I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 98. “We make $280,000. Why does he keep shooting down my dreams?”

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

Sarah and Charlie are in their mid 30s living in Mexico City. They are foodies who love to travel, married for 5 years and earning in the top 1% for their location. Sarah has big dreams, but Charlie holds them both back – a dynamic we learn is seen, and heard, elsewhere in their lives. This episode is brought to you by: BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/ramit today to get 10% off your first month. LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at DrinkLMNT.com/RAMIT. Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions – and manage your expenses the easy way – by going to httpS://rocketmoney.com/ramit. Ness Well | IWT listeners can get an extra 5K welcome bonus when they apply for the Ness Card at nesswell.com/ramit. Links mentioned in this episode • Get the Podcast Newsletter and exclusive Q&A about the show • Guilt-free spending guide • Submit a question for the newsletter at iwt.com/askramit  Connect with Ramit • Get Money Coaching with Ramit  • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

I don't know that he always listens to me. I mean, I know he doesn't always listen to me. I felt like I ran into a brick wall of no. What do you say? He said, we can't afford that. We can't do that. I mean, I felt like someone had popped me like balloon and I just, I got angry.

I mean, I just got really upset and I went to the numbers and he was like, what do you mean we can't afford that? Like, we can't afford it. No, it never does. He's really stuck in a lot of ways and really stuck playing the same loops in his head. And we just play out the same dynamic over and over again. And I try really hard to step out of it. We've talked about separating.

We just passed our five-year anniversary and I would say three and a half of those have been really rocky. It affects our relationship by making me question whether it's the right one. Making it feel frustrated because it feels like, okay, we're so far, like we're doing so well, and yet, we're just so far away from, like, you know, the, the, the sky's a limit. I have work hard to arrive at where we are. And I feel content. My Godfilling is to just stay here and be very protective. Has your gut ever led you astray? Yes.

I'd like for you to meet Sarah and Charlie. They're both in their 30s. Sarah is originally from the United States, but now they are both living in Mexico City. Now Sarah wants to live her rich life with Charlie, but Charlie is constantly worried that they will not have enough money. And as we peel the onion today, you're going to discover lots of fascinating layers behind what's really going on. It all starts with Sarah's recent trip to a beach house. Sometimes you discover you're not living your rich life

when you have a taste of it and then you come back to reality. I came back from a friend's bachelor at party. My excitement was like 20 out of 10. I'm not a beach person and Charlie really loves the beach and I was like, how I like, I did this great beach thing. It wasn't a specific proposal, it was just like banter. I felt like I ran into a brick wall of no.

What do you say? He said, we can't afford that, we can't do that. I mean, I felt like someone had popped me like balloon and I just, I got angry. I mean, I just got really upset and just, and I went to the numbers and it I just got really upset and just, and I went to the numbers and I was like, what do you mean we can't afford that? Like, we can't afford it.

And- Did that work? No, it never does. It never does, like, it never does. I felt like I was coming to him with like, something that I thought he was gonna be really excited about because he loves the beach so much. And I'm so pale, I could burn in the moonlight. And so like, going to beaches not usually have my radar. And so I thought he was going to, maybe this time,

he was gonna match my excitement. And I just felt like I couldn't even, I felt like I couldn't even dream with him without getting shot down. Charlie, what do you remember about that conversation? I couldn't even, I felt like I couldn't even dream with him without getting shot down. Charlie, what do you remember about that conversation? I remember she came back, we're excited and she was describing how they rented a house on the beach and she said, like, well, I discovered a way of how I enjoyed traveling to the beach. She said, like, we now just need to rent a house.

What I imagined is us renting a house that was like 90% empty and I was just paying for like something that's gonna be even used like I don't know Liberating our in our B&B that has like five rooms. It's beautiful is like you know beachfront has a whatever pool and And I thought like sure that's enjoyable But I'm not gonna enjoy pay for how this like almost empty and it's enjoyable, but I'm not going to enjoy pay for how the like almost empty and it's just us. It says that we can't afford that.

Is that true? You can't afford a five bedroom house? Well, we can. It just doesn't make sense to me. But you said we can't afford it. Yes. That's a bad financial decision. Like that's throwing away money. Okay, and by the way, did she say that it was a five bedroom house that she wanted to rent with you? Not specifically, I don't like to throw away money.

Like I hate when we throw away food. I'm gonna remember something like we book a vacation and we ended up, like just a weekend, a trip for a weekend and we couldn't end up going and they couldn't cancel the hotel. And that's just an example, I don't even know that actually happened. But again, I think, what would that make you feel like? Like disgusted, like, is like, what kind of idiot are you like, for yourself? If you throw away food, do you feel the same way? I certainly don't like it. Because we work hard to have the things we have, I'm going to just pick for myself, but

I don't come from a higher income family. Like, it's very well-middle class, but I'm certainly doing better than my parents and my family general. I'm very proud of that, but I'm also very protective of that, I guess. What, uh-huh. So, discuss it is a pretty strong word. Yes, I am harsh.

Like, in the way I judge other people because I'm harsh with how I judge myself. Oh, okay. So you have high expectations for people around you? Yes, and I do have it for myself, Sarah, sometimes things that I don't enforce those high expectations of myself. And please correct me from wrong. That's confusing, because it sounds like you

are holding very high standards for yourself, like you're verbally beating yourself up. Let me put this in hypothetical. If it was her mistake, it would be very upset. And if it was my mistake, of course, I would be upset, but like there's no consequence. And like the consequence that she faces is that I get very upset. Are you compassionate? No. All right. Are you demanding?

Yes. Are you generous? Yes. Are you scarcity oriented? Yes. Are you scarcity oriented? Yes. Are you abundant oriented? I am trying to, but no. Notice the contradictions.

He has high standards for others, but not necessarily for himself. They have plenty of money, but Charlie says we can't afford it. And on and on. And it would be natural for anyone listening or watching this to start judging Charlie. Oh my God, why does he do that? That's so dumb. I would encourage you to hold that thought because we all have contradictions with our money. You have contradictions in the way you think about money. I have contradictions. We all do. Some of us are content to ignore these contradictions. A lot of us don't even realize we have them.

What I'm most interested in is how Charlie's contradictions are affecting Sarah. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now, you heard Sarah and Charlie mention that they have been in therapy for years, and they came to me for one topic that they had not been able to discuss, which was finances. I love the idea of getting help. I have seen a therapist, my wife and I, when we were having tough discussions about money,

and just having a third party in the room allows you to talk about things differently than you've ever done. It allows you to disrupt some of the dynamics that often become entrenched. So I'm proud of Sarah and Charlie for seeking out therapy, and that is something that I want to encourage for a lot of us. But here's my question for you. If you decided you needed a little help, would you know where to go today to find a great therapist? No, for most of us the answer is no.

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A top money dial is health and wellness. Now I get it. I spend a lot on certain areas of my life. For me, I love hotels that falls under luxury. I love convenience that falls under having my food delivered, etc. And I also love the ability to spend on health and wellness, like a personal trainer or selecting where I stay by how close the gym is. Health and wellness is a top money dial for most of my audience.

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apply for the Nest card and get approved using the linkeswell.com slash remit. That's n-e-s-s-w-e-l-l.com slash r-a-m-i-t. Offer and benefit terms apply. This is not the first time that I've come to him with an idea that's been hit with the hard no, and then we fight about it. And what I would love is if he then thought about it, thought more about interrogating that response or trying new methods of like, okay, the next time you bring an idea to me, I'm going to take five seconds to center myself. But if we were to happen, it will probably happen

exactly the same. Because it's like, I'm feeling well, I've got feels a lot. I don't always act on them. Don't you? Sure. What's a gut feel you have that you don't act on? Saying embed and not go to work. That's a great example. Okay, we share that sometimes. Great. So you get up. Why do you get up when you don't feel like getting up? Well, there's my responsibility, a commitment that I want to honor.

Yeah, anything else? Well, it's also jobs like it pays, so that's a nice reward. Well, you get paid and if you didn't go in and you kept sleeping in bed for like two weeks straight, what would happen? Well, I'll probably get fired. Yeah. All right, so you have a responsibility, you have a commitment, you have an incentive, which is money, and you also have consequences of getting fired. Okay, do you have any responsibility to Sarah in conversations like this? Yes, I do.

What is that responsibility? Well, to engage without ripping my gut feeling, you know, to try and check myself. Do you believe that is that something like you kind of should have or is that something you deep down believe you have? I think it's in order for to have a functioning relationship. I need to have do you have it? I'm sure I don't Do you have a commitment of any kind with Sarah that you've talked about for these conversations? Well, now we're trying to have more structure conversations, but I don't think before that, like no, not necessarily.

Okay. Do you have an incentive, like you get paid at work? Do you have an incentive in these conversations with Sarah? Right. Well the incentives that We're both happy Yes, and how about the consequence? Do you have any consequences for conversations like this? Well, yes, the consequence of not having them We're avoiding them until them until we have to have a conversation like this, is typically it's up in a fight or an argument and always say,

I don't like that. And then what? Is that the only consequence? So far, yes. Okay. You know what? So far, yes, but there's going to be a point where that's not the only consequence. And obviously, I don't want to reach that point.

Okay. That point would be what? Always playing up. Okay. Or distancing. Playing up, etc. Okay. Got it.

Taking it further down. More serious. Right. That means I don't want to play everything on Charlie. Okay, got it. Taking it further down. More serious. Right. I mean, I don't want to play everything on Charlie. He's really stuck in a lot of ways and really stuck playing the same loops in his head and stuck with a lot of the same dynamics

and we just play out the same dynamic over and over again and I try really hard to step out of it. We've been in Couples Council for a couple of years like we've talked about separating. I would say like, we just passed our five year anniversary out of it. We've been in couples counseling for a couple years. Like we've talked about separating. I would say like, we've been, we just passed our five-year anniversary and I would say three and a half of those have been really rocky. And so it affects our relationship by making me question whether it's the right one. Charlie's a good example that you can be aware of a problem, but awareness is not enough to change it. This happens a lot with cheap people.

They will come to me asking for help, they will complain, I wish I could spend more money, how can I do it? But ultimately, they rarely change because deep down, they don't actually think they have a problem. In fact, for a lot of people, they think it's a virtue and there are no real consequences for their behavior. Culturally, what are the differences in the way both of you see money? Let's start with Sarah. I mean, I think there's like culture, culture and family culture. I mean, from the US and Charlize from Mexico,

because we grew up in radically different economies, I would say that there's like some things around just like not trusting the economy in Mexico that's that you know that's really different. And then I would say like family culture is really huge. My mom came from like not a crazy wealthy family, but she came from some wealth and hold on how much wealth. Her great grandfather has a picture in this Smithsonian. Well, what does that mean though? They had a large custom house with a door of sure of Chicago. My grandparents. Sounds like a lot of money. They weren't, like, they were multi-millionaires, but this wasn't, we're not, like, yeah, they were multi millionaires, but they were this wasn't we're not like yeah, they were multi millionaires.

We're not talking Jeff pesos. Just multi millionaires. Okay. All right. Got it. And then I asked and I would say like, but when I was growing up money, my mom is really bad with money. Money was really insecure.

She was involved in a really long term lawsuit that she ended up winning and we got over a million dollars from that was gone within five years basically. What she's spending on. We bought a house in the Bay Area and she like. What's the problem though? House has always go up. Everybody always makes money. Hopefully Lincoln vets three up to our fight. I'm going to show down. But she also like played the stock market and she thought that she and she just just, she wasn't, she's someone who's like afraid, she literally doesn't open envelopes when they come to the house. Okay, I get it. And my dad had like a decent amount of money,

they got divorced when I was six months old. Okay. Yeah. What did you take away from your childhood with money? I think I took away like two things that one I really didn't want to be like my mom. Meaning what? Meaning that I wanted to have stability and security and like know that what was happening the next year and the next like I didn't want to drive around gas station to gas station for like a three-cent savings.

So number one was you didn't want to be like your mom you wanted safety what was number two? So number one was you didn't want to be like your mom you wanted safety. What was number two? Number two was that I believed I had a fallback like I yeah, that I could count on other people. I was very close with my father's father. I always had backup and so like when I went to college and there wasn't enough money, my grandpa cut me a check for the rest of it And I was gifted small amounts of stocks as a kid, growing up. I got us like a very small,

I mean, a $30,000 trust fund when they turned 30. Like I knew that was coming. I wasn't worried about, I wasn't worried. I didn't have like deep worry about money. What'd you do with the 30K? Oh, it's in an index fund. Wow.

Okay. What age did you invest that? The day after my 30th birthday. No kidding. So you knew the money was coming on this particular day and you were ready to go and you dropped it into an index fund. Yeah. What was your thinking there? Even though I don't have a good relationship with my father, he is very good with money and I have relied on him for that. And so he helped me set up a Roth IRA and maybe a year before that or something. And like he said, if I came up with $1,000, she'd give me $1,000 to put in it. And so I already had my Vanguard account.

And I have a brother who's one year older than me and he had already done the thing and looked at like, you know, the target retirement funds and the VTI and whatever in he kind of was like, oh, this is what I did. Like, let's look at this together. So I knew that was what I was supposed to do. Cool. That's great. Good family upbringing, at least in terms of family culture educating you around investments, even knowing that investments are real, that it's possible for somebody like you to invest. That's quite savvy. All right, great work. Charlie, I'm curious about you. What do you remember about growing up with money? I remember we always had enough, but never to splurge. My dad's a physician, an adopter, a GP.

And for many years, my dad was a soul-in-comeriner and then my mom went back to work. And then they started a business together but like she primarily does the work on it. Then she became the highest earnable in the home. So did you change the dynamic? Oh, yeah, absolutely. My dad obviously presented that.

But it did help me and my brothers have two brothers who went through private school and private college. Yeah, I mean, the resentment is really clear and it's really sad. But the, I mean, physicians in Mexico and you don't have a specialty, it's really not. It's not like it isn't the US or other countries

where that really solidly puts you in middle class. He's in very, very old because he doesn't eat because I have patients, he doesn't have patience, he doesn't have money. Oh, it's a more of a modest income. Yeah. Yeah, like more middle class. Yes. That's a good clarification. From my perspective, Charlie grew up sort of lower middle class than his mom's ambition and her success really like she fought for them to move into the middle class and for them to have things. When you say that obviously your dad resented your mom becoming the higher earner, did he say anything that you remember?

How do you know he obviously resented it? He never explicitly said that, but he also had the expectation that my mom would fill the homemaker while also working full time for the business, which obviously is unrealistic. So that was things like, you know, why isn't dinner ready or something like that? Yeah. Okay, anything else? Well, for four stars, we live in an apartment.

It seemed like everybody lived in a house. Some kids in high school had cars, we didn't. Like I didn't have a car until the second year of college. Things like that, like where they went on vacation, what kind of clothes they were like. Where did they go on vacation if they were, let's say, wealthier? I don't know, to skiing in Colorado or like to Europe, stuff like that. How about you, Ben? We, usually when, within the country. And the business started to take off,

give me a sense of what we're talking about here. What changed when your mom started to become a higher earner? What's the scale we're talking about here? And went up by like 10% or 200%. No, no, probably something between 100 to 200%. Okay, I got it. What do you remember changing in your family as your mom's income started to dramatically grow?

I think something positive, which is I discovered that my mom was ambitious and driven and successful. And honestly, I think the ambition that I have was like, started by looking at what she did and how successful she was. That's kind of cool. To see your mom in one light, and she sounds like she was a great mom, and then a little bit later in life, to see this totally different

chapter of her emerge and she's really good at it. What do you think you took away from the lessons that your parents taught you about money from being a young kid to a teenager? Well, I, I, the few explicit conversations that I remember having about money with my dad is current cards are meant to be used. Like like you spend something and then you get to have the same amount of money and you pay it right off Like you never carry any debt and do this a I live like that. Okay So I think that's certainly positive and getting some what see a good dad I think he tried I keep trying hard Let's see, a good dad. I think he tried hard.

He's a human, he's flawed, like everybody. But I think as a child at least, I don't have future assignments. That's an interesting answer. Well, it's because later on I don't. Oh, is that right? Yeah. What is it?

A part of that is that, like that he saw that part of my mom too, and instead of like accepting and celebrating it, he got resentful. What, why obviously at the time also benefit from like, you know, I mean, I already. Um, makes it a little more confusing, right? It absolutely does. He's benefiting from it, but resenting it. That's unfair.

That's unrealistic. Like he wanted to have his cake and needed to. Okay, and so what happened? They're still together. They still bicker about money every day. What? I've only been married for. Oh, Jesus, too long. bigger about money every day. What? What? I might have been married for.

Oh, Jesus, too long. Like a long time, right? 40 years, yes. Oh, it's not been a 40-smooth years. Yeah, I mean, it's a Catholic country. There's a lot of guilt around that. Oh, you don't say. Okay.

Yeah. All right. So they bicker about money. If you were to sit down with them and have lunch with them, how many minutes until they would bicker about money in front of you? I've yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Got it. And at this point, is it almost like they thrive off of it? It's like a sitcom. I think it's like without the left track.

Without the left track. Without the left track. Wow. We literally say it's like George Coutan's parents. Like I don't know if you're different. I know exactly what you're referring to. Okay. They're like, yeah. Sorry, this one, like what I say this, but like some family members have told me, your

parents have everything to be happy and they just choose not to be. Which is obviously a simplification. Do you believe that? Yes. Partially. Sarah, why don't you like when he says that? No, no, I mean, I could think of like a million examples of them. I, Bikering is a very polite way to put it, because I didn't grow up with like two adults in the household that was like a real, it was a real shock to me to see. You You know as someone who like saw the beauty of divorce I

Believe that your parents could be a lot happier if they I mean I think that they're they're in the wrong relationship for their desires So it doesn't it doesn't like bother me. I just don't think like money in economic success is like the, that's, that helps, but it's not, they, I don't, I don't think they have everything it takes to be happy because they don't have respect for each other. Imagine the effect that Charlie's childhood had on him. He grew up well aware that the people around him made more money than his family. Then his mom started to make more than his dad, which led to resentment. And now, they have been fighting for decades.

Charlie sees money totally negatively. It's filled with guilt and overwhelm and resentment and envy. I wonder if he's made the connection between his upbringing and how he treats money today. Let's find out. Recently on the show, you heard me speak to Jennifer and Andrew. They were struggling to pay off their credit card debt, and they had a bunch of subscriptions that they didn't even know about. Look, if you love having all these subscriptions and you can afford it, I'm all for it. But a lot of times when people actually see all the subscriptions they've signed up for

months or years ago, they realize they need to make a change because they can redirect where that money is going much more towards their rich life. If you are wondering where all your money is going, I want you to check out this episode's sponsor, Rocket Money. Rocket Money, formerly known as True Bill, is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills all in one place. Rocket Money will find the subscriptions you don't want,

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You have nothing to lose. This deal is only available through my link. Let me give it to you again. Drink L-M-N-T dot com slash R-A-M-I-T. That's drink L-M-N-T dot com slash Rameet. So now turning to both of you, both of you, the products of the families and the environments and the cultures that you grew up in, you meet, you live now in Mexico and you both are high earners. In fact, you're high earners by US standards. According to the phrase I just heard a couple of minutes ago,

you have every reason to be happy. And you appear to be very happy together, but there's this conflict about money. Charlie, what would you say in a sentence or two about what you believe the central conflict is here? I think a lot of it is the difference in vision. I have work hard to have or to arrive at where we are. And I feel content. And my God feeling is to just like stay here

and like be very protective. She's more ambitious than you and that makes you feel what? Maybe insecure or more than more than ambitious, I would say that she's much more confident. Okay. This is not a bad thing, but I'm not okay, okay, hold on. Before you go off in this whole thing, does this strike you as having any similarities with any couples we've talked about about 90 seconds ago? Yes. Who? My parents. Make the connection for me. Yeah, well, she has a vision for something grander. And did

your mom have that? Yes. Okay. And when she put it into place, what was your dad's reaction? It was it wasn't necessarily welcoming. What was it? resentful. Have you ever made that connection before? Have you ever made that connection before? None necessarily, no. Okay. Hearing that, thinking about it for the first time, what does your gut, which is so expressive, what is it telling you right now? It makes me feel very comfortable because I obviously have very harsh feelings

about how my dad acted. Okay. Do you want to be like your dad? No. Sarah, did you ever see this connection before? Oh my God. Yes. She was awaiting with a repeat. Please ask me.

She was like ready to go. I was really that was my best I could do to hold my time. Yeah, I actually I would say not infrequently say to Charlie that I feel like he's I mean, I feel like I've said this in the last two weeks and I feel like you're reenacting the play of your parents marriage. But it seemed like when I said it to him, he was completely caught off guard. I don't know that he always listens to me. I mean, I know he doesn't always listen to me.

The way I'm envisioning it in my head is mom or Sarah pulling a head, like pulling a sled ahead and dad, or in this case, Charlie trying to resist. I don't want to be pulled along and resisting in very interesting and peculiar ways. It could be resentment. It could be getting jealous. It could simply be saying, we can't afford that. But it might come out in so many peculiar ways. How does this metaphor strike you, Charlie? I see it, especially in the latest, in the last I see it, especially in the latest, in the last comment, just coming from a car city at viewpoint. I've seen we shouldn't do this, or there's always a money, or it's not be wasteful.

Sarah, how does this metaphor strike you? I love it. I think it's absolutely accurate. Because it's all areas, it's money is one of them, but it's all like, I think it's absolutely accurate. And I think it's, because it's like, it's all areas, it's money is one of them, but it's like, all the things I wanna do with money. And it's like, yeah, he's there slamming, like slamming his feet into the snow, saying no.

And I'm like, but look at all this beautiful white snow ahead of us. Look at how fortunate we are. Let's take with that. Let's take with that for a second. Look at all this beautiful white snow. So you're out a little bit ahead of him and you can see this beautiful white powder and to you, what does the snow feel like? Oh, it feels like freedom. Two people talking about the same object, but experiencing it completely differently. And their responses are shaped by their experiences in childhood,

their views of money, even their feelings in general. Can you think of something that you and your partner have seen but experienced completely differently? I wonder if that would be an interesting topic for you to discuss tonight. All right, let's talk about the day-to-day. All right, let's talk about the day to day. So what is one area besides this beach house that you both seem to look at differently when it comes to money? Food, housing expense. We end up being very on the same page

with how we want to spend our money. It just kind of takes a lot of fighting to get there. And it takes a lot of weird negotiation, even though I feel like we kind of want the same things. I think that I would say is like I know, I don't think either of us are like into budgets, but like because everything adds up, whenever we do an actual like some of like the expense that we have, it feels like whole shit, we're spending a lot. You think you're spending a lot right now? You know, I've looked at your spending, right? Right, like, your fixed costs are like in the 30s.

I'm like, what are you talking about, dude? What, look at, he's not even answering my question. He looks away. Charlie, what the hell are you talking about? Your fixed costs are 34%. I'll pull it up right now. Uh-huh, I mean, I haven't right here, too. I'm just, 34% is that a lot?

I'm not used to spending more like. Like, are you used to making as much as you make? Mmm. So it's my income that's new. I was unemployed right up. Wow, that's so surprising. Her income went up and there was an inability to adjust. Have I heard this story before?

Anybody? Anybody? As a reminder, they live in Mexico City. Let me run through the numbers with you. Sarah's income is 11,500 per month gross. Charlie's income is 12,000 monthly gross, plus he gets a bonus. Their total annual income, $282,000 plus a bonus.

Their assets are $46,000. Their investments are $295,000 and they invest 31% of take home. Their savings are $43,000. They have zero debt. Their net worth is $384,000 and their fixed costs, as we mentioned, are 34%. So, you've got more money than virtually anyone makes in Mexico. You two make a very high income. Do you acknowledge that, Charlie, that you make a lot of money? I do. That didn't sound like yes. That was like, hold on, let me try to replay that. Do you acknowledge that you make more than roughly 99% of people in your country? I do, but, and then you jump to right to the butt. Just give me the butt, because I know you don't believe that you do. Go ahead, tell me why you don't really make that much money No, I used to this. I know that we are

Very like extremely well off statistically. Okay. Go on. Tell me now tell me the thing that actually matters But my problem is that I don't look at the 99% I look at the rest of the 1% oh wow Okay, and and what does that do to you? Like Okay, and what does that do to you? Like Makes me feel frustrated because if you feel like okay, we're so far like we're doing so well and yet We're just so far away from like you know the this guy's a limit not I don't want to be Jeff Bezos, but you know Finish the sentence. But I would like to have more.

I have a question. How much is enough? How much is enough to save? Charlie, that's the point like, it's completely irrational. But like, I don't have a number. What do you have? I can, the answer is as like, I don't have a number. What do you have? The answer is as much as I can.

Well, why don't you just go back and live with your family and save even more? Why do you guys live? Oh, Sarah, what does that look on your face? He lived with his family until he was 27. That's a cultural difference. Okay, cultural doesn't count, Sarah. Don't try to throw that in here.

No, that is, that was, that's, come on. Come on, give me some American, cultural doesn't count Sarah. Don't try to throw that in here. No, that is that was that's come on come on Give me some American. I don't know. Well, hold on in India, you know people live with their parents for a long time What's the deal over there in Mexico Charlie? Is that common there is the same? Yeah, all right. I'm not gonna count this cultural thing That was a nice try Sarah. Okay, nice try Charlie. I mean, you want to save more? Because saving is, what would be the end of that sentence? Saving money is? I don't mean it's your choice, it's good. There's also like a lower limit because I also want to enjoy my life.

I don't, I don't just want to work and save 100%. Tell me about that. What gives you enjoyment as it relates to money. It quite frankly, not having to look at the price of things. Like, when we go out to dinner, because it feels like freedom, because I was never really casual enough. Okay, you and me the same. I also love that. I love going out to a restaurant. I don't even look at the price of the menu. I go, that looks good and that looks good.

Bring them both. It feels amazing still to this day. Okay, so you got that feeling. All right, I share that. Sarah, you share that feeling too? Oh yeah, absolutely. I would say travel is a big one. Even though we do look at the price more

like when we're just planning trips, like it doesn't, we don't, we planned our entire honeymoon around a three Michelin star restaurant so it doesn't mean whoa which way which one? Osteria Francesca. Where's that? It's in Modena, Italy. Oh my god how cool and how was the experience? It's amazing. 50 out of 10. Look at that. It was visible. The reaction when I asked that question. That was cool. So would you say you're both foodies? Yeah.

Yes. When you two are thinking about food, a restaurant, how does money play into that? Like, it plays out positively because we have exactly what you described. We just go and we have the whatever, the duck or the... We don't thankfully desire this and drink or not a lot. She always says she's too late. Thankfully why?

Thankfully because if she did drink what? Things will be more expensive. And here, it might be easily double the size of the bill. Double, and how much is a bill for the two of you when you go out to a restaurant? Give it to me in, like, US dollars. Like, like, a hundred and 120. Okay, that's a lot, right?

That's not on the high end. We, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Prequins are for, like, under $50. Okay, $50 to $100 bucks. And just so out of curiosity, you know, if she were to drink and you guys were to get the bottle or whatever, it would take the check to, let's say, $220.

Let's just say, what would that do to your finances? Nothing really. Really? Nothing at all, right? Like, do you make that much in interest? So I'm curious about that word, thankfully. Can you metaphorize that for me, Charlie? What were you just doing right there when you said that? Oh, look at me.

You notice how it comes out in peculiar ways? Right. Mm-hmm. Right. It's interesting. Don't think you can hide the way you feel about money. Notice how it comes out in peculiar ways? Right. Mm-hmm. Right. It's interesting. Don't think you can hide the way you feel about money. The way you feel about money is going to leak out in hundreds of subtle ways from a subtle

hand gesture to an eye roll, to an unfortunate word choice, and living with your family who observes everything you say and do for decades. They're going to know exactly who you are and how you feel about money. You can't hide it. Charlie is fearful and anxious and worried about money. And this leaked out in the most unexpected of places when he said that thankfully his wife doesn't order drinks when they go out. Why? She's a cheap date. Thankfully she doesn't order drinks when they go out. Why?

She's a cheap date. Thankfully she doesn't order drinks. This is a couple who makes about $300,000 a year living in Mexico City. The solution here is not to ignore your feelings. It is to confront them and to work on your emotions and your money psychology directly. If you feel guilty about spending money, I put together a free guide you can use to start feeling better about money

and to stop feeling so guilty spending your money. You can get it at iwt.com slash guilty and I'll link the guide in the show notes. Let me see if I can interpret this correctly, Charlie. Tell me if I'm getting this right. So it's, we need to save more because saving is virtuous and saving is good. If we were to go on that vacation, that would be wasteful. And if we, things add up, and if we were to keep wasting money, we might end up with

zero. And that would be tragic. Am I getting that right so far? Well, I think your characterizing well, how what I said, but now that you say it, you see that he doesn't make sense. Why not? Because it's not too extreme. Like you can do both, you can say ban, also spam.

Hmm, okay. Remember Charlie what your family says? Your parents have everything they should be happy for and they choose to be unhappy. That's kind of ringing in my ears. Yeah, I think when I said that, the sort of the sound like when I say that, it's because I have said that about us too. One of the things I hear Charlie is a lot of feelings.

I like hearing you express that these are feelings. I also hear a lot of the word gut, my gut. You trust your gut? Yes. Why? Because it has helped me along with other things to get to where we are at. Are you more intuitive or are you more quantitative when it comes to making decisions? Definitely more intuitive, I would say.

Has your gut ever led you astray? Yes, like what? Um, taking care of myself. I was sick, uh, 29, I got diagnosed with cancer. And I don't know if he was a gut thing, but like I just, I, like, I have no idea how to have a, like, um, because my parents were, or our physicians, like, I never really have like proper care until it was extremely needed. And all of that was like, learning experience had the worst possible time. What's the takeaway from that? I'm trying to understand.

It's take away, like, this is not a cutilling. I don't know why I'm like necessarily lumping them together But like they impulse to not take care of myself to prioritize sort of things like working or like whatever else over health is not a good impulse One-sex era right now are there areas of your personal health that you think you should be doing better at? Absolutely. Okay. Like what? I have, well, I have known for many years that I have had sleep apnea, but only last week,

I got around getting this tiny dump in order to get whatever care, whatever machine or treatment, whatever it is. Why, why, no, why, why last week? I mean, it felt like it was the the lowest hanging fruit and the one that could have the easiest impact, positive impact in my life, but why last week after five plus years did you decide to do it? Honestly, because I was like it's a very straightforward answer, I, as I understood, you have to go to a hospital or a clinic and spend

the night there. And I didn't want to because I have PTSD from saying in the hospital for being sick. And but thankfully, I found a place where they actually give you advice and you can do it at home. So like, but because I never took that first step of actually asking, like, I have so many questions right now. The cancer. How are you now? I am okay. I like I mean, remission. I'm not in treatment. There's nothing that it affects my day today. Life fantastic. Okay, I'm glad to hear that. And the apnea, it sounds like you got studied. Okay, I'm glad to hear that. And the apnea, it sounds like you got studied.

Hopefully they'll give you something to help. Mm-hmm. Okay, great. How does it feel having gone for the night, got the apnea study, how does that feel? It feels like a weight off my shoulders. Nice, nice. Did you think about money when it came to the apnea treatment?

Nice. Did you think about money when it came to the apnea treatment? Not recently, but I do know that the machines can be expensive, but honestly, I I don't care what the price is, but I'm willing to pay for it. Wow. So you don't care what it is You'll pay anything Okay, so can we go back to this beach Conversation because I'm totally fascinated with it. Mm-hmm. Charlie, after everything we've talked about just now, I want you to zoom out.

I want you to take the old Charlie, whose first gut reaction to Sarah was to say what? We can afford it. Like, have your hair expression like killing a fly with a cannon instead of a, I heard a fly sweater. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, like it's overkill.

It's overkill. Question, if your apnea doctor told you, you need to spend, I don't know, $4,000 on some specialty treatment, would you kill a fly or use the cannonball nuclear, whatever? I mean, yeah, in that case, he wouldn't be because that's what I need.

That's what you need. But you don't need it. I mean, you've been doing without it for so many years. You're still alive. Right. Charlie just said it took him five years to get his sleep apnea taken care of because he hates hospitals.

Now I understand he's had bad experiences with hospitals. For someone making $300,000 a year, this problem can be solved with one phone call. The doctor could come to their house, hell the doctor could come to their beach house while they're on vacation. This is a problem money can solve. But Charlie would have never discovered this. He would have never even thought of it because his restrictive view on money is paralyzed and terrified of living a worse life by spending too much money, ironically, while holding

onto that money and actually living an increasingly worse life with sleep apnea. This is one of the reasons that in my own personal 10 money rules, I say unlimited spending on health. Now, you don't have to have that rule, but I want you to realize that your rich life matters. It's not a joke. It's something to be taken seriously and it can mean the difference

between living and dying. What do you think might be a good way to respond to Sarah, who comes to this? Oh my god, I had such an amazing experience with this beach house. We got to do that. What would you say? I love that you had a good time. Let's look into options for us. Okay, that's definitely better than what you said. I'll give you a round of applause for that one. That feels, look at that smile on Sarah's face, even Charlie. Okay, okay, what did you just do there, Charlie? When you said that?

Well, not starting with no. What I might do just to add a slight wrinkle to what you said is, I might meet her excitement with a similar level of excitement. So she goes, oh my God, I just had an amazing time with my friends. We got to stay at a beach house like that. You go, wow, that sounds amazing. What was, like tell me about it, do you have pictures?

Do you think you could meet her at that level? Yes. Awesome. It's not even about saying, let's open up Airbnb and start looking. It's not even about that. It's just like, oh my god. It sounds so good. I didn't even know you liked a beach. And how do you think she would react? Possibly, I mean, better. I wish you were active. I would have loved it. I mean, I would have

I would have become even more excited. They would have felt like we were like having fun in that moment. Like that the fun was continuing of my trip into that sharing that experience with you. Now, what I'm not saying is that I want you guys to go out and buy a private jet and only fly. I'm not saying that at all. In fact to go out and buy a private jet and only fly. I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I don't even think that's in the realm of possibility, both financially but even emotionally. Charlie's not about to drop, you know, 75 G's to take a one-way trip.

It's not going to happen. Do you think I've ever had it? I do think that you're playing small. You're playing small and it's actually a tragedy. It's a tragedy for several reasons. One, it's impacting your health. Okay, that's obvious and that is the most important. Two, it's perpetuating a relationship

that you yourself have said you don't wanna do. And three, it's causing serious issues in this relationship. You know the craziest thing of all? You actually have the money. Look, you have more than enough money. So clearly, we all know that this is not simply a spreadsheet issue. Have you two ever talked about what your joint rich life vision is? Yes. Okay, what is it? We, when we joke a lot about when we retire having a goat farm in Portugal.

Oh, that sounds cool. Yeah, I mean, I would never bend a Portugal. Oh, no, we have raised animals. It's just so good. never been to Portugal. Oh, no, that we have raised animals. I just went from sounding awesome to sounding like hell. All right, you guys are just right. No, no, we'll hire someone to take care of it. Yeah, no, I just, I think we've talked about, you know, I'm an immigrant to Mexico and I, I have lived in other, I've lived in other places more temporarily, but in Mexico for 10 years now. And I love the idea of living in Rome for a year or living somewhere else for years. We've talked about that. So I like the idea of hiring the personal assistant and hiring a cook so we can get more out

of our day to day lives. Like I feel like that's something that'll be great for both of us. We've talked about like being more intentional about travel and like me twisting Charlie's arm so he uses all his vacation days and I think that's a big part of our rich life. Why is it a convincing thing? Is that a normal pattern? Yes. Oh, that's 100. It's always the pattern is me.

You go to him. You say, I want to do this. He goes, no, that sounds like too much. And then I convince him. And then we go and do it. And he tells me it's like the most amazing thing he's ever done before. And then we repeat the pattern the next time.

Is this cut stands alike pattern serving you? No. I wonder where you learn this from. Yeah. We can keep this dynamic up. Sarah can keep coming to you, proposing beach houses and flights and restaurants or whatever. And you can keep saying no and then you end up doing it or not. What happens if you keep this up?

I mean, there's a lot of... Like, I call it emotional erosion, like a lot of stress and bickering and fighting but like arguing on things that we don't actually need to argue about. And also, probably less enjoyment overall. Yeah, I think so. I mean, with the amount of how hard you two have worked, the physical things that you've gone through, immigration is not easy, culturally, you know, ingratiating. There's a lot of stuff that you two have gone through.

Therapy, which you continue, and I think is amazing. That's awesome. To me, I ask myself, what do I get? What do I get from working hard, from cross-cultural, all this stuff? What do I get? And if it's not amazing, then what am I doing? Okay.

Are you scared of running out of money, Charlie? No. No? All right. Sarah? No. No? All right. Sarah? No. No, I know you're not afraid. Are you, do you feel confident that Charlie means it?

Yeah, I do. I do feel confident that he means that. I think for me, what I would love to hear, you know, I think in our relationship, a lot of the problems are. Tell him. Charlie, I think, and I said, you've had a lot of the problems or... Tell him. Charlie, I think I said you've had a lot of the problems. I think are kind of beautifully captured by the sledding analogy.

Not just around money, but the sticking the feet and the ground and wanting to be persuaded. All right. So sometimes if you fall into the normal pattern that you've developed over time, which is what can go wrong, we're going to run out of money, that's too much, that's wasteful. What will the two of you do about that? I would say to myself, don't let that take over as to what will be the answer because that is not based on many rational or even desire. Like, I want to meet Tara.

Not at a midpoint. I want to be where Sarah is and say, and channel and say, like, kind of excitement. And, and I'll feel great. Is it possible to change? My thing, so. If anything, oh my God, we've built the financial side of our household to be so conservative that already we are investing 31%,

which is way higher than almost any couple I speak to. Okay, know that your fixed costs are lower than almost any couple I've spoken to. You haven't even included a potential $70,000 bonus, amazing. You two make $300,000 a year living in Mexico City and you've already saved up hundreds of thousands of dollars in your 30s and you're going to keep saving. So you've built margin of safety upon margin of

safety. My spirit suggestion for you is that you go ahead and start living your rich life today and tomorrow. What a tragedy to wait for the Portugal goat farm, you know, go there now, go visit, have a good time. You two have a very varied and rich life. You love food, you love travel, you love family. Let's go ahead and prioritize that right now. That's the way I see it. Yeah.

Yeah. In other words, if I ever hear you arguing about a $500 expense, I'm going to come over there and cause some real trouble. What do you all think about that? You're right. Come on down. We'll take you out of Taco tour. I spent extra time with Sarah and Charlie and we got into the very specific details of

their rich life. We talked about what they love. Food, pedicures, massage, convenience their rich life. We talked about what they love, food, pedicures, massage, convenience in their life. We added all of these things. We set up a regular schedule for when they would get them and they still had over $1,000 a month of guilt-free spending. This is how you go from defense to offense with your money. And now I want to share the follow-ups that they both sent me. Let's start with Sarah. Sarah said, I was surprised by how quickly you saw recurring patterns in our relationship that were playing out in our finances. While I have felt that Charlie was

unintentionally re-enacting some of the dynamics between his parents, I didn't understand its role in our finances and financial decision making. Hearing you point, that out was incredibly validating for me and I know it made an lasting impression on him. In our call, I struggled to articulate my vision for a rich life. I had been hyper focused on maximizing

our investments and savings and had been on autopilot with our spending. I loved how you pushed us to make quick decisions about easy ways to spend money on improving our health and quality of life. We spent the weekend talking about how we can implement those decisions ASAP. When we revisited our CSP a few days later,

we still hit a few bumps in the road. And at times I felt like I was pulling Charlie along, but I was able to articulate that in a new way that felt like it helped us course correct during the conversation. I was thrilled that Charlie suggested we increase our spending in a number of areas, stood by the decisions we made on the call

and never once said we can't afford that. That was a major win. During our call, I was caught off guard by your comment, that Charlie and I often monologue at each other instead of passing the ball back and forth, that immediately resonated as true and a terrible pattern we are both eager to break. As we revisited our CSP, we both made a more conscious effort to ask each other questions and be more collaborative than we had done the first time around. Well done Sarah.

Charlie, he writes, I knew the subject of my parents' relationship around money was going to come up, but I didn't expect to focus on it so much. I suppose it has had a much larger influence on my behavior than I realized before. I was positively surprised by how well Rameeth helped us steer the conversation. I feel like we've had similar conversations in the past with a lot of conflict and not a ton to show for it. For me, the main takeaways were two. First, that my negativity and fearfulness, aka cautiousness, affects my wife and my relationship,

and second, that we can lead a grander and richer life than the one we currently have without making giant changes because we're actually well off and in a comfortable position. And that is something to embrace and celebrate. I realized in hindsight that talking about our personal finances makes me uncomfortable in general. No wonder, as my parents frequently argued about the subject. While that is something I need to keep working on on my own, I realize that avoiding the subject also leads to a negative outcome.

I want to thank Sarah and Charlie, and before you go, I want to remind you that I am going to be answering your questions about this episode on our new weekly newsletter. Use the link in the show notes below so that you can ask your questions anything about this episode and you can sign up for this new newsletter which I will send you the first issue of this Saturday. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Rameie Saiti. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read, I will teach you to be rich.

My book, pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I Will Teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.