I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 132. “We’re $520k in debt—and he hid it from me”

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

Cassandra, 40, and Aldo, 41, discovered Ramit on Netflix—which quickly led to Cassandra discovering the gruesome details of their debt. His goal was to shield her from stress. What he’s done instead is hide incalculable credit card balances, lose thousands on meme stocks, and so much more. This episode is brought to you by: Mint mobile | To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to https://mintmobile.com/ramit. Inside Tracker | Get 20% off by going to https://insidetracker.com/ramit. Methodology | Visit https://gomethodology.com/ramit and use code RAMIT for 10% off your first order of Methodology. LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at https://drinklmnt.com/RAMIT. Connect with Ramit Get the Podcast Newsletter and exclusive Q&A about the show Get Money Coaching with Ramit  Download the Conscious Spending Plan Get my New York Times best-selling book Get my no-numbers journal Other episodes Instagram Twitter YouTube Submit a question for the newsletter iwt.com/askramit If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

We were getting ready to start the next episode and I looked over to Aldo and I said, how much debt are we in because I literally have no idea when he wrote it all down. I almost fell off the chair like I was floored. I didn't know that everything basically was being charged on credit cards and loans and things. It's in, I guess, collections. We haven't been paying it for the last few months. And that scared the crap out of me. And I was like, why? I felt like a little bit of like a fall sense of security. You know, for me, was I opening as well? I mean, I should know better.

He's the financial guru. He works in finance. He knows all of this stuff. I have friends that go to him for financial advice. So never would I have ever thought we would be in this, in this predicament. So I was very shocked and I haven't really slept that great since all of this has come out. Here's the scenario. Cassandra and Aldo, 40 and 41 years old. They have two kids, 17 and 10 years old.

They're sitting on the couch looking for something to watch. They stumble across my Netflix show How to Get Rich. They start watching, surprised that they're really into this money show. And soon she leans over and goes, Hey, how much debt do we actually have? Although the money guy in the relationship tells her and she is shocked. That's where our story begins. And as you listen to today's conversation, I want you to be compassionate because so many of us think that we're rational robots when it comes to our money. But listening to Cassandra and Aldo is actually a reminder that most people really don't pay that close of attention to their money. You're going to find out what happens when they realize the costs of ignoring their finances.

Now before we dive into this episode, I want to let you know a little secret. For the last four weeks, I have been traveling the world only working one hour per week. Probably did not notice because while I was in India, Italy and Mexico, this podcast released a new episode every Tuesday. Social media posts went out, newsletters went out, everything ran as usual. This Saturday on my newsletter, I'm going to tell you how. I'm going to tell you how we decided to take this trip, how we paid for the tickets all across the world, how we chose the hotels, and how I had my business running

smoothly while I was gone. You can only get this email on our podcast newsletter this Saturday, December 2nd. You can sign up for free at iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. I love to take you behind the scenes of how I live my rich life. You can find that this Saturday iWT.com slash podcast newsletter. Now let's get to the episode. Yeah, we were so sitting on the couch looking for something to watch and it kind of gives you like a preview even though like when you, you know, you hover over it and you were

talking about owning a home and fan some costs. It's not what everyone makes it out to be and I was intrigued. I looked over to Aldo and I said, how much debt are we in? Because I literally have no idea. And he threw some random numbers out there and they were pretty high. I think I had an idea, but not anywhere near what they really are.

And I think I was like in shock. I right away got a pen and paper and I was like, I want to know everything. He proceeded to tell me about other loans, personal loans. And I vaguely knew about some of them. I thought they were, you know, in the past to consolidate that, you know, little credit cards that we had. There was a loan that was supposed to be paid off

and he mentioned this loan in the amount of $66,000 that is not paid off and not only is it not paid off, it's in, I guess, collections we haven't been paying it for the last few months. And that scared the crap out of me. And I was like, why? What happened? But when he wrote it all down, I almost fell off the chair. Like, I was floored. I didn't know that everything basically was being charged on credit cards and loans and things. I felt like a little bit of like a sort of false sense of security.

Okay, I'll do. What do you remember about that conversation? It was a tough conversation. I know in the past I've kind of broiled it up, but I know she gets really alarmed or panicked when, you know, any number that I put out there, you know, I've been trying to tell her for a couple of years that it has been challenging, but it would never really set down and I've never put enough effort to really sit her down and go over all the numbers. It was a daunting task.

I thought of a number that number I gave her was scary enough. And then when I started logging into all the accounts and finding everything out, it was twice as much. I should know better, right? So a big part of it is, it was just myself that, you know, I let it get to this point, this bad, this fast. I wasn't a very good man and he's always wanted to give me the thing, everything. I guess even the things that I don't ask for, for the most part,

he would do it. Like if it was a trip, we have a basement gym that I love to collect, like equipment, he would always make it happen. He would tell me we were tight from time to time. We'll be married almost 18 years down February. I let him take care of all that he wanted to. And I, I don't, I just kind of let him go all in and I never looked back all these years. Why is it so easy to avoid talking about money? Well, for the same reason we don't talk about our health, just like money with our health, we see clues everywhere. We feel aches and pains when we get up from sitting down. Maybe our clothes don't fit the same like they used to. Maybe we get tired faster. But instead

of taking an honest look at what we're eating and our activity levels, we actually can talk these very sophisticated convoluted stories about how our metabolism is changing and how this is what happens to everybody when you turn 40 and all kinds of other stuff. And the thing is everyone around us is doing the same so we genuinely believe it. It's easy to ignore these problems because they're not really acute. They're just little degree by degree. And that's the same with money where we have clues like a partner getting anxious when you bring up money or suddenly you see this $27 overdraft fee in your checking account.

You just can't figure out where all the money is going. You would think that a person would whip out a calculator and figure it out, but that's not how humans work. We are not rational robots. And the sooner you understand that, the sooner you will understand human behavior and the sooner you will be able to change your own behavior. Is it correct that I'll do you're the money person in the relationship? Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And what does that term mean to you? What does that role money person mean to you? Providing stability, paying the bills, setting the trips, putting the budget together. Keep a budget? No. Okay. Putting the budget on what we thought we were going to spend and then it always blew up.

So your money role is providing stability, planning out the trips. Does Cassandra come to you saying, I want to do this or I want to get this and then You evaluate that based on money or is your role to say yes I think I mostly say yes, and then try to figure out how I'm gonna make that yes happen Okay, have you ever said no because of money? Not that I can remember, no. Okay, well, you've only been married for 18 years, so. Yeah, me.

But there's a lot. No, no. To be honest, I've never thought money was ever, it was never in my mind about that. Like a zoom out, I never thought about money, even though we need money to do all these things. I would actually say that to like my friends and stuff, like they would talk about their finances and go and do their taxes. And I'm like, oh, I don't do any of that. You know, I don't know any anything about it. My husband takes care of it all. Like, was it essentially, I go to work, there's a paycheck and there's a black box of something

happens inside that black box, and like, I'm good. But basically, yeah, I'm pretty embarrassed to admit it, but I- It's very common. I was a black box. You were the black box. And I, you know, if something was off in my check, like you got paid like, you know, $2 less, but he would tell me, I never even left at my paycheck. But you know what, if like a car mechanic asked me,

hey, Rumi, what's your understanding of cars? I literally turn the key, it turns on, I fill up the gas once in a while, and like that's pretty much as far as it goes. Maybe get a oil change. That's it. Yeah. That's how a lot of people are with their money. It's just as long as it works, that's as far as we want to go. But the problem is, I think you realized when you asked Aldo, hey, can we go beneath the surface? How does this car actually work?

You discovered that, oh my gosh, it's not what I thought. Yeah, okay. Aldo, did you ever wish that Cassandra was more curious about money? Yes, yeah. Why? We've always done a lot of things together and I feel like this is the one thing that, you know, I just did all on my own. I didn't want to stress her out rather than,

you know, just figure out, take ownership over it and do what needs to be done. Can you think of an example where you did talk about money and Cassandra did get stressed out? I don't know. We wanted to do maybe more trips and I know we could have afford more than one. So, we're tight. What do you mean we're tight? We always feel tight. Again, we're tight. We can't do it. Did you end up doing it? Well, we took three trips this summer. It started with the Ruba in May. That was the last minute thing, and it was a good deal,

but it ended up costing twice as much. Right. Thank you for telling me it was a good deal, even though it wasn't. Go on, next. Then we had a destined Florida trip planned with my family, which we did. And then not even a month later, we went to Cabo with our friends. Where's the stress? I don't hear any stress from Cassandra about money.

Sounds great. Hey, let's go to Destin. Let's go to Cabo. Where's the stress? I don't know. No, you's go to Destin, let's go to Cabo, where's the stress? No, it seems, no. It seemed annoyed if I'd say, oh, you have to wait or use the credit card to pay for whatever. I think I would feel annoyed sometimes

because I'd feel like I work hard and so do you. And I'm like, how do we not have the money? And I just like naively thought, we have bills. We have mortgage. We have. So it's annoying to feel like you can't do little things when you work so hard. So it was an annoyed at you.

I just was annoyed at the fact that we should be able to do those things as I know, we do make pretty good money. What's happening here is basically what we do as children. When we're young, we imagine living in a palace or flying a fighter jet. And as adults, we actually do a similar thing with money. We literally have beliefs about how we are supposed to live. You know, my parents bought a house. So I

should be able to buy a house. That's the same size at the same age in the same city. Now, first of all, let me say, I want you to be able to buy a house. That's why I'm so vocal about wanting to build more housing and why I'm so politically active. But if you simply use your feelings about your parent situation 40 years ago, and you blindly make the biggest purchase of your life without running the numbers, well, then you're doing the same thing as the kid who says, I want to be a fighter jet pilot. You know, we do the same thing with relationships. I knew a guy who was in a relationship with a great woman, and he eventually broke up

with her. And some of my friends asked him why, and he said, I never saw myself marrying someone like her. He was referring to her religion. Now, don't roll your eyes. We all have a certain concept of how we expect our life to turn out. I expected to be educated. I expected to have money and flexibility to live wherever I wanted.

I expected that from a very young age. Now, if I didn't have money, honestly, I would find that incredibly difficult to accept. I might even ignore the details of my finances and spend as if my vision was true because I would have imagined and even believed it for decades. So when you hear somebody break up with a great partner because their religion isn't what they imagined. I mean, I'm not gonna tell you not to judge them,

I judged, but I can also understand how these deeply held stories affect our behavior, even irrationally so. So today, when you hear them say they're stressed and Cassandra says she's annoyed because they make money and they should be able to spend, what's really happening is that their vision of life is not aligned with reality.

And in Cassandra and Aldo's case, they've simply chosen to ignore reality and instead spend, spend, spend. Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. Let me read off a few numbers and see if you can tell what they are. $270, $150, $157, $120, and $141. That is how much the last five couples I've spoken to

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they have a sub-savings account where they plan for it months in advance. We wanna do that with money, and we wanna do that with other parts of our rich life, our relationships. Let's strengthen it before there's a problem. For health, we want to work on it before there's a problem. And that's something you can do with today's episode sponsor, Inside Tracker. Inside Tracker can help you optimize your health so that you live healthier longer.

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slash RemiTH to get the deal that's InsideTracker.com slash RemiTH, R-A-M-I-T. Now back to the show. You watch the show, Cassandra, you finally get very curious. You start asking questions and that night all the numbers come out and you are feeling what? Well, obviously shocked. I wasn't expecting it, but I also felt very hurt. I also knew that I can't just say, oh, this is all his fault. I have to take my part in it. I also knew that I can't just like, you know, say, oh, this is all his fault. I have to take my part in it. I just kind of sat back and let him deal with everything.

And my thing was always like, oh, you know, he's the financial guru. He works in finance. He knows all of this stuff. I have friends that go to him for financial advice. So never would I have ever thought we would be in this in this predicament. So I was very shocked and I haven't really slept that great since since all of this has you know it's been hard. But yeah I felt hurt. I felt like I've been living a life that maybe I should I shouldn't have been living.

I think another big thing that made me feel hurt was I kind of left this part out. But what's my fault too is I don't check my paycheck. But apparently my check was being garnished. I get paid by weekly and it was $380 that was coming out of my paycheck. I had no idea for what or taxes that we had owed. Oh, wait, they're garnishing your paycheck for back taxes that you owe. All right, that's not good. No, and it's completed now. Actually actually my last paycheck was the last one and I asked him and he's like he just casually says oh That's that's the money we owe for taxes and I'm like What what do you mean?

Do you wish that he had brought up? Eyes financial challenges many years ago. I wish he would have told me the severity of it. Yes I wish he would have told me the severity of it. Yes. Cassandra, it's interesting to me, because you go, I know we had debt, but I didn't realize the severity of it. What kind of debt did you think that you had? Well, obviously the mortgage. And I knew we had some credit cards,

because he would give me credit cards to use too. More often than not, those credit cards were almost to the max. Whether it was me and him or, you know, or if I needed stuff for the kids or something, he would give me a credit card and I never thought twice. He would tell me it was for the rewards or the points or whatever you get. Aldo, it was for the points. He always told me that and I was like, okay, well, yeah, what do I know? I'm just need to get this, I need to go to the shopper. Have you heard me absolutely roast these people who come on and talk about points when

they're in severe credit card debt? Have you heard me? Yes. Are you afraid it's about to happen? Probably. It is. It's about to happen. Listen up, you credit card point seeking freaks. If you have credit card debt,

forget about your f***ing points. Your points are worth one cent. And you're adding debt to the tune of 26.99%. Do you understand how fast that compounds? Do you understand how many years it will take you to pay that off? Of course you don't. You just want an extra 25,000 points

so you can get a free night at a Marriott property that would otherwise cost you $134. What am I even doing on this stupid podcast? Did you have any concern when you would go on trips or renovate or things like that, knowing that you had credit card debt? Like how did you think about those purchases? I definitely had concerns.

We could start with the rental. Renault was something that we talked about for, since we bought the house, we had these dreams and visions already, when we knew eventually we would get to it. Who is the first person out of the two of you to say this exact line? Well, it's an investment, so it's going to pay for itself. I voted by that. I'll do it. You didn't say it word for word, but you made, oh, you know, I'm gonna help the whole. Yeah. So it's free.

Here's the problem. Okay, tell me. He, he happened to be messing around with stocks. Now, I don't know anything about stocks, all this stuff. I don't really call it day trading. I don't even know. This is a joke.

I didn't even know. No, this gets better. So he told me that he made a lot of money in the stocks and it could afford us the rental. But that we needed to take a loan out to like buy all the materials upfront front and that his stocks that he was making money on that we're going to be big. We're going to pay off this loan. Okay. So I'm like, okay, yeah, this is amazing. We can renovate our house.

Free money. A lot of things happened during the rental. Obviously, you budget, well, we didn't, you know, we had a number of mine. It was nowhere near that. And then I don't even know, babe, what was the number? I don't think 25. So we had saved 30. We weren't going to have enough because our pool collect collapsed when you were going to need a new pool. So that's why I applied for a loan. And I invested half of it.

So when I invested that half, I should have taken that. So I put 30,000 to work. I made 189,000. Okay. And I didn't take it out. Even though Cass told me to take it out. And this is me not knowing anything about these numbers. And I think he would come to me because he was obsessed on his phone looking at these these stocks. And he would say, oh, I should take it out. Right. Should I take it out? I'm like, yes, just take it out. Like, I don't trust it. Like, it's volatile. Obviously, like, and he didn't take it out. So that's the $66,000 loan that now we have in collections that terrifies me. Hold on. Let me get these numbers right. You budgeted 25k for renovation. You had 30k saved up, so you had a little bit of buffer.

What happened then? The pool collapsed. The pool collapsed. You had to keep a loan. That's another 20k. 20k, so then you took 30k and put it in the market, which really was in an individual day trader stock. A meme stock.

It went up to 189,000. Wow, that's a good return. You didn't pull it out. And then how much did it end up at the end? Tell us all. So I ended up taking out 50 and then I lost the rest. I still have them. It's worth It's worth three, five grand, maybe. Not even. Okay. So I'm just leaving it there and it is what it is. Maybe I'll go to the moon another day. Maybe.

Maybe. Doubt it. Okay. And the renovation, how much is that in a costing total? So the kitchen, so we ended up doing the kitchen, the living room and the dining room. So all that came out to probably about 70. And then the pool was 20. And the pavers was 13.5.

Okay, so you budgeted 25 and it was like 105,000. I have a few things I'd like to talk about. What does it take for you guys to start listening to what I've been saying for the last 20 years? Do I need to bring on more guests to show you how essentially nobody in America runs the numbers on their house? Do I need to bring up more statistics showing you that right now as of currently airing this episode, it is cheaper to rent than to own in almost every city in America.

Do I need to keep posting on Twitter and roasting these anonymous accounts who call me stupid and old-fashioned and say renting is throwing money away? You know what? No, I don't. And for the roughly 325 million Americans who think it's their God-given right to renovate their house, never realizing that even 30 years ago renovations were incredibly rare and the only reason you think everybody renovates is that you watch HGTV and in a fit of pluralistic ignorance, you think everyone else renovates their house while in debt, then good luck. Oh, and by the way, when you renovate your house, you almost never make money on the renovations. I'm now done with my commentary on this topic.

I feel stupid. I just never thought that he would do something like that. Why? Because he's the finance guy, right? He works in finance. He's been in the finance field as long as I've been in healthcare, you know, 20 years. Sandra, what are you doing in healthcare? I'm a nurse and oncology nurse.

So like, let's say that somebody from outside the healthcare field came to you and they were like, Cassandra, I fractured my toe and I need to know what metatarsal therapy I should use for this toe. Would you know what to tell them? Not really, but it's healthcare. Yeah, but that's like, you need an ortho on. Yeah, it's totally unrelated. Now, although what part of finance are you in this vast field of finance? I pretty much

refer people with solutions that will work for their retirement or the story and accounts or college accounts. So I don't do the management of it. I just put them into platform that would do that. You see my point? Yeah. I can also understand Cassandra why. You were like, he's the money guy in our relationship. He's in finance.

So like, he's got it under control. But let me ask you this. Like, were you ever concerned? Because we've all heard stories about, you know, somebody's were you ever concerned? Because we've all heard stories about, you know, somebody's husband or wife dies. In our parents' generation, often it was the husband managing the money, right?

Husband dies. Wife is left, grieving widow, totally defenseless. Did this ever come up for you, Cassandra? Concern about that? Yes, it has my own life and my parents. My parents are still together. They're very happy right now, but when I was about 17, 18, they were going through the

worse. And I remember my mom saying, I don't even know how to write a check. I don't know what bills we have. I don't know. I don't know if I could survive without your check. I don't know what bills we have. I don't know. I don't know if I could survive without your father. I don't know. And I remember thinking, oh my god, like, my dad sat me down when I was old enough to, when I got my first job and old enough to say for my first car,

and he sat me down and talked to me about these things, about bills, about credit cards. And it felt so wrong to me that my mom didn't even know what a check was, how to balance a checkbook, how to do anything in regards to money. So you would think that knowing that and the feeling that I got from that, I would take that into my adulthood and not wanna go that route and be involved, but I don't know, I guess. Although, why do you think that Cassandra

went through that very formative experience and yet chose to almost replicate that in your relationship. What's your take? I think I came into the picture when we got together and bought our first house. I started taking care of all the bills. She was in nursing school. So again, I didn't want to give her that stress. So I just took on the job of just, you know, doing it all. Where's this word stress? Tell me about your family, although. My family? Yeah. What do you remember about money growing up as a kid? Oh, that was stressful. With my parents, I mean, they, you know, they came from Peru.

Okay. And I remember we, would live with one of my uncles in a two bedroom apartment for maybe six months that we got there. I never asked for anything because they were always stressing how we're going to pay the rent and electric. They say that out loud. Yeah, I would always hear them, are you about it? My dad is not great with money.

He's always just spending and I always would see my mom just fight with him because she was more, I guess, on top of it than he was. And then I remember he got fired from his moving company. Something happened. I would never really knew what happened, but he was let go from there. So he started working with one of my uncles that had a cleaning company. And they started their own cleaning business.

And it took off. I never saw them argue as much. In two, you know, things I guess low down, they couldn't keep up with it. And that's where I would see them argue a lot. What did they say? And I could say in Spanish, but it probably won't get much out of it,

but the whole purchase of it was that my dad was just spending without knowing where it's coming from. He would bounce checks all the time. Remember seeing a statement, they had like $3,200 in overdraft fees. Wow. Just on overdraft, that's money gone. And my mom would just always be in the East

and they had a little office in the basement and just so angry. Oh, what time? How do you start? So how do you start? That's a check, is it? So it's always something like that. So angry. How do you say that? How do you know that? It's always something like that. I think a lot of Spanish speakers listening are going to...

They're going to identify with that. Yeah, yeah. But my dad is kind of retired. My brother took over the cleaning business. He made it his own. When my parents bought the house, they had devoted with my mom and my brother. So when she passed my brother became the sole owner, but has let my dad stay there, you know, rent-free, because I guess that was the agreement. They had financially a ton of time, you know, we're all trying to help me and my sister and my brother.

You'll occasionally send money to your dad, things like that. Yeah, yeah, okay. You know, that's what I remember, you know, finance, really. How did money feel as a kid? What was the word you used to describe it? That's a kid, which is didn't have it.

Yeah, it's sometimes, right? But then sometimes not. Yeah, it's funny because I've never really asked my parents for anything because I know how stressed they were. I never really cared to go by expensive things. I do remember once one pair of sneakers, like a Nike Air something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I knew they, you know, they can't afford that. It was, I don't know, hundred and something dollars.

I don't remember ever asking them that I want something. You know, it's just, you just got it. How about now when your wife asks you for something, how do you react to that? Which is, oh yeah, we could do it. Yeah. Is there any connection here? Yes.

Okay. I don't think I need to belabor the point. Aldo has seen money as a source of stress for literally decades. Now he doesn't talk about money with his wife because he wants to protect her from the stress. In a way, it's kind of a loving gesture by Aldo to take it all on himself,

but probably the wrong approach, because ironically by not talking about money, he's caused even more stress. We'll be right back. You've all heard me ask people, what's your rich life? And then they go, I wanna do what I want, when I want. And I encourage them to think bigger. What if you had a personal trainer three times a week? What if you had someone clean your place every week? What if you had delicious food,

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Now back to Cassandra and Aldo. This idea of stress is really interesting. Aldo, from what I hear, money was stressful in your family. And now, as a grown man, you've taken on the role of protecting Cassandra from the stress of money. That's pretty spot on. How do you do that? Give me a couple of examples of how you protect, shield Cassandra from the stress of money. I see where you're going. It's really not because now at the end of the day, you know, we're in that I

Thought I was protecting but I was just delaying that You know, and now it's a lot worse than That I brought it up two years ago and said you know, maybe we can't do that kitchen yet or Well, the pool we had because that was dangerous. Well, I could think of a recent instance where you, it was the Cabo trip. You know, good friends of ours were going to celebrate their daughters, sweet 16 and they had come to our daughter's sweet 16. We took a vacation to Dominican Republic the summer before that.

And we both- Is this what people are doing at 16 now? Damn, I'm out of touch. I know. Okay. Good to know. So bad, you know, we get seven days versus like one big, you know, wedding party, basically. So we both felt really bad and wanted to say yes because you know, really,

you know, these are good friends of ours. And I remember being stressed about it because I was like, we just took like, we're going to be taking, well, Aruba wasn't planned. That was like a last time. I knew Destin was in July and this Cabo trip was in August. You know, I'm like, I don't think we could do this. Oh, when I get my bonus, we'll just pay this off. So we took that trip and that trip, you know, it was expensive and... How much?

I'm so fine now, it's all in a credit card. How much was it? $7,000. It was supposed to be $3,500. Yeah, and that's what he came to me. He's like, oh, the most is like $4,000. We did. Aruba was in planned.

It was what I thought was a great deal. And we ended up spending twice as much. It kind of seems to be a recurring theme. We thought it was going to be $25,000, $105,000. Thought it was going to be $3,500, 105k, that's going to be 3500, 7k, probably 9k, if you factor in everything. There's phantom cross. Yeah, they really get you. Here's what I'm noticing. Although I think that you have an identity that you have unconsciously and consciously constructed of your provider. You said that to me

explicitly. That's very common. You are the protector against stress, money stress, so you absorb it all yourself. And when you come around and say, yes, yes, we can do this renovation. Yes, we can go on this trip. You become the... Here. What was that, Cassandra? Hero. Yeah, the hero. Cassandra, do you think that that's true? I do, yeah.

That's kind of interesting, isn't it, Cassandra, that the person who you thought was the money expert might actually not be as skilled as you thought? Very interesting. I mean, there's some valiant things to it, being a protector, being a provider, being a hero. Those are all positive words. So where has it gone wrong? So far, you're going on a lot of vacations.

You got a nice house What can't you do? Can't we have we got on these vacations and we've got nice things But they're all on credit cards and loans and so what So I can't keep getting them can't do it. We can't do it anymore You know in many relationships, the hero when it comes to money is the person who says yes. They always figure out a way to let you get what you want. They never say no, but in my view,

the real hero is one who builds a partnership with their spouse to talk about money regularly, and they truly include their spouse in decision-making. If they're a parent, they talk about money regularly, they truly include their spouse in decision making. If they're a parent, they talk about money regularly, positively, proactively. They teach their kids how to think about money. They teach them what the family thinks is important to spend money on. And they set boundaries. To me, that's a real financial hero. Let's take a look at their numbers. Assets, 703,000, investments, 115,000, savings, 1000, debt, 520,000, for a total net worth of $300,000.

So, combined monthly is 13,784. All right. So, read that out. How much do you make per year total? 165,000, 408. Did you know that? Yes, but that doesn't count my commission. Well, how much is that?

This year is 70,000. 70,000? Yeah. Okay. I think it's actually more. It's going to end up, my salary is going to end up at 160 this year, total. What the hell? How much is the bonus?

You said 70,000? Quarterly, it varies. So my first quarter was 40. My second quarter was 25. My third one was 31. And this one I just got was 32 You didn't just get right you're getting it. I'm getting it in November, but the number is just ended 40 plus 25 plus

62 is 127,000 yeah, all right fine. I'm adding it Just on the side that's positive really positive. We can make some serious changes with this kind of income Your investments are 115k. What is that investments? Consistive for one case. Okay. What else? That's it. How about you putting in your 401k 10% each. Yeah. So what's up with the debt?

It's $2,482 per month. It's a lot. Personal loans and credit cards. So there's one that's $8,127,000. There's another one that's 8,127 so 8,000. There's another one that's 16,000. And these are personal. The Apple loan is another 16,000 at 13% today. See that one? Both of those are 13% the 16,000. And then there's his student loan about 14,000 at 7%. Oh yeah, the mortgage. Yeah, but that's not everything

Okay, so we have a capital one credit card. He has an American Express business card Bank of America credit card Another American Express card 1700 This one gets me. It's capital one. It's 13 it's about 14,000 at 29.99 percent We're still paying off my daughters and Cassie's phone

And then we have macy's which is 6200 at 31.74 percent What what what what do you buy for $6,400 at Macy's? We do a lot of Christmas shopping there. If the kids need clothes or whatever, we usually go there for gifts. Did anybody teach either of you had to how interest works with credit cards? Yeah, my dad sent me down and talked to me about it.

So I know. Aldo, what about you? Yes, yes, I do know it very well. But that's good. I'm glad. I didn't know. I mean, like, that's one of the credit cards that he would give me. That one is under your name, right? And he would give me that whenever I needed like something. You had a card for it. Yeah, but it wasn't. You gave that to me. How did I just ask? For an explanation of your understanding of interest and now you're both like pointing the finger at each other

The numbers terrify me if I'm honest you're currently spending 94% of your take home pay on fixed costs Which is mostly the debt payments, right, and the mortgage. Well, let's just zero out the debt and see what happens, shall we? I'm going to turn this into zero just to see, it takes you down to 62. That's nice. There's going to be this business loan that's going to come up where we're going to have to either settle or start paying it again. And that's an additional thousand a month to our debt expenses.

What is that business loan? It was a business loan that we took out, we like took out two years ago in a business that I had that closed down. Well, I took out two years ago in a business that I had that closed down. Can you settle? No, not yet. We have a year to settle because I missed three payments. They sued for the entire thing.

So that's, you know, that's the, like, it's the big debt that we're, we're not going to be able to make it unless we can pay as much debt as we can in the next year. Well, that's what you have to do. So you're right. Right now, the over-overage is almost all debt. And if we look at the debt, which we've now written down here, we have a bunch of personal loans, they have student loans,

now we're still missing some cards. Yeah, I finished. Oh, you didn't finish. Oh my God. Sorry, I got, okay. What else besides Macy? Yeah, Macy's scared you. What else?

Island Federal 2300, at 12.99, care credit, and then the last one is city credit card, which is about 10,000 at 29.99. All right, what's the total amount of all those loans added up? 70, maybe. No, it was. It was 90. 110,882.

Does that include your mortgage? No. I'll put it back up on the screen. Oh, the $66,000 from the loan that we're not paying. And then it's 2500 that's in collections for JC pennies. What did you shop there in 1998 last time? JC penny. Oh my god. My mom took me there and I was in sixth grade. I've never gone in that store. This is amazing. Is it still around?

No, they went bankrupt. So he tells me, oh, they forget about it. Don't worry about it. And I got a phone call the other day. I don't believe they just forget about it. They just sell their debt. All right, so 60. Oh, yeah, we just forgot about $66,000 in debt.

We forgot about that one. Okay. And. It's my 500 JC Fennell. I'm going to get a phone call. about it, they just sell their debt. All right, so 60, oh yeah, we just forgot about $66,000 in debt. We forgot about that one. Okay. And. And. And then I think it was 800 and like city MD bills. That's that should be around right one 10. Okay, that's about right. She have 110,000 in debt. No, no, it's more than that. The one thing is without that loan. Can't be paid.

There's no way. Can we all agree that the fact that you don't even know within $20,000, how much debt you owe is a problem? Whether it's $120,000 or $200,000, doesn't change the fact that we need to come up with a plan for it. Would you agree? Yeah.

Yes. All right, should I just tell you what's going to happen here? Yeah. Cause I'm just going to like, let's just cut to the chase. Stop using your credit cards. Like none. End it. No more charging stuff.

What do you think of me saying that? I'm getting very interesting looks on both of your faces. I'm totally on board for that. Yeah. There's something else that like, I mean, guess, it's a good and a bad thing, but we last month, I don't know if this is a good idea. This is before we knew that we were going to get to speak to you, we took 10, 13,000 out of my 401k, right?

Why did you do this? No, pay off. 50,000. To pay off two big credit cards. You took a loan out of your four against your 401k. You took a early withdrawal? Yeah. Because we weren't going to be able to make it to pay off our debts and not put anything

on cards. What happens when you take a loan from your 401k or withdrawal from your 401k? What happens? Well, the withdrawal costs us a lot because there's a penalty and there's interest. With the loan, we're paying ourselves back, but not at the rate of whatever the market's growing. Yeah, it's a fixed rate. But the reason we were trying to pay off more debt is to help improve the credit and apply for a home equity line to put all the debt into one.

You know, I'm very, I'm always weary of quick fixes, which is again, why I didn't really want to pull out from my 401k, like, you know, hurt me to do that, but I, you know, I thought maybe it would be faster, or I, you know, the way I'll put it, like it makes sense. That was a bit of a Freudian slip, wasn't it? I know. Sorry. I'm not for a get rich quick stuff,

but I thought this would be faster. This is one of my favorite categories of responses in personal finance. When someone says, I know we're not supposed to time the market, but, and then whatever they say after the word but is gonna be 100% market timing. Here in Cassandra's case, she says, I'm wary of quick fixes, but,

here's this quick trick to get us out of debt faster. Let's take a quick pause to hear from our sponsors. Back to the episode. The real value is in you two understanding what series of decisions got you into roughly $150 to $200 of thousand of debt. What do you think it was? $1,000 of debt. What do you think it was?

Just going, yeah, carelessness, not making enough money. And always wanting to get the kids, you know, everything they want, everything that they need. Why? Why do you want to get them everything they want and need? That's apparent. You don't want them to you don't not have new clothes for the school, new sneakers, or you know, in their respective, you know, electronics things. It's just a lot of nonsense that we've been... Yeah, we're like making memories with them and doing the trips and taking them out.

Okay, these kids have jobs. The other daughter just got her first job. Yeah, okay. What's she making? Minimal weight. Fifteen an hour. Yeah, she's saving for a car. That's not bad. 15 and hour, great place to start.

I don't mind that. Teacher some saving skills, but you yourself are gonna be talking about with your family. That's awesome. It's actually a very formative moment. What do you think, if I were to ask your oldest 17 year old,

what have you learned about money from your parents? What would she tell me? What if you learned about money from your parents? What would she tell me? Probably to save. Keep telling her to save her money and not spend it. Hold on, hold on. I got to pull this up real quick. What's that number right there in your savings?

1,000. She has more than that. Your daughter has more than you in savings? Yes. And you to earn over $200,000 per year. What else would she tell me she's learned about money from her parents? She's had a bank account. So she's 13. So she budget, she's never over drawing. I feel like we could learn more from her because she's even just little babysitting jobs here and there, she puts it away.

I'll remember how we spent some time talking about your family growing up. And what kind of influence that had, you know, the word stress coming up and things like that. Let's fast forward 10, 15 years in your daughter's future. Okay, Cassandra, you too, right? 10, 15 years in your daughter's future. Okay, Cassandra, you too, right? 10, 15 years in your daughter's future. Maybe she's in a serious relationship.

Money is starting to come up. What is she flashing back to that she learned about money from her parents? I feel like it's a big part of our lives. We talk about it. I mean, not just now, even before. Like, I feel like if she would have asked for things, I mean, I'm guilty. My first thing is, oh, we don't have the money for that. I don't know. I don't know if I read it somewhere that it wasn't you know a good thing to Have your kids think that you know, we're not financially stable But we say we don't have this or we don't have money for that. Are you financially stable?

No, no, no, I don't think so I'm not saying you have to tell your kids every little detail, but there's also the going the complete opposite direction and saying, well, we have unlimited money. There's a magic box and all you have to do is ask. And if you want a car, vacation, this, that, clothes, you might have to ask twice. We might tell you we don't have the money, but if you ask three times, it's always a yes.

The dynamics, I think, I don't even know your daughter. I've never spoken to her, but I think if she comes on my podcast in 20 years, I think what she would tell me would be, I observed that my mom didn't really log into the accounts, and she earned money and really log into the accounts. And she earned money and it went into the family account. And if she ever wanted anything, she asked that. And dad always said yes.

And therefore, what do you think her conclusion from that would be? And therefore, I'll just... She'll fall in the same pattern. Why would I want to deal with it later? Correct. Not really what we want to teach our kids. I want her to say that if I don't, well, I want her to say that I've invested some

of my money. Nice. And then I would want her to say that if I don't have the means for it, I'm not gonna spend it unless, I have budgeted and saved for it. Love it. It might be. Alda, what about you?

Yeah, I wanted to learn to use money properly so she can enjoy her life, get whatever she wants knowing that she could do it, you know, have that confidence of knowing what to do, right? What if she can't get it? What if she can't afford it? Then she shouldn't get it or work hard to get it. Not throwing a credit card. Really? Tell me about that.

Have you ever told her that? No, I don't think I have. It's kind of hard for parents to be like, don't put it on a credit card when you have like $50,000 of credit card debt. Yeah, I think that's probably why I didn't. Never brought it up. Every parent has a little bit of, do as I say, not as I do, but there's a limit where even you're like, look, I can't even be as you imagine.

Yeah. It's like, what are we going to say? Yeah. Okay. And what's up with your college? I mean, your daughter's college. Is she going to college? She wants to, yeah. We're talking about community college.

For the first two years and then she would want to make a decision where she would go from there. Have you two made any commitments about funding? Oh, we feel about that. I mean, it's something we wanted to do with just the planet right. That's the unfortunate reality. I am glad I have to say that, you know, you haven't told her, hey, I will pay for everything. I'm really glad that you seem to have had some discussions about community college. I think there's a lot of amazing options. And listen, I hope that after a couple of years, if you were to be extremely aggressive about your payments, you might be in a better position to at least

offer a little bit of help. Or right now, it will be very difficult to do that. Any reactions to that Cassandra? It's hard. I never thought that I would be like in this position where I can help her. So it's hard to hear. Okay. When I first saw all of this, I told Al, though, I said, I don't see us getting out of this anytime soon. And he has this like, you know, he always tries to like make it look better.

And he's like, no, we could do this in two. I don't see it being more than two, three years. And I'm like, I'm thinking more like 10 years. Like I don't see how we can get out of this. Well, the good news is we can fix it. We can fix some of the personal loans, the credit card loans, all these loans, and then we can start off at least feeling a bit more breathing room to create a new chapter with your money. I think that would feel a lot better, don't you think? Yes.

Yes. And you're going to show her what you are doing about it so that she can see, oh my gosh, my parents are really having to change their lifestyle, but they're doing it. It's also a very positive message. And I think that's the kind of message that she would be lucky to have 10, 15 years from now. Okay. Let's talk about what you can do. Two things that occurred to me. Number one, I don't hear you talking about dramatically cutting back on expenses, which I'd like to talk about. But two, you know, you have these credit cards

that you took the 401k withdrawal for. What about all these bonuses that are coming your way every quarter? What about using that money? No, that's the plan. I'm gonna get 17,000 after all taxes in November. And we wanted to take two cards off in November. Where's the $127,000?

I'll do that. You're making this year in bonuses. We spent, I mean, the end of the year already. So we've, we've used it up. I would pay off cards and reuse them for trips or expenses. It's just been a cycle. If I were sitting in your situation, every additional bit of income that I got would be split between debt and building up a savings account. Like I would make a black and white rule.

That'll be rule number one. And we can talk about what percentage that can be, but if it were me, it would be something like 85% debt, 15% savings. That's what I would do, number one. Number two, rule would be no more spending on credit cards at all. Put the credit cards, lock them away, no more using them. All they are is one directional. You're paying them off as quickly as possible. And the minute they get paid off, personally, I would close the accounts. And then black and white rule number three is I would become extremely honest about where

we are going to spend our discretionary money because I think the two of you spend a lot more than you realize, clothes, trips, etc. All that money that you have spent, I would take it going forward and as much as possible, I would direct it towards the credit cards and the savings. Simple, three rules. What do you think? I agree. I wanted to close credit cards. I told them. I think I would hurt your credit for the future. What do you, like what though? Tell me what concerns you about that? Our plan was to improve credit so we can get the home equity line and then pay everything off.

And at that point, we could close everything and just have one big loan with a lower rate and try to tackle just that one loan with everything we can put into it. What could go wrong with that plan? If we don't pay it, it was the house. Then we would have to sell the house.

You'd fall back into debt if you didn't close all the cards off. Well, no, we would have to close the cards. The plan was to close them and just put it all in the home equity. But yes, I mean, there is the risk if we can make the payment and it's, you know, it's a risk we're taking that we could, we would be forced to sell the house to pay of that, that that. Would your past spending suggest that this would be a successful way to go or not? The past, no. But I think both of us being hyper aware on our expenses, I think we'll give us a chance to lower our minimums from 2400 to 1,000, and I'll put that additional 1,400

to pay down the principal. It's possible. It's possible. In the best scenario, it could work. But you don't think we can make it work? I think that I look at people's spending behavior and it tells me the best predictor of their future behavior is what they currently do today.

Today I see debt upon debt upon debt. A home equity line seems essentially like another get rich quick opportunity. It's yet another thing that's going to come down from heaven and save us. And I don't love it. In almost all cases where I speak to people in severe debt, they look for a magic bullet. The first thing they say to me always is we just need to earn more money. And then the second thing they talk about is some type of credit card game, usually either consolidation or balance transfers. Now those can be useful tools, but candidly, that's just

wishful thinking for most people in these situations. People in severe debt will talk about every other option except actually changing their spending and making an automatic debt payoff plan. This is literally in chapter one of my book. If you are listening to this or you're watching this on YouTube and you're in a lot of debt. The one message I want you to hear today is that there is freedom in going through the fire. That means if you want to truly pay off your debt, there are no gimmicks and there are no tricks. You have to take a hard look in the mirror.

You have to ask yourself what decisions brought you here and then you have to change your entire relationship with money and debt. It will be hard, but you can learn this skill and you can get stronger. And I know having worked with many people who were in debt and have paid it off that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. In this case, if you were to plug in all of your debt into a debt payoff calculator, I'm going to encourage you to do that. And what you can do is you can start to play with, first off,

which should you pay off first? If you're the most sophisticated, you would pay off the one with the highest interest rate first. You can also see how much would it help you to pay off an extra $100 a month, an extra $250 with the balances you have an extra $250 a month would make a massive, massive change. Have you run a calculation like that before? $250 a month would make a massive, massive change. Have you run a calculation like that before? No, but we were looking at doing

the snowball effect and the avalanche one. Yep. So the snowball and the smallest one and try to focus on that and we were doing the minimums on everything else. And when I get my bonus, pay off the one with the highest interest. Okay, let's take a look. All right, you can pay off your debts in five years

if you pay off $3,200 per month. I keep in mind that's more than you're paying, but actually somewhat reasonable. Do you know why? Why is it reasonable to be able to pay off 3,200, said a 2,500 that you're currently paying off? Because of my bonuses? Yep. And any reduced spending. Travel all the groceries, all the stuff, hello fresh that you used to spend. This is five years of aggressive debt payments. It shows that you'll pay 41% in interest alone.

percent in interest alone, totally wasted money. It's $80,000 of interest you're going to pay, just from not looking at money. It's so crazy. Money thrown away. I mean, that's why we completely stop using credit cards and change our mindset to pay as much as we can. Without anything, we have additional. Yeah. So, go ahead.

If you ran the same numbers at, say, 10% with the home equity, you still wouldn't like that idea? No. I think we could get out faster. It's like swapping money around, isn't it? My concern is that that number seems very high a month, and I feel like it would leave us with nothing left to do anything at all. I know my habits aren't going to be anywhere near what they've been, but I also know that

there's holidays and there's things that come up and you know, just the thought of not being able to take the kids away out like on one vacation. Like I'm just nervous that there's not going to be any leftover for living, you know, I don't wanna be miserable either the next five years. Because you think we'll fall back in the same pattern? Yeah. I think you'll lose your house. And I think you'll find a new way to get into debt.

I wanna recap why I am being so direct with Cassandra and Aldo in this very moment in this conversation. Because in their history, they have a failed meme stock. They have loans and credit cards that have gone to collections. They have garnished wages for back taxes. Credit card debt we couldn't even calculate out of control spending and a 401k withdrawal, not to mention many other huge red flags.

Recall that they are $38.42, two kids, $540,000 in debt, and they make about $165,000 a year. But as you just heard, they were not satisfied when they found out that to pay off their debt, it would take them over five years. So I gave them another option, a more extreme option. I suggested that they take 80% of their bonuses So I gave them another option a more extreme option. I

Suggested that they take 80% of their bonuses and put it towards debt But I also pointed out what it would mean for them. It would severely limit their day-to-day spending I Suggested that they commit to no vacations for two years. Keep in mind that they took three trips this summer I told them that under this plan, nobody can get laid off. I suggested that they have to stop using credit cards immediately and I suggested that they cut their phone bills, subscriptions, clothes, groceries, and guilt free spending to the bone. And if they did all of these things and they executed perfectly,

their debt payoff would take about two and a half years. Let's take a listen to what they had to say in their follow-ups. What I learned was that, you know, by setting up some automation, can really help us not only stay on focus, but handle our finances much better. What surprised me the most is in how short of a time frame we can really get out of all this debt. What our plan is to, you know, set some rules and definitely stay focused on our, um, debt calculator schedule, right? By putting 80% of our income into bills and expenses

and 20% savings, it's really going to help us, you help us tackle all this debt and get out of it and hopefully under three years. So, you know, definitely excited to put all this knowledge and play and learn for whatever ways to handle our finances so we can teach our children to do that, you know, moving forward. So thank you again and we'll chat to them. Mostly what I learned is that I can't just sit on the sidelines, you know, we're married couple, we've been married for 18 years and I should have been more involved in our finances and not just

kind of pretend or ignore it really. I think what's surprising the most is that we can get out of this without any quick fixes. I think the right way to do it is how you said, we can aggressively pay off our debt and we plug in the numbers again, adding a little more to our debt each month. Whether it means taking off from certain expenses or not eating out as much, maybe, you know, skipping vacation this year, the difference that it makes on the timeline as far as paying off our debt.

So our plan is to pay off our debt in two years and 11 months, you know, we plan on sticking to this. So we have a whole payment schedule. We use the debt payoff calculator and we plan on sticking to this. So we have a whole payment schedule. We use the debt payoff calculator and we plan on sticking to it. And hopefully everything goes smoothly and we'll be out of debt. Less than three years, which is amazing. I did not expect that. Now here's my question to you.

Do you think they can do it? Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Remeded Saiti. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read, I will teach you to be rich, my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.