I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 27. “I don’t care about what he wants, I just want to win the argument”

Episode Date: January 25, 2022

It all started with a splurge at Target. Tami spent $250 and tried to hide it from her husband, Mike. He likes to make digs and police her spending habits. She likes to make jokes about his bad purchases. They’re sparring over gas station snacks and unused kayaks, and each “win” gives them the satisfaction of saying, “I told you so.” These seemingly minor annoyances are covering much deeper resentment issues. As you’re listening, think about the habits you and your partner have. Ask yourself: are they serving you?  Connect with Ramit Website Instagram Twitter Facebook YouTube Linkedin If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

I have a harder, more stressful job. I make more money, like, and we don't have even split up certain things. Honestly, I'm terrible when we get into fights like that because I tend to just almost like black out, like I can't even tell you details of any of the argument. I honestly, like, I felt a little bit taken advantage of it. I just think that it's really important to us to not recreate some of what we experienced as children. We knew like going into being parents that we were going to have to just be better. And you know, it's easier said than dog. I like to introduce you to Tammy and Mike. They're Midwestern couple. They met 17 years ago, and they have a son named Rowan, who's two years old.

And they make $135,000, but believe it or not, the reason they came to talk to me was a trip to Target. Tammy had taken a trip to target, she bought some stuff, and when she came home, Mike's first question was how much did you spend, and this led to a blowout fight. Well as you listen to the conversation today, I want you to pay close attention to the way they talk to each other, the way they joke with each

other. It's sarcastic, but it goes a lot further than that. And as I try to unpeel what's really going on here, you're going to hear a lot of surprises particularly towards the end of the episode. My name is Ramit Saiti, and this is the I Will Teach You To Be Rich Podcast. Here we go. Tammy, can you tell me what happened recently when you went to Target? There's probably just a pick up.

A couple of things were in the pandemic and we're following the CDC guidelines really, really strictly. So going to the store is a luxury now in a way that it never was before. I found like the household things that we needed like cleaning supplies and I got snacks and all in all it ended up being like, I don't know, probably around like $250. And so when I got home, he asked how much I spent. And so when I told him how much I spent, he got really upset because it is a decent chunk of money for me to just, you know, randomly spend. Like anytime for me to just, you know, randomly spend. Like anytime we spend more than I would say like $50, we usually check in with each other like,

hey, it's a cool if I spend this much money. So for me to just go and drop like $250 at Target was kind of a big deal. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, I just got to stop and cut in here. Listen, I grew up in suburbia. I know everything there is to know about target. Walk in there, I know where the hot tamales are,

I know where the detergent is, I know that target now carries a copy of my book, I will teach you to be rich. I even know that when I bought a bike, I senior year of high school to go to college, a cashier looked up at me and he actually made fun of me, he goes, oh, would you like some pom-poms with that too? That huffy bike may have been a girl's bike. I'll never know. But what I do not

understand is how obsessed so many of you are with Target every single time I mention Target, I get 200 tweets like LOL. Is it possible to even walk out a target without spending a hundred bucks? My wife gets lost in there better say bye for an hour. Like, is this the new Disneyland? People going shopping at Target? And then I think to myself, wait a second, my wife loves Target. And every time we go in there she pulls out the red cart and then disappears. I'm like, what the hell is going on right now? How did target get so popular? Whatever they did, I think it

was that Michael Graves teapot that they came out with in 2000. Good job because all people talk about is how much they love target. Okay, back to this couple. Did you notice that she casually mentioned that when she got home, he asked how much she spent? Does anyone else find that curious? I do. See, sometimes one of the benefits of speaking to couples is that I get to gently point out that what they think is normal actually isn't that common.

For example, if you earn $135,000, should your first question really be, how much did you spend? Listen carefully to that clue. You're going to hear a lot more of it. We kind of just got in a huge fight and honestly, I'm terrible when we get into fights like that because I tend to just almost like black out. Like I can't even tell you details of any of the argument. I just remember that I was getting more and more upset and Mike had basically had said something along the lines of the fact that like he makes more money than me. So it's not fair for me to go and spend more money when that amount of money, at least,

that he sacrificed to make, to stay at his job and to make the amount of money that he does. If anybody is going to be spending that money, basically, it should be him. So I got super upset, and then I left. I just, like, I just said, I'm leaving. And I've said other things. And then I just got in the car and I drove off. And I went and returned a bunch of the stuff to target. I just remember just feeling like small and like less than, I guess, which kind of spills into other areas of our marriage and our partnership and division

of responsibilities. And so I felt even worse after that. Mike, what was your experience with that target trip? But you got back from target. I think my expectation was like, hey, you took as much time as you wanted to. You kind of got away. You probably bought a few things, but like nothing crazy.

You may be picked some stuff up we needed and something small for yourself. And so I initially honestly didn't know how much she spent. I kind of asked and we didn't have much of a conversation about it. So it wasn't until like a little bit later when I got a sense that she had actually bought more stuff. At that point I had felt frustrated just because I kind of felt like, okay, I already was like, hey, go take your time, no rush, I'll take over

parenting duties and, you know, do whatever spends some money. I think there was a tax message somewhere in there too, where I was like, hey, like, don't worry about it. If you need to spend 50 bucks, spend 50 bucks, whatever, you know, like in my mind probably trying to set like, hey, I'll be cool if you spend this much without us really discussing it. And so I honestly, like I felt a little bit taken advantage of and I initially didn't immediately voice my kind of this pleasure or whatever.

I kind of just like sat on it, but I think it was really obvious that I was upset. And so I think she picked up on that and I was frustrated about her spending the money. But I think what I'll do sometimes when we do have money disagreements, whether it's planned or not, is that I'll kind of justify when I want to spend money because I do feel like, hey, I make more money. We made kind of a group decision that like, hey, you're going to take a different position on so that you'll have a better that like, hey, you're going to take a different position on so that you'll have a better work life balance, and that's going to mean we have to make some cuts. And so I think, you know, that to her maybe meant we both make cuts together, to me that meant

like you make cuts, but I'll get a little more flexibility, right? Because I make like $30,000 more or whatever, which is not a fair assumption, but I tried to say that to her in that moment. And, you know, barely, she only heard me saying, like, I make more money than you. It's okay for me to go spend money not you. And so I tried to backpatt a lot of it. Like, no, no, no, I'm not saying I feel that way. I'm saying, like, that was like the gut reaction that I got. It was shitty that I said that.

It's not right, but it is how I felt. I just want to be honest with you. And I think at that point, she was like shut down and out the door. It was just this thing of like, I have a harder, more stressful job. I make more money, like, and we don't have an even split of certain things.

And I feel like you sometimes aren't conscious of that with our finances. I guess I, like, I'm an a fairly anxious person. Like, I want kind of control of a lot of things. I think that, ultimately, if I tick this box, it's like, okay, well, that's handled. We don't have to worry about Tammy going and spending money that I had some sort of majestic plan for in the future. Even if I didn't have a plan for it, it's just the fact that she walks out the door and

I don't know where she and the money are going. It's stressful to me. Isn't she your wife? Yeah, I mean, right, if there's anybody I can trust, it should be my wife. Do you trust her? Yeah, I do. I mean, literally with like, more important things of money. No, I mean, I do like, hold on a second, you trust her. I believe you that you trust her. But just 10 seconds ago, you said there she goes out the door $250 Right, like that's a bit of an odd way to describe your wife. Wouldn't she say? It is it's not even it's not even $25,000 by the way

It's 250 what's she gonna do? Oh 250 bucks. He filled up the car three times. We're gonna do 250 bucks. Right. After he like calms down a little bit from his like anxiety and like he can take a step back. He realizes that like yeah, and the scheme of things. This isn't a big deal. Right. But you know, and that moment, it's those moments that add up kind of a thing that, you know, because then I get more like nervous and anxious about like spending money or feeling like there's a part of me that feels like I have to hide it,

but also like I have to tell him about it. Like if it's more than just like gas station snacks or running to the party store or something, it ends up becoming a, I think a bigger thing in the long run because those small types of disagreements add up to having lingering consequences. You know what I find interesting? I find it interesting that Tammy, you went to the store with a plan to buy a couple of things and ended up buying $250 worth of stuff far more than you had planned. I find it interesting that you justified it to yourself by saying, well,

these were gifts for our niece and nephew and this and that. And you sort of papered over the fact that you knew you spent more than either of you expected. In fact, you hid that when you came home. You were not forthcoming. Okay. I find that interesting. I find it equally interesting, Mike, that the first question you asked her was, what was that question when she came home? British, do I ask her how much she spent? Yeah, is that a common question, Mike, that you asked her? I mean, probably, yeah, I would say so.

It depends on the circumstance, but I would say definitely, if she's going to certain places, where there's a certain expectation on my end that I know She's gonna want to buy stuff. Yeah, I mean, I think also before she goes somewhere. I'm like, hey I mean I Went out just a couple of weeks ago with my best friend to run to TJ Maxx or something and what did you say that you made a joke up? It was a joking

But he still made a comment to port me. What did you say to you made a joke up? It was a joking, but he still made a comment to port me. What did you say? You said something like, I like something about making sure she doesn't spend too much or something. Okay, yeah, I did. Hold it right there. Yeah.

Mike, how do you think that that joke is perceived? I think it's like both disempowering and like you don't trust me and like I'm gonna just go do something simple and you think I'm gonna make dumb decisions. Yeah, and then we came back and as a joke, I carried, this is probably just as bad. But I brought in mine and Courtney's bags together

and I only spent a little bit of money and he was just like, are you kidding me when he saw like the amount of bags that I had and. So Tammy, you're playing into it as well. Well yeah, because I was like, all right, well if you're gonna make this joke, I'll make this joke. And then he was like, how much did you really spend? And I was still like, well I only spent $65 with it. I was like, oh god, I still spent $65. Can I ask you a question? Yeah.

The two of you making these jokes to each other over a trip out with your friend to TJ Maxx, what do both of you get out of it? I think probably just like, I don't know, like satisfaction, kind of a family. You're getting satisfaction out of you being what? Better. Better than who?

Like. Yeah. Mike, what are you getting out of these jokes? When you're getting out of the joke that you pull a Courtney aside and say, keep your eye on Tammy, make sure she doesn't spend all this money. My most honest answer that I think is that I'm really trying to, without actually saying it to her, be like,

don't go spend money. I think to me, it's mostly a control thing. Do you really need to check up on how much she's spending at TJ Maxx? This is not Louis Vuitton. What are you going to get at TJ Maxx? A suitcase for $40? I know how much those suitcases cost. I grew up buying suitcases at TJ Maxx. I know how much those suitcases cost. I grew up buying suitcases in T.J. Max.

I know every island T.J. Max. What is it? It really is $65 gonna change your life. No, and I think part of it is that I don't even myself know the distinction between when I honestly am not concerned and like in my mind am really joking versus when I honestly am not concerned and like in my mind am really joking versus when I really am concerned. Like I think that that line has probably blurred for me.

What Mike just said is really important. Did you catch it? He said, at this point, I don't even know the distinction between when I'm joking and when I'm actually concerned. What a great example of how small habits or small jokes can exact an enormous cost on you. Now some of you've heard me talk about how I used to jokingly call myself a skinny Indian guy. For years, I was 127 pounds, and in part to cope with it,

I would joke about being skinny. And the truth is, I was rewarded for that joke. I would get a little ha ha. But in reality, it actually cost me a lot. Because when I finally decided to make a change, to learn how to lift weights and put on some muscle, I had created this identity for myself of being just a skinny Indian guy. And looking back, I wish I had never said, in some way, we all do this. We'll say things like, oh, I'm just not good at math.

Ah, I just can't manage my money, you know, whatever. And if you want to make a change, whether it's to change your body, become better with money, become more spontaneous, even become a better parent, you can. But it gets a lot harder if you've created an identity that's directly in opposition to change. Mike and Tammy have been lobbying these comments to each other for so long. They don't even realize it's not normal. They don't realize the effect it's having on their partner. They don't even realize if they believe it or not. When I speak to these couples, one of the gifts that they give me is they allow me to

see their relationship. They open themselves up and they tell me they actually want me to give them feedback on what I'm observing. So I want you to do the same thing with your relationship. As you're listening to this, think about what habits you and your partner have. Everything from what you say to each other, to what you eat, what you do for fun, even the inside jokes you have. Think about what the two of you say after you go to a party and see other people. What are the two of you say in the car on the ride home? All of those little behaviors,

all of those habits you have, think about them, and then ask yourself this, are they serving you? Because for Mike and Tammy, I can tell you right now, their habits are not serving them at all. Why does a joke in your relationship have to be at one of your expenses? I mean, yeah, I don't know. It's like our way of skating around the actual issue

and just letting it fester. Did you two have parents who did this? Well, not me as much as Tammy, but. I definitely think that my parents had a somewhat similar I definitely think that my parents had a somewhat similar type of relationship as Mike and I do in terms of finances. I can remember my dad taking my mom's credit cards and hiding them. So she couldn't use them. She definitely was the one who would do

what I'm doing now, you know, like spending little bits of money here and there, like, you know, and then him giving her kind of a hard time about it. And probably, yeah, having the same type of like banter and, you know, jokes, like that kind of a thing. And how did that work out? I mean, they're still together. Are they happy?

In their own way, it's complicated and I don't know. It's like a lot. I don't know. You want that relationship for you? No. That was quick. Yeah, no. How can you say that so quickly? I don't, I mean, I don't want my relationship to look like

their relationship with each other now. Yeah. Most of us live lives that are utterly predictable. We just refuse to see it. Mike and Tammy are on a path that is so utterly predictable that if you're listening, you can spot what's going to happen from a mile away. But they don't see it. You rarely do when you are in your own situation.

You think that, oh, it's different. We're unique. We have all these different possibilities when someone from a little bit of distance can say, hmm, I can kind of tell where this is going. Most of us live lives that are utterly predictable. We just refuse to see it. Mike and Tammy are on a very predictable path, and the outcome is not good. The way they fight is toxic.

The way they argue about money, snow good. The place they're going is not a good destination, but they don't realize that predictable path they're on. And this affects us as an entire country as well. Think about it, if you skip class to work at Carl's Junior, and then you go, I'm not going to college, the truth is you're probably not to be a multi-millionaire. The fact that this seems controversial to say speaks to how strongly our country's propaganda is, this idea that you can accomplish anything if you set your mind to it.

Yeah, that's possible. Maybe you can. But the odds are stacked against you. I had a friend once say, but Zuckerberg dropped out of college. He dropped out of Harvard. The reason I'm bringing this up is that Americans drastically overestimate our social mobility. We have this invisible script that we can work hard and become rich. But if you actually zoom out and you compare our social mobility to that of other countries,

you'll be surprised. Americans are not as mobile as you thought. In fact, if you grew up poor, odds are you'll remain poor. And this, by the way, is one of the reasons that I'm such a fan of paying my taxes and increasing social services. I bring this up because Mike and Tammy are living utterly predictable lives right now, but they just don't see it. They fight about tiny amounts of money.

They insult each other and they're on track to replicate or at least resemble her parents' relationship, which she herself just said she doesn't want to be like. We know where this path is leading, but they refuse to see it. It's just like flossing. You know you should floss. You've heard people warn you about what happens if you don't. It's easy to ignore it because you don't really feel the cost. But day by day, you're living a life where the outcome will predictably be bad. So, now what I want to do is I want to try to show them this. Not tell them, not tell them not lecture them

But I want to show them the path they're on and let them figure out what's going to happen I'm going to do that by starting off With asking them what money really represents to the two of them $50 Is that going to change either of your lives? No, no Is that going to change either of your lives? No. No. Okay. So you're all sitting here fighting about $50 a year and $200 there.

And the two of you make $135,000 household income per year. Why do you think that you're so happy to be fighting over $50 questions? When I was younger, my dad had like a bunch of medical issues and we ended up with like $100,000 medical bills and vehicles being repossessed both for our families, eventually like lost their like our childhood homes and stuff like that. So I think I always have just lived under the assumption

that if we're not penny-pinching, even though it's inconsistent, because again, sometimes it's like if I'm in a good mood, I'm just, ah, whatever. It's like that $50 may add to a ton sometimes if I'm freaked out and it doesn't at all other times. Have you noticed that, Mike, your playing life not to lose? Yeah, yeah. What do you think the costs are of playing life not to lose? I think there's a lot of small losses in trying to avoid the big loss that might never come anyway, especially like when we were a little bit younger before we like had money where it was like

a thousand dollars was the world to us or at least to me where it's like we skipped a destination wedding or skipped this or that or whatever. By playing life on defense, you are missing so many opportunities to go on offense. And by playing life on defense, every day you wake up, you put on your glasses and the first thing you scan the room and look around for is what can go wrong today. For sure.

What's going to break? What's going to go wrong in our finances? Yeah. It's not a very pleasant way to live, is it? No. What other examples can you think of playing defense? So it was like this grand gesture where for her birthday or our anniversary, one or the other,

I was like, I bought these tickets and like, now this means we have to go to London. And we're gonna like, we're gonna make it happen. And like I also, especially then, had like a deathly fear of flying, which is only slightly better now. And so it was like, I'm gonna commit to this. I'll get my shit together in time to go make this

amazing trip. And then in the meantime, because the tickets were on sale a year and a half before the show or something. And so by the time we got closer, I slowly talked my way backwards out of it. And it was like, actually, we need the money because we don't want to rent this apartment. We should work towards buying this condo. And we can't really buy the condo and go on this trip and so like walk slowly backwards out of it until we finally were going, which I think in my mind like we made it up because we saw the same show in New York a few years after that or something, but I think that's like a really specific example of something where like I really tried not to like disappoint Tammy and also to really surprise her and do something that was unlike myself. But ultimately I reverted back to my old thinking and backed out of it and kind of just like rationalize why it was better that way. And I'm willing to bet Tammy correct me if I'm wrong.

You loved the gesture. He came out, oh my God, he was thoughtful. He created a plan a year and a half in advance. Did you love that gesture? Yeah, I was super excited. I was like texting all of my friends. I was texting my mom like, holy shit, I'm not going to get to go back to London. Like this is going to be amazing. And so Mike, you got all the points for being the spontaneous hero. You got all the points for being the spontaneous hero. And then in the end,

did you have to overcome any of your fears or change any of your behaviors? No, no, I mean, I tried and failed, but I didn't ultimately have to. I mean, I did in that moment, I felt like, but I think over enough time, I went back to zero you know, zero. So where do you two end up if you keep going the way you're going? What's the cost of this dynamic that you two have established?

I think for me where I know that I am worried that, you know, we're going to get 10, 15 years down the road. And our son is going to be not needing us as much. And I'm going to look back and be like, holy shit. Like, I'm not happy. This is not what I want out of life. I don't know who I am anymore. We have a lot of motivation to be together, regardless of how we feel, minute to minute or day to day,

because we do have a shared project that we're very committed to, and raising a child. Like while I may be extend even further my fear mongering around finances to try to keep him safe financially, I then also do the same stuff to him. And he's a child now, but I don't want to treat him like a two-year-old when he's 16 or 16-year-old when he's 30. And then I also don't want him to see me doing that to his mom. Okay, let's imagine he's eight years old, just a few years from now. And mom is going out with a friend for lunch.

And your eight year old son, sees mom putting her shoes on. And he says to her, mommy, don't spend any money when you're out with your friend. All right. How would you feel? I would be mortified, I'd be like, oh shit. Because what?

Because I wouldn't want him a to feel like that's how you act in a relationship. Like I wouldn't want him to feel like you instead of having like open honest communication with someone that you take little jabs with them to try to get them to bend to your will. And I also wouldn't want him to internalize it either to where like he's going out too and feels like,

oh, I might make a dumb money decision. I got dad's voice in my head telling me I have an idiot or even almost worse if he's like, well, I'm a boy. So I won't mess it up. Like it's just dumb mom. And I'll be like, that would be awful. Okay. Tammy, I noticed you're crying.

Can you tell me why? I just think that it's really important to us to not recreate some of what we experienced as children and that we have like, you know, things that we saw as kids, like our parents doing with each other or talking to us. We've carried that through life and it's some of the things that we struggle with now. And just thinking about doing that to Rowan and then, you know, whoever, you know, Rowan, like his partner when he grows up is going to be on the receiving end of what he grew up with that he's carried with him. And so I think the pressure of that, you know, it's just something that we knew,

like going into being parents that we were going to have to be better than, you know, I don't know, just to be better. And And I think before you become parents, you think, oh, I'm not going to do these things, or we're never going to do that. You know, it's easier said than done. So just like imagining that in my head. Seems like of everything we talked about today, that was the thing that really reached you.

Why is that? I think I just always, like, I'm just trying to be the best parent that I can be kind of the thing to him. And I just don't want to fail him. This is such an important moment. I'm very thankful to Tammy for being so open with me here. This has happened on several episodes where a couple has a money issue and will spend hours talking about it and they'll agree, yes, this is a problem, yes, we should make some changes,

yes, we need to do something differently. But once we talk about what their son or their daughter is picking up on suddenly they're crying, even bawling. Why? Because money is emotional. It's one thing to talk about a spending problem or target or getting financially aligned. But when you think about your son picking up on these issues and carrying them into his life and his future relationships, suddenly it all clicks. This is serious, really serious.

It's not a joke. And I want you to listen to me carefully. I had a track coach tell me this back in high school and I didn't really understand it, but now I do. He said, someone is always watching. If you're at work and you go above and beyond on an assignment, someone is watching. If you're emptying the dishwasher at home and you have acid, someone is watching. If you're emptying the dishwasher at home and you have acid, someone is watching. If you fight with your partner about money, someone is

watching. You might not know who, and they might not even realize they're making a judgment about you, but someone is watching. The point of this isn't to impress people around you all the time. The point is, I want you to develop an intrinsic motivation to take the really important things in life seriously. Your rich life is not a joke. It's not something to delay or procrastinate on or to minimize. Someone is always watching. And eventually, that's someone who matters most. Is you. One of my favorite things to talk about is this concept of money dials. The areas where you love to spend money.

The most common one is food, the next most common one is travel, and the third most common one, a top money dial, is health and wellness. Now I get it. I spend a lot on certain areas of my life. For me, I love hotels that falls under luxury, I love convenience, that falls under having my food delivered, etc. And I also love the ability to spend on health and wellness, like a personal trainer or selecting where I stay by how close the gym is. Health and wellness is a top money dial for most of my audience. That's why I'm excited to partner with Ness who I want to tell you about

today. With the Ness card, you can earn 5 x points on health and wellness spending at grocery stores, gyms, salons, pharmacies, restaurants, and 2 x points on everything else. Then, just like you use travel card points for travel rewards, you can redeem the points from your Nest card for health and wellness experiences. This could be things like a Chipotle burrito, to recovery gear, to an all-inclusive retreat. Now in my own personal life, I love spending money on health and wellness. I have a personal trainer. I get a weekly beard trim.

I buy protein powder. And when I travel, I make sure to prioritize where I'm staying by how close it is to a good gym. Right now, Ness is offering a 50,000 point bonus to members who spend $6,000 in the first 90 days, plus a $200 statement credit for health and wellness spending. They have a special offer for our I will teach you to be rich listeners and extra 5,000 point bonus when you apply for the Nest card and get approved using the link that's N-E-S-S-W-E-L-L dot com slash R-A-M-I-T. Offer and benefit terms apply. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

On this podcast, you've heard me recommend therapy to a lot of couples. Some of the couples are already seeing therapists, which I love. But if you wanted to get therapy, if you wanted to have a space where you and your partner could talk about money and any other topic, would you know where to go right now? No. A lot of us would search. We'd find a bunch of options, but how do we know who's right?

How do we know what to do next? It can be overwhelming. So if you've been thinking about therapy, give Better Help a Try. It's online. You'll get matched with a licensed therapist after filling out a brief questionnaire. You can also switch therapists for no additional charge. One of the things that I love on this podcast is being able to help couples discover a new way of seeing

and talking about money. But this is just one conversation. A lot of us need a lot more conversations in order to lock in change. That's why I think therapy is really important for a lot of us. My wife and I saw a therapist to help us deal with our early money conversations. And therapy gave us a place and a time to talk about how we felt. Discover your potential with better help. Visit betterhelp.com slash remit today to get 10% off your first month.

That's betterhelp. H-E-L-P dot com slash remit R-A-M-I-T. ["ROMETE"] Can I just tell you, I love jokes. All right, I love making fun of myself, and I love making fun of other people. Well, half my Twitter feed is making fun of people who think real estate is the best investment on Earth. They're fucking delusional.

They had never run numbers in their life. Okay, I love it. So, when I say this, I want you to listen carefully to me. It's actually not that funny to verbally decapitate your partner. It's not that funny. And yeah, you can get a win, but the win is so short term and the cost is so enormous.

I think that's like beyond the jokingness stuff we do give each other a hard time about where it's like, she's like, oh, you're always trying to wear me down about some like big electronics thing or some, you know, electric bikes or a new kayak, this set, whatever I'm like, yeah, but I'm glad myself like experience and like 100 experiences and you're just buying yourself mini donuts at the gas station. You're both playing to win at the other person's expense. You hear that? Both of you.

Especially because he doesn't even use it that much. He's got this freaking kayak hanging up in the garage and he's used it three times. See, this is what we, this is exactly what we, our friends experience. This is how I know Tammy and I can see the huge smile on your face right now. Yeah. You are loving this. Mm-hmm.

Until the two of you can change this, what just happened, you're going to be stuck here. Because you two love it. You love attacking your partner. You look at that smile on your face. I know. I'm still on your face. Because I'm just like, holy shit. Like I've never really like

seen like thought of it like that. I guess like I'm just like, can I tell you something? If I heard a couple, my friends saying what you guys just said to each other, I would be shocked. My friends do not talk like that. Personally I find it so inappropriate. But it would be a huge deal if any couple we were out with said just what the two of you

said about the kayak. And that's the least of what you said today. And the worst part is he doesn't even use the kayak, making a joke at his expense and making yourself seem better. Yeah. So Mike, I would rather you simply said, look, I want the kayak, it's in our plan.

I'm gonna get it and you know what, babe, I'd love to take you out on that kayak. Next Saturday. Wow. What a totally different approach. Now as for you Tammy, I would rather have you say, yeah, you know, I picked up some snacks and Mike, I know your favorite snack is red vines and twigs. You know what? I bought you a couple of those things too.

I would rather have that. But the ultimate level is that you're both not asking each other about these $10, $20 decisions at all. You make $135,000 a year and you're interrogating each other about gas station snacks. Why do both of you engage in these interrogations on $20 questions? I don't know. You know. I mean, my immediate reaction, like you saying, you know, like if like, like, hey, I bought this

kayak, we have it in the budget, we can say for it, I'm gonna take you out on it. I'm gonna say like, no, I don't want to do that. That is terrifying to me. And then you, and then me being like, oh, hey, I went and got these snacks from the gas station and I got some of your snacks that you like like Mike hates that shit. And so he'd be like, why would you get me this stuff to make me feel sick? Okay, okay, I think you took away the wrong takeaways from my examples. That whole example was meant to be positive.

You went in there surgically like you were surging with a binoculars on. You went into that entire story and you surgically with your four steps pulled out the only two possible negative things you could have pulled out of that story. Can you try to do that again? And this time, go positive. Yeah. I mean, I, like appreciative. Like, that sounds awesome.

Or thank you for thinking of me, or, you know, the kayak would be like, oh, this will create like new great experiences and memories for us and just, you know, give it a try kind of a thing. Cool. Maybe Mike says, hey babe, I know you don't like the kayak. I'll tell you what, I put out a beautiful towel, a cushion, I packed a picnic lunch. I would love to have a nice bottle of wine with you and have rowing there and then I'm going to go out on the kayak right in front of you and you can just watch and, you know,

I got some music already for you. How would that sound? I mean, yeah, that sounds like a lot of thoughts. Yeah, sounds amazing. So, Tammy, what is it that you went in with those surgical forceps and pulled out the negative side of it versus creating a hypothetical experience that would be positive? I think because we have such a difference in what we consider enjoyable, you know, like we have our interest in what we like to do when it comes to You know a lot of spending what we consider a lot of money and things It's almost like we're trying to bend each other to each other's will like I want my to get over his fear of lying

So we can go and explore cities and go to all these faraway destinations and he wants me to get over my fear of swimming and being uncomfortable and unsteady in certain places, like a tie-back, for example, or like he wants me to like try and play these video games so we can experience these things together because that's what we both want to do for enjoyment. We don't try to do that.

We just try and force each other, or get each other to bend to each other's will versus trying to find enjoyable, calming ground. And does it work? No. Okay, so let's stop doing it. How about that? Yeah, yeah.

You know, in life, life creates enough problems for us. I don't think we need to create our own. And I think you two have been through some really tough medical challenges. You know that life creates its own problems. You don't need to go looking for them. So if something isn't working, what do you say we just stop doing it?

Yeah. It's like quite freeing actually. That old approach we tried for the last 15 years doesn't work. Hey, what do you say we just write it down, put it on the fridge and put a big red X on it. And next time one of us is tempted to try it because we're creatures of habit.

We just point back at that thing and say, you know what, we make a little fun, make a little joke, you know what, I think we're going back to our old ways. What do you say we put another X on that fridge and not do this? Yeah. Right.

We are free to rewrite our own future. The two of you are so young, you're not even 40. You have a good income, pretty good savings and investments. And I'm hearing a complete inability to dream about even picking up a snack for your husband. Yeah. Yeah. You know, these are the costs of playing defense.

Yeah. At a certain point, you just stop trying for your partner. Mm-hmm. You guys see where this is heading, right? It's not a good place. Yeah, I mean, we spend so much energy on being like, we don't have a shared vision. I have to convince the other person that my vision is the right vision versus putting that same amount of energy into just trying what the other person wants to do and just being

open to it. We're winning. You know, it's like we've convinced ourselves we're losing. Yeah. But that's very insightful. Mike, I really liked your observation that the two of you don't currently have a shared vision. No.

Yeah. And without a shared vision, you know what happens? Couples bigger over $10 purchases. That's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is. That's exactly what we do. And you spend the rest of your lives fighting over $3 questions. You're just playing defense. And in your cases, you're putting the other person down to make yourself feel good. Each of you taking a victory lap two or three times

a week at the other ones expense. So you're high, they're low, they're high, you're low. It becomes addictive as we saw, right Tammy? Love that big smile yours. Didn't love, didn't love where it came from, but I saw it. And so what if we worked on developing a shared vision right now? Yeah, I would love that. OK. You tell me, what does it look like? What is your rich life?

I think getting to that point of experiencing new things together, like Mike had said, like the enjoyment, like joy of discovering new things together and like. Like traveling. I don't even know. I know, I know, you know why you don't know. Why? If you don't know, ask Mike, get his help. You two are a team now. Ask him why you don't know how to answer the travel question. Oh, why do I not know how to answer the travel question. Oh, why do I not know how to answer the travel question?

Well, you're probably afraid of what I'm thinking while you answer it. You're probably like, well, he's already like loading up the gun to shoot it down. Is that right, Tammy? Yeah. He hates traveling. Yeah. Look at that. Look at that.

And so many things just happened in that beautiful slash horrible example. So, Tammy, her dreams are extinguished like a match trying to light in the wind. Never even gets a chance to ignite. extinguish and They're extinguished because she already suspects the worst of Mike Mike's gonna tell me I hate traveling Mike's gonna tell me that costs too much So the two of you are playing a dance with each other But it's not the kind of dance where you both come together and you're intuitive and everybody's moving to the music No, it's the worst kind of dance where you two come together and you're intuitive and everybody's moving to the music. No, it's the worst kind of dance where you two are like magnets repelling each other.

And it's just horrible to watch. Yeah. Let's flip it. This is just a hypothetical. If you don't like anything you say, you could toss it out and ignore this weird Indian guy. All right? But try it again.

This time, we're going to assume the best of each other. Let's start this way. Tammy, in this hypothetical scenario, I want you to tell me two amazing things about Mike. They can be true or you can make them up. Okay, pick one about travel and then one about whatever you want. Go ahead. He works through his ears of flying specifically. Great. What's the next great thing he does? With travel. No, anything. Oh, anything. He takes really good care of me. Love it. Now Mike. Tammy pushes me to do things outside of my comfort zone that I really love, even from afraid up front. And she also takes really good care of me and I wear a sun.

Beautiful. Okay. Now, now we're ready to talk about that rich life. Tammy, what is your rich life? Traveling and experiencing new things. Like, one of the best trips that we ever went on was we did this Wisconsin up through the U.K. of background trip and we really like planned it together

and Mike took the logistics of it and then we like looked at like really like beautiful type of outdoorsy type things together. And like that was probably one of the best trips that we've ever been on. Where do you want to travel to in your rich life? Other places like that. You're so resistant to giving me specifics.

Do you understand that a rich life is lived in specifics? You're watching us leave what a rich life is lived in specifics? Here, watch, ask me what my rich life is. Well, I, what, what's your rich life? I know what you're going to say about that. No, you don't know what I'm going to say. I like to eat and I like to travel and I like to look at some screens and watch TV and I like to breathe oxygen. Is that inspiring?

No. No, it fucking sucks. Do you understand? A rich life. That is not inspiring. Yeah, no. it fucking sucks. Do you understand? A rich guy. That is not inspiring. Yeah, no.

No. So I'll laugh with you, but I'm going to push you until you answer my question. Not for me. For you, rich life is lived in that vivid tapestry of personal details. That's why when I eat out, if I see two appetizers I like, I order both of them. It's not because I have enough money. That's not the point. The point is, when I was a kid, I couldn't order appetizers. And now I can. And so it's a great joy to me to be able to do it. So please, Tammy, where would you like to travel to in your rich life?

I would really like to take a road trip somewhere to like the western side of the United States to go through like some of the national parks and see- Which parks, which states tell me? Um, like the grand, is it grand frisome or like antelope, like all of those big canyons and stuff, that's like seems like outer space compared to like, or like a different planet compared to what we experience in the Midwest kind of a thing. Great.

Yeah, I would really love to do that. How long are you gonna take this road trip for? Probably like a week or two. Fantastic. Because I'm terrible with how long it takes to get. Me too. That's fine. So a couple of weeks. Okay, great. And you're going to see these beautiful places. What's going to make this trip extraordinary?

Doing it with Mike and just like walking and hiking and having him like bring his drone and get amazing footage and really great pictures and put together this amazing little trip diary for us to always have and creating that together is, you know, that is awesome to do that together, we did that on our trip up north, and that was so fun. Love it. Now, part of creating a rich life together is getting the other person involved.

They don't always have to love it. They don't even always have to participate. Sometimes my rich life stuff is just me. My wife has no interest in participating. That's perfectly fine. Yeah. But Tammy, it sounds like Mike is gonna be on this trip, right? Yeah. Okay. So why don't you ask him, ask him, find a way to get him involved. So it's not just you telling him what to do. Ask him something.

Yeah. I mean, would that be something that you would like to plan together? I have that giant list compiled, like looking through there to see if there's anything that's doable that we could put together similar. So like what we did with the up north trip and having you fly your drone and get excited about those places. Yeah, that would be amazing. I mean, I think that would like open up a whole new world. I think we've traveled a lot in the Midwest.

And I think that would be like something we've never experienced together. Some of that stuff I did a little bit by myself and I was younger with friends. But like, I would absolutely love to experience that. And if we could make it work with Rowan, I think that would be incredible. Like, especially because we didn't,

what do you do a little more than I did? But I especially like stayed in Michigan when I was younger for traveling I never did full stuff like that so that would be pretty incredible And I want I want to do that stuff with you and I want to introduce that stuff and normalize that stuff for Rowan That's awesome you too as parents are giving Rowan a bigger perspective on the world That there's a life outside of your city. There's different ways to live. Yeah, that's what we want.

I think we both have that shared vision. I would love to see us set plans to go to downtown to try to go ice skating at campus marshes and we never have tried skiing or anything like maybe we try to go to point mountain where we went in the summer when it was warm because we were like, oh my gosh, this would be so pretty in the winter.

And even if we don't ski, we sit outside at a bottom fire pit while it's snowing and rowing is all bundled up and running around. I love it. Okay, such a beautiful example and actually the first example I've seen of the two of you doing teamwork. That was really impressive.

I noticed Tammy that when you were forthright with what you wanted, something really magical happened. And that was that Mike started building on it. And then Tammy, you started building on it even more. And the two of you, as Mike put it, it was inevitable. You ended up at this beautiful place. Yeah. And the two of you both have a smile on your face,

which looks amazing. That's the kind of positive smile I want to see. Yeah. Now, I understand that that was just one example. I understand that I was guiding it along. I get it. But I can tell you that for the amount of income you make and for the amount you have saved and invested,

that's quite a modest dream. Oh, it seems like it's that. You have $156,000 invested. You make $135,000 a year. And you've got about 13,000 bucks in savings. Hearing those numbers, what do you think about a $3,000 trip? Seems like a small number compared

to the rest of the numbers. I think our lack of shared vision and our kind of competition on who's gonna It seems like a small number compared to the rest of the numbers. I think our lack of shared vision and our kind of competition on who's going to win. We're actually spending more than that trip probably like by monthly just investing in our own shit versus our shared vision. Yes, that's it. Yes, this is it. You two are so good. Yeah. So all these arguments about Reese's pieces and kayaks and the reason that you two fight so much that to each of you,

you're picking a battleground. You're in the corner. Each of you is a boxer. And there's nothing in the center for you to come and shake hands about. It's, I'm getting my kayak or she's getting Reese's pieces or Target and we don't have anything together. So I better get mine. Right. Oh gosh. Anyway, she's going to get hers. Sound familiar, Tammy?

Yeah, that's totally it. I think. Yeah. Now, if you were to truly develop your rich Life vision, what do you think would happen? I mean, I think we would be way happier. And I think if we can flip that script, like I think it would make things that seem impossible, possible.

It's within our control of a reciting slip away. That's beautiful. I love that. And Tammy, I love your reaction to you. See how you two build on each other when you talk about this Rich Life vision? It's so awesome. It's like true teamwork. So I love your reaction to see how you two build on each other when you talk about this rich life vision. It's so awesome. It's like true teamwork. So I love that. Okay. Here's what I would like to say. I think that from, you know, depending on your goals,

I'd like to see your investments, you know, get up to 15, 20% of your gross income. That would be great. Not saying you have to be able to do that today, but the fact that you've got a low cost of living area with a six figure income means. It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy to think about. You two could be putting away a considerable amount of money and building serious wealth. I'm talking million or millions of dollars over time. What do you say about that Tammy?

I think that's a bit unrealistic, but... Really is it? How come? Because we are, I don't know, that's not... It's just not our background at all. What background is that like Lower middle class like growing up lower middle class like I mean that's just like I don't know it sounds crazy It just seems unattainable. Yeah, you're talking like someone who grew up in the lower middle class

Mm-hmm, you know, I know that What are some of the clues you just gave me? On real, on me saying it's unrealistic or... You're face. Yeah, oh yeah. Tell me what your face did again. Like that like on board. Just complete disbelief. Your face looks like you just ate one of those sour patch gummy bears.

You're still up. Right? That's your crate. Yeah, no. Yeah. I believe, I believe. I believe he looks like he just ate one of those sourpatch gummy bear things, right? That's your crate. Yeah, no, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And would you be prepared to be the kind of person who's a millionaire? No, I don't think so. Why is that? I mean, I don't even know what that is, like what that involves,

what that looks like. I mean, that's just like, I don't, you know, I don't know, I just think of millionaires as like celebrities and like come by, like creating their own businesses, like, you know, like Fortune 500 type people, like, I don't know, I don't know, and come by creating their own business, like fortune 500 type people, I don't know. Well, I'm a millionaire, what am I wearing right now? I mean, yeah, you're in like a zip up hoodie,

but how much is that zip up hoodie? What brand is it? Okay, that's it. That's right. Two shay. Is that from old babies? Well, that's it. You just turn my own question against me. Okay, okay's it. That is okay. Two shay. Is that from old people? Maybe it was that our money. You just turn my own question against me.

Okay, okay, I'm not going to pursue this. You're too good at this. All right. Good point. I was a little tired. In this calculation I ran for you, I only assumed that you were contributing 10% of your gross income to your investments. I did not assume any raises if I assume that you're contributing 20% of your gross income.

That is $30,000 or a little over 20%, $30,000 a year. By 32 years, you have nearly $5 million. I just have one question. So my dream for you, my wish for you, is that you go from playing defense to playing offense. Offense means we're gonna create our rich life vision. We're gonna do it together. Offense is we're gonna read I will teach you to be rich to book and we're gonna do it together. Even if we don't understand everything, we're gonna do it together. Offense is we are going to take one trip or one experience

in the next 30 days just to show ourselves that we can. And most importantly, offense is not taking the verbal jabs at each other because you win in that moment but you lose for the rest of your lives. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Remedie Saiti. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read, I will teach you to be rich, my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics

for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances. you