I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 116. “She manages the money. I ignore it. What’s the problem?”

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

Carrie and Taylor are both 33, unmarried with no kids, earning good incomes in the Nashville area. Their CSP checks out—Carrie does a great job managing their money—but she’s no longer willing to do it alone. Taylor’s upbringing taught him to ignore it. Can he be convinced to change his ways? This episode is brought to you by: Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions – and manage your expenses the easy way – by going to https://rocketmoney.com/ramit. Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at https://facet.com/ramit. Babbel | Right now, when you purchase a 3-month Babbel subscription, you’ll get an additional 3 months for FREE. Just go to https://Babbel.com and use promo code RAMIT. LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at https://drinklmnt.com/RAMIT. Links mentioned in this episode • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Other episodes Connect with Ramit • Get the Podcast Newsletter and exclusive Q&A about the show • Get Money Coaching with Ramit  • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube • Submit a question for the newsletter iwt.com/askramit  If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

Before we get to the episode today, let's put aside all the long-term stuff that you and I know we should be doing more of calling our mom and dad going to the gym. Flossing, okay, yes, we should do all those things, but I want to talk about quick wins. The things we can do quickly to be able to be more productive, to be less anxious, to be in better shape, and even to be more generous. I'm talking about getting results in seven days. That is exactly what I'm going to be talking about this Saturday on the podcast newsletter. These are the actual tactics that I use myself and saw massive results in seven days. Yes, we should be doing the two year or five year, ten year things. Sometimes you just want quick results.

You can get this issue of the newsletter at iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. That is the only place you can get it. The email goes out this Saturday, September 2nd, iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. What words come to mind for you when you think of money? Oh my God. Better enjoy your life now because you won't get to when you're dead. Get rid of it. You got it.

You might as well get rid of it and buy some things while you're here. I don't want a relationship where I feel like I am your mother, telling you what we need to do and not do as a couple and making all the decisions for us. Why is this getting you emotional? I feel like it's been very unfair to carry. Maybe you know she doesn't really have all this everything figured out and yet I still have so much to learn. Just by having a simple conversation about numbers can propel us to a higher ground so easily just by having a conversation about it and not being afraid of why why the hell wouldn't we do that?

I have all the resources necessary and accessible to me to figure that out. And if I don't, that's just a son of laziness. I'd like you to meet Carrie and Taylor. They're both 33 years old. They've been together for eight years. They're not married. No kids. And they both earn healthy incomes in the Nashville area. The problem that we're going to hear about today is that Carrie wants Taylor to get more interested in their finances. She feels like she's in the driver's seat and he's passively riding along. And this is a very common dynamic in relationships with money. One person's reading my book, suddenly they start sketching out their vision of a rich life,

but whatever they ask their partner to participate, they get a lack luster response back, like whatever you want, honey, or even worse, why do you always need to talk about money? This becomes intensely frustrating, with the person pursuing becoming more and more exasperated that their partner is distancing themselves. So you know what they do? They double down in pursuit. Therapists talk about this with the pursuer, distancer, or chaser, chacy, dynamic, which I would encourage you to look up. I wanted to talk with Kerry and Taylor

about getting on the same financial page. And today I want you to apply this conversation to your own relationship with each other and with money. Carrie, you filled out the application and when you spoke to my producer, the first time you showed up alone, is that true? I did, so Taylor's on the road a lot. I heard that I don't know, the email, it was confused.

I was like, I don't know if we're supposed to be together. She just wants to talk to who applied. So yeah, I did. I shut up lonely if he was out of town. Now is that typical? Because you're one of the only couples that's ever done that. And I understand she sent you back and said,

no, it's got to be both of you, correct? Yes. OK, so is it typical that one of you is handling everything relating to money? And who would that be as a random guess? Carrie might that be you? Yes. The one who filled out the application, the one who showed up alone. Okay, it tells us over here laughing. Taylor, would you agree? Oh man, yeah. How long have you two been together? Almost eight years. Eight years. Okay. Carrie, when you got together with Taylor,

were you already pretty savvy with money? Yes, maybe not great at doing all the things, but I knew what I should be doing and was doing some of those things, for sure. Was it concerning to you at all that Taylor was not at the same level of financial savviness. Once I realized it, it took a while. Yeah. How long? Probably six months of dating. So, Kerry, we're here to talk about the role of money in your relationship with you and Taylor.

And I was struck by the application that you wrote. Has Taylor seen that application? He has not. Oh, no. OK. And I was struck by the application that you wrote. Has Taylor seen that application? He is not. Oh, no. Okay. Would you mind if I read some of it out loud here? Okay. Taylor, the reason that I was struck by this

was the severity and seriousness of the words that Kerry wrote. I'm a 33 year old woman who's been in an eight year long and seriousness of the words that Kerry wrote. I'm a 33 year old woman who's been in an eight year long relationship with my partner, and we still can't figure out how to talk about money together, and I'm at my wit's end. I have been ready to get married for the last three or so years,

and now that he makes more, he is starting to express his desire to take that step too. However, in the back of my head, I feel hesitant to say yes because I am so frustrated with his lack of care or desire to talk about financial concerns, plans, etc. This is in all capitals. I'm so tired of Venmo requests and figuring out who pays for what. I'd like to pause there. Carrie, you remember writing that? You know, the the width in part was I feel like I've tried a lot of different avenues to

tried a lot of different avenues to make it exciting or to ask a question or to draw him in. And we, and he gets really excited about the dream planning, you know, we love to talk about the dreams and the what could it be. But then when I start delving into the details, a complete shut down and block. Thank you. Taylor. Hearing what Carrie wrote. What, how do you receive that? Me being me, uh, sucks. I mean, it, I don't want to say no, it hurts because doesn't, I don't care. Like, she's the one that's feeling this way. So, you know, it just sucks. Yeah, it just sucks to hear because I should be better. And and should, I don't wanna say be more of a man in this situation, that the, just more communicated and a better partner in general. I don't care about what I'm feeling. I care about what she's feeling.

But I care what you're feeling. So, what are you feeling right now? But I care what you're feeling. So what are you feeling right now? Oh man, probably the one emotion I hate feeling. Disappointment. At who? Myself. This is the first time that someone showed up

to our screening interview alone. My producer was like, what's going on here? And I think it actually reveals a lot when someone fills out an application without their partner knowing, or when you hear couples who didn't do the conscious spending plan together. It actually reminds me of these case interviews I used to do in college for management consulting firms. You go in there and they ask you a question like, how many ping pong balls fit in a 747? Or how many gas stations are there in the United States? The truth is they don't really care about your answer. But what they want to hear is how you break down a thorny problem.

That's the same thing here. When couples work on their CSP, I'm not really concerned if they get the calculations right. What I'm much more concerned with is how do they work on their CSP together? Are they cooperative or do they attack each other? Does one person do all the work? Right now, it sounds like Kerry is the one in charge, but she wants something to change. And what I hear from Taylor is that he admits being disappointed in himself. Sometimes I speak to couples on this podcast who are very resistant to changing their spending. They go, it's already too tight. There's no money. We don't know what else to do. We just need to earn more money. I go, all right,

let's take a look at your numbers first. Within five minutes, I'm going, uh, you got 250 bucks over here. You didn't even account for, we got another 150 bucks over here that's totally wasted on stuff you don't even care about. Did we really just find $400 in your couch cushions every single month? I want you to go from spending money unconsciously to spending it consciously. That's how you start to build a rich life. And consciously could mean paying off your debt more aggressively, investing more aggressively, even just having a couple of nice meals every single month. Your rich life is yours. But what we can't do is just let money be spent without thinking about it. Think about the subscriptions that you signed up for six months ago

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headquartered in Baltimore, Maryland. This is not an offer to sell securities or investment. Financial, legal or tax advice, past performance is not a guarantee of future performance, terms and conditions apply. If I had to ask you back then, eight years ago, what words come to mind for you when you think of money? Oh my God.

Just to be honest, terrified. The mobiles paid great. I don't really care to talk about money. Kind of deal. Got it. I mean, yeah. And what about today? Way different. I would say the three words I would say excited, eager. And I don't have as much time but yeah very eager and excited I would say those two. Okay that's a pretty huge change from terrified to eager and excited and when did that change happen? I think the issue today would be a

different issue than it was because of my mental therapeutic journey. I lost my dad like right before I met Gary and I'm sorry to hear that. It still sucks. I feel like after I got better, I was able to mentally like process. So you were in your 20s early days? That's tough. 24 years old man. Were you in your dad close? Oh yeah. Do you seek help? Oh yeah, I had to do it. It was COVID came around and I lost both of my careers and I was just kind of stuck at home

and I was just staring detrimental, you know, mental abuse to myself and not catering to anything I needed to do and whatnot. And so I decided to take my life back. And that's without a doubt been, I'm going to say the reason why that I've been able to like move past the fear and be excited because I've been able to like compartmentalize so many things in my brain. Instead of just being like a shoot cocktail or just chaos. Yeah.

And by doing that, I've been able to like process day-to-day things. And that's how bad it was. I couldn't even process hour-to-hour things. And when you can't do that, then you can't even begin to plan out your life. Yeah. Are you still getting help begin to plan out your life. Are you still getting help?

Yeah, I still talk. It's very, very sporadic. I've gotten to the point now that I was the end result for when I started, and that was I call and make the appointment when I need it. Wow. Instead of having a specific every 10 days, every 6 days, every Tuesday and Thursday, that was the goal. Sorry for your loss. It's okay, it's okay.

What happened in those seven and a half years? As it relates to money specifically. I think it happened when I started making a lot more money than I've ever made. My life. I would say a couple of years ago. Things have changed recently, which is what prompted the kind of, I guess, the application, because now there's something to work with before. I mean, he's right in the sense that two, three years ago he was making very little money. There

wasn't much to work with. How much was he making? Taylor, what was your hourly wage? Well, a total of like yearly I was making less than 40 grand a year. And then recently you started making a lot more money. So how has that changed things? It's many things really exciting. It's like, hey, all those big dreams and things we do love to talk about. They are very much now starting. We can start making some of these a reality. These can be within grasp. I love hearing all this, but why are we talking?

It sounds great, actually. He has achieved a lot. Taylor, you seem to be doing really well in your career. You're making way more than you used to make. 40K. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble.

I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a lot of trouble. I've been in a type of financial mediation between us to get a lot of fire at her mom button and let Carrie speak the way she wants to. But Carrie, why have you not said this,

you've been together for eight years? I feel like I have tried to say it in lots of different ways. Any time we've ever moved or made a big decision together, whether we chose to do something or chose against doing something, it's something I bring up to you, or anytime we've ever had extra money together, you know, it's something I bring up to you.

And the response typically is, like I don't care, just like do whatever you want to do, like I want to have free, flowing, positive conversations I want to have free, flowing, positive conversations with you about our future finances, money, what we want to do with our hard work together at any given, you know, mostly any given time. That's what I want. Just kind of take, I don't know how to take down my walls of fear when talking about money. I have no desire, I have no idea how to do that. Okay, hold on, let's not talk about talking about money.

Let's just talk about money. So you want to have a conversation about money? Go ahead. So we filled out the conscious spending plan together and that was the first time Legitimately that I have been able to get him to sit down with not for lack of trying But that was the first time Taylor that you and I and we talked about this were able to sit down and walk through Just general life finances.

Yeah. Right. I mean, we had never talked about. Yeah, and it felt great. And it felt great too. It was, it was great. Yeah, we hadn't talked about our, you know, like I knew a lot of things about maybe

somebody you're dead. I know that, you know, I know more than you knew about me, I would say. So that was a really interesting and really cool moment for me. I think you felt So that was a really interesting and really cool moment for me. I think you felt cool in the moment as well to be able to sit down and be like,

whoa, here it is all on the table. I remember you were like, whoa, when you saw the monthly number, you were like, I had no idea. At the end of it all was like, I was like, that was so cool. That was so positive. I told a few people about it. It was just the first time I was like,

oh, he's wanting to sit down and do this as a team. And it was just really cool. I loved it. It allowed us to talk together about what, like, look what we have. How do we go to the next step? No, we didn't. We haven't had that kind of conversation truly yet. But I saw it as like, oh, that's like a really good sign of like,

here's the next thing that can come. Yeah, I agree. I agree 100%. Well, it definitely opened my eyes to seeing, well, maybe you don't, maybe, you know, she doesn't really have all this, everything figured out. And yet, I still have so much to learn. And you taught me so much that day. Like, it's stupid, is that sounds?

I mean, you did. It was amazing. I really enjoyed it. I really, I really. It was amazing. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it actually. I really enjoyed stealing like I was on the same level. Nice. But I also really enjoyed our smiling and being happy about it.

Because it's never happening. It's never happened with money. Yeah. Well, that makes me happy. I love knowing that this little modest little conscious spending plan we created is bringing the two of you together. You guys are smiling, you're crying, you're having conversations about money in a positive way. Yeah. I love that. So building blocks and learning that just by having a simple conversation about numbers can propel us to a higher ground so easily just by having conversation about it and not being afraid of why I want to hell wouldn't we do that.

I know it's that you're both crying. I'm curious why. I feel like it's been very unfair to carry. And what has? Our lack of financial conversation because she has done so many things to fulfill my needs. There's nothing like bringing up something, you know, right in the teeth. And it just, it just, yeah, just really, it just, it hurts, it hurts to know that, you know, you have somebody that's done everything that can for you, everything that can. And

you haven't really reciprocated that too well. I have always seen such extreme potential with Taylor, and it's been really, really cool. I mean, obviously I have extreme, deep love work on, I think which is where the emotions coming from, but I have seen such such strong, incredible potential out of him over the years, and then I've gotten to see him incrementally like meet that potential in areas. And then this is just kind of the one area that just will not

get met. It's this piece that I find so important because I it's everything to take us where we need to go and to have the life we want. But it's, you know, he can't see that. And I have just never been able to like make him see that money is the tool, that the vessel that gets us to this wonderful dream world. You you love to talk about. This is why money is emotional. It's not enough for me to sit here and throw spreadsheet at someone and say, cut your fixed expenses to 60% of net.

We bring a lifetime of experiences to our money. Love and loss, confidence and insecurity. The numbers on the page are just an output of those experiences. They're not the input. They're like the fingerprints showing us clues of where we've come from. What I want for people is to recognize those clues about themselves. I want them to deeply understand how money works

and then I want them to decide on their future together. That's what I mean by designing a rich life. It's not about swimming in cash. It's about deciding, what do I want my life to be and what do we want our lives to be? What would make this life incredibly meaningful for us? It could be as extravagant as buying a supercar for traveling four months a year, or it could be as simple as building a lifestyle where you can pick up your kids from school every

afternoon. But it has to be intentional, and if you're in a relationship, it has to be done together. With Kerry and Taylor, Kerry's in charge of the money. And Taylor has some very valid reasons for the way he's ignored money and felt insecure and incompetent around it for a long time. But it's not working for them.

Listen now as I try to get him to make a connection between an area of life he's really good at and his money. If we ended our call right now, how would you feel about your future as it relates to money with Taylor? I would feel nervous. He feels like he doesn't isn't confident in a topic or what's being discussed or had. Taylor what's an area of your life where you're really confident? Music? Love it. Let's talk music. I think that's the industry that you're involved in. So you know music that's what you do for a living. You've been promoted. You now make a lot of money.

Fantastic. What's a question I can ask you about some music thing right now? Just give me a sample question. For what I did, you can ask me how many lighting, how many lights and lasers I have in my rig. Okay, I love it. Okay, this is a great question because I don't even know the answer. Taylor, how many lights and lasers do you have in your rig? As of right now, we have 288 lighting fixtures and 12 lasers. And I can tell you every spec on every single one of them. Okay, I love that answer. Thank you very much. And thank you for playing along with me.

This actually helps me understand you a lot better. Yeah. The answer you just gave me had two things that I think were notable. First, it was extremely direct and concise, no circling back and going forward. And second, you actually laughed. Yeah. You're comfortable. So, keep going with me for just a second.

What would it feel like if you took that same feeling of competence that you just had in that answer? And you applied it to our discussion about money. I would feel great. I feel like a superhero. Love that. Keep going. It would just feel awesome. It would feel cool to just feel that confident and something that I'm not at all confident in. Love it. And I see that smile on your face. One of the first times I've seen that, I love that.

I think you would laugh a little bit more. I think that would be awesome. Yeah. Okay. And I think you'd be engaged. I can even see you physically leaning forward. I love this. So we gain confidence through competence. You may not have the most competence with money on today's conversation. That's okay.

But what I want you to try to do is to bring that feeling of confidence with you into our conversation today. Okay. Cool. All right. So, Carrie, how would you characterize your role when it comes to money in your relationship? Historically, I have been at the Breadwinner the main money maker of the family which has

Truly never been a contentious point between us who manages the money? I managed the majority of household things and have slowly asked him to, you know, over the recent years take on some of that. Okay, great. All right. So you would characterize your role as the breadwinner, as the primary money manager, any other ways you would describe your role with money in your relationship. The planner, the one thinking ahead about what comes next, how do we get there? Do we set aside this much money? Do we not buy this? Do we do that? Do we get this cheaper thing?

You read my book? Yes. Okay. All right. Now let me ask Taylor. Taylor, I already know you didn't read my book. So let's just get that out of the way. He's laughing. All right. Outdoor guy, physical labor, things like that. Okay. Carrie is the fine. I mean, that's just as nut shells on get it. Okay, got it. He's a helper. Yes, helper. Taylor, if you're the helper, then what is Carrie? My boss, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I would say, she's got her hand over her face right now. Oh God, I know. The doer.

She's an action person, not a words person, and I'm the exact opposite. What are you Taylor? I'm words, words, words. If you look at me and tell me that everything's gonna be okay and you just look me in the eyes, it's all right. You words guy at work? Yeah, everybody knows me. The guy that just talks a lot.

Okay, but don't you have that rig with 208 lights and lasers? I do. So you carry those things around, transport them, put them up, take them down, all that stuff, right? Yeah. What's the difference? Sounds like you're not just talking. Doing a lot of, well, got 90 minutes every night that when the guys are on stage

I'm at my console front house and I'm doing the entire show What if you're just chatting with people around go hey, you know, just so cool the lasers. Oh my god 200 megahertz I probably lose my job really No, I'm just kidding. I don't think you're kidding right if you just talk and didn't do yeah I'm just kidding. I don't think you're kidding, right? If you just talk and didn't do, yeah. I'm actually not kidding. So make the connection with your relationship. If you just talked, what would happen? Nothing ever gets done.

Mm-hmm. And take that to the logical extreme. What would happen? This becomes no more. This conversation doesn't even exist. This home doesn't exist. Carry? I think that's, yeah, that Certainly in a conclusion that could take place.

It's not it's not necessarily about money. It's about what we look like together in 10 years. Like what if we have children? What if we decide we want to do certain things with those children? We need money to do that. Money is the best way to get there. Let me just cut in here. Whatever you're feeling towards Kerry and Taylor, put it aside for a second, and really try to understand his perspective. He identified himself as a Southern guy. He said his job with finances is words, in other words, to reassure her. He works hard and he makes money.

If we dig into this, I suspect Taylor would say he's living up to the exact ideal he was raised with. Southern guy makes money, provides for the family, tells his wife everything's going to be okay. What's wrong with that? And why isn't this working? That question, why isn't this working? That's how I approach the next part of this conversation. I'm not trying to tell him something's wrong with him. It's not. It's just that this unconscious picture of life that he's trying to color in isn't the same picture that Kerry wants.

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So you mentioned the Southern Husband what'd you call it Taylor the Southern man Southern husband Southern dad Southern dad. Okay. All right What do you remember about money as a kid who'd you grow up with mom and dad? Okay, what did they say about money when you're a kid? What do you remember? I'm being a boy. I said I hardly anything. They didn't talk about money. Yeah, okay. Who paid the bills? My dad My mom was stay home mom. You ever see your mom paying bills, engaging with money in any way? That made the money, that made the money mom pay the bills. Oh, what she write the checks and

take it to the post office and the stores and stuff like that. Yeah. Okay. All right. Ever hear any disagreements about money from your family? Never. No. Southern. My dad worshiped the grandma and mom walked on. Your dad never even had a debit card. My dad passed away at 64 with no debit card, no credit card, no cell phone, no cell phone or anything.

Why? It was old school. As you got older, when you were in high school, do you remember your family ever talking about money at all? No, the only time I ever remember was my dad telling me at 14 or 15, time to get a job so you could save up by a truck, right? Wow. Was he kidding or was he serious? like 14 or 15, from the time you get a job, so you could save up by a truck, right? Wow. Was he kidding or was he serious? Dead serious.

Was there ever discussion of you going to college or no? Yeah. Yes. Did you go? Mm-hmm. I was gonna play soccer in college. Okay. And I didn't do it.

I just went to, I wanted to be a normal kid. How'd you pay for college? Hell grants up until I almost left school because of bad grades. Then I had to get student loans. Okay, how much did you walk out of college with? Oh, I do know that was so long. I was 12 years, 10 years ago. I get this.

How are you 20? I want to say it was right around like 30,000, 30,000. Do you pay that offer? Are they still around? I don't have about, I think I have that's on my sheet right now. It's just under 14 or whatever it is. It's just right around 14,000. Okay.

Okay. If you have to describe the way that you treated money, let's say from college until your mid 20s, how would you describe it? Liding it on fire every chance I got. Why? Can't take you with you when you go, right? Oh wow.

Who said that? Who's the first person you remember saying that to you? Ah. My dad, probably. And then the song. Yeah, huh? You can't take it with you when you go. What does that mean to you? Better enjoy your life now because you won't get to when you're dead. Yeah, and so the implication when it comes to money is what?

Get rid of it. You got it. You got it. You might as well get rid of it and buy some things while you're here. Gary hearing Taylor talk about this The truck his dad anything surprised you there? No. What do you observe about Taylor as he talks about his early 20s, lighting money on fire, things like that? I think he was lost in that time frame. He was scared and just trying to find purpose in a sense of who he was. He went the route of easy fun. Let's do whatever we want because I could die tomorrow.

I could die tomorrow. In fact, Taylor, your dad had recently died. Very sad, aren't you? Yeah, I mean, one thing that I had it really, I labored it on and I'm glad we touched on that, I can't take it with you when you go from the time of my dad passing it to right now. I've lost a lot of people and very close people in my life and it's... It's definitely taken a toll on me, but it definitely took a toll on that and made that far more worse than I ever heard it as a kid, like money burn a hole in your pocket. When dad crazily just out of the blue passed away randomly one Tuesday, I was like, oh my God, I have no choice. Like I have to. Dad was right.

I got to listen to my parents. And it just completely elevated the, can't take it with you when you go. And I think that there's been so many times in my life in the last eight years that instead of not spending money, I spent money. And I knew I shouldn't have. But how do you tell your broken self that? Now we're starting to see these layers of Taylor's life. His dad passed along some lessons of money to him, lessons that might not be applicable today anymore.

Then his dad passed away and Taylor spent his early 20s quote, lighting money on fire. All of this while being influenced by a stoic southern culture around him. Kerry, you go up in the South as well. Mm hmm. Okay. My dad was the main money maker and my mom is a stay at home mom. The majority of my life he is an entrepreneur. He's been, he's owned his own mom firm for years.

Convull Defense lawyer and then my mom also went and kind of did the entrepreneurial thing and did a lot of. Multi marketing level type. Oh, that's right. Oh, God. All right. Well, that's for another day. All right. So who paid the bills on a monthly basis in your family? So I heard my mom take this numerous times that growing up, it was always her. She always managed the money. He brought it home, gave it to her and she did everything. And then as we got older and left the house, the children, and they aged, she told him she was like, I'm doing that and she passed it over to him. So now he takes it. Wow, that's interesting. Do you ever ask her about that? How'd she do that? I remember asked her how she did it, but my dad's similar to what Taylor said about his dad and mom. she did it, but my dad's similar to what Taylor said about his dad and mom like worships the ground she walks on and definitely think she is smarter than you. And I would say we

have a similar dynamic, Taylor and I was relationship to my parents dynamic. And so I think when she laid put her foot down and said I'm not doing this anymore. He said, okay, I'll do what I want. And Carrie, have you put your foot down with Taylor? And in small ways. Let me ask that again. Have you put your foot down with Taylor? No, not really. I don't want to have to be that person. I feel I don't want the role of a mother. I view that as my mother and I view him thinking of me as a mother like as both his own and what my mom does, we know each other's mom's dream.

And I don't want that image in his brain that that's who I am. I'm his girlfriend, I'm his dear, you know, his love. I don't want a relationship where I feel like I am your mother telling you what we need to do and not do as a couple and making all the decisions for us because I know better or I'm smarter or have more experience.

And I point something out to you. When I asked him how he characterizes his role in your financial relationship, do you remember the word that he used? The helper? Yeah. You know who's helper? Children are helpers.

Here, I have this tangerine. Can you help me peel it? Here, be my helper. And who is handing the child the tangerine? Mother. Yeah. So you may not want that mothering dynamic, but the fact is it's already happening. Oh, I know. I know. Oh, you know it. I know it. I know it. I don't. I think that's part of that harshness and the application is that I don't want that anymore, never have. All right, so let me make sure I get this totally accurate. In your dynamic and the dynamic of the people around you,

the dynamic of the people around you. The Southern husband or Southern dad is outside physical labor. Are they the primary earner? Yes. Okay, so in this relationship, that part's a little different, but they're sort of making money or they're outside fixing things

and then their wife, she is what carry, how would you finish that sentence for me? She's paying the bills on time. She's calling the service repairman technicians when things fall apart. She's buying groceries most of the time. She's knowing when we're out of things, you have to replace things. But I am very much wanting to split the responsibility. I want to partner in those things. I don't want to have to maintain all that knowledge myself. It's pretty different than the people you grew up around, right? What do they think about this? About wanting to split the responsibility? I think those that

are our age would agree with how we feel and everyone older than that looks at us like what are you talking about? What do they say? What words do they use to describe it? That's just how it is. Keep going. You do these things. The man brings them the money. Oh, and if you're bringing in the money, well, you take, you know, he can take care of that. And just don't worry about it. You know, just that's the roles, the roles.

The roles. Okay. Taylor, anything that Kerry didn't get in those phrases? No, that's, that's very spot on to how it is. Okay, so you've heard that as well. Okay, all right. And Carrie, what do these folks say, do they know that you make more?

Yeah, I think so, maybe not now, but certainly in the beginnings of our relationship for five years, I think it was obvious. Yes. It's so interesting that, you know, Taylor, you had this off hand phrase a little while ago you said something about manning up. We've all heard the phrase, you know, he's got a man up. And it's so interesting that typically when we think of the origin of that phrase, man

up, we think of the man as what what would you say? Typically the man is you know breadwinner, all the ball and this the house owner, the the earner, the driver in the car, you know, just just things open in the door, you know, watching out for the kids holding the baby, changing the diaper, you know, when mom is not, when mom is not feeling good, and things like that, it's just, that's, that's the Southern mentality way of life for a man, like man up, like you said, that's just a part of this. But it's so interesting that you took that and you adapted because Kerry makes more, so you retained some of that old belief that you grew up with, that the man does the outside physical labor. But Kerry earns more and you've now integrated that into you being a man,

and you don't seem to have any issue with it, correct? No, I think that the old version of the Southern Man Up needed to be modified. I think my version of it in my opinion is the best modified version for the man that I need to be. It doesn't matter who makes more money if you're collectively earning money together and you are creating a life for yourself that you feel like is an abundance of life and a financial abundance for you later in life than what does it matter? Very progressive.

Okay, I'm with you, Taylor. I'm with you. I have to say I'm very you Taylor. I'm with you. I have to say, I'm very impressed hearing how the two of you have clearly thought about roles. And when I ask you questions about how you grew up, you just boom, you know those answers because you obviously grew up around them hearing these phrases over and over again. Yes. Nothing cultures a very strong culture. I love this podcast because we get to hear about different cultures every single week.

I remember the Pakistani couple from episode seven where he was expected to send money to his parents whenever they called. And if you grew up in America without immigrant parents, the entire concept is totally foreign to you. I love being able to bring those stories here to the podcast. And now today we get to hear Carrie and Taylor talk about Southern culture. Notice how they can articulate the exact words that people around them say. Like that's just how it is.

That's the roles. That kind of tacit knowledge is never written anywhere, but it is nonetheless very real. So big thanks to Carrie and Taylor here for sharing the culture they grew up with. They may not think it's noteworthy, but I do. I think we all do. What's even more special to me is that they are assessing their culture and deciding what parts they admire,

what parts they want to retain, and what parts they want to change. That is extremely advanced and in my opinion, extremely admirable. By the way, we're sitting here talking about Southern culture I was thinking, if I could have any accent in the world, of course it would be Australian, but after that, I really want that thick West Texas accent that Coach Taylor has from Friday night lights. Can you imagine listening to this podcast and I was talking like that? This would be the best podcast on the internet.

What is a specific example where the two of you have tried to talk about something and it didn't work? I can give one. Something that Taylor loves to explore and talk about and dream about is another home in a desirable beach town location. He talks a lot about LA. How cool would it be to have a little condo or apartment right by the beach or a studio that I could go to and work from, you know, that sort of thing. And he loves Desillo hunts. What cities are you looking in, Taylor?

Oh man, I love California. I love Arizona New Mexico. I know there's not a beach there, but it's just really cool. And Florida, just because that's where I grew up going as a kid. Okay, all right, got it. And I'll say that is cool. I mean, I'll there, but it's just really cool. And Florida, just because that's where I grew up going as a kid. Okay. All right. Got it. And I'll say that is cool. I mean, I'll be like, it's like not that far reaching of a price. Like, maybe that's something that is in our future. What, what would it look like to get there? And he's like, well, I don't, he's like, I don't want to, I don't want to do that. Like just like, it would be cool. Like, right? And I'm like, he's like, why can't you just say that? do that, like just like it would be cool, like right? And I'm like, he's like, why can't you just say that? I can't say that. I also just said how else can we do? How could we make that dream a reality? Also, would you be cool with another place that's maybe more affordable? What if it was like Costa Rica? And that sort of thing. And you know, and he's like, oh,

we, and he, he'll kind of go on that dream journey there. But then as soon as it gets down again, to like, you know, you can buy land there. Maybe we start out with just land and do it like that. He kind of shies away again. What do you think Taylor is feeling at your response? Frustrated that I can't just be in the moment. I think there are whispers in the back of each of your heads. Little whispers causing you to behave in peculiar ways and your partner knows them.

And so you start to respond to each other's whispers and the two of you haven't actually gotten honest with each other in a long time. Watch, Carrie, what is the whisperer on your right shoulder? Say, whenever you think about Taylor and money. He's not ever going to be interested. It'll always be something you have to handle and take care of. It's something he has the capability to understand and learn about, but for some reason doesn't want to or care. He could do it, but he doesn't because. He is comfortable with the way things are, and I already do it all. So therefore, in order to get him to care, what I really need to do is pepper him with questions ask him all the time account.

What comes next? How do we do this? What does this look like? Yeah. Force him to care. I'll do it one way or another. I'll ask him questions. I'll ask it random times. I'll take a dream and I'll interrogate the logistics of it into the ground. I'll do everything because if he doesn't care about money, then he doesn't care about our future. Yeah. Are you a project manager? She's a scrum master. You're a scrum master. She's like, okay, I got the logistics. I everyone did their five minute standup. Now we're going to gum up with action items so that we can all sync up for our scrum tomorrow.

We have a scrum board in our garage. All day. What do you guys use? Gira? Okay. Oh God. All day. We got. Listen, I love, I love a good project manager, but I've found that

it's difficult to apply some of the same principles in an intimate relationship. One thing I want to suggest to both of you, the more you talk, the less your partner will remember. Go ahead. Taylor, I want you to come to me with a plan about how you are going to use extra money that maybe we have available to us. I was waiting to see if you're going to fill the silence and you were about to triple yourself to get some some words out. I was like, all right. We're about to have a choking incident on this podcast. Nice work. Carry. How'd that feel? Tough. Why? It was hard to connect to a simple statement. Yeah.

Why? I think I'm used to having to constantly justify why I'm asking for it. In other words, sometimes for the most valuable things in life, what if instead of adding more, we subtract everything non-essential? What would that feel like when the two of you are talking about money? It would probably feel very straightforward and simple, which are things traits and things that I enjoy, especially in my job. Oh, you enjoy being clear and communicating with clarity? Yeah. Gosh, I sure would love to see that here. I think you enjoy being clear and communicating with clarity? Yeah. Gosh, I sure would love to see that here. I think you could do it, actually. Do you know why you're not doing it?

Look at my hand. What's that thing on my shoulder? The little whisperer. Taylor, any surprises hearing that? No. Okay. Let's talk about the person who whispers on your ear. What do they say to you about money?

It's terrifying. It's overwhelming. Keep going. Scary. Run away. Run away from it. Wow. Why?

Because if you run away, what will happen? Out of sight out of mind. It's not important. Uh-huh. Why is it not important? Because money is the redevelopment. Hmm. Okay. What are the only things you need? A home over my head. Money in the bank. Her. Yeah. That's what that voice says, right? We don't need all that fancy stuff. We just need a roof over our head.

No, no, right. Yeah, and some man a little bit of cash. Anything else? A golf course has been five miles. Okay. The very particular taste this whisperer has. Yeah. You should see him on the golf course. You should see him on the golf course. You should hear him on the golf course.

He's a jerk. This is pretty interesting. Carry any surprises? No. For you, Taylor, hearing carries whispers. No. Okay. That's good.

Do you both realize the impact that these whispers is having on your life? I didn't until now. There's got to be a way to get rid of that guy. Yeah. In fact, as one of your pieces of homework, I'm going to ask you to really articulate all the invisible scripts. Or the deep beliefs that your whisperer has taught you. Okay. All right. So, uh, carry on back to what you actually want Taylor to do in one sentence. Would you like to give it another crack? Feel free to take a second to think before you speak.

All right. Um, Taylor, I want you to be my equal partner in all important discussions in our life. I want you to contribute equally and share your own ideas for how to get there. I too want those. I want to become that equal partner and I know it's not going to be an overnight thing, but I'm. One million percent in this to become that person that I know that I can be that you know that I can be for our future. Okay. And I'm committed to that. I'm very committed to that. How do you take that, Carrie? I take it well. I love the words. And what is success going to be for you? It's not words. What is it going to be? Success is seeing. Is him coming here the very real example of the success to me, is him coming to me and

saying, hey, I've set up a direct deposit into this savings account that we've already discussed. And I am now contributing 10% of my salary towards that so that we can get to that. Like doing it almost all himself, getting the information he needs to do it from me is fine. But actually coming to me with it. I'm gonna share some candid feedback on that. Is that okay?

Mm-hmm. Okay, first of all, I think that's great. That's a great example of a behavior. Taylor could definitely go and set up autoay and have it coming in all that. In fact, I think you should tell her that's like a no brainer. But that takes like 30 seconds. How can your dream be that small? How can your dream be that small?

That your boyfriend potentially fiance that your dream is that he sets up an auto pay? Because the bigger dream that is actually there feels unattainable. Yeah. But the dream is not about the house. It's not about that, is it? What is the bigger dream? No, the bigger dream is a shared alignment and responsibility getting to whatever we want. Tyler, what are you hearing when you're say that? There's no better time than now than to

like I said, or to take back control of the financial aspect, take control of the financial aspect of my life, whatever that entails. What does it is correct? Exactly the way that I feel about my job, getting the job done, no matter what it takes and being dependable. I think being dependable is very important in this regard and trustworthy. and I think that's one thing that if I were I need to carry into my financial aspect of my life because I have it in other facets of my life and I know I can teach myself how to do that and becoming very independent in a financial aspect of a person but yet still dependently living with someone doing that and accomplishing things together is,

you know, I think that's a very attainable, obtainable and achievable goal, and it doesn't take a long time to do that. I hear what she's saying. Yeah. I want to take that to, I want to take that to the bank. No point in to this Yeah, as much as you care and have worked For where you are with your career and the job to get to that level that you're so proud of I want the exact same

Care and work towards our future and you deserve that and you deserve that deserve that one thousand percent All that. You deserve that 1000% All right, let's take a look at their numbers. Their assets are $711,000. Their investments, $37,000 savings, $15,500 and their debt, $650,000. All right, total net worth. Total net worth. 113,300. I think. Okay, 113,000. And you two are in your early 30s, right?

All right, so what do you think of that number? Carey first and Taylor. Total net worth. I think it is. The recent. Okay, Taylor. I mean, $113,000 looks amazing to me. That's just this, you know, the small sign in me. Okay. You guys still live in a small town? No, we live outside of Nashville.

Okay. All right. All right. Let's look at the income. What do we got? Let's start Taylor this time you tell me your combined gross monthly income. How much is it? 17,717 bucks. So you guys make that every month gross. So over the course of a year you make $212,000. What do you think about that? It's mind blowing. That's crazy. I've never done anything like that in my life. Is it? I'm going to be around to a plus for that. That's amazing. Early 30s outside Nashville making over $200,000 a year. For two homes. Yeah, that's amazing. So cool. All right, well done. That's great. Your net is about 15,000 a month. That's very nice. Your fixed costs, what numbers is carry? Your total fixed costs? 44%. 44%. What do you think about that number? I'm very happy with that. Okay. And Taylor, what do you think about that number?

Very happy with that too. All right, your investments, carry, tell me this number? 8%. All right. It's like a little low for someone who only spends 44% on fixed costs. We'll find out the rest. Oh, savings is 21%. Okay. And let's just finish it off and then we'll dig in. Your everything else your guilt-free spending is 26%. Who makes the 10,733 a year?

I do. That's you. OK. And Taylor, you make about 7,000 a month. OK. All right. Fine. All right. So you carry, seems like you have some remnants

over what used to happen in the past when you made way more than Taylor did. Have you adjusted this based on Taylor's new income? Certainly not the investments aspect. And we have spoken. He has made his own adjustments in the savings area, but we haven't liked. Okay, I got it. I got it. So you're actually investing. You personally are investing 14%.

Correct. But he's investing nothing, Taylor. But you're saving 30%. Okay, this is very typical of somebody who grew up like with their parents not talking about money. Taylor, when I say the word investing, what comes to mind for you? Putting money away for the future?

Well, how come you're investing zero this? Because I don't know. Go deeper with me. Investing means what? Is it good or bad? It's good. I think investing to main means just putting money in your savings account. But that's clearly not. Yeah.

Who taught you that? Mom and dad. But they didn't really talk about money at all, right? So what did they say instead? Did they ever use the word saving? You should save. Yeah, just make sure you got enough money in your savings. Make sure you're not going to enough money in your savings. That's a small town.

That's a real small town type of thinking. Yeah. And I don't mind it, because small town has a lot of great values associated with it, but when it comes to like asset allocation, no, we're not going to do that. I can actually see your values transferred from your family reflected on this spreadsheet. It actually tells me so much. Taylor, let me show you. So I'm looking at your investments, your own money, your investing zero dollars, okay? Zero.

So just to put a very blunt point on it, if the two of you split up, you have zero dollars that you have invested at least on a monthly basis with your new income. But I want to point this out to you, this is your family's influence. In some ways, very positive. You're actually saving a lot of money. You're saving 30% of your money. That is $1,800 a month in a long-term emergency fund.

So you can actually see the whisper from what? When you were seven years old and hearing, you're saving is good. And it is now reflected in your behavior today as a 30 something year old man. What do you think about that? I think the phrase, the apple doesn't didn't fall far from the tree. It was really important. I mean, it's very true. It's true. It's so true.

Now, again, we can honor our values. We can remember where we came from, but we can also design our own future, our own rich life. And I think that's what Kerry is really asking you. She's saying, look, step up. We can't just do the things your parents taught you. They grew up in a different time and they didn't teach you enough. Anyway, I need you to do this with me, right? Design this with me. And so my question carries like, what are the stakes? Like, because this is an expectation issue. I don't think you've been clear about that. You were clear though when you wrote your application to me, sometimes we're clearer with a third party than we are with our own partner. Not blaming you

that's totally normal, but you asked me here and so I want you to use my presence as much as possible to really get clear with yourselves and with your partner about what happens in this relationship. How are you going to move forward if you are so easily distracted by Taylor's conscious and unconscious avoidance tactics? I don't know. That's, that's the problem. Taylor, you see what just happened there? It's pretty quick, but pretty deep. Yeah. Okay.

We looked at your numbers. Taylor recognized that now is a very good time to start, that he's got some work to do to understand 401k's things like that. When you wrote me this application, I want you to really reconnect with where you were when you wrote that. And I want you to be honest with yourself about have you gotten your questions answered, have you gotten what you need? I don't feel like there is much of a plan beyond this call. I am excited that he maybe has more visibility or understanding of like, you know, what could, if we just do this, what could happen. Yeah. But I don't necessarily see a plan in place to continue that enthusiasm or ensure that

that continues and takes place. I agree. Taylor, do you agree? Um, I agree. Um, from her perspective, I'm absolutely agree. This is something I've started with my whole life. And there are times that I've, I've gotten better. And there are times that I've gotten worse. And it, it, to me, it really doesn't make sense. Well, let me put it this way, Taylor. Right now, the level that you're operating at is not enough

for carry. Whether you've gotten better or worse is irrelevant. The level you're performing at right now is not the level that Carrie needs in a partner. So, you have options. What are those options, Taylor? I think I have one option and that one option is to perform and better to be that equal. That's just a word, how? By any means necessary. How? Specifically, tell me, how are you going to get better? By talking to her more, coming to her more. Okay. Establishing an equal partnership in a way by communicating of what I need to do.

Be a her mouth, being fully present and attentive. Nothing else on my mind except for what is she saying and what I need to do to become that. I think it could be good for us could be to decide because I mentioned talking regularly so decide on maybe a regular time that we sit down and talk about if anything has changed with what we're working toward. I really like that because I'm very, all my jobs and everything I've ever done has been scheduled oriented. If I know I'm supposed to be somewhere at a certain time, I don't miss appointments.

Taylor, you know, you've been together for eight years. You clearly love carrying this obvious. Can I just say that I think if you had the ability to do this, you probably would have already done it. So what about getting a little help? I mean, that's what you're doing talking to me, which is awesome. I'm glad you're here. You're both showing a lot of candor and courage. But Taylor, I'm going to suggest that it probably be a really good idea. Maybe for the two of you, maybe individually, to get a little coaching, a little help,

maybe a therapist help you communicate more effectively. How do you receive that? You open to that? I want to do anything. Love that. So to me, that's a really clear action step, which is I'm going to find a couple's therapists for us to talk to you. That would be a big sign. Kerry, how would you receive that if he came to you and said,

I found somebody that likes us to go once a week, etc. I would be. Lord, that was something I tried to do three, four years ago before he was ready. Okay. Tell you ready now. Absolutely. All right. Carrie, would you like to respond right now? It looked like you got something to say.

Yeah, that would make me feel. Like he cares deeply about the importance or of our future. I'll be the one to do that. And if I don't know how to do something, I have all the resources necessary and accessible to me to figure that out. And if I don't, that's just a sound of laziness. You know, I really enjoyed talking to Carrie and Taylor. I'm not sure what's going to happen in the future. But that's not always the purpose of this podcast. The purpose is not always to give people

seven steps you must take tomorrow. That often takes a lifetime. A lot of times this podcast is simply so that people can feel listened to. That maybe they can make a connection between the way they grew up and the way they are behaving and feeling towards money today. I don't have a clear set of action items that I heard from Taylor. And I really do hope that he's able to make the changes that Kerry wants. Let's listen into their follow-ups. And if you're watching on YouTube,

you can actually see these on video. We just had our interview with Rameet a couple days ago. And he asked us to send a video answering two questions. The first being, what surprised me the most. And I think what that was was to meet so quickly catching on to the fact that, in his words, what we do is we communicate to each other's whispers,

instead of what we're actually saying to each other or responding to the little people in our shoulders, communicating in that way, which is not serving us. So that was really surprising with how quickly he was able to identify that and catch on to that. Otherwise, the specific number one realization that I've had about money is that it's not comfortable for everyone comfortable for everyone and that's okay and that there are ways to communicate directly and simply for those who are not comfortable. I think I've been trying to force conversations just to get something and dismay me realize that there is a better way to communicate and speak to my partners. Overall, it was an amazing experience and we thank you so much for me.

And now Taylor. For me, how's it going, man? Kevin, see you live from my tour of us. I just wanted to answer your two questions. And first, I wanted to start by letting you know how important our conversation was to me and how it's given me a lot of clarity in moving forward on becoming that better partner financially and becoming that better person individually in general. But, never want to surprise me the most is I was surprised at how easy it is to just look at your partner

and talk about important issues, especially when it comes to finances and when it comes to achieving things together. My number one specific realization I've had about money is it's not scary. It's not scary anymore. It's not It's not something I should be afraid of it should be something I'm excited about because money can not only help me in my life and in my future But it can it can help Generations to come after this so that you know, they're taking care of it Also, they're showing the light in a way that I have been showing the light So I just I want to thank you again so much.

Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate you both, Carrie and Taylor. Thank you for coming on. Please keep me updated. I would love to hear how your rich life progresses together as you go forward. And if you're listening and you enjoy the money psychology that we talk about today, make sure you sign up at iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. That's free. And every single Saturday, I send out a new podcast newsletter that you will not see anywhere else. So get on that newsletter so you can get this Saturday's money psychology podcast newsletter. Iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. podcast newsletter, iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Remeded Saiti. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you haven't read, I will teach you to be rich, my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.