I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 20. “My wife is going to divorce me unless I can stop being so cheap”

Episode Date: November 30, 2021

Charles and his wife, Michelle, are worth $10 million, and he earns over $2 million a year--but he’s cheap. So cheap, he still insists on sharing someone else’s Netflix password.  Michelle has been pushed to the limit. Divorce is on the cards unless things change. She wants to start with landscaping the backyard, but I want to investigate the roots of this invisible script that’s costing him his marriage.  There’s 21 years’ worth of scar tissue to heal here. Let’s dig in.  Connect with Ramit Website Instagram Twitter Facebook YouTube Linkedin If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

You're netting 80,000 a month and you're questioning my audible $12 subscription every day. There's a problem here. We file our taxes jointly and I had to sign for taxes recently. Couldn't believe my eyes. I didn't even know how much we made. I had to sign $175,000 per month. My yard is in shambles. There's no reason for this.

When we fly, we fly as basic economy as we can. When we say in hotels, it's the cheapest. I am cheap. I am frugal. I am cheap. There's no mistake about that. And the real clincher here is that because he earns the money and physically has more he earns the money

and physically has more access to the money, he directs it. He manages it. I do believe that he wants to change. I do believe that he realizes the damage that has been done. I'm not optimistic that he can actually do it. Hi, I'm Ramit Sayte and welcome to the I Will Teach would be rich podcast. I recently got a message and I have to read it to you.

Here's what it said. We have a $10 million net worth and a $2.5 million income and we still share a netflix password. Please help my wife of 21 years is threatening divorce. Well, today I'd like you to meet Michelle and Charles. Both are in their early 50s, and as I looked into their numbers, they actually earned more than he initially mentioned. They make $3.1 million per year,

mostly from a full-time job, but also from sitting on boards and investments. Their total assets are $11.3 million with a couple million bucks in mortgages. And yet, Charles is cheap. So cheap that his wife, Michelle, has threatened divorce. And on today's episode, you're gonna hear about their landscaping, their travel, and

their children's mattresses. This is one of the most fascinating conversations I've ever had about money. As you listen to Michelle and Charles, it's going to be easy for you to get mad. At some point today, you're going to scream out loud, if I was a multi-millionaire, I would never worry about money. But I want you to stop thinking like that. When was the last time you actually heard real people with over ten million dollars? Talk about how they really feel. Never! First, we should congratulate Charles and Michelle for being courageous enough to talk to me. And second, the real lesson is that if you feel nervous or anxious or fearful about money,

you're still going to feel that way even when you have ten million dollars. One last thing, you can only hear conversations like this on the I will teach you to be rich podcast. So please please tell your friends about this. Now let's get to it. Charles, you sent me a message recently and I would like to read off the message. What was going on when you sent that to me? So you wrote, we have a $10 million net worth and $2.5 million income. And we still share a Netflix password.

Please help in all caps. My wife of 21 years is threatening divorce. Charles, what was going on when you wrote that message to me? We're having a very toxic discussion about money. It's very argumentative. And I have my views about money. Michelle has discussion about money. It's very argumentative. And I have my views about money. Michelle has reviews about money. And I could frankly say that I have been unfair.

I have been selfish. And I want you to help me in two ways. I want you to help me give me the tools to talk to my wife about money in an open and transparent way. And number two, I want you to teach me how to live a rich life. I know you say you can't help she people, but I am cheap. I'm frugal, I am cheap. There's no mistake about that.

And there's certain things that I feel I don't want to spend money on, right? I bought a fancy car a couple years ago, paid all cash, a fancy car, I'll invest in that. Like a car, it was more like luxury, right? I mean, it's a Tesla luxury because I didn't look at that as luxury. I mean, he's a tech executive who bought a used Tesla with the lowest battery power. That's not a luxury to me. He originally signed up for the $35,000 Tesla until we found out what the actual body looked like and then he's like upgraded a little bit. This really sets the tone for today's episode. Charles thinks one thing, Michelle thinks another, both of them are extremely confident about their perspectives.

This isn't like talking to two people who are ignorant about money, shy to talk about it, not at all. This is going to take a totally different approach from my end. Listen in. I paid a lot of money to rev it the garage to work out in the gym. I paid money for that. But I'm not gonna pay more than set amount of money for a pair of jeans. I'll buy it from Costco, right?

I don't value the jeans or shoes, et cetera. There are probably more areas where I'm cheap and a lot less areas where I am a bit extravagant. You like being cheap? I don't. I think that it's been wearing on me because I tend to think about price and money too often and I found myself distressing myself about too much. When you get a good deal, what does that feel like? It feels great. Like if I am an investor, when I get like a great like rental property, I love it. When I get a great at, I go to the dollar store.

I load up on good deals here. I just love the feeling of the fact that I got a good deal. You got a $10 million net worth. You walk into the dollar store. What are you getting in the dollar store, by the way? So the thing where I find good value in the dollar store is light bulbs, batteries, and frozen fruit for my spoons. When I comparison, I personally shopped that at Whole Foods, it's almost 2X.

I just have to make a guess. Is it blueberries that you're buying at the dollar store? And what is it about rich people in blueberries? Do you know how many rich people I've talked to? They'll not pay more for blueberries? This is crazy. We're going to have to get into that another time, but there's something going, cosmic going on here.

Okay, so you walk out, you got your bag with your light bulb and your blueberries, and what are you feeling when you walk out of there after making a $7 purchase that otherwise would have been $21 somewhere else. It's that feeling of money well spent, right? It's not wasted. And so I feel that like I cringe whenever Michelle throws food away because it's money down the drain. I have a suspicion here.

I wanna know about the people around him. Like who is he sharing this feeling of getting a good deal with? Who's reinforcing it? Is Michelle in on it too? And do you share that feeling with anybody else? What do you mean? Like, do you come home and tell Michelle,

oh my God, look at this deal I got, or is it just for you? I tell Michelle often, but she doesn't quite like get as excited as I do. So I'll tell my other friends like I got some college buddies out here that my dude's with the Nate. They really they appreciate it more than Michelle. Michelle I'm curious to hear what it's like when Charles comes home with this bag of light bulbs and tells you about the price that he got on it. Have you had this experience before? Initially when he would come home for the dollar store

I would just kind of laugh and you know just chalk it up as you know That's another notch of his cheapness and I would you know swear that I would never do that I mean I'm a whole foods kind of girl, but ironically I went one day I was kind of wow this this is a good deal. But there's a caveat. It depends on what you get. Because to me, there's a cheap at what cost. So there are certain things that were just not brand names. There was a cost to that.

Frozen fruit, that's the same everywhere. But even though there was a good feeling for it, it was on very few items. And I just figure, that doesn't affect me. If he wants to shop dollar store, that's fine. It's not something that I want to do on a regular basis but I wasn't as affected on that as I as I am on other things. When I have these conversations I'm always looking for a clue that's going to open up something deeper. It's like finding a secret entrance in Super Mario. If I find it it can take me to that secret underworld where the real truth is. You know, I suspected that Charles' cheapness might be motivated

by people around him, but that's not it. So when you're talking about money with your partner, it takes a lot of gentle searching for clues. But notice, if you can't find it, just move on. That's what I'm going to do right now. I'm going to switch approaches and I'm going to try to find out when this started affecting their relationship. Before marriage. So the night before our marriage, so we're planning the wedding and everyone's responsible for whatever thing.

And he comes to me the night before the wedding and says, did you bring your checkbook? I'm like, no, and all the friends, how can I bring my checkbook? And I was like, why? He's like, because you have to pay the musicians. I'm like, what difference does it make? We're getting married tomorrow. And that stuck with me.

I almost called the wedding off because I just felt like who, we're getting married, we're going from separate to joint. Why would he ask for my checkbook? And so that's been the theme for 21 years. Sometimes I refer back to that, like the checkbook moment and that's been a problem. So this started very early.

For me, there was never enough being with my husband. It felt like we were always in deficit. So even though most people are broke in college, I don't think he was broke. I think I was only broke when he's never been broke in the sense of lack of money. I think it was just this feeling of we don't have enough, we don't have enough,

but the numbers always showed that we did have enough. He would always make me feel and put this buzz in my ear that it's not enough. We don't have enough money. We have to be more frugal. I think that's fair. I think that looking back, I had more of a scarcity mindset as opposed to an abundance mindset.

But I think the biggest difference was, I'm very intentional. And so in my mind, if there's no agreement or a plan and how to spend the money, then there's no cap. And so I get worried. And so if you say we're going to spend 100 bucks on groceries or whatever, then that's 100 bucks. I'm good with that. If you say, I don't want to agree on that,

I'm going to spend whatever I want, I'm going to be nervous because every expense like, when is this going to end? And so that's kind of what led to, I guess, the friction between, you know, spending plan, no spending plan, being frugal and kind of having that scarcity mindset. There was never, in my mind, agreed upon plan and how you want to spend the money. There are so many insights in what we just heard. Michelle mentioned that she's felt this sense of scarcity since

the day they got married. When you're young and you don't have much money, that makes sense. But a lot of us hope that once we're more financially comfortable, that scarcity will change. What you're learning is that simply adding more money doesn't automatically change your feelings about money. Then you heard Charles say that he wants a plan. He used words like worried or I'm going to spend whatever I want. Notice how emotionally charged these ideas are. Nervous, friction.

When is this ever going to end? Also notice how it's all focused on what can go wrong. But it's never focused on what can go wrong, but it's never focused on what can go right. And 10 million dollars later, he still feels the same. Okay, let's play this out for a second. Let's take jeans. Yep. I'm gonna give you a couple different plans

and you tell me how you feel about it. Okay. All right, we're gonna spend 50 bucks on your next pair of jeans. How do you feel? That's okay, it seems okay. Okay, we're gonna spend $250 on your next jeans. I don't think it's worth it, I wouldn't do that. Why is that?

I think that that doesn't feel like a good way to spend $2.50 bucks. I'd rather spend it someplace else. Like what? I've been looking to get to some air pod pros. I tell you what, with my conference calls, it works. I'd prefer to spend money on that and then go without jeans. I'll tell you what, we'll get you the AirPods and the $250 jeans. How do you feel about that? Again, I think the AirPods may be worth it, but the jeans just seems like it's the waste of money.

Okay, okay. So it's not the plan, it's the amount as well. I think so, yeah. Cause I just gave you a plan. I told you exactly how much we're going to spend. You did you were not having it. Yeah, I think that's right. The most dangerous three words that I've heard for 21 years is in my mind. It's whatever he makes up his mind. So in his mind, $50, $250 is too much for jeans. It's not based on anything. It's not based on him shopping and seeing the different range. It's not based on, you know, analysis reports on jeans. It's not based on anything. It's not based on him shopping and seeing the different range.

It's not based on, you know, analysis reports on jeans. It's just in his mind, that's too much. So he has like an eternal compass of what things should cost versus what they really cost or what the quality of it really costs. You ever heard stories about people who go out with their parents and they go to dinner and their parents are still tipping like 5% or 10% and you're

just like, no, dad, we can't do that anymore here. I'm going to slip in extra 20. Have you ever heard stories like that? Yeah, I have, yeah. Do you think that that's possible for your internal compass around things like jeans? Yes, and no, I think that there's two parts. One is the internal compass could be updated, but I think that there are certain things that I just don't put value on in certain things that I do. And so, and so I think it's a combination of both of those things. That was a very good answer from Charles.

It was very logical what he said. Did you catch it? Hey, sure, I could probably update my internal compass, but also I just value certain things and I don't value other things. Sounds so logical, right? That comment would slide by 90% of people. But there's just one problem. Charles' wife is about to divorce him. All the logic in the world is not working. Watch me now, as I sharpen my questions, so that he starts to truly internalize

the consequences of his beliefs. Fair enough. I agree also. There are certain things I just don't care about. And some people look at me like, why would you not buy that? You can easily afford it. And I just don't care. That's not important to me.

Exactly. So, my question Charles is, what is the cost of your beliefs? I think it's cost to me quite a bit. What is the cost of your beliefs? I think it's costing me quite a bit because I think that I wanna have a partner in my marriage when it comes to the money and the investments. I wanna be able to work with somebody to do that. And my belief has caused a huge wedge between my wife

and I. And so it's costing me quite a bit. It's costing me harmony in my home. It's costing me my wife and I. And so it's cost me quite a bit. It's cost me harmony in my home. It's cost me my wife's happiness and it's cost me a lot of stress. And so that's why I'm trying to try to figure this out. So it's cost me quite a bit. Well, I hope it's not too late, but I want to turn this around. I want to loosen the purse strings. I want to start to provide my wife with the thing is that she wants. And I've been trying to do this on my own, but I've been having trouble.

Like, for example, I try to do your $100 challenge, it turns to a $1,000 challenge, and I failed miserably. I couldn't find anything to spend $1,000 on. You couldn't find anything to spend $1,000 on. No, I failed. I failed. His idea of spending is spending to make more money and then make more money. I'm constantly saying like, why do you need more money?

Oh, because I want to invest more money. Well, why do you need that? Why do you need that? At some point you die and you're just doing this to give it away to other people. So his beliefs, if he were a single guy, would be fantastic. It's his beliefs. He can do what he wants. It's his money, value, all that can be his. The problem is that we're married. And what he finds, what his beliefs are,

he doesn't realize that they affect me immensely. So they have, I mean, literally to the point where it's broken my spirit. I mean, the reason why we're coming to you now is because after all these years, it's just too much. I mean, I remember another podcast you did and you asked them to rate it from zero to 10. We're at a nine. We've been at a nine and a half for many years, maybe the last 10 years. And I just can't take it anymore.

And so, even though he was the one who initiated the call, I was totally on board because we just need some guidance. And we've talked in therapy. It just, it always ends with the same mindset that he has. You have children? We have kids, yes, teenagers. Do you think that them getting ready to start thinking about college is perhaps also bringing this more

to the surface? And for me, yes, because my kids have seen my cheapness. They'll, if you ask them if I'm cheap, daddy's cheap. They say yes he is. And I don't want that to take how they view and think about money as well. And so I try to give them the right kind of tools, like accounts and talk about investments, et cetera.

But I don't want my cheapness and my issues to kind of rub off on them. So that's part of why I want to try and get this resolved. So they can really have a good chance at being good with money. And I have a different perspective. So on money, I want them to know how to live abundantly. I want them to know that their hard work has a payoff.

I want them to be able to live life where, yes, they can save and understand money, but at the same time, they could do things that they otherwise could not do. It is really, really hard for people to turn the page in their rich life. Let me explain what I mean. For highly successful people like Charles, all of their skills of saving and investing and planning and optimizing got them to the top of the mountain. So from the outside, you look at them and you say,

you made it. Why are you agonizing over $200 jeans? But to them, they see the very skills that got them here as identical with themselves. They can't separate the desire for success from themselves. So I can sit here and repeat, turn the page, what's your rich life? It doesn't mean anything to Charles yet. Michelle can even say, I'm about to divorce you, and it still doesn't really hit home.

This identity is deeper than money. It's deeper than relationships. It goes to the very core of who Charles is. By the way, I sometimes ask people on my newsletter, what would you do if you had a hundred million dollars? The answers are so fucking depressing. Half of them say, I'm already living a great life. I wouldn't change a thing. I know they're trying to signal that they're happy, but I consider this almost a criminal lack of imagination to not know what you would do with essentially unlimited money, not even a single, amazing trip, not even taking your family to create an unforgettable memory. I'm not impressed.

Half of the people respond, pay off my house, they invest the rest. For what? You fucking won the game. You have a hundred million dollars. And now you want to invest more? These are the kinds of answers people give when they haven't really thought through their rich life, when they haven't given themselves room to dream. Now there's just one more catch with Charles here. He actually has that kind of money and yet he can't stop making more of it. I get a lot of questions from people who have used my book.

They've automated their finances, they've set their investments up. They go, all right, I did the basics. What's next? And when you've made a lot of money, you'll notice that there's not a lot of advice specifically for you. The blog posts that are typically focused around people who are just starting off or even people in debt do not really apply to you anymore. And it can also be embarrassing to ask. You can't really post about certain topics when you have money because your friends don't know how much you make and nobody really wants to hear about how do I take cooler vacations or what do you all do for tax optimization? Because the

first response is, oh rich people problems. I don't like that phrase because rich people problems are problems nonetheless. How are you supposed to find someone you trust, whether it's an accountant or a travel advisor? The usual advice that you find on Google doesn't really apply at a certain level. So if you've made a big jump in income or net worth and you wish you had a community of people who just get it, I want to introduce you to today's sponsor Long Angle. The Long Angle community is composed of high net worth individuals with diverse backgrounds in technology, finance, medicine, real estate, law, manufacturing, sports, media, and more. I'm a member of this community.

There are so many interesting members of the community and the majority of them are first generation wealth. They're young, highly successful individuals, and they join the community and the majority of them are first-generation wealth. They're young, highly successful individuals, and they join the community to share knowledge and learn from each other, to get confidential, unbiased support, knowledge, sharing, and networking. And you can do it online through their digital platform, as well as face-to-face connections at their long-angle in-person events. Now, members also have access to unique private market opportunities. And as I mentioned, I'm a member of long angle. I like it because it's vetted.

Everyone on there has a certain amount of net worth and therefore they are asking relevant questions of the community. You're not gonna get people on there giving the same old advice like, hey, here's how you save money on salary. That's not the purpose of this community. Some of the topics that I've loved are multi-generational family trips or

questions like, we want to travel for six months with our children. What do you all do for school? How do you make travel more seamless for children? I've seen topics I loved about concierge doctors. Topics that no one is really talking about publicly. And on their online community, there are groups for all different topics like education for kids, events, even philanthropy and how to become more thoughtful about giving. There are literally thousands of conversations going on right

now at long angle, and I love it because it's a super high quality group and people are even starting to meet in person. Now, in order to join, members must show proof of at least $2.2 million in investable assets, liquid or ill-liquid, and a community organizer will hold a brief Zoom call with every potential member to make sure it's a fit. Go to longangle.com to learn more. That's longanglean-e.com. This episode is sponsored by Babel. Travel is one of the top three money dials.

And when it comes to traveling, a lot of people wish that they could connect with locals. Eat like the locals. Eat like the locals. Speak like the locals. I remember going to Mexico many years ago, I had taken Spanish in high school. I was okay. I'd forgotten a lot of it, but we found ourselves in an area where there was no native English speakers. And I had to make my way and speak in my broken Spanish and figure out which direction to go and where do we get a bathroom and food. And it actually worked. It wasn't great. It wasn't even good, but I could communicate. And that felt amazing to be able to connect with someone in a language showing you've taken the time to learn the basics. There's something very bonding about that. Now, thanks to Babel,

the language learning app that sold more than 10 million subscriptions, there's an addictively fun and easy way to learn a new language. Whether you'll be traveling abroad, connecting in a deeper way with your family, or you just have some free time, Babel teaches bite-sized language lessons

that you'll actually use in the real world. Babbles 15-minute lessons make it the perfect way to learn a new language on the go, and you can choose from 14 different languages including Spanish, French, Italian, and German. Plus Babble helps you work on improving your pronunciation and accent. I love hearing from our listeners when they use our sponsors, so if you've recently signed up for Babel after listening to this podcast, send me a DM. Tell me how it's going for you. There's so many ways that you can use Babel.

They've got podcasts organized by different skill levels, so you can listen in, try to figure out clues, and all the while you're getting better at speaking Italian or Spanish or German or French. In addition to the lessons and podcasts, their games, videos, stories and classes. Plus, it comes with a 20-day money back guarantee. Right now when you purchase a three-month subscription to Babel, you'll get an additional three-months-free. That's six months for the price of three. Here's how you can take advantage of this offer.

First, sign up by going to IWT.com slash Babel. Remember that mobile app will not allow you to redeem this code. Next, at IWT.com slash Babel, sign up for an account. When you get to the purchase page, enter the code,ameet R-A-M-I-T to redeem your offer. So remember, go to iwt.com slash Babel, sign up for an account and use promo code Rameet. That's iwt.com slash B-A-B-B-E-L code Rameet R-A-M-I-T. I think the part where we vastly differ is on spending it. I mean, we're accurate on how to save it and why save it, but there's a big divide on

spending. How to spend what to spin it on, why spin it on these things? Yeah, there is. I'm hearing so much focused Charles on saving and accumulating and compounding, and you've done a fantastic job of that. I do hear a lot of excitement when you talk about the light bulbs and the blueberries and getting a good value. Love that excitement. I'm not hearing any real joy aside from a couple of things like the gym on how to spend the money. from a couple of things like the gym on how to spend the money. It's financial freedom, right?

At some point, I want to be able to go into my next chapter and work on more passion projects and retire from my full-time job. I'm not sure when that's going to be, but that's part of the mission that I've been on is to get to financial freedom so I can kind of go to my next chapter and that's the pace that gets me really excited. So you did it. Did you know you succeeded? I think I'm close. Yeah, how close? Well, there's a lot of factors to consider, but I think I'm very close. I think that the one of the biggest question marks in my mind is when I talk to Michelle about what is our Rich Life look like. And she starts talking about that. And I start seeing dollar signs.

I start seeing hearing, I want to fly first class. I want to buy a huge house. I want to stay in in the Western United States in a high cost geography. And I'm saying, okay, my initial plans were X, her plans are 1.5 X, and so that's the thing that is it's currently, so let's be get an agreement and alignment on what that rich life looks like. It's going to be hard for me to pencil it out. Why don't we just do it right now? Well, let's just do it right now. Here's the thing before we do it. That's exactly why I haven't done it because it's not, it doesn't stop there. It's not, here are my five things that I'd like to do.

Great, we'll do it because there's two problems with that. One is it's set in stone. So if I give you five things right now that I'd like to do, that's my rich life, that's it. There shouldn't be, there can't be a single dollar spent anywhere else. And number two, the minute I spit out the first one, he has a problem with it because it's like,

oh my god, that's spending money on something that I would not otherwise spend money on. And then also the few things that he just mentioned first class and the big house, those are false. Those are things that he hears. The reality is, I'm tired of sitting smashed in the middle every time he gone vacation. I just want it to better comfort.

Not I got to fight first class just because it's first class. The truth is I want to live on the West Coast because A, that's where we're from and B, that's where my children are and they'll probably stay here after college. So there's some truth behind his statements that come across like, well, gee, this woman is crazy. She wants to actually live in a big house. Yeah, I do. I do. I think we both worked both work hard and yeah I do I'm not ashamed of that

but you want to travel first class yep I do we've worked we've been married 21 years and it's about time after flights after four hours we're in business or first class so it's again it's that negative spin to it and I'm like yeah yeah I want to do that what's wrong with that what I'm hearing what I heard from Michelle was that my inf's wrong with that? What I'm hearing, what I heard from Michelle was that my inflexibility, and that's fair. I'm a very plantable guy. I like to stick to a plan. And so, but I'm trying to convince Michelle

that, hey, I've learned to be more flexible. And it's not gonna be set in stone. But I think that, but let's be thoughtful about putting a plan together. Don't just kind of spit out numbers or ideas. Let's be thoughtful and make sure that something you put forward or something that you put some thought into. Okay, before we go on. Are you seeing Michelle's reaction right now? No, I can't see it. What is she doing? She's shaking her head. Why do you think she's shaking her head? Just rewind back to what you just said.

What did you say in that sentence again? Try to say it out loud. Okay, I said that I am trying to be more flexible not set in stone, and but I wanted to put some thought into what she's trying to do. Maybe she took it as she's not being thoughtful, and that's not what I meant, but I just feel that sometimes she spits out numbers. Okay, hold on, hold on, pause you right there. So you had two parts of that sentence. I want to

convince her that I am more flexible. That was part one. And then part two was, but started with a but I think, you know, we should run our numbers and we should be thoughtful and planful. Okay, those two parts, which part, part one or part two, do you think that she started shaking her head at? Part two. Yeah. Because she, I think she may be offended at my thinking that she's not being thoughtful or planful, etc. I think she may think that she is thoughtful, what she says. And what is the implication of you needing to remind your wife of 21 years

that you both need to be thoughtful? What's the implication there? I think the implication is that she's not, she has not been thoughtful. And she's, you know, hasn't put any thought into what he's trying to do. If you were to say, hey, babe, you make the plan for the vacation. Here's the checkbook.

What is the implication that what would she do with that checkbook? That she's going to spend a bunch of money, thoughtlessly. Like a huge amount, like a amount of money that's gonna set you back into poor house. Do you think she would do that? I don't think she would do that intentionally, but I think that she could or has spent money in ways that I thought that she would not, we should not have spent in the most way.

Do you think there is a vacation that the two of you could go on? Do you think there's an amount she could spend that would materially affect your finances negatively? No. Say it again. Say it in a full sentence so you hear that yourself. I don't think it's possible for Michelle to spend money on one vacation That will materially impact our finance. However agree Just stop right there. Just stop right there. I'm gonna save you from yourself. Okay trust me I'm saving you I'm saving all of us right now

Okay, okay, I had to stop him from some long monologue that he was about to go on and two things just happened right there. One you could see and one you could not. First, Charles acknowledged that there is literally no amount Michelle could spend on a vacation that would materially affect their finances. To put it another way, she could plan a $500,000 trip and they would make that much money back in a few months in interest alone. But you'll notice how I had to almost drag this out of them.

Even when he admitted it, he felt he had to caveat it to cover his bases, to explain. This is true of a lot of logical people. They feel they need to cover every contingency. Second, I wish you could have seen Michelle's face. She looked so sad. She looked frustrated. The problem with needing to dot every eye and cross every T. And I'm talking to all you logical dorks out there

who feel the need to explain and show the math and ROI of every life decision. The problem is that nobody likes being told all the things you might do wrong. Especially when you've been someone's partner for 21 years. Michelle is looking for a little partnership here, a little trust to focus on what can go right instead of only focusing on what can go wrong. You know, I belong to a small group of CEOs. One time we were on a retreat and I was telling them about some upcoming review I was going to have with one of my coworkers and they asked me, how good is this guy? I said, he's great.

90% of his work is excellent. And they said to me, okay, then in your call, spend 90% of the time on the positive. This totally blew my mind. Because as a guy who used to be a logical dork, I still have remnants of it in my mind. Here's what I was planning to do. I was gonna spend five minutes praising him and complimenting him on the good work, and then 55 minutes going through constructive feedback.

What a fucking mistake that would have been. Michelle has been subjected to literally decades of constructive criticism, of being warned about all the things that can go wrong, of listening to Charles's fears about money. But she's been a good partner. She hasn't asked for anything over the top. So you can understand the sadness, the anger, and the resignation that I saw in her face. Okay. So we start there, we can agree on that. Let's put the plan part of it aside. Let's just put that financial part of it aside. Is Michelle a good mom? She's a great mom.

She a good wife. Excellent wife. Good partner. very good partner. How come in your statements the two-parter you give her the warning of what she might do wrong? Where's that coming from? I think it's coming from because we approach things differently right? Talk to me about yourself. So I approach things differently. Talk to me about yourself. I approach things maybe too much so in a very analytical, planful, intentional way. I do my homework, I'm very punctual, I build spreadsheets to make sure I know what's going on, and that's what I do. Maybe overkill, but that's what I do.

I think Michelle is very spontaneous and she's very much has a gut that tells her to do this and do that, and she's oftentimes right. And so, but it could be a scary ride because like Michelle's approach is a scary ride for me because I'm not sure where she's going and we're gonna end up, but if you look back on it, she always ends up in the resume in the right spot.

Who's more adventurous out of the two of you? Michelle. Yeah. If you were left to your own devices, Charles, would you sort of do the same thing day in and day out? I like routine. You know, you remind me a lot of myself because I also love the plants. I love the spreadsheets. I like to map it all out. And actually that has helped me to become successful. So in a way I look at it, I say, well, that's a strength. I can't fly by the sea to my pants.

Like these other people, that would be crazy. And that becomes reflexive. My skills made me successful. Therefore, I need to lean on my skills. All that's true. I'm hearing a lot of that from you. There's just one problem. My skills can also be very destructive

to the people around me, because I'm naturally analytical, utilitarian. When I was in my early 20s, I didn't even put a frame on anything on the wall. I was like, why would I? It's a waste of money. I'll just hang up a poster. Then I met my wife, who's spontaneous, more adventurous, and it was, I just want to talk about the spreadsheet all day. I said,

let's get into the spreadsheet. Let's talk compound interest. This is great. And okay, you know, that took some time and all that. But there's a cost to sharing your analytical views all the time. There's a cost to looking at the world only through an analytical lens. I think the cost is you miss out on some really good experiences, right? So for example, we always tend to plan out our vacations. This one time we didn't plan out this vacation to Los Angeles and it was Michelle, Michelle's doing and she wanted to not plan it. And we hit like one of the best days, you know, we kind of went to went to a museum here, something on the street corner here. If you're so planful about everything, you're going to miss out on those spontaneous,

magical moments. Charles and I spend some time talking about money lenses. Let me explain that concept to you. Imagine you're wearing a pair of glasses. Everything you see in the world comes through those lenses. So if I asked you, what's your money lens? What would you say? The most common money lens is cost.

This is how most people view the world. They focus on cost first. How much is going to cost? Charles uses a money lens that's more commonly used by highly educated people. ROI. He wants value. He loves analytics. Lot of tech guys use these money lenses. But there are also other money lenses. There's experience which could be an amazing restaurant or a sunset trip to the beach. There's relationships like my friend who hosts people at his house all the time There's security like knowing you can call someone to fix your car

My wish for you Is to treat money lenses like different instruments in an orchestra You would never only have one instrument you would never only have a Trombone I don't know. I'm a little out of my leagues since I don't know anything about orchestras. Basically, you would never play with just one instrument. Yet so many of us do this for our entire lives. And there's a real cost to seeing everything through one lens. For Charles, he's always crunching numbers, always looking for more value. And it really rubs his wife the wrong way. Sometimes you can just

do something for another money lens. Sometimes there's another money lens you can use. Pure desire. I'm going to do this because I want to. Once you have a large enough net worth, you should be a master of many of these money lenses. Listen, as you hear Michelle's response now. The house is my biggest thing. The house, maintaining it, beautifying it, making it comfortable, making it comfortable for my family and friends, but the problem is it's not. And then another thing that I kind of picked up as Charles was talking is it's what he finds valuable is what he finds pleasure in. So when we talk about the Tesla, that's that benefited him solely. When we talk about

the garage remodel, that benefits him solely. So the disconnect the when it benefits him, it fit him in any kind of w friction happens. So he about furniture in the li less, that's our friction to me. He could care less care less, but it's ev and the real clincher he

he earns the money and physically has more access to the money, he directs it. He manages it. So, buying is just a wish. His, his desires are actually played out because he physically earns it and doesn't view this as

our money. Is that true, Charles? Do you view it as your money or both of your money Do you view it as your money or both of your money? I view it as our money. I think early in my marriage, I was much more selfish with the money, but I've tried to make amends

and try to be more open with her. For example, I created this spreadsheet that shows her, here's where all the money is, here's all the passwords, she has access to it. I try to get her to sit down and talk about different things that I do because before, I would make an investment without talking to her about it. Now, I'm trying to really just say, hey, Michelle, I'm thinking about doing this. What do you think it says? I've tried to talk to her more about it, but it still is very much

one-sided and I want to correct that. Okay. Okay. I appreciate that. I'm here new and I can see that you are. So clearly, you've probably talked about this before. I'm here new and I can see that you are. So clearly you've probably talked about this before. I'm sure it's been a hot topic of discussion. Charles, it sounds like Michelle wants to get some furniture. What has your approach been with this furniture that she wants to get? So my first approach was, okay, when I hear her ideas, I start to hear, I see that chaching, chaching, chaching, chaching, that's okay, when I hear her ideas, I start to hear it say, she's chaining, chaining, chaining, chaining, that's okay. For the next 12 months, this is kind of outline what do you want to do to the house for the next 12 months?

And let's plan for that. So there's no big surprise. Like, the thing that I don't like as much is, in May, let's do this, in June, let's do this, in August, let's do this, and it starts adding up. And so when I kind of come to her, and say, listen, we can do this stuff for the house,

let's lay out a plan for 12 months. And that's when Michelle cringes and doesn't want to do it. And that's what causes the strife. She would love if I said, honey, you have a blank checkbook, do what you want. Is that true, Michelle? I would love him to take take enough money that he needs. He said he needs 150,000. Take it. Give me the rest.

I mean, literally, like you only need 150. You're netting 80,000 a month. And you're questioning my audible $12 subscription every day. There's a problem here. We file our taxes jointly. And I had to sign for taxes recently. Couldn't believe my eyes. I didn't even know how much we made. I had to sign $175,000 per month. My yard is in shambles. There's no reason for this. When we fly, we fly as basic economy

as we can. When we say in hotels, like he said, it's the cheapest. Now, we're not in motel six and we're not, you know, it's undyour straights, but it's probably the quality if we made $100,000 a year. And there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is we make more. The reason why I'm not giving a list is because it comes down to the words that he said before,

convincing, being thoughtful, being planful. I'm all those things. I'm analytical giving a list is because it comes down to the words that he said before, convincing, being thoughtful, being planful. I'm all those things. I'm analytical as well. I plan, I research, I weigh the, and measure, I don't just really nilly just say, hey, I wonder why I couch today. I'm doing research, et cetera. But those words are unacceptable and they shut me down. And when I hear those, I'm like, I'm not giving you a list because the minute I say,

let's do this, that's not being thoughtful, that's not being plantful. Well, I'm just saying, it give me a chance to think it out. But so these are issues that everything that he's saying is fantastic. They make sense, they're logical, but in reality it doesn't play out like that. Do you think that is going to happen?

I don't know because the Lee, I do believe that he wants to change. I do believe that he realizes the damage that has been done. I'm not optimistic that he can actually do it. I haven't seen change in this area of money. It's often the things that make us successful in the first place, that turn around and cost us everything. Charles has been very financially successful, and yet he's taken it too far.

He's become cheap. He's become disconnected from what really matters. His wife is frustrated, maybe beyond saving. Now, the good news is that they both came to me, open mindedly, willing to listen and potentially change. And as I started having this conversation with him, I saw how much there is to unpack with Charles and Michelle. The first and the big elephant in the room is that cheapness is one of the most difficult afflictions to change. You know why? Because deep

down cheap people don't really think it's a problem. They'll often shroud their behavior in all kinds of positive phrases. Well, you know, I'm a conscious spender. There's certain things I care about, certain things I don't. I would never spend on that. But when you zoom out and you ask them, what is your philosophy on money costing you? Well, suddenly they have to start to acknowledge that friends aren't inviting them out as much,

that they're accumulating a huge amount in their checking account, and they have no idea what to do with it. In this case, Charles has to acknowledge that his wife is extremely unhappy. It becomes clear that this is a much, much more complex psychological issue than the amount of money in a savings account.

I have a lot more to talk about with Charles and Michelle. This conversation continues, and it winds and turns on next week's episode. I'm Remiith Saiti, and I'll see you then. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Ramit Saiti. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. To find our entire back catalog of podcast episodes, go to iwt.com slash podcast. I'm given away a signed copy of my book. Send me a screenshot. Show me that you're following my podcast on Apple or Spotify and

I'll pick one listener to send a free signed copy of my book right out to you. Here's what you'll find next week on the I Will Teach To Be Rich Podcast. I do believe that he wants to change. I do believe that he realizes the damage that has been done. I'm not optimistic that he can actually do it. I haven't seen change in this area of money. My entire... I get it. I get it. You're cautious about hope. I get that. Exactly.