Imaginary Worlds - Postcolonial Worlds

Episode Date: September 14, 2022

The stories we tell about the past can determine the way we understand the present. But what happens when we combine tales of magic and fantasy with some of the most traumatic chapters in history? I talk with novelists P. Djeli Clark, Nisi Shawl, and Zen Cho about how speculative fiction can be a useful tool to reimagine the legacy of colonialism and imperialism. Plus, we hear readings from actress Nneka Okoye. Books mentioned in this episode: A Master of Djinn by P. Djeli Clark Everfair by Nisi Shawl Sorcerer to The Crown by Zen Cho Babel, or The Necessity of Violence: An Arcane History of the Oxford Translators’ Revolution by R. F. Kuang (author of The Poppy War series) A Memory Called Empire by Arkady Martine Nisi also recommends: A Stranger in Olondria by Sofia Samatar The Dominion of the Fallen series by Aliette de Bodard  The works of L Timmel Duchamp and Margaret Killjoy This episode is sponsored by Aspiration Zero credit card. Our ad partner is Multitude. If you’re interested in advertising on Imaginary Worlds, you can contact them here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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We've never smelled so good. Shop Old Spice Total Body Deodorant now. You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we create them and why we suspend our disbelief. I'm Eric Malinsky. One of my favorite novels that I read this summer is called Babel. It's by R.F. Kwong, who is best known for writing the Poppy War trilogy. Babel takes place in a 19th century where Britain is ruling the world through enchanted silver.

And the silver can do wonderful things like support old bridges, world through enchanted silver. And the silver can do wonderful things like support old bridges, but the enchanted silver can also do horrific things like create shackles that cast a spell on enslaved people. The spells that bind the silver rely on languages from around the world, and the magicians casting the spells are students at Oxford who came from countries that are colonized or marginalized. At first, the students are dazzled to be at the center of learning and magic, but that feeling doesn't last. It's a fascinating book and it reminded me of another book that I liked from 2019, Arkady Martine's novel, A Memory Called Empire. That story was science fiction instead of fantasy,

but her main character goes to work in the capital of this huge galactic empire. People in the empire condescend to her because she's from an outer planet and she needs to be protective of her homeland, but she still gets seduced by this magnificent imperial culture.

And then I realized there are themes of empire in colonialism all over speculative fiction right now. There's a novel from 2021 called A Master of Djinn by P. Jolly Clark. It's part of a series of works he created that imagines what if Egyptians in the late 19th century were able to overthrow British colonization with the magic of djinns or genies as they're known in the West. There was also the 2016 novel Everfare by Nisi Schaal which imagines what if the Belgian Congo was liberated

in the 19th century and turned into a steampunk utopia. And there's the novel Sorcerer to the Crown by Zen Cho from 2015, which also had a sequel that came out four years later. That series takes place in a 19th century where the British Empire uses magic to dominate the world. But the most powerful magic users in the British government were born in India and Africa, which causes all sorts of complications. Now, I've read plenty of books that imagine stories of magic that are set at the height of the British Empire. But until recently, not many of them were grappling with the impact of empire on the rest of the world.

on the rest of the world. And I find it interesting that these books are coming out at a time when teaching history has become very controversial on both sides of the Atlantic. Some adults have argued that if children at a young and impressionable age learn the full truth of their nation's history, it might cause them to feel ashamed and angry to the point where it could permanently damage their sense of national pride. But what happens when we use fantasy to recreate the past, especially very traumatic periods in history? How do stories of magic and wondrous technology help us understand the legacy of colonialism and imperialism in a different way than realistic stories. After the break, I will talk with some of the authors that I mentioned about why and how they rewrote history. This episode is brought to you by Secret.

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it started with steampunk. If you can remember back to 10 or even 15 years ago, steampunk was all the rage. Steampunk. If you can remember back to 10 or even 15 years ago, steampunk was all the rage. Steampunk imagines modern technology, or even fantastical technology, being created with equipment from the 19th or early 20th century, like a DIY computer made entirely out of typewriter parts.

There is also steampunk fashion, where people somehow managed to look cool while wearing top hats and monocles. In 2009, Nisi was invited to speak on a panel about steampunk literature at the World Fantasy Convention. Nisi thought they were a strange fit for this panel, and they were dreading the thought of going. I thought, why do I hate steampunk? Because I did. And I have a deep and abiding love of Victorian literature. And I am actually kind of kinky about gears and, and gaskets and all of that sort of steampunk stuff. And I figured out what it was, that it was far too supportive of European colonialism. And I got up there and I said my piece about hating steampunk in front of all of these people who were aficionados,

they were aghast. I mean, you know, what could they do? This was supposed to be a very pro-steampunk panel. Because I'm the kind of person who doesn't just like to complain about things, I like to make them better. I said that I would write the kind of steampunk novel that questioned and subverted the idea that imperialism and colonialism were the backbone of steampunk. At the time, they happened to be reading a nonfiction book about the Belgian Congo. Specifically, it was about how King Leopold II colonized and plundered that part of Africa. That was in my mind.

And I said, I will write about this. I said, and I will make you beg to read it. We will get back to Nisi later in the episode to find out how they turned one of the worst human rights abuses of the 19th century into a story about hope and ingenuity. But let's move on now to the novelist, Zen Cho. She was raised in Malaysia, which used to be a British colony. She had always been an Anglophile growing up.

She really loved classic English novels. And then she moved to London to attend university. She had always been an Anglophile growing up. She really loved classic English novels. And then she moved to London to attend university. It was strange kind of relating to this culture that in a way I had grown up with as mediated through books. But in a way I didn't really know anything about because obviously I'd never lived there before. As she was dealing with this culture shock, she went to an art museum. She was looking at the old paintings of English life. And suddenly she realized, not everybody in these paintings is white. The kind of non-white presence in, you know, these depictions of an era that in pop culture is often depicted as very white really intrigued me.

And that inspired her novel, Sorcerer to the Crown. That kind of was one of the kind of initial triggers, kind of start to think, oh, you know, here's a painting of, say, a 19th century scene. And that's just like this little boy who's a page boy, and he's Black, and he's the only Black person in this picture. And what must that have been like? And kind of thinking about that gave rise to the character of Zacharias, who's the main character of Sorcerer to the Crown. And he's Britain's first African sorcerer royal. And he basically was kind of adopted by his parents who are white British people. Zen did not want to do a story like Bridgerton, which is set in a 19th century where race seems to not even be an

issue. Race is definitely an issue for Zacharias, her main character, and another character named Prunella, who comes from India. What magic did, you know, making it a fantasy, it gave me a way of kind of equalizing them, you know, like, so Zacharias is in the position he's in because he has magical talent, like, and that's why he's adopted by this kind of wealthy white guy who then makes him his ward. And Prunella equally, her kind of magical talents kind of give her the ability to make her way in the society that she otherwise wouldn't have many advantages in. But it was also really important to her that the book had a sense of charm and adventure. It was fun to read. I wanted to write the kind of book that you might read

when you're having a cold and you just need a bit of distraction, but then also have a little bit of that, you know, investigating the workings of empire, how Britain's wealth is founded, was founded, and is founded, I guess, in that exploitation, its overseas territories. Here is the actress Nneka Okoye reading part of an excerpt from Sorcerer to the Crown. It had not been three months since Zacharias Wythe had taken up the staff of the Sorcerer Royal, not so long since his predecessor, Sir Stephen Wythe, had died. of the Sorcerer Royal, not so long since his predecessor, Sir Stephen Wythe, had died. He was an object of general interest, and to the great increase of Lady Frances's complacency,

more than one pair of eyes followed his progress around her drawing room. Zacharias Wythe could not fail to draw attention wherever he went. The dark hue of his skin would mark him out among any assembly of his colleagues, but he was also remarkable for his height and the handsomeness of his features, which was not impaired by his rather melancholy expression. Perhaps the last was not surprising in one who had entered into his office in such tragic circumstances, and at a time when the affairs of English thaumaturgy were approaching an unprecedented crisis. Stranger than his colour, however, and more distressing than any other circumstance, was the fact that Zacharias' wife had no familiar, though he bore the Sorcerer Royal's ancient staff.

Lady Frances' guests did not hesitate to tell each other what they thought of this curious absence. I should not like to show my spells to anyone in their current state, said Zacharias now. Lady Wythe was too wise to press the point. Well then, perhaps we ought to see to your being introduced to some of the young ladies here. Lady Frances said they might get up a dance after dinner. There cannot be any objection to your joining in, and it would be a pity if any young lady were compelled to sit out a dance for want of a partner. Zacharias's look of consternation was comical. I scarcely think they will be pleased to be offered such a partner. You forget in your partiality what a very alarming object I am. Nonsense, cried Lady Wife.

You are precisely the kind of creature girls like best to swoon over. Dark, mysterious, quiet. The very image of romance. Think of Othello. His romance came to no good end, said Zacharias. After Niecy Shaw went on that panel about steampunk and declared that they were going to write a fun steampunk novel set in the Congo, And I will make you beg to read it.

they went deep into research mode. They became interested in a group of English socialists called the Fabian Society. And this is a real group that was founded in the 19th century. So Nisi imagined, what if the Fabian Society had teamed up with African-American missionaries to purchase land in the Congo from King Leopold. And within that land, they set up a free state called Everfair. Because all Leopold cared about was getting rich. So if he could just have people give him money, then he would be satisfied, they would be satisfied, and there would be an adventure. In their research, Nisi also came across Fordlandia, which is a town that Henry

Ford created in Brazil. If Henry Ford could do that, why not a bunch of actual socialists? So, you know, finding out about how Fordlandia worked, it formed how I set up Everfair. And what about the steampunk elements? I mean, did you get to a point where you started to enjoy that? Well, of course I enjoyed it because I do enjoy that kind of stuff. You know, rubber, gaskets, brass, bring it on. I tried to be very particular about how the air canoes, I called them, the airships, how they docked, you know, and the procedures of mooring them to different towers. And I tried to be very specific about their dimensions and

their carrying capability and all that kind of stuff. It also seems to, I mean, there's been a lot of calls for stories about, I mean, the phrase I always hear is black joy instead of historical trauma, revisiting historical trauma over and over again, but also still acknowledging the past at the same time. It sounds like this kind of fits into that as well. Yes. Yes, I would say so. I mean, there are horrible things that happen, but I also wanted to make sure that there was where there were great things. There were mechanical swings that people used to cross flooded streets. And I wanted to make sure that there was support for that enjoyment, that black joy. Yeah.

Here's the actress Nneka Okoye reading part of an excerpt from Everfair. Color crept into the sky, blue soaking through the black. Then the sun appeared to rise out of the east. At first silently, but soon accompanied by a faint droning hum. Louder, louder, blinded by the dawn, they couldn't see the air canoe until it had come so near that many of its details were also suddenly visible. Brown, mottling the swelling red sides of what looked like a giant gourd, lines connecting that thing to an elongated nest-like construction below,

faces above the nest's high sides. The growling of the air canoe's engine had grown to a roar like a waterfall. It was matched by the astonished cries it provoked from his local subjects as they poured from their homes and out over the countryside. Above all that noise came shouting from the flying boat. Indistinguishable words. Then the device's sound was somehow dampened. The shouts could now be understood.

Grab hold! Pull us to you and hold us still! Quickly, Mwenda commanded his people to do this. Other young men jumped high and caught the ropes and hauled the air canoe to where he sat. A wood and fibre ladder was lowered. As his warriors climbed, the air canoe sank. So that by the time the king mounted it, several rungs lay on the ground. so that by the time the king mounted it, several rungs lay on the ground. He had only five hands of steps, five steps per hand,

to take upward before his fighters pulled him carefully over the boat's rim. Two of his soldiers stood in the far end next to a tall, prosperous man, clothed in shirt and trousers. The others gathered together around their king on guard. There were three other passengers already aboard. The fourth passenger was a woman, a white. The third novelist that I spoke with is P. Shelley Clark. He is a history professor at UConn, and he's been writing the Dead Djinn series, which imagines what if Egypt overthrew the British Empire with the help of djinn magic. Like Nisi, the spark for the series began with

a critique of steampunk, and he wanted to see if he could turn historical trauma into a hopeful story. At first, he started looking at Sudan and the uprising in the 1880s, led by Muhammad Ahmad against the British army. Where they infamously used the Maxim gun to bow down, you know, thousands of modest Sudanese who are rebelling, who are launching this rebellion. And I remember I wanted to make that the event where somehow magic would turn the Maxim guns into sand or render them simply inoperable. But as he was delving into research, he realized that he needed to set the story

a few decades later. And that led him to Cairo. And then my other reason was simply any writer's dream. When you go doing research, you want the place that has the most written on it in Cairo. I mean, it's an ancient city. It's a very old city. It's got, it's a crossroad city. And he got to keep one of his original ideas,

that a Sudanese mystic character was the person who figured out how to access djinn magic. Because I have this notion that there were djinn always existing in our world. There were some who were here, but then there was a wall between us and the larger world. And that's what the Sudanese mystic, you know, shatters in many ways. And once he decided how Egypt would free itself, he realized that he had a brand new nation to build in his mind. So now I'm not only the anti-colonial, I'm now delving into the quote-unquote post-colonial. What does that really look like? And so that became, you know, how do I build this? And so I

said, you know, the Egypt of the time did have a king, so I decided to keep the monarchy. And in this one, I call it a peaceful revolution where the monarchy allies have said, well, there'll be a monarchy, but it'll be weak. And we'll now have a parliamentary system and we'll have various parties and we'll introduce democracy. But they are going through all of the things all young democracies go through. Who has rights? Who is a citizen? And I have the jinn there playing this role, right? That it turns out there's often a story of djinn being builders. And so I incorporate that here where they are now technological builders. They take to the age very well. They begin building airships and different things. And so over a short period of time, they managed to turn Cairo, which has always been a hub, into an even greater metropolis that begins rivaling Paris and London. Yeah. So you said earlier when you're like, well, you know, you wanted to create this modern idea of Cairo, but then it sounds like there's certain moments where you have to make sure like, okay, what would their idea of modernism be like? Were there ever moments

that you were like, oh, they should have this, this, this, and then saying, wait, is this my 21st century Western American idea of what I think they should be doing? Like, did you ever have those moments as you were trying to figure this out? Yeah. And I still do. And sometimes I'm fine with saying, hey, you know what? I've got magic in here. Why not, you know, have certain things. But really, I was guided by really all of the politics that was going on in Egypt during that period. There was a very strong nationalist movement. And if you look at the things many of them are arguing for and intellectuals, there's nothing I'm talking about there from the women's movement to ideas of citizenship. There's nothing there that I have brought like this.

Oh, Eureka. Like, I thought this up myself. Sometimes a lot of times you think, well, I may be thinking too modern. You're like, oh, no, actually. I was wondering that too at first when I was reading the book, I was just like, wow, I mean, this is wonderful. There's all this, you know, there's this feminist movement that you've created. And then I started reading interviews with you and you're just like, no, I mean, like the main character is actually based on a real woman from Egypt at the time. Yeah. Yeah. El-Sharari. And so she takes off her veil for famous penetration, becomes an Egyptian feminist. And that's still something that occurred, even though it occurred. I simply move up the date by, I think, a decade or so. The character that he's referring to in the novel, the one who was based on a real person in history, is named Fatma.

based on a real person in history, is named Fatma. And in the story, Fatma works for an Egyptian government agency, which acts as a liaison between the djinn and the human population. Here is Nneka Okoye reading part of an excerpt from A Master of Djinn. Fatma shook her head. This was precisely why he didn't go around opening up mystical bottles. Why was that so hard for people to understand? Well, time to earn her pay. Oh, great one, she called out. I would petition for these two who have wronged you. The married turned his horned head, that fiery gaze scrutinizing. You have been in the company of other djinn. His sharp nose inhaled and wrinkled in distaste. Are you a mortal enchantress? Not an enchantress. Dealing with

magic is just in my line of work. The married seemed to accept that answer, or he didn't care. Do you know why I bound myself to slumber, not enchantress? Because I grew tired of your kind, greedy, selfish, ever seeking to satisfy your wants. I could no longer stomach the sight of you, the stink of you, your ugly little faces. I slept to escape you all in the hopes that when I next awakened you would be gone, struck down by a blessed illness, or slaughtered in one of your endless wars. But here I am, and you are still here. Fatima blinked at the tirade.

Of all the gin these two had to go and wake up, it had to be a bigot. You've been in self-exile in that bottle for at least a thousand years, so let me catch you up There are more of us chattering mortals than you might guess Lots more More of your kind, too, crossed over to this world Jin, live among us now, work with us, follow our laws

Try extending that third eye of yours See what's become of the world while you slept The married didn't react right away. Finally, he closed both his eyes at the same time, widening the third on his forehead until it flared with brilliance. When he reopened his remaining eyes, they looked startled. You speak truth? So many more djinn in this world, working alongside mortals,

living among them, mating with... Yes, all of that. Fatma cut in. Disgusting. People often use the term worldbuilding when talking about speculative fiction. And imperialism is a type of worldbuilding. And imperialism is a type of world building. Although Zen Cho says the tools of of the map, you know, mapping, quote unquote, unknown territories and the census kind of pinning peoples down and kind of giving them categories, giving them names that they might not necessarily have given themselves. And obviously, you know, with fantasy novels opening it and that having that map at the beginning, I mean, that's kind of an interesting connection. Oh, that's so true. I actually did a whole episode about fantasy maps. Yeah. And the kind of, you know, and the kind of stereotype about, you know, maybe more traditional

fantasy being this idea that you have these very clearly defined races, right? Like dividing the world into these categories. That's why P. Jelly Clark made sure that his early drafts were seen by a sensitivity reader. And this person helped make sure that he wasn't drawing on stereotypes. Like, there's a scene in his book where a bigoted white character, who was based on a real historical figure, gets beheaded by a magic user. I loved that. I was like, yeah, that's shut him up. That was great. I was like, yeah, that's shut him up. That was great. When she was like, she was like, I love that you shut him up.

But, you know, cutting off heads, everyone here is a little sensitive about Western media. And I was like, how can I miss that? But because it's not because it's not something that I live with continually, where it's that thing that I wince when I see it. It's that stereotype that I tense up about is a stereotype that nags me in the back of my head. And I know it's that thing that I wince when I see it. It's that stereotype that I tense up about. It's that stereotype that nags me in the back of my head, and I know it's coming there. It was in forefront for me. And that's why sensitivity readers are so important, because something that I thought I would immediately catch, I did not. So I changed that.

Sensitivity readers are a fairly recent phenomenon in publishing, but so is the idea of publishing fantasy novels that take place outside of white spaces. Nisi Shal has seen these changes firsthand. After their novel Everfair came out in 2016, it was one of their best-selling books. So they pitched the idea of a sequel, but the publisher told them Everfair didn't make enough money. Which flabbergasted me. I was like, wait, I earned out my advance. I've gotten thousands of dollars of royalties. How is this not enough money?

That was before the film Black Panther came out. Suddenly, the publisher was very interested in a sequel. Two years after Nisi pitched the idea. Like, what were we thinking? I remember one of the editors said to me, what were we thinking? How could we have, like, not snapped up a sequel immediately? Last year, Nisi submitted a draft of the sequel, which is called Kinning. They really loved it, but they wanted more.

In fact, Nisi's already working on a third book in the series. P. Shelley Clark says, these books might seem new to white publishers or readers, but the ideas in them are not new. Any writer coming from marginalized background, any writer coming from places that were colonized, we've been thinking this stuff up forever, right? I think the industry has decided it can take a chance on this. There are probably a lot of reasons, but the reasons I would give the most is that people have been complaining about it. People have been knocking on those doors, pushing and pushing. And thankfully, we've gotten people also not only writing, but now within the industry itself. I don't know that in 2016, when I put out a call for somebody who's interested in A Dead Gin in Cairo, because it was just random. I put it out on Facebook.

A Dead Gin in Cairo was the first book in his gin series. If Diana Fode, at the time, editor of Tor, wasn't there, who was looking purposely for diverse being steampunk, she'd create a whole blog basically called Beyond Victoriana about diverse steampunk. If she was not there to see my story, I don't know if anyone at tour would have picked it up. I think another reason why these books are finding an audience

is because fantasy can be a helpful way to deal with difficult subjects that people might otherwise avoid. And not just in the West. Zen Cho wrote a fantasy novella that was set during a real period of the Cold War when the Malaysian government was fighting communist insurgents. And that's a really, really fraught history. You know, that's one that

is not really spoken about in a direct way in kind of mainstream Malaysian media and society. So telling it head on would have felt quite challenging to me. So fantasy was kind of a distancing mechanism. History is not written in stone. History is a story that we tell. And a fantasy story can make those stone statues come to life. That's why Nisi Schall writes these stories. Because if you re-examine the past, that tends to make you think differently about the present, which then can, of course, influence how youoye, who did the readings. Also thanks to Nisi Shawl, Sen Cho, and P. Jelle Clark,

who credits his mother for making him aware of the blind spots in fantasy genres at a very young age. I wasn't allowed to see Star Wars when it first came out because there were no black people in it. My mother was like, no. And I said, but mom, it's set in a galaxy long time ago. She was like, well, there were definitely no white people before black people. So you're definitely not saying that.

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