I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 45. “She tells me that it’s my fault we can’t live the life we want to live”

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

Sarah earns more than Andrew. They’re unmarried but imagine a future together, or would like to. The problem is that Andrew’s existing money scripts (and $65k in debt) have him frozen—unable to spend but also unwilling to seriously plan a way out. She wants to spend money on things like vacations, but he doesn’t feel like he can afford to spend. To make things worse, he feels terrible about money in general because that’s how his dad raised him—his presence looms over the conversation. We need to cut out the negative judgments and help Sarah see things from Andrew’s perspective. Then we can talk to Andrew about the mindset to overcome his past—and current—money issues. Connect with Ramit Website Instagram Twitter Facebook YouTube Linkedin If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

When I sit there and I look at it all by myself, you know, it makes sense in my head. But then whenever it comes up in conversation, my mind starts spinning. I get like choked up where I get like, I don't know if it's like a nervous or like an anxious feeling that I start to feel in the back of my head. I kind of feel like I Feel like my dad standing right here What is he saying to you? All the stuff that I told me when I was a kid like money doesn't grow on trees and You need to be able to take care of your family. You can't take care of your family if you're working at McDonald's

We need to need to be successful I just want to you know like I want to live my life of your family if you're working at McDonald's, you need to be successful. I just want to, you know, like, I want to live my life to where I don't have to worry about any of that. Today I'd like you to meet Andrew and Sarah. Sarah's in her late 20s, she makes $85,000 per year and has very little debt, basically just about $10,000 left to pay off on her student loans. Andrew is in his early 30s. He makes $75,000 a year,

but he has over $65,000 in debt. They live together, but they aren't married yet. Now, here's the problem. Sarah wants to spend her money on travel and things together, but every time she brings it up, Andrew says no. After all, he has over $65,000 in debt. Sarah is getting increasingly irritated that they can't seem to do anything because Andrew always says no. And she's becoming judgmental about how he spends his money. As you listen to today's episode, I think you will see that the real story goes a lot deeper than what you initially think all the way back to Andrew's childhood. Welcome to I Will Teach you to be rich.

Andrew, I understand that recently you and Sarah discussed going to Hawaii. Can you talk me through that conversation that you had with her? Yeah, so pretty much we were actually, we were just in a gas station about to fill up my tank and so there was a long line of cars and she had brought up going to Hawaii because she had seen these ticket prices that were they were lower than usual she was you know She checks the travel sites a lot to see where we can get good deals on travel. I

She checks the travel sites a lot to see where we can get good deals on travel. I already started kind of being like, oh man, here we go talking about Hawaii again, because we had talked about this like six months before and then like a year before and it's every time we've talked about it. I felt like the bad guy because I pretty much said like it's probably not a good idea to go to Hawaii because I'm much said like it's probably not a good idea to go to Hawaii because I'm not ready for it like financially. And whenever I say that I can already see in Sarah just from her facial expression and then her demeanor, it kind of turns to this like sour look to where like almost like well what's you know what's the point of even to this like sour look to where like almost like, well, what's, you know,

what's the point of even bringing this up if we're never going to be able to go. And so I feel like I always end up being the like a burden because it's like, well, we can't go because I can't afford it. So did you do the Hawaii? We did not. Sarah, walk me through that experience when you're in the gas station and you brought up these ticket deals you found to Hawaii. What was going through your head right before you brought up the ticket prices? Well, I mean, the deal was, I thought it was really, really good.

It was round trip for $800 for two people. And then in my head, it's like, well, our last major trip was over a year ago. Surely he must have saved at least a grand or two since then, you know. He was essentially stepping on eggshells. Yeah. And how was he doing that? He was like saying, Oh, I need to, I need to check my accounts. I need to make sure that like I have enough money. I need to check my schedule, all that jazz, you know, it's almost as if he was trying to like delay the question because these deals are only for like

at most 48 hours and after that it's gone. Okay, so did you know that he was delaying the real answer? Oh yeah, I had a feeling. Okay, and then how did you respond when he said all these things? I mean, I mean, I was very disappointed. I mean, I see all my friends, you know, just going out and having fun. And it's like, you know, I want to go out and have fun too. I want to go out and have fun with Andrew. And let's go to someplace that's, I guess, exotic that's in the States. You know, I'm not asking for us to go internationally. Do you think that he can afford it? Honestly, I think he can afford it if he was a little bit more strict with his finances,

but then again, that's just me, though. Andrew, do you think you could afford it? I, I feel like I don't just because I, I know how much debt I have and I feel like having that over my like over my head, it almost makes me not want to spend even the even the money that I have even budgeted for a trip. The way my savings and all my deductions work, I actually it's based off of the rules we have in your book, funny thing. So I have like, oh, I mean, it's been working. Yeah, it's like a slow progression that's piling on those little accounts. I feel like that's a good start for me. It's just, you know, it's just like,

I feel it gets overwhelming whenever we talk about it. Cause it's kind of like, I feel like I need to keep the money that I have so I can pay this debt off. This question of can I afford it is a really interesting one. You might be shocked to know that two different people with exactly the same amount of money will look at a trip that costs $5,000 and one will say, oh yeah, I can afford that and the other will say they cannot.

I've talked to people who are about to buy something like a $1,400 handbag. And they ask what I think. I'm looking at their finances and I say, you can't afford it. And they get mad because they believe they can. So why can't we agree if we can afford something? Well, here's why.

Let me give you a couple of examples. Let's say you're thinking of taking a weekend trip to visit your old college friends. Can you afford the weekend away if you have debt? What if that debt is credit card debt? What if it's a student loan? What if it's a mortgage? You can see why the affordability question is tricky, and it can get even more complicated. For example, some people create their own internal rules of what they can afford.

Let's take me. I have a money rule that I want a year of expenses in a savings account. If I don't have that, then to me, I cannot afford a vacation. Some people just look at the price of a restaurant or a theme park and say, hey, we can't afford that. A lot of times, it's based on what they think it should cost, often what it cost 25 years ago. Sometimes it's based on how much they have

in their checking account. That is a very simplistic way that a lot of people make their financial account. That is a very simplistic way that a lot of people make their financial decisions. My point is, the can I afford a question is not as simple as you think. It is as much about your feelings as your actual numbers. You want to see what I mean? In Andrew's case, he has about $65,000 of debt, but he also has six figures of money in investments. You know, what's interesting is you have $112,000 in your investments. That's a lot at your age, 32. So how do you feel about those numbers?

Well, I mean, I know whenever I, I don't check my investments, maybe only like twice a year. My man. Maybe every six months. Following the IWT system, that's what I like. And so like whenever I see it, like actually when I looked at it to fill in the sheet

that was sent to us, that was the only other time I looked at. I was like, oh, I didn't realize I was at six digits already. And so for everybody listening, make sure you just heard what Andrew said. Oh, I just followed the I will teach you be rich system. I didn't even realize my investments were at six figures. That's how it works. All these looney tunes, people writing me online, writing, oh, should I buy this book? I don't know, I'm a left-handed Eskimo. Does it work for me because I live south of the equator?

It's an $8 book. Don't ever write me asking if you should buy, I will teach you to be rich to the book. It's $8 or get it at a library. Andrew just told you he woke up, turned on his investment account, probably at Vanguard. And it was six figures. Andrew, where's your investment account, probably at Vanguard, and it was six figures. Andrew, where's your investment account, by the way? Well, it's through my work. It's through Fidelity.

Okay, I'll take it. I have no hate for Fidelity. They're fine. All right, good job. Congratulations. But how do you feel about the rest of the numbers? Your income and your debt. The debt, that part I'm not so happy about,

because I could have paid it off when I was still living at home with my parents. But because of things that I had to do at home, before them, I was paying for a lot of things for them, with family stuff. If I didn't have to worry about paying those things off for them or whatever I was helping them pay for, I feel like I wouldn't be in this situation. So can we can we talk about what happened? Why did you have to

pay for your family? What happened? Well, the main thing is that my dad ended up filing for bankruptcy. After he stopped working, it was just my stepmom that was pretty much pulling in the, I guess, being the bread winner at that point, because she's a nurse, and she was helping trying to help out as much as she could to pay for the mortgage and their vehicles and then I have two younger brothers who also started college, have their vehicles and so there wasn't enough to pay for all those things with just my stepmom's income alone. And so then whenever I got back home or whenever

I graduated college and started working, I almost pretty much like picked up right there and like, okay, where do I need to help? How much were you sending to them? Oh, man, like almost my full paycheck. And I was getting paid, or at that time, I was getting paid about like $1,800 every two weeks. At that point, I would say like almost 75% of that would go to whatever they needed, helping for whether it was like internet, cell phone, car payment, the mower, the long guy. Why did your dad declare bankruptcy?

Because he also ran into some trouble with debt. Like what? From what I know, because I don't feel like I know the whole story actually, but from what I know, there was't feel like I know the whole story actually but from what I know there was a lot of credit card debt and I think some stuff from his past that he owed some debt collectors. I'm not I'm not 100% sure on the details but I know there was like he couldn't afford making his payments. What kind of lifestyle did your, is your dad still alive?

He is. Okay, are you still in touch with him? Oh, no, actually. And is that because of this? I don't know, it's not actually, that it's different, it's a different reason. Okay. Did he live obviously above his income?

I would say yes. What do you have the cars, the house, that kind of stuff, or what else was it? That, and then just like, I think he spent a lot on just like acquiring things, whether it's for himself or for us, because my dad's from the Philippines and he I mean he grew up dirt poor you know he told me all the stories and so he always told me that whenever

he finally moved here to the States his his dream was to you to make sure that his family wouldn't go through what he went through. I could see, I mean, he bought me all the things that I ever, you know, toys, you know, game consoles, what have you, when Emma's a kid, you know, all the nice clothes, the best shoes. How do you think his lessons rubbed off on you? What did you take away from your dad's relationship with money? Well, I think I mirrored his spending habits if I'm being honest, because I know,

I mean, I like nice stuff too. And when I get an opportunity, I'll get it from myself because it's like, oh, I have a job now and I can afford it. But of course, there's limits to that. And then now I'm in this problem that I'm in. Did you buy nice stuff?

What are we talking about? Clothes? What else? Yeah, clothes. And then I'm also really big into like health and like supplements and stuff like that. Oh, no. What are you getting? What are what supplements are you taking?

Just tell me. Well, I take all sorts of things. Oh, God. I take athletic greens. Of course. Would you hear some podcasts add somewhere? Come on. Yeah.

Come on. I know that's what you heard about it. Okay. Yes, for sure. I take that and. Let me guess. Let me just guess. Tony, you got fish oil, glutamine, protein, some carnitine,

or what I don't know how to pronounce it. Am I getting these right? What else? Yeah. Vitamin D and zinc. Tell me. You're pretty close. Yeah.

How much you spend on this? Yes. Come on. Oh, man. At least like $250. Like, come on. Are you serious? at least like $250 per month. Are you serious? Yeah.

Look at Sarah's face right now. Sarah, what's going through your mind as you heard this right now, please? Can I say, I say profanity? Yes, we love profanity on this show. Okay, first of all, Andrew, what the fuck? Did you know that? I mean, I knew that it was expensive, but holy fuck.

Yeah. And 250 per month times 12, that's a lot of money. Sarah, what do you think that money could have been used for? No, for your dad. No, buying me nice things. Okay. But yeah, move to your dad. Andrew, what do you think? I mean, 250, okay.

I agree. We all have nice things we like. I, you know, I'm never here to break people about that. think? I mean, 250, okay. I agree. We all have nice things. We like, you know, I'm never here to break people about that. Except, I mean, come on, most of those things have no efficacy that's been proven whatsoever. And supplements is basically one of the most bullshit industries on the planet. But okay, besides that, you like it. It seems you spend your money on it. I get a lot of comments from people who accuse me of being hypocritical on my rich life philosophy. For example, when I point out that some dude can afford a $75,000 truck, their clever reply is, repeat, maybe that's part of their

rich life. Let's get one thing straight. You can't just point at something you want and twirl around three times and chant rich life, rich life, rich life, and then suddenly buy it with my blessing. The set of works, your rich life has to be something you can afford. That's table stakes. It's like breathing oxygen. You all intuitively get this. If your high school buddy said, my rich life is buying a private jet, you'd roll your eyes because you know he can't afford it. But how can we don't apply that level of rigor to someone buying cars, or clothes, or trips, or even the type of place they choose to live in?

I want you to start critically evaluating the purchases you make, not just using my rich life lens, but also using the affordability lens. This takes more than just your feelings. It means knowing your numbers. How much are you saving each month? What's your investment rate? What's your debt, payoff date? A few minutes ago, we talked about how complex this question can be of knowing how much

you can afford. Well, knowing what you know now, do you think Andrew can afford a trip with Sarah? Can he afford $250 a month on supplements? What do you think? Listen in. Where did the credit card debt come from? The credit card debt, different things, it comes from anything that I have that's automatically being like deducted from my credit card, like internet. Internet doesn't get you to $17,000 in credit card debt. No, it doesn't. And then for sure. Okay. And then every day stuff, gas, and also if like if we go out to eat or something, and I offer to pay, then I'll also put that on the card. Yeah, that's pretty much it. It's just like.

This doesn't add up yet. I want to understand it. 250 bucks a month on supplements. Okay, while I might not spend that much fine, but that would take you years and years to accumulate $17,000 of credit card debt. What else? It's just stuff that I would buy for myself, like whether it's like stuff for working out, like a year for working out.

My, I also do, so I also practice do just two. And so I, I, I pay for a year's worth, like, a fee to, how much it's like $2,000. No, that's not it either. Okay. It's kind of interesting. I was, yeah, it was like $6,000. Holy fuck. And did you take out a loan for that?

Well, originally I did. Okay, keep going. Yeah, originally I did and then whenever I Okay, keep going. Yeah, originally I did. And then whenever I spoke to Sarah about it, that's when we kind of got into an argument about that. And then that's when she offered to loan me the $6,000. And so then I could pay the loan off

and then I would owe her the $6,000. What does this course get you? Well, I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get out of the hospital environment. I'm trying to, I'm trying to find a new avenue of work. So will this course get you that? Potentially yes. Currently right now, I'm saving close to like 40% of my income, just to put a down payment on like a house.

At one point, I was paying most of the rent, you know, and to be fair here, that like, there are days where I don't see Andrew as my equal, because I'm the breadwinner I'm the provider I make more money at some point it's just like hey like you're kind of dragging me down. Andrew what do you think hearing that? Well that that's the part that I get triggered on and it hurts whenever we have these conversations because that's usually what gets said in these conversations that it's like, you know, it's because of me that we can't, you know, we can't live the life that we want to live.

So this isn't the first time you've heard that? No. Okay. And when you hear that, what is your reaction? I mean, I'm like crying on the inside. Like, it just... Because it's like for me, it's like... I just feel like so unfair about how it happened before I decided to move out of the house

and like after graduating college, like all those the last decade of my life, I feel like you know, it wasn't my fault. And so like it really, like it makes me really sad and upset at the same time because I know, like, if I could have just, you know, maybe I should have just left the house sooner or something and just not have worried about anything and then I could have just taken care of myself, then maybe I wouldn't be in the situation, you know, so. And so long.

How long did you live with your family? I mean, it was probably until I was like 27. Wow, okay. So four or five years after you graduated college and then, and you had between the time you left and now, it's been what about five years? Yeah, like, because I pretty much, I moved out of the house when I got with Sarah

because I mean, they didn't really take to her. I don't know, I don't think they really liked us being together. So why is that? Well, um, the biggest thing is she's not for the Pino. Um, yeah. So is your family very traditional? Uh, I would yeah like a hundred thousand

percent but I know a lot of Filipino I have some really close Filipino friends and they their family doesn't care if they're with Filipinos or not I'm so surprised by this. Oh trust me I am like I'm the same way I got friends that are Filipino and they're with Vietnamese women and you know you know, and so like, just like Sarah and I, that's what, that's how we are. And, and so like, I mean, that's just one reason. I don't, I don't know what else, but I know for sure that's it because ever since I started seeing her,

it's never been the same. I'm sorry to hear that. That's, that's awful. I'm sorry to hear that. That's not your fault. Sarah, it's obviously not your fault. And uh, yeah, I wish that it weren't like that. Okay. What I'm more curious about is the last five years in which you've accrued all that debt. What has been going on there? Like I don't like Sarah feeling like I'm the burden. And so I always do what I can to,

like if I can buy something that we need or that, you know, if I can pay for dinner sometime or if I can, you know, pay for an experience, like, I don't know, a concert or something just so that we can like spend time together and experience life together, then I'm going to do that whether or not like I had, I had enough money in my checking account. What is the man in the relationship mean? Well, the way I was raised at least, and I don't know if I believe this now, but when my dad would always tell me, you need to, you're responsible for the house. You have to take care of the house. You have to take care of your wife your kids

You have to pay for pay for everything, you know like you have to be responsible like Just like all these hard Hard things that were drilled into me when I was a kid What was the first time you remember hearing this? to me when I was a kid. Yeah, what was the first time you remember hearing this? Probably like when I was like six, like five, like first grade second. Really? Yeah. What do you remember your dad saying to you about money when you were young?

Oh, man, he had always told me, number one thing, he'd always say, money doesn't grow on trees. That was what he would always tell me. And then he would always tell me, don't go out there and like be flipping hamburgers and you know, at a minimum wage job, you know, you need to be successful or else you're not going to, you're not going to be able to pay for what you want in life. That always was ingrained in me. When you think back to those two things that your dad said a lot, how do you feel? Well, like now, now I feel like I almost feel like it wasn't exactly true because I mean yeah I mean maybe money doesn't grow on trees but then like

for me I feel like if you just if you put in the effort and you know you work hard enough you'll be able to you'll be able to reach your goal you know and so that, I mean, it just kind of hurts inside whenever, you know, like when I talk about it now, it's like, how am I supposed to understand that at five, six years old? Yeah. You seemed angry when you said those two things. Like, it almost seemed like an insult coming out of your mouth. Did you notice that? No, actually. That's why I asked. It can't be easy to think about your dad giving you money lessons and then him going bankrupt and causing you to sacrifice your early 20s for his behavior.

Do you ever talk to him about that? I have actually. What happened? Yeah, it wasn't a pretty conversation. Actually, that's like another reason why, another reason why him and I don't really talk to each other anymore. He was too proud.

If I'm being honest, I think so, yeah, I mean, I mean, he told me like how dare, how dare I say that to him. You know, like how, who, who, you know, you wouldn't be here. You wouldn't be where you are if it wasn't for me. The classic Asian parent guilt. We all know it well. Yeah. And I didn't know.

And like just talking about it now, like it really, it makes me, it really hurts inside because it's like, it's not,'s like, it's wrong. Like all the stuff he said, it really is. And then I feel like I realize that too late or something. And then like you said, I mean, that's what I feel like. I feel like now I have to catch up. And then like, with Sarah, I don't want her to feel like, oh, because of him, I can't move forward either.

These childhood events create deep grooves. They're not something you can simply shrug off. One of the reasons I started this podcast was to show you how deeply our upbringing can affect us even 30 years later. It's hard to grapple with that when you hear someone spending $250 a month on supplements when he's in debt. But as you start to hear about how Andrew grew up and what he faced, even as a young adult, my hope is that you start to empathize with what he went through. That doesn't mean you have to agree with how he spends his money today. But my hope is that at least we can start to understand that we all come to our financial lives with different experiences. We all come to our

lives with different cultural views and invisible scripts. And if we start to internalize that and understand it, it can help us understand why people think and behave the way they do around their money. It can even help you understand yourself. I get a lot of questions from people who have used my book.

They've automated their finances. They've set their investments up. They go, all right, I did the basics. What's next? And when you've made a lot of money, you'll notice that there's not a lot of advice specifically for you. The blog posts that are typically focused around people who are just starting off or even people in debt

do not really apply to you anymore. And it can also be embarrassing to ask. You can't really post about certain topics when you have money because your friends don't know how much you make and nobody really wants to hear about, how do I take cooler vacations? Or what do you all do for tax optimization? Because the first response is, oh, rich people problems.

I don't like that phrase because rich people problems are problems nonetheless. How are you supposed to find someone you trust, whether it's an accountant or a travel advisor? The usual advice that you find on Google doesn't really apply at a certain level. So if you've made a big jump in income or net worth and you wish you had a community of people

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Recently on the show you heard me speak to Jennifer and Andrew. They were struggling to pay off their credit card debt, and they had a bunch of subscriptions that they didn't even know about. Look, if you love having all these subscriptions and you can afford it, I'm all for it. But a lot of times when people actually see all the subscriptions they've signed up for months or years ago, they realized they need to make a change

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or you could use it to pay off debt even faster. Stop throwing your money away. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions, and manage your expenses the easy way by going to rocket money.com slash remit. That's rocket money.com slash R-A-M-I-T. How do you feel about being now even higher earner in the relationship? How do I feel about being the higher earner? I mean, it's just nice to have extra money, but I just felt that with the extra income,

you kind of have to delegate part of the money to help the other partner out in their situation. Okay, so great. So you're earning more money the way you think of it is, hey, I can use this that the man should earn more, even though you earn more, it doesn't seem like there is a gender issue for you. Am I reading that correctly? No, there's not really a gender issue for me, but in my head, it's like hypothetically, if we do have kids, you know, I'm probably not gonna be working as much.

And so then at that point, I'm like, hey, like, I need you to bring a home, the bacon, just so I could focus on taking care of this human being. Well, bring home the bacon. So currently Andrew makes 75k and you Sarah make 85k. Is that correct? Yes. So if and when you have children What's your expectation? Actually, have you two talked about this expectation if you have kids? No, yeah, whoa. This is interesting. You just said no. And Andrew's not in yes. Whoa, I love this. It was more so the fact about like having kids not so much. Yeah. Yeah. So am I correct in assuming that you have discussed one day potentially having kids? Yes. Okay, fine. So let's say you have kids and Sarah, you have the child.

I would probably be working at reduced workload. So sometimes like they'll just cut my paycheck. Got it. Okay, so best case, you would take some time off and then go back to a reduced workload, whether that be remote or in the office or whatever, but your pay would be cut. Okay. And so, since you're the higher earner, you know, a larger proportion of the household income would be cut. Would you be able to make it? You know, if you dropped like 40K or 50K from your paycheck?

I mean, assuming that we don't have any really big debts and whatnot, we could, especially since I've aggressively saved, I think that I have over a year's worth of savings. Notice that we've gone on this long in the conversation without talking about specific numbers. That is on purpose. Too many people jump right into the numbers. I'm talking about financial advisors and I'm talking about you. You sit down to have your first conversation about money and you nerds open up

your 34 sheet financial model with a PNL. Nobody wants to see that shit. I know, I know. Sell C 45 never talked back to you. It's so logical. The formula is exquisite. The problem is nobody cares. If you want to get on the same financial page, you have to start where people do care.

That's why I always ask people about a specific money situation they remember and about their rich lives and how they grew up. And then maybe we'll talk about the numbers. Now, when you get to the numbers, it helps to have a way to talk about them. And the way to do that is to use a conscious spending plan. This can give you structure on where your money is currently going and where you want it to go. You can download your own copy of my conscious spending plan at iwt.com slash episode 45. That's iwt.com slash episode 45. How can you have read my book and you haven't like run, created your conscious spending plan?

I'm curious, I'm not judging, I'm just curious. like run, created your conscious spending plan. I'm curious, I'm not judging, I'm just curious. Cause you know, in some ways you're pretty savvy. I'm looking at how much you have in investments, six figures by age 32, that's great. But at the same time you're sitting here saying, I just don't know how to sort these numbers out. I feel like when I sit there and I look at it all, like by myself, you know, it makes sense in my head.

But then I think it's just whenever it comes up in conversation, I tend to like, that's when my mind starts spinning. And it's kind of like, I don't know. It's almost like, okay, well, I had to like, that's when my mind starts spinning. And it's kind of like, I don't know. It's almost like, okay, well, I had this plan, but then now my plan's not there anymore. Because I feel like I get, like, I get like choked up where I get like, I don't know if it's like a nervous or like an anxious feeling that I start to feel if it's like a nervous or like an anxious feeling that I start to feel whenever

it's like, like for example, if it's Sarah and she's, we're talking about finances. Like, I just, I almost like in the back of my head, I kind of feel like, I feel like my dad's standing right here. What is he saying to you? Like all these, all the stuff that I told me when I was a kid all those things about like money doesn't grow on trees and like you know like you need you need to be able to take care of your family. You can't take care of your family if you're working at McDonald's like, it's like, I just feel like there's like a presence of him looming over as like,

we're having this conversation, like Sarah and I would be talking. Do you want to keep him here? Do you want to get rid of him? A hundred percent get rid of him. Okay, let's do it. I can help you do it. You want to? Yes, please, absolutely. Do you believe that it's possible? I, yeah. Okay, good. You said, yeah, with a question mark at the end, but I'll take it. Okay, let's do it. Let's, let's start with this because I am confident you can get to the numbers part of it. And candidly, I'm looking at your numbers and you can get to the numbers part of it. And candidly, I'm looking at your numbers,

and there's a way out. I could tell you right now, I looked at your numbers, it took me five seconds. I said, there's a light at the end of the tunnel here, but you don't yet see it. Do you know why? No. Because your vision is clouded by your death.

Because you're looking at these same numbers I'm looking at, but you have a set of lenses on that are smudged and blurry with your dad's fingerprints all over them. So when you say we take those lenses off, put on a new clear pair of lenses, okay? All right, let's do it together. On one shoulder, you have your dad. He's whispering in your ear. He's saying money doesn't grow on trees, Andrew. Don't work at McDonald's. Even though you make $75,000 a year, you are not working at McDonald's. What he says

still gets you, doesn't it? Yeah. Okay. Well, you know your dad's name. Usually I name these characters. We don't have to put your dad's name out here, but just think of that character chattering on your shoulder in your ear. That's your dad. Now I want you to replace on the other shoulder a new character. Who is somebody you look up to? It could be a real life person. It could be a family member, college friend, even a character from TV. Whatever, can you think of somebody who you really admire when it comes to money? Yeah.

This is somebody who makes you feel good about yourself. Somebody who shows you it's possible to be even better than you are today. And they know that sometimes you're gonna fall. That's okay. But they just gently guide you, pick you back up, point you in the right direction. Who gives you good advice about money? Actually, Sarah does.

Okay, Sarah. Wait, this is interesting. Sarah, well, we can't have Sarah on your shoulder. That's too weird. You know, you're dating Sarah. Sarah can also be whispering in your ear. It's too much, too much Sarah. But just for the sake of curiosity, what would

Sarah tell you about money? I mean, she would definitely tell me like if I don't need it, I shouldn't buy it. Okay. It's good advice. What else? Wow. She would also tell me not to get her anything, don't get her anything extravagant because it's, or else she's killing me. I don't think she wants me spending a lot of money. I love a good homicide threat on this podcast. It's good. Okay. And have you bought her anything expensive?

Other than like a trip to Vegas, like earlier when we started dating, that's probably like the most expensive thing. But okay, so if Sarah's giving you good financial advice, how come you're not taking it? I'm not taking it. I feel like I feel like I feel like it's my dad talking to me. Yeah, I'm going to do something I don't usually do. I'm going to do two things I don't usually do. The first is to be more directive. Okay, I'm going to, usually I like you to come to the answer, but it feels like you're struggling with this person on your shoulder.

And that's why I'm gonna do the second thing I usually don't do, which is, I'm gonna be the person on your other shoulder. I almost never get this directive on the podcast, certainly not with naming the person on your shoulder. That's because it's actually an important part of my process that people put skin in the game. But Andrew is really struggling here. And I don't think he's doing the regular old innocent dough routine. I suspect part of the reason why he stuck here is that his confidence is just totally shattered. So I'm going to lend him a helping hand for now.

Okay, you seem to struggle with getting some good financial advice. Gee, if only there was somebody here who could share a couple of little tidbits to help you with your finances. I wonder who that person could be. Well, here I am. Okay. Fate has brought us together

and therefore I must deliver. All right. Listen. Listen to what I'm going to say. Now, this is what's going to happen. Okay. Your dad's on one shoulder. Now you have this bushy, bushy, brown Indian dude with really hairy arms on the other,

okay? He's wearing a nice cashmere sweater and anytime you face a financial situation, you have this little Gremlin-sized Indian guy on your other shoulder, okay? It's great. Nobody ever walked around with a little doll, Gremlin like this. Now you do. So what does he slash I tell you about your finances? He tells me that I need to have systems in place. Okay. Good. What else? I love this guy. What else? You gotta have a plan and like know your numbers.

Fuckin' love this guy. Keep going, keep going. This is music to my ears. And then, like, and then I mean, make sure you know, understand compound interest. Okay. Very good. What does he say about debt about your debt? I know that like there's like the debt pay your debt soft would be like thought like well the

debt snowball that's the biggest thing. Okay good that I can think of. What does he say about spending $6,000 on some course when you have a ton of debt? Hey, you're dead off first. Yeah. And what about, what does he say about your debt and your relationship? Well, I know there's a part,. You have to communicate with your partner. Do you think, does he think you can do it? Yes. Yeah, is he confident in you?

Yes. Does he think that you can do it today and you can begin and not have to wait 10 years from now? Yes. Does he think you're strong enough to do this even though your dad is on your other shoulder? Yes. And does he think that Sarah can be a good partner to you?

Not an adversary, but a partner. Yes. You're right. I think all those things. What are you thinking hearing this? I mean, it just makes me feel a little bit emotional, honestly. Why? Well, because I mean, I never got told, like, you know, I feel like nobody ever believed

in me when I was a kid. And so, it's just, I guess it's just nice to hear. I believe in you. I believe in you. Sarah, do you believe in Andrew? Yeah, 100% Andrew, I believe in you. I don't think you need to wait for some magical day. I think you already dreamed big.

I think you were a big. I think you worked hard. You did it. It's quite impressive. You saved a hundred thousand dollars in your investments. Even though you were taking care of your family in your early 20s. I can see your emotional right now. Can you share why? Because I... Like, all I ever wanted was I just didn't want to end up like... I didn't want to end up like my parents or like my dad. And so like, I just want to, you know, like, I want to live my life

to where I don't have to worry about any of that. And it's just... and um it's just it just it I guess I just it just it was hurt it hurts and I I don't really know how to explain it but I just I just felt like you know nobody it's like I was doing a mountain to nothing. And um... It just was just nice to hear, like, okay.

It's like, I do got this. And it's like, you know, my dad was wrong. Yeah. That's when you become a true adult. When you can see your parents for who they were, trying their very best, and you can, with some perspective, assess, take the best of what they taught you,

and then create your own path forward. Okay, you have a great relationship with Sarah. The two of you have been together, financially speaking, when you combine your incomes. You do quite well, but there's just this ghost in the relationship that just floats above everything. Who do you think that ghost is Andrew? My dad.

Yeah. And he's not the ghost we want to admire. think that ghost is Andrew? My dad. Yeah. And he's not the ghost we want to admire. He went bankrupt. So if we're going to have a ghost in the relationship, why don't we just pick a better ghost? And for whatever reason this ghost is now me, at least for now, you could change whoever you want. But, you know, what I wanted to show you there, Andrew,

is that you can choose who you put on your other shoulder. You can choose whose advice you take. You don't have to only listen to the things that were drilled into you from age six. Okay, so what do you say we actually go ahead and talk about a plan? The reason that I spent so much time talking to you about your dad and trying to understand Sarah's perspective

here is that mathematically, this is quite simple, you know? It's not that hard, but I knew there's got to be something else going on here for you both to have applied to come on the show because with your income it's kind of like let's just solve this, let's knock this out of the park and move on. But a rich life isn't just about path. It's about so much more than that. I think today we're really getting into some of that. Okay. Here's what I would do in that situation. Number one, I would take everything I had

and focus it on getting that credit card debt paid off. Cannot pay the minimums anymore. Okay. I would write it down. You can go to debt payoff calculator, Google that, and you will be able to calculate if I pay an extra hundred dollars a month, how much faster will this thing be paid off? In your case, it'll be paid off years sooner, years by just an extra hundred or 200 a month. Okay? Because your credit card

interest rate is so much higher than your student loans, in my situation, I would also take whatever money beyond the minimum for my student loans and I would focus it directly at the credit card. That's me, right? That's up to you how you want to do it, but you will be able to calculate that with the debt payoff calculator. But I can tell you right now, you have a lot of money that is unaccounted for. If you make $75,000 a year,

like where's all this money? It's not sub, like supplements 250 a month. Up until recently I was paying a car payment. What kind of car? Matt, Acura, TLX. How much is that car? It was like 37 at the time. And now you paid off? Yes. From like after beginning of February, I paid my last payment. How long are you going to keep that car? I mean, right now I actually, I don't plan on getting a new vehicle.

Good answer. You better keep that car for the next 10 years. Don't even dream of getting a new car for the next few years. Okay? Good. You paid it off. happy to hear it. Great. What are you doing with the payments

you used to make towards the car? Where's that money going? Well, now, so like this month, like March and then April, was like the first month where I had extra money from the car payment. And then the other thing that I also paid off was a consolidated loan that I had from like maybe four or five years ago now that I paid that off and that was

like another $1,000 a month that was being paid to as well. So all this this pay off of this loan and then my car all happened like around January, February. So it's only recently that I'm able to, that I have like this extra money now that can go towards something. Well, yeah, I get that. So how come you don't sound happy at all? I think... You sound like you listen to a 90s emo song all day long in the rain and you're just like looking out the window with like an old tattered book in your hand listening to some Sarah McLaughlin or something and just like one solitary tear rolling down your

eye. What are you talking about, dude? You have like thousands of dollars a month. What's going on here? What I feel at least is like, I feel like now that I have this extra, yeah, these extra dollars in my check-in account, I almost kind of feel like I want to keep it, like, you know, keep it to myself or something like. What does that mean?

Keep it to yourself so that it goes to athletic greens. Where? Keep it to yourself means what? I mean, really for me, it makes me feel more secure. Okay, I understand that. So let's keep some of it. And let's pay down that debt so you can get out from under this weight. How about that?

Yes. How much was your car payment? It was like $472. Okay. A month. And you had a consolidated loan payment was like $472 a month. And you had a consolidated loan payment of $1,000 a month. Okay, where's the rest of the money going? You had $1,000 in rent, $1,000 in loans, $472 in car payments. What else?

You guys eat out? Ever? Yeah. How much is that? Uh, between like 50, 50 to 100. It's pretty, it's not that much. That's like what do you guys eat for that much in an entire month?

How many meals is that? Probably like just a few. Yeah. Okay. Let's go. Yeah. Fine. It feels like you're missing like thousands of dollars right now. Maybe about a thousand, 1500 bucks we're missing.

I'm guessing some of that is your student loan payment. Basically what I'm telling you is you don't know your numbers. Without being competent, it's impossible to be confident. You have a lot of money you can use to redirect towards your debt. You told me it feels hopeless. You feel like you're behind. But you know, I wanted to point this out to both of you. Do you know I've spoken to couples who have $800,000 of debt?

And they didn't even sound as down as the two of you. What does that tell you? That it's more about like you feel about the situation. Yes. In other words, your feelings about money are highly uncorrelated with the amount you have in the bank. Andrew, what that means is you could pay off your debt tomorrow, and you would still feel bad about money.

I don't say that to make you worry. I say that to tell you, I want you to get aggressive about paying off the set. It's not doing anything for you. You don't even know what you spent the $17,000 in credit card. You can't even name anything. spent the $17,000 in credit card. You can't even name anything. Let's just get rid of it. But also, you have to simultaneously work

on your money psychology. You can do both, but they are two parallel tracks. And of course, one will help the other. Right now, we're working on the plan. So a thousand dollars in rent, great, don't change a thing. I love that you two have managed this rent, which is low. And it's just great. Awesome. Car payment done. I wouldn't have advised you to get that car, but you paid it off. It's a card that's going to run for a long time. Fantastic. So you take this extra $1,500 a month. And what do you do with it? Andrew?

Take care of the credit card. Yeah. How fast do you think that credit card debt will go away? Make it less than a year. Correct. Exactly. Now, you can now choose. Hey, you say, Rumi, you know, I like to have a little bit of this money in my savings account. It makes me feel better. That's totally fine. Life isn't just about the mathematically optimized answer.

So you might say instead of paying 1,500 bucks a month, I'm gonna take 200 bucks a month and keep it in my savings account. But I'll take the rest of it and I'll put it towards my credit card. I would love that. I love when people develop their own point of view about money.

That's up to you. That's like you choosing how much salt you wanna put on some dish. Totally love it. That's up to you. That's like you choosing how much salt you want to put on some dish. Totally love it. That's up to you. But I think what's important is that you choose your path, you automate it so that the credit card is automatically being sent money and that you and Sarah talk about that plan. When you talk to Sarah about money, I want you to come to her with a proposal. What you just said to her was a bunch of worries. We got to reshift the way you talk about money. You coming up with a bunch of problems is not the way to talk about money. I need you to come with a proposal. Sarah can have accepted or rejected, but it shows that you are taking the initiative

when you come with a proposal. So try that again. So, so what I, what I propose that we do is that I will take the money that I have, but I left over from the after all of my checking expenses get deducted, I'll take that money and pay it straight to the credit card. And then I will hold off, I will hold off paying you the monthly grocery expenses and things like that until after the credit card is paid off.

Is that a planet sounds manageable to you? Yeah, that sounds manageable. So far, we've heard Sarah's frustrations. We've also heard that Andrew's spending habits are deeply shaped by his experience growing up, especially with his dad. I think Andrew's learning seems like he's having some breakthroughs today. But there's something that's been bothering me. Neither of them are really putting skin in the game.

They've signed up to come on this podcast. They sent me all their financial details. They've opened up about a lot. But they're still not actually asking for help. And this is what's driving me crazy. If they're not asking for help, they're not really putting skin in the game. They're just replaying their old arguments again, and they are not putting themselves in

the position to receive help. And you know what that does? That puts me in the uncomfortable position of just blabbing on and on to two people who don't really want to hear it. So what I'm going to do here is I'm going to call out the elephant in the room. I want them to understand what they're actually doing and not doing. I'm going to wait until the two of you ask for help or we're going to all end up dead on this call from silence. I will watch my hair turn white before I volunteer to help you because the two of you are not asking at all. Have you noticed that?

What do you think we should do? What do you suggest? I know. I should do. I love Andrew's example of taking both of your loves of experiences and baking that in. It could be a date night, could be a brunch, it could be, you both love going for a road trip or a drive somewhere, it could be YouTube planning on when you're both gonna have a million dollars and you know, you're 0.7% closer to it. It could be the two of you going through my rich life process and discussing what, you know, when are you gonna get married

and putting aside $10 or $50 a month, you could go through my wealth triggers program together and talk about money psychology and where you want to spend money once the debt is paid off. There are so many things you can do to make money fun. Oh my God, I'm having fun looking at your finances right now because when I saw your application and I saw your numbers, I go, why are they so down? Like we could knock this dead out pretty fast. It's not that big. And now that I talk to you, I understand why. It has very little to do with the numbers.

These numbers are incredibly manageable. Q2 don't know how to have fun with money. You don't have a vision of something awesome that's in your rich life. There's no joy. And it makes me sad because I want joy. With the amount of money you earn and the amount of investments you have, it would be a tragedy if you can't find a way to use money to feel joy, to use money to be generous, to use money to live these amazing experiences.

That's why I wanted to talk to you. And that's why I kept pushing you both on this call. Now that, I mean, I'm able to distinguish the whole thing with like my dad and everything and understanding how that affects me and then the relationship as well. I think moving forward, I'll be able to catch myself in those moments when I'm talking to Sarah and be able to have a better understanding of not just like how I'm how I'm showing up into this conversation but then also understanding where she's coming from as well. My intentions are STI, I mean, is to knock this dead out and you know be able to

live those live good experience like I don't Like I don't want, I don't want to waste the time. So I'm all about making this as smooth as a process as I can. Sarah, how do you feel about that? Yeah, we are in it together. This is a problem affects both of us. So it takes two to be a team and just have to support each other. And then, you know, I'll always be there to support him. Even if he somehow gets up track, I'll always be there to support him. We'll figure out a plan and we'll get back on track. What about when he pays off his debt and he has mastered the ability to talk about money?

Once he pays off his debt, he's going to buy me a ring. No. You know, I hope that we will continue to have these healthy financial discussions and then figure out what we could do jointly as a couple, whether it'll be, you know, a wedding or like a house or us going on a random trip. Like, would that be fun to talk about? Yeah. Then why don't you start talking about it today? You don't have to wait. That's my point.

A rich life is lived today and tomorrow. That's the way to make your conversations fun. You don't need a cupcake and you don't need a clown car. What you need is to talk about the things that are important to the two of you. Talk about them. Discuss them, make a plan, put a little bit of money towards it, even $20.

That's the beginning of a rich life. I received an email from Andrew after we talked. He took my advice, he filled out a conscious spending plan to help him pay off his debt. If you'd like to get a copy of that conscious spending plan, go to iwt.com slash episode 45 and enter your email address. Here's a little excerpt of what Andrew said. Rameet, what surprised me the most is, quote, I didn't realize how much my dad's influence still stuck with me.

I've actually had therapy before because of my toxic relationship with my family, and this isn't the first time my dad has come up in conversations like we had. Andrew has a lot to work on. And Andrew and Sarah have a lot to work on together. He has put together a plan where he will pay $1472 towards his debt every single month and still have money left over for guilt-free spending. If you want to put together your own

conscious spending plan, go to iwt.com slash episode 4-5. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Remiith Saiti. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read, I will teach you to be rich, my book. Pick up a copy.

You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances. music