Imaginary Worlds - Doctor Who's Power of Regeneration

Episode Date: December 6, 2023

In honor of Doctor Who’s 60th anniversary, I’ve rewritten my 2018 episode about Doctor Who with updates on how the series has evolved, and new insights I’ve had about Doctor Who since I made this episode -- and since The Doctor has become one of my favorite characters. Media critic Emmet Asher-Perrin discusses how the history of The Doctor’s regenerations over 60 years is a story about an alien being who is striving to be better but keeps overshooting the mark. I talk with Emmet’s partner Sylas K. Barrett and comedian Riley Silverman about how The Doctor’s gender transitions have been an apt metaphor for the transgender experience. Also, Nick Randall of the BBC and SNS Online, historian Robin Bunce, and playwright Mac Rogers talk about the show’s significance culturally, and what it means to them as fans. Get two memberships for the price of one at MasterClass.com/Imagine. Go to ShipStation.com and use the code "Imaginary" to sign up for a free 60-day trial. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we create them and why we suspend our disbelief. I'm Eric Malinsky. There used to be a bar in my neighborhood in Brooklyn called The Way Station. From the outside, it looked like a normal bar. But when you went inside, the first thing you saw was a blue police box. Every day I open up the shutters and I see her sitting in the corner and it's just like, I feel at home. That's because the owner of the bar, Andy Heidel, was a huge Doctor Who fan. When I went there, the show was playing on the back wall.

He used to play a lot of episodes from when David Tennant played the Doctor in the mid-2000s. Every fan has their favorite Doctor. David Tennant is Andy's favorite, and he's my favorite too. And nobody can say I'm sorry like Tennant. If I'm dying, I'm on my deathbed, my Make-A-Wish foundation is for him to come and tell me I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I am so, so sorry. And what does a blue police box have to do with Doctor Who? It's actually a ship called the TARDIS. It looks like a police box on the outside, but that's an optical illusion,

meant to disguise the gigantic ship on the inside. In fact, it's a running gag on the show. Every time a new character goes into the TARDIS, they say, But it's huge! It's bigger inside than out! You know it's actually bigger inside than it is on the outside! I know, I know! The TARDIS at the bar was the entrance to a bathroom, which was not as exciting as a spaceship, but it was still an optical illusion.

I'm in the bathroom here. I see a painting of weeping angels. There were paintings of Doctor Who characters on the wall and an autograph from Matt Smith, who played the main character after David Tennant. Matt Smith actually came to the weigh station with a showrunner at the time. They were in town doing publicity for his season finale and the hotel didn't have BBC America. So they went on

Twitter and they're like, is anybody showing it? And everybody tweeted, it's like, go to the way station. And they stayed and watched the season finale with everybody. And I look at the TARDIS, then I look at Matt Smith and I watch Matt Smith watch himself on TV as the doctor walking into the TARDIS. And it was just mind blowing. And then did Matt Smith go to the bathroom? And then he did. It was the circleARDIS. And it was just mind-blowing. And then did Matt Smith go to the bathroom? And then he did. It was the circle of life. If you're having deja vu right now, it's not

your imagination. This episode originally aired in early 2018. But we are now in the midst of a 60th anniversary celebration of Doctor Who. There's a three-part special airing on the BBC and Disney+, with a lot more to come. Now, I've covered a lot of fandoms over the years, but typically after I talk with fans, I move on. Not with Doctor Who. After I did this

episode, I became a full-fledged fan, and the Doctor is now one of my personal favorite characters of all time. And a lot has happened on the show since 2018. So I decided to regenerate this episode, to use a word that's appropriate to Doctor Who, with new information and new insights that I've had in the almost six years since I first wrote this episode. Now, if you've never watched a single episode and you're a little confused, let's look at the big picture. The original run of Doctor Who was on the BBC from 1963 to 1989. In 2005, Doctor Who returned to the BBC, but the modern version of Doctor Who is not a reboot. The events that happened in the original run of the series are canon. They're part of the character's backstory.

The Doctor is an alien. He gave himself that title, The Doctor. And the name of the show, Doctor Who, is a question. Who are you? The Doctor. Doctor who? No, just the Doctor. Actually, sorry, could you just ask me that again? Could I what? Could you just ask me that question again? Doctor who?

Okay, just once more. Doctor who? Oh, yeah. Oh. I never realized how much I enjoy hearing that said out loud. Thank you. Okay. The Doctor comes from a planet called Gallifrey, which is run by Time Lords that look human,

but they have vastly superior intelligence. And among the Time Lords, the Doctor was a rebel. He stole one of the time-traveling spaceships, the TARDIS, so he could explore the universe. And he often has human companions. They can be like stand-ins for the audience, ordinary people going through this extraordinary adventure of traveling with the Doctor. The other thing about Time Lords is that they live multiple lives.

Whenever the Doctor dies saving the Earth, or his body just has too much wear and tear, he can regenerate into a different human body. And thus, a new actor will take on the role. The Doctor remembers everything that happened to him in all of his previous bodies, but every incarnation of the Doctor has his own unique sense of style and humor. In 2017, it was big news that Jodie Whittaker was cast as the Doctor. In 2017, it was big news that Jodie Whittaker was cast as the Doctor. The role had always been played by men.

But the character has gone back to being played by male actors. So I'm going to refer to the Doctor as he for most of the episode. And once again, the show is at a crossroads. This month, Shuti Gatwa will become the 15th Doctor and the first black man to play the role. And I think regeneration is the key to why Doctor Who has been a global icon for more than half a century. I mean, the show itself regenerates with every new actor and every new production team.

But I think that regeneration also works as a powerful metaphor which resonates with fans. No matter where or when we were when we discovered Doctor Who. I was watching a class that Hans Zimmer teaches on Masterclass. He was talking about how he composed music for the scene in The Dark Knight where the Joker plants bombs on different boats. And Hans Zimmer said it was a challenge to compose music for that sequence because the bombs don't go off.

So the music has to build this horrible sense of tension and then dissipate. I have seen The Dark Knight so many times, but suddenly I had a whole new perspective on it. And how much would it cost to take one-on-one classes with a world-renowned composer? Hundreds or thousands of dollars? With a master class annual membership, it's $10 a month.

Memberships start at $120 a year for unlimited access to one-on-one classes with 11 categories and new classes added every month. There are over 180 classes to choose from. You can also watch Neil Gaiman talk about how he wrote the Sandman comics. And Kevin Smith talks about how his style of writing dialogue

was influenced by Stan Lee. This holiday season, give one annual membership and get one free at masterclass.com slash imagine. Right now you can get two memberships for the price of one at masterclass.com slash imagine. Once again, that's masterclass.com slash imagine. Offer terms apply. This episode is full of spoilers.

If you want to do a deep binge before you listen, there are different eras of Doctor Who streaming on Max, BritBox, and Disney Plus in the U.S. Let's begin in 1966. The show actually started in 1963, but let's begin with 66. Doctor Who is a popular black and white children's show. The Doctor is played by William Hartnell. He was in his late 50s, but he looked older. And he played the Doctor like a Victorian schoolmaster, clutching his lapels,

making pronouncements with a twinkle in his eye. You see, there's something over there that might be the solution to all this business. Oh, what's that? A telephone, my dear. But there was a problem. William Hartnell's health was deteriorating. He couldn't keep up with the schedule, and he was flubbing his lines. Did you, did you, did you, did you?

Hmm? Swiping up to another. So the producers made a tough choice or we hope it was a tough choice They decided to fire William Hartnell and bring in a different actor to play the doctor And we can imagine what that moment was like because it was dramatized in a made-for-TV movie that the BBC produced to celebrate the show's 50th anniversary in 2013.

William Hartnell was played by David Bradley, and Brian Cox played Doctor Who's first producer, Sidney Newman, who is Canadian. We've got great plans for Doctor Who, Bill. Believe you me, great plans. I'm, uh... We're 100% committed to it. Very glad to hear it. But we're looking at ways of refreshing it. Regenerating it.

Well, yes. Quite right. Spice things up a bit. Bill. I'm glad we're on the same wavelength anyway. Oh, hell, Bill, there's no easy way of saying this. Um, we want Doctor Who to go on. Yes.

But not with you. Like you said, things have got to change. I see. Nick Randall is a producer at BBC Radio and a big Doctor Who fan. He still can't get over the way they recast the Doctor. a big Doctor Who fan. He still can't get over the way they recast the Doctor. Because if I was a TV producer and my lead actor was forgetting his lines

and he wasn't well and, you know, he was getting on a bit, but the show was proving popular, I would either can the show, think of another science fiction show that would cover similar bases but would be different, or if I was going to recast i would either get somebody who looked as close as as william hartnell did and put the wig on and all the rest of it i mean the thing when we talk about regeneration rejuvenation i would imagine perhaps a younger

version of the same actor so somebody who looked like a young William Hartnell. I wouldn't try to think of getting an actor who looked nothing like him at all, not even pretending to look anything like him, and also to encourage him to play it in such a different way. But that's what happened when Patrick Troughton became the second actor to play the Doctor. I was wondering where that had got to. actor to play the doctor. I was wondering where that had got to. So I think that is so outrageously bonkers, but it's brilliant. It is the doctor. I know it is. I think it's not only his face that's changed. He doesn't even act like him. And thus a pattern emerged. A new actor would be cast as the Doctor. He looked nothing like the previous actor.

He could play the character however he wanted. And then, after several years, when he got tired of the role, he'd move on. In the original series, a regeneration would have the Doctor lying down like he's dying. And then they'd crossfade to the new actor lying in the same position, wearing the same clothes. After he'd wake up, he'd pick a new outfit and check out his new face in the mirror. Here's Tom Baker in his first episode as the fourth Doctor. A new body is like a new house. Takes a little bit of time to settle in. Have to take the rough with the smooth. Mind you, I think the nose is a definite improvement.

In the modern series, the regenerations are more dramatic with special effects, but the routine is the same. That transition can be hard for young fans. Robin Bunce teaches history and culture at the University of Cambridge. When Robin was a kid, he loved Tom Baker's version of the Doctor, with his mop of curly brown hair, his big fedora, and his scarf that went down to his knees. And Robin's father worked at the BBC, so he got behind-the-scenes access. But as I was leaving the set, Tom Baker strode on, and he was in costume. And he looked and sounded every inch

of the doctor. And he asked me my name and he asked me if I wanted a jelly baby. A jelly baby is kind of like a gummy bear. And that's something that Tom Baker would do on the show. He'd offer jelly babies to characters at totally inappropriate moments. Would you like a jelly baby? Would you like a jelly baby? Would you like a jelly baby? Would you like a jelly baby? Shut up! And then Tom Baker left. The next doctor, played by Peter Davison, had feathered blonde hair, and he dressed like a gentleman about to play cricket.

Was that traumatic for Robin? Oh, enormously. Yes, enormously. In fact, I didn't watch the show for two years after that. To this day day i've never forgiven peter davidson for not being tom baker and really the trauma of my life is that as a young man i used to look a bit like peter davidson so when people discovered i was a dr he found they say oh yeah and of course you look like peter davidson which is exactly the wrong thing to say

to me i started to wonder what do all these different versions of the Doctor have in common? There's a famous quote that a lot of actors and writers have referenced as a lodestar for the character. It comes from Terrence Dix, who wrote Doctor Who in the 70s. He said, quote, the Doctor never gives in and never gives up, however overwhelming the odds are against him. never gives in and never gives up, however overwhelming the odds are against him. The Doctor believes in good and fights evil. Though often caught in violent situations, he is a man of peace. He is never cruel or cowardly. The playwright Mac Rogers loves Doctor Who. And when he was a kid, the Doctor was a role model for him because the character didn't rely on weapons. He outsmarted the villains

and he sometimes had compassion for them too. I hadn't realized how much I was hungering for someone who wasn't an action hero, for someone who was more of like a hero through intellect and through joking. And Mack says there's a key question about the doctor which is baked into the format of the show. Is the doctor on a quest to fight evil or not? Are his adventures part of a quest or are they just an epic series of failed attempts to go on holiday? The doctor is fundamentally a troubleshooter. The doctor comes in and averts crises. The Doctor is never there to build the better system that might need to come after the crisis has been averted. Because he can't. That would destroy the concept of the show, is that you're in a different place. Every single episode,

you're in a new world. You're in a new story. The Doctor's relationship with the human race is kind of like a steppparent who really wants to impress us. We're his favorite species. He cheers us on when we're doing well, but he also delivers harsh lectures if he thinks we're not living up to our potential. And Mack thinks this aspect of the Doctor's personality also emerged from the format of the show,

because Doctor Who was originally designed to be a children's program. I think at a certain point, the doctor very often needs to spell out the moral of the story, because where adult critical faculties might tease out that moral from the actions of the story, children don't always necessarily bring that same level of analysis to a story. I think very often in children's books, you see like a literal verbal explaining of the message of the story. So I sometimes think that's an external consideration. And sometimes I think the doctor is just genuinely really arrogant because he spends

almost his entire life around less smart people. He very rarely bumps into someone who shares his intellect. I do think that there is a little bit of a smart guy's power fantasy there. Emmett Asher-Parrott writes for the website Tor. There's the aspect of like, you know, we always talk about the male power fantasy. It's like, you know, big guys like... This is the beta male power fantasy? Right, exactly. It kind of is, especially, I mean, if you're like a

nerdy lady, you've had guys do, I mean, I've had guys come up and try to explain Doctor Who at me, which is hilarious, because I'm like, you're doing, you're just sort of aping your favorite character. You're doing what he does. Emmett wrote an essay where they argued that if you look at the whole arc

of the series, the regenerations aren't random based on which actors were available at the whole arc of the series, the regenerations aren't random based on which actors were available at the time or how the writers or actors chose to interpret the Doctor. Emmett thinks the character has taken on a life of its own. And when Emmett looked at the chronology of all the Doctor's different regenerations, they saw a consistent story about a character who keeps trying to change for the better, but he keeps overcompensating and overshooting the mark. I thought this was fascinating, and I wanted to hear more about it. And since we have a time machine, let's go back to that moment in 1966,

when Patrick Troughton took over the role of the doctor from the first actor to play him, William Hartnell. You sort of get the impression that William Hartnell's doctor was a little fusty and he had very specific ideas of how things needed to be done and maybe he thought, you know, I could stand to be a little bit looser. He changes it up and very interestingly, you get this sort of weird, goofy guy with a haircut that's supposed to be

reminiscent of the Beatles, which is strange. But you get someone with a bigger sense of humor. The doctor was a great collector, wasn't he? But you're the doctor. Oh, I don't look like him. Who are we? Don't you know? But the second doctor is too much of a rebel. He's forced to regenerate as punishment by the Time Lords. The third Doctor is strictly business. Sort of. Maybe you need to be a little bit more of a leader and stop messing around, you know, behind the scenes. Like, actually take some responsibility.

Thing is, Doctor, is there anything I can do? Yes, pass me a silicon, Robbie. Yes, what I meant was, is there anything that Unit can do about this space lightning business? Lightning? I think that what you get from the third to the fourth is a little bit more of a desire to free up again. He wants to be able to interact with people a little bit. He wants the trickiness back. He wants to have his own agenda.

I'm a Time Lord. Oh, I know you're a time lord. You don't understand the implications. I'm not a human being. I walk in eternity. What's that supposed to mean? The fourth Doctor, played by Tom Baker, had great chemistry with his companion, Sarah Jane, played by Elizabeth Sladen. And from that point on, the doctor becomes more invested in his companions. But that leads to deeper questions. Why does this alien, who is practically immortal and infinitely intelligent, want humans traveling with him? Do they keep him grounded? Is he lonely? How close should he get to them?

Emmett says this question came to a crisis with the fifth doctor, played by Peter Davison, who optimistically took on a batch of companions. And then they all left him, usually in traumatizing circumstances. A lot of good people have died today. I think I'm sick of it. You think I wanted it this way? No, no, don't leave. Not like this. I must. I'm sorry.

And so he regenerates in this position of really feeling like he's not a good person to be around. Like he's kind of a really unlucky penny. So he regenerated into the much maligned sixth doctor, played by Colin Baker. And this sixth doctor is incredibly pompous and he seems sort of arrogant. And the doctor's still in there and he's still wonderful. But also, he's very clearly scarred by what happened previously.

Your former self was polite enough. At such a cost, I was on the verge of becoming neurotic. We all have to repress our feelings from time to time. I suggest you get back into the habit. And I would suggest, Perry, that you wait a little before criticizing my new persona. A lot of people didn't warm up to him. The show was put on hiatus. The fans were upset.

And it was brought back with a new actor, Sylvester McCoy. This seventh Doctor had a different approach to his companions. He wasn't their travel buddy. He was more like a professor or a father figure. But it didn't boost the ratings.

And the seventh Doctor, of course, is the one who makes the comment about regeneration. He's like, you never know what you're going to get. It's like the lottery, and I'm so bad at it. You don't understand regeneration, Mel. It's a lottery when I've drawn the short plank. The show stopped production in 1989. There was a made for TV movie in 1996 with a new actor, Paul McGann, but it flopped. Doctor Who finally came back to the BBC in 2005 with Christopher Eccleston as the Doctor, and the show was a hit again. And the showrunner, Russell T. Davies,

gave the Doctor a surprisingly dark backstory. We learn that while the show was off the air, the Time Lords of Gallifrey went to war with their arch nemesis, these evil creatures called the Daleks. To save the universe from being sucked into this all-consuming war, the Doctor ignited a doomsday device, which killed the Daleks and his own people. And then the Ninth Doctor is born out of PTSD. And he is very broken and very wounded and very hurt. And he doesn't know how to handle any of his emotions because he regenerated out of, you know, what he thinks was genocide.

Double genocide. What about your people? I'm a Time Lord. I'm the last of the Time Lords. They're all gone. I'm the last of the Time Lords. They're all gone. I'm the only survivor. The Ninth Doctor is edgier. He wears a leather jacket.

He's got a northern English accent. His new companion is a working-class young woman named Rose, played by Billy Piper. In their second adventure together, he brings her to the far future to show her how the Earth is destroyed. He wants to know if she can really shoulder the burden the way that he's having to shoulder it.

And if she can, then she's probably the perfect companion. And what happens? He takes her out of the TARDIS after showing her all that, and he wants to know how she's going to react, and her first reaction is, I want to eat chips. And that's it. It's perfect. She's exactly what he needs at that point in time.

Right then, before you get me back in that box, chips it is and you can pay. No money. What sort of date are you? Come on then, tightwad, chips are on me. Then the doctor does something very unusual. He falls in love with his companion. But what happens all the time, people keep saying, he's a little bit older for you.

He's a little bit too much. This is not really a good idea. He looks like he's in his 40s and you're 20. And he regenerates into the perfect person for her. No one will ever say he's too old again. They look like a pair. He also apes her accent which i think is precious oh my god i didn't even think about that yeah because i was wondering why

tenant picked that accent yes i was dying to save my own life i changed my body every single cell but still me you can't be then how could this? The very first word I ever said to you. I said one word. Just one word. I said, run. Doctor. Hello. They end up separated for completely fantastical reasons that I won't go into, but the 10th Doctor never really gets over that loss. The 11th Doctor, played by Matt Smith, is quirky and fun, but he tends to repress those darker emotions. He's very restless.

He actually gets married to an equally unavailable time traveler. But his true love is for his companions. He adores this married couple, particularly the character of Amy, played by Karen Gillan. Why do you keep coming back for us? Because you were the first. The first face this face saw. And you'll see it onto my hearts.

He loses them too. Again, for fantastical reasons I won't get into, but the loss feels real. Emmett thinks that's why he regenerates into the grumpy 12th Doctor, played by the Scottish actor Peter Capaldi. And you do get the influence again of the companion Amy imprinted on him,

like, you know, it's like a hen, like a little chicken. And he apes her accent too. They're both Scottish. Once again, of the companion Amy imprinted on him like, you know, it's like a hen, like a little chicken. And he apes her accent, too. They're both Scottish. Oh, my God. I didn't think of that either. Yeah.

This doctor protects humanity while keeping us at arm's length. I'm the doctor. I've lived for over 2000 years. And not all of them were good. I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that. The 12th Doctor eventually comes to peace with himself. He also senses that his mansplaining

or aliensplaining has gotten tiresome. And with that thought, he regenerates into the first female doctor, played by Jodie Whittaker. Although not everybody at MI6 got the memo. Don't be ridiculous, Franklin. I've read the files. The doctor is a man. I've had an upgrade. Hi. The 13th Doctor starts out with a sense of renewal and optimism. She takes on a batch of companions.

She cheers them on like a team captain. But when she discovers that her history with the Time Lords was not what she thought she'd been lied to, she becomes aloof and introspective. Her companions feel frustrated. Towards the end of her run, the Doctor runs into previous companions from the 1980s. Tegan, who is a companion of the ill-fated Fifth Doctor, and Ace, who is a companion look on you, Professor.

How have you been? Like you care. Tegan, we discussed this. 38 years. I'm Yaz. The only one here who doesn't really know what's going on. We used to be you decades back. When it came time for the doctor to regenerate,

for the first time ever, the doctor went backwards. Jodie Whittaker morphed into David Tennant, much to his confusion. What? What? But David Tennant isn't playing the 10th doctor again. He is the 14th doctor, with all of the memories in between. David Tennant only signed on for these special anniversary episodes, where he's tried to understand why he regenerated

backwards, and he's been discovering how much he's changed on the inside since the last time he wore this face. Because I've got this friend called Donna Noble, and she was my best friend in the whole wide universe. I absolutely love her. Oh, why say things like that now? At the co-working space where I do most of my writing, the owners are big fans of Futurama. There are posters and other things around to make you feel like you're working at

Planet Express, the intergalactic shipping company which sends the characters to far-flung planets. And as much as I like Futurama, I'd rather use 21st century technology like ShipStation. Shipping doesn't have to be expensive, time-consuming, or involve the fate of the earth. With just a few clicks on ShipStation, you can manage orders, print labels, compare rates, and automate delivery notifications. I know that a lot of my listeners are independent creators or they own small businesses. ShipStation easily integrates with major sites that sell online, including Amazon, Etsy, eBay, Shopify, and more. They also partner with major carriers. You can get instant savings of up to 89% from UPS, DHL Express, USPS, and much more. Let your customers shop risk-free this holiday with

ShipStation. Go to ShipStation.com and use the code IMAGINARY today to sign up for your free 60-day trial. That's ShipStation.com, code IMAGINARY. There was an interesting moment in one of the recent specials where a trans character refers to the Doctor, played by David Tennant, as a male presenting Time Lord. The symbolism of the Doctor's gender changes has not been lost on Riley Silverman. She is a stand-up comedian in Los Angeles.

And when she first began her gender transition, she was shy about it. I was kind of on the verge of starting to insist on using female pronouns. At the time, it was kind of like, hey, it'd be cool if you did this. But I was still timid about asking for it as a thing that I demanded to have happen. But she had an epiphany in 2013. She was watching The 11th Doctor, played by Matt Smith, face the final minutes in his body. He was about to regenerate into another male body. But the language that Matt Smith used resonated with Riley.

We all change when you think about it. We are all different people all through our lives. And that's okay that's good you've got to keep moving so long as you remember all the people that you used to be and that line really stuck out to me as this idea of like oh we change as life goes on and like i can transition and it doesn't mean that I wasn't myself before. It just means like I'm putting on this new face that better reflects who I am inside. The next year, the 12th Doctor, played by Peter Capaldi, was having a tough time. And his struggles spoke

to Riley's fears about how her friends would react to her changing. The Doctor's companion, Clara, couldn't accept that this new version of the doctor was the same person that she'd been traveling with. She was on the verge of leaving him. And the doctor says to Clara, like, I'm standing right in front of you and you can't see me. Do you know how hard that is?

Just see me. You can't see me, can you? You look at me and is. Just see me. You can't see me, can you? You look at me and you can't see me. Do you have any idea what that's like? And that line made me sob. It was right to the heart of how I felt. Like, oh, you people look at me and they don't see me. And I still think about that a lot because I'm transitioning,

but it's not perfect and it's not exact. You know, it's a process. And then, of course, the doctor became a female presenting Time Lord. Whoever gets a chance to have their favorite show go through a major life event with you completely separate from you. The show has been an inspiration to other transgender fans as well.

Again, here's Emmett Asher Perrin. I fell in love with my husband who is trans based on our love of watching the show while we were in college. Emmett and Silas were roommates at Sarah Lawrence College back when Silas identified as a woman. Together, they fell in love with Doctor Who, but it took them years to admit that they were in love with each other. Here's Silas. We were one of those people who we were always really annoyed. Everyone's like, you're just dating, right? And all of our friends were just like, why would you hide it? Why are you lying to us? Like, this is the most liberal welcoming school you could possibly be in.

And we're like, no, no, we're just friends. But they were right and we were wrong. Remember, the first big romance of the modern era was between David Tennant's 10th doctor and his companion Rose. Emmett felt a profound identification with Rose, and Silas wanted to emulate the Tenth Doctor, who had pinstripe suits, long swishy coats, and spiked hair. In 2010, Emmett and Silas cosplayed as the 10th Doctor and Rose at Comic-Con. It was the first time that Silas felt comfortable occupying a male identity in public. And his costume was a hit.

And it was all over the internet for a while. And I remember seeing comments on a picture of me. And the comment was, I don't know if this is a guy or a girl, but I'm really into it. And I was just like, hey, yeah, like, yes, like, I can be the doctor, like not as a costume, not as, but as you know, someone who is a man and sort of has a right to the space and to identifying in that manner. And how did his partner react? When I when I just showed her the picture, I was like, isn't this great? And she was like, that is great.

That's kind of something you want, isn't it? And I was like, yeah, I think it is. That conversation can be really hard for some couples. I mean, Emmett would have reacted the same way, whether the two of them had watched Doctor Who or not. But Silas says that Doctor Who gave the couple a language to explore what was going to happen next. She was like, well, you know, it's kind of like regeneration. You know, it's kind of like you were nine and now you're going to become ten.

And I'm going to miss nine, but ten is sort of who you were always supposed to be. And I was like, yeah, and someone I could only be because of you. These questions around love and change can go in both directions. You may wonder, if I change, will the people in my life still accept me? But after you change, will you still feel the same way about them? Emmett thinks the character of the doctor is always happiest when he or she accepts change with all the gains and losses that come with it. I think that the doctor is very much, is a perfect cipher for what it means to get older and to constantly have shifting ideas. And that I also think is a really useful thing that the doctor provides people, the ability to understand that it's okay to shift and change, which I think a lot of people think of as a scary or a bad thing.

He's sort of advocating the idea that change is good and that you should want to be different people in your life because that means that you're evolving. Those themes of change and evolution are some of the reasons why I fell in love with this series. of change and evolution are some of the reasons why I fell in love with this series. Ever since I was in junior high, I've been going through my own attempts at regeneration, trying to shed whatever parts of myself that I didn't like. I enjoy purging my belongings,

getting rid of old things, old clothes. I've moved around from coast to coast. I've changed careers. I've lost touch with people I've also made new friends, new relationships That constant drive for change can be healthy Sometimes it's not And since the Doctor is a time traveler He occasionally meets earlier versions of himself

Played by the previous actors And the current Doctor will sometimes cringe When he sees what he used to be like occasionally meets earlier versions of himself played by the previous actors. And the current Doctor will sometimes cringe when he sees what he used to be like. And in those moments, I relate to the character a lot. Because when I think of the versions of me from high school or college or when I lived in California, I feel like everything I did or said happened to somebody else in a different body. I just share their memories. None of us get to live as long as the doctor, but we try our best as we go through space and time at our own speed.

And it's good to be reminded that no matter how many times we change, there are core elements that are always inside of us. The only difference is how we choose to express them. Well, that's it for this week. Thank you for listening. Special thanks to Andy Heidel, Nick Randall, Emmett Asher Perrin, Robin Bunce, Silas K. Barrett, Mac Rogers, and Riley Silverman. If you liked this episode, you should check out the rest of the miniseries I did in 2018. I did an episode about the Doctor's companions and an episode about the Doctor's arch-nemesis,

the Daleks. I also interviewed the creature makeup designer for Doctor Who in 2020. My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. The best way to support Imaginary Worlds is to donate on Patreon. At different levels, you can get either free Imaginary Worlds is to donate on Patreon. At different levels, you can get either free Imaginary Worlds stickers,

a mug, a t-shirt, and a link to a Dropbox account, which has a full-length interviews of every guest in every episode. You can also get access to an ad-free version of the show through Patreon, or buy an ad-free subscription on Apple Podcasts. You can subscribe to the show's newsletter

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