I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 110. “My boyfriend doesn’t care about money. Will I ever feel secure?”
Episode Date: June 27, 2023Jake and Hannah bring a younger perspective to the podcast today. 26 and 31 respectively, they find themselves in different seasons of life—especially when it comes to money. Hannah is about to have... her own practice as a therapist while Jake is a ski instructor. Can they connect? This episode is brought to you by: Calm | Go to https://calm.com/ramit for 40% off unlimited access to Calm’s entire library. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off. Ness Well | IWT listeners can get an extra 5K welcome bonus when they apply for the Ness Card at https://nesswell.com/ramit. Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions – and manage your expenses the easy way – by going to https://rocketmoney.com/ramit. Links mentioned in this episode • Join Earnable Connect with Ramit • Get the Podcast Newsletter and exclusive Q&A about the show • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube • Submit a question for the newsletter iwt.com/askramit If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.
Transcript
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Have you ever wondered how to have healthier conversations with your partner about money so that you don't
fight or you don't just simply both wander off into different rooms after you bring up money.
Sometimes we have these stories we tell ourselves, I'm a spender, they're a saver. But what if you
knew exactly what to say to have a healthier conversation about money? Well, that's what I want to
do this week, this Saturday on my podcast newsletter.
So I'm going to share seven questions that you can ask each other so that you can have
better conversations with your partner. Now, whether you are in a relationship or you
are solo and you want to build these skills right now, the only place to get these questions
is on my podcast newsletter. It's not going to be shared anywhere else. Go to IWT.com
slash podcast newsletter to learn how to going to be shared anywhere else. Go to IWT.com slash podcast
newsletter to learn how to have healthier conversations about money. This newsletter
goes out this Saturday, July 1st.
I feel guilty because I feel like your dad has talked to me more about money and you growing
up than maybe you. I don't want to have to think about money so you growing up then maybe you.
I don't wanna have to think about money so much,
especially in conversation with you.
I want it to be more of a partnership.
I don't really care about numbers growing on a computer.
You know, I do kind of think about what retirement
would be like and stuff, but like it's not my goal.
Like, you're not really motivated by money.
Would that be fair?
Yes. I chose a career that doesn't make really motivated by money. Would that be fair? Yes.
I trust a career that doesn't make a lot of money.
I work as a backcountry ski guide.
Cool.
And then in summer, what do you do?
I work as a beer delivery driver.
OK.
I don't think my relationship with money right now,
that I can ever feel fully safe.
Yeah, I definitely want that to change.
I think we want the same thing.
I just don't know how to get there.
It sucks.
Hannah's 31 and Jake is 26 and they see money differently. Hannah wants safety. She wants security.
She wants to stop worrying about money. He does not care about it.
If you and your partner see money differently,
I think this is gonna be a fascinating episode for you.
And there's one thing I wanna highlight
before we get into today's episode.
Listen to Hannah and Jake talk about minor decisions.
Even with something as small as choosing
which grocery store to go to, they spin in circles, totally
indecisive. And this is a really common pattern that I've seen among couples that isn't
talked about a lot. And it turns out that their indecision ends up playing a central role
in their money relationship. All right, let's get into it. We were talking about rent and
him discovering how much I'm going to be making in the next
five months and me taking on more rent.
I think he was unsure and unwilling to let me pay more.
The conversation and go beyond me just saying, yes, this is what we're going to do.
I think I said, wow, you're going to make, what was it? $10,000 a month?
I was like, that's a lot of money. I don't make any weird dear to that, and I don't know when I will.
Go ahead and have the conversation, Hannah. Just talk to him like you said it to him the other day.
I've been telling you this for a long time,
the whole, the whole last year,
and me through grad school,
that that's probably what I'm gonna be making.
And I'm probably going to be paying for more
in the long run, just because I am making more money than you.
Just wanna cut in here.
Did you notice how Hannah began that conversation?
Let me play it back.
I've been telling you this for a long time,
the whole last year and me through grad school,
that's probably what I'm going to be making.
All right, you'll probably notice that I never,
ever start a conversation that way on this podcast.
And you may also notice that it wasn't really a conversation.
It was Hannah telling Jake something and then it just landing with a thud.
He had to figure out how to respond.
If you have been having conversations with your partner about money, that seemed to go
nowhere or it feels like you're just spinning your wheels.
Sometimes it helps to break your conversations down to their atomic levels.
Here's a weird idea.
Ask your partner if they're cool with recording the conversation the next time you talk about
money and then get a transcript.
Look at how you talk to each other.
I guarantee that your minds will be blown. Okay, back to the conversation. Notice how Jake responds to Hannah's declaration.
Yeah, that sounds fair to me, but just a disproportion and rent and other bills sort of makes me
uneasy.
Yeah, I don't know if we need to do that.
Like, it sounds like it's more work, honestly.
I wanted to be as easy as possible.
I mean, that's definitely my goal.
I want the paying the bills and splitting stuff to be as easy.
I just think this is the easiest way.
What is this? This means what?
So, like, we, basically, all of our bills and for all of our grocery shopping and stuff
We just split it. I guess like manually. So like one of us will pay the bill like you know the Wi-Fi bill came
I
It gets taken out of my account automatically. I've been mail handed for half of it
When we go to the grocery store, I'll split up the receipt and Venmo request for that part of it.
Okay.
That seems easier to me than other methods, yeah.
Okay, well, I don't wanna keep Venmoing
and I don't wanna have to think about money so much,
especially in conversation with you.
I want it to be more of a partnership.
What do you think the problem is?
Is this a problem of Venmo and Tools?
Because I'm still trying to understand what are the stakes here.
Jake, if I had to ask you in a sentence or two, what's going on with money in your relationship?
What would you say to me?
I think,
Hanna wants more money than I think that I need. And I guess I don't have the aspirations
to make that much money.
More than I make now, but not that much.
I see.
That's honest.
Hanna, would you agree with that?
Is that the primary thing? What's going on?
Yeah, that's the primary thing. I don't think you even want to make more than you're making now.
This is a day-to-day conversation, I guess, that's something we talk about sort of frequently.
Is that related to Hannah's desire to make more money and your lack of desire, too?
But Hannah's desire to make more money and your lack of desire too? Yeah, because if we do start having joint accounts and putting in income proportionally,
the further a part of our income gets, the stranger that gets.
If I'm putting in such a smaller proportion than she is into account. And we're kind of spending money on somewhat separate things.
It just doesn't seem fair to me.
That doesn't seem fair to Hannah.
Why?
Because she's paying more for stuff.
And so your conclusion is to what?
Keep things separate and split things 50-50?
Yeah.
Okay.
Does that work?
I think so.
Okay.
I don't think Canada does.
So you go to grocery store and let's say, I don't know,
it costs 100 bucks.
You both split it 50-50.
Is that how you do it?
No, so we'll go through the receipt and
I'll add up the items individually. So like let's say she paid for it all add up the things that I spent money on and
the things that were shit
And then I'll pay her that because we kind of different things and stuff
You like doing this?
I don't like it, but it doesn't take that much time.
I mean, really, that's less than five minutes
every time we go to the grocery store.
Okay.
That's not ideal, but I think it's easier
than other things.
Other things would be what?
other things would be what?
Contributing to a contributing to a checking account and then proportionally adding money in and then proportionally spending the money.
That seems more of a headache.
And right now on a scale of one to ten, how would you describe the way that you've got your money set up?
One is ten.
Ten is hard. Where would you describe the way that you've got your money set up? 1 is 10 is hard.
Where would you say it is?
3.
3, really easy.
Okay.
I think it's pretty easy.
What does easy mean to you?
Automatic doesn't take a lot of stress or time.
What?
What is this idea that it doesn't take a long time?
Yes, it does. It costs a lot. Not only does it cost you your own time focusing on three dollar questions to sit there and decide who bought the head of lettuce
It costs you because you're not bonding with your partner over money. In fact, it feels horrible every single month
This is an example of focusing on three3 questions and Jake wants to do this
going line by line on every receipt for the rest of their lives. That's not the
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Again, that's join deleteme slash remete R-A-M-I-T. What would be an ideal scenario for you?
Him being comfortable with me making more money, but also having self-efficacy to do
his best to do more than just make the bare minimum to pay his bills if you do a single.
Okay.
I feel like I've never admitted that.
What is it that you want from Jake?
Feel free to be as honest as you want and feel free to take as much time as you need.
Jake is listening.
I wish that I could trust you to provide for me in some way if my business felt the
room.
Okay.
I would like that too.
Go ahead, keep talking about it.
I think we're really onto something here.
I think right now you couldn't like being a seasonal worker you don't necessarily have
your own room throughout the year that's just yours or you don't know where your next
paycheck's coming from from like April to to the summer. So I hear that. Jake, do you care about making more money? Not really. You know, not that much like,
to live my rich life would require a little bit more money, but not that much more money.
I don't really care about numbers growing on a computer. I do kind of think about what retirement
would be like and stuff. But like,
I, you know, it's not my goal. Like, I chose a career that doesn't make a lot of money. Yeah.
I'm, you know, because I care more about what you do for living. I work as a backcountry ski guide.
Cool. In the summer. Okay. Cool. In the winter. In the winter. And then in summer, what do you do?
I work as a beer delivery driver.
Okay. But I'm kind of getting into the climbing guiding too.
Rock climbing guiding.
What is your rich life if you could define it for us?
I want to live in the mountains where I can have access to them every day.
The part that I don't have now is I would like to be able to take trips on not extravagant trips, but trips with flexibility.
I want to be able to with short notice, like I want to go here
with hand or with a friend.
That's the one thing I'd like to add to my life.
You're not really motivated by money.
Would that be fair?
Yes, that is fair.
OK, I think I can get experiences without just money. Got that be fair? Yes, that is fair. Okay. I think I can get experiences without
just money, you know. Got it. Yeah. Cool. I like that. And Hannah. Being able to retire in my 60s and
maybe having like a secure, a secure base that would be maybe like a piece of land or a house
somewhere. How long have you two been together?
Three years.
Are you into the mountains as much as Jake?
I think I am.
I like living in the mountains,
but I definitely don't wanna be backcountry skiing every day.
Okay, got it.
So you're 31, and what do you do for a living?
I am a clinical or I'm a mental health therapist.
I felt guilty that I'm probably going
to be making a lot more than him.
Why do I feel guilty?
I don't know, just like a lot more,
I feel guilty that I'm being so much more than him
and he contributes 50% of everything.
Ah! Who decided that?
He did.
So weird. It's always the case. The lower earner insists on doing 50-50 almost always even
to their own detriment. It's gotta be stressful, Jake.
I don't know, I mean, I can sort of making it work.
It seems fair.
We've used the same amount of power.
We used the same amount of Wi-Fi
and we both use the power equally,
the apartment equally like, why should I just pay less
because I happen to make less?
Well, you pay less taxes than I pay.
True.
Yeah.
And to tell you the truth, I can afford it.
In fact, I should guy like me should pay more and be able to provide for the
roads and the emergency services and all the beautiful trees and all that stuff,
right? In your relationship, she makes more, sure,
she consumes 50, 50 of the Wi-Fi,
but she also has the capability to pay more.
And in a relationship, to me, it makes a lot of sense.
What do you think about that?
Yeah, that makes sense.
That felt a little too easy.
I'm not sure I just changed Jake's entire perspective about proportional payments in 30
seconds.
But I do want to point out that sometimes a single good example can change everything.
And sometimes having a third party make that example can be really powerful.
Here's what I've noticed so far.
Hannah cares about money because she wants security.
She's expecting to make a lot more soon, and she feels guilty about it.
She's concerned about Jake's relationship with money, but she's rarely direct with him.
Jake doesn't care about money in the same way as Hannah.
He acknowledges that he chose a low paying career. And interestingly,
he insists on paying 50-50, likely as a way to contribute because the lower earner in
relationships is almost always preoccupied with the seaworth contribution. But of course,
contributing 50-50 to the price of peanut butter isn't really what their disagreement
is about. If you struggle to connect with your partner on money, make sure that you are signed up
for my Saturday newsletter.
This Saturday, I'm going to be sharing seven money questions that you and your partner
can ask each other to help make sure you're having healthy money conversations and to start
actually feeling like you have a true partnership around money.
Sign up at iwt.com slash podcast newsletter and that newsletter is free.
Now I asked Jake about something he said in his screening interview because I want to
understand how he views money.
Jake, what's this thing about you not liking rich people?
Is that true?
Yeah.
I don't like a lot of them either.
And I'm rich.
All right, tell me.
You seem chill for a rich guy, but I don't know.
I think often people lose their important values for money or with money.
And then I also don't like the idea of how, you know, 1% of the world owns everything
and there's so many people suffering because of it.
Not that I'm suffering, but I agree with you, man.
I'm totally with you.
100%.
It's unfathomable.
The disparity in wealth.
Okay, I got a question for you.
So you have this feeling about rich people.
I'm not offended.
I love the honesty.
Where do you meet these rich people?
Is this when you're doing the skiing skigiding? I have had some clients that are absolutely filthy rich. I see people have
values that I don't think are lack of values, I guess. What would be an example of the
values you don't agree with? I see a correlation with how wealthier people are doing these activities more to go home and tell co-workers
or to post it on Instagram or to check a box.
It's just like suffering through the day and having no fun and not talking to, you know, his group members and me
and not getting the most out of the experience right just there
To take the picture and go home. God and it's not fun for anybody
Okay, you know, and I see that less wealthy people are really just there for the experience
Which I think is the way it should be and do you find that this is true of all the wealthy people that you work with?
No, I wouldn't say it all.
How do you think that this feeling you have about wealth and wealthy people, etc., how
do you think it affects your relationship with Hannah and money?
I think Hannah wants to be, one of us both wants to be wealthy together.
Okay.
And what do you feel about that? I don't necessarily want
exorbitant well. And I think that is maybe our biggest issue. And maybe why we're here.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
If you hate money or you think that rich people are vapid or evil, it's very
unlikely that you will live a rich life yourself.
That's because the very process of earning money,
saving and investing, designing a rich life
will not get you where you want.
That destination of rich will be antithetical
to the identity you've created for yourself.
This is why I talk openly about my rich life.
And yours, I want you to see
that a rich life doesn't have to mean simply posting about your glamorous ski trip on Instagram,
although honestly I don't see a problem with that. Your rich life is yours.
Next, I wanted to hear from Hannah specifically about how she was raised. In this episode,
you're hearing how Hannah is often stressed about money.
And one of the key clues here is that in her conscious spending plan, her fixed costs are
just too high.
They're 83%.
Now I often see this with people who are stressed out about money.
And if you are in the same boat, here's a question to ask, what am I paying for each month
that I don't even really care about?
For a lot of people, it's monthly subscriptions.
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One of my goals with this podcast is to demystify money and to show you that it's okay to spend
money on the things that are meaningful to you.
It could be beautiful clothes, travel, could be massages, or health and wellness.
Whatever it is for you, I want you to do it knowing your numbers and being unapologetic
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N-E-S-S-W-E-L-L.com slash remete. terms apply. Um, I'm already getting teary.
I was raised by a single mom.
And so I was always the one that was, um, I guess probably more mature about money and finances
than my mom.
She wasn't good with money.
No, she was't good with money?
No, she was not good with money.
Yeah, probably like eight or nine times when my parents got divorced,
so probably just right around there.
Some of my earlier memories are talking about money with her.
We were completely dependent on my grandfather.
He paid for everything in my life,
or it was like talking about child support,
and we don't have enough money,
or there's $5 in the bank account right now
after I paid rent that kind of thing.
So it was like me trying to just be smaller
so that she wouldn't be stressed about money.
And I see that happening with us where it's like
I would I just won't talk about it because I don't want to make him stressed about money
And what about now looking back on that that eight nine ten-year-old what do you think?
I
I
Wish I could tell her that you don't have to be so hyper-vitalant.
But it's just hard to, I would have to explain, like, listening to your mom, I'm called
credit card companies is not something that other kids have to deal with.
Or, yeah, I wish I could tell her that it wasn't normal when I was going through.
I'm sorry you had to go through that at such a young age too. Thank you.
You still have that relationship with your mom?
We don't have a relationship
because it just got to the point where I just couldn't
handle her mismanagement of things.
So you mentioned that you were eight, nine, you were starting to take over some of the family
responsibility with money. You were starting to also shrink yourself. Is that right?
Yeah. Okay. What happened between 10 and 18?
Things just got worse. She didn't, she didn't really work that much. She would get like a big check for Christmas
From a family member and we just do our best to live off that for the rest of the year. Did you grow up thinking it was normal to get one check and then make it last for a year?
I I grew up well
Yeah, I grew up thinking that you have to ask other people for money,
and you have to be, you have to do what they tell you essentially.
My dad or my grandpa, if we ran out of money, my dad and my grandpa were the people that
she asked.
And so it was very much like, Grandpa wants us to do this.
Grandpa wants us to live here.
Grandpa wants us to, and same with my dad,
it's like, you need to be this way and I'll buy you a car.
Wow.
How would you describe that if you had to put a word
or words to that scenario?
I was always scared for what was gonna happen next.
Yeah, I was just always, I had no control over my life.
You still feel that way today?
Yeah, I do.
What ways?
I just feel like I'm like deep down.
It's probably not like in the front of my brain, but you down and always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
And so being the one that makes more money in my relationship does not feel like a comfortable role. I'm used to
someone else having a lot of money and then giving it when they felt like they wanted to.
Would you want that to be the case in your relationship? No, I don't want that to be the case, but I also saw a lot of enabling of my mom.
If she didn't come from a wealthy family, we wouldn't have had anything, and I can't
imagine her holding a job.
I don't know what my life would have been like.
And so for, I don't want to enable him in like, not giving him the space to grow who he wants to be career wise.
And so just like giving him money or like making,
he doesn't ask, but like making his life easier.
I don't know if that's the best thing to do either.
So you're here because you wanna help him?
So you're here because you want to help him? I'm here because I'm definitely scared to like combine our lives.
I've been doing well on my own and to start combining my life more and more with him,
I'm scared to release and relinquish control.
He is always stressed about my place, so there's not, there's something that isn't working. I'm scared to release and relinquish control.
He is always stressed about money.
So there's not, there's something that isn't working.
Talking about money or just if there's something,
some unforeseen circumstance, he's stressed.
So that's what I see.
Any conversations we had early on about finances
where like my idea is about the future and I wanted
for my future and then him I can't remember what he would have told me. When we started dating,
Hannah was just starting grad school and I think she was pretty psyched on her upcoming career and
how much money she was going to make. Why were you excited about the income you were going to make?
Previous to that, I was a flight attendant and while I got to travel and leave at a moment's
notice, there wasn't a lot of freedom in it.
I was excited that that was something that I was going to have and all while helping
people.
Money wise, I was excited that I was going to be increasing
my income significantly. Why? Was it mean to you? It means that I can relax, that I don't
have to be on all the time. Are you relaxed right now? I'm not relaxed now, but I'm in kind of like the last,
like squeeze before getting my license,
like the last, like hard part before getting my license.
That happens in a couple of months.
Yeah, three and a half months.
And then are you gonna be relaxed?
I, that's what I'm wondering. Do you want me to just tell you?
And I'm worried I'm not going to be.
Yeah.
I feel like I would take more on because I'd want, want to expand more.
Because?
Because.
Oh, okay, because you want more income.
Because?
Yeah, because I want more income.
And because I feel like if I were, if things were to fall apart, I would want more money
to just be able to be unemployed for a little bit. Yeah. Because when will the other shoe
drop? Yeah. Does that remind you of anything? My childhood. Yeah. Do you think there's a connection?
Yeah, I think there's a connection.
I don't think my relationship with money right now that I can ever feel fully safe.
There's not more to do.
I guess.
But you get to stop worrying about money.
I don't know. I think when I realize that I can go on a trip and not have to plan it around
like when it's best for my business or when it's best for my employer or when I'm able
to go on a trip and go where I want to go, not based on how much I can spend.
That's what I have in my head, I guess.
That's a good answer.
I like that last part, that's what I have in my head.
Sometimes what we have in our head is right,
and sometimes it's totally shockingly wrong.
How do you think Jake fits into this?
long, how do you think Jake fits into this? While I think that Jake probably has to be a little bit on edge around me, I would love to be able to live with Jake and I would
love to be able to, like, go with him where he travels. And so ideally, we're able to
live closer together throughout the year. Jake, what do you think? Hearing everything that Hannah just said,
are you surprised at all?
I mean, I understand her background and why
money's tough mentally and why I don't help that at all.
You know, I understand that and I just don't know how to move forward or like how to
be a better support.
I guess that's what I would like to support Hannah Bedard, give her that backbone or something
she, someone she can rely on.
I'm asking a few questions here, right?
It's your life.
Are you interested? Because you told me before, you don't really care about making more money.
No, I am interested in that.
I'm just in a place where it's not necessarily an option.
You know, I'm really in my career and I don't have a lot of flexibility
in the long term. You know. It might take several years.
The one thing is that I don't know where that's going to come from.
Isn't that the one thing that Hannah wants?
Because he is so young and he's 26 and I'm 31.
I guess I could just see it going on for the rest of our lives.
This is the number he's at and I just don't see I don't see him actually being okay with a number that he has
They're what you mean he said he's okay with it
Okay, I don't see that on a day-to-day basis
Okay, we got to get to this Jake you're stressed about money
I'm told by Hannah, but you don't seem stressed at all to me
So are you stressed about money?
Well, I guess you caught me in a good moment in time where I'm not stressed about money
But I am I didn't say I have enough money right now
But I don't need to make a thousand dollars a month
The numbers are low, you know, I'm not necessarily in the red, but yeah. I mean, Hannah, he's telling you straight up,
this is who I am.
He's being very honest.
I work in this industry.
This is the deal.
I'm getting my training.
This is the kind of money I make.
It might turn into something else.
I'm taking steps and my schedule is unpredictable
during certain seasons.
He's telling you straight up.
Yeah.
and seasons. He's telling you straight up.
Yeah.
I feel like for the since November
and up until now, I'm okay with that.
Like I'm okay with whenever what his schedule allows,
but it feels like financially and dates wise,
like I don't know what I could plan for us.
There's a lot of dancing around what might really just be
a basic financial incompatibility
or a difference in life stages.
Let's start with the possibility of life stages or seasons.
Jake is young.
He's early in his career.
And this is one of many reasons
that I don't focus on very young people
to teach personal finance to. Why? Because
many of them simply do not care. I'm not saying anyone is a bad person, but there are seasons of life
where you care about certain things. And me sitting here shaking people and saying, look at this
compound interest chart, you 21 year old, frankly, is not going to make many 21 year olds care about
money.
Think about it.
Would it make sense to sit here and teach a class on how to rock a baby to a 21 year old
single person?
Probably not.
So maybe Jake just doesn't care right now.
Do I wish he cared about money?
Of course, but I can't make someone care and neither can Hannah.
There is another darker possibility that this is just a
basic incompatibility on a very important value. Notice that Hannah doesn't even want
to touch that because the implication is so severe. Instead, what does she say? She says,
quote, I'm okay with whatever his schedule allows, but it feels like I don't know what I could plan for us.
What do you think is going on here?
What advice would you give to them?
I'm curious, leave your thoughts in the comments
on YouTube and Instagram,
and I will read all of those comments.
Let's continue.
Do you grow up middle class or lower middle class?
I'm probably middle, the group in Seattle.
My mother was an acupuncturist.
She died when I was 14 and my dad works,
he's worked for various nonprofits.
Got it.
You're replying about your mom.
Thanks.
You grew up in what?
The house and apartment, What are we talking about?
Yep. Three bedroom house. Yeah. And what you're doing in neighborhood?
What's your dad teach you about money and your mom also?
I think they both taught me to spend money when you need to. If you need something like education or close or gear for your job,
then you should make that happen. You should spend that money.
Were they both into the outdoors like you? Yeah.
Cool. So that's a good place for that.
Our career is out of it, but yeah.
Okay. Cool. What else did they teach you about money? Saving was important to have some money
Just in case and then also they taught me to be charitable with my money, which I don't necessarily practice these days
Okay
They sound like great parents great lessons too. I think so. Yeah, you have pretty positive memories of your childhood
I think so. Yeah.
You have pretty positive memories of your childhood?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Hannah, any of that surprised you hearing that?
No, it doesn't surprise me.
I feel guilty, not guilty.
I feel weird because I feel like your dad has talked to me more about money and you growing
up than maybe you.
He told me recently that he was always wishing that his,
or not always, but at a certain point in time,
he was wishing that his mom would work just a little bit more,
like see more people and just make a little bit more money.
And in hearing that, I was like, oh no, is this the,
do we have a similar dynamic to what his mom and dad had?
That was my thought.
I never thought about that. I guess it's possible. Yeah. And I guess my,
my mom was pretty stressed about money a lot. And I think that was a,
yeah, a big item of discussion. What do you remember about your mom being stressed
if you're comfortable sharing?
Yeah, I mean, I think they argued about money,
what to spend it on. I mean, my dad was kind of the same way.
They're both pretty frugal about something, but maybe arguing about which grocery store to go to.
Yeah, yeah, whether the certain item can be afforded or something like that.
Yeah.
Arguments about groceries are usually never about groceries, you know, they're usually
about something way deeper.
It's hard, you know, as an adult talking about your parents, but there's some clues here.
Okay. Hannah, you're realizing that you may be replicating the dynamic that you heard,
Jake's dad talked about. You got a big smile on your face right now. What's going through your head?
Because I'm now remembering that early on in our relationship, we've thought about which grocery
store to go to. Not far to like it would be it would be it would be? It would be. Hold on. What were the options?
Lay out the two grocery stores for us. Which were they?
So the co-op, which is like the organic, and then there's like the the like cheaper store.
It's like mix of organic and not organic. And I always shopped at the co-op.
And he did not like that I would have a stop at the co-op and then we would
go to TNC for his stuff.
That is true and I think that is still a relevant issue.
I'm down to go to the co-op but not for everything.
Do you guys ever conclude your discussions about money with a final decision?
I really don't think so. Jake? Yeah, I think maybe sometimes I give in. The
hand is argument. Even in my question to you, I didn't even get a yes or no answer. Let me ask it again, Jake. Do you ever end your money conversations
with a final decision?
Yeah, I think so.
I don't wanna push too much.
What is that?
I would just rather not have the argument.
So, I have so many questions about this grocery store example.
First of all, why are you even asking?
Don't you make a lot more money Hannah?
We're talking about dinner, which is always like
I
Don't know it just takes so long for us to decide on what we're gonna have for dinner
So we're gonna go to the we're gonna go to the grocery store
Eventually I find myself just going to TNC more even though I don't like to go there
Hmm see any patterns here
TNC more even though I don't like to go there. Hmm, see any patterns here?
I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or not,
like giving in.
I don't know either, but I'll tell you that you are
asking for permission when, by the way, it's your money.
You are having repeated conversations
with repeated patterns over and over again, even though you already know
exactly what's gonna happen.
And then you're shrinking yourself.
You're minimizing going to a place
you don't even wanna go or even having the conversation,
even accepting the premise of arguing over groceries.
Don't you guys make a little too much money
to be arguing over the price of like pairs?
It's either that or I eat alone or like you my own dinner.
You've taken a wrong turn somewhere.
If you two can't make a decision about groceries shopping,
then it's no surprise that you can't make a decision about careers and living
together and money and joint accounts.
I think we want the same thing.
I just don't know how to get there.
It sucks.
Okay.
Does this suck enough to change anything for you, Jake?
Yeah, I definitely want that to change.
I'd want to be with Hannah year-round, absolutely.
I just wish I had a more concrete answer in time frame.
It's very difficult to live a rich life if your Venmoing receipts. It's just too small.
It is. It's too small. To be able to think big, I mean, you guys want to go travel to
the mountains in different countries, in different states. It's very difficult to do that if
you're like sitting there, Venmoing $5 back and forth. It's keeping you small. And in order to get to
think at a bigger level, what is our savings rate? How much money are we
investing together? How can one of us get a raise or whatever? I guess it would be
like climbing. If you want to get up to the top, you got to start one steady step
at a time. And when you get higher, you're not going back down. You don't want to get up to the top, you got to start one steady step at a time. And when you get higher, you're not going back down.
You don't want to look back down. You just keep going up.
Same thing here. All right. Now, this is the first time I've ever used that metaphor with someone
who actually knows how to climb. How did I do?
I think you nailed it. That's good.
Oh my god. I'm turning into an outdoorsman today. All right.
Forget all this business shit. I'm coming to the mountains.
All right. Have you two talked about your rich life together?
We have we both want to go to Europe. We'd like to go to France. I would like to do stuff in the mountains and I think and we've talked about
How we can both do a trip together and I think it's possible. I really think we can do that it honestly kind of soon
When together. And I think it's possible. I really think we could do that. It honestly kind of soon when three years maybe that last. I would love to do that. It sounds really exciting. I think we've
talked about that. We've stopped talking about I would want to go there. Talking about the details,
I think is difficult for us. To go into the details, it feels like I have to motivate myself to just continue with
the conversation, because it just kind of dead ends.
Well, you're afraid to ask for specifics, Hannah, because you know that if you ask for specifics,
you're going to get turned down, dissuaded, minimized.
It's just a lot of like, imagine you two are driving. You're going to get turned down, dissuaded, minimized. It's just a lot of like,
imagine you two are driving,
you're going back and forth,
and you're not actually going in a straight line to anywhere.
It's just almost a circle.
It's got to be frustrating.
I'm frustrated.
I feel like we're going in circles.
I agree. I think you're on it, dude.
I think we are going in circles. We're in the same time. I know this're on it, dude. I think I think I think we are going in circles.
We're in the same time. I know this is like a classic answer. Like we do need time, you know,
like time doesn't need that much time. You're 26. She's 31. Not that much time. We just started new
careers in the last two years. Here's how I look at it. I'm in a big hurry. Now, it doesn't mean that I'm going to make
rash decisions. No, it doesn't mean that I'm going to wake up stressed every day, not
at all. I love chilling on the couch. I love having slow mornings. I'm down. And like,
you clearly, Jake, love to be outside. Love it. But with my life, I'm in a hurry.
Meaning, there are things I want to do.
And I know that the things I want to do are big.
I don't even know how to do some of that stuff today.
I don't even know how to get there, but I know that in order to get there, I got to take
a couple steps today.
I got to take a couple steps tomorrow.
Now, here's the key.
That's me.
If I were with somebody who was not into that, they would find that really annoying.
They would be like, dude, chill.
Things are good.
Why are you always stressing?
And in my head, I'm like, I'm not stressed.
I love the game.
I love it.
So it's just a different way to look at the world.
Jake, I see a big smile on your face.
What is occurring to you as I say this?
That's how I feel.
You're speaking my language.
You're like, I am making moves.
I started my career.
It's been a couple of years.
I'm getting this training.
And what are you hearing from your partner?
What are you hearing from Hannah?
Faster.
Every day faster.
Yeah.
And Hannah, what are you saying to yourself?
I've been working hard since I was eight years old.
I worried because we had to.
We didn't know where, if our dad, grandpa was going to provide money, I had to do that stuff.
And so I've been taking on responsibility forever.
And now, even now I'm about to get paid double triple, whatever you're going to get paid.
And I want to have a partner in this.
I want someone who knows what that's like and is willing to put in work and make big moves.
Am I getting that right, Hannah? Exactly, right. Yeah, that's exactly it. Okay. And what do you hear from Jake?
I hear I'm not ready to be a partner yet, but maybe someday and just give me some time and I
will want to be that at some point. Do you think that the two of you want the same thing or different things?
I cannot figure it out.
I think we want same things in the long term.
We want to live together.
We want to be able to travel freely.
We want to not worry about money.
I think those are concrete things we both want.
It doesn't sound that specific to me.
Jake, you want to live together?
Okay, fine.
You want to travel together?
Where?
When?
How much money do you want to spend?
So have you talked about the specifics of what you want?
I guess not.
It has been together three years.
Maybe you've been busy.
What, we're here now.
Should we do it now?
Yeah.
Sure.
Can we start with the groceries?
I'm down to buy our organic food at the co-op.
I just can't afford it right now.
That may sense.
Yeah.
I am okay paying more for groceries.
I would rather it be a conversation that we had each month, as opposed to every time we went to the store having to pick out
how much I spend, how much you spend.
I would like it to be something that we agree on
before. How about never? How about never having a conversation about pickles? What a waste of time.
Yes. Why are you doing this? I mean, I'm looking, I know your numbers. I looked at your
CSP. You guys make too much money to be doing. You want to do it and I am trying to compromise.
I don't want to be the one that makes the new system on my own. I feel like I'm constantly like talking about it. I don't know how to
motivate the conversation, I guess. Ah, motivate. Motivate the conversation or motivate
him. Um, motivate him. You can't motivate somebody.
They have it or they don't.
Now you can shape it, you can support it, but the simplest way to get a great partner is
to find the person who's already mostly what you're looking for.
So what I'm looking for from the two of you is for you to be more honest than you've ever been
about what you want. If you see it differently, one of you's like, I want to plan 10 years ahead
and the others like, I don't, I'm doing what I'm doing, I'm on my path, then you're going to have
conversations that don't feel like a puzzle piece fitting together.
Okay.
That's up to you to decide if you see your lives the same way.
I can't tell you that.
What I'm hopefully doing here is giving you a little structure around money so that
you can at least take that off the table as a reason not to connect.
And then for the two of you to really have
some honest conversations, what do we want?
Okay.
You look nervous.
It's so new to me.
It's, and I feel like I'm doing it mostly on my own.
I'm excited that Jake and I have,
like can look at the finances together
and maybe I can talk to him more about what I'm experiencing,
or like I would like to be able to talk to him more
and him kind of get involved.
But I think that that's too big of an ask
with where we're at in our relationship,
where we are in a committed relationship,
and I think we do want the same things in the future.
It's very much I have a lot to think about on my own.
Here's an overview of their finances.
Their assets, 17,500, which includes a truck
and two snowmobiles, this may be the only couple
I've ever spoken to on this podcast
who actually needs a truck.
Their investments, $34,341, they're savings,
$23,907, they're debt $82,208, no credit card debt
included there. Therefore their net worth is negative $6,460. Hannah's gross monthly income is 3,100,
and therefore their combined annual gross income
is $101,000.
Now keep in mind that Hannah's income
will more than double very soon.
So there's a problem,
I mean, there's a number of problems here,
but one of the problems is,
what's that fixed cost number?
83%. 33%.
What's this supposed to be?
Like 60.
50 to 60.
50 to 60%.
So at 83%, you, because you're spending so much in your fixed cost, you essentially
have no money for some of the other stuff.
Hey, can you match the 350 I spend in groceries a month?
No, but I have got it down to like $5.50 I think is what I'll be at, but I'm okay paying
more for groceries.
Great.
$5.50 and $350 equals $900 a month.
Cool, you lowered it by $250 or so.
Great, we're down to 79%.
Oh, Hannah's eyes just went, oh shit.
That's right, Hannah, $200 ain't gonna get you there.
With the lifestyle you've created,
if you want to live in the place you live in, have insurance,
have a car, pay off the debt that you've incurred, then we got to do something else.
So what are your options?
Make more money.
Yep.
And you are going to make more money, right?
By the way, most couples say that and I'm just like, I immediately shut that down
because it's totally delusional, but you actually are going to make more money, right?
Yeah.
I make 40% of what I'll be making in four or five months.
What's the amount you're going to make in four or five months?
Oh, um, I, she's pulling out a newspaper.
She's been waiting.
I'm pulling out my, my conscious spending plan.
I think it's like 10,500.
It's on the other tab.
Oh, hold on.
We see here.
10,551.
Whoa.
I think we may have just solved a number of problems.
Hold on.
Watch this.
Jake, you better watch this closely.
Remember when you said you don't care about numbers in a spreadsheet.
You're about to care. Watch this, Jake, you better watch this closely. Remember when you said you don't care about numbers in a spreadsheet, you're about to care, watch this.
Whoa!
Wow, it's so cool.
What's the net amount, Hannah?
It's 11,106.
That really changed things a lot.
Jake, what do you notice?
Our fixed costs have gone down to 44%.
All right, round of applause on that.
That's magic.
Suddenly, everything has changed.
Let me cut in here to show you what actually happens when you do increase your income.
This is one of the most common questions I get.
How do I increase my income?
And I teach this in our earnable program,
which shows you how to find a profitable idea
and start a business on the side.
I'm gonna throw that link and show notes
for those of you who are interested
in increasing your income.
So your number went from roughly 83% fixed costs
to now 44%.
What does this mean for your life?
Can you tell me? I have no idea and
I'm still just shocked by that. Yeah, yeah. Jake, does it mean anything different to you?
It's hard for me to wrap my head around change because it's not my money. Well,
let me tell you what I see. I get really excited by this because the
change I just saw in your conscious spending plan to you is just a number. To me, it represents
a complete change in your socioeconomic status, complete. It's amazing. The fact that you
are even below the 50 to 60% recommendation means you have tons of money to save, tons of money to invest.
You can go on your trip to the hot springs and go ahead, get the breakfast, get the extra thing.
It's great. You can do that. You can pay off your debt faster if you choose to,
but because you both are actually kind of savvy with the interest rate understanding, You can pay off your debt faster if you choose to,
but because you both are actually kind of savvy
with the interest rate understanding, you don't have to.
This is absolutely amazing.
I didn't set in until you said that,
and I'm just, I'm so proud of myself.
Yeah.
That's cool.
What does it mean to you?
It means that like I have more control over my life. Like if I put my mind to something,
I can make it happen. And I can trust myself to make it happen.
I believe that. And Jake, I heard you say something just a second ago. What do you say?
I was saying I'm I'm really proud of you too, Hannah.
Thank you. Yeah. I love this.
What do you think that this means for the two of you?
I think that it means I can be with him in the mountains and still have
be with him in the mountains and still have my own level of comfort. Like I can,
I can be with him but not worry if I'm putting, putting my future at risk.
I think I will feel more comfortable being concise about the things that I want.
Because? things that I want. Because. Because I have the money to do it. And if I want to go to
the hot springs, I can say I want to go to the hot springs with you. And we work out
at time. And I can pay for it. And I don't have to worry. Can I pay for it? Can I not? Should
he pay for some? would that make it easier?
It would just be more concise in the numbers
or more apparent in the numbers that I could.
I'm glad that she is able to,
that gives her a sense of freedom,
which will probably give both of us more freedom.
Okay, great.
Nice.
And while you may not be spending more of Hannah's money,
you probably will be enjoying more of it's money, you probably will be enjoying more
of it.
Would that be fair to say?
Yeah.
Are you okay with that?
I'm cool with that.
Okay.
Hannah, are you okay with that?
I'm okay with it, yes.
So let's just take a look at the rest of the conscious spending plan.
Your investments are 8% of take home.
That's actually higher than I thought.
Who's putting the money here? 400. Both of you are doing it. Wow.
I'm impressed. Am I? Is this true? Jake, you're putting 150 bucks a month away for investments?
Yeah, I read your book, dude. I mean, he got me on the automatic investments.
That's quite sophisticated to understand the relationship, you know, this fucking guy.
He really read this book. Okay, well done.
And you're putting away 150 bucks a month. That's awesome.
Hannah, you're putting away 400 bucks a month. Is that true?
Yes. All right. 550 at 8%. I mean, honestly, that's better than a lot of people.
I'm impressed. All right, I got no feedback.
Savings, 12%.
So you have $158 a month for vacations.
That's very specific.
It would be nice to be able to take a trip together, like, celebrating the end of the
winner.
Well, would you like to plan it right now?
Go ahead, you have 60 seconds to plan it.
Go ahead.
I think it's too soon to go camping,
but I would like to maybe go to a hot springs
and just like,
seven in a hotel at a hot springs.
So you wanna go to Chico?
I would like to go a little bit further than Chico, maybe.
Okay, well we can look.
I don't know where other their hotsprings are,
but we can do that.
Okay.
So that's something that I can start to plan
in a couple of weeks that I was doing.
Yeah, let me, I'll text you the date,
and then let's find a hotspring we want to go to.
Okay.
This is taking longer than 60 seconds. Can we confirm this?
But the weekend of May 6th and 7th.
It's good.
Okay.
I love seeing it.
We got the groceries.
You two are about to take another two weeks to find a date.
I'm like, no fucking way.
We're doing this right now.
All right.
So you have a date. What about the money? fucking way. We're doing this right now. All right, so you have a date.
What about the money?
How you gonna decide how much to spend?
I imagine I would pay for it.
Okay.
Is that a question or a statement?
I'm okay paying for it.
Are you okay with me paying for it?
I'd like to contribute it
and I feel comfortable or contributing.
Okay.
I feel guilty asking you to go on a trip because you're not working right now.
I hear you.
I will be working, but yes.
Okay.
Well, that's good to know.
How much?
This has always been my dream.
Watching two people, you know, have this very intimate conversation,
then I'm just sitting in the background on the mic.
How much?
I could put it in $150.
Okay.
And I don't know how much it costs to go than the nine-and-a-hats rings.
Probably another 150 is all we would need, I think, with transportation and eating out
for meal.
We go out to dinner.
We go out for all meals or just one meal.
Maybe a dinner and a breakfast.
Okay.
I don't know what the finances would look like other than I know you can contribute $150
and I can contribute the rest.
How's that sound?
It sounds good.
Sounds great.
Okay, great.
High five each other.
Great job.
You made a decision.
Miraculous.
I like when you two are decisive.
No more dangling things. no more sending text messages,
just like, yeah, we're done.
It's done.
And now, you're each off to the races.
Jake's going to show up on this date.
Hannah's going to book the thing.
You both know how much money, like, there's no more questions.
What does that feel like?
It feels good.
It feels really good.
Yeah.
I love seeing the two of you in this situation.
When you compare what you just did to some of the other conversations you've had, which seemed to go in a circle, what's the difference?
The conclusion, I guess.
I know where I'm coming from and he knows where he's coming from in terms of what he can
spend and what I can spend.
Yeah.
You're being honest with yourselves and honest with the people around you.
This, I'm gesturing with just talking, talking, talking, talking, it's not honest.
Because when you just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, you're not even honest with yourself.
You haven't taken the time to introspect and say,
like, what do I really want?
Or what is my boundary?
What do I not want?
Remember this moment because this is where I want you
to be working towards, especially with easy decisions
like groceries and hot springs.
These are easy. Life will present you with much harder decisions, much bigger
decisions, and what you're doing with something like this is building the
skills of being able to talk about those complex things. Let me share the
follow-ups from Hannah and Jake. Hannah wrote, I was surprised by the fight or flight response I had
for the remainder of the interview.
I did not predict that I would be in the hot seat
when I signed up to do the podcast
because my partner is stressed about money
on a regular basis and I am not.
I personally do not question
if I want to be in a relationship with Jake.
On the contrary, I enjoy living long distance part of the year because it has allowed both
of us to work longer hours and delve deeper into our careers while also maintaining the
excitement and passion in our relationship.
One of my takeaways was that my partner wants to stay where he is financially regardless
of the panic and meltdowns I witness before most purchases
he makes. When he reaches out to me for assurance, I still don't know if I should pay for anything,
like his classes, if he is stressing out, or put my therapist hat on and help him work through
his own feelings. If and when I approach money conversations, I will make sure to have the what, when, and how written down beforehand.
Jake wrote and said, I was surprised by how unspecific our rich life vision was. I look forward
to refining and dreaming about our rich lives. A major takeaway of mine was the importance of
conclusions and concrete decision making. I need to stop putting off decisions.
If you and your partner are interested in having healthier conversations about money,
I'm going to be talking about that this Saturday on my free newsletter,
IWT.com slash podcast newsletter. I'm going to show you how to start having those
conversations and what to do if something potentially goes wrong in those conversations.
Get on the newsletter at iwt.com slash podcast newsletter.
Thanks for listening, thanks for watching, and I'll see you next time.
Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich.
I'm Remeteed Saiti.
Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
If you haven't read, I will teach you to be rich.
My book, pick up a copy.
You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics
for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.
finances.