Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast - 239 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Aaron Blaine

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

Sponsored by: BetterHelp This week we discuss Joe's podcast guests as always. Guest list: Aaron Blaine is a former Special Forces member and now Director of Operations at The Station Foundation. Today we talked about his powerful Ayahuasca experience in Mexico. Link to the retreat he went on: LINK 5% of ALL SPONSORSHIP proceeds goes to Justin Wren and his Fight for the Forgotten charity!! This commitment is for now and forever. They will ALWAYS get money as long as we run ads so we appreciate your support too as you listeners are the reason we can do this. Thanks! Stay safe.. Enjoy folks! Follow me on Instagram at www.instagram.com/joeroganexperiencereview Please email us here with any suggestions, comments and questions for future shows.. [e-mail] Follow Garrett on Instagram here: www.instagram.com/gloveone

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast. We find little nuggets treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience podcast and pass them on to you, perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's walking dead. Enjoy the show. Podcast. You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've created now with your hosts Adam Thorn One go draw the show this podcast is sponsored by better help and the Joe Rogan experience review listeners get 10% off their first month at

Betterhelp.com slash review. In 2021, mental health is finally a thing. So many people are struggling right now and aren't feeling like they're normal selves. Therapy helps. And it doesn't have to be sitting around just talking about your feelings. So what is therapy? Exactly. It's whatever you want it to be. You can privately talk to someone if you feel like you're not dealing well with your stress or you're having relationship issues. Whatever you need, don't be ashamed of normal human struggles and start feeling better because you deserve to be happy. And now you don't have to worry about finding an in-person therapist near you.

Better Help is customized online therapy that offers video, phone and even live chat sessions with your therapist so you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. You can keep it private that way. It's much more affordable than in-person therapy and you can start communicating with your therapist in under 48 hours. Join the millions of people who are seeing what therapy is all about, see if it's for you because you are your greatest asset. Again, that's better, help.com-review. calm slash review. Hey guys and welcome to a slightly unusual but also special edition of the Joe Rogan Experience review. I had a feeling that at least one week this month Joe was going to be off hunting. I did not expect him to get COVID so there were no shows last week as I'm sure we all we all know he got

sick, got over it real fast. But because of that what I wanted to do is something a little different and part of the reason why I started this podcast was to kind of talk to other fans and other people that I've met, that are fans of Rogan. And how could I put this? Like, see where he's inspired them, you know, to see, because the show that he has is not just entertainment. There's a reason so many many it resonates with so many people and it's one of the most listened to things on the planet. And I think what stands out to a lot of people is the good habits and the motivational messages that come from it and people act on it.

And today I have a conversation with a really good friend of mine, Aaron Blaine, who is former Special Forces and now works with helping people with post-traumatic stress and has kind of made it his life to do that. And since getting out of the military, he has been inspired by Rogan in very specific ways that actually during the podcast, they found out there was some of the same things aligned. And, you know, it's kind of like following a message. I don't want to get too woo-woo with it, but it's like you see something that sounds good

and you go for it and then it has a really positive impact on your life. So I hope you enjoy it and yeah, here we go. Hey guys and welcome to this special episode of this goes podcast. Not joined today by Sean as per you, but we've a guest in a good friend of mine and Sean's Aaron Blaine. Go ahead and introduce yourself. Hey, my name is Aaron Blaine and yeah, I'm Adam's friend. And we've known each other how long now.

My parents. Two, two, two and a half years? Oh, I think it's been longer than that. Been longer than that, I think it's three or four years, right? Yeah, maybe. Because listen, like when we were doing retreats in Joshua Tree, we did one or two a year, I actually don't do that was probably 2017 They all blend together so it's been like three or four years. It's been a while

Yeah, yeah, and like now that you're in bozeman I just assumed that I met you in bozeman, but I actually met you in Joshua tree. Mm-hmm. That was the first time That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we're friends a while and Give us a bit of your background and then we jump into the to the topic of today awesome So I'm a veteran of the United States Army special forces Integrated back into being a civilian around 2017 I have a family. I'm a father, and I now work for a nonprofit organization called the Station Foundation, and it's an organization that holds retreats and supports special operations,

veterans, and service members and their families. Yeah, and there's a lot more to say, but I think that kind of sums it up. Yeah, so, so like an interesting transition through like full on warrior and then supporting Yeah, in that sense. Absolutely. And, and through the kind of avenue of men's work and led you, it's almost like full circle. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you're always gonna go here. Yeah, full circle in many ways. Like, there's so

many layers to this onion. You know, I heard a podcast on Joe Rogan about Dan Doty who led me to Dan, got me in a men's group, that then got me a job with them. And that's how I met you in the desert. And now we're sitting here doing a podcast. And so it was him being on the, you didn't know him before the podcast? No, not at all.

So that's fascinating. So a lot of my, a lot of my transition, I'd have to give credit to Joe Rogan specifically. Most of where I was getting my news and awareness of wellness and I think just the open dialogue and conversations that he was having with people felt authentic, it felt like a trustable news source. And so I got most of what I learned

through transition through like the Rogan podcast. That's why. Yeah, because I first started listening, started getting into hunting a lot more, started listening to like, Remy Warren, Steve Rinella, got real big into the meat eater stuff, which gave me a mission,

gave me a purpose. I was already in Montana. Hunting helped a lot. Then moving on to like like sleep episodes and like wellness for a gut health. I heard Dan on the podcast talking about his men's group had no idea what a men's group was, but there was something in that podcast that intrigued me enough to reach out to him actually on Facebook Messenger of all things.

No way. Yeah, so it reached out to him, said, what's up, and then like three days later, I was having coffee with him right up here in Boseman. Yeah, now maybe we should say, I mean, obviously, a lot of you guys are gonna remember the podcast that Dan was on, but Dan, Dodie was the first guy

to take Joe Rogan hunting. I guess somehow Joe reached out to him. Oh, well. To the media guys. Yeah, so I think he had reached out to the media. Guys, Dan was like executive producer at ZPZ. And I think they were out in like Utah or Nevada. And they went on a Mildir hunt. and I guess Joe got kind of coupled up with Dan and they were out hunting Mjuldir together. And so the podcast I heard was them driving back from that hunt and it was like in a truck.

It was like one of the only ones Rogan did like out in a truck. Out of the studio. And so the second that Dan said, yeah, I live in Boseman, Montana. I was like, okay, I'm reaching out to this guy There's there's too many synchronicities here like meat eater men's group like this guy sounds like a solid dude I think the thing that attracted me the most was that he he talked a lot about wilderness therapy Hmm, and I was looking definitely a seeker. I was looking for help in the transition. From like you said, a word to a regular human

is not always the easiest. And so I was looking for something. It's got to be weird to get back to it. It's like normal. Yeah, you come off the off ramp of a C130 and there you are back. All of a sudden you got a standing line. And jeans and t-shirt. Yeah.

You stop at red lights and yeah. Yeah, there aren are no red lights and no this is no traffic lights no so yeah it was a difficult but really amazing journey from from full-time soldier to like dad and husband and friend and just like regular die dude that is fascinating because that is exactly the same type, I mean, I heard Dan on Rogan and I knew that Sean knew him. Like, yeah, I'll be. Mutual friend Sean, I knew him well.

I was like in a men's group with him. And I'm like, oh, that's your buddy. And he was like, yeah, he goes, I love you to meet him one day. And I was like, well, I'm actually gonna be there next week. And he's like, what? And I go,, oh, that's your buddy. And he was like, yeah, he goes, I love you to meet him one day. And I was like, well, I'm actually going to be there next week. And he's like, what? And I go, I booked a ticket. I'm coming off.

Let's meet dad. That's amazing. And it was always my style to do things like that. And because Sean's known me forever, like, you know, Sean's a planner. But he is always giving me that space to be like, yeah, Adam would just do this. Well, it surprises me very little that you did. So you know me too. Yeah.

And that was it. I came up and I met Dan. Same thing went back to Santa Monica. I guess his close friend from school, Hagen was, lived there. They'd been trying to put a group together and that's how I did my group. Same thing. So again it's like the reach of what Rogan Show can do and that's always what I'm gonna put a group together and that's how I did my group. Same thing. So again, it's like the reach of what Rogan show can do and that's always what I'm looking for.

Like what is, what are the nuggets of gold? Like what's useful in this? Like when you think it may be the most listened to piece of media on the planet, you better fucking hope it's useful. Otherwise, it's the opposite, right? Just de facto. If it doesn't have a good message,

what the hell is it doing for people? So this is a good example of when it does something beneficial. And absolutely. And I think I always seeked out the podcast or the guests that he had that were talking about things that I was really interested in. And so it was like a menu. Like some of the stuff I knew I didn't want to tap into, like I actually didn't have much

interest in UFC at that time. And so he'd be talking to UFC guys and I'm like, okay cool, I'm on this like somewhat of a spiritual path trying to get help trying to heal. So most of what I'd listen to was like, hey, like I said, how to sleep better, how to, you know, they had Dr. Gordon on there, talked about the the TVI protocol. And then, yeah, even smaller world, Andrew Marr, that was on his podcast with with Rogan and Dr. Gordon, he was in the same company and the and the special forces teams that I was on. Oh, no way.

Yeah, and so I knew who Andrew was. We didn't know each other well, but I was like, okay, if that guy's doing it, that gives me some permission and some modeling to like go ahead and trust this. And so I think that's what Rogan does really well is he models and has people, authentic people who are experts in their field, modeling what looks right, that have really valid information, and then it's not a news reel, it's not an advertisement, you just get to hear straight from the source, like the education that these people have, their experience and how it lines up with their career, and I think that's

what really helped me to trust his podcast was that, you know, these are actual people doing these things on the ground. It's not just an Oprah Winfrey, you know, interview. Yeah, it's not like it's, it's like those late night frickin' infomercial bullshit. Like that's how we would get things in the past like this guy's selling this book and he's got his I'm selling voice on Rogan takes all that away even when people go on then they have it is something they want to push like pushing themselves or a book They wrote or he just Talks he cuts right he cuts right through he's like who are you? Yep, where are we going with this it It throws them off, they get comfortable,

and then we're like, oh, now I know who this person is. I think I am gonna buy that book. Yeah, and what I think it boils down to, really, is authenticity. Right. There's so much authenticity, because you get to hear the story, you get to actually, and he'll mess with people.

And so, like you said, he'll kind of get under their skin, he'll kind of like, you know, rough them up a little bit to where they don't really have that pitch ability anymore. And it's just a guy, and a girl or a guy, I want a podcast. It's not just an advertisement. Yeah, all here, it do exactly that.

And like say something really silly. Like way off the cuff and slightly like taboo and then people realize real fast, oh this isn't a regular interview. Like of all the tight, like if you're on a book tour, you're at get asked the same questions, you've got the same cookie cutter response, so you just have to, it's how it goes, they're looking for little sound bites for their for their channel or their news article and Rogan's just like what do you think about fucking monkey attacks and they're like wait what yeah he's only let's watch this video this guy shooting himself right and it just throws it and then you get to see some real reactions exactly madness but it's genius but that's what we're doing here

too and that's why I I appreciate the fact that we didn't have like you know specialized you know questions or any kind of you know Oh, and adventure mostly because I'm lazy and I'm prepared. Okay, I believe that Yeah, you know that too. Thanks a lot. It take does it in your wit May override the the planning. Yeah, I can compensate I take that as a compliment. And your wit may override the planning. So I can compensate. I trust that. I can compensate nicely.

Right, so let's talk about something that happened recently that is a type of message that I think has not been well documented. The best places I've heard it is on and through podcasts. And it's something that I know people are fascinated about Joe talks about it other people in his kind of community

discuss it and and there's a growth factor from it that still has a lot of taboo yet I don't know get into it. Yeah so I think what we're talking about here is psychedelics and I think right now it feels to me like that closet door starting to open. I'm hearing more about it in the regular news I'm hearing stories about veterans using it for therapy I'm hearing about it for brain injury. I mean, there's so many different things that it can benefit.

And I think people are starting to see the writing on the walls, and more people are trying it. And you're really in the perfect position to understand what this is. You know, almost more, it's more important that you do it than a lot of people with the type of therapy that you have forward. Because the challenges you must have, helping people that have gone out to war, don't want they've done, come back, I mean the therapies that they've had traditionally do not seem effective.

These people are getting loaded up with drugs that make them shake that they can't get off. It's not allowing them to get through that trauma and this is just what I've heard. Like I don't know a lot about it. Like this is what has thrown me on to a totally unconventional path is that I was that guy. I was the guy go into the VA, getting the bins, those, getting the antidepressants and feeling numb on an airplane, not knowing where I was and being like, hey, there's got to be a better way to do this. And so I started seeking out more unconventional therapy. I think that like right off the bat, I probably wasn't ready for psychedelics,

but because of the work that I've done in the somatic, which is the body and emotional work. Through the men and emotional work. Through the men's group stuff. Through just having more self awareness of my body, how I hold myself, how I hold my stress, how to work through things. I think knowing all that and learning all that through the every man's stuff and the men's work stuff

got me to a point where psychedelics made more sense. Because personally I felt like I knew what to do once I took them. It was like all this work is like drinking through a fire hose when you're dealing with all kinds of different therapies. And you're trying to figure out what makes sense and what works for you, but it's hard to integrate all that into your life. And I think what psychedelics did for me was validate a lot of what was working and then showed me, okay, yeah, and you can do these other things.

And so it was like a teacher in a way of things I already had learned. I can't imagine coming right off the, you know, right out out of the military and just going straight into it. I want to caution that. And I also want to caution that. Get off the boat and he is eight grams of mushroom.

And he listeners. Yeah, it's like, you know, I wouldn't just jump right into it. It's something that you have to take seriously. You have to understand, you have to respect, build a relationship with, and then, yeah, when you know, and they always say with psychedelics, you'll know when you're ready to do it. Because you go do it, right? You're there.

Now this most recent adventure that you had with that is that the most kind of like therapeutically guided that you've had or have you done a lot of the guided styles? How have you really a lot of the guided styles? Yeah, how do you how have you really explored psychedelics generally? So I was actually leading a retreat in California and I had a participant come up to me and say hey man, I've done a lot of work with veterans and I would love to take you into the desert and to Joshua Tree and take mushrooms with you.

And I like just became really good friends with this guy. And so I agreed to it. I was like, sure. I'm like, I trust him for some reason. He had been to a couple other retreats. Had you ever done him before? Never done him before. Oh, shoot. I mean, I had like smoked pot in high school and that was the extent of it. Right.

And so that intrigued me and I think like listening to Rogan and hearing just to your point about the community members and people that had brought up psychedelics in his podcast gave me permission to go, okay, there's actually like normal people out there that are not woo woo hippie spiritual types that are doing these, you know, that are experiencing these plants and that they're getting benefit from it. And so I went into the desert with this guy. I think this is 2018 and I didn't know what to expect. I just trusted him and I did a five gram dose in the desert which which was like a full spectrum experience for me.

That's it. It was, I didn't know what 5 grams was. I just said, okay. And so next thing you have to find out. I was eating a peanut butter sandwich with a bunch of mushrooms on it. And then from there, it was all the way from complete terror to like bliss and on a spectrum of about six hours.

Wow. And so when I came out of that experience, now was he guiding you for it? Was there a lot? Oh, is he kind of like left you and gave you some space in and out some support? So it was kind of, it was kind of an in between. He had kind of let me know at the beginning to come up with some intentions. He cautioned that it's gonna be typically kind of scary at times, especially for my first experience, kind of talking me through letting go and relaxing. And it took me a while to get there.

And once I got there, you know, and with mushrooms, I always tell people, it feels like you're getting hit with a baseball bat and the chest until you let go. And so it kind of doesn't give you a choice. It's like, dude, you're going to let go. It's how much you're going to fight this, how much you're going to try to take control of it. It just doesn't work. And so I learned quickly that I wasn't in control anymore. And I think that was one of the biggest learning lessons for me. I have been in control my whole life.

And so I've been in control as a young boy, 11 years old, losing my father, becoming the man of the house, having to take care of everybody, and then joining the military becoming a leader, especially in the special forces, and always having it together. Always having control, always being, you know, whatever voice of reason, having, you know, having the wherewithal to get through experiences. And so constantly under pressure. Constantly under pressure, and then to be able to let go and actually feel what that feels like. It might have been the first time I had ever let go. Ever. Wow.

And what was the feeling? The feeling was like, and I believe I had it a complete ego death. So the feeling that I had when things started to get scary was, I'm not a grounded person. I don't know what ground feels like, because I'm constantly looking under rocks for things I'm constantly trying to fix things. I'm constantly trying to And I've been in this pattern my whole life of burning myself out

Right, and then so what it showed me is that like I don't have to be the person in control And there are times where I can be, but there are times to let go and times to rest. And so the whatever the plants communicated to me at that time was like, dude, you got to, you just got to slow down. And like I had known that concept through, you know, men's work and through retreats and through, you know, all the work that I had done. But to really, really physically feel the act of letting go, that was brand new to me. That slowing down thing comes up over and over again.

And it seems like it should be the easiest thing to do. The idea that you basically, like the fundamentals of it, I'll do nothing, think very little, and just let stuff happen. And it couldn't be fucking more difficult to do. No, it's really probably one of the hardest things to articulate and actually perform. And just the words slung down. You know how to slow down a car, right? You just, you apply the brake. Why is that so easy?

But slowing down your life isn't. And I mean, there's a lot of different factors here. I think we're all trying to get to something, right? We're all trying to compete. We're all trying to perform. We're all trying to achieve. And so all trying to perform. We're all trying to achieve. And so there's always this like carrot in front of us that says you got to go. You got to do. You got to you have to perform. And I think coming from special forces, it's like a high peak performance lifestyle where you're working out, you're playing hard,

you're partying hard, and you just got to get shit done. There's no excuses. And so, I actually had no idea how to slow down. I think that like through a lot of the men's work, I had kind of started to hit the break, but I think what happened is I actually hit the gas on that. Right. Which made me, because I felt responsible, like, oop, I've got this skill set now, I've got this skill set now. I've got to help other people. And so kind of hitting the gas on that and just taking myself back into the old pattern.

Right, you think it's like a positive momentum. Yeah, and look how productive I'm being. And then all you're really doing is just burning yourself out. Yeah, because I looked at it and I was like, oh, wow, so here I am burning myself out trying to help other people trying to guide them through being a better father or a husband or a friend. And I'm not actually doing that. And so for me, I think the plants articulate somehow

this trans-personal experience where you get to see yourself doing things. You see yourself acting, you see yourself, your life as a whole, and it's like an opportunity to step back and look at it and study it and kind of just comprehend what's going on and it really slowed down setting. Now let me ask you this, going back a little bit with all of this new found understanding of how these plant medicines can benefit your life, try and take yourself back to when you were in the military. What, like there must have been a way different idea because I have friends in the military and they're still in and now and

Sometimes through the podcast I get emails from people that are in the military and maybe they're stressed about the things that are happening to them and they want That like one person recently it was actually his wife reached out and was like he won't meditate He's really anxious and could you send some links of Rogan podcast where he's talked about meditation. Luckily there's a bunch of them, but he's a big Rogan fan and he might listen and that was her way of like opening up. Now I wasn't going to open him up with, you know, try some plant medicine or whatever, like that's not my role. I gotta be very careful in that department, but what are the stigmas that you have towards the idea of even doing this and exploring this,

which probably I would imagine a lot of people in the military have? Yeah, so I think the best thing I could equate it to is like being on a sports team and being responsible for pulling your way, being responsible for being your way, being responsible for being good at whatever position you're at. And so if you're on a soccer team or a football team and you're, you know, your wide receiver,

you're expected to do that role and do it well. And you know, when you're in the military, it's the same thing, except for it's also the same thing when you go out to the bars. It's also the same thing when you're, you know, it's the same thing, except for it's also the same thing when you go out to the bars. It's also the same thing when you're hanging out, playing Xbox. There's never really an opportunity to slow down. There's an expectation to be the best or to. And when you're not doing that, you're

busing each other's balls. And there is a huge stigma about getting help. There's a stigma about being weak. There's a stigma about, I would say, more of the therapeutic type modalities, like yoga and meditation, are looked at as like a woo-woo or a weak wave, I don't know, moving through life. And so it's not something you see, you don't see a lot of wellness stuff going on because you're supposed to be above that. Right. Is at least my perspective,

I don't want to proselytize or like say that my experience is the same as everybody else's, but I think being on the teams is a, and I loved it. I loved being the go-to guy. I loved being the hyperformer. I loved being the go-to guy. I love being the hyperformer. I love being really in shape but you take it on as an as an identity and it becomes your tribe and so when you're on a team

especially a special forces team or a seal team where there's this really extreme belonging feeling dream belonging feeling. You belong to something and they respect you and you respect them. And there's almost not a whole lot of time to let your hair down. And like I said, it's in work, it's in play, and it just kind of, it just kind of consumes you. And at least it consumed me to the point

where I was running so fast I didn't know what was behind me. Right. And so a lot of people say like when you're in the army like you know you're compartmentalizing a lot of stuff. You know you go through traumatic experiences, you go through training that's exhausting and you just you pick up and you go on to the next thing. So there's not a whole lot of time for processing. And so what I think happens is there's this you know, metaphorical, you know, cheetah that's kind of chasing you and you just keep going and you just keep running and you just keep doing and then when you slow down you're afraid all

that stuff's going to catch you. And that's what I think, that's what happens when a lot of guys get out of the military and go to transition. Is it, they suddenly realize, oh wow, now that I've slowed down, now that I'm out, like what am I doing? Who am I? How am I contributing? Like what, what is happening here? Because it's, it's vastly different to be on a special forces team and then just to be a regular guy in Montana. Yeah. And so there's just, there's not a great bridge that I know there's a lot of organizations

and there's a lot of, you know, different modalities. There's things that help guys transition and integrate. But I don't think that there's think that we have figured out a way to build that bridge. And it's going to be different for everyone. And I think that's the big challenge. Someone might do what I did. I became pre-spiritedly promiscuous through wellness.

Once I started realizing, wow, taking care of myself allows me to take care of the people that rely on me. And then realizing, oh, wow, this is amazing. There's so much coming up for me in my subconscious through meditation or through yoga that I was not even aware of because I didn't slow down enough to take the time to process that stuff. So I think it's like there's a Like there's there's a moment where I had where I just realized I had a deficit for Processing and there was a deficit for

All of the experiences that I've had that had just built up and then it was like my body said you're done It's it's it's time to really slow down or you're gonna die. Like you're gonna burn yourself out and you're gonna die because you haven't dealt with any of this. Was it like all eventually you're running so fast and there's this massive emotional baggage coming with you

that's almost like a wrecking bowl and as soon as you slow down it just squashes you. Great way to articulate that and I think that's what it feels like. It literally felt like, especially after that first journey that I did in the desert with mushrooms, I felt as if I took off like a snow suit filled with weights of shit that I had just been holding on to. Like my body felt different. Like it felt there was a lightness or like a gentleness that I had for myself and my surroundings and nature that people I was with. It's like I could actually see someone and I could see myself rather than just running

through this on this hamster wheel. Right. And it's like the hamster wheel stopped and was like, no, it's time to get off and experience life as it is. Not trying to get somewhere, not to perform to a standard, not fit in. And I think like, that's the big thing. It's like fitting in is different than belonging. I think we're all trying to get to one of those,

but when we fit in, we're kind of, I don't know, I would say sacrificing some authenticity, right? Right. And so I got to see in my experience, man, I'm really trying to fit in or I'm really trying to be, I'm trying to belong, but I'm not being myself. Right, I should act this way

because that's what's expected Yeah, the way kind of want to tear someone's head off right now Yeah, so it all comes down to even just like like the way that you communicate with people the way you treat people You know storytelling the way that you you know interact is it's it's all the same and interact is it's all the same and I'm recognizing in that experience that I had been kind of putting on a mask or playing around for so long that it just wasn't my true nature. And I think I was getting there through the men's work and I was getting there through the therapy, I was getting there through all of the stuff that I had been practicing,

but that was like, boom, there was just this mirror right in front of my face that said, do look at, look at, it shows you, I think we had talked about this before, it shows you who you are in that moment. And it's like, wow, but I think it also somehow shows you compassion for why you got there. And so for me it felt like it just opened up a space to work with that I didn't know about before. It was like oh there's a there's a there's a lot more space here and I think when you slow down or when someone slows down

you get to feel that space a little bit more. So with this growth and the things you were learning in pieces, then you take on this psychedelic approach and you start exploring that. How would you describe the leap of benefit compared to other types of therapies that you employed on yourself? Is it a big jump forward? For me, it was a giant leap.

I don't think I could have got there any other way. Right. I mean, I can't imagine getting there any faster than what I got with psychedelics. I felt like it was like, you know, the chemistry experience, or experiment, where it was a catalyst. Yeah, it felt like, you know, someone poured in this chemical that just said, okay, that's gonna really boil over and make its way to where it needs to go.

Right. And so that's what it felt like for me was like, oh man, like, I'm curious about these things. I'm seeking, I'm trying. It was like really clunky and gritty and slow moving, but the psychedelic experience, honestly, the one I did recently in Mexico was about like 25 to 30 years of therapy in about a week.

So let's talk about that, right? So you've explored these things a little bit and you get to this point, and I remember talking to you before you went into this now To break it down there was sessions of Iowaska, which you had not done before right yeah, okay So that's a that's a DMT Version of it with the whatever inhibitor I forget so it lasts a long time, but a different trip Yes, then Shroom's very exploratory. The type of thing

that I don't know from what I've heard that you can even do recreationally. Like it's taking you on a very specific journey. I don't know if many people do ayahuasca raves. I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen. I can't imagine being on ayahuasca in any kind of recreational situation. So you go to this retreat, they have, quote, unquote, you know, shamans there to help you through. It's very guided. You said you started with a big heavy mushroom dose right at the first day. So there was a Mexican woman from Wahaka, and she was a and she was a shaman of mushrooms.

So she came and did, she performed the first ceremony. And so she brought me into a room and asked me what my intentions were. And I was blown away at like whatever authenticity she was showing or modeling was that she actually really cared and she really wanted to help me. I love meeting people like that. Yeah, and like she's trying to even describe how they do it or what they are.

Like you know it's true. Yeah, like when I think about this woman's face, it makes me emotional because it's very clear that these people are devoting their lives to this work to help you, even within a couple minutes of meeting them. And that's one thing I was concerned about is trust. Am I going to trust these guides? Am I going to trust the facilitators?

Is the environment going to be ideal for me to grow in? And with, like I said, within minutes, I was like, whoa, this woman deeply, deeply cares. And so she brought me into a room. We talked about my intentions. She asked me some very specific questions. And then she said, how much have you explored with psychedelics? And I had told her about my mushroom experience in Joshua Tree.

And she said, well, how much did you do? Like, what was your dose? And I told her, like, around four or five grams. And she said, okay, well, tonight we're gonna double that. Oh, mama. And so I looked at her and that was like when the instant fear came poured over my body because I remembered what it was like my first show.

Were you holding onto the ground? And I was like, whoa. And for some reason I was like, okay, Roger that, let's get moving. And so I trusted her, whatever she was gonna do, I was all in for it. And so yeah, there were Mexican guides there for that ceremony. And then what they said was that the mushrooms and the psilocybin experience really helps to

ground you before going into the ayahuasca ceremonies. Which I believe I think mushrooms are a very grounding experience. I mean, it literally feels like you have a relationship with the ground and the earth in yourself. And so it kind of- Almost like an added detox. Because you did a detox before you went there, right? Yeah. And I want to make sure I articulate that because it's really important is, you know, about

a month before the ceremony, before my travels down to Mexico, it was just diet. Just diet. It was a diet. Yeah, popdarts. No, it was vegetables and chicken and that's pretty much it. And so I cut out red meat, I cut out sugar, I cut out masturbation, I cut out sex, I cut out coffee, I cut out pretty much everything. All the good stuff. All the good stuff. And man, I think just that alone was really helpful.

And so by the time I got to Mexico, I felt, I felt healthy. You know, my body felt good. And the other thing is the added, the added buy-in of, okay, I'm gonna work towards this. I'm gonna put in this effort to make this experience, the best experience I can get. Right. And so I think even through that month,

I was journaling every day. What do I want out of this? What do I need? So it helped me to identify what I really wanted out of the experience and my intentions moving forward into the ceremony And they kind of prepped you for this. So yeah, so I worked with an organization called Heroic Hearts And it's a it's a nonprofit that works with veterans and UFC fighters and They have an integration coach that works with you from the day you sign up

all the way through and pass the experience. Oh nice. And so, you know, right when you say yes, I'm in, they start setting up phone calls with you like weekly to talk about this is what you can expect, this is what you know, you should eat, these are the things that you should do prior to coming down.

And you went down with a bunch of fighters too, right? Yeah, so there was a combination of military veterans and UFC fighters. Oh, okay. Yeah, some warriors. All warriors, all people that are in control. Right. All people that had a lifetime of compounded trauma from childhood all the way through their, you know, through their adult life. Wow, that's a powerful group right there to get to go through this.

Absolutely, and that was another concern of mine. Am I gonna like these people? You know, and being from the special forces, I think we're a little bit more, you know, hypercritical of who we hang around and who we spend our time with. So I'm like, man, there's going to be some old veteran that's just like this crusty dude wearing a multi-cam cap. You know, wants to tell war stories. And dude, I couldn't have been more wrong. It's like stepping into the retreat center. I mean, they instantly had us do a share session

where we start sharing like what we wanted out of it. And being in tears, just listening to some of these people and how much pain they were going through and feeling right there with them, I mean, it was incredible to feel how fast we became connected through very similar experiences. Now, with all the men's group work that you've done, you know, often that it's the leadership

and the setup of the meeting that can really pull it out of people. Now, there are some people in there that are often good at expressing themselves, though fairly rare. Sure. Was it the organization that you went to and the Charmin and leaders and people

organizing that helped inspire that? Extraordinary spaceholders. Great. So extraordinary facilitators. You could tell they put a lot of time and thoughtfulness into the whole process. You know from the time we arrived at the retreat center and we're drinking like beet juice. Listen to these guys talk about why it's not blood. It's beet juice. Yeah, right. I didn't know what it was, but all the way through to the end, I was extremely impressed about how they showed up, how they cared for us, how they held the space. Everything was very thoughtful. And so I think that had a lot to do with the success of the experience.

Because I think you could probably go do it in your living room with your buddy and have an awful experience. Right. I think you could, you know, reach off that happens. It often happens. And I think we're reaching a point where we're starting to understand the severity and the helpfulness, but also the severity of psychedelics.

And they can be mistreated. They can be handled in a really inappropriate, irresponsible way. And that's when you hear about the bad trips. That's when you hear about people having these terrible, terrifying experiences is because the space isn't held. Right. Locking themselves in a closet and think they died.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a mess. Yeah, I can't imagine doing it on my own. So you get through the first day, you do the shrooms, that's kind of like the grounding one. Yeah. Is it the next night you do the ayahuasca? Yeah, and how does that whole ceremony go down? Because that fascinates me and this is the big thing that I wanted to talk to you about because Honestly, the people talk about these experiences

Erie Schaffer was recently on Rogan and talked about his experience with it and it was powerful But there's there's often a lot missing from it and I think that people Want to hear the process to get, I don't know, just a bit of confidence in the idea of it instead of it just being this overwhelmingly intense potential that people, they're not brave enough to take the step forward.

And I get it because they don't know what the hell it is. Well listen, I would say the first step to understanding these plants is to not watch any kind of YouTube video, not try to read up on it, not try to understand it from someone else's perspective because I think everything that's out there in content is like, ayahuasca, scary, like it's really intense and I think maybe that's the way that it's sold or that's the way that it's presented. But man, I couldn't have, my experience was nothing like

what I heard from other people. See, that's interesting because even, I've never done it. And I would love to try it. Like I think it's an important thing. At some point, I'll know when. like I think it's an important thing at some point I'll know when and but it's so daunting to me. Yeah and and that's one of the first things that the integration coach prior to going

down to Mexico said all right from this point on do not type Iowasca into Google like Like, like, just do what we ask of you, journal, you know, eat this way, you know, clean up your life, and you're going to have whatever experience you're supposed to have. And I think that's ultimately the best advice I could give to anyone who's seeking, who's interested. Um, I would still, that still sounds scary though. Yeah. still terrifying. And like, I even remember looking into the cup of brown, you know, earthy sludge.

Was it like a tea? How would you describe it? It's like a really thick, milky substance, almost like paste. Ooh. That's like brown. It's like you're drinking a tree. Is it what it tastes like? And so, you know, terrible protein shake.

What they do is they crush up the stalks and then they put in other plants, like the inhibitors that you talked about. And then what that's doing is preventing your body from, and your brain from like processing it. And so it sticks around a bit longer. It's what it's able to give you those visuals. It's what's able to give you that experience because we're naturally producing, you know, these chemicals in our bodies and our brains anyways. Right. So this like, it's like, you know, shutting it down to where it just kind of like gets barreled up in there for a while.

And it gives you a much bigger experience than what you're normally walking around getting. Right. How quickly did it take the kick in? So you drink this sludge. So yeah, it's probably gross. Yeah. Terrified staring at it going, what did I do?

How can I get out of this? And that was my first instinct. I mean, even after doing the mushrooms from the night before, I'm like, do this is like, from what I, my mind made up, I was like, this is gonna be horrible. And so, which is pretty reasonable, I think, at that point to think, right? In some ways.

The only thing I can relate it to is like being on a CH-47 Chinook like going after a high value target in Afghanistan and like knowing that you're gonna hit the ground and not know what's there, not know what's gonna happen to you. Like you're probably gonna die. You know, there's all these dots and being brave enough to say, listen, I came here for this, I can do this.

Come on, let's do it. And so, drink the stuff. And then you just sit in silence in the dark for about 30 minutes. And for me, I started to feel it move through my body. I felt it moved down into my chest and to my belly. It was almost like a hot feeling. It's very tingly. I could feel it in my fingertips and my toes. And there was obviously something going on physiological with me. Nothing visual yet, nothing in terms of a trip yet. And then the IOS caros,

which are the Peruvian shamans, they're specifically the Shepibo people of Peru. They've been in this lineage for maybe thousands of years where their grandfather's and their fathers and everyone has been a guide for these plants. They literally sit at the end of your bed and they sing for you and they sing these songs called ecaros and they're not words.

They're something, they're sounds that they're literally experiencing because they drink with you. So they're on, they're in it with you. So they're they're in it with you. They're in it. Wow. They're in the world, in the spirit world with you. And they're singing these songs for you. And there's this feeling of being taken care of, at least that I had was, wow, these people are willing to set up this experience, take this medicine with me and help me heal. And it's beautiful. Like the songs are beautiful. And right when they started singing.

What do they sound like? Could you maybe, I know, this is embarrassing. Yeah, I'm going to go and feel like a homie. It's like, hey, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, and they're like medicine, you know, and you're like, you can hear it. Like they're really manifesting like your experience through the tone of their song. And so sometimes they might speed it up and it becomes more intense and your experience intensifies. And sometimes it'll slow down and get really gentle. And then you're like, and it feels like you're being helped. I mean, it's, it's, I mean, you know,

I'm saying wow a lot, but like this is fascinating to me. It's like the, I mean music plays an incredible role in our lives anyway. Right. We're always like often listening to it in our cars or wherever working out. But sometimes I don't think that we realize it's important.

And when you hear something like that and you can put your mindset, that's a very vulnerable state to be in. I would imagine. I would say dancing is probably a vulnerable state to be in because you're moving your body in front of people. Sure.

But I would say like people that are experienced with dancing and that have done it and have performed in front of people and that have been confident, they're just all they're doing is allowing the music to move them. And they love it, right? And they probably don't have, they probably don't give a shit that people are staring at. It's very super free. Yeah, and so for this,

it's very similar of letting their songs impact you, and letting their songs, you know, kind of guide your experience, because you can tend to go off into your own head and do your own thing, and that doesn't really work out too well. I mean, sometimes you can't help it. You're doing this for like six, seven, eight hours.

You're in it fully. Right. But I think just knowing that like these people are here to guide and support and love you and they've done it a million times and you can just see it in their faces. They're extremely authentic and I don't think they would be doing it. I can't imagine singing for six or seven hours and there's this guy playing this harp and there's this woman dancing in the center of the circle and it's like you're being impacted by the thoughtfulness and the the sincerity of the ceremony, which really helps

contain your experience if that makes sense. Yeah. Now what kind of visions and feelings like you hear a lot about these visions and like what you're seeing and what it means to you and and how does that kind of come on and how does it take you on these narrative stories that people report? Okay, good question. So for me, the very first thing that I noticed was when I closed my eyes, there were like geometric patterns. There were shapes forming and It was moving fairly quickly and so the visuals seemingly changed so drastically within seconds

That you can never really pinpoint or identify or re you know reproduce on paper like what they were but for me it felt like being in an entirely different dimension. It felt like being in a giant kaleidoscope of colors and shapes. I saw mandalas of like bugs and birds and nature like moving about in a landscape. I saw like these, it felt like statues forming, these beautiful bronze, like almost like Egyptian looking statues and architecture. But it, it constantly changed through the entire experience. And I could open my eyes and I could, I could bring myself out of it, or I could close my eyes and the more that I relax and let go I would go deeper into these visuals. Was it like watching kind of like a movie?

Like it's you know really conscious of thinking this, it's just playing out. Yeah, I mean you're... But what I would say is you would have to remove yourself from your human experience of watching a movie. You're more in a movie. Like, you aren't even, but for me, I wasn't even a human. I was something else for that time. And for time, it felt like time was being stretched out. Almost like hundreds of years.

It wasn't just like, I know I'm in this moment and I'm here in the ceremony. It's slow time didn't exist and so I was able to think clearly like as clearly as I can think right now and I could play around I could try things on I could go oh man What if I did this in my life and it seemingly like I could see the second third order effects of what it would be like if I Apply this to my life So it would be like a thought like man What if I just like what if I just kissed my wife every morning when I woke up and then just that ripple effect of If I did that it's going to transform into

this deep relationship with her and then I could see myself as an old man like holding her hand. But it seemingly showed me the whole like timeline and then that would maybe be one second and then I'd be on to the next curiosity. And I think, I can't remember the guy that was on Rogan, but I would say he articulated it probably the best as if there was a giant screen in front of me that I could type into Google, which would be my life, or my psyche, or my brain, and I could just explore whatever I wanted to.

Wow. So it was like a playground of opportunity. Of like running scenarios. Scenarios. Effective behavior. Yeah. Were you inclined to mostly run positive ones? So could you play with anything?

It felt, I think, almost entirely positive. Okay. And I mean, there were times where I would have negative thoughts of like, oh man, this is This is what I've been doing or this is the the behavior that I've been exhibiting for you know X amount of years, but then there was like this extreme gentle Compassion that like completely washed over my body. It was like it's okay That you that that happened and you don't have to do it anymore And and I think that was probably the biggest takeaway was there was this voice and I don't know that they say that it's mother Iowaska.

You know, I never saw a physical female figure, but what I did feel or comprehend was a voice that felt very feminine and that felt very compassionate that led me through this experience and helped me to understand, you know, your trauma isn't you. Your shame isn't you. It's all temporary. And it's an illusion. And it's holding you back from all these extraordinary things things and all you have to do is let go of it because the more you think about it and the more you you know perform like that in your life you're just perpetuating but you can leave it all right here you can just leave it right here and it was so simple and there was even sarcasm like I remember there was like a voice that was like hey man your story is really cute Aaron

like yeah you're this like special forces guy green beret with this great story real cute and it was like don't take yourself to don't take yourself too seriously and the one visual that I had I think on my first journey was it felt like a big blanket. Like I could see a blanket and I could see a needle and a thread weaving the blanket. And that needle and thread was just my life. And it showed me how tiny I was in the grand scheme of things. I was able to zoom out and see this giant blanket that was maybe the universe. I don't know. I didn't pretend to try to figure out what these things were,

but the feeling and the whatever you're downloading is telling you you don't really matter that much, but you do. And all the things that you get yourself stopped up on and tripped up on life, it's all a bunch of bullshit. And it's just the natural order the things that you get yourself stopped up on and tripped up on life, it's all a bunch of bullshit. And it's just the natural order of things that you can just, if you let the natural order of things just play out, like you'll be fine. And it's so hard to, it's so hard to describe because maybe you would have an experience

that's so much different. Right. And what I think it was, if I had to guess, is that I went into a world that I had created on my own and I had prepared for through all of these, you know, the diet and the journaling that gave me the space and opportunity to explore that. So I think it's going to be whatever you do or whatever one of your listeners does. But I would say that if anybody is curious, I would just say ask yourself, are you ready? Are you ready to make a change? Are you ready? Are you ready to make a change? Are you ready to experience something that is very authentic and real?

And like, what do you want to do with it? Because I would say, for me, what I experienced was understanding that we all as humans are just manifestations of what we want. But some of us are more courageous about manifesting those great extraordinary things. Right. And so I think it gave me the courage to step further in to those things and to take it more seriously, to have a lot more self-love and compassion, which I think, well, I know boosted my confidence. I mean, I walked out of the first ceremony with my chest out and they talk about that a lot

of like your posture, how you're bringing yourself into the experience. And so you sit cross-legged with your back straight and you breathe and you bring yourself in in a dignified manner, this respecting yourself, respecting the plants, respecting the ceremony. And I felt like I walked out of there with that same stature, that same posture.

I was like, wow, man, I know what to do now. I know how, and it shows you how to do it and what to do, but it's not gonna do the work for you. And I think that might be what a lot of people want. And it's, no, it becomes harder. Like life becomes more difficult because you get to see. Now you got to clean it up. You got to clean it up.

You've seen how dirty your closet is. And you got to maintain, like the journaling. You got to maintain the healthy relationships, you gotta maintain everything that you learned in order to get benefit from it. It's not like you take them and you're just good. I would say quite the opposite. Do you think that's where the metaphors come in? Because that's one thing for sure. Like you say, everyone obviously is gonna have different experiences. But anyone I have talked to and a lot of times when I've heard people talk about this,

which to me, it's fascinating. So I always pay as much attention as I can. I like want to get these nuggets out of it, right? And these metaphors, these visual metaphors come up that are extraordinary. It's almost like if I knew these people and they didn't tell me that they did ayahuasca, but then they're just explaining life in this term of metaphors. I'd be like that motherfucker is really good at coming up with metaphors. It's almost like it gives you these freebies and then do you find yourself now that you're out of it and you're saying

this is where the work is, right, which is you either don't apply any of this stuff, go back to how it was knowing more of the truth, which is probably a shame, or you start doing that work. Exactly. You're like, I've seen the answer. Now I have to put the effort in. Do you use the metaphors? Like, are they a good guide to kind of remind you? You're like, ah, I am small because of the thread or the next one they explore.

It's like this, that's helpful. These are like tools given to you. Exactly. I think it's like what you said about language. I think it gives you a language that allows you to articulate it and the only choice that you have in that language is to use metaphors because it's so indescribable. It's so complicated.

It's so complicated. And so to come up with these metaphors, I think is the only way for me personally to understand what did happen during the experience and what I have to do to maintain this lifestyle or maintain this perspective. And so like you said, it's not that you just get this, you don't get the tools and they're always in your hand.

It's like they're in a toolbox somewhere and you got to go open it up and look and go, oh yeah, yeah, I am small. Oh yeah, you know, I do belong. I do love myself. But it gives you a space to work from. If you continue that relationship with that space and you nourish it, then it's there. And I have to take myself back there every day. I'm like, okay. And that's another interesting thing is a lot of times when I'm feeling like I'm a bit off or I'm starting to get off the path a bit, I'll go listen to the ecaros.

I have a recording of the woman who's saying for us. And just that alone of listening to her sing launches me back into those experiences. Not that I'm seeing visuals, but I'm feeling whatever I felt in those ceremonies. It's like a constant reminder. I think like sound, taste, touch, all that's linked really closely to memory. And whatever those songs are doing for me are reminding me of what I learned. And it's not like they roll out a book or a text or show you a you know a PowerPoint presentation. It's in a language that's not real and

you're interpreting it like you said in these metaphors and so just being able to be reminded of that somehow. And that's like I think we've kind of screwed up ceremony in ritual. Whereas a lot of people, at least I believed only the hippie type spiritual people with crystals are throwing this stuff out. But like just for the retreat, they had you bring like a bag of items that are meaningful to you, the whole energy. and having a key that my wife gave me, and said, this is the key to my heart, and just having that, I carry it around with me, and I'll feel it in my pocket,

and I'll instantly go back into the ceremony, and go, oh yeah, I remember what I learned about how I should be with my wife, and what really matters. Oh yeah, I remember this little marble that I hold in my other pocket a lot of times that my son gave me and reminds me to let go and play and enjoy time with him and knowing that time is, you know, time is, we're on borrowed time.

And that is for sure. And that just right now is what matters. Like being present and being just being right there with whoever you're with or whatever experience you're with. It's just a constant reminder. So I don't think you need to do IOSCA constantly. I think you just need to, or for me, I need to hold on to those experiences through these items or through these Objects that kind of can transport you back to that memory and those metaphors. Yeah. Now how would you so they you do it once Want with the benefits of doing multiple days of it and how did that change the experience?

Good question. So it was basically like an arc of a storyline of like, okay, you know, the first night was the first night for me was okay, wow, this is nothing that I expected and here's this the space that I can explore and I think the for the first couple hours I was just smiling because I was Recognizing that it wasn't anything to be absolutely terrified for. The feeling I had was amazing. I felt clean, I felt vibrant, I felt like everything I touched was, it just felt amazing.

And so I kind of just was exploring that for most of the time. I got up and walked around the jungle and looked at forogs and plants, put my you know my face in the water and so a lot of the first night was just the exploration and knowing okay here's this giant like colosseum that I can be in and perform and explore and open up all these doors to parts of my life. And the second night for me was actually a bit more of a somber, serious ceremony where I went back, all the way back into my childhood. And I started opening up these doors of sadness, of recognizing the first time that I felt,

like I didn't belong, that I was, you know, maybe made fun of. I remember feeling like, you know, these kids didn't wanna play with me. And I was really there. It transported me back in time, where I was literally in, like, I don't know, kindergarten, and I felt this feeling of like, wow, these kids don't like me, and they don't wanna play with me. And then so that went into like, wow, these kids don't like me. And they don't want to play with me.

And then so that went into like something that you didn't realize you were carrying with you. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Let's explore. Yeah, it was like, look, Aaron, like this happened. And you felt these things. And it was so long ago. But what does that mean to you now? How does it feel to be rejected? How does it feel to be nonauthentic? And how does it feel to be sad and to know, wow, like every human being probably,

and for me, I felt sadness and I felt compassion for myself, but I also felt sadness and compassion for those kids who were rejecting me. And so it was a very transpersonal experience, which was beautiful because every experience after that throughout that same evening was exploring rejection, was exploring sadness, was exploring. And I came out and it felt really heavy, but it felt like I did a lot of work.

It felt like I just came out of a massive crossfit workout. I was exhausted at that. A huge cleansing. Yeah, and like, as it, you know, the first experience I felt euphoric and happy and relieved and, you know, just like blown away by whatever I had just experienced. And then the second night was, all right, it's time to get serious. And then the third night, I think I just explored

opportunity. I went in with it, and I think I just explored opportunity. I went in with the, and I think that's what happens is you go in with an intention, and that's what you get. That's what you get out of it is whatever you bring into it. And so I brought in intention for opportunity and creation, you know, creativity and expression. How can I express myself as a human being and like give my true heart and purpose, like put it out on the line, have people see it, feel really good about it.

And then coming up with ideas of like, wow, I can really impact, I can impact society, I can impact myself, I can, I figure out ways to monetize things. I figured I learned how to save money. Like, there were so many things and that's one big thing that I think is pretty universal is just the understanding of how minimal the material world is. And I got that big time on my third experience. And so anyway, each night had a different theme to it. And on the very last night, I had felt raw.

I felt like my heart had been ripped out of my chest and tenderized. And everything was really intense. Every conversation I had just even walking out into the you know there was this big giant corridor with a lagoon and you know a courtyard with all this art. I mean I felt overwhelmed just to be alive and so going into the fourth ceremony I was like dude I've got everything I came for. I can't imagine getting anything additional or at least able to integrate. Then now just your body's not to feel worn out.

Like, I, you're not, no, you're raining. It's weird because you're not eating very much. You're getting like a couple vegetables or some like, you know, black bean, you know, sauce in the morning. You're just not hungry. And you're just not that hungry. Okay. And you're going through

the ceremony for the whole night. You get done with it around 7 a.m. and then you go back and sleep for maybe two hours. And then you're up for breakfast and they have a group sharing. And then from there, you're so stimulated and so connected to the other people that are there at the retreat, and the retreat center, that you, for me, and I think most people were like this, is that we just didn't sleep. And so your body's wearing down, but you really don't have a desire to rest. Wow.

And for me, I journaled for probably five, six hours each day. I even journaled in my, I took my journal into the building, probably five, six hours each day. I even journaled in my... That was sure. I took my journal into the building and when I did my ceremony. Like I was journaling as I was in my trip on I'm wascan. Wow. And I didn't know what I was writing

and I read it to my wife and she was like, wow, that actually makes a lot of sense. And I still go back and read those things. That's fascinating. But anyway, when you read it though, does it sound like you? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. You almost don't remember it. No, I just remember going to the bathroom with my headlamp and going, I've got to remember this. Why? I've got to write this down. All right.

All right, so you get through, you get through the fourth one, right? And how would you describe the fourth one? So the fourth one was interesting because I had made the decision early on in the day that I was going to go into the ceremonial space and I was going to sit down and decide if I was going to drink or not, if I was going to take the medicine. Because I had been conflicted, I thought, you know, I've got everything I need. I feel saturated. And how am I gonna remember everything that I've experienced?

And how am I gonna integrate it? And it just felt so overwhelming that I didn't think that I could do another ceremony. And the shamans were walking around and I brought the one guy over and I said, hey man, I said, I'm feeling like I want to be involved, but I don't want to take a full cup. And he said, well, just do a quarter cup and just say goodbye and like thank the medicine. And so I did that. And I only took a quarter of the of the medicine that night. And so I did that and I only took a quarter of the medicine that night and I had the most The most intense experience of the whole retreat. What what's from a quarter from the quarter? And what do you think that was all about?

I think it was because I was so opened up that I just allowed myself to experience the medicine in a whole different way I had formed a really tight relationship with the medicine. I knew what it could do, I knew what it was capable of, and I knew how to let go. Because I think the first couple nights, you know, you're letting go, but then you're kind of retracting and coming back and recoiling. Maybe holding on a little bit. Yeah, holding on a little bit. And by the fourth night, like you said, I was exhausted, I was open, I was connected. And so it all just flooded in instantly

after that quarter cup. And I came in the next day and shared my experience and the one shaman said, small dose does not equal small experience. Wow. The dosage and the amount that you take has nothing to do with the potency of the medicine. It's how you take it.

It's how you accept it. It's how you open yourself up to it. And I totally believe that. And it was a beautiful experience. I mean, it was full spectrum. It was like a combination of the others in that sense. Yeah, I felt like a combination and it felt like an Incap of like hey, yeah, you know like look at all this stuff that you learned and experienced and like This is what you can do to go integrate it like this is what will happen if you do integrate it

You know, you're gonna live a more fulfilling life. You're gonna have an extraordinary career. You're gonna build amazing relationships. And I think for the last night, I just, along with the visuals, felt all the validation. I felt proud of myself for going through with it. And I mean, I felt proud of all the people

and I felt connected to everyone that was there, that was brave enough To like sit and and take this stuff because it's really confronting and really scary But it can also be really really beautiful and I think every single person had an amazing experience from what I saw Do you feel you have like a Responsibility now to you and everyone around like you've been shown this and you're like I have to do this work now. I have to integrate this into my life and... Oh completely. Work in that direction. Totally. Nice.

And that's why I feel obligated to share this in a public forum. Well I'm glad you did. I've been bugging you about this for a while now. Yeah, and I think I actually have more of a handle on articulating it now that I've integrated it more. I think coming out of the experience, you may not have been able to grasp. I was wondering that. I was wondering if we did this right away.

I wonder if you would be able to articulate this in the same way, but I was worried that you would forget it. That's why I wanted to capture it, but I think the longer we waited and as we continue to talk about it here and there, I'm like, this might be a better way of doing it. I think so. Because it's more solidified.

And it's like, you're at least at what it sounds like. Well, and when you first come out of it, even for the first couple of weeks, you're not fully back into the material world yet. Like for me, I felt very separate from society, very separate from like my household, very separate from a lot of things because of the awareness and the sensitivity that you gain from taking the medicine. And so I think like sharing sometimes would be difficult

and like saying things that would be like unbelievable and people kind of looking at you like, whoa, like what do you mean by that? And it was my experience and it was very real for me, but I think now that I've had some time to integrate it to journal about it and ground it, then like you said, the metaphors and the language comes afterwards.

I mean, and there's still things that, you know, I'll wake up one morning and I'll go, oh man, this is what that meant. And so I'm still learning from the experience. It's not, it doesn't end when you leave the retreat center. It's still coming in. It's, yeah, it's still doing its work. And when were you attacked by the crocodile?

Oh my God. So I was not under the influence of any kind of plant medicine when this happened, but at the end of the retreat, yeah. At the end of the retreat, I just walked down to this beach and I wanted to just sit and watch the sunset and just kind of connect. I was having a real hard time being around people. Everyone from the retreat center wanted to just sit and watch the sunset and just kind of connect. I was having a real hard time being around people.

Everyone from the retreat center wanted to gather and eat dinner together and hang out, but I felt so sensitive that I just wanted to kind of be on my own. And so I walked, I was walking around this inlet of water and I was looking to find my way into onto like the water's edge, but all these res way into the water's edge, but all these resorts own the water's edge. And so they have these big walls and barriers and gates up. And so it was really hard for me, and I walked for a while and couldn't find any place.

And then eventually I found like a hole in the fence where like some bumps had like, broken in and found a place to live. And so I started walking back through there and there was tents and trash. And I finally found my way to this tree. And I sat under this palm tree and I just started to kind of connect and meditate and watch this unset. And I noticed this large, you know, object coming towards me in the water.

And before I could even react, this is probably 10 or 12 foot crocodile just came out of the water directly at me and I mean I literally like Jumped up and took off running tripped and fell over a bunch of plants scraped up my leg got some sort of poison plant all over me and Got an Uber went back to the hotel and just said, all right, dude, you don't belong in society yet. It's time to take a nap and eat some crackers or something. But yeah, it was really intense, but it was, yeah, it was real.

Yeah, that's no way to end. I mean, it is a way, but like losing your leg at the end of an eye was get tripped to a crocodile is not the way to go. I don't think people are gonna wanna do it after that. No. That is wild, wild ending. Well, I'll tell you what, man,

I mean, since I've been here in Boseman, like we connected, it took us a few months after I got here last September and like, you know, you, we've all had a lot going on with COVID. Like there was just no denying that it's had a massive effect on everybody. And, and you had a lot to deal with in this last year and seeing you after the retreat and like seeing you before and it's like there was there is a change it's not one of those corny things that people say you're you're standing different like you said standing up more straight it's like it's like the best parts of the Aaron I always knew and I'm seeing it a lot more. And it's a beautiful thing.

Thank you. Especially when I get to hear this story, and it's like, I have a lot of hope for it. I want it to go well. You know, in the future, I want to try it. I want this to actually be really beneficial for people rather than just this escape into madness for a few hours that really has no beneficial effect.

It's like, what's the point of articulating this story. But to see some great growth in a friend of mine, a brother, someone I love, it's just it's great man. That's really validating and refreshing to hear that the work that I've put in is noticeable and I've just appreciated, you know, having you here in Bozeman and being able to shoot Boz and connect and have more of a... And lose arrows. Lose arrows, yeah.

We need a better backstop or just become better. Or just get better, yeah, it's getting expensive. But real quick to your point, I had a buddy that went and did ayahuasca and he didn't do any of the intention stuff. He didn't journal, he didn't diet. He honestly said he went into it wanting to see the fireworks and it gave him nothing. And so he said, wow, that the feeling that I had was that I was this child expecting this like grandiose experience and it was like no you're not getting anything and so I think it's

just up to you really and what you want to put into it what do you want to get out of it and the work that you put in prior to during it and after it. It sounds like doing it the right way is a big part of this. With the right people, with the right intentions and take that shit seriously. It might be 90% of it. It might be. That's really interesting that it goes that way. But I'm glad that it was this experience for you.

You got to learn it this way with the people that you did it with. This is an important message and this is why I wanted to bring this to the pod, so other people that are maybe curious on the fence, like probably where I am. And, you know, it, there's just not enough out there. Like you said, it's a scary sounding thing. Well, and there's a lot of people out there doing it. And so I feel obligated and I have no connection or no financial gain from this, but the folks at Arcana, ARK, ANA did a tremendous job, very thoughtful, very experienced. And if you want someone that's

going to take you on a safe, special journey, You're in really good hands with them. And this was down in Mexico. And they do retreats in Mexico and down in South America. Oh, okay. And so they have multiple retreat centers. I think the same guy owns it. And so I've heard nothing but good things about all their locations. Yeah.

Nice. Nice, man. Well, there you go, guys. And thank you for joining in and listening. Yeah, nice nice man. Well, there you go guys and Thank you for joining in and listening. It's a longer podcast today, but this was this is a message We couldn't crush into 40 minutes. I know you want to rush it and Aaron thank you for coming over. Thanks for having me on dude. I love you brother. Love you too. Awesome proud of you All right, thanks guys.