Jordan, Jesse, GO! - Jordan Morris with Aaron Carnes (In Defense of Ska) at Wild Sisters Bookstore in Sacramento

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

On this bonus episode, Jordan Morris chats with In Defense of Ska’s Aaron Carnes at Wild Sisters Bookstore in Sacramento promoting his new graphic novel, Youth Group.Get your copy of Youth Group from Wild Sisters Bookstore.Pre-order your copy of the Expanded Edition of In Defense of Ska.Listen to the In Defense of Ska podcast.Follow Aaron Carnes.Check out Wild Sisters Bookstore.

Hey gang, this is Jordan here with a special bonus treat for you. The following is audio from a live book talk I gave about Youth Group, the new YA horror-comedy graphic novel for B and artist Bowen McCurdy. Leading the discussion is the author and podcaster Erin Carnes of the In Defense of Ska podcast. Our host for the evening, we're the great indie bookstore Wild Sisters in beautiful Sacramento, California. We're going to drop two links in the show notes. One is to purchase Youth Group from Wild Sisters. I left them with a bunch of signed copies, so if you act fast, you might be able to get your hands on one. The second link is a link to pre-order the second edition of Aaron's book, In Defense of Ska.

It drops on 1029 and is a fun and fascinating deep dive into the world of ska music. Thank you to Aaron, Wild Sisters, and everyone who came out to this event. Enjoy. Give a little time for the child within you. Don't be afraid to be young and free. Undo the locks and throw away the keys

and take off your shoes and socks and run you. Today we have Jordan Morris. We are going to discuss his new book, Youth Group, but also in addition to Youth Group, let's talk about you are the co-host of the Jordan Jesse Goh podcast. Right. Which, yes, an early podcast. What year did Jordan Jesse Goh podcast. Right. Which, yes. An early podcast. What year did Jordan Jesse Goh start? 1983.

1983. It was the first podcast and it aired on radio. No, Jordan Jesse Goh has been around for about 17 years now, so yes. And see, you are a writer, you work on various TV shows and you have written one other book. And one other graphic novel, Bubble. Bubble, yes.

Also for a second I wrote that with a great writer named Sarah Morgan, great artist named Tony Cliff, and Youth Group is my follow-up to that with the artist Bowen McGurdy. Can we just have a hand on mic for Bowen McGurdy? If you haven't read the book, you will see Drew the hell out of it. So, yeah, should we sit in these?

Sit down. Yeah. And if you are not convinced yet to purchase a copy of Bubble online, you should know that there is a cameo by Peanut, the bassist of 311. Yes. Very important. I'll also I'll I'll intro you as well. This is this is Aaron Carnes. He wrote the book In In Defense of Ska, a, a history of the genre and hosts the In Defense of Ska podcast, which is a great,

great podcast for, for Ska and general music fans alike. Yes. So. Oh, I forgot to say a really important part of his biography is he's been on the In Defense of Ska podcast twice. My greatest credit. Yes. Very important. It's why people stop me on the street. Yes.

Okay. So this is where I want to begin with. So youth group, I think people maybe, well, let's kind of, let's explain it very, very, very generally, because I want to dive into, we'll get to more detail about the book. But the book is about a youth group. It takes place in the 90s, and a character discovers that they're actually demon hunters. Yes. So yes, premise of youth group, that's it. I was part of a very goofy Bible study, much like the one in the book. We sang parody songs, we made abstinence charts to help us if we felt temptation. And yeah, a lot of the cringier details in the book actually happened to me.

We did not do any exorcisms. I have never pulled a demon out of anything. People were hoping for an exorcism tutorial. I'm sorry. But yeah, but the general setup was something that I did as a kid and I always just kind of wanted to write about it. I always just thought it was a funny, weird, emotionally loaded, special little world. And yeah, I always kind of wanted to write about it. And then kind of had the idea to mash in a little religious horror with it. It seemed to fit. So

yeah, that was kind of the germ of the idea of Youth Group. So let's begin with the Youth Group song parody portion of the book. Throughout this book, there are clips of the Youth Group and they're singing parody songs that have been turned into Jesus songs. Yes, something we actually did. We didn't use the word cringe back then. It was very cringe. I made a list of the actual songs and then you can tell everybody the parody version of it. Okay. Okay. Escape the Pina Colada song by Rupert Holmes.

Oh, so I think we do actually do that one straight. Okay, that one's straight. Yeah, the pastor who wears a Hawaiian shirt plays the pina colada song, but explains how it's a metaphor for finding your old lady Jesus who was there the whole time. They were the ones in the bar that night. But yeah, so we do that one straight. Not technically a parody. No, no, no.

More of a cover. Sure. Reinterpolation. Yeah. The sign by Ace of Base. I saw the sign is I saw the Christ in the book. I saw the Christ. By the way, Ace of Base, you do not have to change a lot for them to sound religious. It was almost when I was listening to Ace of Base to do the parody, I was always like, wait, are they a Christian band anyway? Anyway, they're a weird band.

Are you familiar with the conspiracy theory that they're actually a Nazi band? No. Oh my. Well, there's something free to YouTube tonight. Oh cool. That sounds like a fun hole to go down. I'll cease with the Elden Ring lore videos and watch these space truther videos. Flood by Jars of Clay.

Oh, so Flood by Jars of Clay is in there as is. They're a Christian band, right? So they are. Jars of... Does anybody remember Jars of Clay? A lot of nods and some eh from the audience. Jars of Clay were like an alternative rock band. I'm saying this for the podcast listeners, because you all clearly know who they are. They were an alternative rock band who was Christian, but would sometimes leave it out of the lyrics. So like you could get away

with playing them on secular radio. And like Christian kids were always like, yeah, I know this cool band. Let's crank it up. And then you would kind of clue into it later. But yeah, Jars of Clay, they were sneaky. Lovita Loca by Ricky Martin. Livin' Lovita Jesus, I believe. One of my lazier attempts. But here's the thing, they were all lazy. They were actually lazy in reality. So I think that makes it, I think that makes it okay. That makes sense. Weird Al would not accept this, but your church, absolutely. Weird Al would go like, oh, come on. If you want to be my lover by Spice Girls. Oh, I think it's, if you want to be my lover, you got to get with my Lord Christ.

Yeah, I think so. It's been a little minutes since I read this. Two Princes by Spin Doctors. Oh, I don't know. What do we do to that? Is that in there? It's in there. It's in there. I write very drunk. I think it was one king instead of two princes. It is. It's one king. Yes, you're right. Thank you. That's a good joke. I forgot about that. That's funny. And then finally we have Walking on the Sun.

Walking on the Sun by Smash Mouth. It's just re-spelled S-O-N, walking on the sun, S-O-N. So yeah. Clever. Right, great. So Christian parody song. So if you're not already sold, I think we just sold all the copies right there. Right. So this book, okay, I want you to tell everybody a little bit more about the initial inspiration. I know that you were, I think at a coffee shop, right? And you saw something that kind of sparked this idea.

Oh, yeah. So this was a YouTube video I saw, speaking of rabbit holes. But I saw a YouTube video when I was kind of noodling on the idea of this book of like, just very normal looking, normie suburban looking kids doing an exorcism at a Starbucks. And it's just someone's cell phone video and they're on a patio, they're not in the Starbucks,

they're next to the Starbucks. And they're just like chanting Latin over their friend who is going crazy and probably actually needs some mental health care and not not chanting. But yeah, then that kind of like sparked the idea of like, oh, I guess people still do these and probably were doing them back then when I was a kid. So that was kind of what what helped me to to layer the religious horror onto my own weird experience, which was not weird in that way. You had more of a fun youth group, right?

Your childhood was more the like, let's all get together and have some fun in games, and we'll talk about Jesus while we're in the middle of games. Yeah, it was fun and light. When I look back, there was some stuff that I, the youth pastor had some bad takes that I realize were bad takes now, but I think everybody for the most part was nice and positive. And so I didn't want to make outright villains of these characters, right? Because I

got a lot from it. I got a lot of positive things and there was some good community and stuff like that. So when I look back on it, it is a mixed memory and some of it is good and some of it is bad. So yeah, so I kind of wanted to get that across in the book. But yeah, you know, we did campouts. They do a lock, they do a lock-in where you like, you know, they put you in the church for the night and they like play all the back to the future movies. And isn't Marty kind of a Christ figure

when you think about it? Isn't Marty McFly kind of a... There was a lock-in scene in an original draft that didn't make it into the book, because I'm like, oh, that's kind of a horror thing. What if you were locked in with something? And that had to go. But yeah, maybe if we do another one,

maybe we'll do a lock-in scene. So yeah, but that was part of the DNA of it in the pitch. And so the church is Stone Mission Church and that's actually the church you went to? I think the church I did most of my youth grouping at was called Mission Hills. Oh, okay. I just kind of like just used, I don't really know where Stone Mission came from. Okay. Just kind of a random name that maybe I should have improved upon, but just left the placeholder. It's weird sometimes you read something back and you're like, oh, I meant to change that.

Mission's fine though. There's a frame in the book where you see like a hallway and it says the underground. So that was actually a part of your church, right? Literally my youth group was called The Underground and it was written on the wall in fake graffiti, like what they thought graffiti looked like. So it was like very nice and clearly like done by a mom with stencils. But yeah, there is a frame in the book

where you can see it. You can see the bad graffiti saying The Underground. So yeah, that's a direct one-to-one from my childhood. Interesting, yeah. So the book also takes place in the 90s. And it says just the 90s. Yeah. No specific year.

Yeah. Obviously, this is your childhood, the 90s. Do you feel like it was important that it was set in this sort of world? Yeah, so in the pitch for the book, it was not set in the 90s. To sell the book to First Second, my beautiful publisher, I did kind of a pitch for the book, it was not set in the 90s. To sell the book to First Second, my beautiful publisher, I did kind of a pitch for the book and some inaugural pages.

And that stuff was all set in modern day. There was cell phones. There was internet. There was modern stuff. And my editor, Kalista Brill, over there, who made this book a book, said, hey, I like this. I think it's a good idea. Think about setting it in the 90s. And I think what she was like, she was getting at a couple things. One, just like period stuff's fun. It's fun to remember the 90s, bucket hats, wallet

chains. How dumb, right? Remember that dumb stuff? So maybe bucket hats are kind of cool though. Bucket hats are back, right? Bucketheads are back. So there's that fun. And then there's also like some storytelling stuff, right? Like cell phones ruin horror. It's a cliche because it's true. Oh boy, every horror movie is just ruined by cell phones

because you're like, why aren't they just calling for help? Anyway, that's why there's so many of those scenes where they're like, the phone's dead. There's no service out here. And it's like, come on, use a hotspot, right? So obviously you take that stuff out of the equation and you can just have more of a mystery or more of an adventure. But also, I think she saw that I was putting a lot of personal details in here.

From the name of the church to the dumb parody songs, she could tell that, oh, this kid like, or this guy, I was an adult when I pitched this book, this guy kind of lived this. And I think when I kind of rewrote it to be in the 90s, when I rewrote my initial stuff and then wrote the rest of the book in the 90s, I included more personal details. And so when I read this back, it is kind of a, not a memoir, but it's as close as I'll

ever do. It is kind of like a sneaky, weird sub-memoir just because I just put a ton of personal details in it. Like there's the family in the book is going through stuff my family was going through. So yeah, and I think that's kind of what the 90s setting help bring into it more than just like wallet chain jokes, which are great. But something else came of it too, and I think that's a reason that Calista is a great editor. Oh boy, editor is important. They can really help a book. And a lot of... Yeah, I've got a lot of great stuff in this book from the editors that worked on it. And then, so there's also the characters,

there's a drama kid aspect to the characters. Is that also pulled from your life? You'll be shocked to know. Shocked to know that I was a drama club kid as well. Yeah, so our main character, Kay, she is a little gothy, she's a little spooky, she does not want to be at youth group. There was always that kid, there was always that kid at church who they smelled like clove cigarettes, they rolled their eyes at everything, they did not want to be there. And so I'm like, oh, wouldn't be great if that kid was the main character of this, right? Like what if this is the main character? And so I was just kind of like thinking about what that kid did in my high school, right? They did theater tech. They didn't act. They hung the lights. They did the sound. Maybe they played

bassoon in the orchestra. Yeah, so like our main character is like a theater tech kid and she has a crush on the most annoying actor kid. So yeah. Which kid were you? Annoying actor kid. Annoying actor kid. Next question. I really like, so I feel like as a writer, you're really drawn to making characters that have exaggerated

personalities that are either really silly or pretentious or kind of use funny slang word. I'm kind of curious about your approach to writing characters in general. Yeah. I mean, I think when I'm writing for myself, I just like to start with people I know. I think when I'm just making characters for something, I just think of like a funny weirdo that I knew and start there. It's like, oh, look at, you know, that's, there are people in my life who are funny and weird. What if they were in a life or death situation? And like, as you write, I guess you continue to write

something, especially something this long. I mean, it's not a huge book, but it's long for a comic. So like something this long, like that character is going to become someone else as you write. Like they're gonna do their own thing, they're gonna surprise you, they kind of won't do some stuff that you maybe thought they would do in the beginning. So, you know, these aren't like one-to-one,

here's who I grew up with, but they started there. They started as one of those people and then as I wrote, they became their own person. But I think I would say that's a good piece of advice for someone who's a little blocked on how to start a character. Just like think of a funny weirdo you know. So yeah, so I guess that's kind of masking. You're thinking about like maybe an eccentric aspect of a person you know, and you kind of build from there. Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it, of just like, who's someone I know who, you know, has a funny, a few funny distinct things,

and you can kind of like, yeah, that's a good like framework for something, I think. So I want to ask a little bit about the world that this book is set in. So it's horror, I guess you could say horror comedy. So there's monsters, there's distinct rules about how it works in terms of how to kill them and what they operate off of. So how did you like come up with that? Was that a slow process of building and, and mapping

out the world itself or did it come through the process of writing to see what kind of worked in terms of telling the story? So interesting, so I was, when I was putting in the like rules of the world stuff, I thought about Bubble, the last book a lot because like Bubble, it's a sci-fi comedy and it is kind of set in this sci-fi world where people live in bubble cities and they fight mutants and stuff like that. And like Bubble doesn't like hold your hand, right? Like Bubble just starts and like, you know, and I think sometimes, you know, when I was talking about Bubble in like interviews and stuff like that, people would say like, how do they breathe? How do they breathe in the bubble?

It's like, I don't know. How do they get food? I'm like, I don't know. Why would that, people would say like, how do they breathe? How do they breathe in the bubble? It's like, I don't know. How do they get food? I'm like, I don't know. Why would I? Why would I know that? So I think I. You know. And I just like, as an exercise for myself, I'm like, I'm going to try

and explain everything in this. And I like took some of it out because obviously like explanation stuff is boring sometimes, you know, I mean, some people like it. Some people like to read those those Lord of the Rings appendices books where you talk about how every song was written. Not my cup of tea. God bless you if you do. But so yeah, so I think I really thought

about the rules of the world in a way that I haven't with any of my personal writing. So yeah, and I think I wanted it to be a mix of like stuff you know from religious horror, like The Exorcist and stuff like that, but also like some stuff that was surprising and weird and new. So I think there are some like,

you'll recognize some religious horror stuff in this. And I hope if you read it, like there's some new weird stuff that you're like, oh, I have not seen that before. So yeah, I know that's a little bit vague. I don't wanna some new weird stuff that you're like, oh, I have not seen that before. So yeah, I know that's a little bit vague. I don't want to spoil weird stuff that is fun. I hope it is a mix of like, I like these kinds of stories, but also here's something kind of new. **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, I mean, I love books or stories that are, I guess you can call them world behind the world sort of stories

where it's like it's our world, it's a normal world, but then really there's a secret world behind this world. And so you have a character that's discovering this world along with you, the reader. And so through that, you get to explain the world because the character has to learn about the world too. And I think you did that really effectively. Yeah, thanks. And yeah, and Kay, the character I mentioned, the kind of gothy theater tech kid is like,

yeah, she does not know that there are demons and monsters and possessions. So yeah, she kind of gets thrown into this world and people have to explain stuff to her as it goes. So yeah, whereas, you know, Bubble doesn't, everybody kind of knows what's going on in Bubble all the time. Yeah. So yeah, I thought it'd be interesting to have that character who's the audience surrogate

a little bit. And yeah, it was a fun way to write. And I think she's neat and like, is a fun way to lead you through the kind of weird stuff that's going on. Now you already explained sort of your initial genesis of the idea, but your process as a writer, do you really focus on developing the characters first

and then build the story around that? Or do you really try to like map out this world and the story that you hope to tell and then kind of work through that with the characters? Yeah. I like characters more than I like plot. No shit says everyone who's read anything I've ever wrote. Yeah, plotting doesn't come as naturally to me. I don't know. It's just not kind of the stuff I'm interested in. I know things need to have plots and I like to try and I want to get better at plot. But yeah, I feel like I think it's just a lot about funny characters and funny situations and kind of like, what does this say about the real world kind of stuff?

I kind of like to think about that stuff more than I like to think like the third act twist and saving the cat at the top. I say that dismissively, that stuff's important. And I know that I tried to do a good job with this and want to get better at it. But yeah, I think for me personally, I do think of the characters and the situations and the satire elements first. Now I'm curious about the process of making the story into a graphic novel. You worked with an artist. What was your artist's name? Yeah, this is Bowen McGurdy. Bowen McGurdy does some great work. If you know

the Spectre in Spectre's books, that's all Bowen. And yeah, we were matched up by the publisher and I'm still super stoked that that happened. Did you write the script in its entirety or did you begin it and kind of how did they write some of the art and or did you begin it and then they write some of the art and then go back and forth? Yeah. So how that happened is I wrote, I probably did write half the script before I knew who the artist was going to be. And then, yeah, maybe like a month and a half into me writing, Calista said, we're going

to start the artist search. Here's the first person I want you to look at. It's Bowen McGurdy and sent me all Bowen stuff. And I just kind of said, we can stop the search if you, if we can get Bowen to do this, let's, this is who we should use. And and yeah, I'm super lucky that Bowen said yes. And then, you know, I, I, there's a, there's a good book about comics writing called Words for Pictures by Brian Michael Bendis.

And he suggests the writer being very deferential to the artist. Like, you know, at a certain point it's their show. So like, write things they like to draw, don't write things they don't like to draw. And like let them, you know, he doesn't say let them cook because that's a meme from six months ago, but like basically he's saying And so yeah, I tried to do that I tried to like write this stuff that I haven't hadn't finished with Bowen style in mind and then go back and rewrite the stuff that I had written do kind of a Bowen pass on it the work that they do is So so much more

than the work the writer does. So you want it to be fun for them. You want them to be able to show off. So yeah, I hope I did that. I tried to. At the end of the book, in the part where you're saying your thank yous and stuff, you thank Bowen for making 90s fashion look cool.

And I think Bowen's younger, right? So Bowen didn't grow up in the 90s? No. Bowen is very annoyingly 27. And I had to explain stuff. So yeah, there's a little spread in the back that's from a yearbook. And the publisher thought it'd be

funny if Bowen and I both included our 90s photos in there. So there's one of me in high school with a wallet chained down to my knees, flip-flops, save Ferris T-shirt, and then Bowen's is just a baby. So yeah, I had to be like, okay, bucket hats, giant pants. And so one of the things that Bowen, one of the things that Bowen asked for Yeah, I had to be like, okay, bucket hats, giant pants.

And so one of the things that Bowen asked for before we started writing is like, make me a music playlist for every character. Make me a like, it's great. I'm stealing it, you should steal it for your writing. It's great. Yeah, and it was really fun to do. Like, so Kay, she's the gothy one.

So like, Nine-Ish Nails, Stone Temple Pilots, Tool, Deaf Tones, that stuff. Theater Tech Kid music. And then Cortland, who's the kind of like, he's a SoCal, he's a stoner dude, cargo shorts. So like, 311, Sublime, Smash Mouth. And then Meg is kind of like, she's Peppy. She like has a little bit of a cheerleader energy

kind of Elle Woods. So her stuff is like Hanson, Spice Girls, all that stuff. And so yeah, so I think, you know, that was fun because it helped us kind of like solidify the characters. But also I made the playlist on YouTube so we could just see all that fashion. And I'm like, here, here.

And then later in the book, we have some Wiccan characters and I just said, watch the craft. I'm like, have you seen the craft? Do that. A foundational text. So yeah, yeah, it was kind of like fun to kind of walk someone through the 90s and some of the weirder parts of it. Now this book, you had said earlier in this conversation that a lot of your personal life got put into this book.

Was that something that you intended to, was that something that you just felt started to come out as you were doing this project? Yeah, it was not intentional and that's something I realized until I read it back. So there's a lot of steps to comics. You write the script and then you get something, it's called the pencils and it's a very rough sketchy sketch version of what the book is going to look like.

And then you have to read, it's called the inks and it's that with a little more detail and then the colors and then you read it 10 more times. You just have to read it so much. Yeah, when I read that first draft back of the pencils I'm like oh yeah this is pretty personal like it was it was unintentional like I don't you know I most of the writing I do is very mercenary it's very just like I need to keep my health insurance you know and it's it's I don't you know I don't intentionally look for places to like insert myself into

things, right? Because much of the time that's inappropriate. But you know, this is more of a like from the heart project. So I, you know, it felt like it fit. And yeah, it was, I don't know, it was surprising. I don't like think about how to like tell my own story that much, but it's kind of interesting that this like weirdly is in a way.

I think like one of the interesting things about the book, some of the themes that emerged to me as I was reading it was, well, the first theme kind of in the front of the book is really this idea about community. There's a cost to community, right? Because Kay, her mom wants her to go to youth group not because she feels like the dogma is something that's important for her to learn about. She wants her daughter to have a community, right? And the mom seems like she's kind of a little wishy-washy about what she thinks about church ideology. And you kind of hint at that a bit with the main

church leader that maybe some of his views aren't great. So it feels like you're discussing a little bit the compromise that you get in any sort of community situation where you get something through this group of people, but you might have to deal with aspects of it that aren't great. Yeah, I mean, I think that like, when you see religious people in media, like a lot of them are Ned Flanders, right?

Like just believes, and I love Ned Flanders. I think Ned Flanders is one of the funniest characters ever, but like, you know, he just, for most of the time, just believes it 100%. And like, I think when you go to church, you do realize that, oh, some people believe some of this and not all of it. And I think probably everybody, like everyone is like,

eh, I like this, I don't like this. And I think for some people just like, and it depends on what community you live in, but just the community is super important. And I just want my kid to be in a positive world with other kids. And so yeah, so I think that I tried to have characters who that was kind of how they felt about it. it was like I don't know if I believe all of this but I do like some parts of it and Yeah, I mean, I you know and I think the book At the end kind of says like make your own community, you know

You don't have to just go with this pre-established one that's here that maybe you don't agree with but you can make your own Of the people who you you know who you connect with anyway so I think that's kind of like't agree with, but you can make your own of the people who you connect with. Anyway, so I think that's kind of like where it lands, but yeah, I kind of wanted the characters to have like a variety of feelings about what they were doing. Yeah, so you definitely showed that upfront that they were getting something out of it, even if there was some issues about it. The second half, like you kind of addressed this already, you start to show that the characters don't feel like they need to follow what the main leader is saying in terms of ideology.

And there's sort of a, it feels like there's a commentary about people saying, like, you know, people, religions of the world, you don't have to be enemies, you can be allies. Yeah, I think that's always something that like, bugged me as a kid when I was going, right? Like how religious people like, make snarky remarks about other religious people who aren't exactly like them. Like, yeah, think that I wanted to critique that and have some young characters fight against that idea. So yeah, I think that was the idea. I didn't

like that then, don't like that now, and just wanted to have a... Just to critique that a little bit and show people show like people getting together because there are some things we all agree on regardless of religion, like not getting killed. We can all agree on that, right? So I kind of wanted people to like, yeah, there's a little bit of a band together storyline in this that I was kind of trying to get at there. Your own church experience was, like you said, the church was kind of a little bit more, the youth group at least, was a little more lighthearted. Did you ever feel like you were, were you in a church that you felt like was, I don't

know, like political in an uncomfortable way? Or when you look back at it, was it more like a so-so sort of thing? Yeah, I think I didn't realize it at the time. It's one of those things where I look back and go like, nope, that wasn't good. I grew up in Orange County, California, where just like most people went to some version of an evangelical church and it was just kind of what people did and you weren't really supposed to critique it that much. So yeah, I think it was one of those things where, and you know, I think there are much more extreme versions

of it that I did not get, thankfully. But like, yeah, when I look back, I'm a little like, oh, oh, that wasn't good. And you know, so, and you know, everybody's doing their best. But yeah, it was one of the, I think I didn't realize it until later when I, and especially looking back for this thing, like I just had to like sit around and remember that stuff.

And I'm like, oh yeah, okay, that was not good. Okay, I hope maybe someone corrected that at some point. So, you know. Now it's an interesting, cause I grew up in a church and a youth group as well. And I think everybody's experience of growing up with other churches that grow informs them. But I grew up in a church that I felt like was probably a lot more extreme than yours. And so, I have a hard time having positive feelings about it because it was so bad, so extreme. But I take it yours wasn't like, you don't look back at it as a wholly bad thing. So

it's easier for you to like look back and have positive feelings, have mixed feelings, have all these feelings and kind of put that into this book. Yeah, I mean, and I think if like someone had your experience, right, and read the book and is like, this is a little wishy washy and like this needs to have sharper teeth. Like I think that's a pretty, that's a fine criticism of the book. Like, you know, I think we didn't want it to be that we wanted it to be a little more like a little more gray area. But I mean, I think you can write a version of this story that is real critical and real like, you know, is more is morey than this is.

So yeah, I think we were trying for something else. But I think that if someone reads this and says like, hey, I think you should take more of a stance in some of this stuff, I would say that's a fine note about the book. What? Gritty reboot. Gritty reboot, yes. We'll get Christopher Nolan. Hi Christopher Nolan.

Hi Christopher Nolan, would you help me with this comic book? Certainly Jordan. There are a fair amount of people. I'm British. That was my Christopher Nolan. Very good. He's always saying he's British. I do actually feel like there's a lot more people

with your experience than mine in a way though, like where it's like, maybe you're not a church person, but you can kind of look back and have a laugh about it or kind of have a nostalgic feeling. Also, a little bit of a criticism. I think that's actually probably more common experience than the one I've had. And I feel like your book definitely taps into that. Yeah. Hopefully, it does seem like it's being critical while not, like making the characters villains. And I think that's what we were kind of like worried about.

It's like, we don't want them to be villains. We want them to be like wrong sometimes. And we want them to be like misguided sometimes, but we don't want anyone, we don't want any of the human characters to be pure evil. And I think even the demons aren't pure evil in this. You know, I think the demons have a point. Shouldn't humanity be eradicated? That's what I think even the demons aren't pure evil in this. I think the demons have a point. Shouldn't humanity be eradicated? That's what I think anyway. But yeah.

All right. I got one more question and then we'll go to the audience. So in your closing part, in the thank you section, you said that your editor, Ben, came up with the funniest part of the comic. And Wilgus, yeah. Okay. I wrote down what I think the funniest part of the comic. Ben Wilgus, yeah. Okay, I wrote down what I think the funniest part of the book is. Oh, sure. And I'm gonna see if this is the one that your editor came up with. So you tell me what Ben came up with.

Okay. That was the funniest. Oh, okay, so Ben Wilgus was my, so Callista Brill, the overall editor of the book, you also have a day-to-day editor on these projects sometimes. And mine was Ben Wilgus, who's a great comics writer. Recent book come out, Grace Needs Space. It's a great kid's book if you need a book for a kid,

really terrific. But Ben was helping me with like the final act, which was like a real wreck at one point. And now it's perfect. No, but we were kind of like looking for a way to like get from a point to another point. And Ben had this great idea of like, and we had a character who we needed to like hear from kind of like a character who needed to kind of like finish a journey. So Ben had this great idea of a scene where you see what's going on inside someone's head when they're possessed. And it's great. of a scene where you see what's going on inside someone's head when they're possessed. And it's great, I think it's really funny,

but also you get to learn a little bit about this character too, who you need some more information on. So yeah, I think it's just a fun thing. And yeah, again, one of those, oh, I don't think I've seen a lot of this in possession narratives before, so hopefully it's kind of a new fun

scene that you don't usually see in stuff like this. So yeah, that was Ben's contribution. I think that it's great. All right. What did you think it was? In my opinion, the funniest part of the book was- The Smash Mouth thing. There's one of the rules, the lore is that there's the,

you can erase the people's memory. Like if they see something you don't want them to see, erase their memory. And then there's discussion about, well, is this a memory eraser? Does this like mess up their brain? And you'd be like, oddly enough, it seems to add skills. And then you cut to these like stoner guys and they're like quilting.

We almost took that out 10 times. I for some I had points when I was reading it back and I'm like, this sucks. This quilting is dumb. Yeah, people like that. I've I've heard a couple of nice things about the quilt thing. So I'm glad we kept it in because, yeah, that was the quilting a lot. Before we do an audience Q&A, can I ask you a question or two? Me? Yes. Please.

Because we were talking about putting the personal stuff in a thing that's not a memoir. In In Defense of Skaw, which you should all get, I imagine there's one or two Skaw fans in the audience. You two tell personal stories in it. Did you think about, I'm doing a music history book, how and to what degree should I put myself into this? So I didn't initially intend to put myself into it,

but I think when I was tearing apart the idea and I was gonna tell the history of Skaab through all these different angles, I just decided that I would tell my own experience in there too. And I think what it ended up showing was that, like, I would write a chapter that would be like from like a third person, because I've been a journalist for a long time. So I do all these interviews and it would be like a journalistic point of view. But then if I wrote a chapter that was like, here's my band on tour, like it showed you like what a journalistic writing

couldn't like, this is what it actually felt like. This is what it actually felt like to be in a ska band in the 90s and to go on tour and to play in front of 50 people in Texas. And, you know, and so I think it gave a little flavor. So I really like, I came to like that. I think it's something that, you know, you don't normally get from like any kind of history book. Like, like I'm gonna cut, I'm gonna cut over here

and show you this totally different angle. Yeah. Who, okay. And we'll here and show you this totally different angle. Yeah, who okay and we'll Q&A after this. Yeah, who is who's the best? Sacramento ska band we're in Sacramento and we're trying to get a pop from the audience Who is there some other some oh, I was asking Aaron, but please feel I am curious what people think in the back Filibuster, oh it's filibuster?

Filibuster's great, I agree. Okay, do you agree, is that it? Yeah, we're gonna go tie with Les Distix and filibuster because I'm an audience pleaser. We're gonna have a riot if you say the wrong one. Yeah, does anybody have a question? I'll repeat it here for the listener. But if not, we can sign books and hang out.

Did you want, if it's not inconvenient, whoever want to ask a question here, because we're recording this, we'll. Yeah, we can also do it off mic later, if you want to. Either or, whatever you want. Or you can just ask it. Go ahead, ask her. No, just yell it and I'll answer.

Just yell it, Just yell at it. Well, now that we have talked about Ska and you mentioned you were a guest for a couple times, I'm curious what your connection to Ska is, and if it shows up in this very personal book you wrote. Sure, and this is why you're all here. I know. Like, when are they gonna start Ska? Yeah, so I was a Ska kid growing up, a theater kid and a Ska kid you say? Gasp, what an enigma this man is. But yeah, so it was part of growing up

in Orange County in the 90s. And yeah, I met Aaron through just kind of being, being someone who tweeted about Ska occasionally and he reached out about being on the show. And that's how we became friends and that's how this event happened. Aaron recommended this great bookstore, Wild Sisters. I'll say it on mic multiple times, Wild Sisters Books.

We love it, we love it. Beautiful, beautiful local bookstore here in Sacramento. Yeah, and I don't think there's any Ska jokes in the book. Did I? No, there's no Ska jokes in this book. There are some Ska references in Bubble. There are some Scott references in bubble. So, if that's what you're buying your books for, there's a couple. And I think they're pretty good too. They're pretty good. And to tie into Youth Group though, what type of Scott did you talk about on my podcast?

Oh, yes. On a recent episode of In Defense of Scott, me and the great comic and podcaster Kevin Porter, we talked about the world of Christian Ska. It existed. It was wild. Yeah, we had a blast. That's a great episode if you are looking to dive into Aaron's show. That's a great episode to start with. And specifically, we talked about the frame where it's at the underground and that was the youth group. And you actually went to a lot of punk and ska shows at the underground, right? Yeah, so okay, youth group, it got you in two ways in the 90s. We have punk shows and they would like do a little flyer

that looked like it was kind of made at Kinko's and you would go to a little punk show in the afternoon and the youth pastor would like talk between bands. And you know, like 12 and 13 year olds could go and your mom would drop you off and it was fun. But also just like someone you had a crush on would convince you to go and you would go because you liked them and wanted to talk to them.

So these were the two main recruiting tools they had for youth groups. So yeah. We have a question here. I have a parasocial relationship with you. Cool, congratulations. Yeah, it's classically sensual. We have a question here. I have a parasocial relationship with you. Cool. Congratulations. Sure. Fantastic. You're essentially

a real ad fan or a free with ads. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I want to find a new podcast, if I have gone through my library, I look at your name, look to see what you've been on recently, and it helps me find new podcasts, you are an emissary. What are you listening to right now that you think that we should listen to? What are you reading since we're in a bookstore? Oh, sure, absolutely. Yeah, for the listener at home, this man has a parasocial relationship with me.

And wants to know what podcasts I'm liking and also what I'm reading. Yeah, happy to do that. Yeah, as far as podcasts go, in defense of Scott, of course, of course. Let's see, I love, I just, in the car on the way up here, I listen to John Dickerson. Do we know John Dickerson from Slate Magazine and CBS News?

He has a great podcast called Navel Gazing about note taking. He's like a big note taker and keeps a lot of little notebooks, so he kind of like spins his notebook out into these like life lessons and stuff. And he's a very smart, funny, wonderful dude. And I'll also recommend the podcast Guys, a podcast about guys.

Okay, Pop for Guys, you guys know, it's two very funny comics. They find a guy, a type of sword guys, roller coaster guys, ska guys, I did comic book guys. And they just like find the weirdest stuff that these guys are doing online. It's a great funny weird show

and one of those concepts where you're like, oh my God, of course. Yeah, and as far as books go, I read a great graphic novel recently called Lunar New Year Love Story. It's by Jean Luen Yang and Luyen Pham. And it is a like rom- com with supernatural stuff in it. So it is like a, you know, teen girl who has to like choose

between two hunky guys, but also she's haunted by the ghosts of Catholic saints. It's wild, it's great comics. And yeah, those two creators can do no wrong. They're great. Yeah, I don't know if it's in the store, you should grab yours, but if not, Wild Sisters will order it up for you, I am sure.

Yeah. Quick question on this topic. Your book set in the 90s, you got a lot of love for 90s. What are you listening to music now that's not like a new music? What new music are you into right now? Oh, sure. Yeah, let's see.

In the world of ska, you can do no better than Catbite. Catbite, a great kind of two-tone style ska band, but they're current and touring now. This is a band I saw kind of recently and was blown away by. FIDLAR, F-I-D-L-A-R, stands for fuck it dog, life's a risk. Sorry, first swear of the night, I'm sorry. I apologize to kids.

They're a great kind of grimy punk band. Yeah, and I mentioned Kesha at dinner, we had dinner before this. Kesha's got a banger out now, the new Kesha single, listen to it, it's great. Yeah, those are some faves. You know, oddly enough, Fiddlar, their publicist just emailed me.

Oh yeah? That wants Fiddlar to be on In Defense of Skunk. Oh yeah, get him on. I was gonna say no, but you just raved about him and I'm like, we gotta have Fiddlar now. Reconsider Fiddlar, they're really good. Yeah, I don't know what they will have to say about Ska, but something hopefully. Yeah.

We got any other questions? Yes. Yeah. When you were trying to get Bowen to understand what your group was like, were you tempted to teach them about Power Team and really get into that whole sense of like, Power Team? Oh, yeah. So for the folks at home, this man is asking if I explained a power team to Bowen. I did not have any personal experience with power team who I believe, and correct me if

I'm wrong, are weightlifters who would come to schools and tear- And churches. And churches, schools. Oh, wow. A lot of power team fans in the house. And I guess these were just buff guys who would tear phone books in half, you know. In the name of Jesus.

In the name of Jesus. I only learned about power team kind of sort of recently. They do a little parody of it on Righteous Gemstones, I think. I wish, if we, listen, if we do another one, we'll have them fight Power Team. I think that's what we all want to happen. I'll say it if you don't mean it.

Hey, you know, listen, if you like Youth Group, please tell a friend, and then maybe we'll get to do another one where they fight Power Team. We've talked about it, we've talked about it. We have 10 sequel ideas. Please, if you're listening, buy multiple copies. We have too many good sequel ideas. Email?

At the publisher. Yeah, just... I can't email later. Thank you, yes. My publisher's email is... No, but yeah, no, thank you. If you like the book, please tell a friend, leave a review, make a post.

We like it. We love to hear it. But, you know, just coming here is great and checking out the book is great, and I love that. No need to do anything else if you don't want to but you can anything else this is fun I'm happy to yeah sure Mouse? No, Amina. Okay. I haven't heard of it. Is it good? Yeah. But I, so I don't read graphic novels.

Uh-huh. And can you, so I'm just curious what it is about, like, the format of a graphic novel, aside from the illustrations, that adds to the story or why this is, you know, is this your preferred form of writing and why? Yeah. You're gonna sell this whole industry on her right now. Okay, yeah. Okay, so in the 60s there was Jack Kirby.

No, yeah, I mean, I love comics. I was just like a comics kid since I could read and have always loved them. And I think that something I like about them is that I like collaborative creativity a lot. Like the first writing I did was like in sketch comedy groups and stuff like that. So I've always liked a group environment and I think making a graphic novel is like you

have a little team. You have your editors, you have your artists and like it's everybody making a soup together and I really like that about it. So that's, and, but yeah, and I also like, there's a thrill when you start getting that art back, when the artist draws what's in your head. But the better thing is when they draw what wasn't in your head.

When they just have this new thing, you know, there is a scene in Youth Group, you'll know it when you get to it. And I wrote it spice-free. You know, there is a scene in Youth Group, you'll know it when you get to it. And I wrote it spice-free. No spice in this scene at all, a fairly transactional scene between two people. There's a little power dynamic there.

A character, one character is feeling self-conscious because she thinks the other character is much cooler than her. And when Bowen drew it, it's spicy. And in a way where I'm like, oh my, I blushed a bit. It's, you know, it's spicy. And that stuff is really fun. The artist brings their stuff to it.

And it's just, I don't know, it's really wonderful. It's not just like your brain, it's these other brains too. And hopefully you make something cool. Yeah, and I'll jump in on the graphic novel pitch. Some of the fun of a graphic novel is like, you can have some pretty, you know, like some elaborate dialogue and storytelling happening, but then you can have like a scene or two

that has no words at all. And so these pictures then tell the story. So you kind of go back and forth between like you're reading a book versus you're just looking at drawings. So you're getting kind of these different ways that the story is being told to you. And I think that's a fun experience as a reader. Yeah. And yeah, there's so many. And I think Youth Group is nice for the occasional comics fan. There's a beginning, middle, and an end. Yeah, I know sometimes those monthly comics can be a little intimidating when it's like, this is number 839? What did I miss? So yeah, hopefully, and First Second does a great job of

that of putting out books that are good for comics super fans, but also people who don't read that many. So yeah. And you had a question? Chip Dibson and Dip Dobson. Yes. This guy is asking me about Chip Dipson and Dip Dobson too. Running jokes on the Jordan Jesse Go podcast. No, I didn't put any Jordan Jesse Go stuff in it. I like some of this stuff to be kind of separate a little bit of not... I don't want people to think that when they read something I wrote, that it's like an inside joke or it's like they're missing something.

I feel like sometimes I, you know, I read something or I experience something from someone who has like a following, and I'm like, I don't get this, this is an inside joke. And I don't want people to feel like that, you know? As much as I love Chip Dibson and Dip Dobson and talking about them on Jordan, Jesse, Go! every week. Yeah, I hope that like, if you listen to the podcast, you maybe recognize some of my sense of humor in here. But like,

if you don't, if you're just like a comics person, if you're a fan of Bowen, you know, if you're a, you know, Bowen arguably more fans than I have and with good cause. And yeah, I wanted like Bowen's fans to be able to read it and not feel like they were, you know, getting something that was, you know, not for them. So yeah, that's why I avoid using stuff like that. Yeah, sure. I was wondering, because this book is so personal, whenever you read it back through, was there any sense of nostalgia or any of the situations that you talked about, like therapeutic, being that

you can kind of remove yourself from them because now they're a whole different person for them almost. Yeah, totally. The asker asked if there was something therapeutic about the personal stuff in this and totally, absolutely. It's interesting to like look back on this stuff. Some of the childhood stuff that made it in here is kind of sad. It's some sad stuff that happened to me as a kid.

Not very normal sad stuff that happens to kids. Nothing devastating. But yeah, I don't know. It was interesting going back and thinking about the sad thing, and then thinking about how it was all okay. You know, I'm like, oh, I know how this ends. You know, I guess I don't know how my life ends. I'm not a, you know, weird psychic, but you know,

I'm like, oh yeah, I guess I came out of that okay, and I guess that got better. So yeah, there was something therapeutic about it. Anything else? Yeah. Since you were, like, creating a time and a place that has you going back to the 90s and your young adulthood, if you will, were the memories there or is there any exercise or anything you had to do to pull yourself back to it to have the memories come back or what did you do to extrapolate on them?

Yeah, the asker's asking how I got back to the memories from that time to use them. Honestly, that music video thing, I mean, all, like, even if you weren't a fan of Hanson, if you were around that time, you can sing, mm bop, it was everywhere. Yeah, that really helped. Like, music is so like, you time, you can sing, mm bop, it was everywhere. Yeah, that really helped. Music is so, something you know,

that it's just such a memory-unlocker. So that was really helpful. And yeah, and I guess I did go back and look at some old photos and stuff like that. And that helped too. But yeah, I didn't interview any old teachers or anything like that. But yeah, it's definitely some, I'm like pop culture stuff was really cool

to revisit and helped yes yes I am I will do what this asker says and unequivocally say on record Mbop is a jam I am sorry if I ever said thank you yes a round of applause for those talented Hanson siblings Yeah, Mbop is a great song and yeah, I was definitely like, you know a more of a punk kid growing up So I could never admit that I liked them, but I am now over that and I can say that Mbop slaps All right, okay. Yeah, I think I don't think there's a question that could top that one. I mean, that is a great way to go out. So yeah, let's hang out. If you want to buy a book, you can.

I'll sign it. I'll personalize it. We'll hang out. We'll do photos. And yeah, if anybody wants, we're going for a drink at Cheaters after this. See everybody at Cheaters. Thank you. Thank you all for coming.

And thanks, Wild Sisters. Thanks. Thank you, everybody. I'll love you and kiss you and love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Maximum fun. A worker-owned network. Of artist-owned shows.

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