I Don't Know About That - Musical Theatre

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

In this episode, the team discusses musical theatre with Director, Choreographer, Producer and Arts Leader, Matthew Gardiner. Follow Matthew on Instagram @ MattCGardiner . Go to Matthew-Gardiner.com to learn more! Go to JimJefferies.com to buy tickets to Jim's upcoming tour, The Moist Tour.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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deer you might find out but I don't know about that with Jim Jefferies I'd run out of things to say I always look around the room we have a dildo in the corner it has the bathroom key on it

to be clear we've brought it on the podcast before I rubbed it all over I like how Jack said it has the bathroom key to be clear it's not just sitting there as some gratuitous

bit of smut in the corner it has a purpose yeah you go to the bathroom with it it disappears we just got back. We were in Chicago. We were in New York. We did Indianapolis.

Maybe the finest gigs of my life. I thank you for the standing ovations. Thank you. My legs have withered away, what, from being carried on everyone's shoulders everywhere. It was such a fantastic time. No, we're pre-recording this. This comes out afterwards.

So something horrendous has happened. You can reference this point right now. Jack, what do you got for us? We have Life Hackets. Oh, actually, what shows can I sell now that those ones are sold? Come to the Ace Theater. No, no, no. There's stuff in October.

Fort Lauderdale. Fort Myers. Fort Lauderdale. Jacksonville. So it's October 8th through the 10th. Fort Myers. Fort Lauderdale. Jacksonville. So it's October 8th through the 10th. Florida tickets. Go to jimjeffries.com. People of Florida, come out and see me.

You know that COVID's not real. New Orleans. New Orleans. Then we've got the Ace Theater coming up in November. New Orleans, Austin, Dallas, Oklahoma City. Cancun. I'll be in Cancun in November doing gigs. So we've got lots of big gigs coming.

Yep. And then Los Angeles at the 6th and 7th in November. Yeah, my favorite gig is Los Angeles. It's good because my friends come out and I get to hang out with my family backstage. And I very much look forward to those shows every year. What do you got, Jack? For something moderately uncomfortable, there's somebody who's responsible for figuring out the impossible.

It's Jack with his live hackets. Yay! I love live hackets. The other day with Jack Hackets, I actually showed Jack my drinking out of the carton hacket, and he was- It's live hacket approved. Do you want to re-describe it for the group?

Yeah, you got to do it. Okay, so you know big milk cartons? Your voice got interesting. I didn't know I didn't know I did that. They have the tip or whatever and if you try to drink it normally the tip hits your nose and you can't drink it right.

Jim's brilliant life hack. You turn it 90 degrees and drink it this way so the top bit goes to the side of your nose. It works brilliant life hack. You turn it 90 degrees and drink it this way so the top bit goes to the side of your nose. It works like a charm. It doesn't feel natural because the weight distribution isn't quite right because it's so far over your face, but you make a good seal on that little hole. You'll have some lovely

milk without tilting your head back too far. Also works with orange juice. How about cups? A cup you just drink always the same way. No hacks on that. It's just a big circle. Straightforward.

There's no use with a cup coming in sideways. A sippy cup? Sippy cups, yeah, no, that's straight up. You just have that beginning. Sippy cups. At my house, I've got babies now full of sippy cups. I'm sippy cup ready. I'm not pouring into cups.

Oh. All right, first life hack today. Hey. Hey. You got a dead battery? This is the worst part of life hack. I think it's the best part. It's one of those rectangular ones. Stick it on your tongue. Some people hate these life

hackets. Some people love them. Some people are so neutral and skip the segment. Who loves them? I do. It just turns out. Two people. I love them. Some people are so neutral and skip the segment. Who loves them? I do. It just turns out. Two people. I love them. It turns out that the internet can be a nasty place. Yeah, it turns out people hate my guts on there.

Oh, God. Anyone who wants to be famous, prepare to be hated. It's not fun being in the public eye at all. You're meant to be famous because people love you. But it doesn't turn out that way. Fear and it takes something that you enjoy. You notice are the nice ones. You only notice the angry ones.

Anyway, you got a dead car battery and you need to jump. I've been in that situation. And oh no, the terminals are all corroded. You look at me because you know. I know you hate what I do. You had to say pour boiling water over the top of the terminals? No. You pour Coca-Cola on that sucker and it clears it up.

Coca-Cola. What can it not do? It cleans toilets. It tastes good. Wait, wait, wait, wait. You pour Coca-Cola on what? On the contacts you'd put the clips on. To get the corrosion away.

And then how do you get the stuff off there? Just wipe it away. The ants come and eat it. It takes days. But mechanics use this trick. I learned this from my friend whose uncle's a mechanic. He's like, yeah, I use the coke trick all the time.

So it's a thing. Yeah, good work. So that one's good. That's a good one. I'll use that one. What about the brush that cleans the terminals? The what? They sell a brush that's the... Wait, you have to buy something that's meant to do it? No, this is all about stuff that's not supposed to do it. You have to buy the Coca-Cola though. Yeah, but that's like to drink.

Jack already has Coca-Cola on him at all times. I got emergency Cokes in the trunk. This isn't like MacGyver. You can't go, yeah, you want to get a screw out? Get a screwdriver. That's not going to help. It's because you don't have a screwdriver. How do you get a screw out?

You get a Popsicle stick. That's right. And another stick, and then you put them on with rubber bands, and you spin sideways. Fucking hell. Don't talk to me like I'm an idiot. Okay. Next, this is one my dad came up with when he was visiting.

This is a Hackett Hackett. This is a Hackett Hackett. This is dad Hackett approved. So he likes to run, and his clothes are always sweaty. So if you don't want to hang them in the bathroom, what he found out is if you put the clothes on a hanger, you can take a face mask and put it around the railing and hang the hangers on the face mask ear bits.

So you don't scrap the railing? You don't scrape the railing? Are we trying to protect the railing? No, just like the hook. You just said it, rapes. No, I didn't. I don't know what word I was trying to say. Raps.

Raps. Raps. Wait, has your dad just tried throwing his sweaty clothes in the washer? Well, he's like in a hotel. So there's a railing. It's too thick for the hanger. So you put the mask. Oh, the railing's too thick. So you put the hanger and then the things, the whole. But that's a railing. It's too thick for the hanger. So you put the mask. Oh, the railing's too thick.

So you put the hanger and then the things, the whole. But that isn't strong enough. That breaks off on my ears all the time. How would that carry the weight? It would have to be a fabric mask. It couldn't be one of those. No, it was a medical one. I don't believe that.

I have a picture right here. I don't either. Wait, what? All right. If he's got a picture. Yeah, see. And Lewis will send it to you so you can put it up. Oh, your dad hangs it outside on the balcony.

Where's that at? Pasadena Hotel. Cool. Your dad lives in Pasadena in a hotel? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's where he lives. He just stays there to relax. He likes looking at the mountains.

Doesn't even call Jack when he's there. I was in Pasadena right near you. Could have called you. I was driving my clothes. Next life hack. These are going great so far. All right. This is the best segment so far.

I'm ready for it to go horribly wrong. They haven't been bad. No, they're not bad. No, I feel bad usually. Why do you feel bad? I'm very supportive. I know. You're just so supportive. I don't know why I feel bad usually. Why do you feel bad? I'm very supportive. I know. You're just so supportive.

I don't know why I feel bad. It's a mystery. Are you embarrassed by your chopstick skills? Like you don't know how to use them very well? I'll say this about me. My chopstick skills are excellent. Mine are pretty good. Do you do it properly or are you just able to do it?

I can do it. Because I don't do it properly, but I can use chopstick. I have my modified method, but if someone that knows how to use it sees me, they'll be like, you're doing it wrong, but I can do it. I have two chopstick hacks but if someone that knows how to use it sees me, they'll be like, you're doing it wrong, but I can do it. I have two chopstick hacks today. Oh, wow. The first one is-

The first one's a fork. It is. It is. The second one's using your hands. If you're embarrassed by chopstick skills, but want Asian food, go to Thai restaurants because they don't use chopsticks very often.

They use them very sparingly, and it's very normal in Thailand to just use forks. So if you don't want to look like an idiot, go to a Thai restaurant. If you want sushi and then you buy the sushi, then you go sit

at a Thai restaurant and you're like, give me a fork. It's the law. That's right. You can get a fork at any Asian restaurant. That's kind of embarrassing,

but it's totally normal to use a fork at a Thai restaurant. You can just not be insecure. If you don't want to use chopsticks, go to a steakhouse. Well, you know, I thought you guys would find it interesting that the culture in Thailand is they mostly

use forks. Anyway, that's the fun fact there. Anyway, the next one is a real chopstick trick, and I bought my own chopsticks to show you. Wait, wait, you have personal chopsticks? Dang. I have a case of chopsticks. I like it. Those are nice. So a trick I learned in

Atlanta at a Chinese restaurant was to help train kids how to use chopsticks. I'm surprised I don't see it anymore, but if you get the... Like put the little thing on the hinge. Yeah, yeah. The hinge. The hinge should.

All right, great. That was it. All right, just give me the chopsticks. What do you mean? You've never seen this? I haven't seen it anywhere else since the restaurant in Atlanta. Oh, no, no.

Everybody does. Yeah, they all do. They all do that. Yeah since the restaurant in Atlanta. Oh, no, no. Everywhere does it. Yeah, they all do it. They all do that. Yeah, it's for kids. It's the whole world. You thought it was that one restaurant? I don't know. I've just never seen it.

Do you want me to put it together? Betty Hunter does it. I'll just pass it to her, and then she'll pass it to me. All right. She's still describing in case other people haven't seen it. Yeah, show us how to do it. I was going to. All right.

So give me that water bottle. We'll see Chopstick's skills. If we can pick it up. There you go. Good form. There you go. The mug. Here's some wire.

Chopstick skills. How about this? That's a big heavy apple. You can't do that I can pick up a pair of Ray-Bans can you eat any of this stuff though? no I can't do that I'm sorry for anyone who's just listening to this

200,000 people only listening to this podcast so I do the two fingers like that that's how I do it now Forrest said he doesn't know if he does it right oh I don't do it right I know I don't do it right I just do it like this you don't cross do you?

yeah don't cross but try to pick up some water bottles. Yeah, I do something similar to that. I don't do it like completely wrong, but you know, like throw shit around. I can pick up glasses. Glasses are hard.

Glasses are hard. You can't pick up glasses and some chopsticks. I tried that. Gotta go to Thailand. If you want to put those sunglasses on, go to Thailand. You'll be right. Pick them up with a fork.

Stop them. All right, show us the hack. Show the hack. So you get the disposable chopsticks, that little wrapping paper. You roll that up into a tube like so. And then you put it near the back, pinch it in between.

Now you have to bring a rubber band with you. Yeah. They have little plastic mold things that go over the top and do this. And then you wrap it around like so. It's like the thing they sell to clean the batteries. Yeah. Can we have a time lapse on this?

And then it springs open. It's good for kids. It's good for people who don't know it. Yeah, but you can only pick up small amounts. You can't get the wide scoops. You can't get the wide scoops.

Sushi roll, like a sushi roll. Like when you're getting rice out of a bowl, you got to lift the bowl up, tilt it, bring it to your mouth, scooping up, scooping up. Anyway.

So do you bring these chopsticks to restaurants? I do, yeah. I have my own chopsticks. You bring to restaurants? I got a whole box of them. I've got chopsticks too, but I don't bring them to restaurants. I do, yeah. I have my own chopsticks. You bring to restaurants? I've got a whole box of them. I've got chopsticks too, but I don't bring them to restaurants. I've got some fancy ones when I was high.

I've got some nice ones, but I don't bring them to restaurants. I use them at home. I don't bring them to restaurants. I'm not an animal. That's what Jack said he does. I do. All right, so that's all of them. That's all I got today.

All right. Nice. Let's read some ads. All right. How do you feel, Jack? I don't know anymore. That was good. I thought you did really good. I thought it was pretty good. How do you feel, Jack? I don't know anymore. I thought you did really good. I thought it was pretty good.

I thought you did really good. I told you, mine's all tough love. Sometimes it just feels tough. Yeah, but there's love in there. You got to search for it. You got to use the chopsticks. All right. All right. This next the tough part of it. I'm going to use your fork.

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Never again. I love shopping, just not in the ground beef aisle. Oh, my God. I never know when to get it because do I get it after I get all my stuff? Do I get it before the frozen things or afterwards? How cold do I have to keep it? Wouldn't it be good if it just came to my house? In fact, like it's written here on this sheet,

the deal is a no-brainer. I didn't know that's what minced meat was. Minced meat? Yeah, minced meat. I always thought it was like minced. Yeah, like minced garlic. Yeah, grounding, mincing. Oh, yeah, when you mince something, I know, yeah, but okay.

All right, keep going. Sorry. Good to know. Okay, process is so simple that I can handle it. That's what they've written here. Maybe the person that was writing that wrote that. The process is so simple that even a buck-toothed moron like me who can barely wash his own arsehole without the use of a hallowed tushy

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I'd recommend standing next to me whilst I play golf. But if you don't want to do that, you can't find me because I'm like the A team. It starts with looking good for the part. Before cuts, Jack had no respect on the course, none. We were like, you're a moron. You can't bloody do anything with Coca-Cola, you're stupid. And now we say, you might be all those things, but you look good, son. Well, you can only guess.

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That's cutsclothing.com slash IDK for 15% off the only shirt wearing. The only shirt worth wearing. Worth wearing. All right, please welcome our guest today, Matthew Gardner. G'day, Matthew. Now it's time to play. Yes, no. Yes, no.

Yes, no. Yes, no. Judging a book by its cover. Have we got sound problems already? I saw you two look at each other. There was a little crackle and then you two look at each other like, we had one job. Are we okay? You want to start over?

You want to start over? No, I like this. There's no crackle that time. Okay, great. And Matthew can't hear any of the stings, so he's like, what the hell is wrong with these people? I've got to talk to Matthew. Okay, so we're ready to go.

Don't do it again, Jack. Take your finger off. Yeah, we're good. Okay. G'day, Matthew. Now, I know. Okay, so I'm looking at the room that you're in. Now, this is the brickwork, the large sort of bricks like that,

and those lights that come down with the – it's not on the wall. The switches? You mean the conduit? Yeah, the conduit, yeah. I believe you're backstage in an office of a theatre. You're correct. I've been to a lot of theatres, man. I know how they bloody set up their lights.

I was like, where is he going with the bricks and stuff? No, no, I know a theatre's there. I know that grey couch. I've slept on one of them before. I should have picked a different background. All right. So is your specialty the theatre? It is.

All right. Have I picked it? Musical theatre. That's what I thought. Musical theatre. You were saying Chicago earlier. Boom, boom. Oh, I thought it was going to be Chicago.

Okay. I was going to get Kelly said Chicago out loud before I go, shut up. Now, I studied musical theater in university. Since then, my love affair with musical theater has been lacking. I haven't given her enough attention. So I don't know if I might sound like a bit of a buffoon here, but I may do well. We try to keep the questions for you pretty basic. And then if you have questions for him later, then we're interested to do that.

All right, all right, all right. Let me introduce Matthew properly. Matthew Gardner is a director, choreographer, producer, and arts leader residing in Washington, D.C., where he is the artistic director of Signature Theater. Matthew is a recipient of three Helen Hayes Awards for Outstanding Director of a Musical. He holds a BFA in directing from Carnegie Mellon University and is a member of the Society for Stage Directors and Choreographers. His Instagram is Matt C. Gardner, and that's G-A-R-D-I-N-E-R,

and his website is matthew-gardner.com. Thanks for coming on the podcast. You can tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you got to this point in your life through musical theater, if you want. Yeah, yeah yeah of course um thanks for having me on i you know i have been doing theater since i was a young kid i saw like a a terribly miscast production of uh the whiz that my cousin was in when i was five years old i never should have put marco jackson in that if we knew what we know now.

What was he doing it at the preschool for? We're coming in hot today. And then I, you know, I've been acting as a kid. And I, as has already been said, I went to college at Carnegie Mellon University and got a BFA in drama and specifically in direction. And I have been at Signature Theater where I'm currently sitting right now for 16 years. I started as the resident assistant director and am now the artistic director. Amazing. Great. So I think Jim's going to do better than...

Okay, so the university I went to is very prestigious in Australia. amazing great so I think Jim's going to do better than I just okay so the university I went to is very prestigious in Australia I just want to see if he knows do you know Whopper

no oh man that was like the Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts Hugh Jackman went there that's the big thing right yes

you know him yeah yeah I've heard of him okay so I'm going to ask Jim some questions about musical theater, see what he knows, and then at the end of that, you can grade him on his accuracy, Matthew, 0 through 10, 10 being the best.

And Kelly's going to grade him on confidence, I'm going to grade him, et cetera. We'll add them all together, and if you get 21 to 30 points, singing in the rain, 11 to 20, talking in the snow, 0 to 10, yelling into the void. 11 to 20, Talking in the Snow. 0 to 10, Yelling into the Void. Alright, so first question. Very good first.

First question. I'm not into music. I haven't watched a lot of musicals. Singing in the Rain is like the only one I've ever seen. So I was like, alright, we've got to work on that one. Alright, what are the roots of musical theater? Like where did it begin? Where did it begin?

Yeah, just how did it come up? It would have been something that derived from opera to begin with, and opera classically is just sung. The whole thing is sung. You know what I mean? When musical theater is spoken, then sung, and spoken, then sung. And when you say the roots, I reckon it just would have been, it's the same thing as when rock music turns into pop music,

turns into R&B, you know, the fads move along and things evolve. I believe it would have come from opera to begin with. And then you had like musicals that almost were musicals and then were almost operas. So you've got like Roger and Hammerstein. No, not Roger. Gilbert and Sutherland. Gilbert and Sutherland you could classify as both opera and musical theatre at the same time.

Things like Pirates of Penzance and The Mikado and stuff like that. Why are there always two of them together? Because it's hard to write things, man. It's always someone and someone. Someone writes the music, someone writes the words, sometimes they contribute to both. Sometimes, you know.

So the difference between musical theater and opera is just operas. Opera is more operatic. You know, because then, okay, so even when you go back to- You can't say the word again. Okay,

when you go, when you go back through opera, you've got things like people, purists will still go, no, Wagner. Wagner is a thing. And Mozart is cheap,

fluffy crap. And then you're going to Puccini and Puccini's, oh, they're just doing crowd-pleasing songs and all that type of stuff. So, yeah, I don't know what your question was, but that's... I said the difference between musical and theatre and opera. You said opera they sing the whole time, musical theatre they do it. Opera they sing the whole time mostly and mostly in musical theatre.

For the most part, it's English-spoken sort of thing. I'm sure there'll be people who will go, oh, no, there's a good Japanese musical theatre show that you don't know. But for the most part, it's sung in English where opera is German, French, Italian, et cetera. What are book musicals? Book musicals? Yes, that was a question.

The Book of Mormons won. Okay. And Godspell, it fucking involves the Bible. Jesus Christ Superstar, they're all book musicals. Okay. Musicals based on books. What was the first musical? I don't know.

I thought you were going to say Korag the Caveman musical. That's what you always say when you don't know. No, no, no. It was way after that. It would probably be Jesus Christ Superstar. Which? The Year Zero. Which musical ushered in the golden age for musical theatre in 1943?

The golden age of musical theatre? Which musical? Which one musical ushered in the golden age for musical theater in 1943? Why was this show different? 1943. Okay. So now you're going back to, okay, so I like old musicals, but now you're going back into sort of My Fair Lady sort of,

actually that's like 1950s and that was julie andrews and i don't know 1943 1943 it would have been like hitler's doing well we're gonna win this war the musical yesterday during our pre-interview matthew said these are easy and you'd probably get them all you're not doing well we didn't do that we just performed musicals they didn't ask us the first one this is what my week was like. Do this dance step over and over and over again. Oh, that's my phone. How rude.

Sorry. Do this musical over and over again and sing a song, do a monologue. Off you go. And you did a little tiny bit, about one hour a week of musical history. All right. Let's just ask you a few more and then we can just get into these as we go along. off you go and you did a little tiny bit about one hour a week of musical history um all right well let's just ask you a few more and then we can just get into these as we go along what what how about this what is the longest running musical on broadway longest running musical on broadway uh this is okay so it's either phantom of the opera or lay miss uh i thought it was Cats. Or Cats. Yeah. But I'm going to say it's Phantom of the Opera.

What is the highest-grossing musical of all time? Highest-grossing musical of all time, I would probably say worldwide is Les Mis, but then there'd be an argument for West Side Story because the movie has done so well, and there's another movie coming out, and the soundtrack is one of the biggest-selling albums of all time.

But that doesn't count into the gross of the biggest selling albums of all time. But like, that doesn't count into the gross of ticket sales. I don't know. But like, if you're talking over, but I'll say Les Mis is the biggest grossing.

What are operettas? Operettas, operettas are little tiny, song little operettic parts. What? Is that right? Or are you just making that up? What did you even say?

I thought you were going to say it was a little tiny doctor. I thought he had a show Operator Do you think it's a little tiny opera? I'm doing so bad at this Okay maybe you'll get this one How many minutes are in a year?

Oh 10,000 I always sing that song like this 10,000, 2100100, 600, man. I don't know. I just say numbers. It's like when I'm doing Joseph and his amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. I just say every color I can think of.

It was red and green and blue and turquoise and brown and gray and off-white and eggshell. When are you doing these? Chartreuse. In the shower. Oh, okay. You're like, whenever I'm doing, okay. Who is Bob Fosse?

Bob Fosse is the guy who, he directed some musicals. He directed some movies. He was basically a choreographer. And sorry, the most sort of famous thing is Fosse hands like that. He did the dance steps for Chicago and Cabaret. And he directed the movie Lenny about Lenny Bruce with Dustin Hoffman. Cats was based on the work of which famous poet? Oh, I know this.

It's something like a C.J. Elliott or something, or not T.S. Elliott. Maybe T.S. Elliott. T.S. Elliott? Yeah, sure.

I didn't even know it was based on a poem And then West Side Story West Side Story is a remake of Romeo and Juliet So you're doing better now The original casting of Tony in the movie West Side Story Was going to be Elvis Presley I love West Side Story And Natalie Wood, you know, was good in it

But the singing What is a jukebox musical? story and Natalie Wood, you know, it was good in it, but the singing. What is a jukebox musical? Jukebox musical is when, I don't know this for sure, but I think it might be when you do things like Rock of Ages where you get songs that already exist and you put them into a storyline, similar to like We Will Rock You when they got all the Queen songs and they try to make, so there was a story that a Billy Joel one called Moving Out

and all that type of stuff. I don't know that for sure, but I think it's when they get existing songs and put them into musicals. So like Moulin Rouge would be a jukebox musical. Which pop legend wrote the music for Billy Elliot, the musical? Elton John. Oh, see, you're doing better now. We just got to get into the actual musical.

Yeah, the actual musicals. Yeah, you start off, Don't ask me technical questions. Like, what's a flute? I don't know. Name the Oscar, Emmy, Grammy, and Tony Award winning composer of musicals such as Cats, Evita, and Jesus Christ Superstar. That's Andrew Lloyd Webber. I think you're doing better now.

And Tim Rice with the lyrics. I'll ask you this, and we'll start talking to Matthew. We'll get into a conversation about it. What are your top five musicals, like ranks? I put West Side Story as the number one musical of all time, and I'll fight anyone who says different. So that's number one. I'm a big fan being Australian.

I love The Boy From Oz, which is the story of Peter Allen that Hugh Jackman won the Tony Award for. I love that. Les Mis is never a fail for me. I always think that's my wife's favourite musical. She's obsessed with Les Mis and has been since she was a little child. That's three. I like the old ones.

I like one of my big show-stopping tunes in university when I had to sing for an exam or something. I used to do Freddie's song from My Fair Lady. So My Fair Lady has a soft spot, and I still own the original recording with Julie Andrews in it before they brought in that hussy, bloody what's-her-name, that everyone thinks is good-looking, but he just smokes cigarettes all the time. What's-her-name? Audrey Hepburn.

Audrey Hepburn. Any time you go over to a girl's house, if she has a picture of Audrey Hepburn and Marilyn Monroe on the thing, get the fuck out of there. I used to. That's a basic ass, I won't say the word, but that's no good.

Well, you know, I'm really into chick flicks. The Breakfast at Tiffany's is not... It's about a prostitute who fucked everyone over. That's not the problem. The problem is she's not a terrible person. She's terrible. She's terrible. Even at the end, she throws her cat out of the cab

in the rain. You're like, what the fuck is going on? All right. One more musical. What's your top five? I can, I can,

Henry Mancini wrote Moon River and he was also right. Baby Elephant Walk. So there's one more. You need one more. And your top five, you have West Side Story, The Boy From Oz. Escape to Margaritaville. Yeah. Is that a musical? Oh, yeah more. On your top five, you have West Side Story, The Boy from Oz.

Escape to Margaritaville. Is that a musical? Oh, yeah. Is that Jimmy Buffett? I have the t-shirt, the poster. I'm going to pick like an old school one that I enjoyed as a kid. Haven't these all been old school? Yeah, but I like the old school.

I still see the new ones. I'm going to put fucking Brigadoon in there, man. I did that as a high school musical. I still hum tunes from Brigadoon to this day. Sinatra used to do covers of songs fucking Brigadoon in there, man. I did that as a high school musical. I still hum tunes from Brigadoon to this day. Sinatra used to do covers of songs from Brigadoon. And since they've made the TV show Schmigadoon, which I was obsessed with Schmigadoon. I fucking loved it.

Yeah, he called me talking to me about it, like as if I talked to you about musicals all the time. I'm like, I don't know. It was. I've seen Singing in the Rain and Hamilton and that's about it. It was a Roger and Hammerstein take off and they did bits of Sound of Music they had bits of Oklahoma

they had bits of Brigadoon in there it was fantastic Matthew, how did Jim do on his knowledge of musicals? 0 through 10, 10's the best on his knowledge of the roots of musical theatre? just everything I asked him. All the questions.

All of it? Yeah. I mean, I would give him like a seven. Right? We would agree on that. He did pretty good at the end there. Yeah. Yeah.

You didn't feel confident until the end? The early stuff is, when's the first one? I'd give you a seven as well. That was a tough one. 14. I'm going to give you seven. So you're at 21, so you're singing on the right. Yay!

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This is the best deal offered right now. Head to headspace.com slash IDK. All right, Matthew. So what are the roots of musical theater? Like how did it begin? Jim said derived from opera, but how did it? Yeah. I mean, that's not far off.

I mean, some people would argue that musical theater goes all the way back to ancient Greece and like Commedia dell'arte had dance and singing in it. But opera sort of in the 1800s was sort of the birth of like music and theater combined. And Jim sort of hinted at this as well, like the real sort of the place most people say where contemporary musical theater came from is operetta in France and Vienna, which then basically it was the combination in America of operetta along with vaudeville and burlesque and, and yes, even minstrel shows that sort of combined to create what we know of as musical theater today.

Yeah. I didn't ask that. I was supposed to ask what is vaudeville too but yeah vaudeville is a tricky one it's always seems to be like like it's like uh some guy comes out and falls over a bit gets some laughs then a woman comes out and sings a song another black juggles and then they do magic tricks that involve making your head look like it's elevating and coming back to you because every time there's like some like like like act like uh the the boy with tape on his mouth or or um men in coats or comedy acts everyone's goes oh they're all they're vaudeville routines and it's like what are you talking about you fucking mean to vaudeville shut the fuck up i don't even know what what is what is vaudeville mean i don't know if that yeah yeah i mean vaudeville comes is is a French term that basically was at the when it was in France was speaking towards a type of theater that included dance and ballet and everything.

And then when it came to America, it turned into sort of different segments. So 10 to 15 segments that would include singers, dancers, comedians. It's a variety show. Over a hundred different vaudeville houses throughout the country. My grandfather was actually a vaudeville performer and his act was just to walk on a wheel. That's where the Marx Brothers got started. His grandfather's also a mouse. And you mentioned burlesque, think too right because that yeah i when i first moved to los angeles um i was trying to get gigs wherever i could and we would do stand-up on these

burlesque shows and i never understood i guess that like historically that was a thing but i just felt like when i was a weird guy like like like i watched the movie chaplin the other day so charlie chaplin basically played the best drunk you could play. Like he fell over and he would act like he was in the audience and then come up and try to light a cigarette and burn his hand and then fall on his back. And so all the like the stooges and all that type of stuff. There's a lot of slapstick in vaudeville from what I can tell.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess W.C. Fields is probably involved in that too. All right. So what is the difference between musical theater and opera? Jim said all singing versus some talking. Some talking in musical theater.

I mean, that's basically what it is, right? You know, operetta is somewhere between opera and musical theater, right? And operetta was where they started to introduce the idea of some spoken text in a lighter, thematically lighter themed story. Was I right in saying Gilbert and Sutherland was that type of,

was operetta and stuff? Yeah. Totally is. I wonder when the first person that sang was. That must have been weird. Like everyone was just talking and then some guy just. It's like everything. It was someone trying to play off something else, right?

So there was a guy who was rocking around, some kid hit a football into his nuts, and he went, oh, happy days. It was Josh Gad's grandfather. Yeah. What are book musicals? Jim said Book of Mormon is one. Godspell.

All based on books. So a book... I mean, Book of Mormon would be a book musical. Basically anything that was written post the show from 1943, for the most part, can be considered a book musical. It is the seamless integration between music, lyrics, and book. Book being the term that we use in the world of musical theater to denote the script or the spoken text in a show. So a book musical sort of like dramatically the songs and the lyrics all work together to tell a dramatic story.

Oh, I appreciate you hiding the answer to that one. But you can say that the one from 1943. That was Oklahoma. Oklahoma. Oh, shit. OK, I'll tell you oklahoma i was in the musical oklahoma i played curly in high school and it's the only it's the longest word i can spell because of that song okay l-a-h-o-m-a oklahoma is the longest to this day if that comes up on scrabble i'm like fucking i'm all over this bitch are there non book musicals

yeah so there are like sung just musicals that sort of are just music or they're like musical reviews or so there are various like Godspell actually I wouldn't consider

a book musical I would consider that more of a sort of musical based around a theme that is all songs. It's sort of like a musical. It's like more rant. Like the book musical, to my understanding, is like something that just creates the cohesive story where everything goes towards pushing. Is Cats considered a book or is that not a book?

Because that one's kind of a rant. I just want to go back to Oklahoma for a second. So Roger and Hammerstein, I believe that I can tell you the structure of every single Roger and Hammerstein musical. They follow a very strict, this is what happens. Guy comes out, sings I Want a Beautiful Morning or something like that where he says everything's perfect, my life can't change, I don't want to change my life in any way, right?

Then someone comes in, some girl that's about to change his life and we know about it right away. Then someone always, Calamity Jane or Oklahoma, someone always comes back from the city to the small town and tells us what's going on in the city, right? Just got back from the windy city. The windy city is mighty pretty, but they ain't got what we got. They do all that stuff, right?

And everyone's like, tell us about that. Is there someone on a telephone? You know? And so they do that. Then there's always one side character, male or female, that has to sing a song like, I'm just a girl who can't say no. Like they do like that, right? That's a song, right?

It is a song. I'm not making that up. From Oklahoma. I always say, come on, let's go. Just when I ought to say next, when a fella tries to kiss me, I know I ought to give him a slap. But when someone tries to kiss me, I kind of really ought to kiss him back. Can't do that song anymore

Anyway Wait, wait, when you say nope Do you really can't do that song anymore? You can, you can, but it's sort of You wouldn't want a new one Like I think Even in the last two years as we've sort of like Left the world of live performances

For two years, I think there are certain musicals That one would raise an eyebrow to about approaching again, just because of the gender politics of the show are tricky now. Yeah. Well, even though you go to sound of music, she starts off like a hill is reliable.

Same. Everything's perfect. Then a bit of thing comes in and then she meets a fellow, the fellow changes the way her heart and this side character, always the same formula, but what you were saying about how songs you can I mentioned Freddie's song from My Fair Lady, which is

it's called On The Street Where You Live right, and it's like I have often walked down the street before, it's basically a guy stalking, it's a song of a stalker, just a guy like I'm standing out the front of your house, waiting for you to come out well that's a nice stalker, just a guy like, I'm standing out the front of your house, waiting for you to come out. Wow, that's a nice stalker song, though.

Yeah. What was the first musical? Do we know that? Yeah, it's Black Crook, which was 1908, I think. But yeah, Black Crook. No, sorry, 1860 is considered the first musical Black Crook. I know the first opera in English was Dido and Anais

but it doesn't help you, the first English spoken opera. That didn't even sound like English Dido and Anais, yeah, it was about Greek gods and stuff like that, I don't know So then in 1943, Oklahoma ushered in the golden age musical theater oh I didn't ask this how did immigration

play a role in musical theater I don't know that question's in here I'm not sure why what do you mean immigration there's an answer oh okay I didn't just come up with random shit and throw it in a document do you want me to say

yeah I mean it is interesting because it's you know as with Do you want me to say? Yeah. We don't need that. I mean, it is interesting because it's, you know, as with many things, lots of different immigrants are coming to the island of Manhattan and bringing all of their culture and all of their artistic traditions. And in so sort of everything combined to create musical theater. So a lot of people say one of the starting places of the American musical was George Cohen, who is an Irish immigrant standing on stage and singing, I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy, which was definitely like sort of a political statement to say, like, I'm the same as you

at a time when Irish immigrants were being discriminated against. Then you have the Jewish immigrants and you have the black immigrants coming up from the south and all of that converging together. underheard voices are sort of elevating their culture through art, which sort of gave birth to the musical theater. Who was it who wrote, he was a Jewish immigrant, and he wrote God Bless America. And he used to sing it. What's his bloody name?

He's like a famous. Irvin Berlin. Irvin Berlin, right? I always like that when I see some redneck going, God bless America. And I'm going, I hope you knew who wrote it, son. Well, and back then too, performers were mostly seen as lower workers, right? Now performers are... You go to the theater to see these performers

and people are excited about it, whereas it used to be more of like a lower class job. yeah and still using some comedy clubs yeah yeah and so they would um that that was the thing is it was interesting because people in the audience the upper and middle class people would come and watch it and look down upon the performers but it was really one of the few ways that people with those talents could sort of like elevate themselves or one of them. Yeah. I feel like that's like so much entertainment's like that,

whether it's like, you know, musical theater or music itself or even sports and stuff like that, that has made that whole switch where it used to be like the audience or fans would come and think they were better than them. And now they're it that's flipped money yeah no i know but it's interesting and then the power is like shifted although there's still not a lot of money to be made being in the chorus of a musical like it's a it's a tough fucking job it's a real like because as i said i studied it and there was a moment in my life where i thought maybe that would be something i'd do for a job

and now i go to musicals and i look at them all doing backflips and running around the place going fuck you know I wouldn't have lasted five seconds you need someone to play a log this is the log song I could be a log I could play Mr. Cellophane in Chicago the end um uh let's hear it what is the longest running I could be a lot. I could play Mr. Cellophane in Chicago, the end. Let's see here. What is the longest running musical on Broadway?

You said Phantom, the Opera, or Les Mis, or Cats. I think it's Phantom of the Opera. It is Phantom of the Opera. It's been on Broadway since 1988. Wow, I want to guess Cats. And I don't know anything about musicals, so I don't know why I would have guessed that like I said I've only for a very long time Cats was

the longest running show on Broadway and it had the tagline basically like from now and forever Cats so it sort of is in and then the movie came out and they stopped I think maybe in the West End in the West End it might be Les Mis, Broadway.

It might be because they have that sign over Les Mis. They might as well put the sign up like, our cast is tired. Check it out. Is Cats a good musical? I've never been a huge fan of Cats, but I know people who love it, who lose their shit over it. I've seen it a couple of times. The movie was so atrocious. I had to be so high

to even get... What the fuck does Jellicle mean? I can't believe it. That's another podcast. I'll tell you all about Mr. Mistoffelees and what he got up to. Yeah, I've never been, I guess my mom, it's just me and my mom grew up, and I think she liked the, what's the one?

Hair. That was a musical she liked, Hair, because she was a hippie, and that was kind of like that. I have to credit my mother for my love of musicals. My mother was always watching musicals on the TV. And then in Australia, we didn't have what you have here in America. It's sort of similar to what we have here in L.A. You have one show that's touring at the Pantages and you go see that.

And there was always one production, not just in your city, but touring around Australia. I think they have Hamilton at the moment, right? And so they just have this one musical tour. And so you really got to see one new musical a year and it was the one that was in town. My mother took me to all of them. So one of the first things I did with my son when he was, you know,

four or something like that, the first music I took him to was Charlie and the Chocolate Factory when we were in London because I thought that's going to be a light. He's seen the movie and he'll have a like. The thing about musicals now, modern day musicals, when you're talking like Aladdin, anything from the Disney world especially, it's a lot about production and a lot of fucking magic tricks. Yeah.

You know, it's like Beauty and the Beast. When he changes from Beast into the Prince, you go, how the fuck did they fucking do it? And then like you're watching Aladdin like, that carpet better fucking fly. Everyone's dancing and hiding behind boxes and stuff like that. So I think for kids now, that's a little hook that sort of gets them into it. It's almost like watching a Cirque du Soleil show in comparison to the older one.

Yeah, like that part in Wicked when she flies up. That's so profound. It's such a huge moment. Wicked is such a great show to see live. I would say it started with the chandelier in Phantom of the Opera We all heard this story that the chandelier is going to fall on top of you You think you're going to be crushed to death And it wisps off the thing

And the whole musical starts with a curtain over the chandelier And then it rises up because it looks so perfect in the theatre Like it's always meant to be there I think that would have been the first big large prop Am I right? Yeah, I was about to say like that sort of started the whole move towards huge spectacle that led to like Miss Saigon with the helicopter. And yeah, the chandelier was definitely sort of the beginning

of the mega musical and the spectacle. Let's take out Brigadine, put in, what's her name? Miss Saigon. Miss Saigon, I love Miss Saigon. Miss Saigon was Madame Butterfly. Was it a rerun of Madame Butterfly? Based on the opera Madame Butterfly, yeah. Yeah, and so that's a hell of a good one.

Have you seen Spamalot? I have seen Spamalot, yes, yes, yes. Or Avenue Q. I loved Avenue Q. Avenue Q is fantastic. Those are in my top five for sure. I know a few guys who got to play the king in Spamalot. They started giving it to local comedians as the cast got weaker and weaker.

My brother was in it in Chicago. Because my middle brother was a musical theater major at University of Miami. So that's where I get any of my information from. So you guys have seen everything. Like I said, I'm telling you, I've only seen Singing in the Rain and Hamilton. I'll take you to one. I'll find you a good one. I'll take you to one.

I always say I'm not into musicals, whatever, but I'm really into tap dancing. I love tap dancing. And so someone told me to watch Singing in the Rain, so I did. There's never been a more graceful dancer than Gene Kelly. He had something light on his feet, that man.

But anyway, I'll tell you my tap dancing story. So I may have told you this already, but dancing was my Achilles heel in university, and I never passed, and I used to have to re-sit exams again. And when other students were moved forward in the class, I still had to get this one fucking dance step right. So anyway, we had tap dancing. Now in tap dancing, they have this thing called time steps that you have to get right.

And it's sort of like for your examination, do this time step, that time step. And so they basically were going to pass me as long as my feet were doing the right thing. My head was down. I was hunched over like a hunchback fucking tap dancing. I was not like. Anyway, so I lived in this sort uh, a part of this sort of two-story

townhouse in, um, Perth and it was all, uh, terracotta tiled floors. So they weren't perfect space to, to, uh, to, uh, tap on you'd scratch the floors. So I bought this bit of wood and the only place, cause it was quite a small place. The only place that I found that I could put this bit of wood to practice tap dancing on was at the top of the stairs. You can already see where this is going. I'm excited. So I woke up before, I woke up before me exams. I'm still just in me underwear. I put some socks on and some tap shoes on to practice these steps before I do the exam. I hit the side of the bit of the road. I cracked me head on the fucking stairs and I was unconscious at the bottom

until my girlfriend came home. You're just in boxers and tap shoes. I'm so glad I didn't die because it's such a hard story to tell people how they found the body. He died doing what he loved. We think. It felt like I was up to no good. Just in the underwear and tap shoes just with blood hanging out of my head.

Columbo couldn't have figured that one. There's no way he was just tap dancing. Well, someone like me, Matthew, and I'm sure there are other people listening to this podcast that aren't necessarily in the musicals. What do you think I should watch or what I should see? All I've seen is those two. I love that Jim said he would fight anybody because West side story is the,

the greatest musical. Cause I agree with that. Like in terms of like something coming together so cohesively, I think West side story is unmatched and West side story is about to have a new movie with, uh, um, Spielberg directed that.

I mean, so far the trailers for it look pretty decent. So I would encourage people to see that when it comes out this coming holiday season. Spielberg is directing West Side Story, the musical? Has directed it. It's already, it's in the editing booth right now. It's coming out.

I had a chance to be in the sitcom one day at a time, but I chose to do the Jim Jefferies show instead, but I was going to the sitcom one day at a time, but I chose to do the Jim Jeffery show instead. But I was going to be cast one day at a time. And I was going to be acting alongside of Rita, how do you say her name? Marino. Marino. And I was super excited because she was from West Side Story. She's also like 90 years old or something like that.

But I was super excited. Okay, so West Side Story. What other ones would you suggest? I mean, I think everybody right now loves Hamilton for good reason. Like it is an easy way into the world of musical theater in a way that is responsive to the musical, the music of this moment. Yeah. Right. So sometimes it's hard to get people into musicals when you're like

trying to push on them, popular music from the 1950s and the 1960s. And unless, you know, you're like Jim and I, and sort of were raised in the world of musical theater and have an appreciation for that time period. It can be hard to get people interested in that.

So, I mean, I feel like Rent, Hamilton... You're directing Rent coming up, right? I am. Awesome. Yes, you start that very soon, I think. I do.

Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, it's like the reopening of our theater after two years. Oh, it's the first show in two years at your theater. To literally pay the rent. I tell you what, I went along to Hamilton because I like old musicals so much, I kind of went kicking and screaming like, I don't want to see people rapping and whatever.

And me and your brother went. Me and Scott went. I had a wonderful time. We went and saw it. Me and Scott go to musicals together when in New York alright okay

so I'll start with those just watch the TV show Hamilton speaking of I've seen Hamilton I've seen I saw Singing in the Rain which I liked it

that's an old one and I liked that one you saw a theatre production of Singing in the Rain no I watched the movie oh okay well you gotta go to a show Forrest

fuck you know we'll find out what's at the penthouse. The only musical I've ever been to, we were on a junior high school trip and we were in Washington, DC, but I was in junior high and I just was, and we saw God's belt at the fourth theater where Lincoln was shot.

And I was just so enamored by the fact that the president had been shot. And I literally looked at the booth where Lincoln was shot the whole time. Like, Oh yeah, we're watching. And it was a Godspot. Is that what I said? Yeah.

Yeah. But I don't remember much of it at all. So, yeah, I guess I got to see one live. Look, I like most musicals. I have a couple that I have a little tiny, like, I don't want to bloody do. Fiddler on the Roof. It always looks like such a dreary musical. I've seen that so many times.

And it's just not pleasant every single time. I still don't know what it's about. Neither do I. I've seen it at least five times. Is there a fiddler on a roof? I don't know. I've never seen it. Oh, okay.

Speaking of rent, I asked Jim how many minutes are in a year? Are there 10,621,600 minutes? What was that? How does it go? 525,600 minutes. What was that? How does it go? 525,600 minutes. So I was off by a few minutes. Yeah, okay. 520, that's a lot of minutes.

All right. Who's Bob Fosse? Jim said famous choreographer, Fosse Hands. Chicago Cabaret directed Lenny. Yeah, his answer is perfect the Lenny actually that's a the not many people know that so that's where my comedy

and musical theater tastes collide into each other wait that's about Lenny Bruce about Lenny Bruce yeah okay and Bob Fosse has is alive or no he's passed away passed away they've got a drama with Michelle Williams Fosse is alive or no, he's passed away? Passed away. They've got a drama with... Michelle Williams.

Michelle Williams. Fosse murdered. And who's the guy? He's in it. My wife loves this actor. Who's the bloke? Sam. Sam.

Oh, Sam. You know Sam. He was in Three Billboards, played the cop. Yeah, Sam. Oh, yeah, Sam Rockwell. Rockwell, yeah. Sam Rockwell. Oh, yeah, he rocks.

Well. Rockwell. Whoa.well. Oh, yeah. He rocks. Well. Rockwell. Whoa. That was an accident. And I think Jim got, I don't know if he got these right. Cats was based on the work of which famous poet? Is it T.S. Eliot? I think I've got that wrong.

I know it's. Oh, it's correct. I got it right. Boom. It's a poem. Boom. What's the poem? I just thought it was a bunch of cats.

It's a series of poems written by T.S. Eliot. It's called The Jellicle Journal. It wasn't about cats, the poems. It was about other stuff and they made him the cats? No, it was his. T.S. Eliot was basically writing a...

He was speaking about the hierarchy and the class system in London. In telling or speaking about that he did it through cats okay that makes sense I didn't think T.S. Eliot wrote a poem about cats

they were about cats but they were like disguising like how animals animals but it has a metaphor for other things. Is that a book musical? No. It's a poem musical.

I just verified. I was cut off earlier. Sorry, Matthew, go ahead. One could say there's a journey to cats, but for the most part, it's just a bunch of songs. It's a bunch of the poems turned into songs. And I don't like the musical Cats.

Mayhem ensues. I'm not a big fan of Cats either. And I love Cats, but I don't like Cats. What's the worst musical? That's an opinion. No, I'm asking Matthew. Are you allowed to say Matthew? Cats.

I just don't need adults acting like they're animals and then rubbing up against me in the front row. Get up there and sing a song next to your oversized fucking can of baked beans. Oh, they come down and rub on you? They jump around. There was one lady who tried to sue one of the members of Cats because they act like cats. They come and sit on your lap and shit.

Sometimes they're a bit gregarious and they throw a leg up on your shoulder. But you know what you're in for when you fucking go to Cats. Don't try to me too a fucking cat. They're doing ten fucking performances a week, right? There's going to be some audience collateral damage here. This lady was like, and then

the cat just grabbed my head and pushed it into the groin. I was like, get the fuck out of here. It's Cats. You're going to sue your cat when it comes and sits on your face no you just get irritated and move on with your day uh jukebox musical jim said is when you do things like rock of ages and take songs that already exist and put them in a storyline i think you said billy joel do as well yeah 100 that's what it is so that's like picking songs from one catalog and putting them into a story.

So Rock of Ages, Motown, the musical, Moving Out, which is the Billy Joel musical. Jersey Boys. I tell you the best jukebox musical, in my opinion, Mamma Mia. Mamma Mia, you have a good time at Mamma Mia. You go along and you're like, those songs work perfectly. They have songs that actually tell stories in them about hope and joy and loss and love and all that type of stuff.

Some of the other ones, there was a Rod Stewart one called I Am Sailing which was, they were trying to make those songs match together. It's like, hey, I'd like to go out with you. If you think I'm sexy and you want my body, come on, baby, let me know. And that's like a relatively more modern type of musical, the jukebox. Yeah, yeah, that's sort of. It'll be 30 years now.

Yeah, I'm sure there are probably earlier examples of a jukebox musical, but they've picked up prominence in the 90s and 2000s. And movies like Moulin Rouge really sort of pushed that along, where that became sort of... Oh, I've seen that. Okay, I've seen another musical. I didn't like La La Land. People love La La Land, but I didn't like it.

I didn't like it. I liked The Heights. It just came out. I thought that was very good. I wasn't into La La Land. I love La La Land, but I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I liked The Heights. It just came out. I thought that was very good. I wasn't into La La Land. I guess I've seen some more musical movies. I was on a bad date for La La Land. I love La La Land.

Yeah, because the jukebox ones, it's funny because it's like Bruce Springsteen has a musical. I'm like, what? He's just like, there's American Idiot, Green Day. I love that one, too. There's about to be a musical in D.C. that's all Britney Spears music. Does she get the money? I'm in. Does she get the money?

It's called One More Time. I don't know who gets the money. If I couldn't go, I'd just stand out the front with a bit of cardboard that says free Britney tickets. Free Britney tickets, pretty good. Free Britney tickets. That good. Free Britney tickets. That's a good one, Jim. Maybe your best joke ever.

Which pop legend wrote the music for Billy Elliot, the musical you said Elton John. That is correct. Elton John in the original casting in the West End production of Billy Elliot was Tom Holland, who you all know as Spider-Man. And his father is a man called Dominic Holland, who is a friend of mine who was a stand-up comedian that I worked with. And I remember seeing Tom when he was just a little boy,

this little five-year-old hanging out with his dad. And I hear you've directed Billy Elliot as well. I have directed and choreographed it here at Signature, yeah. What has been your favorite show so far to work on, work in, work on, whatever? What's your favorite? So I was lucky enough to direct a production of West Side Story maybe

like five or six years ago because it's my favorite musical. We do at Signature, we do a lot of Sondheim musicals, so Sunday in the Park with George, Passion, Sweeney Todd, those are also all great. I reckon Stephen Sondheim is at the top of the ladder when it comes,

when you're in university studying musical theatre. It's like if you come in and you sing an Andrew Lloyd Webber song at one of the classes, you're a fucking hack. And if you come in and you sing Sondheim, this person knows. Sending the clouds. Oh, this person knows what they're talking about. You're nodding your head. Is that accurate?

Yeah. It's interesting. You know, Stephen Sondheim and Andrew Lloyd Webber have the same birth date and are considered like the two Titans of the, the American musical but are definitely polarizing. Like you either sort of land in the Sondheim camp or you land in the Andrew Lloyd Webber camp.

I used to, in my twenties, I was very Sondheim camp and now I'm like live and let live. I like them all. So Stephen Sondheim was the lyricist for West Side Story. Bernstein, what's his name? Leonard Bernstein. Yeah, Leonard Bernstein.

So Leonard Bernstein wrote the music. Stephen Sondheim, I think, was like 21, what I want to say. He was very, very young. And he wrote the lyrics. And there's things that are in that musical from like a young bloke that an older bloke probably wouldn't have done. Like just the song Maria is just the same word basically sung over and over and over and over and over again.

And it's beautiful, but you would never, I don't know, it wasn't in the structures. It was like taking a risk. That was like a real different thing. But like my favourite song from West Side Story is There's something due any day I will know right away soon as it shows All atonal stuff that goes off And then maybe tonight

And it doesn't end on like a major drop Like a fifth to a first or anything like that And it leaves you going Ooh, something is about to happen It's like the tension in it There's stuff in the music that's telling the story Just the notes are telling stories More than just the dialogue and the thing It's telling the story. Just the notes are telling stories more than just the dialogue

and the thing. It's amazing. And right before the interval when they all come together and the Jets are going to have their way tonight and tonight, all the music's overlapping and it all comes together like fucking the end of Abbey Road and you're like, this is brilliant. Fantastic.

Yeah. I agree. It is a great show. How many productions have you directed? I would say 50 or so in my, you know, professionally, I have either directed or choreographed over 50 plays or musicals. Wow. Okay.

I want to do a quiz with you. Let's see if we can both do it. Let's name, and you got someone might have to Google this. Let's name all of Andrew Lloyd Webber's musicals in order. You can do one. Then I'll do one. We'll go back. I think I can do this.

I think I can do this. Let me see if I have a list first. I think I can do this. Okay. Yes. I have them in order now. Okay. Okay.

So I believe number one is Joseph and his amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. That's number two. That was his second one. He wrote that for the girls' school down the road, though. You've already blown it, Jim. You fucking suck at this game, man. He wrote that for a local primary school. What was he writing before, for kindergarten?

The likes of us in 1965 shows as his first. Bullshit. Okay, so after Joseph's Amazing Technical or Dreamcoat. Okay, why did I do this to myself? I thought Matthew goes. Okay, you go next. Is it Jesus Christ Superstar? I knew Jesus Christ Superstar. I knew that one.

Jesus Christ Superstar. Okay. Then I'm going to say it's Phantom of the Opera no fuck me by Jeeves yeah I don't know I thought I knew this Phantom of the Opera cats love changes everything or some shit like that

I think there's a lot of things in here that you maybe wouldn't have even heard of no I don't know why this is a long list what's that? yeah fucking Evita after 5G's. What's that? Yeah, Evita's after that. Evita. Yeah, fucking Evita.

Some of Madonna's finest work. And we got Tell Me on a Sunday, then Cats. Tell Me on a Sunday is a good musical. That's an underrated musical. That's a take me to a park

that's covered in... Yeah, it's a good song. All right, sorry. I've gone off the rails. Let's go back to Forest. That was a good experiment, Jim. You did very good. I thought I'd do better and then I, sorry, I've gone off the rails. Let's go back to Forrest. That was a good experiment, Jim. You did very good. Yeah, I thought I'd do better, and then I got thrown

when I didn't know the first one. He wrote School of Rock. Yeah. He did write School of Rock, yeah. He did write School of Rock. Good for him. Good work, Andrew. Good for him.

Good for you. His brother's like a very good cello player, and he used to live off the name Lloyd Webber for a while, and then they'd bring him out and he'd play the cello when you couldn't get Andrew on a TV show. Yeah. Okay. And Cinderella.

All right. I was looking at the list. I think that we've done all the questions because we were talking about Andrew Webber there well we asked Matthew's number one but we had Jim do his top five we've got to hear your top five do we have any crossover?

we have one crossover yeah my top five, my number one would be West Side Story my second would be Sweeney Todd I like Sweeney Todd too my third would be Cabaret I Todd. I like Sweeney Todd too. I've only seen the movie. My third would be Cabaret. I don't agree on that one.

You don't like it? I don't like that one. It's too sly. My fourth would be Gypsy. I like Gypsy. I haven't seen it. And my fifth would be Sunday in the Park with George. I was about to go, very good. I've never seen it.

Sunday in the Park with George. I just had that thing where very good, I've never seen it. Sunday in the Park with George. I just had that thing where it's like, might as well lie, who's gonna know? What's your favorite song from it? Every other musical he knows he's been singing. Too hard to choose. George is in the park, Georgie, Georgie park, park. What is Sunday in the Park with George about? Sunday in the Park with george about um sunday in the park with george is about uh so as i describe it you'll be like that sounds dreadful but it's about

the creation of the pain the painting on the island of la grande jatte by george surratt and it's about his relationship and his creation of that painting and it was a um it's one of stephen sondheim's musicals with james Lapine and sort of, sort of changed the direction of musical theater, particularly like off-Broadway and independent creation of musical theater. and you're getting sneakily, you're enjoying yourself. There was a very good, I believe HBO or Showtime did an excellent documentary maybe four years ago, which everything you need to know about the guy from when he started and everything, go watch that. It's very good. It's funny when you said Sunday in the Park with George. I know the painting and I just didn't know George was Surratt's first name

because when I would study art history, I was like, I would just be Surratt. Does it have to memorize things? I didn't know it was Georgeratt's first name because when I would study art history, I was like, Surratt. Does it have to memorize things? I didn't know it was George Surratt. Okay. Got it. I wouldn't have known that without the musical. Oh, I didn't even know Hamilton was a person. I thought he was just a guy on the money. I don't look at

the money. I just give it away. Now for somebody who's fully immersed in musical theater, do you ever get annoyed like for me, my top five is mostly newer things and stuff like that. Does that annoy you when you're like there's roots here? I'm excited by

any person who loves musical theater and if that means that their favorite musicals are Cats and I don't know. Exactly. As long as people are getting into it, it's like listening to pop songs and then you might get deeper into other albums and then find other things. I feel the same way about stand-up comedy.

When someone mentions a comic, I'm not going to mention any names because I don't want to get into trouble. People who are perceived to be hacks or shit or whatever, that guy's not funny. You don't know what you're talking about. I'm just happy that someone's into fucking stand-up comedy, man. Yeah. That the art form that I've chosen to do for a living is being watched by people,

whether it be my taste or someone else's taste or whatever like that. Just people, because they might find me later on. Right. You know, they might, yeah. But I even find in comedy, too, when people tend, when people, their favorite comedians are newer ones, you get these people who think that they own, you know, comedy and they're like, oh, really?

Well, I like the older guys. And it's like, fucking shut up. The amount of people who are angry at me because I'm not still talking about cocaine and prostitutes is fucking beyond me. Just like, you used to be good. Maybe I grew up and you didn't. Or it's like, oh, you like Jim Jefferies? I like George Carlin.

Like, they always do this, like these legends. It's like, oh, you like Jim Jefferies? I like George Carlin. Like, they always do this, like, these legends. It's like, oh, well, if that's not your favorite comedian, then you don't know comedy. It's like, shut up. It's got to be Richard Pryor. Yeah, when someone writes, oh, you're my favorite comedian, someone writes underneath, really? Have you watched Blah Blah Blah?

Exactly. Just let people like what they fucking like and fuck off. I have a question. Go away. I have a question about, because you mentioned Hamilton. So when I saw it, Lin-Manuel Miranda, he wrote, did he write the music too?

He wrote everything. Wrote everything. Okay. So, amazing. Like, I watched and it was really good. The first five minutes I was like, not sure, and then it was amazing. It was great. And I remember afterwards being like, wow, that was really impressive that he wrote all the songs and music and stuff. But he's in it.

Is that common for the person that writes it? Very uncommon. Because he's, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but to me personally, he clearly was the least talented of the performers in that. Like I saw it on Disney Plus, and it was like Leslie Odom Jr. and I can't remember the other guy's name. And the guy that played the king, like all those people. I was like, these guys are so good

so it's not common for the person that writes it to be in it Lin-Manuel he sort of made a name for himself when he wrote In the Heights which he also starred in so it's sort of with his musicals it has become expected that he is in them

but I think he also well actually I don't know he might prefer he is in them, but I think he also, well, actually, I don't know. He might be, I don't know. He has the chops to be able to do it, right? So if you look at like. Yeah, I didn't say it was bad. I'm just saying everybody else was so good. Yeah.

Gilbert and Sutherland were a couple of fat guys with handlebar mustaches. They were about to come out and have a song, you know, like. Yeah. I always look, I watch that documentary about, and I know this is, well, it is musicals about those two guys, the Sherman brothers who were the guys that wrote everything for Disney and they used to sit down the whole, great documentary, and they sat down the hallway and they used to write a spoonful of sugar and all that type of stuff.

And they wrote those super color fragilistic type of songs in the Jungle Book and all that type of stuff. And those were just a couple of sort of blokes. One of them had a cane. He'd come back from the war and was walking around. They'd never be bloody singing it. They didn't have much of a voice. And there's another good documentary on the Disney thing.

The guy who wrote all the lyrics for Beauty and the Beast, and he also wrote the lyrics for Little Shop of Horrors, which is a great musical as well. Howard Ashman. Howard Ashman. There's a documentary on Disney Plus called Howard. I feel like you've promoted a lot of documentaries. No, but I watch a lot of documentaries and I

only tell you the ones that are good. I watch all the documentaries. That one called Howard's very good. I don't think he lived to see Beauty and the Beast ever actually be made. He died of AIDS and he was, I think, the first person to be given an Oscar

posthumously. Did you not know how to say that word? Yes, I think, the first person to be given an Oscar. Posthumously? Posthumously, yeah. Did you not know how to say that word? Yes, I did not know how to say it. I can only just spell Oklahoma, right? You're like doing this. That's why I have Jack.

Posthumously. That's a very good document. I will actually say, I reckon the movie, that's a fun good – I will actually say I reckon the movie, that's a fun little musical to watch. Little Shop of Horrors, Rick Moranis, Steve Martin. It's very easy to watch. I think Suddenly Seymour is one of the great sort of music sort of songs, and it's a modern-day musical of its time. People's sort of New York accents, Jersey type of feel.

It's a good one. Well – It has a big puppet, and who doesn't love them? I think that – I, I, I mean, I don't know everybody in our audience here, but I think there are a lot of people that probably are in the same boat that I am. And if so, then you've got some things you can watch now, documentaries, musicals that Matthew suggested or Jim and.

Well, go out and see West Side Story. Go ahead and see that. Cause that's going to be a very palatable thing. I'll tell you, I'll tell you this this, men, if you're out there, there's never a better date movie than West Side Story. You want to take a girl to West Side Story, you're going to have a good time, man. I'm telling you. I'm not saying she's going to have sex with you.

I'm just saying she'll enjoy the film. Yeah, but she can't say no song is from Oklahoma, right? Yeah. So take her to Oklahoma. All right, so this is part of the podcast called Dinner Party Facts. We asked our expert to give us like a fact

that's obscure, interesting, that the audience can use to impress people if the subject of musical theater comes up. Do you have anything for us? Yeah, I had one, but since we've been talking

so much about West Side Story, I think I'm going to change it. And that is West Side Story was originally called I'm going to change it. West Side Story was originally called East Side Story when they were originally developing it, and it was about the relationship between an Italian Catholic girl and an Orthodox Jewish boy. And in the development process,

they decided that that relationship was not as interesting as what it ultimately ended up being. Wow. East side story. East side story doesn't sound as good either. I like how people in Manhattan think all the bits are so different. Fucking hell, it's a small island you can walk in three hours. Calm down, everyone.

I've always thought that about Manhattan people when they try to act tough. They're like this, hey, if you grew up in Hell's Kitchen like I did, then you're like, what, three blocks from the theater district? Yeah, but I never went there. Well, thank you for being with us, Matthew Gardner. And

again, you can follow him on Instagram at Matt C. Gardner. G-A-R-D-I-N-E-R. And his website is Matthew-Gardner, and if you're in the D.C. area, right, that's starting next week, you said?

Performances start November 2nd, so there's some time. Go along to that. At the Signature Theatre, correct? Correct. I want to say, this is a joy for me, I love talking about this shit, and I don't at the Signature Theatre, correct? Correct. All right. I want to say this is a joy for me.

I love talking about this shit, and I don't get many opportunities hanging out with Forrest and whatnot. Uncultured swine. Yeah, I could talk about this for another two hours. I really could. So thank you so much for being on the podcast, man. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you're ever at a dinner party and someone comes up to you and goes you know it was originally called north side story go well i don't know about that and walk away okay i just i just thought of something i want to mention just before a little bit of bonus well matthew matthew just asked you a question yeah matthew said aren't you meant to be performing in a Broadway musical or something soon? I was like, not exactly. What's happened is, and this gig I think has already happened

maybe last week, but I'm performing at the Beacon Theatre and Jim Gaffigan, a friend of mine, he's performing at Radio City Musical. And the Tony Awards, because they haven't gone on for a while, are now crying because Jim Jefferies and Jim Gaffigan took all the theatre spaces and we can't have the Tony Awards. Go fuck yourself. I booked this a year ago just because you're dragging your feet.

Your whole business is theatres. Your whole fucking business is theaters get in there quicker don't tell me you have to refund tickets so you can have your award maybe maybe if you gave me an award maybe if you found a way we could come to some type of agreement you should see if you could co-host it like you do your show and then you're like now the tony awards okay i got a little bit of hugh jackman in. I do. From an unfortunate night. They knew how much Jim Jefferies knew about musical theatre. Maybe they, you know,

could have had you be the host. I was at a dinner party the other night and there was some people there from RuPaul's Drag Race, right? And for a year I watched RuPaul's Drag Race for bloody years. And I was talking to Trixie Mattel and I said, they never let me be a judge. I used to write to RuPaul going, I watch the show.

I take it seriously. I won't take the piss. I know everything about drag queens. Please let me be a judge. People started a small Twitter campaign, never got to be a fucking drag. It's reverse discrimination. How did I not fucking get that job? I really wanted it.

I had enough profile. They were letting on bloody nobodies to be fucking judges. I'm not saying I'm a somebody, but I knew that job. I really wanted it. I had enough profile. They were letting on bloody nobodies to be fucking judges. I'm not saying I'm a somebody, but I knew the stuff. I feel like they had to think there was no way that you were genuinely a fan. But you've talked about it so many times on podcasts and all that stuff. There is no way there wasn't a meeting where my name was brought up. My friend worked for that company and was trying to get you as a judge and just no one was taking it.

They thought I'd get up and sit at the top and go, you're all a bunch of cunts. And I could walk out like I was going to take it seriously. I'm very upset by the whole thing. Is it done now completely? Oh, no, no. RuPaul's Drag Race is bigger than ever. You've still got a chance.

We're going to make this happen. Guys, tweet with the hashtag, most people can't spell your last name, it turns out. That's all right. Jim for Drag Race. Is that the handle you just came up with? Yeah turns out Jim for Drag Race is that the handle you just came up with yeah

hashtag Jim for Drag Race that's pretty good I bet you're glad you stayed on for this bit of a podcast I want I want y'all to do an episode now

about drag me too we could possibly get Trixie I think we should get Trixie yeah let's get her I met Trixie and she's the

number one drag queen in the world and she does big theater. She does stand-up and the singing and everything. And Justin Martindale is really good friends with her. And we know Justin. Yeah, we can do that for sure. We've talked about it.

Yeah, it'll be in the works. We'll get it at some point. Yeah. I was so cliche. I was at the dinner party, and I said like this, I wasn't even drinking. You know when you think, oh, this is a good talking point? I was a proud Australian and I went like this.

I looked at Trixie and I went, yeah, and I didn't say you people, but I said, I said, I said, that Priscilla Queen in the desert must have helped you lot out a lot. Well, now you're not hosting Drag Race. No, I was like, it brought it to the mainstream. That was before Drag, it was where everyone went to the movies and watched it. It was become because it was more underground before that.

I feel like that was a big moment. I think he appeased me and said, yes, it was. But then afterwards I said, I walked away from the party like this, Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, you idiot. It's Wong Fu. No, two Wong Fu, Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar is a movie they did after Priscilla, Queen of the Desert you idiot it's Wong Fu no two Wong Fu thanks for everything Julie Neumar

is a movie they did after Priscilla Queen of the Desert and it was we watched it one night yeah I didn't think it was I thought you said

it was bad I didn't think it was bad Sean Penn's brother gets in there and he one of the stories he says where to find gay people

and he was like ballet school flower shops. Like, holy hell. I said, if Justin Bieber can find it real quick. Oh, yeah, right. He has a list. He has a list.

And I was like, no one's that dumb. Surely. I have it. I have the list. It's flower shops, ballet schools, flight attendant lounges, restaurants for brunch. Restaurants for brunch. Wait, that's a list he has in the movie.

I can't read what number five is. It's ant-something. I don't know what it is. And also, they all go into a small town that has all these buildings and no roads. It's all dirt. It's all dirt. I haven't seen that in so long. It's a weird film.

I guess it is terrible. Probably just a backlot somewhere. And they don't really do it as a comedy, and they sort of do. And then, you know, Patrick Swayze's great and everything. I don't know why you won't do more movies. Hashtag Jim for Drag Race. And Wesley Snipes stopped doing movies too. It was weird.

All right, mate. Sorry for bringing you back for that, mate. I appreciate it. See you next time. Have a good one. Thank you all. All right. Thanks, Matthew.