Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Dave Foley

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

Meet Dave Foley, a Canadian-American actor, stand-up comedian, director, producer and writer. He is best known as a co-founder of the comedy group The Kids in the Hall. Listen to Craig and Dave catch up and talk Hollywood, religion and UFOs. EnJOY!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad, and I had the best memories and the greatest experience, and that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to know how to leverage culture

to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business.

Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. We were all facing 20 years and all that good stuff. The lead singer tried to pull off an English accent and they went on the road as the zombies. These guys are not going to get away with it. The zombies are too popular. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

When I do live gigs around the country, I'll be honest with you, I sell t-shirts and swag to the folks who are there. And then people always say, can we get the swag without sitting through a whole evening of you? Well, it's happened. It's finally here. You can buy Craig Ferguson merch on the Craig Ferguson merch website, and you can buy it for yourself or someone you hate or someone you love. For more information and link to the web store, please go to thecraigfergusonshow.com. That's all lowercase. Thecraigfergusonshow.com. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. My guest today on the podcast is someone who is, let's be honest, Canadian. But he's a friend of mine and I've been aware of him for a long time.

but he's a friend of mine and I've been aware of him for a long time. He's about the same age as me. He was on The Kids in the Hall when I was in rehab. He was in News Radio when I was in The Drew Carey Show. And then we worked together on Horton Cleveland. He's my favourite kid in the hall, apart from the other ones. No, he's my favourite. Dave Foley, everyone. Enjoy. So you're saying Czech is now called Czechia.

Yeah. Turkey is now called Turkey. Yes. Canada? Canadia. Canadia? Canadia. Because you are, of course, famously Canadian.

I am. I'm an official icon. Yeah. Do they have a foley day or anything like that? No. No, they don't. But you are much beloved in the land of the North, I believe. Yeah, but you'd think more.

No, no. In Canada, it's like Scotland. It's like, oh, are you? You're doing well? Well, good for you. Yeah, I would say Canada it's like Scotland. It's like, oh, are you? You're doing well? Well, good for you. Yeah, I'm actually, I would say, probably more beloved in America. Oh, that's definitely the case with me in Scotland.

They kind of don't like me. When you come back and say, oh, yeah. Jim Carrey told me a thing. He's Canadian. Yes, he is. We know who every Canadian is going back to the beginning of time. The first Canadian?

If there was a Canadian... Isn't there a hymn? The first Canadian came and... If there was a Canadian at the crucifixion, we'd be proud of him. It's like any Canadian, no matter what. Well, so you know Jim Carrey's Canadian. Yes.

And he said to me that when he goes home, they say to him, Oh, hi, Jim. What are you not eating now? Because of his Hollywood connection, you see. I don't know how it is now. I haven't seen Jim Carrey. Do you know Jim Carrey? I don't know him well. I've only met him

a couple of times over the years. A couple of times, too, over the years. I did a movie with him briefly. He was in the movie a lot and I was in it briefly. It's called a cameo if you're famous. I think it was more a... Were you famous at the time?

No. Oh, bit part. Bit part, yeah. So I think it was more a kind of bit part that was cut down from bit to micro. Micro part. But he was very pleasant, I have to say, in that Canadian way of, you know, friendly. Yeah, it's all funny. Stereotypical.

Yeah. Because there's passive aggression there as well. It's really just something we put on for foreigners. So when the lights are down and you're all Canadians together, it's... Oh, it's crazy. It's vicious. How long have you lived in America? More than 28 years, I think.

Oh, my God. Yeah, almost... I moved here in 33, when I was 32. 28 more than 28 years I think one of my yeah almost I moved here in 33 when I was 32 1932 I was 32 when I moved here it was 1933

the Kaiser was imagining no that's anyway look America refusing to join the war that's right well there wasn't

the war yet but if there was going to be a war they were thinking about refusing it yes was that kids in the hall was that in Canada then?

Well, we finished shooting the show, I guess, in 94. And they finished airing in 95. But you shot them in Canada. We shot them all in Toronto, yeah. But they were aired on CBS? We were on the last two or three years were CBS. Yeah. And Comedy Central.

So there. Because that's where I first noticed it. Yeah. Comedy Central, I think. Yeah. We were on, well, we were on HBO first and CBC in Canada. Right. And then we were on, then Comedy Central would air the shows.

I forget how many weeks after HBO aired them. A censored version. Right. We did a reboot for Amazon. Oh, God. You know what? I knew that. Two years ago. A censored version. Right. We did a reboot for Amazon. Oh, God, you know what? I knew that because I watched it. It was just the same. It's just a stick in your memory.

Oh, yes. No, no. The reason why I forgot about it was because it was like Kids in the Hall. It was actually very satisfying because it was more episodes of Kids in the Hall. I did like it. I'm so sorry for forgetting about it. No, well, that's what we wanted it to feel like i mean we always like within the troupe we always refer to it as season six it that i think that's correct yeah because i was like oh my god everything

is the same yeah except you know everybody you know old nobody sits in sugar mountain forever no because you were all so young and promising. How did that come about? The name wasn't so ironic back when we started. See, that's the thing with kid in the title. When you think kid rock, kids in the hall. I know. Kid in play. Kid in play.

They'll become a time when you think, I wish I hadn't called myself that. Yeah, it's too late now. Do you think Sting ever thinks that? He's like, oh my God. No, I don't think Sting ever has a negative thought about himself. You know what? I think that's true late now. Do you think Sting ever thinks that? He's like, oh my God. No, I don't think Sting ever has a negative thought about himself. You know what? I think that's true. Yeah.

Well, who's the other one? The American one. Yeah, the drummer. Stuart Copeland. Stuart Copeland, yeah. Great drummer. Yeah. Do you think?

Oh, sure. I think he's too busy as a drummer. I like a drummer who's a little more kind of like, all right, rein it in. You know what really bothers me? Drummers who stand up. Oh, yeah. Knock that shit off. Like they'll stand up at the end of a song or anything.

What if they do it just to take their t-shirt off? Well, that's bad too. I don't mind them standing up if it's the end of the show and they got to go home. Yeah. But standing up during the show at the end of a song, I'm here, you know. Yeah.

No. Play the drums. Yeah. And let someone else do it. Neil Peart never stood up or took his shirt off. Neil Peart never did that. Neil Peart was a busy drummer, but he could get away with it. Were you into Rush when you were...

You know what, when I was a teenager I wasn't really that into them. There was a band that used to open for them all the time that I was more into called Max Webster. And then as an adult, I got to be I got to know their music more as an adult and I became friends with them all as an adult. Yeah.

When I, in, uh, back when I was making a news radio. Do you know what's, I'm going to get to news radio in a minute, but the thing about Rush is I hated Rush when I was a kid. I hated them. And then I saw that documentary on, I think it was Netflix or something. Yeah. It's great. And I was like, documentary on, I think it was Netflix or something. Yeah, yeah. It's great. And I was like, I'm a dick. Rush are awesome. And I had to go back and listen to their back catalog. And I was like, this is great. Why did I hate this?

Because you were into punk. That's exactly what it was. I was into punk. And you weren't allowed to like anything that wasn't punk. I know. Well, I've even been going through things like my daughter has been educating me on the music of my youth. Yeah, that happens to me too. Yeah, like she got me to not even like love ELO, which at the time I did not like. That's a deep cut for me, man. I'm not into ELO.

Yeah, but they're great. So you say. I mean, it's like you're a little ahead of me. Amazing pop songs. Yeah, I don't know I remember they did a version of Roll Over Beethoven I liked when I was a kid yeah but Mr. Blue Sky I can't do that song can't do that song those are great songs no can't do it yeah to to I I was you I was with you until until what happened to you middle school

you you used to be like you the whole ethos of kids in the hall was like fuck you guys I was with you until middle school. What happened to you, man? You used to be like, the whole ethos of kids in the hall was like, fuck you guys. Yeah. No, it's those 45-minute drives to my daughter's school up in L.A., you know? Yeah. And it was always her playlist, so. Really? Oh, yeah. We listened to her playlist every morning on the way to school. And it was full of ELO,

and she was playing deep cuts from the Kinks and the Zombies. The Kinks I can go with a little bit. The Kinks, well, they were proto-punk. They were proto-punk, actually. They had an attitude about them. They didn't get along. They were kind of like Oasis. It was Ray Davis and...

What was the other one? Ray Davis and... And Dave Davies one ray davis and dave davies and dave davies and dave davies and then there was regis tito and germaine yes yeah that was a lot of davies and they were yeah and they were uh like when i was a teenager before punk really kind of hit in my high school right all of us we were like neo hippies but we all listened to like early who and kinks that That's true. Early Who was like a big deal. Hope I die before I get old.

Yeah. I remember, see, because they're all quite, the ones who are still alive are old now. Yeah. And some of them did die before they got old.

Yeah. Some of them died when they were middle-aged. One of them died old. One of them died young. Keith Moon was 33. Yes, I know. He looked,

but he looked terrible, so he made you feel better about it. He did look bad, yeah. Which is very thoughtful of him. Yes, I know. He looked, but he looked terrible, so he made you feel better about it. He did look bad, yeah. Which is very thoughtful of him. Well, it's a way of, you know, giving a little sugar with the medicine, maybe. I don't know. It's bad, though. He had a bad day. Yeah, 33. That's terrible. That's alcoholism.

I know. Are you still single? Yeah, again. No, single again. Single again. Yeah, because I'm good at relationships how long how many times you've been married uh twice but uh well actually well sort of three times wait divorced beheaded survived divorced yeah or divorced i don't know what so twice married well but uh i'm i was with my second wife twice. Ah, okay.

Yeah, we were married, separated for 10 years. Okay. We got back together for five. Oh, I think I remember this. Yeah, we got back together for five, and now we're separated again. Okay, well, I'm sorry to hear that. Is everything cool? Oh, yeah, everything's fine.

All right. We're very close still. Oh, that's great. That's the advantage of being a little older, all that rage. Yes, that's great. That's the advantage of being a little older, all that rage. Yes, yeah. What does this do? Yeah, and having a truly nightmarish,

comparing to the first one, everything's always going to feel good. Yeah, you failed that as a famous lead. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Great one for you. I remember me talking about that at one point. You were telling me the conditions

of your divorce agreement. I was like, that doesn't seem possible. Yeah, and not uncommon in Canada at all. They still do that? the conditions of your divorce agreement. I was like, that doesn't seem possible. Yeah, and not uncommon in Canada at all. They still do that? Are you still under that draconian boot? I'm not. But only like from a little over a year. Oh, my God.

And you were apart for what, 20? 30 years. 30 years? Yeah. Jeez. I don't know, man. Let's see. I've been married three times. Yes. But I'm on the third Yeah. Jeez. I don't know, man. Let's see. I've been married three times.

Yes. But I'm on the third one. Yes. First one was when I was 21. Yeah. Divorced when we were like 24. Yeah. I kind of feel that doesn't count that much.

Yeah. Because, you know, there were no kids. And then I got married again when I was 38. Divorced when I was 38 or 36, I don't know, something like 36 divorced when I was like 41. Yeah. And then now I've been married to Megan for, I don't know, 150 years at this point. Yeah.

It's a long since 2008. So that seems like a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we were together before that. Yeah. No, that's all good.

Well, I'm thinking, well, maybe someday. Well, I think it's fine for you. I think it'll be all right. You didn't ask me for my romantic history, and I don't know why I felt the need to tell you. Well, no, it's nice to figure it out. Well, you know, it's catching up. Because I met your new wife, Megan, at the hockey the other night.

We went to see the New York Rangers. Yeah. Yeah. My youngest son. I have two of them. Yes. And he's, yeah, because you're about the same age as one of my kids. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. My youngest son, I have two of them. Yes, because you're, and he's, yeah, because you're, Ellis is about the same age as one of my kids.

Yeah, right, 23. 23. Yeah. Yeah, I have a daughter that's 21. Just turning 21 on the 16th. Musseltoff, are you going to have a party? She is. Right.

Because she's turning 21 in America. Right, so. Oh, that means, yeah, you could drink. Yeah, without taking your fake ID out with it. Yeah. It seems to me, coming from, where was the drinking age in Canada? Canada's 19. Yeah, Scotland, I think it's...

12? 5? 5, yeah. No, I think it's 18 in Scotland. I don't know, maybe 16. Yeah, the effective drinking age in Canada is much lower. Yes, the effective drinking age. For me, I started drinking when I was 13.

Yeah, I was around there. Yeah. Did you ever run into problems with the booze? Oh, God, no. Oh, good for you. Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

A little bit. You know what I've always meant to ask you? Are you related to the Foley people that do the special effects? Remember the Foley thing? I don't think so. No, that's a shame. I should try to find. I don't think we're related to the catheter people either. They make catheters?

Yeah, the Foley catheter is a medical instrument that I so far have managed to avoid that one so far. Aging is an undignified process though, isn't it? Oh, it is. Yeah. It is. I find that you and I are almost exactly the same age. I was 1962 when I was born.

I'm 63, yeah. Oh, I'm older than you? I am, yeah. January, January 63. Oh, right. May 62. Yeah, so it's much closer. So seven or eight months.

Yeah. But I find myself, you're drinking black coffee. I'm drinking a very unpleasant drink called Pure Greens. Yeah. It's garbage. I just was in my pharmacy. You own a pharmacy? Yeah, I bought a pharmacy.

Good for you. Because acting isn't stable. No, it is not. I wish I owned a pharmacy. I wish I owned a pharmacy. And I kind of, part of my life, I wished you owned a pharmacy. At this point, I don't even own a car at this point. Well, you live in New York.

You don't need a car. What do you want a car for? No. But I went in and was looking at a big tub of powder that said greens on it. And asking a young man who worked there, basically just said, you look healthy. Is this any good? Do you need this? No, but I was born in 2004.

He said, yeah, this is good. So I haven't tried it yet, but I was born in 2004. Yeah. Are you ready? He said, yeah, this is good. Yeah. So I haven't tried it yet, but I'll be drinking that. It's just, there's so many unpleasant things to eat and drink as you go. Yeah. I'm doing things like, but I'm taking a bag of supplements this big. Right. Right.

You can't see this on your radio, but about the size of a football. About the size of a football. I was going to say small or to mid-sized watermelon. Yeah. Which is about the size of a football. I was going to say small or to mid-sized watermelon. Yeah. Which is about the size of a football, I think. Yeah. And do you have that every day? I have to go take a fistful of pills.

No, I don't, actually. Oh, that's good. And some of them are prescriptions? I had a prescription for a while for... Epidid... No, that's your balls. Esophageal esophagitis or something. Oh, yes, the GERD.

Oh, the GERD. Omniprazole, right? Omniprazole, yeah. I didn't take that. That's one of my supplements. Well, let me tell you about that thing, though. You got to be careful. You take that too long, and then suddenly you're, you know.

I've already been taking it too long. What's up? Oh, Dad, don't worry about it. It's fine. It's totally harmless in every way. Yeah. It's fine. God, you call an ambulance.

Yeah. So, yeah, I get the jerd, and I had to have a scope, because my dad died of esophageal cancer. Yeah, that's why I'm still taking the MEP results because they told me if you don't treat it, that can lead to... It can lead to that. Have you got the Barrett's? Is that what you've got? I don't know. What's that? Barrett's esophagus? I don't know

what that is. No, I don't know. Well, it's two things. One, it was one of the forgotten bands of Woodstock. And the other one is that it was inflammation or some kind of disease of your esophagus. Yeah. I usually ignore my doctors until they get to what do I have to do. I don't listen to any of the other talk. Yeah, yeah.

Here's the thing, blah, blah. Have you been on vacation this year? All that stuff they say. Take this. Then take this. I don't know, though. I find myself a little more health conscious than I used to be. Yeah.

Because age is terrifying. Yeah, but there's all this great science on aging that's being done. Oh, be. Yeah. Because age is terrifying. Yeah, but there's all this great science on aging that's being done. Oh, really? Yeah, like David Sinclair. Who's David Sinclair?

He is a scientist. Where is he from? Was he with MIT or Harvard? I can't remember now, but he wrote a book, Aging and Why Maybe We Don't Have To, something like that

is the title of the book. Sounds like an easy click. Yeah, but he's been doing stuff. He's actually, in the lab, halted and reversed the aging in mice and believes he can do that in humans. You can actually just turn your age back about 20 years. I bet it involves fasting. No, this is just basically a pill.

What? Hang on, I'm listening. Is it called Ozempic by any chance? No, no. Although he does promote the intermittent fasting, which I do. I do, too. I do, too. I actually get a kick out of it.

I kind of like it. I haven't eaten anything today. I've had a banana, but only because my wife was here. Eat a banana for God's sake. I haven't eaten breakfast in years. I don't usually eat until at least 2 o'clock. Yeah, I'm kind of like that anyway. It's not that hard to do intermittent fasting.

That's kind of easy. No, you sleep for most of it. That's right, you sleep for most of it. One thing I have to say, this is a geezer thing that I have to say. If I don't eat for like four or five hours before I go to sleep, if I can go to sleep hungry, I sleep a lot better. Yeah. Because I'm not. Yeah.

No, I think I, yeah, I stopped eating at 10. Right. When'd you go to sleep? Uh, me? Usually around between midnight and two, usually. What? Yeah. What are you doing? Are you go to sleep? Me? Usually around between midnight and two, usually. What? Yeah. What are you doing?

Are you at the club? No, no, I'm lying in bed fussing. Oh, all right. All right. Worrying about things? Oh, my God, yeah. God, I still worry about everything all the time. Well, you have children.

You're never going to worry. You're going to be worried all the time. Yeah. The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand-Up Tour continues throughout the United States in 2024. For a full list of dates and tickets, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour. See you out there. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you.

I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. Over my career, I've built and helped run multiple seven-figure businesses that leverage culture and built successful brands. Now I want to share what I've learned with you. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. On every episode, we get the inside scoop on how these leaders tap into culture to build something amazing. From exclusive interviews to business breakdowns, we'll explore the journey of turning passion for culture into business. Whether you're just getting started or an established business owner, Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level.

This is Butternomics. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went.

Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just

this relaxation, this not feeling stressed, this not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you've got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone.

You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you believe the adage, you're only as happy as your least happy child? Oh, I hope not.

Well, wait a minute. What if you don't pay attention to that child? Well, then you're all right. That's part of the reverse aging process. It's a reverse reach around of age. If you only think about yourself, then you'll be fine. Somebody talked to me about Ozempic. Because a friend of mine who lost a lot of weight with Ozempic.

And I was like, is it good? Because who couldn't lose a little weight? I'd love to lose some weight. And he said, yeah, it really works. Really, you have no appetite. You're just not hungry. I'm like, I haven't been hungry since the 1970s. I don't eat because I'm hungry. I eat because I'm sad. I'm sad. That's why I eat. I need something to cheer me up. I'm thinking more

cocaine. Cocaine cheers you up. And low in calories. And low in calories, and you don't feel like eating. It does seem to have dramatic behavioral side effects. Not that I've ever noticed. Well, okay. Fair enough. In that case, will you read my screenplay? Will you read my screenplay? So,

how does it start for you? You're in Toronto. Yes. You're a beautiful little boy with a school uniform and you're the pride of the Foley family. You go,

this is the new catheter boy for us. Because you're not from a show business family, are you? No, I'm from a construction family. Right, so they're like, young Dave. Well, my dad was a pipe fitter who wanted to be... Lumberjack?

No, no, no. Jack Kerouac, basically. Oh, wow. Yeah, he wanted to be a working class poet. Right, yeah. But the only part of that that he really got down was the alcoholism ah yes yes um my old yeah you know we were you know he was like second generation canadian irish yeah um and uh so it was uh it was kind of a working class family, but a working class family with pretensions, I guess you'd say. Although my mom was just straight up working class English with no pretensions.

All right then, Dave. Yes, it was like, oh, no. Oh, no, Dave. Don't, please, don't. Yes. Oh, well, why would they want you to do that? Yeah. Do you want to invent the catheter or something?

Invent the catheter. Yeah, I know. Yeah, my mom was, yeah, it was, like, her philosophy was, her only two philosophical ideas were don't fuss. Okay. And her second was, oh, that's how they get you. Well, you know what? It's not bad, actually.

It's a little stark and bleak and it's a and it's a belt on Sean, but it's okay. Yeah. It's always, everyone's always out to get you. Yeah. Yeah. My mother used to say, my mother used to say stuff whenever we went to a store when I was a kid, I remember that she would say like, she would get you, this has been back when people had money instead of, you know, cards. So it would be, you know, cash and coins and stuff and notes and coins or in our case, coins. And she would say, once we walked out of the store, she would say, did you see that girl trying to take my change? I said, I did not.

I said, yes, she was thinking about taking my change, but then she saw me looking at her and she changed her mind. And I was like, I don't see the world like everyone trying to take your change. Yeah. But I understand that some people do. Yes. Maybe I do see the world a bit like that.

Anyway, so you're the pipe fitter's, alcoholic pipe fitter's son. Yeah. I think, feel like that's the beginning of a limerick. He was only an alcoholic pipe fitter's son. Good. We'll work out the rest later. Yeah, we'll put it in in post.

So what happened? How did you get into show business? Accidentally, really. I think when I was a kid, I thought maybe I would be a writer. Right. I liked writing a lot. And I would be a writer. Right. I liked writing a lot. And I would write funny things, because I was always the funny one in my group of friends

when I would have one. To be fair, that's a pretty low bar in Canada. Yeah. Have you met Jim Carrey? Yeah, I'm just kidding. It's a joke. I'm kidding. Have you met Jim Carrey? Yeah, I'm just kidding. It's a joke. Oh, man. All right.

But so we're, and literally, I was in high school, in an alternative high school, which meant I was not doing anything that was ever going to make me graduate. Hold on. An alternative high school? Yeah, it was like a hippie high school. Oh, okay. It was like one of those high schools that started in late 60s. How does the pipe for a son get into hippie high school. Oh, okay. It was like one of those high schools that started in the late 60s. How does the Pipeforson get into an alternative high school?

Well, my older brother went there in like the early 70s. Right. And I went there, and I saw it. I went down and visited it. When he went there, it was like this crazy school that was full of hippies and graffiti on all the walls. Jeez. And it was just very cool. It seemed very cool.

Is that a boarding school uh no no nope and this is public school too it's run by the board of education so it was all free great and so i thought that when i get when i'm old enough i'm gonna go to that school okay and so yeah so i after you know enduring like one year of regular high school i transferred to this alternative high school and which i said it was kind of like a school for smart troublemakers. It was a way of funneling all the people that were causing trouble in regular high school out of the system.

Okay. So I went there and had this great group of friends. Everyone was a poet and a painter. Right. Troublemakers. Yes. Troublemakers.

They're all kind of Kerouac. Yeah, yeah. Right, okay. And, you know, it was a thing. You know, you called your teachers by their first names. Good Lord, man. And classes were only about seven or eight people. What the hell?

And at the beginning of each class, we only had tutorials, not really classes. Right. And we would vote on whether to be a smoking or non-smoking class. Wow. Yes. And no class ever voted to be non-smoking. You shocked me. Yeah.

Wow. This is incredible. Yeah. And then we had a little common room for the students. And literally, we would just go in there and listen to old Pink Floyd and Kinks albums and smoke pot and drink wine. That sounds like everybody at high school. But you don't usually get it kind of, you know, provided.

So is that where you met the other kids in the hall? No, no, but that's where a friend of mine on the way to school one day, I'd been making her laugh on the way to school, Evelyn Chappell, I always give her credit. Right. We were riding the bus, you know, like a 45-, always give her credit. We were riding the bus, you know, like a 45 minute trip to the school and we were riding the bus together. And I was making her laugh all the way to school. We were just having fun. And then as we're getting off the

bus, she goes, you know, you should do standup. And I went, oh, I never thought about it. And I said, well, you know, I'll see if I can write something. And that's basically it. I decided, okay, I'll sit down and I'll try to write a stand-up set. And, you know, sort of dug into like studying how stand-up sets work. How do they work? I don't know. But I did a lot of like research on, maybe too much research on Lenny Bruce. Right, right.

Because I decided I was really going to set out to be a 17-year-old Lenny Bruce. Well, that's a Kerouac aspiration. You know, that's the kind of, I'm not only going to be funny, I'm going to be important and respected. And maybe perhaps even dead. Yeah. That's very comedic, I think. Yes. I must, very comedian, you know, I must be respected as well as be funny.

Yes. Yeah. And, you know, and I be respected as well as be funny. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, and I always, and I was already a fairly heavy drinker at that point. Good for you. So, you know. Getting all lined up and ready to go. Yes. And like, you know, and enjoyed a few different drugs.

So, yeah, so I started writing a set and I thought, well, the only way to find out if this really works is to go down to the local, the Yuck Yucks Comedy Club. Yuck Yucks Toronto? Yuck Yucks Toronto, yeah. Still there probably, isn't it? There's still one, I think there's still one there. I've never played at Yuck Yucks. No, no. They used to be the only thing you could play in Canada.

Right. So I went down and started doing open mics. And they went okay. Yeah, I did. Here we sit. Yeah, I would be a hit we sit. Yeah, it was sort of a... I would be a hit every time I'd do it. And every time I'd go back, I'd write a whole new set.

Wow. So like, you know... Conscientious. You know, you go down, you're doing like five to seven minutes. Right. And so every time I'd go, I'd write a new five to seven minutes. Which would eventually turn into, you got an hour. Eventually, if I'd kept at it.

You didn't keep at it? No, because somebody suggested, oh, you should do, there's these improv classes you could take. Oh. And again, going back to my Lenny Bruce thing. Right. Yeah, I know he did a lot of improv and enjoyed improv. Not in improv classes though. No.

He wouldn't be like, okay, give me the name of a political ideology that you're angry about. So I thought, well, I'll go try to learn some improv skills. Right. And so I went to Second City classes. Ah, now that's real. That's like proper show business. Second City in Toronto is like very legendary. Of course.

Yeah, and in my very first class, I was paired up with a guy named Kevin McDonald. Oh, no. Yeah. The kids in the hall are beginning to form. Yes. And that was just random.

Our teacher, Alan Gutman doing, okay, let's pair off one, two, one, two, one,

two, just like that. Wow. And Kevin and I got paired together. We made each other laugh doing a stupid mirror exercise. And, uh, and we both were like,

you're both very funny, man. Yeah. Well, and we were clearly, we were mocking the exercise as we were doing the exercise. Yeah. That's good.

You know? And so it was like, I go, Oh, I like this guy makes me laugh. And he has the same attitude to me about anything we're being asked to do. And, uh, and at the end of that class, he asked me to join his comedy troupe.

And what were they called? I think at the time, he didn't really have... Well, he did have one, but Kevin likes to say he didn't. But the truth is, he was in a group with a guy named Luciano Casimiri and another fellow named Scott Stewart. They were called Uncle Vanier and the Three Sisters at the time. Okay. And so I joined.

Jacobian comedy. Everybody loves that. Oh, yes. So I joined them and eventually it became just Kevin Lucha and myself. And we became eventually the first version of the Kids in the Hall. All right. So the three of us were the original Kids in the Hall. And then we met up with Mark and Bruce's troupe called The Audience.

And then we sort of merged into one big troupe. Into the big kids in the hall. Yeah. And then what you got offered by CBC, come and see. And they go, these kids are great, eh? Let's get them on TV. Well, no. Oh, God, no.

Canada? No, that's not how it works. No. No. These kids should be in jail. Yeah. No, we started doing these shows, and eventually Scott joined as the fifth member, final.

And we were doing these shows on Queen Street in Toronto, which is kind of like the hipster section of Toronto. It still is, I think, isn't it? Yeah. It's a little more upscale now than it used to be. I guess. The hipster scene has moved further west. Well, I guess it had to.

Yeah. Toronto is a vastly changed city in the last 25 years. Yes, the density has doubled. You know, when I first went to Toronto, I think it was probably in the 1990s, there was only one condo in Toronto. Yes, and it was shared. It was a timeshare with Gordon Lightfoot. Yes.

And he sang that old song. The only condo in Toronto. Which is a favorite. Buffy St. Marie got it Wednesdays and Fridays. That's right, Buffy St. Marie. And then I think Rush used it over the Christmas period. And that was it. Yeah.

But now it's just like, it's condo city. Yeah, the lake is walled off by condos now. Unbelievable, right? I mean, it's crazy. You used to be able to see that thing on the drive-in from the airport. And now it's just like, bang. Yes. You get off the plane and it's condos everywhere.

Oh, yeah. And it's insanely expensive. Traffic is horrible. Worse than Los Angeles. Yeah. They have terrible smog in Toronto now. How can that be in Canada? insanely expensive. Traffic is horrible. Worse than Los Angeles. Yeah. Smog. They have terrible smog in Toronto now.

How can that be? Yeah. Canada. Yeah. Smog. I know. Smog should be the name of a puppy in Canada,

not a thing. It's really strange. Yeah, Toronto has changed incredibly. Unbelievable. Yeah. So you got your troupe together and how do you get on CBC then?

How does that happen? Oh, well, that happened because we were doing these shows on Queen Street and they gradually became more and more popular. So you guys are now like Beatles and the Cat. Yeah, it was getting like that, but comedy, so smaller. But we had lineups around the block for our shows. Beautiful. What a time of life that is.

And people from SCTV started coming to see our shows. Very exciting. You know, especially Dave Thomas became a mentor to us. Oh, my God, these legends we're talking about. Yeah, and Catherine O'Hara and her sister Mary Margaret used to come to the shows all the time. Wow, right. I remember the now late Joe Flaherty used to come down. Right.

Marty Short would come down. Jeez. So, you know, so we had all these, you know, I think Eugene came to some of the shows. So we had all of our heroes were coming to see our shows. That's like me meeting Peter Cook and stuff like that. Yeah. It was like crazy. Yeah.

So we were like, you know, overwhelmed by that. So that we were becoming really sort of known in Toronto. So then we got scouted for Saturday Night Live in, I guess, it was 85. Right. And, but, because Yvonne Fasan, who was a late night vice president at NBC at the time. Right. I know nothing about that world. Yes.

I really don't. Yeah. Well, he was a vice. So, he was there and then he recommended us for Saturday Night Live. And then shortly after that, he left NBC and started running the CBC in Canada. So I think it was Al Franken, and I keep thinking it was Jim Downey. Kevin keeps saying it was Davis, Franken and Davis. I forget his name now.

Tom Davis? Sammy? Tom? Sammy Davis? No, no, I don't think so. I remember him. Tom? No, no, I don't think so.

I remember him. But so they came, we did like an audition at the Rivoli, our club, an empty Rivoli to just like Al Franken, Dave Thomas, and I think it was Jim Downey. And we did an audition. And eventually they hired Mark and Bruce as apprentice writers for Saturday Night Live in 85. Okay. And then.

They wanted to split up the band? Yeah. But what happened was they went down and started writing Kids in the Hall sketches for Saturday Night Live. Yeah.

And none of them got on the air. What a surprise. Do you want some water? Oh, no, thanks. I'm good here. And then... This is not my prostate. This is me actually

pouring water. Yeah. Yeah. From my pee hole. Okay. Yeah, you can hear my prostate just going, what's going on? I'm here. Yep. Yeah. Um, yeah. From my pee hole. Okay. Yeah, you can hear my prostate just going, huh? What's going on?

I'm here. Yep. Is it time? It's always time. Yep. But they kept coming back on the weeks off because it turns out

they have a lot of time off on Saturday Night Live. I don't know. I never worked on that show. I know. They talk about how hard it is. Oh, fuck. They're off constantly.

One show a week? Yeah. Go fuck yourself. And then, yeah, they get a week off every three weeks. What the fuck? Yeah. I mean, come on., yeah, they get a week off every three weeks. What the fuck? Yeah.

I mean, come on. So they would come back and we would do shows in Toronto. And again, they get more and more popular. And eventually, I think, you know, Dave and Marty and Catherine all kept telling Lorne that you should come up and see the troupe yourself. Right. So, and, which is, this almost never happens. I've never heard of Lorne leaving New York City. No. Except for the Emmys. No. Lorne flew up to Toronto. Right. So, and, which is, this almost never happens. I've never heard of Lorne leaving New York City. No.

Except for the Emmys. No, Lorne flew up to Toronto. Right. Came to a nightclub, you know, on Queen Street. Wow. And watched us do an entire show. And we did a really long show, and a lot of, we even did new sketches. Wow.

That's how arrogant we were. And so then, it was after about, and Lorne was deciding whether to take some of us to SNL. Did we say Lorne Michaels? Lorne Michaels, yes. Lorne Michaels. And so it was Lorne who decided after a few days of thinking about it that he didn't want to break the group up.

Good for him. Yeah. So he decided he wasn't going to take anyone to Saturday Night Live, and he was going to try and find a place to do a Kids in the group up. Good for him. Yeah. So he decided he wasn't going to take anyone to Saturday Night Live and he was going to try and find a place to do a Kids in the Hall show. And he flew us all down to New York for six months to write and to be hardened, as he said. Wow.

I'm sure that doesn't happen anymore. No, it was amazing. I mean, and Lauren, you know, as I said, it was totally Lauren's call that the Kids in the Hall still exists. Because if he was going to take some of us to Saturday Night Live, that would have been the end of it. That's weird. Would you have gone? Oh, my God, yes.

Oh, yeah. Oh, I still wish. Screw those guys. So Kids in the Hall runs for a while, and then you end up living in L.A., right? Yeah, we do our five years as kids, and then I got hired to do news radio right after that. That's what I was going to say, because news radio, you were doing that around about the time I started on the Drew Carey show. Yes, because you guys are what finally killed us.

No. Really? Oh, yeah, because there was a guy in charge of scheduling at NBC who had been trying to kill us since we did the pilot. Wow. He hated the show. It was named Preston Beckman. That was his name. Preston Beckman?

He hated news radio. News radio was a great show. Oh, but he just despised it and was mad that it got picked up. But he was in charge of scheduling because when we were first scheduled, we were supposed to get on that Thursday lineup.

Yeah, the Thursday, the sweet friends and Seinfeld thing. Yeah. But this guy said no. He refused to let us on. And he kept pairing us with shows that were struggling. She's the sheriff.

Yeah. But I think we originally paired with Wings that was struggling. Okay, that show lasted forever. Yes. But we brought up Wings ratings. Like once we were paired, the Wings ratings went way up. Oh, right. And so then he moved us to

sundays with mad about you which was struggling uh-huh and his ratings went ah i'm seeing a pattern yes and then then he moved us uh i forget what night it was but to with uh third rock which was also struggling at the time all right and again the pairing put the ratings up and and and our show kept building to be a top 20 show right over and over again and but he kept moving us to try and so we had like eight time slots what a dick yeah and eventually the drew carrey show came on and he put us up against drew carrey right and it was kind of a i think we were both going for the same audience in a lot of ways yeah i think that's probably right yeah so that and and that show was such a hit that I, but I, you know, I didn't

pay any attention to that show when I was doing it funnily enough, I mean, cause you were succeeding. That's what happens when you're succeeding. Yeah. You don't just, you just don't pay any attention when you're failing like us. Oh my God. When you're fair, I pay a lot of attention to my failures. You know, it's funny.

I was talking to somebody, a woman, not in show business, very intelligent, accomplished woman who's not in show business, and she was telling me how much she liked David E. Kelly's work. I was like, yeah, no doubt, he's a genius. And she said, he never fails. And I'm like, no, no, he does. He fails as much as everybody else, but you don't hear about his failures because that's what show business is.

If you succeed, people know about it. If you fail, the only people that know about it are people in show business. You go, ha ha, and that's it. That's it. See, that's American show business. Canadian show business, all anyone talks about are the failures.

Yeah. I don't know. It's been a while since I've been anywhere. I went, I did a show in Scotland, I think just before the COVID thing, so probably like 2018 or something, 2019. And I hadn't done a show in Scotland, I think, just before the COVID thing, so probably 2018 or something, 2019. I hadn't done a show in forever in Scotland. I kind of liked doing

the live thing with a live audience. But I don't know. I don't think you can go back like that once you leave. Like you did an actual TV show? No! No, I didn't do a TV show. I did one night at the Edinburgh Festival in the Playhouse,

and I liked it. But I think that's as much as I would ever do. A TV show? No, I was wondering. You would never do a sitcom for, say, BBC? I couldn't afford to. The BBC pay people. It's like, oh, that'll be, you know, 48 pounds.

And your own voucher for the canteen. I was like, oh, that'll be, you know, 48 pounds. And your own vouchers for the canteen. I was like, no. But news radio, Phil Hartman was in news radio. He was, yes. Was Phil killed during, was it during this? He was killed during the hiatus of the fourth, between the fourth and fifth season. That's a terrible, terrible story, that, isn't it?

No, it was, yes. And I was on set in toronto shooting a movie when i heard about it right yeah it's such a horrible horrible tale and that was what 98 or something no i guess yeah yeah might be around that time yeah because i remember everyone hollywood's like the whole the whole town was like, oh my God, it was crazy. Just crazy. And I don't even think TMZ existed at that point. No, I don't think so. I don't.

No, I don't think so. It was like, it was, so I think, because you were there at the time, I always thought, and then I'm not talking about Phil Hartman, but I'm talking about the time in Hollywood in the 90s, the late 90s, that was covered expertly in BoJack Horseman, actually, I think. Oh, I have to watch more. I haven't watched the whole series. Oh, BoJack is great, man. It nails life in Hollywood. I started watching it, and then I didn't follow. Oh, no, you got it. It's insanely good. But in the mid to late 90s, and early 2000s really as well, I thought Hollywood felt kind of like a sleepy

sort of a place do you know what i mean it was kind of yeah quiet ish you know maybe it's because my life was quiet yeah i suppose that but show business felt uh different then it did it felt yeah it felt like less dangerous yeah it was really it was nice it kind of was you, it was really, it was nice. It kind of was. You know, it was like, you know, you didn't expect to get attacked all the time publicly for making some dumb joke, which is great, because my career has been almost entirely dumb jokes. Yeah, there was no

social media. Right. I think social media is like, I'm all for technology. I'm all for smartphones and like, you know, electronic, you know, age extension, penis extension, whatever the hell

you got going on. Yeah. Oh, my penis is over four feet long now. Well, that's the electronic, that's the wonder

of digitization. Yeah. Mine, I haven't begun working mine yet, but, you know. I use mine

as a walking stick. Well, you know, age comes for us all. But the thing is about it, I think with the social media, I find myself, I really hate it. And you have to do it. It's kind of like people say, oh, you have to do it. Do I have to?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember doing, I'm not to say this sitcom, Dr. Ken, right. That was the first show I was on where they had a social media person. Right. That was their job. And then we would have to do, we would all, the whole cast would have to

gather in a room to do live tweeting or, you know, of the episode that's airing. I had a conversation with Kevin Bacon about this very thing he was pissed about it because he I can't remember which show he was working on but he said

it was a drama you know it's Kevin Bacon he's a proper actor and he was not that you aren't but you know yeah I'm not

but Kevin is and I was talking to him about it and he said it's so weird because they want me to live tweet you know the

show going out and the entire job is me trying to convince everyone that i'm not kevin bacon but at the same time putting out stuff saying oh i remember this day it was really cold and we had you know our coffee was late arriving ruining the show absolutely the wrong thing yeah but i think that everything has turned into something different which is i suppose one of the effects of living long enough that you you start saying because i notice when i drive my family around i say my kids you know that kfc that used to be different back then. Oh, yeah. And the the generation right now the zoomers, a lot of people say bad things

about them. And I'm I'm happy to join in. They're fucking Jesus, what a bunch of touchy uptight fucker. I know. Well, I have to say I'm delighted that my daughter and her friends are fully aware that they are part of the worst generation of all time. It's not, look, I'm sure if they were called on to do something spectacular, they'd probably rise to the occasion. And it's a ludicrous idea to say a whole generation of people is, but the art and the fashion and the popular culture right now i'm like fuck you can keep it like when are you gonna be nostalgic for that shit in 20 years yeah i don't think so

no who'll be recycling your shit like my shit my 70s and 80s 90s shit is being recycled like a motherfucker by these guys but yeah well they say my my daughter's teaching me about my own use right exactly my own use i Right, exactly. My own youth. That stuff's being recycled. Who's going to recycle what's going on now? No. But they might. I don't know.

Oh, yeah. I think it's part of the aging process, I guess, is you complain about the youth. But I don't think all the youth. Just the ones I hear about. It's just, it's a weird, and it's largely our fault as the people that gave birth to this generation. Well, maybe. That we, uh, I was reading. Everyone gets a trophy.

There's the study. Well, it's also just that we, in our paranoia, we didn't allow our children any space. Yeah. To become individuals, to, to, to, to take risks, get hurt and cope with being hurt you know yeah and because we you know we we protected them and sheltered them so much for no real reason because it was like no because statistically it wasn't any more dangerous than any other time no in fact probably it was much more dangerous uh there were probably more incidents of of harm to children back in the 60s you're right then we're uh in one year in the 90s here in the 60s. You're right. Than in the 90s and 2000s.

I remember hearing about shit that was going on when I was a kid in the 60s. Jesus Christ. There was some awful shit going down. So we siloed our kids away from the world. Right. Did everything for them. They never learned how to even navigate around the block. Right.

They never walked to school on their own. They were never sent to the store to buy bread. Right. You know, all the things I was doing when I was six years old. Right. You know, your alcoholic father. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Everyone should have an alcoholic father. Buy me some smokes. I wonder though, if it's not just a product of aging that you just complain about the youth. Well, I don't know. Well, cause this is, this is sort just a product of aging that you just complain about the youth. Well, I don't know. This is sort of a sociological study.

Basically, there's a period of time in your life when you should be going out and individuating and taking risks. And our kids didn't. So we have kids who are ill-equipped to handle risk. Or conflict. Yes, or conflict. And then at the same time, we give them this technology that makes them feel under threat all the time. Yeah, I know.

And that allows them to destroy each other. Yeah. So we give them technology that is absolutely destructive. And we give them no skills to cope with it and it's a terrible mixture so what's going to happen next then what are they going to do with their kids if they have any kids well their kids well they won't there won't be many of them what i said right now they said all what we're going through now will end when your kids are old enough to hate you yeah and that's that's common. Yeah. I noticed that.

There are changes afoot. Yeah. I mean, look, if I have one discernible skill, and I think this one is even doubtful, but if I have one discernible skill, it's being able to read the room. And I'm kind of going, things are changing again. Yeah.

Because they always do. Yeah. Well, I mean, back in the 80s. again. Yeah. Because they always do. Yeah. Well, I mean, back in the 80s. Right. Right. It's a tricky time for me. I was pretty chemical in the 80s. Yeah. But in the 80s is when the term politically correct came about.

Yes, that's right. I do remember that. Yeah. And like us and the kids and all, we were, you know, people would always, we'd always have to be interviewed about, you know, how do you feel about political correctness? That's right. I remember Bill Maher had that politically incorrect show. I used to go on it all the time.

And one of the greatest achievements of the political correct movement is that they managed to make Andrew Dice Clay a stadium performer. That's right. As a reaction. Right. They took a really mediocre, is that too generous a term? I think it's kind of, yeah, it's nice, but you're a nice guy. Yeah.

All right. So a really mediocre comedian and turned him into a guy that can play multiple nights at Madison Square Garden. He was huge. Yeah. And that, you know, and that's how political correctness paid off in the 80s. Right. You know, and we would ask about it and we'd always say, look, we believe in it. We believe that political correctness is just about being aware of people and their history and what's been done to them and wanting to be sensitive to it.

And we're all in favor of that. But we don't think you can tell us that there's something that isn't funny or something you can't joke about. Well, that's the interesting thing about comedy is because it's completely subjective. Like my father used to say when we were watching Top of the Pops in Britain, when punk rock was going on, he would go, that's not music. That's just a noise. And I'd go, well, that's kind of what music is, that. It's a noise that's arranged in certain different sequences

that you find either pleasing or not pleasing. That's what it is. I didn't quite say that at the time because I was like 14, but I remember thinking, no, Dad, you don't understand. But people say that about comedy all the time. They say, oh, that's not comedy. And you go, well, all these motherfuckers that are laughing disagree with you. So clearly it is a matter of opinion what is funny and what's not.

And I think that that's kind of interesting because there is at this point, it's really interesting that if you don't share the opinion of a group of people, they try and invalidate you by not having that opinion. Which I don't understand. Yes. It's like in a political debate, you know, in the political arena, if you take the most contentious political stance, say, well, all these people are wrong. Well, all these people think you're wrong. So perhaps the job is not trying to make these people think like you, but create a society where everyone can think different things and still be treated with decency.

And that seemed like that was the target when we were young. I seem to remember it being the thrust of it. That we were working towards. As I said, i felt like we were trying to dissolve the definitions that separated people into different categories right you know we were trying to dissolve the the the gender differences and the racial differences exactly and so that they would not be a consideration a catcher you know categorizing people based on an instant decision you know or large groups of people yeah whereas and now it feels like the goal is to create narrower and narrower definitions for different sections of humanity.

Yeah. It's like everyone's defining themselves in these very narrow contexts. Which is totally fine, I think, as long as you don't try and invalidate everyone else who isn't like you. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. Over my career, I've built and helped run multiple seven-figure businesses that leverage culture and built successful brands. Now I want to share what I've learned with you.

And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. On every episode, we get the inside scoop on how these leaders tap into culture to build something amazing. So we get the inside scoop on how these leaders tap into culture to build something amazing. From exclusive interviews to business breakdowns, we'll explore the journey of turning passion for culture into business. Whether you're just getting started or an established business owner, Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. This is Butternomics. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes

glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down and out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians,

actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation, just not feeling stressed, just not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you.

So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Would you want to live forever? I don't know.

I used to. I used to really want to live forever because I didn't want to miss anything. I didn't want to. I really want to. Well, you'd be missing death then. I mean, that might be the best part. I know. Well, that's what I'm starting to think these days.

But I used to always just want to, you know, I wanted to know what's, because I kept, I was very obsessed with science and technology and I wanted to see what was coming next, what cool things were going to happen. Yeah. And I was an atheist, so. Bet you're not anymore. Well, I'm still to happen. Yeah. And I was an atheist, so... Bet you're not anymore.

Well, I'm still an atheist. Sure. But... But? There's no but in atheism. You either are or you aren't. No, I'm an atheist, but I'm no longer as steadfastly a materialist as I was.

Okay. See, I'm no longer an atheist. I was at a certain point an atheist, and now I'm like, it's far too arrogant a stance to take. It is an unscientific, ludicrous position to take. I don't know about that. Oh, I do. For my,

I feel like if you say this is the definitive, there is definitively no deity. That's like based on what? But that isn't the definition of an atheist. There is definitively no deity. That's based on law. But that isn't the definition of an atheist. What is it then? The definition of an atheist is I don't believe there's a God.

Not that I know there isn't. I don't believe there's a God. Yeah. I don't have a belief that there is a God. Right. And a theist is someone who does believe there's a God. Well, I'm a theist. But a theist can't prove there is a God or isn't a God either. Absolutely, I can't prove it at all.

And neither can an atheist, but one believes, one doesn't. Right. So, like, the true definition of, that's why I always say agnostic doesn't mean anything. Right. Because it's really just, you know, for people that hope they can, it'll be a loophole. It's either bad. Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

But agnostic does mean, I mean, ag means without and gnostic means knowledge. So it means without knowledge. So it's fair to say I am without knowledge, isn't it? Yes, but being a theist has nothing to do with knowledge. It has to do with belief.

There's no knowledge in being a theist. Well, unless you define what you see as evidence. You have to design what evidence. If you go, well, you know, the fact that, you know, what raises my suspicions that it might be a god is when I see a dog using a crosswalk. I think, hmm, there may be more to this than I thought.

But evidence isn't proof. It's not. That's true. That is not proof. I could not prove it. But at the same time, did you see Miracle on 34th Street when they had to prove Santa was real? Yes. I can't remember the end of that movie.

Did they prove Santa was real? Well, they didn't. Right. But the movie tells you he's real. But they threw a legal trickery. Right. Yeah, they brought in all the mail from the U.S. Post Office. And that proved Santa was real. And the judge said, well, I'm not going to argue with the United

States government. And then Santa is real. Yeah. Well, okay. So that's not bad. Here's what I thought. I've become quite interested recently in Rene Descartes. Yes. Who, as you know, is the, I would say, arguably the father of modern philosophical thought, right? Yep, yeah, yeah. All right, so his famous thing is about, I think, therefore I am. Yes. But leading up to it, of course, the reason why he gets to that point is he wants to use reason to prove the existence of God or approach the existence of God using reason instead of revelation. So using, basically basically belief, right?

So he says, okay, what I'll do is I'll begin by doubting everything. I doubt everything. So he doubts everything. And so if you doubt everything, including the existence of God, I doubt all, the existence of myself, the existence of everything. I doubt everything. The only thing that is impossible to doubt is that you are doubting. And if you are doubting, that is cognitive.

That's a decision. You are thinking. And if you are thinking, you exist. Cognito ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. And I think, oh, that's quite a good way of going about it. And he approaching the existence of God, talking about the proofs of the existence of God,

one of which I found fascinating is that all societies have an appetite. Even atheists have an appetite for God. Even if you dismiss the existence of God, you still discuss it, right? There is an appetite for it. And for every appetite, there is a satiation of an appetite. For lust, there is sex. For hunger, there is food. So in the natural scheme of things, he used reason as the appetite.

The desire for the existence of God is a proof of the existence of God. Yes. Well, I would— I reject Rene Descartes. I do. Good. That's good. But in part,

I think it's an appetite for meaning, not an appetite for God. Well, then it's semantics. Meaning and God are the same thing. No, they aren't. Oh, I think so. No, God is just one form of meaning. No, God is a huge word.

I mean, look, is God angry Santa on a cloud? Don't be absurd. Is God, you know, the definition of intelligent design or something beyond the pale? Then I think, yes, God. Well, here's the view I came to over the years was that through evolution, our brains, one of the few advantages we have from an evolutionary standpoint was that we develop a brain that could codify the world in terms of meanings.

Right. And that gradually led to language. Right. And communities and civilizations and societies. But it's that initial state of a brain that gives meaning to things. A brain that picks up a rock and breaks it and goes, hmm, that's not just a broken rock right now. That's a tool

or a weapon. That sharp edge. And we're able to sort of rise above our limitations because we're frail animals. We're shitty. We can't run fast. Our teeth are useless. We have no claws. Opposable thumbs though. Pretty good.

But not so good against a tiger. Okay, fair enough. You know, like, ha-ha! Like these babies! Rawr! Yeah. So that's how we survived as a species was by giving meaning to objects. And, like, for example, this is a table not because of anything intrinsic about it.

It's only a table because we say it's a table and agree it's a table. A cat doesn't know it's a table, so a cat will sleep on it. Right. So we have a brain that is constantly encoding everything around us in terms of meaning. So that's good. Yes, but it also means that at some point you go,

oh, I'm going to die. How do I give meaning to that? But I don't think it's about death. Well, I think it is. I think it is about death. For me, think it is. I think it is about death. For me, it's not. For me, it's not. I'm quite happy to admit that with the end of life, there is nothing.

Yeah, but as a society, as a species, we don't do that. And even that, you're ascribing a kind of meaning to death as well. Well, I suppose that's true you know and my thought was all right so the human brain is incapable of observing anything without giving it meaning good right i like where you're going so i would say that even to other atheists i said so even as an atheist you're going to adopt some system of meaning and it may be just as ludicrous and unfounded as any religious system of meaning right you know like you may uh decide that you're gonna you're gonna your meaning comes from having children or your meaning comes from rejecting religion which is not necessarily god

or meaning or art or art or something you know like a lot of artists who are atheists say well you know i create my art and that's where my meaning comes from right and i would say to them well that's stupid right because if we're correct you're going to die and all the things you've created will be immediately meaningless to you you know because if we die and it ends then everything is meaningless and so you just have to kind of accept that if that's the reality if time is linear you're correct but if time is not linear i mean time is only a construct of humans trying to give meaning to yes the in the area in which they exist well that's so if time is not linear yes then it's all which it probably isn't i would imagine it's probably not as simple as we think well that's the thing is where I'm heading to is that that was the belief I had

until over the last less than 10 years. Okay. And here's the, and my route to this came through looking at the UFO phenomena. Ah. You know, which I don't know if you know this, but I actually do a podcast about UFOs now. But it, yeah, and it came up,

basically I started, you know, it's something I was always interested in. Right. I would but it, yeah. And it came up, basically I started, you know, it's something I was always interested in. Right. But take it sort of seriously when something really crazy would happen and then, and then would sort of buy the stories and go, oh, well, I'll ignore it for now. Right. And then, uh, but like about 10 years ago, you know, sort of, I saw a documentary that was so compelling that it got me thinking, I really should look at this a little closer. Right. And that was a movie called Out of the Blue by James Fox. And it just went through the history of modern UFO phenomena and was interviewing people

who had had, you know, really credible people who had had really amazing encounters and a lot of real data. There's a lot of real data on it. And I thought, all right, I I gotta keep an open mind about this and like many people who get into that subject eventually you wind up in a place where you're realizing that a lot of the phenomena is about consciousness and about how it interacts with consciousness and then you start looking at how well how does consciousness work and then you wind up getting into things like well looking at things like near-death

experiences and and you and what is death and taking that seriously so once you open this aperture of what you're willing to look at all the things you've been told are are silly and unscientific but they keep happening anyway and one of them's you know is like the actually i just watched this great documentary on youtube called Rethinking Death from New York University Hospital, a Parnia lab. And these are really mainstream medical people who have come a long way from even just a few years ago where they're not dismissing near-death experiences. In fact, they're saying that right now because we've extended the length of time that we can bring someone back after they've died. Right. Like over an hour. Right. Like people are dead for over an hour and they're being revived right and having

these stories of experiences right and they've even changed the term from near-death experience to recalled experience of death because they're saying these people weren't near dead they were they were seriously dead almost completely or in fact dead. Yes. Pining for the fjords. Yes. Right. Yeah. And knowing that from people who have had encounters with, with, uh, with UFOs and that so much of it is, is, is an encounter that isn't about the material world, then I'm no

longer materialist because there's just too much evidence. longer materialist because there's just too much evidence see i i don't think that ties with atheism at all because i feel like if you say if your definition is atheism and theism is and theist is someone who believes in a god and an atheist is someone who does not believe in a god then what you're saying i i think i'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying, but what I take from that is to not believe is a non-scientific stance because it shuts down the avenue of exploration. I don't, you know, if you say I don't believe in a God, I find that too didactic and non-scientific. If I can say I believe in a God, which I have absolutely no idea what that is, but I believe more than I don't believe.

But how can one belief be more didactic than the other? Well, I'll tell you why. If you take the idea of St. Augustine of Hippo, an early theologian in the Christian church, who said, trying to understand the mind of God is like trying to pour the ocean into a cup. If you take the mortal and human limitations of the cognitive process of human beings, if we are talking about a deity or a thrust or something which is bigger than humanity, then it would be, you can't get something that big into something that small. It won't work. It just doesn't work. So all you're saying is, I believe that there is something there. Do I believe it's angry Santa on a cloud or, you know, baby Jesus with swaddling clothes?

No, I don't go with any of that. But there are aspects of all religions which I find, in the same way you find about the UFO thing, I go, I'm going to take this a little more seriously, because actually, there's some very, very clever people who are not atheists. And that's kind of what drew me in. So, I mean, you take C.S. Lewis, or Socrates, or Albert Einstein, or there's quite a lot of them. Rene Descartes, you know. You know, there are people who are immensely clever and deep thinkers who steer the other way. And I'm more inclined to do that. So I don't see any real argument between the UFO interest

and the interest in God. But I don't think atheism in any way has ever shut down me from examining the world. In fact, it's made me more likely. I'm not talking about examining the world. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about examining the existence of a deity beyond, or of a deity. Yeah, but I'm saying I can be open to the idea

that there is a deeper reality without it necessarily being connected to a God. Well, I think you have to define what God is. What is our God and what is God? And at that point, you know, it's... Because, you know, I tend to, you know, I guess I'll go with Bertrand Russell over... Bertrand Russell, excellent.

Yeah, Bertrand Russell. Great atheist thinker. Yeah, a great atheist thinker, no doubt. But also at the same time, you're working alongside C.S. Lewis, who was a great theist thinker. But the theists're working alongside C.S. Lewis, who was a great theist thinker. But the theists... Also, C.S. Lewis, Principa Mathematica from Bertrand Russell, very good.

But is it the Narnia Chronicles? No, it's not. No, it's not. Yeah. It's fascinating. Yeah. You know, what I do like is this. You're my friend, and we can be on wildly opposing ends of this argument and enjoy the argument.

Yeah. C.S. Lewis, H.G. Wells, wildly opposing ends of the argument, friends. Yes. People now, wildly opposing ends of an argument of belief, can't seem to be friends. I don't understand it. I know, which is sad because... That's how you fucking learn stuff. There's nothing less interesting than agreement.

Sadly, I agree. You've painted me into a comedic corner. Yeah. But I mean, I used to always, you know, tell my kids, I said, you know, I said, the only arguments you learn from are the ones you lose. Right, right. You know, like winning like i've learned a lot today yeah yeah but like winning an argument is is who cares about winning an argument i know

nothing more than i knew before right and also winning it's just a ludicrous idea to win an argument you don't win an argument that's like winning a relationship yeah well what the hell is that i remember reading like pl Plato as a kid. Right. Hilarious. But it was like realizing their conversations in the dialectics sounded exactly like me and my friends hanging out. Yeah, but I think that's the appeal, isn't it? Yes, and I'm going, it's the same thinking, the same arguments, the same thoughts, the same interactions, and I'm going,

that's just how it's going to be forever. That's just what it is to be human. Search for meaning. Yeah. And it's just going to be that way forever. Right. Like you said, the search for meaning, the desire for meaning. Yeah.

And I believe, I mean, my belief still is that the human brain is incapable of perceiving meaninglessness unless you're suffering a severe brain damage or you are psychotic. And people who can perceive meaninglessness generally will either commit murder or suicide. Yeah, it does sound like a despairing place to be. And it's something that 99.9999% of the population are incapable of anyway. Right. We're incapable of it. Like, I can't look at a table and not see a table. I can't do it.

You know you can drink past that. Oh, I have. Yeah. Well, it's been a pleasure and will continue to be a pleasure for as long as we are able to do it, Dave. Yes. Oh, my God. It's so lovely running into you.

It's great running into you. And let's do it again. And next time, let's talk Oh my God. It's so lovely running into you. It's great running into you and let's do it again. And next time let's talk more about God. Okay. No, let's talk less about God and more about drugs. Oh, okay. All right. Or, or maybe just do the same again. Yeah. Psychedelics. I'll talk. Oh man, I do not care for them. No, no, I never liked psychedelics. Oh, Jesus. Worst time of my life. I took acid like 30-something times just to make sure. Yeah. Man, it was bad.

It was bad from the first one. I don't know why I did it again. I like mushrooms. I only took mushrooms once because I hated them so much. Oh, my God. I hated mushrooms. Do you still do the psyches? Yeah. Are you tripping right now? so much. Oh my God. I hated mushrooms. Do you still do the psyches? Yeah. Oh yeah. But there, I mean,

are you tripping right now? No, I'm actually having trouble getting psychedelics to work right now. I've tried DMT twice and couldn't get it to work. Well,

we've run out of time. Listeners. I'm Angie Martinez. And on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business.

Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Will? What's up, Mango? I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we've done over 250 episodes, we don't really talk about murders or cults. I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do

dollar stores make money. And then of course, can you game a dog show? So what you're saying is everyone should be listening. Listen to part-time genius on the I heart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.