I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 167. “We took a loan to pay off our credit cards—and maxed them out again”

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

Ashley is 29, Brandon is 30. They have been married for six years and have accumulated $261,000 in debt. Despite taking out a surrogate loan, they are still unable to have a baby. Ashley is desperate for a partner, but Brandon struggles to engage—at home, and in this conversation. This episode is brought to you by: Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions – and manage your expenses the easy way – by going to https://rocketmoney.com/ramit. Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at https://facet.com/ramit. Trade | Right now, Trade is offering our audience a free bag of coffee with any subscription at https://drinktrade.com/ramit. Pique Tea | Get up to 15% off and 12 tea samples at https://piquelife.com/ramit. Next Level Wardrobe | Dress like an elevated version of you. Take a free styling quiz at https://nextlevelwardrobe.com/ramit. Connect with Ramit • Get the Podcast Newsletter and exclusive Q&A about the show • Get Money Coaching with Ramit  • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube • Submit a question for the newsletter iwt.com/askramit  If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

Before we start today's show, I have a really exciting announcement that I've been wanting to share for a long time. On January 1st, 2025, I'm releasing a new book called Money for Couples. For the last three years, you've heard me on this podcast speaking to different couples every single Tuesday. I've spoken to over 170 couples on this show about their money psychology, the money messages they heard from their family, the peculiar dynamics that they have around money, where they get stuck, and how they can get on the same page. Well behind the scenes I've been working on

the definitive book to help couples get on the same page with money and that's what I wrote for you. It's coming out January 1st and in the book I'm going to share how to talk about money including the exact words to use, when to talk about it, how to teach your kids about money, even the exact agenda and account setup that my wife and I use in our finances. I'm going to share the tactics to make instant improvements, like how to set up your accounts to automatically work together and how to assess your financial health. And finally, you're gonna get a deeper understanding of money psychology in your relationship. And you're gonna discover why you and your partner see money differently and how to get on the same page. Now it's one thing to listen to couples

or watch couples every single week. I love doing that for you. But it's a whole different thing to be able to have the book and to be able to work through it with your partner. thing to be able to have the book and to be able to work through it with your partner. I'm so excited to get this book in your hands. You can pre-order it using the link iwt.com slash money for couples and stay tuned for a lot more on this book this year. Again, go to iwt.com slash money for couples to pre-order my new book

about getting on the same financial page as your partner. On our episode today. He kind of just wants to be able to spend. It's really hard for me to say no. Ashley is frustrated that Brandon isn't involved in their finances. Do you ever bring up money yourself, Brandon? Only if I want to purchase,

like when I was wanting to buy this snowmobile. She's 29, he's 30, and they are deeply in debt. We did a debt consolidation loan, paid off our credit cards, and then maxed out our credit cards again. I mean every single one of them over $100,000. They walk on eggshells, but their finances are getting worse and worse. We've always had this like, oh we're going to make money and then it's gonna be better and it's not. And soon they have an important decision to make about their family,

one where money will play a central role. We took out another loan to pay for a surrogate and we lost it and then the money was gone and there was no baby. She disempowers herself from having the final say in these important financial decisions. Ashley wants to pay off debt faster and you wanna live life. Is that the bottom line? Yeah. Guys, that's not a important financial decisions. Ashley wants to pay off debt faster and you want to live life.

Is that the bottom line? Yeah. Guys, that's not a functioning financial partnership. Ashley and Brandon have a fascinating story to share. One that I think is very common. This is going to be uncomfortable. Let's meet Ashley and Brandon. Right now our goal is getting out of debt.

I brought up the idea of selling a vehicle that is not a necessity. It's Brandon's truck. And it wasn't an argument necessarily, but just isn't something that we agree on because he doesn't want to sell it. Paint the picture for me. I work from home. So if I need a vehicle, I will get up in the morning and I will drive you to work and then I will have the vehicle for the day

and I will go pick you up. And I tried to problem solve needing two vehicles. You did not feel comfortable selling it. What do you say? He had reasons why, because we have a boat that we don't use. What? You have a truck and a boat? Okay, go on. A boat sounds fancy. It's not. And he does do some woodworking, builds garden boxes. And when he delivers them, he needs the truck to deliver them. And he just likes the truck.

If he wants to haul his snowmobile, he can't haul his snowmobile without the truck. If he wants to haul his four wheeler, he can't haul his four wheeler without the truck. Is this a joke? No. All right. Well, might as well just get a full inventory of all the stuff you own. A snowmobile, a four wheeler, a boat. What else? Pit bike. What? What is that? Oh, like one of those bikes on the deck goes on the dirt.

Yeah, it's like a dirt bike, but it's a smaller version. Okay. Okay. All right. Go on. So you suggested the gentle idea of perhaps selling the truck and then he said what? And it was always like, yeah, I don't think I want to sell it and that's Still where we're at with it. Okay All right Brandon, what do you remember about that conversation? she asked to sell it and I gave her the reasons why I didn't want to and I

enjoy having the truck for when I do need it. Do you ever bring up money yourself, Brandon? Only if I want to purchase like when I was wanting to buy the snowmobile. How did you bring it up? I told her that I had found the snowmobile and it was a really good price for what it was and that I enjoyed riding them when I was younger and just wanted to get back into snowmobiling. Is there an ask it there or were you telling her or what was the deal? She had looked over the budget and we ended up getting a little loan for it. And then when picked it up.

How much was this snowmobile? $2,500 bucks. What interest rate? Do you know? I don't know. Ashley? I don't remember. How long did it take you to pay off? Yeah, three or four years.

Oh, what do you think about that? Oh, I shouldn't have given my reaction the way. That's why I don't play poker. All right. Well, even knowing my reaction, what do you think about four years to pay off a twenty five hundred dollar loan? Looking back at it, I. Probably should have waited. Yeah. For what?

Till we had the money. So the primary challenge that you're both facing is you have debt and you disagree about how aggressively to pay it off. Is that right? Yeah. All right. Ashley, you want to pay it off. What? As aggressively as possible. So right now we're paying way over what our minimum payments are to try and get especially the credit card debt paid off as soon as we

can. That's kind of been my main focus because the interest rate is so high. And then after that we I have kind of a debt payoff schedule that's snowballing all of the payments. Okay. And Brandon? I was more of minimum payments just so we weren't strapped. Okay. Do you know how much you spend per year?

I don't know. I think we spend more than we need to. So I know that we could be putting more towards it. OK, but I know that Brandon has expressed. Not wanting to. Stop living and stop having some of the luxuries of life to pay off the debt that we've accumulated. So I'm trying to find some kind of balance between those two things.

Okay, why are you the one finding the balance actually out of curiosity? He doesn't really have any or doesn't seem to have any interest in figuring out the financial piece of it. Does that concern you? It frustrates me. It feels like it's all kind of on my shoulder sometimes to figure out how we're getting out of the debt or when because things weren't always what they are right now. Like salary wise or whatever. But when we have been in a worse situation,

I was always the one figuring out where rent was coming from or how we're paying the mortgage. And now I'm the one figuring out how we're going to pay off our debt. And he kind of just wants to be able to spend the money. Why are you the one doing it? He kind of just wants to be able to spend the money. Why are you the one doing it? I don't know why he doesn't want a piece of it. I don't know if he thinks he can't.

I try and get him to sit down with me to like pay the bills and do it together, but he just doesn't seem to be interested in doing it together. I'm gonna ask again, same question. Why are you the one doing it? I mean, somebody's gotta do it. We'll be right back. Trade Coffee is a specialty coffee marketplace that matches customers with the best coffees

from local roasters around the country. You take a short quiz, you share your preferences and trade matches you to personalize recommendations. It's a convenient way to experience small batch specialty coffees and support small businesses. The coffee is roasted to order and ships to you within 48 hours. Take a look at all these coffees that they offer.

I went to the site, I clicked on light roasts, but they also have dark roasts, they have single origin, and they have a new cold coffee subscription, which offers a rotating variety of the best iced and cold brew coffees, which you can make at home. This is a great summer option, and it keeps you caffeinated all year long. They have a bunch of roasters from all around the country, including some of my favorites

like Verve coffee, which I order when I'm in LA. Get a free bag of coffee when you give Trade a try. Visit www.drinktrade.com slash Ramit to subscribe. You'll get a free bag of coffee or more when you subscribe to one of their plans. And there's no risk. They guarantee you love your first coffee or they'll replace it. That's drinktrade.com slash Ramith to receive a free bag of coffee.

Drinktrade.com slash Ramith. I have this hilarious slash sad thing that happens to me almost every single week in my Instagram DMs. Somebody will write me, they go, hey, I'm paying 1.25% AUM to my financial advisor. I know you've talked about not paying a percentage to a financial advisor. I just wanna know if it's worth it or not.

Where can I ask you a question? I go, just join my money coaching program. It's like 69 bucks a month. I do live Q&A every single month. And they go, oh, well, I'm not really sure that I can afford that. Listen, the person writing me this exact question will probably spend over $100,000 in lifetime fees, but they are afraid to spend $69 for one month of money coaching. Now listen, I don't mind if they join my program or not.

That's not the point. The point is, isn't it fascinating that people would rather pay a percentage and not even know how much they're paying than to write a small check? That is how so many financial advisors charge by percentage and it costs you way more than you realize. I want to introduce you to our partners at Facet. They realized what's wrong with this AUM or percentage-based model, and they did something about it. They're making financial advice accessible to everybody. With Facet, you get flexible access to a team of financial planners,

CFP professionals, and a team of professionals providing guidance across retirement planning, tax strategy, estate planning, and more. And instead of taking a percentage of your portfolio, they charge an affordable flat membership fee. And Facet does not charge you to invest with them. Facet CFP professionals are fiduciaries, meaning they are required to prioritize what's best for you. Now, Facet will waive the $250 enrollment fee for new annual members, and they will

add $500 into your brokerage account when you invest and maintain $5,000 in the first 90 days of membership. Check out their new membership options at facet.com slash Ramit. Again, facet.com slash Ramit. If you are looking for a financial advisor, if you have a large portfolio, a complex tax

situation, or you need specific guidance on something like retirement planning, check out facet.com slash Ramit. Sponsored by Facet, Facet Wealth Inc. Facet is an SEC registered investment advisor headquartered in Baltimore, Maryland. This is not an offer to sell securities or investment, financial, legal, or tax advice. Past performance is not a guarantee of future performance. Terms and conditions apply. Let's get back to the conversation.

Brandon, what's your reaction hearing Ashley talk about how she describes herself taking on a lot of the financial burden in the house, the responsibility? I totally agree. responsibility. I totally agree. I guess I just felt like she had a more understanding and knew

how everything worked, I guess. Then like when she says, hey, we need to sell this truck, wouldn't you just go, sure, you're the one who runs the money. I'll do what you say. I mean, I guess yeah now I guess it's I've got a different look at things and realize that

There is a lot of debt that needs to be taken care of I do want to get on the same page and get it figured out on What can be done and try to be more involved with it, I guess. Okay. Ashley, did you know this? No, this is the first that I'm hearing this. So should we just make the debt payoff plan right now? I mean, that sounds good to me.

I mean, that was the least convincing thing I've ever heard on this podcast. Come on. You have a guy who owns a truck, a snowmobile and tons of other toys. He avoids money. He doesn't want to sell the truck. And suddenly in the first three minutes of our conversation, he says he wants to make a debt payoff plan. I don't buy it.

Not in a million years. One mistake here would be for me to simply take his comment at face value, bulldoze through some plan and then hand it over to them knowing that they are never going to execute on it. There's just not enough foundation yet. So I would rather slow down, try to understand what's going on here, even if it means taking more time, a lot more time to push him to get honest. I guess just growing up, I, we didn't ever have money to do anything or buy stuff. You grew up poor, right? Yeah.

Or buy stuff. You grew up poor, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. When you think about being a kid with your parents, what kind of phrases do you remember them saying about money when you were a kid? I heard a lot of just, we don't have money for that. I just thought that was how life was. Mm-hmm. thought that was how life was. And then after moving out and realizing that there is more than what I had.

Then that's what I just had a poor life growing up. He lived in an unfinished basement. His bedroom didn't have a door. Like, he just lived in a very different way than I did. Like their holidays were different. The first Christmas I was at his family, there were like five presents under the tree for three kids. You just felt like they just couldn't give to them. But I think it also was a combination of couldn't and wouldn't. Wouldn't means what?

I think they were a little more selfish with how they spent their money than how my family spent their money. So when they had money, they spent it on things like alcohol and cigarettes and things that his parents wanted and not things that they would go towards their kids. Brandon, what lessons did your parents teach you about money knowingly or unknowingly? There wasn't a whole lot of teaching. My dad had a notebook that he would write down like the bills and stuff and that's how he would pay them.

Ashley mentioned the alcohol, the cigarettes that your parents got. What do you make of that when it comes to spending back then? I didn't really think about it, but growing up as I got older, I realized that it wasn't something that they needed. It was just something that they wanted. What's the difference? That it wasn't a necessity Are you resentful at all? Yeah, I would say yeah just because They made it a priority To spend the money on that kind of stuff instead of things that we could have used

Okay How do you feel looking back on your upbringing? How do you feel about the money part specifically? Now I feel great. The money that we do have. Tell me more. What do you mean? I guess just being able to buy the things that I do have and being able to appreciate that stuff and having the opportunity to do those things that I enjoy.

Got the four-wheeler and storm mobile and stuff. All right. Um, and then I ended up losing my brother in 2018 and just thought that enjoying life was more important. Important than what? Paying off all the debt right away. Got it. Okay. Sorry about your brother.

Thank you. So after that happened, you already had debt at that point. And did you just accelerate your spending at that point? Yeah, I would say it got worse. Brandon learned that he has to live for today, like many people who grew up poor and his brother's tragic death obviously played a role as well. So my parents are divorced. So I had two households and they were managed very differently. My mom, it was just her in our house and it was definitely more difficult. She never would say anything about money, but I could tell in like how we would eat

dinner. Like I knew that if we were having like ramen for dinner, that that was like a time that things were tight. If we were having chicken, then I knew that that was like a good a good week that we had money to like have meat for dinner. Wow. Um, did you learn to pick up on these subtle signs and then regulate your own behavior and what you said to your parents? I mean, once I got to an age where I could tell that that there was a difference, I tried

not to ask for things unless I needed it. And I really tried not to ask for things just because I wanted it or just because it was cool to have it or because kids at school had it. I didn't have like the cool sneakers or the cool backpack or the cool clothes because it was too expensive.

So I didn't ask to shop at those stores. Like we would shop at Kohl's because their clothes were cheaper than shopping at Abercrombie or wherever kids were getting clothes from. What lessons did your parents teach you about money? Knowingly or unknowingly? To spend money when you have it. Oh, why is that? Spend money when you have it. Oh, why is that? Spend money when you have it because? Because you don't know when you're going to have it again.

So did you learn about anything long term related to money saving? I know it wasn't investing. Oh no. Saving? No. Okay. No phrases like put money away for a rainy day or something like that? No.

I'm asking because she dances around topics with Brandon. Like she said, I suggested a lot of things. I told him I would pick him up from work. And people who do this, they dance around, they walk on eggshells. They often learn it from one of their parents. And common examples are an alcoholic or narcissistic parent, although it doesn't always have to be that extreme.

But give me the bottom line here. What is it? Ashley wants to pay off debt faster and you want to live life? Is that the bottom line? Yeah. Can we back up and talk about what's really going on here? How long have you two been married? Seven years. OK. And how did you meet? Through Facebook. OK, cool. Were you did you grow up in the same area?

I know we lived an hour apart from each other. OK. What general vicinity was that? Minnesota. What age were you when you met Ashley? 1717. OK. And what was your financial situation between like 17 to 20? Not good.

Wasn't making a whole lot of money. She paid for a lot of stuff. Oh, everything. Everything. Whoa. Tell me about this. Dinner's movies, clothes, food.

Did you like that, Brandon? Not really, no. I wanted Brandon to get a job. He didn't have a job when we started dating. And? He didn't want to get a job. Huh? Why not?

His family is very different than mine. And I had a lot of ambition. And I had a lot of encouragement and motivation at home. Okay. They just wanted me to be home as long as possible, I think. Just like small town, we don't want you going away. For sure. Maybe you get some different ideas, but basically like family is important and we want to stay

a tight unit. Right. Right. Yep. and we want to stay a tight unit. Right. Right. Yes. I think we discussed it for a good, I don't know, six months before I was like, get her get off the pot, basically. And he did get a job that he biked to. How much did you make at that job, Brandon? I think I started off at like 575. Okay. Yeah. 75 an hour. All right. I don't care about

paying for anything. I cared about the intention behind him not paying for anything. Even if he paid for one out of 10 things. I was fine with that. I think he was doing something. Let's take a quick pause to support our sponsors. A lot of people know that I love spending money on convenience. But what I also love is combining convenience with another part of my life that I also love. For example, convenience and travel.

I have a travel advisor who can help me arrange my trips and even recommend certain trips for me to think about. Well, imagine if you're a tea drinker and you love convenience, you should check out this episode's sponsor, Peak Tea. Here's what one of my followers recently said about Peak. I do the monthly matcha subscription and I love it because I travel for work frequently and I can take the individual packets with me. Peak Tea sources organic loose leaf grade tea leaves and then cold brews them for up to eight hours to extract all the beneficial compounds. Then they use pressure and dehydration at low temperature to turn the tea into tea crystals. That process preserves up to 12 times the nutrient

content compared to other tea. And one of the best and most convenient things about Peak Tea is they don't require any prep. Peak dissolves in hot or cold water in seconds thanks to their cold brew crystallization, so you always have a perfectly brewed cup no matter where you are. They have many teas to choose from, from green and black tea, matcha, chaga, jasmine, ginger, oolong, and more. For a limited time, get up to 15% off plus a free quiver with 12 tea samples using my link peaklife.com. That's p-i-q-u-e-l-i-f-e.com. I remember doing an exercise on a money coaching call. I challenged hundreds of my students to find an extra $50 a month or an extra $100 a month. And they did it.

Some of them found 50, 150, 200 bucks extra per month. Guess where they found most of that money? In subscriptions. Subscriptions that they signed up for or forgot about don't even use. Now, most of us have a subscription that we have totally forgotten about. If you want to find those subscriptions and redirect that money to extra guilt-free spending, let Rocket Money help you. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow

your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in cancelled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash Ramit. That's rocketmoney.com slash Ramit rocketmoney.com slash Ramit. Now back to the show. Yeah, it's not about how much somebody makes down to the second decimal place. It's not about what micro percentage they contribute. It's about, are we aligned on values?

Do you want to work? Do you want to be a partner in this business? The business of running a household together. Yeah. So you basically created sort of a soft ultimatum or maybe it was a true ultimatum. Like get a job or get out. Was that it?

Yeah. Damn. it? Yeah. Damn. And it worked. It did. What do we all learn from this example? Anybody? What is it? Well, I think it was good that I was more firm. In expressing my needs, you told me you talked about it for six months. The only thing that got brand to change was what giving him an ultimatum.

Brandon, do you do receive that message? Yeah. You think that's true? Yeah, I do. Okay. Does she still pay for more? Um, I guess, yeah.

All right. What do you understand about your family finances? Um, that I never paid attention to it at all. Okay. So, uh, y'all got married. Did anything change with your finances after you got married? We did something big after we got married. Maybe you could say that. Bought the house. How much did the house cost?

$155. $155. Okay. But the house, how much did the house cost? One fifty five, one fifty five. OK, how do you decide that you were going to buy a house and also how much house you could afford? Can I interrupt for a second? Do you feel like you're being interrogated right now, Brandon? I feel like I'm pulling teeth to get answers out of you. I guess there is things I just don't know. Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is to call out the elephant in the room. That is true in business. That is true in personal life. Brandon has been replying to me with one word answers since we started talking.

Coming on here, talking about their financial details is uncomfortable. I get that. But I also know that they called me for help. My team prepped them, tells them exactly what to expect. We require them to listen to at least one previous episode and we give them multiple chances to say no before they ever talk to me. expect, we require them to listen to at least one previous episode and we give them multiple chances to say no before they ever talk to me. So anyone who comes on this show really, really wants to be here.

That's why it is extremely hard for me to work with someone if they're not present and they're giving me short one word answers. What I'm hearing is you two don't communicate about money a lot. Correct? Correct. We communicate about money when he tells me that he's frustrated that he feels like we don't have any money. How often does that happen?

Frequently. If we're making more than what we used to be, how come we're always so tight on money? And when you're asking Ashley that question, what are you hoping she tells you? I guess I was hoping that she would say that there is more money that we could be spending. I mean, I still want to be able to do stuff and not put ourselves in a place where we can't enjoy doing things, but still want to be able to pay off our debt worker.

Okay. I'll take you at your word. If that's what you want, I can help you do that. So you're willing to cut out some of the things that you are currently spending money on? Yep. Kind of an uncomfortable topic in relationships. Talking about ultimatums and boundaries and consequences. In many ways, feels a little icky.

It can even feel like parental childlike, you know? You give a child a timeout if they don't do something. We don't really want to think of our adult intimate relationship like that. And yet having standards is so important. So important. Having expectations. So important. I'm sure you have a bunch of expectations, but it seems like around money, maybe not. I have expectations that I don't want to express because I don't know if he will want to live up to them. If he doesn't, what then? I am afraid of what that means.

Brandon, do you have any financial expectations? I don't think so. I think he doesn't know. Enough about finances to have expectations. All right, actually, I think it's a fair point you make. Brandon may not know enough about personal finance in order to have expectations. Like, I don't know enough about cabinetry to have any expectations. Are you OK with that?

No, I'm not OK with them not knowing, but I don't want him to know that. Why? I will absorb that burden for him. Why? So I feel like it's my job to do that. Just like it was your job as a kid to tiptoe around your parents when money was tight and you didn't bring up certain things. Yeah, just like when Brandon came to you and said, you know,

you were sitting there and you said, I want to you to consider getting rid of the truck. And instead of telling him, I run the finances in this household. This is what we need to do. Let's have a discussion. But this is it needs to happen. You said, yeah, I could pick you up. And you know, it's not forever. And you're making all these kind of concessions and promises about the future to try to get him

on your side. And it never works, does it? No. What is the dynamic going on there? I'm not being assertive. Why? I want to protect how he feels. I don't want him to feel less than. I don't want him to

feel unworthy. I don't want him to feel like he should know something that he doesn't know when it's, I mean, it's not his fault that he doesn't know it because he just doesn't know it. And I don't want him to feel bad for that. And so I just absorb that myself. What are the consequences for your relationship? I take on a lot of that burden myself. And I think I hold a little bit of resentment because of that. What else? I wish we did it together. I wish we held that burden together. And there are things that I expect or I need that I don't voice my opinion on.

There are things that he wants or wishes that I don't agree with and I don't voice my opinion on. There are things that he wants or wishes that I don't agree with, and I don't voice my opinion on them because I don't want him to feel unworthy. He has felt that for so long. I don't wanna be the person to make him feel that way. It's pretty deep stuff. Let me check in with you, Brandon.

What are you hearing as Ashley says that? I know that she's a lot better at handling that stuff and believe that she has good intentions on getting us out of what we're in. That's just a story.

She's better at money because she's taking the time to learn a little bit about it, right? Yeah. But Ashley, are you great at money? No. It's actually the worst of all worlds. You've given her all the work, but you micromanage and say like, I want money for this snowmobile. I want money for this and I'm not going to sell the truck. You've put her in an impossible situation.

Do you see that? Yeah. And I also struggle with telling him no, if he wants to buy something. Because? Because I know how long he went without. And so when he asks if he can buy something, it's hard for me to say no. And he does work really hard. And so I know he deserves things.

You know, it's not that I, it's never that he doesn't deserve things. What's that word mean, deserve? It's been a common discussion that he feels that he doesn't get rewarded for his hard work. And so if he asks for something, I want to be able to reward him for that or be able to make him feel like he did a good job or he was enough or he did he's providing for our family or whatever it is that that's gonna make him feel good. Are you hearing what you're saying?

I hear it and I know that I shouldn't, but it's really, really hard for me to say no to it. How hard is it? Because if I'm looking at your amount of debt, you have $261,000 of debt. So it costs you $261,000 to not be able to say no. It's going to cost you probably $400,000 if you stop spending today. So it costs you $400,000 if you stopped spending today. So it costs you $400,000 to not be able to say no. Was it worth it? I mean, no, it wasn't. You know, you're actually not doing him any favors by taking all this burden on yourself

because if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, if something happened to you tomorrow, he knows very little about anything financial. Do you know why? Why he knows very little? Yeah, why? I control everything. You've taken on everything. Yeah, there's no reason.

Guys, that's not a functioning financial partnership. And I'm struggling with, I don't know if I'm supposed to be educating him. I don't feel like I'm supposed to have to, but I also feel like I have to because he doesn't know. You don't have to educate your partner about money. It could be you, it could be a book, it could be any number of things. But it's less about the supply, who educates and more about the demand. Does the partner want to learn about money? Brandon, I don't get the sense that you do. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Uh, I've never been anything that I've thought about, so. I don't mind if someone doesn't understand the technicalities of money or even the basics. A lot of us were never taught that. But I'll tell you that it's really hard to move forward if they don't wanna talk about money, or if they simply don't care. And we also need to acknowledge that Ashley plays into this dynamic.

She's effectively subsidized Brandon since they first met. I don't just mean financially, I mean handling the labor of the finances. Then she tiptoes around, offering concession after concession, disempowering herself, but ultimately never actually saying no. Ashley plays her role.

But this is really about Brandon. If he doesn't change, how can they ever be partners? Money is not just something like who's gonna water the plants. Money is something that will play a role in their relationship for every day until they die. Money will affect where they live, what they eat, their family, what they do for fun, their safety, even their daily stress level. Ashley is not only financially supporting her husband, she's shielding him emotionally and intellectually. And she disempowers herself from having the

final say in these important financial decisions, even though she is the one managing the day-to-day money. Now this is really complex stuff. I'm not a therapist. I always encourage my guests to see one. And that's exactly what I told Ashley and Brandon. And I genuinely hope that they do. There is another time sensitive issue around money that I want to talk about. We took out another loan to pay for a surrogate, but our credit wasn't great. So our interest rate is high and we went through the whole process. So we had a surrogate, like we went through everything. She ended up pregnant and we lost it and we went through IVF with her and the transfer didn't work and then the money was gone and there was no baby.

So we're paying that loan and we have no baby. I mean, I don't want to say I regret it, but we really were motivated to start a family. So I understand that you're thinking about starting a family and is there, what's the financial considerations there? It's expensive. We already, I mean, that is a large portion of our debt right now. We were using a surrogate and we had to take out a loan for it. Okay. It didn't work. So we have a loan that we're paying and obviously nothing to show for it. So for me, that is a big motivator to get our debt paid off.

So are you thinking of potentially after you pay off debt, potentially engaging with another surrogate? Yeah. Okay. And how much would that cost? It's probably going to cost at least $20,000 somewhere between 20 and $40,000. Okay. All right. So understand, and that is just a really expensive, emotionally difficult process. I'm sorry you had to go through what you've already

gone through. That's tough. Yeah. Fertility challenges, IVF, surrogacy. These are real concerns for families and their finances, and they are rarely talked about. We really need to shine a light on these important conversations. So I'm very grateful to Ashley and Brandon for bringing this up. Now let's take a look at their numbers. Assets $238,000, investments $42,460, savings just over $1,000, debt $261,214, total net worth $20,292. So I've gotten a couple of promotions.

So I started in 2018. The salary bump wasn't much when I actually switched jobs. But since then, through different promotions, I've gone from like $41,000 a year to 95. Damn. All right. Take the win. That's cool.

Yeah. That's $160,000 at age 30, basically. That's a lot of money. It feels good on paper. Yeah. Brandon, what do you think about that? It's a lot of money. Okay.

Where's it all going? We'll be right back after this short break. When I was in my early 20s, I was not into clothes. I wore free t-shirts from tech companies and I really did not want to seem like I tried too hard. But I started to realize that clothing is the first thing people see about you. They don't see how nice I am or how much I know about personal finance.

They see what I'm wearing. And like it or not, that shapes a lot of how people perceive you. Now, I take a lot of pride in the clothes I wear. And I love knowing that when I buy something, I'm gonna keep it for years and I know that the people who made it were paid well. I actually hired my wife who runs Next Level Wardrobe, a luxury personal styling company,

to style me for my Netflix show and all of my events including what I wear day to day for more casual outfits. If you're a professional who wants to dress better, maybe you recently got a promotion, maybe you've gone through body changes or maybe you're just tired of wearing the same clothes you wore in your 20s, I recommend you check them out. When you hire them to work with you, virtually or in person in New York, they'll help you clean your closet, buy the right items with the perfect fit, and they'll help you put together polished outfits you can wear to work. You'll be able to open your closet every single day and know exactly what to wear for every single event.

They'll help you look like an elevated version of you. And they work with professionals of all ages and sizes. I love the convenience. Next Level Wardrobe has over 125 star reviews from happy clients and they've been featured in the Wall Street Journal. Take their free styling quiz at nextlevelwardrobe.com slash Ramit. Elevate your style using nextlevelwardrobe at nextlevelwardrobe.com slash Ramit. That's nextlevelwardrobe.com slash Ramit.

Welcome back. Let's keep going. Well, let's take a look. Your fixed costs. What's that number right there, Ashley? 91%. That's pretty high. In fact, that tells me right there you're broke. And yet you do have all these gadgets and fun stuff you're doing, which means that it's

going to debt. You've built a flywheel where you're spending more and you're just building your debt up. And at this rate, you know, we can go into the numbers, but probably not be paid off for many, many years. Okay. Your rent, your mortgage is incredibly low. 1100 bucks. Amazing. Yeah. Fantastic. bucks. Amazing. Yeah. Fantastic. Car payments are 600 bucks a month. That's the truck. And that's our gas. OK, not bad.

What kind of truck? F three fifty. Oh, of course. You would need that to haul. At the time when we bought it, we had a camper. OK. And what happened we Needed a bigger truck than what I had for the camper, okay and

Then we sold the camper So what do you do with the truck now? use it for the boat or the garden boxes for delivery. Can I ask you a question? Like when you used to have the camper, how often did you use it? Like go camping or whatever. Twice twice total. What the f*** you? You bought a F350 because of two times of camping? I know no truck guy has ever answered this question, but I have to ask, did you ever

consider renting a truck for the two times to use the camper? No. Never considered it. How come? I always wanted a truck because I never had anything. And when I want something, it's. Is to have it. You've heard me previously say that we can simultaneously acknowledge personal responsibility and the need for structural changes. Well, here we have both of them.

Brandon grew up poor. That affects how you experience money, how you see money, how much you know about money. For example, I can promise you his family was not teaching him about a Roth IRA. But we also see that he's made a series of bad choices. Who buys a Ford F350 to go camping twice? And all of these things without actually understanding or even caring about the financial consequences? The truth is he hasn't really faced any financial consequences. Ashley absorbs them for him.

And even on today's call, he's not really engaging with me. He's sitting back, waiting for me to either fix this situation or to end this conversation. What I realized is I needed to recalibrate this relationship so he takes an active role in it and I am not leading it. Now if you could afford it, I say, God bless. Fantastic. Do it. Spend more.

But you can't. Like looking at it, it is so obvious. We haven't even gotten to the bottom of the CSP. It's so obvious. And forget about the numbers. Look at your wife. What does she look like right now? If you're looking at her.

Disappointed. What else? Sad, frustrated. It's like pretty serious. Do you see that? Yeah, I'm here because I'm trying to help. Again, you guys called me. I want to help. I have a lot of time for you both. I understand that the way you grew up was I didn't have a lot. And so the minute you started earning money, you wanted to spend it on things you love. I get that. It's a very simple story.

A lot of people have gone through that story. The problem is you can't afford it. And you have a massive disconnection with your wife over money. Where do you want to go from here, Brandon? Be more involved. So I'm going to finish the numbers and then I'm coming back to you, Brandon, because you're going to tell me what kind of plan you want to make. All right.

Yep. Your debt payments are $3 one hundred and eleven dollars per month. It's not like minimum payments that includes additional money that we're putting towards debt to get that paid off. All right. How much extra are you putting? So that number to the right. Basically, let's just say two 2000 bucks a month and you're paying yeah, approximately 3000 a month. So you're paying extra thousand dollars a month. Yeah.

All right. I respect that. And that's really the source of a lot of tension. Ashley, you're saying I want to put this money so we can pay it off fast. And Brandon is saying. He would like to maybe not put that whole amount. We're going to recalibrate this relationship. It's been me asking questions.

Now it's going to be you telling me what you want to do. Go ahead, Brandon. I have no idea. So what's the solution here? The solution is not just to be like, oh, I give up and like, let's just keep doing what we're doing because the path you're on is worse in the future. So can I jump in on?

No, because actually you could solve this problem. You could have solved it years ago. But the problem is you have very murky lines between the two of you. Okay. If you just want to run at home, financially speaking, then run it. But you're doing the thing where you kind of run it, but then you feel bad and you give Brandon all this money and Brandon can knows what to say to get you to be like, oh, he's done well.

He deserves it. Nobody deserves anything with money. Okay. Yeah. So Ashley, no, I don't want your answer because you could have run stuff a long time ago. If this is going to work with the two of you, Brandon has to rise up as a teammate. Otherwise, two of you can do this separately. I've worked with a lot of couples in situations

like yours. I always ask him, do you want to make no changes, small changes, or really big changes? What do you all say? What do you say? Changes. Huh? What? Big changes. OK. And Ashley? Big changes.

By the way, Ashley, I love that you asked him first. That was great. All the truck can get rid of the car tractor. All right. You want you want to see what happens if we do that? Let's try it. I like that. That's that's an idea. Where number what number should

I change? Car payment. Yep. And right now it's five hundred ninety six. What should I make it? I don't know what that would go down to. Need you to give me an approximate number. No one's going to do it for you. You got to come up with it.

Under dollars. Great. That took your number down. If you noticed, this was used to be 91 percent. Your fixed costs. Now it's 85 percent. That was a big deal. Let's do it again. What else you got? The car factor. All right, you want to zero that out? Yeah. All right. You sure about that? Yep, okay that takes us down to 83% all right, what else?

I don't know. I want to invite you Ashley to speak really honestly, maybe more honestly than you've ever spoken before. Sometimes it's really helpful to have a third party. Is there something on your mind actually right now that you want to just Have a conversation with your husband I want you to want to be involved. I don't need you to know everything I want you to to know everything. I want you to want to look into the future. And I don't just mean like paying off our debt. I mean, saving for things like house repairs,

like vacations, like big purchases that you want vacations, like big purchases that you want or that I want or that we want for our family. I want you to want to be interested in your retirement. I don't know everything. I'm not gonna pretend like I do. I'm learning it right along with you, but I'm learning it alone. And I don't want to learn it alone. I want to learn those things together. I don't want you to rely on me to make all the money. I don't expect you to ever earn a certain amount. But I don't want you to go into any job situation thinking like, oh, actually, we'll just pick up the slack. It's fine because

Ashley makes enough money. I'll just take a pay cut because Ashley makes enough. Like, I want to do this for my family. Sorry. You can go through life sitting back like this and I get the sense that's what you wanted to happen today. Oh, Ramit Sethi is coming here. Ramito fix it. Fix me. And then you just kind of sit back like this. And I get the sense that's what you wanted to happen today. Oh, Ramit Sethi is coming here. Ramito, fix it. Fix me. And then you just kind of sit back and wait.

This is your life. This is your not just your rich life. This is your debt. Talking about family planning. Get up. Lean forward. Take initiative. Do you guys really want to do this?

I want to. OK, what do you want to do? Do you I mean, do you want to? Yeah. I want to be in this together and be able to go through all this and hear out the game plan. Tell me what you want to do. I don't know.

But truck is the only thing that has a payment. You can still have an asset even if it doesn't have a payment. Truck still has payments. What else? What else do you own? House? Yep. What else? Mobile four wheeler. Uh huh., bike. Yep. What else? Car. How much would the snowmobile sell for? I'm lucky. 1500.

All right. And the four-wheeler? Probably the same. 1500. And the boat? Probably around the same. 1500. And the boat probably around the same fifteen hundred and the pit bike. Six hundred bucks, maybe. All right. That's five thousand one hundred dollars.

Right there for all that stuff. It's a decent amount of money. What about that truck? Maybe a grand. How much you owe on that? I don't know. Ashley. Thanks.

Thirteen thousand one hundred dollars. The truck plus the snowmobile, the four wheeler, the boat and the pit bike. Quite a bit of money. Mm hmm. You look torn. I guess. Yeah. Why?

Because that's stuff other than the truck is paid for and enjoyment. This is where you have to decide on what is the most important thing to you right now. So last year you sold garden boxes and you didn't know if you wanted to do it this year. And I would be know if you wanted to do it this year. And I would be okay if you wanted to wait to sell these extra toys. If you wanted to commit to doing something else on the side to make some extra money instead. If the truck still went.

Why why do you say that? I don't I don't want to like just out you but just emotional things and I don't want to see all of the things that he takes enjoyment out of be taken away from him and see him kind of slip back into those like darker places. Brandon, what do you think about that? That salad. Feel comfortable? I don't want you to feel pressured.

It's not my money. It's your money. It's your stuff. I want to do that. And I actually, I. I want to do that. And I Actually, I know you want to but Brandon, I'm not getting that from you. Yeah. I do want to do that. It's just been a different perspective on life after losing my broker. That you want to, I could be gone tomorrow. So that's why I have the things I have to enjoy life.

I can understand that. I mean, I can't understand the kind of pain you went through. I never lost my brother, but I can understand how it changes everything for you. None of us listening can understand what it's like to lose a brother. That shatters any reality you had before. It's no surprise to hear Brandon admit that he wants to live more for now than for tomorrow

because he doesn't know what's going to happen tomorrow. I'm sorry that Brandon had to go through this and if you have experienced any kind of loss in your life, I would highly encourage you to speak to a therapist. It makes perfect sense. I see why you have the things you do. It makes perfect sense. I see why you have the things you do. If that is what you want to do, then maybe that is your journey, but that's not what Ashley wants. And the two of you are married and you're talking about kids. I think we could have so much more.

Like I know you see what we have right now and you see these things, but I think if we buckled down and got this taken care of, like we don't make a bad income. And if we got our debt taken care of, like I, we could have so much more. I'll show you. I totally agree. Ashley. I think you you don't actually, Brandon, understand the vision of how awesome of a life you could be living. Let's say we get rid of these debt payments. All right, pay these freaking things off.

Your fixed cost just dropped to 42%. That's amazing. That means, well, first of all, you can start investing much more aggressively. You could be investing. Oh my God, look at that. You could be investing 24, $25,000 a year. Okay. While still having more money to spend on the things you love more than you have right now. This debt is killing you. That's why it's driving me insane when we're sitting here agonizing over simple decisions because I see what's possible for you more than even you see it. $2,000 a month just to give you a sense of how much that turns into. I know this isn't even going to seem real, but I'm just going to show you anyway.

I think that's important because I don't think he realizes either what that would turn into investing it, because I would love to retire early and be able to experience life later together, too. So if we just take, you know, some basic numbers here, you have $42,000 invested. Let's say you put in $24,000 a year, which is very realistic. After you pay off your debt, like extremely realistic, you could actually put in more than that right there. That's worth $4 million.

By the time you're 65. That's a lot of freaking money. Let's make it 30. Let's say it takes you a few years to pay off your debt. You're still talking about 2.7 to $3 million. Now, Brandon, when I say that number, what goes through your head? That's a lot of money.

What else? We could be living life a lot different. Like what? Traveling. I know Ashley really wants to do a lot more traveling and we could take a lot more trips and go on fishing or snowm wheel trips or whatever. Bingo. Now you're getting it. I feel like you're something just happened. Am I the only one feeling this energy right now? I feel like his whole face changed.

What the f*** is going on right now? Brandon, tell me. I saw the numbers and what they could be. And then what happened? That changed how I feel on getting this debt paid off. Tell me now, what do you want to do? Sell it. Sell what? Tell me. Everything.

Yes! Right now it's just you have this huge cloud over you. And everything you do is about the debt. Can we eat this thing at the grocery store? What about our debt? Can we, let's dream we can't because about the debt. Can we eat this thing at the grocery store? What about our debt? Can we let's dream we can't because we have debt. It's all debt all day. And yet neither of you wants to do the things that are going to get you out of debt. Yeah, I can't do it for you.

But you can. I don't know, I think we were resistant or in denial. Are you in denial right now? No, I'm fully aware that we have screwed up and screwed up and screwed up. Brandon, how about you? Yeah, I definitely see it. I was honestly shocked at how fast things changed in the last few minutes of this conversation.

If they're excited, I'm excited, because sometimes you just need to see that it's possible to live a rich life to shake you out of being stuck. Let's listen to their followups now, starting with Ashley. I was really surprised with how our conversation with Rameet went. I didn't think it was gonna be so deep

and so much about our relationship and our communication. And it was, and so that's the thing we're tackling first. We've decided we're gonna sign up for couples counseling. I think that's gonna be so great, not just with financial communication, but just our communication in general. My greatest takeaway was for me said you know this is going to be uncomfortable and even though it was my idea to attack our debt I also didn't want to be uncomfortable and

there were certain things that I didn't think to get rid of or I didn't want to get rid of certain, you know, subscriptions or things like that. And I wasn't willing to be uncomfortable. And it really hit me that I need to be. It's time to be uncomfortable. We've canceled the subscriptions. We're going to sell the toys. We're going to sell the truck.

We're going to focus on our communication, getting our debt paid off, putting our extra income towards debt, and then 25% towards savings to build that up, and really just kind of build a strong foundation of our relationship, our communication, and then getting this dang debt tackled, paid off, and then after that, we're gonna be comfortable and really just have a better relationship all around.

Extremely powerful. What a moment when she acknowledges that change is going to be uncomfortable and she realizes that she's spent years trying to avoid being uncomfortable. I am so happy hearing Ashley's update. And now let's listen to Brandon's follow-up. After our meet with Rameet, I realized that there is a lot about our financials that I didn't know and that I need to know about. We have have agreed to go to couples counseling with Ashley. I'm hoping that they both make a change and they both do it as a team. Ashley has been the leader for so long that she truly needs a teammate.

Now, Brandon can acknowledge where he came from, what has happened in his life, and he can also choose to create a new chapter of his life together with Ashley. I wish them both the very best. Thank you very much for watching and for listening. I've gotten some feedback recently that I seem to only talk to couples who make a ton of money and struggle spending it. I want to tell you that I am listening to your feedback. I hear your comments, I see them, and I appreciate every single one of you who listens and watches

the podcast. In terms of our couples, I'm really proud of the diversity on this podcast. We go out of our way to find couples with different incomes, ethnicities, sexual orientations, geographies, ages. And my goal is to be as inclusive as possible, to show you every single different type of couple out there when it comes to money and relationships. Because I want you to be able to take the lessons that they share and apply it to your life. As a result, my team and I are always looking for diverse couples to apply for this show. If you make less than six figures,

if you have a different situation that hasn't been addressed on this podcast, I want to hear from you. Please go to IWT.com slash apply and share your situation with us. Remember that my team and I would love to share your story with everyone who listens and watches this podcast. Thanks again for watching and thanks for your feedback. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you haven't read I Will Teach You To Be Rich, my book, pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I Will Teach You To Be Rich system into your personal finances.