I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 108. “We achieved FIRE with $4.3M. Why can’t we enjoy it?”

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

Mindy and Carl are in their early 50s with two teenage children and a successful track record flipping real estate that’s helped them build a $4.3M fortune. But as devoted members of the Financial Independence community, they struggle to talk, think, and spend it in healthy ways. This episode is brought to you by: Trade | Right now, Trade is offering our audience a free bag of coffee with any subscription at https://drinktrade.com/ramit. Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at https://facet.com/ramit. Fabric by Gerber Life | Protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. Apply today in just 10 minutes at https://meetfabric.com/ramit. LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at https://drinklmnt.com/RAMIT. Links mentioned in this episode • Get the Podcast Newsletter and exclusive Q&A about the show Connect with Ramit • Get Money Coaching with Ramit  • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube • Submit a question for the newsletter iwt.com/askramit  If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

He never spends any money. What is Lisa Calli-Carol? El Chico? Mr. Chico? Yeah. I mean, that's a good thing to be not wasteful with your money and why spend actual dollars when you can spend points on a hotel instead. I feel security in the investments, but I don't want to touch them for the future.

Not to be too blunt, but when's the future? Well, the silence of mortality, maybe 10 more years. And, Yilder, you get the more you think about that very thing. I've heard you say prime spending years are 40 to 60, so... Aren't you two in that range? Yeah, we're dead center in the middle. I think it's really hard for us to look at ourselves and how we're spending money and acknowledge

that this isn't really what we want to be doing. We don't want to just keep throwing money on the pile and keep being cheap. I do look at everything based on how much it costs. And I don't need to, I shouldn't. I don't know how to change. Today's conversation is absolutely fascinating. Meet Mindy and Carl.

They're both right around 50 years old. And Mindy is well known in the fire community. That's financial independence retire early. In fact, I've spoken to her on her podcast before. What's fascinating is that they are worth over $4 million. And when I say they struggle to spend that money, I mean it. You're going to hear some fascinating stories. If you're watching this on YouTube, you're going to actually see the facial expressions. And I want to tell you why I'm bringing you this story of Mindy and Carl today, because I've gotten a few comments from people that we only feature

multi millionaires who have trouble spending. And I want to tell you, it's really important to me that we feature a very diverse set of guests on this show, wealthy, not wealthy, US-based, international, different races, different sexualities. We spend a lot of time seeking out couples, and I want to give a special shout out to the IWT podcast team for making that happen. Now, I think millionaire couples are so unusual that when we hear one, they stand out in our head. Think about it.

When was the last time besides this podcast that you actually heard a couple with millions of dollars talking about how they have trouble spending money? It never happens except on this show. And I share these stories not because I only want to feature multi-millionaires. That's not true. We have a lot of different diverse guests. But because I want to emphasize to you, there is no magical amount of money

where you will suddenly feel safe. There's no magical amount of money where you will suddenly flip a switch and become generous with money. Your feelings about money are highly uncorrelated with the amount in your bank account. So I'm going to continue to keep an eye on our guest selection process, but for now, meet Mindy and Carl in this absolutely fascinating conversation. Would you say we're cheap, Carl? Yeah, I'm thinking about the restaurant in New York City with our friends. Would you say we're cheap, Carl? Yeah, I'm thinking about the restaurant in New York City with our friends, a month ago.

Yeah. So we had good friends who had agreed to come up to visit us when we were in New York City. And I wanted to pay for the meal. They were going to travel two hours. And the first thing I did after he suggested the restaurant is I pulled up their menu and looked at how much everything cost. And I thought I had after I saw this is holy crap.

I have to tell Bob that we need to pick somewhere else. This is too expensive. And I thought better of it. I never did that. And I felt kind of ashamed for doing this. This is a really good friend who was making a big journey to come see us. What is it? And it turns out it was family style.

So they were large portions. It wasn't like one entree. Was that expensive? Mm hmm. It's still expensive though. Take me back to that menu moment. So your friend suggested this restaurant and you hang up the phone. And was that the first thing you did?

You pulled up the menu? It was the very first thing I did. Yes. And why did you do that? I guess that's how I approach most things in life. I'm always looking at the cost. I've always been obsessed with money. I probably have money scarcity issues.

I mean, probably I've been talking to you for like 60 seconds. I think we can safely make a bet on that one. What if you had not looked at the menu? What would you have felt? I probably would have looked at the price when I got to the restaurant. I would have done the same thing and then I would have had stomach anxiety,

maybe I'll roll mini panic attack and I would have tried to hide it and then moved on with dinner. Would you feel that physically in your body? Yeah, a little bit. Where? I guess my head and my heart, I would have just felt a little bit uncomfortable with it. I would look at that number and be like, oh, wow, this is going to be one of the most expensive meals I've never had in my entire life. I would have done some math in my head. I would have added up how much I thought the meal would have cost. And I would have tried to hide my emotions because I don't want to look like an

idiot or a cheap person in front of my friends. They had, but they're really good friends. We love them. And they made a big effort. And why was I thinking about money? Why did I even have this consideration? We should have been relishing the moment that we got to spend with these people who don't live near us. We get to see two or three times a year. Money should have had money should have been an afterthought. It's a lot of thinking. Yeah. Like we went to the went to a restaurant yesterday for breakfast and I saw that my daughter ordered an item that I had noticed was like the most expensive thing on the menu. It was a breakfast.

I don't know if you knew about that girl. What was it? Wow, she can it. It was $20. What was it? Like what was the dish? It was pancakes and eggs and sausage and I don't know French toast or something she got just it was like mound of food that she didn't need which is kind of wasteful and then When the bill arrived I looked I put my credit card in the thing and then I hit 25% tip and I'm like $99 for breakfast.

Oh my God, what did we order? It just seems like a lot of money for one meal. Is it going to, it is to us. I mean, it's not, it is to us in the regard that we don't spend $99 on a breakfast all the time. Is it going to ding my net worth? in the regard that we don't spend $99 on the breakfast all the time. Yeah. Is it going to ding my net worth? No.

But letting go is hard. I don't want to be wasteful because wasteful means. What if we run out of money? Mathematically, you know that's impossible. Yeah. So wasteful means what? I don't want to get, I don't want to spend and not get any joy out of it. I don't want to do something stupid with my money. I don't want to spend it and have a bad experience or spend it and have a bad time

or spend it and say, bad time or spend it and say that was it worth it. At their core, you'll find a pattern with cheap people and even ultra-fugal people. They're often terrified of tripping and falling and then having to eat in a Michelin starred restaurant every night for the rest of their lives. I'm actually serious. This is how the thought process goes. If I go to that restaurant and I spend money on it, I might actually like it. And then I have to eat out at those

kind of places for the rest of my life. You've heard this before. You've heard people say, I'm not the kind of person who needs to stay at a four seasons every time I travel. Let me tell you how I think about it. I've eaten at very nice restaurants and I've eaten at taco trucks and pizza places. I trust myself enough to know that I can eat at a nice place once in a while and not suddenly become addicted to seven-course meals. I have control over my spending. And just because I try something nice occasionally doesn't mean I'll lose all control. That's one of the things going on with cheap people. They are deeply afraid of losing control.

Now, when it comes to median carl, let's take a look at their numbers. I'll give you a quick rundown. Their assets, 925,000, their investments, 4,275,000, their savings, 10,000, real estate debt, 910,000. And if you add it all up, they're total net worth at roughly the age of 50 is $4.3 million. One of my favorite things to do when I travel is to go on a food tour and a coffee tour. I get exposed to different places and different foods and coffees I never would have known

about. One of the coffees that I'm drinking right now is Verve. Another one is Devotion. And then I've got a bunch of other obscure ones that I'm trying all the time. If you love drinking coffee like I do, check out Trade Coffee. Trade Coffee is today's sponsor. They are a coffee subscription service that makes it simple to discover new coffees and make great coffee at home.

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So I love hearing feedback like this. Upgrade your morning routine with better coffee. Right now, trade is offering our audience a free bag of coffee with any subscription purchase. Again, drinktrade.com slash remeat. So many of us chase ways to make money. Investing, Bitcoin, side hustles, basically anything to get more money. But what's interesting is that we rarely think about protecting ourselves. When you think about protecting yourself,

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Did your feelings magically change the next morning when you woke up knowing that you would hit your goals? No, I felt exactly the same. What? I'm shocked. You're telling me that after a lifetime of saving, you didn't magically turn into a when you woke up knowing that you would hit your goals. No, I felt exactly the same. What? I'm shocked. You're telling me that after a lifetime of saving, you didn't magically turn into a spe-

I thought, what am I been doing my whole life? How's that possible? I thought once you have the money in the spreadsheet and you show the 4% withdrawal rate, then everything changes. No, you're exactly right. And that's what I felt too. Like, why am I not happy?

Why do I feel pretty much the exact same? I started doing some research and I learned that happiness is mostly something that comes from you. It comes from the inside, not an external factor. I don't want to downplay the money. I'm still thankful for it, but it is an external circumstance.

And it was at that point, I learned, I probably have to work on myself a little bit, that money isn't going to be the, it's not going to flip a switch. I'm not going to be instantly happy. And I'm kind of foolish because I thought I would be. So six years later, after that very valuable realization, which is, I agree, insightful. What kind of work have you done on yourself? Not probably, I'll start over. What work have I done on myself? I try to pay attention to my mood all the time

and when I'm truly happy, make a note of it and figure out why I'm truly happy at that particular point. What was your answer going to be? You said not probably, can you finish that sentence for me? I was going to say not enough. I've cut myself so busy again, not a great life choice. I don't know if you can see behind me, but there are doors that I'm going to install in my house. I've been just as busy as I ever was at work in the past six years since I left. So I haven't taken time for myself to do as much introspective work as I think I should have. We have conversations about this frequently and we don't know how to proceed. Okay.

How hard was it for you to reach out to me to have this conversation? Well, I heard you on the Mad Fiance podcast and I was like, I need to talk to him about this. But we've talked before. Do you remember our conversation last time? Yes, yes. Years ago, I went on Mindy's podcast, Bigger Pockets,

and towards the end, I just asked her what her rich life was. She mentioned taking a trip with her family, got me interested. I started asking her a couple of questions, and suddenly she started crying. It was an amazing moment. Listen in, what would you do if you had to quadruple or 10x your spending on bikes? Tell me. Ooh, I would go on long distance bicycle trips. How would you plan this trip? Again, 10x

spending on this. Look at this discomfort on your face, Mindy, why? That's a lot because, first of all, I didn't have any time. I would have to be in the summer because they forget about that. And Mindy and the vision stick with the vision stop thinking about the dollar amount. You have the dollars. I do have the dollars. How long would your rich life by trippy? Probably two months. Oh, love it. That's amazing.

That's amazing. Mindy, you could do a lot of things. I can visually see you shrinking outside of the camera range. Can you tell me what's going on with you? This is uncomfortable because I don't think about things like this. Yeah, and what do you think about instead, Mindy? Saving. Mindy, you save.

You already won. You have enough. I know. It's time to shift into learning how to spend it. And this skill, you can see it. By the way, I hope everybody can see this because I think you have a lot of courage to do this with me. This is really hard stuff. So many thank you. You're being very courageous. This is, you're changing not just your own way of thinking, but what was passed down to you from your parents and possibly their parents.

And here we are. Look at this. We're talking about maybe hiring a photographer. It would cost $500. It would cost nothing. It would be a memory in your family for generations. Mindy, you're having the courage to discuss this. You think you'd have the courage to do it?

You wanted me to spend money on a bicycle trip. But it was quite a beautiful image that you painted for all of us, including yourself, about taking a trip. I was with you. I don't bike and I was like that sounds amazing at the end of that episode How did you feel once you know you went off on your own? I? Felt overwhelmed I don't think I can do it Yeah, and you talk about money professionally

All the time you talk about safe withdrawal rates, 4% Trinity, you talk about rule of 72, compound interest, diversification, real estate, all of it. And so what happened when we started talking about you and spending your money on the people you love? I felt panicky. I really felt in my chest. Not so much my head in my chest. Like I'm having heart type breathing. This is really difficult to talk about spending a lot of money. Okay. And so, did you ever take the bike trip? We did a trip to Germany instead. Our daughter was going to Germany with her school, so we went to Germany instead of the bike trip.

Cool. How was it? It was good. It was good. We had a great time. But we spent a lot of money on the airline tickets because we couldn't optimize for those. It ended up, I think, it was $6,000 to fly to Germany and back from our home airport. And that's probably the most we've ever spent on airline tickets.

Why are we talking about money right now? I asked how the trip was. Why are we talking about why are we talking about money right now? I Asked how the trip was because you're a repeat Yeah, I want to know how was the trip? Lovely we saw Berlin and Munich and we ate lots of German food and drank lots of German beer and had a very relaxing time All right now when I asked you how the trip was you said it was good like that relaxing time. All right. Now, when I asked you how the trip was, you said it was good. Like that. Trying to understand what was that referring to the price of the airline tickets?

Yes, I feel bad that we spent that much money on the airline tickets. I'd love to be able to drop $6,000 on airline tickets and not care. Well, you said that feels wasteful. When you took this trip and you came back, did friends ask you how the trip was? Yes. Did you tell anyone about the price of the airline tickets? I did. Who? Like the was it? What percentage of people who asked about Germany, did you tell about the airline tickets?

It wasn't the first thing I talked about, I probably told 75 or a hundred percent of people Because I'm supposed to be this money expert and I didn't do any sort of optimization on the the price of the tickets and Last minute you just said that you're the money person and You're supposed to be able to optimize, but you couldn't optimize. So you feel bad. You think those two are related? Yes. How so? I'm supposed to be good at this. And here was a time that I wasn't good at this. Oh, okay. And can you clarify for me is spending $6,000 for two?

Is that bad at money? I could have been better. I see where you're going with that. And one question you asked to us, what were other people's reactions? And I was around me when we were having these conversations and no one cared about the money, including me. In fact, I was confused why we weren't talking about time with your family and food and sites

and instead talking instantly about an airline ticket. I think that she thinks she gets credibility. She wants to show people that she optimized it as well as she could have and she doesn't feel like it. So she has to make an excuse or give an apology ahead of time, my preemptive apology that no one really asked for perhaps. And the biking trip, what happened with that? We just got really busy. We are really busy, so we put things to the side. When we talked, it really seemed to hit an emotional nerve for you to start spending money.

And that was, I don't remember, a couple of years ago, let's say, what has your journey been in terms of spending money since we last talked? The same. We haven't really spent a lot. We did by another house to turn into a rental, so it's an investment, so is that really spending money. I'm talking about stuff that you enjoy. I don't mind spending money when we have people over. Okay.

We have a backyard with this beautiful deck that we built, and we've got a pool in the backyard, and we have a lot of parties over the summer. I don't bet an eye at that, but I feel weird spending on other things. We did let go with our trip to New York City, and I think that's probably the first time we really let money net dictate what we do. We bought two shows. We stayed near Central Park. We went out to that Italian restaurant I mentioned earlier. What are you talking about? You

didn't let prices dictate. You told me the first thing you did was look at the menu. What car are you talking about? Hold on. I got to just, I got to just like paint the full picture. Okay, you stayed near Central Park. Which hotel did you stay at? Ah, it was, the funny thing was I was just about to tell you that we got it on points that it was free. Okay, and just again, Carl, what would you have gotten out of telling me it's on points? I have no idea. The same thing that I, why I made you told you about the $6,000 airline tickets. Yeah, I don't know why we always say that I guess it's an issue with both of us

But I I hear people do that in my life all the time all that's a cute skirt. Oh, I paid it. It was on sale Well, that's so surprising that the people around you mirror the same values that you yourselves espouse and that you are finding it increasingly hard to change your values while being surrounded by those very people. I definitely lived in a Bible. The thing in the buy community is to be optimizing your money so you can stretch it farther. That alarmed look on your face, Mindy, the accumulation phase, that's a good thing to be not wasteful with your money and why spend actual dollars when you can spend points on a hotel instead. This is one of the biggest critiques I have of the financial independence movement.

If your value is defined by what you don't want to do, which for many people in that community is spend money, then number one, that's not an effective cohesive value system because values are about what you do want to do. Not simply what you don't want to do. And second, what if you actually achieve financial independence? Now, the only way that you can spend money is what Mindy, as it relates to the FI community that you are so deeply embedded in, it has to be an intelligent in. It has to be an intelligent way. It has to be

frugally. Keep going. It can't be wasteful. What if you decide that you and Carl just want to start spending wildly? What would that mean for your membership in the community that you are so deeply embedded in? That's an interesting question. I don't think I would get kicked out. What would your neighbors say?

They would talk with the nosy neighbors. And what would they say? Because they already think you're, like they think you're homeless, right? I heard this. They think that you're, we had a neighbor who thought we were destitute. Yeah, they graduated us. They congratulated us on buying our, buying this house that was kind of a super

dump. Wow. Congratulations. You're so destitute. You were able to scrape together a few nickels to get this fixer up. Or meanwhile, they're sitting over here with millions of dollars. There are two big clues here. The first is that Indian Carl are embedded in a community that highly values frugality and stigmatizes spending. They've been in that kind of community and system for decades. That's why she immediately told 100% of the people she talked to about the price of their trip rather than the memories

as so many of us would normally share. And if you consider that old Jim Rohn quote, you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with, you start to realize how difficult it would be for Mindy and Carl to actually change. The second clue is that their neighbors thought they were quote, destitute. Cheap people often ignore blatant clues, such as their friends calling them cheap or destitute. And they'll say things like, I'm not sure we're cheap. We're selective.

They reframe their cheapness to be a virtue. But just as a quick guideline from me to you, if you ever hear more than one person joking about you being cheap, you're cheap. And there are always many, many more clues as well. A lot of people watch me on Netflix say that you should never pay 1% in fees for a financial advisor. A lot of people were surprised because they think 1% in fees for a financial advisor. A lot of people were surprised because they think 1%'s no big deal,

but I showed you that 1% means over the course of your lifetime, you will pay over 28% of your investment returns in fees. Never do this. Most people can manage their money on their own. If in the rare situation you need an advisor because you have a complex situation or you want someone to give you a second set of eyes, fine, you can hire an advisor just like I've done myself,

but never pay a percentage base fee, pay an hourly fee, even a high hourly fee or a project fee. All right, so a lot of people heard this and they were shocked. A lot of your parents are actually paying a percentage base fee, but a lot of people came to me they were shocked. A lot of your parents are actually paying a percentage-based fee, but a lot of people came to me and said, where do I find an advisor like that? Where do I find them? And so, I'm very excited to introduce today's sponsor, FASIT.

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and will be ordering it again when I run out. I love hearing this feedback. Remember you can try element risk free. This deal is only available through my link at drinkelement.com. That's lmnt.com slash remeath r-a-m-i-t. Again, drinkelement.com slash remeath. The world gave you another clue when you took a trip. And I understand that you Mindy got to the airport with Carl and you discovered how many layovers did this trip have? Two. And did you care? I mean, two layovers. You're probably going what? To India? Where were you going? Morocco?

Denver to Florida. Okay. And how come so many layovers was a weather bad? What was it? No, we were saving money. How much? When $2.00. I think it was $20 each. What is Lisa call you, Carl? El Chico. Mr. Chico. Yeah, my sister's used to call me Mr. Chippo and I was growing up. Yeah, another neighbor thought we were multiple neighbors thought we were destitute because I would change the oil and mold my own lawn while that kind of crap. I don't think that's why they think you're cheap. So you decided to reach out to me. Why?

We have heard you talk and you are very good at teaching people how to go from and how to lead their rich life and changing their mindset and you are a spender. I am? Yes. What does a spender mean? You spend money. You spend. But isn't that bad? Like you spent money on those Germany tickets and that was bad as you put it. So am I a bad person? No. How can I be a spender and not be a bad person? Got very quiet in here.

Because you're spending on things that are important to you and you can afford it. And I'm well aware of what that sounds like as soon as I say it. Thank you very much. Go ahead. What does it sound like? Finish it for us. What sounds like I could spend things, spend on things that are important to me because I can afford it and I don't. Well, I think we've identified that we probably live suboptimally. If something truly makes you happy, you should spend money on it. And that's what you do.

And there's stuff we've postponed or we think about money too much. And at this point, we probably shouldn't. So what's the gap between us? I think it's how we view money. Like for me, money has always been my security blanket. I, even though I don't relate to it while I feel a comfortable deep down inside inside knowing that there's a big pile of

money in our investment accounts. No problem with that. I like my investment account too. Feels great. What words would you use to describe the way that your investment account makes you feel, Carl? Really good. Secure is probably the number one. Secure. What else? Happy?

Liberated. Mindy, how do you feel about your investments? I feel security in the investments, but I don't want to touch them. Because. Yeah, for the future. I mean, not to be too blood, but when's the future? Wow, the silence of mortality. Maybe ten more years. And the older you get the more you think about that very thing, I've heard you say prime spending years are 40 to 60. So yeah, are you two in that range? Yeah, we're dead center in the middle. I'm not convinced that there's actually any reason for

you two to change. I'm trying to figure that out right now. Yeah, I think there is. I think you only have a certain amount of mental bandwidth. You can only do so much of the day. And what do you spend precious minutes of your life, especially if you get older when you're 50? You could be using that time to do other things. So maybe any purchase under a certain amount, you shouldn't even think about or consider, you shouldn't waste any mind space considering it.

Carl, why is all your sentences in the second person? Why are you saying you? Why are you talking like you're telling someone else lesson about money? Okay. Yeah. I'll switch to I. You're right. I don't know why I talk that way. But yeah, I think I should hold on. Think about it for a second. Why did you suddenly switch into this very academic language? Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I'm trying to pin my issues on someone else and not be accountable for it. Mindy, what do you think? I think it's really hard for us to look at ourselves and how we're spending money and acknowledge that

this isn't really what we want to be doing We don't want to just keep throwing money on the pile and keep being Cheap I Mean so far it sounds like a lot of sheds. We should spend money We're 50 you talk about 40 to 60, you know, sheds are not very compelling. I think you're right. How do you go from shed to do? We grew up, there was some money scarcity issues.

My dad was often laid off from work. My mom did not work, so we'd have said conversations around the dinner table occasionally about how we'd have to clamp down. It was rough. I think it's scarby and put these money scarce to the issues. So whenever I got money, I would love to go to the bank and I'm going to date myself you're a meat. But the bank would have these little books they would give you and they would like write down your deposit with this little machine. And I used to love going there to positing my money and and that was it. And it's spending that much. How old were you when you went to the bank and did this? I've gone there to positive in my money and that was it. And it's spending that much.

How old were you when you went to the bank and did this? Oh geez. And the funny thing is I still have my, they would give you this little toy car when you sign up for an account. And it's like 50 feet away from you right over there. Probably started like seven or eight. You mentioned that you used to have sad conversations

about money around the dinner table. What does that mean? Yeah, it would happen. My dad was a electrician and you would get laid off every, when winter and cup of the work would kind of die out and you'd get laid off and it happened multiple years of neuro where we would just sit down, hey, we have to have a family meeting,

your father's been laid off again. We're gonna have to clamp down, not spend money. And it put fear in me like holy crap. Are we going to lose our house like shit? This is bad. Not good. My grandmother would talk about it more than my parents. She was a child of a depression. So she would sneer at me and say, save your money every time I saw her. And if I came over with a toy save your money every time I saw and if I came over with a toy that she thought was a stupid purchase, she would, she would not hold back to tell me that it was a stupid purchase and I should have put that money in the bank. My mom would even tell me not to show my grandmother, I remember one time I bought a yo-yo and it was like 10 bucks, my mom's like, do not take that in her house because

she's going to be angry with you. So she's, I don't know how old she would be, but let's just say pretty old. Her values are still present with you today. Absolutely. Have you passed those values down to your daughters? We try to. They're both very different children. They both know about money. They both can

come down here and tell you what an index fund is. One is more of a saver than the other one. Sorry, just to clarify, the values that your grandmother passed down, which values do you think those are? Don't be silly with money. I think it's a good value. I'm struck that when I said your grandmother passed her values to you, the values that I see are not constructive values. They're actually quite negative. And you took that instead to mean those are positive values and you have passed those along to your daughter. I don't think we're as caustic as she was. We're not mean about it, but we want them to be financially literate at the core. We want them to know how to save. We want them to know how to invest.

And part of it is we want to set them up. But we've talked about perhaps helping them out when they're young adults, maybe buying them even a house, something like that. When they're young and the money will do them a lot of good versus leaving them a big pile when we croak, when the money will be a diminishing return. If your daughters are 50 years old and they have the same behavior and attitudes towards money as you to do. Will you consider that as success or a failure? It's better to be conservative than to be struggling. I know plenty of folks who struggle, but I think they could be a little bit better had just been than we are. So was that a successor failure?

I would say it's a success, but maybe not a perfect success, success with an asterisk. Okay. Mindy, you had a peculiar look on your face when I asked that question. Can you tell me it was going through your head? I know a lot of people who are paycheck to paycheck struggling with money can't buy anything

because they don't have any money or they don't care and they spend money that they don't have to buy stuff either that they need or they don't need just because of external factors. And I would consider it to be a success if they were like us and had the money to spend and weren't spending it as opposed to not having the money to spend and spending it anyway. I would rather they be more conservative. So yes, success was an asterisk. I don't think it's a failure to have a lot of money and be conservative with your spending. And when you talk to your daughters, you ever tell them what to do after they do all those smart, saving and investing things. We talk about having options so that they can...

that they don't have to work their whole lives. It's different than telling them how to spend money meaningfully. Yeah. This is where I took a huge left turn. Listening to Midian Carl, I don't really believe that they want to change. They are leaders in a community that stigmatizes spending. They have decades of this habit under their belt and it's worked well for them. And even when I've talked to Mindy years ago and we got into great detail, remember she was crying at her realization that she wanted to take this trip, she changed nothing.

Even when I ask, would you want your children to turn 50 and be like you? They both say yes. That would be success. They're on this podcast asking for help to change something deeply foundational to them and they don't actually believe it's a problem. So I just got really honest, if you watch their reactions, especially on video, you'll see that they were shocked. I have to tell you that I don't think the two of you actually want to change. And I'll tell you why. You occasionally acknowledge that what you're doing is not serving you,

but you have redefined the way that you treat money to be a virtue. We are conservative with money. You're more than conservative. When I asked about the rare trip that you take with your family, which is a beautiful thing, you jumped right into the cost of the airline tickets. I don't think that you genuinely want to change. How does that strike you? I would disagree, and I think it's a factor of age, and I value my time where there's anything right now for me. You'll tell you another flight story for the longest time.

I would sign up for pre-check and we just did. It's glorious. It's a pre-check cost like $50. I know, right? I think it's $75. Yeah. But totally worth it because I get some of my life back. It's worth 10x what I paid forward because you saved so much time at the airport and frustration. I don't like waiting in lines.

Carl, if you really cared about the time that you could get back, then you would not be spending the next four to 12 weeks doing doors. I mean, he has a strike you when I said, I don't agree, but I don't, I'm going to prove it to you. I'm going to go spend a lot of money. I don't know how to change. I mean, you just spend money. That's how you change. But that's not what I. How to change? I mean, you just spend money. That's how you change, but that's not what I...

It's not even about how, Mindy, because we talked about how last time, and you didn't do it. And again, I don't mind that you didn't take the bike trip. You took another trip, great. But the how is not, you're not even at the how yet. You don't even know why you would want to spend more money. In your minds and the dynamic you've created

between yourselves and with the relationships around you, spending less is a virtue. And spending more is wasteful. So we're not even at the how. So we talked about the bike trip. And I'm not fixating on the bike trip. If you go on the bike trip or not, that's not important. But there was something that we both felt in that moment.

Something very powerful. Here it is years later, and I'm trying to get you to understand why you haven't followed through on that. And your answer to me was we've been busy. I don't believe that. Carl doesn't believe, look at his face. Karl, that's ridiculous, right? You believe that we're busy. Yeah, I believe that we're busy, I think. Mindy, perhaps, has had a hard time of letting go of certain aspects of making money and working. But I have stepped down an enormous amount of hours. So I went from 32 hours to about six or eight hours. Cool. Okay. All right.

So you actually, yeah, sure, you're still working a few hours here and there, but you've eliminated a considerable amount of time. Yes. Okay. How do you feel about that? I feel good, but this was my first week. So that time suck is gone, but then there's still the house time suck. And as we are finishing the house up, then it'll feel great.

What do you mean the house though? I thought houses are all passive. There's no work involved in making money from real estate. Everybody just says it's passive. That's true, right? That's people are wrong. All right. So, okay. First of all, I'm going to give you a round of applause.

You took back some of your time. That's awesome. Fantastic. I wonder if you jumping from one busy thing to the next reminds you of anyone else we've heard on this podcast who jumped from one busy thing and has remained just as busy. Remind you of anybody? It's ringing a bell. Who would that be? Carl.

So what's up with this dynamic here? The two of you both acknowledge your cheap. The two of you talk about money constantly focusing on cost. The two of you then tell each other, we should be better. We should spend something, but then you don't. I have to tell you, I I did do something. I learned that this band I really like one of my top three bands had a Kickstarter where you could have a life performance they would fly out to anywhere in the world and do a life performance for $10,000 and at first I thought this was completely

ridiculous then I tweeted about it and a bunch of friends said, no, I think you absolutely should do this. So I did do it. You did that. You're a trap. Yes. It seems like Carl and Mindy are now trying to prove that they actually want to spend money. I'm not really here for them to impress me. I actually really want to help them.

I like them. They've been highly disciplined about their savings and investments. They've retired early. They set a huge ambitious goal and they won. So I want them to enjoy their results. But to live a rich life, you've got to be honest with yourselves and the people around you. Well, the show is going to happen in August. It has not happened yet, but I don't know. It's been a lot of fun so far, planning this whole thing and inviting friends. It felt tear typing my credit card number. I did my expiration date, the CVC, the little number.

But after I did it, it felt really good. It felt awesome. Look at this smile on your face right now. What? Do you see that you are viewing that purchase through a completely different lens than anything else in your life? What's the difference? How come you were able to feel that amount of emotion

and excitement around that, but not so much around other things? It's a big hurdle for him. He's had a lot of fun landing this event. We had to find a location for it and talk to several different people about alcohol and food and like, are we having a party before he ends? Like, there's a lot of things going on with this and he's had a lot of fun. I hear that. What's interesting is it sounds this and he's had a lot of fun.

I hear that. What's interesting is it sounds like it took up a considerable amount of time, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you didn't consider that being really busy. Fair? No, not busy at all, because it's super fun. What if you could do more things like that? Yeah, I super look forward to it as soon as I'm done hanging those doors, which many gets to help me with her new phone time, which is fine if you like the house. If that's what you love, if it is your business or provides you joy, great. Carl, does it? Not so much anymore. We used to, and this will be our last remodel.

It was our path to wealth. We would fix and fill up houses, do the two out of five-year rule, not pay capital gains, reinvest the money, and stocks or another house. But it's run its course at this time. We're going to finish it up like many, he said, and no more. Once this house is finished, there are no more projects and we've said this to several friends and they're like, you're going to find something else. No, this is it.

This is the last one. We don't enjoy it anymore. I don't enjoy it anymore. He says he enjoys it. And like, he really does enjoy tile. He's very good at it. It's like, I think it's something that he really does enjoy doing the solitude and he's got headphones and he's listened to podcasts and having a great time. But I don't think that there's a lot of the other parts that he enjoys hanging drywall socks and installing door socks,

um, living in chaos socks, and they're still five weeks left. When was the last time that I hung a door? Any idea? Probably never. Correct. So, I mean, you have the skill to hang a door and undo whatever those packages are and stuff. Okay, you have skills I agree. Is there a future where maybe you don't hang doors? Yeah, I hope that future starts

in about four weeks from right now. So when the project completes. Yes. And then everything will magically change. I don't think it will. It's a change. But Carl, you already, you already did this. Like, do you see what I'm trying to show you? You already did this. You hit your FI number and nothing changed the next day. You could be right. Maybe all this is gonna be completely wrapped up in exactly four weeks and everything will change magically after that. Another way to look at it is the way you live today

is the way you are going to live for the rest of your lives. No. No. Oh, that's the first time I've actually heard the two of you say something in a resolute way. That is the way that we have lived for the last like 15 or 20 years and it is not we used to like it and we don't like it anymore. You know, I have a question. If this were all going to be resolved in two or three weeks, why didn't we just talk in two or three weeks? Well, because you know what I suspect is that things are actually not going to change that

much in three weeks. It's really hard to change. You know that. I know that. It's really hard to change. You know that. I know that. It's really hard. So, aren't you doing yourselves a bit of a disservice by just like kicking everything off till this date, three weeks in the future and not really looking inside? Yeah, I don't know. It feels weird because we took on all these projects. Now we know we don't want to do them anymore. But we kind of, we have to bring them to resolution. We have to finish them up. And I think we really will have,

Rabid I got to tell you, we've been doing this our whole entire lives. We've lived in a house that's not a construction zone. I'm holding up my dining room and my nail gun is right next to me, which is, uh, yeah. But I don't think we want to do this anymore. And like you said, change is hard, but I think we'll actually have the time and mental bandwidth and hopefully be able to like, we just haven't ever slowed down in the past

as long as we've been married, we've never slowed down. And this will be it. You know, I once saw a video clip that I'll never forget. It was a self-development seminar and a woman stood up and asked a question with way too many details. And the person on stage, she responded by saying this. She said, I think you talk a lot so you can escape yourself. I still remember the deafening silence in the room. And I remember my own heart speeding up as I wondered,

do I do that too? This is what Mindy and Carl are doing. And what so many of us do, we frantically respond to emails, we make the kids lunches, we schedule weekend activities and optimize our savings, and we read fireblocks.

Also, we can escape the deeper meanings of a rich life. Am I spending my time and money on the things that matter? Do I have strong relationships? How would I know if those things are true? Let's look. If you claim you have strong relationships, look at your phone, look at your text messages and calendar from the last week. Show me proof that you have strong relationships. Do I work on my health? Where does that show up in your calendar and your spending? Am I generous? Where does that show up in your conscious spending plan? Do I even know what my rich life is? show up in your conscious spending plan. Do I even know what my rich life is? You know, in America, we are experts at doing more work, more work, chasing a goal that we tell ourselves, our boss created, or our partner, or even society. But when you meet a couple like

Midian Carl, who are independently wealthy as a result of their discipline. They even retired early and even they can't stop doing things they dislike. You start to realize this may be a crystal ball into your future unless you make a change. What are you going to do all the time? Learned Spanish, play the piano, play the guitar, work on another website. I've been thinking about for the past five years, exercise, exercise, go on long bike rides. That sounds, that actually sounds really good. Are you guys kidding or is this for real?

No, this is for real. We've got a big list of things that we want to do. We have two kids, they're 13 16. And so we're a little location dependent right now, while they're in school, but they're in school from like eight to four. So or eight to three. So we can spend that time doing other things. Got it. Okay. Cool. You have a list. That's cool. What else is on that list? One thing I'll say is it was difficult to do the trip to Germany just because it was expensive. And our younger daughter is a homebody

She did not want to go. She's like I just want to stay here. Can you leave me with a relative or our friends? She's 13 right? Yeah, she's 13. 13 year-old just they don't want to do anything. Yeah, but the amazing thing was she got back and the first thing she said was dad I can't wait to go back there and I'm'm going to start doing German on Duolingo. I know, right? Wait, that's amazing. Okay, amazing. What's your take away from that? My takeaway was holy shit. How can we give you more of these experiences that that you really enjoyed? The memory dividend, she's going to take that with her

forever and might change her life. Maybe she'll take up German and in university or maybe she'll go to Germany to study who knows and it was something she was dead resistant against doing it. Now she's in love with the place. So you may have changed the trajectory of your daughter's life with this one trip. What are the implications of that as it relates to money? My implications are, what else can we spend money on? What else can we show her that's going to change her world? Maybe make her come out of her show, make her more enthusiastic for these experiences, which might seem a little bit scary,

but in the end, she loves. Okay, when was this trip to Germany? How many months ago? 10. 10 months ago, almost a year ago. What money have you spent on for that daughter to create experiences for her? We have Hawaii planned.

She was last in Hawaii when she was two or three, so she doesn't remember. She's really excited about that. We're staying at very nice resorts. We are planning a helicopter trip. We're snorkeling, what are we snorkeling with, man to raise? Things that we would not have done in the past because they would be too expensive. And I don't even know how much that helicopter trip costs. We haven't discussed how much it cost. We just asked the girls if that was something

that they would be interested in doing, because the little one may have some issues with, like, getting into a helicopter, and they were both very excited about it, the same with the Manta rays. And they were so excited, we just booked the trip. We didn't. Wow. Look at the cost. I heard you on Chris Hitchens show talking about you went to Japan and you got a photographer while you were there and they took pictures. And I said, oh, we should do that

while we're in Hawaii. So we're going to fight a photographer to take some family photos on the beach. Love that. And it's going to be a cost because we, you know, it's somebody's time, but I'm not concerned about that cost. Can we try to reframe that? So I loved everything you just told me. Everything. It sounds beautiful. It sounds like a memory of a lifetime. Take me to the end of that sentence where you said,

we're gonna get a photographer, and then you lapsed into cost. Well, I don't know what it's gonna cost. I have a look to it in the... I didn't know. I don't care what it costs. And I don't either. I mean, I don't want to spend $10,000 on it,

but I want to find somebody to take nice pictures. I don't know how much it costs. When I talked about it on a crisis podcast, did you hear me talk about the cost of it? No. No. What did I talk about? You talked about how you would have these memories for the rest of your life because you had somebody else take these pictures. And in fact, the more money I accumulate, the more meaning I get to create in more adventurous ways, in bigger results ways, in more convenient and safe ways, then to have to only look at

the world through cost. So when you tell me that I took a trip to Germany, I'm more interested in how your daughters thought the food was and what you saw there in terms of history. That gets me pumped! That is creating memories and your youngest wants to learn German. Oh my God, I love that. The price of an airline ticket for the two of you couldn't care less. Mindy, you look startled.

Carles smiling too. Mindy, what's going through your head? I'm thinking of new ways to look at things. I do look at everything based on how much it costs and I don't need to. I shouldn't. Now this is good. No matter how much someone struggles to change their money attitudes and behaviors, there is always a glimmer of hope. And I see that glimmer shining brightly when they talk about their daughter's reaction to visiting Germany.

I saw it with their upcoming trip to Hawaii. I even saw it with Carl's birthday party concert. To me, these are really promising clues. And they tell me that there's a yearning here to change and even some proven behaviors that they've done, but it's gonna take a lot of work. When I was young, as you know, I grew up, frugal family, dad work, mama's home with the kids. We had a pretty big family.

Not a lot of money. Middle class, hardly ever ate out, hardly ever took vacations. We did not waste money. Sometimes you have to do that. There's just no extra money to you can't actually afford to waste money. Now, I'm CEO, I've run my business, I have all these people around me. Sometimes money gets wasted. Now, I'm not saying I love it, but maybe I order something and it doesn't get returned in time. But maybe I order something and it doesn't get returned in time. The more money you have, the more money you will naturally waste, and that is okay. Because any system of any complexity has waste in it. Carl, you're building this house, along with Mindy.

Have you wasted any of your supplies? Yes. Of course. That's waste. Normal. Any system has waste. If it has no waste, it's probably not doing anything productive. But with money, Mindy, you have this view about waste as if it's the worst thing in the world. Why? I am a grandchild of the depression and you did not waste anything back then because you didn't have anything. So anything that you had, you had to keep, you had to save and... But Mindy, yet you still live and breathe that same value today. Yeah.

So I grew up the same way, not a descendant of grandparents or others who were in the Great Depression, but I grew up with a frugal family by nature and partially by culture. And we found lots of inexpensive ways to have fun and we had a great time. inexpensive ways to have fun and we had a great time. But what do you think changed for me to be able to spend extravagantly on the things I love? What changed? It wasn't just making more money, because you've made more money and you haven't changed. I don't know what changed for you. You want to ask some questions? Let's flip this podcast. This is your podcast now. Go ahead. Remiith, when did you first find yourself starting

to spend more money and being okay with spending that money? Right after I graduated from college, I remember asking a friend to help me dress better. And she took me to the Palo Alto Mall. And we went into the store, I think it was a May Cs or something. And the way I had always shopped was, if you see something you like, you look at the price tag. And then, you know, if it's reasonable, you take it in the dressing room.

So I started doing that and she stopped me. She goes, don't do that. I said, what? She said, first, see if you love it, then we can talk about the price. That blew my mind. That was the first thing I remember. What did it feel like for you when your friend told you not to look at the price tag and then you go into the dressing room? Did you look at it then? No. And then you go into the dressing room. Did you look at it then? No, I trusted her. I had asked her because she had really good style.

I had asked her to come help me. I wanted to learn how to dress better. And I trusted her so I walked out and she had these extremely memorable reactions. When I would wear something, she would get excited. She was like, this looks amazing. So when it came time to pay, they told you that the total,

yeah, you bring your pile of clothes to the register. How did that feel? Well, I had the money. So the first thing is I was not worried about the money. I had the money. I knew my numbers. But the way that I felt was focused on how I was going to look and the numbers were a mere triviality. They were, yeah, they

were more than I would have ever paid before. But I was more focused on my friend getting me excited about how I was going to look and how to style these new clothes. Okay. All right, what are you taking away from this, Mindy? I don't know how you go from a frugal family to not looking at price tags at clothes. I mean, Macy's can have some $40 sweaters or they can have some $5,000 sweaters. How do you even get that? They don't have $5,000 at Macy's, have some $40 sweaters or they can have some $5,000 sweaters. How do you even get that?

How do you even get that? I don't have $5,000 sweaters at Macy's. I know that. Mindy. If you're gonna try to throw around prices of stuff, the one thing you do not wanna throw around with this guy is the price of sweaters. Your point is Macy's can have expensive sweaters.

Yes, but the principle is still the same. What was the principle you heard me say? You trusted your friend and you focused on the results, not the cost. I focused on a bigger picture than cost. What would be the equivalent for your Hawaii trip? I think we're doing most of it. I do too. What is the big picture, the thing that you're actually getting excited about? Spending time with the girls and having a great trip, doing things that they want to do.

Yes. How come you're not agonizing over the price of everything? Just for trying something new. Yes. Do you see the direct analogy? Yes. Do you see the direct analogy? Yeah. Why is it uncomfortable for you? Because this is new.

The difference is I had a reason, a very compelling reason when I was in my early 20s. A young 20 something guy wants to look good. I was single, I have asked many times and I'm still looking for a compelling reason from the two of you to change. I'm still looking, I will ask again and again why now?

And the answers are, we should spend more, we have enough in the bank. Not compelling. Not enough of a reason to actually change. You have both embedded yourself in systems and structures that makes it extremely difficult for you to actually build the skill of spending money. Well, I'll ask Mindy, like I think our lives will change very shortly when all this stuff is done. I think, but it's probably a recent realization, I think, the New York trip where we did allow ourselves to spend money on two shows and Nice experiences there. I think that was an eye opener. I don't regret a thing about spending that money And now more than anything in life. I just want my time That seems strange though if they have that kind of money. I mean, I've only seen like the cartoon

Rich people who are like I got to do all this stuff so fast. And I've got time it's money and let's get going. And time we're always so busy. We don't have time to do anything. And people who have that kind of money aren't rushed. That seems like we are at a point where, you know, the older one is going to be going out to college soon. I want to make a lot of memories with the four of us while they're still the four of us. We committed, Remy, we committed to these projects years ago where my mindset was a little bit different

and I think was shittier, but now I just want to get past them and move on. Well, I had some notes up here and my top thing was I don't want to be wasteful. So I'm crossing that off. I like it. Can I make a suggestion? Maybe going forward, you don't use the word optimize anymore at all. How do you feel about that? I feel good. I'll have to get the word optimize removed.

The tattoo removed from my ass. But I like the reframing. Cool. Use that between the two of you. So you know, you both have a lot of fun with each other. I can tell just the way you talk. If that optimize comes up, you can, what did you say? You know, you can have fun with it, but it's also a half joke because you actually don't have to live a life of optimization for everything. People who have the wealth you do, it's a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to. You can live a life of comfort, safety, or pure delight.

Carls writing something down. Carl, what are you writing down? It's a tragedy to love a smaller life than you have to. Okay, I appreciate that. So first thing you wrote down today, what struck you about that phrase? Geez, I don't wanna be 80 and regret not buying the photographer or doing other shit

that we could have done on the vacation that we could have been doing. I mean, the thing that, one of the things that really stuck out to me was our younger daughter telling us how much she liked the trip and the experience. And I want to give her more experiences like that. I want to come back from Hawaii and for her to tell us that was the best two weeks of her life. Now, that is a powerful vision.

Mindy, how much did you say you're going to have by the time you're like 70 or 80 or that was the best two weeks of her life. Now that is a powerful vision. Mindy, how much did you say you're gonna have by the time you're like 70 or 80 or something, that big number that you said in your pre-interview? Oh, it's gonna be, well, if we, God, I wrote those down and then I don't have that off the top of my head, but the rule of 72 says that it's gonna double

every like eight years. So I'm 50 now at 4.3 million at age 58. I'll have 8.6 at age 58.64. I will have like 16 million and then at 74, 72, I'll have like 32 million Okay, something like that $32 million age 74. Yeah, what does it mean to you? That's unfathomable. Mm-hmm. I don't really identify with that So if you continue the way you are what are you gonna do with that much money by then? pay a lot in Required minimum distributions and then what are you gonna do with that much money by then. Pay a lot in required minimum distributions. And then what are you gonna do with that money?

Yeah, I wanna buy my kids a house before I have to pay for all of that. Okay, a house costs a million bucks, maybe even too great. What else? That's your interest for about nine months. Yeah, I don't know how to handle that kind of money. If you can't learn to spend a little bit of money right now, this is just income, by the way,

then how can you learn to spend millions and millions and millions of dollars? Maybe he's taking deep breaths right now. Yeah, because I don't know how I would ever spend $16 million. Yeah, I think it would be a failure if we ever got to that. I think there would be an indication that we didn't spend enough when we were younger because who knows what kind of shape we'll be in when we're that old as well. So I don't want to get to a point where we where we have that much in even if that means giving it away. Yeah. And seeing our money doing good. I don't want to leave a bunch point where we where we have that much. And even if that means giving it away. Yeah. And seeing our money doing good, I don't want to leave a bunch of money when I die. I want to blow it

off before I croak. And hopefully, here's the word, the over to get optimally blow it. So either give it away or spend it on stuff. I don't want to have that kind of wealth one for that. I don't want to go on that bike right. that kind of wealth one for that old. So I want to go on that bike right. And now for their follow ups, which I asked them to record on video. So make sure you come to YouTube and subscribe so you can see their reactions.

It's actually quite telling and you'll be able to see future video follow ups from our guests. Don't forget, you can sign up to get my podcast newsletter every single week where I share material. You will never see publicly. It's at iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. This week, I'm talking about the dynamics of cheap people.

First up, Mindy's video update. What really surprised me is that you didn't think that we really want to change. I do want to change, but change is hard. I'm old, I'm set in my ways, and this is kind of a big part of my whole life. And it is tough to change. And I really thought that you were just going to make waves of magical wand and everything was going to be easy and Apparently I have to do work so I'm I'm thankful for the conversation you really made me think I did not sleep all the night or two nights ago

So things for that, but I have a lot to think about I would I sit through this if I didn't want to change for a meat. What did I take away from this conversation? I don't think Carl and I are really on the same page about money sometimes. And I really thought we were. I thought we were both on the same page all the time. And I want to pay somebody to come in and finish this stupid house so we can be done and he wants to DIY everything. And I get both sides of the

L.A.G. I get his point because it's finding good help is really, really hard. But we're both frustrated with the house and the way it's going. So we did end up hiring her friend, Eric. And he came in and hung all the doors today. And they look great. And that's a huge weight off of our shoulders and the amount of mental bandwidth that that freed up is. You can't put a price up. Even though it only cost.

Well, I'm not even gonna tell you how much it costs because I don't do that anymore. I do have a comment from my daughter. She said I Said we were you know, you know how we were talking to the sky last night and you know We're always concerned about the cost of things. She said since when are you concerned about the cost? You're rich and I asked her she thought we weren't concerned about the cost of things and she replied I think you obsess about the price of everything and it's annoying. Anyway, the idea that this could all be done, Sue, is delightful. And now, Carl's video update.

Hi, Remy. This is my friend Eric, one of the suggestions you had was to hire some of her stuff up. So we get through this and move on to our next life. And when we were on the call the other night, I texted Eric and he had actually responded and we coupled in and said, you could help out today. So that's Wednesday.

And we are in Stolen Dores now. We're not only influenced and reinforced by our community, but we're reinforced by each other. I think Mindy and I are on the same page, and I think it's great to be on the same page with your partner, but maybe we're not exactly on the right page. So that's what surprised me. I think Mindy and I have lived in maybe a tunnel vision situation for a long time where we're pretty much exactly on the same page and haven't considered other views or what else we could be doing with our

money to live a better life. One of the big takeaways was I was thinking about our recent trips to New York and Germany with our daughters and what a great time they had. I think that's probably some of the best times we've had as a family. And after we got off our call with you, I thought, why aren't we doing more of this? So I've done a couple things. I've taken three different actions since we talked. This one was inspired by you and the photographer's story. We have a good friend who lives on Maui and we offer to fly him and his partner over to Kui for a day to hang out with us and to also take pictures

of ourselves and to take pictures of our family. Number two, yesterday Mindy and I asked each girl, each of our daughters to make a list of the top 10 places they would like to see in the world. We are going to see what they come up with and see what overlap there is on their list and then pick a place and go there for at least a week on December break. And here's a really big one. I think you're going to like this one a lot. My mom is still around. I also have two sisters who both have partners and all of them are doing all right, but not nearly as well off as Mindy and I. So yesterday I sent everyone a text offering to take the entire family on a cruise to Alaska. So this is my mom, my sisters and their partners. I would pay for a cruise to go to Alaska in 2024. My mom has always dropped to this, but has never been able to pull the trigger on it for herself.

So I look forward to being able to take all nine of us on this pretty cool trip. So thank you for the inspiration. Well I want to thank Mindy and Carl for coming on this show. It took a lot of courage, particularly because of their place in the fire community, to come here publicly and ask for help. So Mindy and Carl, thank you very much. I'd love for you to keep updating me with how you are developing your rich life. If you enjoyed this, let's do a couple of things. Number one, please leave a written review on Apple Podcasts. It helps a lot. Number two, please subscribe to my YouTube channel.

And number three, go to iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. This week, I'm sending something you've never seen my seven-part scorecard on how to tell if you are cheating. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You to Be Rich, I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Remedies safety. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read, I will teach you to

be rich by book, pick up a copy, you can get it at any bookstore or any library, and I will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.