I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 154. “We’re drowning in debt, but I drive a BMW”

Episode Date: April 30, 2024

Kevin and Michelle, 32 and 30, joined me live in New York City earlier this year for our very first in-person interview. They have one young child and another on the way, but they can’t stop spending. With low savings, their debt mounts while they both lease luxury vehicles. This episode is brought to you by: Sidebar | Join thousands of leaders from companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta who have taken the first step towards accelerating their career https://sidebar.com/ramit LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at https://drinklmnt.com/RAMIT. Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to https://masterclass.com/ramit. Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at https://facet.com/ramit. Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions – and manage your expenses the easy way – by going to https://rocketmoney.com/ramit. Links mentioned in this episode • "My husband doesn’t trust me to run our business" #1 Connect with Ramit • Get the Podcast Newsletter and exclusive Q&A about the show • Get Money Coaching with Ramit  • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube • Submit a question for the newsletter iwt.com/askramit  If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

Recently, I had an event in New York City. I had hundreds of people come and I brought actual real couples up on stage and did a mini podcast right there in front of everyone. It was awesome and I'm very pleased to announce that I'm doing two more events. I want to let you know about it before anyone else knows. June 1st, I'm going to be in Philadelphia. June 4th in Boston. If you want tickets, you can get them at IWT.com slash Philly and IWT.com slash Boston. Between now and May 3rd, you can use the pre-sale code

RICHLIFE to get tickets. Again, June 1st, I'll see you in Philly. And June 4th in Boston, IWT.com slash Philly and IWT.com slash Boston. IWT.com slash Philly and IWT.com slash Boston. When you discuss money, what actually happens? It's an argument pretty much. We're just never on the same page about it, I guess. Even though I say I do trust them all the time with finances,

I guess I really maybe don't trust you as much as I thought. I always tell myself I'm going to change and do certain things. But then it's like, I'll do it for a few weeks and then I'll take a couple steps back. We're just going to dig our hole deeper. We're never going to be able to pay our debt. God forbid something happens. Then we're really going to be screwed. What are you going to do then?

We're going to have to sell the house. I don't know, move back home. It's going to be horrible. We'll both feel really like terrible. Like we really just failed. I feel like it was always just easier to push the problems to the side. Just to highlight how that is, tomorrow we have a dinner with her brother and his girlfriend also here in New York City. Where are you going? It's hard to get the reservation.

Yeah good. Tough reservation. Which restaurant? Tereesee. Which restaurant? Tereesee. Tereesee. Kevin and Michelle are in their early 30s. They've been married for two years with a three-year-old and they have another on the way in six months. But they are drowning in debt. And when you hear why, I think you're going to be shocked.

I will tell you that my jaw drops several times during our conversation. Kevin and Michelle are textbook examples of the chaser-avoider dynamic. She's a warrior and she chases him. He's an avoider and he runs. That part is obvious, but I'm more interested in why they behave the way they do. Now this is our first ever live recorded episode, which took place in New York City earlier this year. Head over to YouTube to watch and subscribe for even more exciting updates coming soon. And make sure to comment and let me know what you think of the new format.

She was out of the country with our son and her mom. She went on a cruise. She calls me and she tells me, hey, like you have to pay this or mortgage this day. You have to deposit the money into the account. Being busy and stuff like that, I had never gotten a chance to just go to the bank and deposit the money. OK, how much are we talking about? It was like $800 or a little bit more, maybe it was just sitting in my car. And

she tells me to go deposit it. And she told me that before she left. Now, I didn't deposit it. I think it was Friday was the first, and also one of the days I get paid. So I knew I was getting paid regardless. I didn't put the money in, but I had just held the cash on hand.

So she logs in on the cruise, and she sees that I haven't deposited the money. She's like freaking out. I guess in her eyes or in her mind, I had sees that I haven't deposited the money. She's like freaking out. I guess in her eyes or in her mind, I had spent that money on something. And I'm like, Michelle, I have the money. I just haven't had a time to go deposit it. I was like, if you want, I'll transfer you the money. But before we got even to that point,

she was just so upset and disappointed because she felt like I had let her down. I understood where she where her frustration was. She was she was on vacation. she was trying to enjoy herself, and she just felt like she couldn't even leave me one task and I could complete it. It's like, I feel like her approach in certain situations, it's just like, not aggressive, but she's just so quick to like,

her approach sometimes isn't the greatest. So- Like I'm accusatory to you? Almost. And then I get, I guess defensive and then that's when kind of we have like a disagreement. Did you pay extra for that internet on the cruise? I did. I wasn't sure I was gonna have anything like in terms of internet.

So I'm like you need to like make sure you pay this. I gave him all the login information for everything because he had not once since he bought the house ever paid the mortgage. Because he'll just send me the money and then I'll pay it. Why? Um, I guess it's just how we did it. Why? bought the house ever paid the mortgage because he'll just send me the money and then I'll pay it why Um, I guess it's just how we did it. Why? All the decisions you made The hundreds of decisions you made well before this cruise because I could handle the well, like, you know It was i'm the financial person like i'm the one that's going to handle everything

I forgot exactly what I said, but I did say something So where's the 2000 or something like that? And then he probably already okay. I forgot exactly what I said, but I did say something, so where's the 2000 or something like that. And then he probably already, okay, I understand he felt accused. So then that's why he maybe felt upset about the whole situation. No, I feel like if we were able to pull up those messages, there's more along the lines, I knew I couldn't trust you with this. Could she?

She could because- I mean, it hadn't been paid and it was the day. Yeah. It's like really hard because I feel like I'm like investing so much time into this. I want them to like ask questions. I want them to get engaged into like our finances. That's what I really want. And how would you describe Kevin's relationship with family money right now?

Not scared of it, but just like just avoidant. If I give him, if I'm like, oh, here's the password if he's like Oh, can you can you send me $100 for this or something? I'm like, yeah, just log into our account and just take it yourself But you don't have to ask me for $100 just go get it and then he's like well No, I'll just wait then like you just log in and get it And then what happens then I log in and I send it to him So he doesn't he just pretty much get what he wants. Yeah

Yeah, I So he doesn't just pretty much get what he wants? Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. I guess that's true. I've always felt like the finances, even though we are married, obviously it should be very open, but at one point I thought it should be more private. And I didn't want to feel like I was kind of being nosy and like looking at her stuff. looking at her stuff. I'm, I know what I should be doing, but I still overspend here and there, whether it's like little things, stopping at a 7-Eleven and just buying like water, juice and stuff. I think unnecessary spending. I personally, I don't know how she feels about that. I think I've been better since then. Because I'm like, I wanted to realize like you can go to 7-Eleven and get whatever you want. You can go get whatever, like a slushy, you can go do whatever, buy candy, like, you know

whatever. Nothing's off the table, but it just, you have to stay within the 25%, whatever it was that your guilt-free spending is, you know what I mean? I'm so, I have so many things going on currently that it kind of like my mind is all over the place. So I guess I appreciate having her kind of handle our finances, and I feel like a lot of the stress comes off of my shoulders, because I feel sometimes overworked with work and school, like two jobs,

and then trying to be there for the family at the same time. So it kind of feels good to have that pressure off of my shoulders, but then I realized she wants to know that in the future, I am going to be good with my money. She wants to make sure that once we are making more money, we're not just spending it all. I noticed that Kevin has given up all responsibility of the family finances to Michelle.

And Michelle eagerly accepts it. She tries to give him a login, but when he doesn't even open up the link, she just transfers money over to him. He also says, I guess I appreciate her having a handle on our finances. This is a classic phrase. People who don't want to be involved in the money tend to lavish praise on their partner saying things like she's just better with money or he knows how to handle our family

finances. I'm not a math person. But in reality, this is just an unconscious or sometimes conscious technique to avoid responsibility. We'll be right back. One of the worst feelings in life is feeling stuck. You hear it sometimes with podcast couples here. They feel stuck around their money. I felt stuck in my business. I had made a bunch of decisions years ago and I woke up feeling trapped.

So after thinking about it, feeling stuck, not sure what to do, I went to a CEO council that I'm a part of and I just laid it out. And after listening to me, they were like, oh, it's so obvious, you need to change this, move this person over here, change this resource allocation, boom. I wish I had done it years earlier.

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Last thing, the comments about 7-Eleven. He mentions overspending at 7-Eleven a lot. Frankly, I'm skeptical. Nobody gets into tons of debt from 7-Eleven. Let me keep going and find out how they grew up with money. Think back to being a kid. What phrases do you remember your parents saying about money? Dad, definitely like save, save, save. That's too expensive. You know, we

can't eat out. We'll go to like this place we had down the block and it was just like a $12 like combo. Like where we live, it's like a Portuguese food place and it was like we would just, the whole family feed like everyone with $12 and he was so happy about that. Wow. How many people in the family? Well, it's four of us. Okay. Yeah, and my mom not really much I think my dad was more in control of the finances She grew up With both her parents. I grew up with a single mother now My mother worked very hard to provide for myself growing up

hard to provide for myself growing up. But her way of thinking was she would try to provide and give me all these things, not materialistic things, but she would try to give me experiences that she felt would bring us closer together. So she would work her butt off just for us to have a very nice dinner on the weekend. And like that would be our thing. We would have one very nice dinner on the weekend and like that would be our thing we would have one very nice dinner on the weekend she was almost like living paycheck to paycheck but all of that was still trying to spend on she would spend that all on me in the sense that she wanted me to have good things quote

unquote you know let me ask a couple questions when you say a very nice dinner what are we talking about we would come into the city and have a dinner at an expensive restaurant or a fancy- Like a sit down restaurant? Like a sit down restaurant. It would be like a restaurant that, I don't know, maybe you'd run into like a celebrity kind of thing. But she would kind of want me to experience those things

and she'll be like, hey, we're going to go out to dinner at this place. And I'd be like, okay, I didn't know anything about it. But then she would show me like a newspaper article where she read about it and stuff. So she was like, yeah, I didn't know anything about it But then she would show me like a newspaper article where she read about it and stuff So she was like, yeah, I want to like treat you to this. So okay now Knowing that you also mentioned she lived paycheck to paycheck when you look back on those Experiences on the weekend going to these nice restaurants. What do you take away from those experiences?

I don't think it was worth it she could have done so much more with that and it's funny because she's older and I Still sit down and have conversations with her and I tell her these things like I told her we were coming here to the podcast And I told her about how that I don't think that when I was younger she did the right things financially And she she understands that what she say she she agrees, but she blames it kind of on the fact that She's an immigrant. It doesn't really speak good English. She kind of like, she could have been more successful if she had understood the language better and she would have been able to do more with her investments and stuff like that.

As a single mother, she was able to buy a house and we had that house for two to three years but then she ended up having to sell it because it wasn't set up for her to be successful and for us to be successful in the house. It's kind of like one of those balloon payment kind of things where she ended up never paying towards the principal of the house and that was when the market was terrible in 2008 around that time and she fell victim to like you know to those terrible mortgage practices that were going on at the time. Why do you think that she took you to those terrible mortgage practices that were going on at the time. Why do you think that she took you to those restaurants now with some perspective?

She just wanted to have a good experience together memories that we would create and and we could talk about and say that we did those things whether it was that whether it was some vacations and stuff and I was always in it's funny that I'm terrible with finances because when I was younger I was the one in charge of do handling all her bills I was the one who she would give me pretty much access to her paychecks or to her bank accounts And I was the one she would tell me hey you have to pay this this and that on certain day and certain time Whatever hold on she would tell you That you have to pay this bill

and that bill on this day. Does that happen in your life anywhere else right now? Yeah, it does. Who does that? It all came full circle and it's the same situation now with my wife. But you did pay the bills for your mom. Why don't you pay the bills for her?

I'll give you a perfect other example. Our taxes. We just did our taxes. Now I ask all these questions and when I ask the questions, she gets annoyed with me. Put yourself in her shoes. Why do you think she might be upset? Because she feels like I don't ask the questions any of the other time. So why am I asking it now? Yes

Feels like can you give me an analogy? It feels like I'm trying to kind of sit on the sidelines all the time and now all of a sudden I want to hop in the game and play yeah Your money cuz you're gonna get your It wasn't that we're gonna know I know but you know That's my interpretation like you know you see you're expecting a lump sum of money And then you want to know what to do with it when like you didn't know what like we didn't you didn't contribute the whole year to like the you know, the bills or whatever. It feels a bit like backseat driving.

Let me ask the question a different way. What is a better way for you to change throughout the whole year? Be more involved. How? Ask the necessary questions. Take initiative. be a part of paying the bills, be aware. We need to be on the same page and ask each other the questions. That's where our goal is here is to feel comfortable and realize and break those barriers that there should be no, I wouldn't say secrets, but like there shouldn't be any disconnect when it comes

to knowing each other and our finances. Okay. What would have happened if the mortgage had not gotten paid on the first? I have no idea. Probably a fee, a late fee problem. What do you think Kevin? Definitely, probably a late fee, definitely a fight. The trust would have been completely gone right at that point. I feel like

Michelle did you ever think about Not checking in on the first no I probably was always going to check my shoes I wasn't going to check in with him if I looked at the account and everything looked right then I would have just been happy Mm-hmm, but when I looked at at it and then there was the 2000 missing, I'm like, oh, like I have a problem. It's already the first, like I said, I didn't have Wi-Fi that day. I was just in, you know, the crew stopped at the port,

and we were leaving Mexico at 3 p.m. So I'm already like spiraling, like, okay, it's going to be, it's like already 1 p.m. I need to like make sure this gets paid before 3 so I can like, you know, rest my head tonight. Yeah. There's one area I want to comment on here. The dynamic of money between them. The way that they have set their money up,

Michelle is the parent and Kevin is the child. He has to ask for money to be transferred to him. He doesn't do much because his parent, excuse me, his wife, Michelle, handles everything. This is insanely frustrating to him. He doesn't do much because his parent, excuse me, his wife, Michelle, handles everything. This is insanely frustrating to her and understandably so, but of course she's co-created this dynamic. At one point I said, what would have happened if the mortgage hadn't gotten paid? And what I was really looking for was what kind of boundaries Michelle has ever set? What kind of consequences would he face? But the answer was none.

Michelle would never let that happen, which is why she was logging on to check if her husband paid the mortgage as she asked him to from thousands of miles away on her vacation. But why would he change? There's no reason for him to. I'm not saying this is right. I'm simply demonstrating

that people will often rise or fall to the level of expectation around them. When you discuss money, what actually happens? It's an argument pretty much. Mm hmm. Or just, we're just never on the same page about it, I guess, kind of thing. Go deeper. Who's the one who brings it up? Me. Uh huh. Who's the one who brings it up me? Uh-huh. Who's the one who?

Makes the decision Me when was the first time that you remember sitting down and having a serious conversation about money I think the first time I ever really even did that honestly from my records was was a December of 2023 like literally just recently. Yeah. Why? Because I started listening to the podcast. No one ever has thought of us as struggling or stuff with our money. I feel like everybody just assumes we're good with money.

Do you need to struggle in order to plan? Definitely. You do? I feel like, well no, now that we've kind of gotten to this place where we realize we need to discuss our finances, I don't think we should struggle in order to plan. I think we should plan so that we don't struggle. That is the goal for both of us. But again, it's easy to say these things, but putting action down and actually doing the things that need to be done is kind of where I lack the most. What's your reaction to all these quote discussions? Defensive, almost like, let's get this over with and move on.

Why? Because I don't like to hear the facts almost. Why? Because I don't feel like I'm leading like I would like to. Well, you're not leading. You're not even in the ball game. Yeah. What else? Why are you not participating in these conversations?

Because I don't feel comfortable almost. I feel like she doesn't trust me. Yeah, I think there's an, I mean, rightfully so. Yeah. What else? Is there any reason for you to participate in these? Yeah, there should be. I'm not saying is there should be, I'm saying is there.

You ask her, can you transfer me a hundred dollars? She says something and then a week later transfers you a hundred dollars. You get what you want. Yeah. She says, let's talk about X. You say, great. You sit back, wait for her to finish talking and then it gets handled. Mortgage payment. She tells you to do it. You don't do it. And then she calls while you're getting defensive, reminding you to do it. I'll ask again. Is there any reason for you to participate in the finances? No. So it's never been established and anytime there's a financial challenge or

question, who's the one taking on the burden? Look at me putting an additional five pound weight on my back every single time there's an issue. Who's doing that? Michelle. Michelle. No consequence, no burden. Really living a very great life. Honestly. I see something, I get it, not my problem. Why would anyone change? Right. Why would they?

I would love to be in that position where I'm just like, oh I get it and someone else deals with the problems. Right. Yeah. That's true. Kevin, when was a chance where you failed and faced the consequences with money? I went to college right out of high school. I had no debt. I had gotten pretty much grants and like a scholarship and stuff like that.

Nice. So I went to college and I ended up not doing exactly what I needed to do. I took college almost as a joke. My first year I did terrible and my mom decided to just retire and she moved back to Columbia and she kind of told me you need to grow up and and figure it out. So she left and I kept my apartment that we had. At the time I think I was paying like $1,500 a month, which at the time was a lot.

It was a two-bedroom, nice area. So I ended up having one of my friends move in with me. And for the first few months, it was great. Everything was working out. But then I started getting reckless with my spending habits. And I started spending it on partying and just going out all the time and stuff like that. And then he ended up moving out and I started falling behind on payments.

And it got to a point where I almost got evicted and I almost lost that apartment. So, at the time, I mean it was frustrating. I was stressed out and I was disappointed in myself. It was terrible because the apartment was in my mom's name. So, I messed up her credit with that. It wasn't mine that got messed up, but it was like at that point, it was almost like she couldn't trust me financially either. That was like the start of I guess the same old habits. It was like it was a situation where I wasn't trusted to stay there. Things got tough for me and that's kind of where I had to like dig deep

and really like change a lot of my habits and stuff like that. Oh, that's what it took for you to change your habits? Yeah. And my mom told me that and it was kind of, she told me I would hit rock bottom. I wonder if there's any relevance to this situation right now. Anybody? Yep, absolutely. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah, I'll try to convince him to care but in like the wrong way like you said

you know ask me to any questions you have or You know here, let's just pay this mortgage payment like we don't really talk about it It's just like I give him a task to complete and then I'm like, okay here, you know do this But it's not like we're talking about it. I'm just like telling him what to do. So that's not really fair either It's not like we're talking about it. I'm just like telling him what to do. So it's not really fair either. Yeah, because that's kind of where I feel like it like just exactly as she said, it almost feels like she's giving me tasks and then she is and then and then you we talked

about how it almost feels like I've told her this. I'm like it almost feels like you're my mother. But like it shouldn't I shouldn't have to feel like that because you're my partner. We're a team. We should be doing this together. Even though I say I do trust him all time with finances, I guess't have to feel like that because you're my partner. We're a team. We should be doing this together. Even though I say I do trust him all the time with finances, I guess I really maybe don't trust you as much as I thought I did. What does that feel like to you?

It kind of feels exactly how I've always thought of that situation. I've always felt like she didn't trust me with the finances. I know I've given her reasons in the past to not trust me, but I want her to know that everybody could change, everybody could evolve and grow and learn. And that's what I want. That's where I'm trying to get to because I want us to, besides those tough financial conversations, everything else is great. So I want us to be great in every aspect. And yeah, we're going to have tough times and we're going to and we're going to struggle here and there.

But if we work together, I've I've always been confident that if together we could do whatever. Just so I'm clear, besides the way that you talk about money, everything else financially is good. I would think so. Yeah, in my opinion. How much debt do you have? We're going to get back to the answer to that question, but trust me when I say everything is not good. You know, sometimes I read the comments on this podcast

and people really want me to just blast one or both of the guests who come on the show. And it would be easy for me to sit here and scream at Kevin for not taking on a leadership role, or really any role at all, in his family finances. I always ask myself, do I want to feel good about myself, or do I want to help this couple? If I simply wanted to shame people about their money,

I would not be doing what I do. Anyone can bring a couple on, shriek at them for how much they spend on eating out, slap an ultra offensive thumbnail up and call it a day. That's not what I want to do. And in the past, I have lost my temper on this show. There were a few instances where I heard something so wrong or so offensive that I just let loose. It happened on episode one and several other places.

But it rarely helps. Yelling at someone is what some people in the audience want, but I find it intellectually lazy and I find it unhelpful. And I know that because personally, if I needed help with something, the last thing I would want is to be yelled at. It's much more interesting in my opinion to examine the money dynamic between Michelle and Kevin. Why has Kevin abdicated all responsibility for money? Because he faces no consequences

and because Michelle handles everything for him. Me saying that does not mean I'm blaming Michelle, but I am acknowledging the very real dynamic that exists between them. The only way for them to change is to truly deeply understand the dynamic that they have co-created and for both of them to decide they want to change it. But trust me, yelling at someone does not change their behavior. Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsors.

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FACET is an SEC registered investment advisor headquartered in Baltimore, Maryland. This is not an offer to sell securities or investment, financial, legal, or tax advice. Past performance is not a guarantee of future performance. Terms and conditions apply. Now back to the show. So he was working as a maintenance manager.

We did not pay rent. We did not have a housing cost because he was doing that. So as part of his salary, we would get free rent. So also at the time, it was during COVID. So it was like we were making a lot of money and we weren't paying rent. It was like we didn't have to talk about money. Not that we didn't have to, but it was more so like we didn't it was whatever like, you know It was like, okay Michelle. I want to buy this PlayStation 5. Yeah here like go buy it

No, it was no questions asked But then when we when he did make that career change and we did move we bought a house so many things happened It was like okay now Now what we do like now, what do we do? What did you do with all that extra money you had during that time? Um, we brought... We... Well, we got married. We had a wedding. We spent a lot. We, you know, used a lot of it for the wedding.

Um, we went on a honeymoon to Barcelona. Um, we paid for my son, our son's formula and diapers and stuff. How much did the wedding cost? You know, there's not really a real answer. I mean I would say about 90,000 90 that's a good number Yeah, how come you don't know the number? No, well, there was a number on a spreadsheet Which you quickly exceeded right? Yeah The note the figures changed with like unexpected costs about the wedding, whether it was invitations or... I've heard that happen. Yeah. Yeah. There was just a lot of other expenses. And it wasn't even unexpected costs. Like we knew what the cost was going to be,

but then we took a pay cut. Like out of nowhere, COVID kind of came down. So we took, I took a pay cut at my job. He obviously took a pay cut at his job. So it was like less income and increased money that we had to spend. Yeah. In my mind, I felt almost like school at this point in our life wasn't even worth it. Like I almost felt like I should have stayed in property management and kept doing what I was doing. This is another classic mistake. People decide to make a major purchase without factoring in phantom costs and assuming everything is gonna be perfect.

And then something happens, like a job loss, but they don't adjust their spending. By the time they realize they're in trouble, it's too late. Let's look at their conscious spending plan now. You can download your own CSP template to follow along at iwT.com slash CSP. I got home, I would say, probably like an hour before her. So I went ahead and I wrote down all my spending and everything.

So I had everything ready. Nice. But then I thought it was wrong and I just went and checked it anyway. So you didn't trust him. OK. I kind of, you know, just sat down. I was OK. Well, this is what I have on the... Let me pause you right there. So you started off the meeting by you taking the initiative. Taking charge. I wonder if that perpetuates any dynamics. What do you think?

Right. Yeah. I think it does. I started out excited, but then it just became homework real quick because, you know, it was getting late and then I knew we had to have it submitted and I just Yeah, and we weren't talking too much. Yeah, I mean at first to be honest I saw I guess as homework but after I was kind of excited about it because as much as it doesn't seem like I want to Discuss have those tough conversations. It was nice to actually see the numbers. Basically, I just asked him for his... Because he had like a couple like debts.

I was like, oh, what are the amounts on those? What are you on your car payment? Okay, thanks. And then I just plugged the numbers in and then I said, do you have any questions? Did his fingers touch the keyboard? No, I don't think they said. I want her to understand that I could be trusted as much as I have improved to be able to I want her to

understand that I'm very capable to lead and explain to her like these are the numbers that I came up with let's go over your numbers and then if you think that we're wrong let's talk about it and figure it out. How does that sound? Yeah. That'd be nice. That sounds great. They say something during the conversation. I'll tell you what.

It's really impressive that you prepared the numbers. I really like that. I think that going that last step is where you really get all the benefits of doing the work. And then you come and you say, you know what? I realized that I want to take more of a leadership role when it comes to money in our family so I know I got a work on it here's what I did I went through my numbers I analyzed this I might be off on a couple of them but I'd love to talk to you about it but here

they are I wonder if we can go through them together how do you think that would have gone over oh that sounds great I think that would have worked over? Oh, that sounds great. I think that would have worked perfectly. And honestly, I feel like she would have appreciated that. I think so too. Right? What do you think, Michelle? I'm giving you a big kiss. Okay. Let's see. Michelle, let's do the net worth. Can you read the word in bold and then the number in full next to it? Sure. So under assets, there's $251,000.

Okay. Next. in full next to it? Sure. So under assets, there's $251,000. Okay. Next. And keep going. Okay, so investments is $43,700. Savings is $500. And debt, $628,500. Okay, total net worth?

Negative $333,300. All right, what do you think about that number? Not where I want it to be. No where near where it should be. Okay. What's it? So the $251,000 is your house? Yes. Okay. And your investments fine, savings, okay. And your debt. Break that down for me. $628,000 of debt. What is that? So $414,000 is a mortgage. $30,000 of debt. What is that? So? 414,000 is a mortgage. Mm-hmm. 30,000 is my car. Okay. 69,000 is Kevin's car. Okay. My student loans 18,000. Mm-hmm.

Mine are about 12,000. Mm-hmm. Credit card debt. About 73,000. 73,000 in credit card debt. Right. Well, one of them's well, so one of them's a loan for six for fifty five thousand and the credit card debt's eighteen thousand. What's the loan? It's a consolidation of all the other credit card debt.

So that's why I put it all under the same. Uh, okay. What's the interest rate on that consolidation? Do you know? 17%. Alright. It's effectively credit card. Right. How come we spent so much time talking about 7-Eleven Snacks?

Right. But we're over here with over $70,000 of credit card debt. Right. A $69,000 car loan. I know. Yeah, I knew that was coming. I don't even know why we got that car, to be honest, because we did the math on it and we couldn't afford it.

And then I don't know what happened and we... Not that I don't know what happened, I know what happened. We still went for it. Because I was just being an enabler and I said, yeah, like it's okay, we'll figure out how to make it work. And when you figure it out, who do you become in the relationship? The hero.

Yeah. And by the way, what kind of car was it, Kevin? I have a BMW. A lot of this was before I took that pick up but now that I have taken that pick up it's so ridiculous and I know I have to get out of it. So how come you haven't? We just haven't had time. Because then we'll take a loss. I mean regardless. Yeah so the reason the... What was the net worth of the or the worth of the car or whatever you did the Kelly? so the the cars valued at about 48,000 and

69 is what I own it. Mm-hmm so I've definitely would take a loss, but I just we haven't taken the time to go in and figure out like What what our best option is to be honest the reason I stayed with them So I had a BMW previously, hers is a Mercedes, so we both have luxury vehicles that we both have no reason to be in. You have a BMW and a Mercedes. Yep. That's literally like half of our income. And those cars also take some pretty expensive gas, huh?

That's why I say I spend a lot of money on gas. How come you got the cars? That is why I say I spend a lot of money on gas. How come you got to cars? That's what I'm curious about. I don't know. I've always had a luxury car since I was younger. Oh, that's a good reason too. Because my dad always had a luxury car too. I don't know.

It just seemed like a asset that you had that like it made you feel good because you work so hard. You know, you want to have a nice car hard you you know you want to have a nice car so i've always liked to have a nice car so i had a lexus rx this is getting into specifics but i had a lexus rx 500 and then um i was paid off it was great it was fine and one day i don't know what happened we walked into a dealership and we were looking at cars and there was a really nice like m-series BMW So I traded in my Lexus for the BMW that was on a lease well So then after that I realized like this lease you know we were having a baby

It was a kind of too small for the baby and everything so that's why I decided on the Mercedes. It was bigger And then you hold on hold on this is like classic. I know Americana I know in the worst ways yeah first of all a luxury how much were you making at the time where you had that? Lexus Maybe in sixty thousand seventy thousand dollars a year. Okay. Thank you. This is making my story even better I know making seventy thousand dollars a year buying a Lexus. Yeah, basically spending a hundred percent of your salary on a car Then you go. Hey, this car is paid off. I know what I'm going to do.

I'm going to incur more payments. It was the worst thing I ever did. So you go in there and then the minute you have a baby, what does every single parent in America do? We need a house and an SUV. Why? Because our little infant that can't even move needs to run around. Right.

Yeah. And then so you go, you buy one, two, three things, income goes down. Right? One of you goes to school, one of you takes time back from work, etc. So you have these skyrocketing costs, lower income, heavier costs with the baby. And now what happens? You're trapped. Stuck in a... Yeah. You have car payments and transportation of $2,495 a month. That's one of the highest I've ever seen. Really? Yeah, that's the car payment plus gas. So I had a BMW before and it was a lease.

That one... That's when I really started taking coaching seriously. I'm like I really took almost like a second full-time job and I didn't realize, I didn't account for how much I'd be traveling. So I had, at first I had, I think it was a 10,000 mile lease and I was way over my miles. Then I had someone side-swiped me on the car and it wasn't, there was like a hit and run kind of situation. I started realizing that I was going to be way over my miles and I decided I had to go get a new car

So I went in and tried what the hell what? Yeah, so then did you make that decision because I knew that I knew I was gonna get screwed in the end So I now that I think about it or now we've been like this. Yeah, I got screwed even worse Yeah, so what happened was you screwed yourself? Yeah, definitely. So what happened was- You screwed yourself. Yeah, definitely. So, I started going to many car dealerships. I was not trying to go luxury. But, what the issue I kept running into was the only dealership that would give me the

highest cost of my car was BMW if I stayed with them. Every other car company wasn't giving me anywhere near what the car was worth. So I ended up rolling all that negative equity into this new car payment and financed it. Well, the good news is that the car dealers of America love both of you because you're exactly what they want. They will run you into the ground if they can.

And all the reasons they gave you, let me tell you all the ways that you Pursue this that I would not have First of all I got a BMW when you couldn't afford it to a lease why a lease well the first one was least this one's Why? There's no reason there's only two people who should get a lease one if you're incredibly wealthy Two if you have some type of business where this could be considered a business expense. There's zero reason to have a lease, especially for a BMW or a luxury car when you don't have the money for it.

Yeah. You are exactly who they love. And then third, you take it and cash it in early and roll it over. Like one, two, three. Perfect for the car dealers. Terrible for myself. Yeah. And again, we're spending hours talking about 7-Eleven.

Right. Absolutely. When the house is burning down over here. Right. Another thing that we tend to do that I was telling her we need to stop doing is taking vacations. We take a lot of... Well, hold on.

We'll get to that in a second. And how about the mortgage? We owe about 414 thousand dollars interest rate six point two five yeah why'd you buy a house because we need to establish roots somewhere huh what's that well one I was getting out of the whole property management thing so I had gotten out of that So I would have lost the 50% discount that I was getting. The apartment where I was working and living, I would say that I think that apartment was $3,200 if we had to pay it. So instead of paying $3,200 towards rent, we figured $3,700 on a mortgage would be way

better. But $3,700 plus, what are all the phantom costs when it comes to housing? You all had any repairs recently? Yeah, we did a lot. We renovated the whole house. How much? About $80,000. I'm just counting all the different industries that love you.

Car dealers of America, home renovators of America, home depot of America. You don't have a home depot card though. That's good. That's good. The mortgage lenders love us. What's the thing about vacations you mentioned, Kevin? I feel like Michelle loves taking vacations. It's always like, it'll be like a weekend thing.

It'll be like a one week thing. And like I get it. She, she, I love to travel, we both love to travel. So yes, we want to explore the world and do all these things. And she's like, well, we can afford to do it, so like why not? Like we should do it. Where was the last place you went? Uh, Austin? No, Bahamas.

That's nice. But after that, she was just on the cruise that she just went on with her mom and then When she suggests these vacation spots, how does it make you feel, Kevin? My first reaction is like, I don't think it's necessary. Then obviously I enjoy it. I have a great time. Who wouldn't? So, so you're just I enjoy it. I have a great time. Who wouldn't? But I just, I'm hesitant.

That's, I'm really actually hesitant because I don't feel like it's necessary in that moment or I don't feel like it's the right time because there's been situations where we took these vacations and I had to take off from work. So now I'm missing out on money that I could be making. And a lot of the times I've expressed that to her. I got to cancel coaching. I got to do this and stuff and things around she respond We'll figure it out Yeah, I feel like where he may overspend with like, you know, the little things like this is my like it is my biggest problem like feeling the need to

Go on vacation because I see a cheap flight and I'm like, oh well look I'm gonna buy this cheap flight but then of course comes other costs like the hotel might not be as cheap and then of course the food and whatever else comes with it So I think I get lured in by that like small like oh my gosh, the flights $80 like we have to go. Mm-hmm But it's not $80 in total. How many vacations you take a year? Maybe In total, how many vacations you take a year? Maybe. Three. OK, round up. Last year we took about 10.

Wait, it literally it's my math. Exactly. Exactly. I say take whatever it is and triple it. However much you say you eat out, triple it. However much you say you take vacation, triple it. It never fails! Everybody make a note. Rameet's rule number 318 vacations.

Whatever you say you spend, triple it. Right. How do you pay for all this stuff when you go to the Bahamas? Well the flight I usually use miles. And then the hotel I'll get like through my job. They have like discounts. So I'll get a discount through my job, but I'll pay that on the debit card. But when we get there, it's like a free for all.

Like I'll just use a credit card. And we have a lot of credit card debt. Yep. Banks and credit cards love you too. Yeah, they all love us. Whoa. I know. I don't know.

I truly, we're in a really bad financial position and I think we need to come up with. I hope that our plan to get out of it works well and that we can keep our house and keep everything running smoothly and that nothing happens to either one of us in the next two years because if it does we're screwed. The next two years where you have a new baby coming. Right. And your little one's going to be getting older. Yeah. Let me just ask to refresh your memory.

How much do you have in savings right now? Five hundred dollars. How long would that last you if one of you lost your jobs? Not even a week. Yeah, I think it's scary. I think it's. Reality is really setting in now. Honestly, I'm at a loss.

We spent almost an hour talking about 7-Eleven Snacks and Kevin not paying the mortgage. And then we look at the numbers and find two luxury cars, $80,000 of credit card debt, tens of thousands of dollars on a home renovation, and 10, literally 10 vacations last year. It's almost hard to believe. But it's real.

There are a lot of people like this in America. They make a nice income, but they spend every last cent. And rather than looking at the real problem, which would invariably require a total lifestyle shift, they pick out one random area and fixate on it. At this point in my conversation, I'm still not sure how serious they are about changing. We'll see. One of the areas that I love to spend money on is convenience. It can be as small as buying

an extra phone charger for each room, or it can be as big as getting a personal chef. One of the things I like to do is start with the vision and then figure out where you can find the money to pay for it. But where's that money supposed to come from? Well, it could be from things you're already spending money on, but you don't actually care about. For most people, that is money spent on unwanted subscriptions, things you signed up for years ago, and you're not even using it that much anymore. This episode's sponsor, Rocket Money, can help you find them. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

Rocket Money has over five million members and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all the app's features. One of our readers, Talia, wrote this about Rocket Money. I've been using Rocket Money for the last month and really like it. I've used a variety of apps, but I love how simple this one is, and it's just easy to see everything in one place. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash Ramith. That's rocketmoney.com slash Ramith.

Rocketmoney.com slash Ramith. Here by the way are the income numbers for Kevin and Michelle. Kevin makes $4,000 a month gross. Remember that he's in school, plans to make more soon. Michelle makes $14,000 a month gross. She's a nurse practitioner and adjunct professor. They combined have a household income of $216,000, which is a very good income, meaning they probably have some options.

Let's take a look. So $216,000 is a lot of income, meaning they probably have some options. Let's take a look. So $216,000 is a lot of money. Right? Yeah. You would think so. Yeah. I mean, regardless of where you live, that's a lot of money. Okay?

So what do you think is going on here where it feels so tight? Michelle, I'm going to ask you because you manage the money. Okay. So, you know, when I go through the fixed costs, like, I don't think it's the housing because it's under the, whatever it is, under the 28%, I believe. But I know the car payment, transportation, like, you know, the gas, the car insurance, that's a big one. And we're aggressively trying to pay off the credit card debt.

So that's another huge one for fixed costs. So that's why I think it's so tight right now. It feels like we're fine. I guess because she does always take on that role to make sure that we're fine. The reason I feel like we're fine is because we don't like miss our payments. So in my eyes, we're fine.

That's a pretty low bar. How do you think she receives it when you tell her that? Probably doesn't believe it How do you feel about it? Yeah, I feel like Almost like okay, but Not not like who are you to say that but like yeah, like, you know again, you've not been involved in it and it's kind of like I say that, but like, yeah, like, you know, again, you've not been involved in it. And it's kind of like, I thought that using it on paper would make you feel like, well, like, you know, we do need to change, but it didn't. So then I'm kind of more concerned. Yeah, that's honest. I thought this would finally be the moment that he gets it. And

not only does he not get it, now he's sitting over here reassuring me. Telling me it's going to be okay. Is he ever going to get it? He's not engaged. He's not working on this. I give him one assignment and he doesn't do it and so I have to call. And now he's trying to smooth things over telling me it's going to be okay. It would make me wonder if we're ever going to be on the same page.

Those are my words. Can we look line by line at your fixed costs? Okay, so Michelle, what's this number here next year combined fixed costs? 73%. What do you think about that number? I think it's high. Yeah, it's high. Let's just do the rest of these categories and then we'll break down into your fixed costs.

Investments, what number is here? 3%. So I think that's low. Yeah. Savings goals? 4% combined. Okay. And your guilt-free spending?

19%. Which I don't really believe. You think this number is higher? No, I think it's lower. Can't be lower because where would the rest of the money be going? Oh, well. Where is it? At 7-Eleven?

That's 7-Eleven. Just kidding. I don't know. I mean, do you see my... How would you characterize my reaction to these numbers? Exactly how I expected it to be because it's not okay and you're realistic. And what are you? I'm living a fantasy over here.

Oh. Because I just haven't sat down and really thought about reality. I haven't sat down and realized that we're struggling. Why? Because I've always had Michelle who kind of like protected us and took care of like the bigger issues and stuff. Michelle, do you see what has happened here? Yeah.

He's saying what he's saying and then I'm supposed to be the protector, but in fact I actually messed things up even more by like saying, yeah, we should get those cars. We should do that. Like I'm to blame as well. Uh huh. So both of you are enabling each absolutely Guilty of it. Yeah hurtling towards disaster right Do you hear the alarm in my voice? Absolutely. Okay. I

Feel like it was always just easier to push the problems to the side How do you get that to change? It's easier to push the problems to the side. How do you get that to change? Besides ask the questions, become more involved. Take the initiative to. You would have already done that. If that's all it took, you would have done that. You've been together for a long time.

Yeah. What needs to change in order for you to change? My mentality. How? Digging deep and realizing where my issues are and understanding and reflecting and kind of just saying it's not going to do anything and then thinking of the worst case scenario if I continue these habits how it could affect my son and our soon to be here child also. You coach soccer?

Yes. How old are the kids? All ages. I coach a high school girls varsity team that I just got that job actually so I haven't started with them till the fall. I also work at an elite academy that is top in this area and in the US and with there I coach kids. Youngest I've worked with there right now currently is probably like eight year olds. And then it goes up to like high school. Let's talk about that. Okay.

I used to be a soccer referee. So when you get into the older kids, especially at an elite place, they're serious. Yeah, they are. They're not messing around. They're not. All right. Let's say you take one of your under 15 kids. Okay.

They're acting up at practice. They're not doing what they need to do. They're talking back to you. What do you do when game time comes around? They get limited playing time. And then where I am, parents will ask you. And I'm very quick to let them know. Oh, what do you say?

I actually just had this happen recently. So I told them, told him I'm like listen they play 9v9 right now I have 19 kids on my team 12 get rostered So seven kids were in rostered and I had the one parent reach out to me and asked me hey what happened They said that their their child was working hard at practice and I explained to them your child was working hard at practice But they've been distracting all the other kids on the team. Mm-hmm Your child was working hard at practice, but they've been distracting all the other kids on the team. They are fooling around a lot of the time. And unfortunately, like, they're just, their mentality wasn't there.

And I bring it up to them, the kids themselves. And I try to, I try to, it's funny that I'm about to say this because now I'm like, this is just, it's just so funny. But I tell them that I want to teach them to hold themselves accountable for their actions. And even at a young age, I try to teach them that because I try to teach them, not only am I teaching them soccer,

but I'm trying to teach them life lessons that they could take with them forever. And I want them to be able to grow as young men and young women, and I want them to be successful in every aspect of their life. So I treat them like adults. I ask them the tough questions that they probably don't want to hear. You're a good coach?

Would you say that? Excellent. I like that answer. I love the confidence. Great. Okay. So I'm talking to a good soccer coach here. You know what it takes to create a player who cares, who wants to be better, etc. Works hard.

Yeah. You also know that you have to set some boundaries, right? Absolutely. Okay, now apply that to your own relationship with your family money. You've tried to dig deep. Michelle said, hey, I want you to care. You don't. What's the solution?

The solution is just changing changing just literally becoming disciplined Isn't that what you try to tell your students? Yeah, and some of them listen and some don't how long has she told you? Be better Get involved Yeah for about a year or two now, what's the next step? He needs to prioritize. Maybe it's not about him. You're the coach right now. What do you need to do? Use a different, should like to go in a different direction. Yes. I don't want to cut him from the team. So yeah But there's something else right yeah, what is it?

Change the next step is boundaries Because we can't just sit here and berate each other and braid ourselves and say like I got to be better You need to be better. That doesn't work. It, it's true. Right now you have no reason to be motivated. Right. Why would you? You get playing time every single week, no matter what. You're very responsive to crystal clear boundaries. Michelle?

Yeah, I think it maybe set some boundaries like I don't even know how to do that. That's okay. That's what we're here for. How about you send me the money and I pay the bills instead of me sending you the money? You saw her face? Okay, okay. I like that. That's a good.

The big change for me right now. Maybe you're not comfortable with that, but I like that that suggestion is pretty bold. Yeah, cool. What's with the finances even like a good idea? I'll handle these five bills you can do these five. Wow, I like it. Yeah, okay That's definitely one option great put it on the table. What else let's get a few out here We eat out a lot like how much like at least twice a week or once a week No couple ever says to me we eat out a lot and then the other one goes once a week. At least on the weekends. We've been way better.

We've been way better since we did this. Yeah exactly. To be honest. But besides that no. And it's not like we're having cheat meals. And just to highlight how that is, tomorrow we have a dinner with her brother and his girlfriend also here in New York City. So, where are you going?

It's hard to get the reservation. Where are you going? Yeah, good. Tough reservation. Which restaurant? Terisi. Terisi. Okay, for everyone who doesn't know, can you just look to the camera and tell them what

kind of restaurant is Terisi? Fancy Italian restaurant. I'll put it this way, David Beckham's all over their Instagram or social media for being there. Yeah, like would you say that it's like a hot restaurant? Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. So you're like, but it's a super hard res. We nailed it. Right, we got one. I mean, we have to go. How much you think it'll be? Well, yeah, she can't drink now, but I already know that we have a 250 minimum, I think, that we have to spend. No, we're going to spend that. I think it's like 400, more than $500 maybe. I would say at least 500. For the two of you? No for all four. And then like you're driving into the city, parking. So we're looking at

like 350 something like that right? Minimum. Yeah that makes sense. All for an experience. So I got a question. Yeah, I mean, in a way, it kind of reminds me of your mom taking you into the city, going to the hard to get res that's in the paper, right? Is this not exactly the same thing? It is. And then what did you tell your mom like later in life? You're like, mom, looking back, I think. What'd you say?

We shouldn't have done that. But I look at it the wrong way because I don't like Rameet mentioned like okay the toll we're going to pay the toll we're going to pay the parking like we're going to pay all this stuff that I wouldn't even take into account because I'm just thinking oh well we already each paid $50 for the reservation we're going to lose the $50. I don't want to do something and feel bad about doing it like I want to go knowing that like wow like you know we were able to go because we could afford it this month. Can I tell you something? Mm-hmm.

Couples who make $216,000 should not be thinking about being able to afford something this month. If you made $50,000 a year, okay, we'd be talking on a monthly basis. Making over $200,000 a year and being concerned if you can afford a meal, that's a problem. You're playing smaller than your income suggests you should be. And the reason you're playing smaller, you have to play smaller, is why? Because our fixed costs are really high. Exactly.

Your fixed costs are super high. So therefore, you're obsessing over haircuts and snacks. It's not the point. That's like a total distraction from what's really going on here. Which is the house is burning down. Yeah. Okay. Your phone is $330 a month. Why?

Because everyone's on the phone payment plan. Why? For just us two, it was like 200 something. So I put like his mom, my my dad my dad's wife my brother Me and Kevin why'd you do that? They were all also paying a lot of money. So if we all combined it would made Sense that everyone just gives me for that for their phone and then I do that My dad does how about everybody? How about the other 19 people on that plan? Well, I you know, I feel bad asking my mom because she takes care of our son. We pay no childcare fee or anything my brother

I mean he could probably pay me but it's like $30. So I'm like, all right. No, she's just too nice because I've told her I'm like listen I'll send you like let me know exactly how much I owe you for my mom and myself You just gotta let me know and I'll send it to you." She said, don't worry. Just focus on your other bills. Because when you're nice, you are? Saving people. You're the hero. Yeah.

Do you see how that comes out in so many different places in your life? Yeah. Financially and probably otherwise? Right. Yeah. That's a problem I have. I will agree. People pleaser? Yeah. And the thing is you're actually just playing small. Yeah. Shows up in other parts of life too, right I will agree. Yeah, the thing is you're actually just playing small. Yeah

The parts of life too, right? Oh, yeah Yeah, okay. I think we're both people. That's a lot of the a lot our biggest issue. What what? If you were a people pleaser, you would have been using the shell by taking on 50% of the finances, right? You're not a people pleaser, not when it comes to finances. You're deeply avoidant. Yeah. Very true. So what's up?

Do you all see that this isn't just one person here? Right. Kevin, you're avoidant. Anything it's like water off a duck's back. Any financial thing that comes in, you're just like, great, goes right off my back. Right. Michelle, you pick it up so much. You internalize this idea of yourself as what is your identity when it comes to money in

your relationship? The person that will handle it. Yeah. The person that handles it. Good. What else? Keep going. Yeah.

The expert, the money expert in our relationship. Good. The expert. And when you solve it and you save the day, you ever save the day when it comes to money? Where are we supposed to find the money for this or that? What do we call the person who saves the day? Yeah, the this you know the hero hero right? Yeah, you don't feel good about that. You sure right? I guess I subconsciously do but in reality like I'm just looking at you know I'm just like I'm looking at myself like well. I had to sacrifice on this that and the other so what do you do it? You must be getting something out of it, but I'm just the good person that I'm just looking at myself like, well I had to sacrifice on this, that and the other. So what do you do it? You must be getting something out of it.

That I'm just the good person. Yeah. Yeah. And if you were to say no to your husband, what does that make you? The villain. Oh. Yeah. What do you think about that?

That's kind of powerful. The villain. Yeah. That's not like just a bad person. The villain. I don't think she should feel that way, but that doesn't make me feel good that she does feel like that. Hmm. And yet you ask her two days ahead of getting paid for a hundred dollars. And you don't even transfer it yourself. You wait for her to do it.

Yeah. So in a way the dynamic here turns her into the villain. The one that you are participating in. But, Michelle, you also actively participate. You two have co-created this dynamic. Right. Right.

Hmm. It's like a knot. And when one pulls on it, what happens to the knot? It's tighter. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And the more he avoids it, the more you say, I really want you to dig deep and participate,

but that doesn't, that's just words. Right. The only thing that causes change in a scenario like this is actually boundaries. Right. And you know that because it happened to you in your life. That's the only thing that got you to change. Took years. Yeah.

You know, it feels uncomfortable because it's like, you're almost taking like x-ray glasses to your own relationship. Right. You two are the same people you were walking in here, but you're just seeing your relationship with a new lens and sometimes it's uncomfortable because you're like, oh, like what we thought was like quite simple. We just need this one little budgeting tip. And then you realize there's a not here.

Right. That's incredibly complex. And if we try to get out of it the way we've tried, it just gets tighter. And that's the thing too, because I feel like we keep coming back to, oh, well, this is just temporary. In two years, I'll have my degree.

But it's not because the way we're thinking about it, like our mindset isn't there. That's right. That's a great insight Yeah, right. You keep having these temporary things that come up, right? We just had our son It's gonna be tough for a while, right? I just went back to school. It's gonna be tough for a while, right? It's gonna be tough for a while forever

Unless you change the dynamic, right? Yeah, what do you want to do? You could again? It's up to you. It's your money. It's your res. It's up to you, right? What do you want to do? You could again, it's up to you. It's your money. It's your res. It's up to you. Right. What do you want to do? I don't think we should go. How come? We just can't afford it right now.

We have to worry about other things and. Yeah, I don't think we should go either. Well. Because we truly can't afford it. We would just be digging ourselves in a deeper hole that we're trying to get out of. And it goes back to like everything you were saying, like we're just going in a circle here. So it takes like a boundary to like say, hey, we need to stop. Love that. This is a boundary. I love that the two of you are doing it together. This

is a real discussion. I don't think we should do it. Here's why. It would be, you know, the next step is to say, what do you think? Right. But in this case, you two are totally aligned. So where's your phone? Over there. Okay. We'll grab it for you. And let's just send that text. Let him know. Boy, I'm interested to see. Yeah, there we go. Okay. You're making me be the bad guy. That's interesting. You're not a bad guy for setting a boundary. No, I know.

That's actually really interesting. Yeah. Person who sets a boundary is what? Like smart. Yeah. And responsible. Yeah. In fact, to me, that's somebody who's a hero.

That is the kind of hero that I want. Someone who says who says look we have a goal. This is what we're doing We're gonna say yes to this, but we're gonna say no to anything. That's not in our primary goal. I'm not the bad guy I'm the hero right and in this case both of you are the hero because you're deciding yeah now who sends the text? That's up to you, right? But approach it as if you're doing the right thing, not you're being the bad guy. Go ahead. I said, hey guys, I don't think we can make it to Terecia tomorrow. I'm sorry.

Okay. So the fact that you're both saying, no, we're going to put ourselves first, not this dinner. I think it's amazing. I think it's especially meaningful because you've gone to the city. There's sort of a... There's something very meaningful about this type of restaurant for you. And for you to say, no. We're coming first. I think that's really awesome. So great work. First of many boundaries.

Yeah. Okay. It's true. I feel good about the decision. Yeah. What do you want to do to fix costs? We need to get this number down. Well, like the glaring numbers, obviously the car.

I guess I'm really going to have to go and figure out what options I have to getting out of that car payment. Because everything else is just, it's not really, we can't do anything else. I definitely would love to get into a new car payment I just don't know like how to go about it I guess I would have to go to a dealership look at some cars and then see what options I have No, fuck that you're not going anywhere near Every time the two of you go into a dealership you end up buying another luxury car

I've never felt good leaving a dealership ever. Oh shocking. Yeah, it's really shocking. Wow. Yeah So no, what do you want to do? I don't know. Sell the car? It's going to suck. You're going to lose money. But over the course of 12 months, 18 months, 36 months, that's when you're really going to start to see those savings. And it's not like you're going to get a big fat check that says here you did the right thing.

It simply means that the amount you're paying towards your car payment is slowly going to go down. You're going to have a little bit more cash every month. And that is money that can be used for what? Credit card payments. Yes. Savings. All those things.

But it's going to feel horrible. That's the situation you're in. Yeah. Let's let's be conservative Remember how I always say like I want to be conservative with my assumptions. Let's drop this down by $1,000 so 1,295 and therefore your car payments per month become $1,495 that's like only Kevin's car right now. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, which is insane Well, first of all, what just happened to your fixed cost number?

Yeah, wow, it went to 67% Yeah, that's really good. We're getting close. We're in the right direction. Yeah So, what are we noticing with all these examples? That we have options that yes that there's definitely ways to work on things and get it done. Yes. What else? That I shouldn't be so hesitant to come up with an idea. Like if I think of something maybe I should just like say it instead of like, oh I don't know if that'll work.

I don't know. Yeah, I noticed a lot of self-censoring. Yeah. A lot of kind of digressions about I'm not trying to say this and I'm not trying to do that and not, not, not, not, not. A lot of kind of digressions about, I'm not trying to say this and I'm not trying to do that and not, not, not, not, not. A lot of ego protection instead of like, let me be straightforward. I'm not sure if this is the correct solution, but here's what I think. What do you think?

That's a discussion. Yeah. Can't dance around everybody's feelings the entire time. In fact, you're actually hurting both of you by not being direct. Right. Honestly, you could go out and eat at some nice restaurants and take some vacations and it'll be okay. What do you think would happen if you keep doing that?

We're just going to dig our hole deeper. Our debt's going to be, we're never going to be able to pay our debt. Yep. And something... God forbid something happens. God forbid something happens, then we're really gonna be screwed and then we're... What are you gonna do then? We're gonna have to sell the house, I don't know, move back home. Mm-hmm.

Two kids, move back home. Right. What else? Credit's gonna be super bad. Mm-hmm. Gonna have a hard have a hard time coming up from that. How's it going to affect your relationship? It's going to be horrible. We'll both feel really terrible.

We really just failed. Kevin, you agree? Yeah, I agree. If you were engaged with the money, Kevin, you would be able to open up the CSP, point out the fact that there is no specific vacation thing here, except there's zero dollars saved for vacations. And you would be adept at saying, look, right now it's not in our CSP. If we want to make a plan for it, we can make a plan for it. Let's talk about it. Where can we draw the money

from? But because you don't live in this world, you live in just a world of like, I don't know. What do you think? Okay, well, I trust you, you're the leader. You leave it up to her and she wants to go on the vacation, so she's going to go on the vacation. Do you see how that dynamic works? Yeah. You down with it?

You look a little hesitant. No, it sounds great to me. And that's where I want to get to. I want her to not have to check anything. Just trust in me that I can get it done. And I feel like if she gives me that opportunity, I can show her that I can't excel and do just that. If you create that opportunity for yourself, she doesn't have to give it to you. It takes discipline, holding each other accountable.

Uh huh. I'm excited about what we have like to kind of look at and move forward. I think that I think that we if we work together we'll be way better off to be honest. Yeah. And I think I think we're very capable. I mean're definitely capable of it, but I think so are you Communicating what's the dynamic today before we started talking? What was the dynamic separate separate? Yeah, and who did what what was the roles? the hero And I guess the villain The not the avoider. Yeah Yeah, the avoider. Yeah, uh-huh. And? I guess the villain. It was like the not, the avoider.

Yeah. The avoider, yeah. Yeah, the avoider. Yeah. Uh-huh. And the worrier. Yeah. The worrier. Worrying, yeah.

Living in the spreadsheet as well. Mm-hmm. You can now be saving thousands of dollars per month. Yeah. That sounds really good. Thousands. That sounds amazing. And actually it's a perfect time because you have a new baby, you're not going to be going

out to restaurants. In many ways this is the time to hunker down, focus on the family. Exactly. Right. Yep. Turn off the outside noise and build up a war chest. A moat where your family is protected. And more importantly the two of you are connected.

Right. What do you think? I love it. Yeah. Sounds really good. It sounds perfect. There's a path forward. That's what I see. Yep. Okay. So now what is the new dynamic? How would you describe it?

Like United. Yeah. United for sure. Love that. United. Super team. Yeah. Uh-huh. Strong. Yeah. Uh huh. Strong. Yeah. Love that for us.

And I think it'll be great and I know we could do it. So like that. Yeah. I mean, as long as you know that we're going to work together and get to where we need to be, that's all that matters. Not in here. Yeah. It's okay. We said it would get harder when the questions got harder.

Yeah. I thought Kevin and Michelle were extremely interesting. They have a very good income, but they have co-created a dynamic that is not serving them anymore. Now, while Michelle and Kevin did not send follow-up videos, I did receive this letter from them. Let me read it to you. We left the meeting feeling hopeful and optimistic about our financial future. The past couple

of days, we've been discussing options regarding selling our vehicles and paying off the loans associated with them. A family member is purchasing a new vehicle in the near future and he's willing to sell his old car directly to us instead of trading it in. Don't worry, it costs less than $15,000. Our plan is to buy this car and sell my Mercedes within the next two months. We are also looking at websites like Carvana and KBB to sell Kevin's car and then hopefully find another vehicle in the $10,000 range to purchase. Although we still have a lot more to work on,

just having this discussion together regarding our car situation has been extremely refreshing. We've been collaborating as a team on which car makes the most sense, what timeline we need to stick to, and most importantly, how we will manage our finances for the purchase of the new cars and the sale of the old ones.

Coming up with a plan together is a big leap in the right direction for us. We realize we have the sale of the old ones. Coming up with a plan together is a big leap in the right direction for us. We realize we have a lot of work to do. We have cut our guilt-free spending to only 10% and plan to keep that for at least a year. We've put together a debt payoff schedule. If we commit to spending only 10% of our income

for guilt-free things, putting an extra $1,000 monthly towards our debt, we can pay off our $55,000 loan in only one year and eight months versus the currently projected two years and nine months. This will free up over $3,000 a month for us in as little as two years, not to mention the $5,000 in interest we will save. We are committed to working on these financial changes together and setting boundaries when it comes to our friends and family and our finances.

Next on our list of things to tackle, we'll be cutting everyone off our Verizon phone bill, setting up automatic payments, which we plan to do together this weekend. We finally see a light at the end of the tunnel. We are excited that we are slowly untangling the tight knot we have created for ourselves, eager to move forward with our growing family. Thank you for all of your help. It was a pleasure meeting and speaking with you and your team.

Thank you, Kevin. Thank you, Michelle. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach You To Be Rich, my book, pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you the specific tactics

for how to build the I Will Teach You To Be Rich system into your personal finances.