is that the term you like from a from a cult right depro i don't use that term but i just call it recovering recovering from a thing right is there do you go to groups like do you do you meet other people who used to be in cults as well? Or is it mostly private therapy? Or how does one go about getting out of a cult? Well, it varies. I do a lot of like

individual consultations with people, but then I have a nonprofit now and we also do discussion groups with people from all different cults and that's actually a very validating process it's a safe environment people know what you're talking about no one's going to make fun of you and they see from people's experiences and other cults like how similar they are they all do the same things only they might call it something else so that's usually a very important step in the recovery process but a lot of it is just reading and writing stuff out and working it out and you know trying to work with somebody who understands about the after effects of being in a cult what signs should someone watch out for

to see if they're in a cult like like what what common traits do all cults have that you should look out for? Well, there's always the authoritarian leader who everyone is supposed to worship and who demands absolute loyalty and obedience and who supposedly is the only person who can take you to salvation or enlightenment or financial gain or whatever it is. There's absolutely no democracy. There's no checks and balances, so you're not allowed to criticize anything. And then, you know, there are all kinds of rules and regulations, depending on the group, like people have to wear certain things or eat certain things

or live with so-and-so or move from so-and-so. And there's, you know, there's a lot of separation of families, especially anyone who doesn't join. I mean, for example, in my case, once I was in the cult for probably a year, I didn't know anybody anymore who wasn't in the cult. I didn't have time to see anybody who wasn't in the cult. And so you become completely isolated in that way. Are there fun times in a cult? Are there what, fun times? Are there fun times?

Are there times when you're like, ah, this is all right. Playing some cornhole? I got a bit of community. I got a bit of thing. I got a bit of purpose in me life that maybe I didn't have before. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, if it were all bad, at least from the beginning,

no one would join or no one would stay. So there are times when you feel like you're accomplishing something or you do have a sense of purpose and a sense of community. And, I mean, we used to have dances and parties and all of that. It was mostly to recruit other people. We just didn't have them for ourselves, but at least we got to do that now and then. And are you told to recruit or is it just implied? Pardon?

Are you told to recruit others or is it just an implied thing or is it something you do willingly? Oh, no, you're told to recruit others. No, you're told to recruit others no you're told to recruit others oh yeah yeah i think a lot of people assume that they would they would never fall into that but it's because they're looking at these cults from the position of like the jones town massacre it's like it didn't start that way it's a snowball exactly that they prey on you know the things that are important like for instance with this it's like Jim Jones is working for racial inequality and so he's getting all these people thinking that they're doing something great and then it just

snowballs so I I mean I definitely think that I could be susceptible to a cult of puppies oh yeah puppies like bring a bunch of puppies around and then they were like hey why you you holding that puppy? well you're in we'd have to be a lot of puppies for the first year I just I know I'm too lazy

to be in a cult even if I believed in the whole thing in the utopia at the afterlife and how the world would be better I just don't have

the work ethic so unless there was one that involved 12 hours of sleep a day that's a billionaire cult. I don't want to wear a uniform. That's what the leaders do. I guess you'd be a good cult leader.

Yeah, you could run a cult. I love a uniform because I enjoy not having to think about my clothes all the time, so any uniform would be great for me. I'd be fine with that, as long as it's overalls or a big snuggie. But Dr. Lollich is saying you could run a cult. Yeah, you could run a cult. So do you think, you've only just met me, but I'm charming enough to run a cult, surely.

Pardon? I was saying, do you think I'm charming enough to run a cult? Sure. Great, great, I'll take it. You've already got a bunch of fans. All you just need to do You already have a holiday. Podcasts can be fun.

I have a holiday. April 18th is a sacred day. No one works on that. Yeah, well. And in my cult Some people work. In my cult I never work.

That's the whole that's your belief system? In my cult it's just women and me. April 18th is that your birthday? Yeah. No, it's a holiday from a stand-up.

A stand-up routine. My birthday's Valentine's Day. I think that would be another day. We'd all celebrate Valentine's Day. The lover's church or something like that? The lover's temple? No, I'm an atheist, so my one would be something like, no, I'm God.

I'm God in this world, right? Right. And the afterlife will be, ah, you just get to hang out with me a bit more. Wow. I can watch you play Call of Duty. Good selling point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically, my cult is me singing karaoke in the corner and girls clapping.

That sounds fun. And loads of in and out. Yeah, yeah. What do these people get out of it again? And the thing is the fatter I get, the prettier I am, right? You have to believe that. It shows a sign of wealth. You have to believe that.

And then they'll come in and go, well, Jim's looking very holy at the moment. And I'll be like, damn straight. Get me some chicken. We talked about white nights. You said that was when they were practicing or they were doing run-throughs. Do you know how many practice runs that they did? I don't know.

Probably at least a dozen, if not more. I would have been like, if you, and so what happens if you didn't drink the Kool-Aid at practice night? Because if you didn't drink it on reality day, they shot you. So if you didn't do it on white night practice night, what happened if you didn't do it then?

Well, you'd probably be punished or you might be put in that mental hospital and drugged. Right, that's worth it. What was the six-day siege? Was that the six days leading up to the event? No, the six-day siege was, he would do the, he became more and more paranoid,

which is quite typical, and so he would do these drills where he would call everybody together and they'd have to stand in front of the gathering place in the compound and just and be surrounded by the guards with guns and things and they would just have to stand there as long as he wanted to and apparently one of them was for six days and because he said you know the the evil people were coming and they were going to be killed or whatever. So he did those drills, which were different from the white knights.

Is the paranoia justified or is it just straight paranoia? Like are people actually coming for these guys and they're right or they just went cuckoo? Well, I think the paranoid is typical. I mean, most of these leaders are narcissists and paranoia is a common characteristic of a narcissist. They always think somebody's out to get them or somebody's going to do something to them or whatever. So it's just, and I think also because many of these groups, or at least the leader, becomes very sequestered,

very isolated from everyone else, and so they kind of go a little crazy with their thoughts. And what was the death tape? Well, the death tape was, he was, he, Jim said it was a video. It was actually just an audio tape of the whole thing, of the orders at the beginning and everyone being told to drink the Kool-Aid and dying. So it's a very dreadful tape that got released sometime after the whole incident

by the government. Why did they release it? The government. It seems like it would be terrible. It feels like an educational. You need to know. You need to hear these things. We can't, you know.

I guess. History doesn't repeat. It's hard to imagine how bad things really are unless you see or hear them like your imagination is not as evil as real i mean like when when you see that photo of all the bodies just lying on top of each other i mean that's that's so horrible um and who was christine miller was she a high-ranking member of the Temple? Yeah, Christine Miller basically tried to get them not to do the suicide and kept saying, why don't we just escape to the Soviet Union? Why don't we just get on planes and escape?

And she pretty much got shot down. And what was the politician who was out there, what was he trying to achieve? Were they trying to expedite? That was Leo Ryan. He was the California Congressman and what happened is oh God, I can't think of her name. Anyway, there was a woman who was allowed to leave and basically they took everyone's passports away.

But there was one woman who had her passport, and they would give her a lot of the money, and she would take it and put it in banks in Switzerland and stuff. And one of the times she basically went to America, and she met with people from the Congress and tried to tell them what was going on there, like all the abuses and that people couldn't leave and they didn't have their passports and all of that. And so Congressman Ryan, because he was from California and the cult came from California, he took some people from the government as well as a bunch of reporters and journalists and photographers from some of the news stations. And he went there to investigate, to see what was going on.

Right. And so he, okay, arguably because these are all American citizens, was it all American citizens or was there Australians there or British people? No, it was pretty much all American citizens, yeah. And so when Leoo ryan went there with all these people then they you were saying that some of them are shot jim or is that what happened to they were shot on the runway yeah so what happened i mean jim was right about that they they put on a big show and made like everybody was so happy and as they were about to leave

people started passing notes to some of the photographers and journalists and so they showed them to congressman ryan and he came back and he said well wait a minute we got these notes of some people who want to leave and so jones said okay leave if you want to leave leave and so people were crying because one part of the family would want to leave and the other one wouldn't whatever and they said we could only take so many people. We have this small plane. So then they all got in these Jeeps and they drove to the little airport. And Jones sent his henchmen after them and said, take care of them. So they were all shot in the airfield. Congressman Ryan was killed. A very well-known photographer from, I think, CBS was killed. Jackie Speier, who just finished being a congresswoman, who was his aide, she got brutally shot. It's a miracle she didn't die.

And so then they went back and reported to Jones, we killed all these people. And that's when he was like, oh, shit, the show is over so that that's when he decided to do the real kool-aid and did he commit suicide with a gun i believe rather than yes he did the arsenic so he made everyone else ride around in pain and he right he did his own death himself in the head so that was the same day so they shot him on the runway and then they came back and they were like we're in trouble because this congressman's dead. Now he's like, it's time. Yeah, yeah, because then the government's coming for real.

Yeah, got it. Okay. Wow. At any stage, Jim Jones is going, oh, fuck this up, didn't I? I overplayed me hand here. How did Jim Jones' son survive? Did he spit out the Kool-Aid? Yeah, he had two sons, actually,

but the sons were in Georgetown at a basketball tournament. Oh, okay. And some people went there to kill the ones who were there because they were with some adults as well. And so some people did get killed, but his son managed not to um and he had two sons one birth son and one adopted son who was black and they're both still alive and they don't have too much good to say about their father and do they do documentaries and whatnot or do they keep on one of them did i know one of them actually i think it was ABC,

did a documentary where they took him back to the compound. Oh, my gosh. Years and years later. It was just all deserted, but you could still, they found the vat that the Kool-Aid was in and the old buildings all crumbled were there. It's a good documentary. It was pretty traumatic for him to go back there like that.

And that land still hasn't been rebuilt or anything. It's just sitting there, is it? It'd be hard to sell on Zillow, that one there. Maybe you can put a park or something. I don't know. Did they live near civilization? Was there a town nearby? Well, they lived on the edge of the jungle.

I'm not sure how far away the town was, Georgetown, which was the capital. So that's where they got their groceries was there a raft there i don't think guiana is not that big of a country yeah i think they grew their they grew all their own food i'm sure if somebody dies in the house you're trying to sell you have to disclose that is there like yeah did anyone die here like uh i'm surprised they're allowed to go to a basket yeah it's like 900 or so we have cleaned up since then well if like if your grandfather dies in his sleep no murdered murdered sorry i think i think he definitely just died in his sleep and some of the then they brought the bodies

back and they're in a cemetery some of them have never been claimed but there's a there's kind of a tribute in the it's called an evergreen cemetery in oakland um where every year on november 18th there's sort of a memorial service that happens with relatives and people who were around at that time and did anyone who survived the cult still um believe in its preachings after this has all happened years later? Well, there was a lot of tension with some of the people who were back in the States where some people became completely disaffected at that point, and some already were, and then there were other true believers. So people were threatened, and there was some conflict that went on for a while, yeah.

Because there's still, like, if you watch the Waco documentaries, there's still people who are fully into Kresh still. Oh, yeah, they think he's coming back. Yeah, yeah. So there must have been money, though, still after that, right? I guess the government seizes that or something? Yeah, the money, you know, these three guys were assigned to to take the money to the soviet union um and i don't know i actually don't know what happened with that did the soviet union know that they were planning on coming did they

have visas sorted out or anything like that or was it just like oh no i don't think they ever were really going to go there i mean i doubt the soviet union would let in you know 900 over 900 people they had enough trouble feeding the people who were there and also in the 70 there wasn't a lot of black people in in russia yeah it would have they would have stood out or yeah um american accents as well it would have been a thing you figured you'd do better on waco than two oh i like waco because there's a bit of singing you know singing yeah because because chris always had a band he always had a bad there was two fighters how was that he was you know i i have this theory that a lot of cult leaders are um disappointed rock star wannabes go charles manson yeah david

correct and manson was another one. Exactly. And there's a guy in Sedona, Gabriel of Sedona, only he's left Sedona. I mean, so many of them think, you know,

wish they had been rock stars. Jared Leto. Yeah. Is Jared Leto a cult? Is that guy? What is that thing he does? Right. There's that one too.

What's he doing? I don't know. I just saw a picture of him in a white robe and I. He's a cult leader. What's he doing? I don't know. I just saw a picture of him in a white robe, and I went outside in a white robe. He's got kind of a cult-y thing going on. Yeah, he's got a cult-y thing going, yeah. They call themselves the Echelon. I met him once. I met him once at a party.

He didn't seem too cult-y. Guess he didn't want you in his cult. He didn't get recruited. Yeah, first night, told you he didn't want you? No. He was like, hey, cult leader to cult leader. You have failed to join any cults, Jim.

What's wrong with you? No one wants me in a cult. It's because I'm lazy. Yep. We're going to put up a house. What if the Scientologists called you jokers and demeanors or something?

I'm a demeanor. I'm a joker and a demeanor. That's why Scientology doesn't want me. I don't have any fun. Scientology has no funny people. No one's humorous in the group. Right, right. I know you had Ian on your show.

Yeah, yeah. He was awesome. He's a great guy. Where was I at here? Oh, yeah, dinner party facts hmm this is the part of time of our episode where we ask our expert to give us a fact something that's obscure interesting about this topic that our audience can use to impress people if it comes up do you have anything dr. Laila yeah I think I

think what most people don't realize is that because most of these leaders are called charismatic leaders, and I think most people think that charisma is a trait that someone is born with, right? It's a personality trait, but in fact, that is not what charisma is. Charisma is a social relationship, meaning that you are the person who decides that someone is charismatic, right? So you are granting them that specialness, and you are granting them that power. And so once you decide someone is charismatic, they, in a sense, already have power over you. And that's why also some people may think, you know, Barack Obama is charismatic, or john kennedy or whoever and other people might go oh no oh no it's because it's a very individual thing that's a really good point yeah i never

thought about that actually yeah most person i think you go oh you met that person they're lovely then you meet them nice at all yeah because that's true like some people like like you said barack obama or trump or like there Obama or Trump, you wouldn't find a lot in the Venn diagram there of people that thought they were charismatic on both ends, but there are people that think that. I also assume, too, that people who are attempting to be cult leaders turn the charm on when they're around people that they feel like they could mold. Right, compress people.

Right. And that's the thing with being in a cult is you're always walking on eggshells because you don't know if it's the nice, wonderful leader who's going to turn up or the monster. Did your cult have an outfit? No. Well, no, but we just had to dress like working class people. Oh, like a communist-y type of thing. What's that one where they all dress in orange

and they've got the Indian leader who drives around? Rajneesh. That's Rajneesh. Osho. What's that one? I mean, there's still millions of followers of Osho, and he was an absolute sex abuser. He was horrible.

Pig of a man. I don't know if I know that one. Do cult leaders not like you, you think? Because it seems like you're doing all this work. You like you're, not seems like you're doing all this work. You write a lot of books, but you're doing all this work to help people recovering from cults and calling them out and stuff.

Do you find that that's a thing? Do I find what? That cult leaders don't like you as a person. Like, because. Yeah, probably not. I have been sued twice. I think you're very charming. Charisma.

No, I'm sure they don't like me. You've been sued twice. I think you're very charming. Charisma. No, I'm sure they don't like me. You've been sued twice, you said? I try to be clever about how I talk about cults so that they can't sue me. But most cults are public figures, so they have to take it. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. I think they're um i know your answer on this is there such a thing as a harmless cult no there are cults exist on a continuum from more dangerous to relatively benign but for me in if something is a cult, it means that it is taking away your autonomy, right?

Your decision-making powers. So even if it's a chocolate chip cookie cult, it can't be good for you if you're losing your autonomy. Right. So they may not be killing people or they may not be doing sexual abuse or they may not be doing whatever, but it's still not healthy for your own development. what's the most benign cult you've heard of uh i talk a lot about the chocolate chip cookie cult when you're when you're in the cult uh do you know you're in it at any stage?

Like, not like right before you leave. Like, do you all sit around going, we're all in a cult, right? We all know we're in a cult. But like you think, because all cults are religions that didn't work out, right? No, well, cults are not necessarily religious, right? There can be anything. But I think what, to me, here's how I understand it, and especially There can be anything. But what I think would have, to me, here's how I understand it, and especially from my own experience. The whole time you're in,

you have doubts about things, but there's no way you can express those doubts, because you can't, you know, you can't say to someone, oh, this is fucked up, you know, pardon my French, you know, you can't say to someone, the leader's a little cuckoo or whatever. So you store these things on a shelf in the back of your head. And then one day, one thing too much happens and the shelf breaks. Now, when the shelf breaks, you don't necessarily think you're in a cult, but you think there's something not right here and maybe this isn't the best place for me to be then that'll that'll keep increasing in your mind and if you're lucky you can work your way out and again that'll depend on the cult it'll depend on how far removed you are from society it depend on if you think you

have any resources out in the world so hopefully the shelf broke enough that you will slowly wend your way out. Did you at any stage, I'm not saying now because it's a long time ago, but did you at any stage feel any guilt for the people that you recruited? Absolutely. I felt enormous guilt. I was suicidal for a long time after I left because I was in high leadership and I was in the inner circle.

So I knew what was going on. I knew the corruption. I knew the corruption. I knew the money flaggling. I knew the leader was an alcoholic maniac, megalomaniac. And I modeled myself after her and the second in command. So I was like a bitch. I mean, I was nasty. I led criticisms. I expelled people. I had women get abortions. I told people not to go visit their families. So when I got out, I was like, oh my God, how did I become that person? And I had to spend a long time dealing with that. And on some level, I still do. I think that's in part why I do what I do.

Yeah, no, no. Since you were so high up, I assume there was a lot of resistance to you leaving. How did you navigate that section? Well, actually, what happened is I was actually planning my escape, but sort of by chance, most people who were kind of in the inner circle were completely burned out because we had been members from the beginning. And so we actually finally had our revolution and we overthrew our leader. Oh, awesome. She was drunk and just sleeping in a chair.

And we called everyone together and we told them what was going on. And it took a couple of weeks to convince people. what was going on and it took a couple of weeks to convince people and then we the night before she was coming back we took a vote and we voted unanimously to expel her and unanimously to dissolve the organization so we all got out oh that's great except for that one person that was hard of hearing they didn't hear that part you still dare um dr yja Lalic, thank you for being here. Please visit JanjaLalic.com. That's J-A-N-J-A-L-A-L-I-C-H.com. There's all sorts of books and resources and things on there that you can use to find out about cults or learn about recovering or so on.

Thank you for being here. Thanks. Thanks for inviting me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. You were great being here. Thanks. Thanks for inviting me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. You're a great doctor. I appreciate that. Yeah.

And before we go, Dr. Lalich, can you tell us a little bit about your nonprofit? Sure. It's the Lalich Center on Cults and Coercion. And we're really just in the process of formation, but we do have our tax deductible status. And we are offering a bunch of programs at this point. And so the temporary website where people can sign up for the mailing list is www.lalichcenter.org. Hey, ladies and gentlemen, if you're at a party and someone comes up to you

and goes, look, I'm not in a cult, right, but there's this leader, he's a charming fellow, and he's going to help us. And there's a spaceship we got, just go, I don't know about that, walk away. That's right.