Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - David Itzkoff

Episode Date: October 3, 2023

Meet David Itzkoff, an American journalist, writer and former cultural reporter for the New York Times. If you would like to catch up on everything culture, this is the episode for you! Don’t miss David’s books Cocaine’s Son: A memoir and Robin, a biography of Robin Williams and many others. EnJOY! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said, like, in my head for, like, 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez.

And on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad. And I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Will?

What's that, Mango? I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we've done over 250 episodes, we don't really talk about murders or cults. I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money.

And then, of course, can you game a dog show? So what you're saying is everyone should be listening. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Craig Ferguson letting you know that I am bringing the Fancy Rascal Tour to the majestic Southwest this weekend. October 7th at the Wild Horse Pass Hotel and Casino in Chandler, Arizona, which is in the Phoenix area. October 8th at the Fox Tucson Theater Chandler, Arizona, which is in the Phoenix area. October the 8th at the Fox Tucson Theater

in Tucson, Arizona, which is in the Tucson area. For tickets, go to my website, thecraigfergusonshow.com. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness.

Meet David Itzkoff, former culture reporter for the New York Times, and now just culture writer for anybody, including the New York Times. He's very clever about the culture. He's very clever about the culture. I feel like if we'd have got a second season of Join or Die, it might have been worth watching. But we were talking about how formats can lead you astray. Yes.

And I did a show called Join or Die after I finished in the late night, which you were openly laughing at just seconds ago. I'm laughing at everything you do, sometimes for the right reasons, sometimes for the wrong reasons. How are you, pal? I'm good. I'm really flattered that you invited me to your little chess competition room. My booth.

Yes. Yeah, this is a booth where we do, but it's a podcast booth. I take it with me around the country, my little booth. I set it up and I interview not always luminaries like the culture. Are you the editor yet at the New York Times? You know, it's an interesting thing. I am departed in the fall so that I could focus on a book project. I still write for them. I still write for other publications.

You're not actually on the payroll anymore. No, no, it was a big step. And I've been almost a year now. Are you a Republican now then? Is that what it is? It's like, I no longer write for the New York Times. And I'm running. I can let my freak flag fly.

But that's interesting. Because I think of you as a New York Times guy. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think it's something that will always be in my blood. The tattoo is not coming off for whatever reason. You don't have any tattoos.

I do have a tattoo. Do you really? You know why? You're going to remember when I explain this to you. One of my tattoos is of Sid Vicious because you were kind enough

to introduce me to Steve Jones on the best day of my life. You know, I have to say I've known Jonesy for a long time. And if meeting Jonesy is the best day of your life, we really have to help you. Because he's like, do you know what? Do you know what?

The last time I saw him, we were talking about the movie Bohemian Rhapsody. And he said to me, oh, yeah, I saw Bohemian Rhapsody. Apparently Freddie Mercury me oh yeah I saw Bohemian Rhapsody apparently Freddie Mercury was a really nice bloke I had no idea must have went buy me that bit oh man if I could have heard him say that live I think I would have just fallen on the floor

it was pretty funny do you still listen to Jonesy's yeah he's great I love him it's wild to me that like that's almost more of his identity now than being... I mean, yes, he'll always have his role in punk rock, but... Well, the Sex Pistols is a pretty decent band. And to create the guitar sound that he did.

And he really did. But he's like an elder statesman, too. And he's got all this institutional knowledge and he dispenses it to the next generation. That's such a fun, like that's clearly not what he imagined himself doing 50 years ago. It's weird.

He got, when I did started doing the puppets on Late Night, it was from Jonesy. Oh. Because I was listening, I was driving to work one day, driving to school, I was going to say. So I was driving to work one day driving to school I was going to say

so I was driving because it felt like fucking CBS get in there Mr. Ferguson and do your podcast oh no it wasn't a podcast

then what was it talk to those celebrities it was like a podcast with pictures it kind of was badly lit podcast but the I was on the way driving driving to work one day,

and I was listening to Jonesy's Jukebox, which is Steve Jones' radio show in L.A., and he played Frank Ifield singing She Taught Me to Yodel, which is a song from the 19, I guess, 1950s. She taught me to yodel, Yodel-o-dly. And I thought, my God, that is so messed up. I'm going to put that on the show tonight. And I did.

I put it on the show that night, and I lip-synced to it with a puppet. Anyway, that was about me. So listen, what's the book project that you quit your perfectly decent job for? See, I knew this was going to happen. I'm kind of keeping it under wraps, and it'll be out in the world about a year from now. And at that time...

You don't want to talk about it? Yeah, I'm just, you know, for various reasons, I'm also a little superstitious. And, you know, suffice to say, it was a very cool opportunity, and I just couldn't pass it up. All right, hold on a second. Here's the clue that came in there. So you're a little superstitious. Yeah. Is it superstitious or is it OCD?

No, I don't think it's OCD, but if you want to call it anxiety. Anxiety. Yeah. Why are you anxious? I mean, the first book, I think was the first book you wrote, Cocaine's Son. That was one of the first. Right. But yes, you were very kind. The first the first book you wrote, Cocaine's Son. That was one of the first. Right. But yes, you were very kind.

It's the first one I read. Yes, thank you. Right. Yeah, you were kind to support me in that era. Thank you. Well, listen, if you were writing a book about being raised by a cocaine-addicted father, I felt like, given the way that I had lived right about the same time, I felt it was only, how are things going in that department now?

Well, you know, I mean, my dad passed away in 2019, but I have a son. I'm very sad to hear that. That's okay. I appreciate that. But he, you know, my son is eight and a half

and it's interesting because, you know, I mean, of course, like I have copies of the book, you know, not like prominently displayed in the household, but on like the family, you know, I have like a bookshelf in my own room with some of my books on it. And he, you know, not like prominently displayed in the household, but on like the family, you know, I have like a bookshelf in my own room with some of my books on it.

And, you know, for many years, you know, my son would walk past the bookshelf and he would just know that those were books of mine and had no curiosity about them. And now little by little, he can read the titles on the spines, but he keeps passing that and he thinks that the title is Canine's Son. And I don't have... Good idea for a kid's book.

Good idea. Here comes the franchise. It's my day. The heartwarming story. Raised by a dog, he became the culture reporter on the New York Times. So he doesn't know, you know, what, and first of all, he doesn't know what it really says,

and he doesn't know why. Yeah. But I'm not saying that he should in any way follow the trajectory that I did, but I learned about my dad's addiction when I was 10, I want to say. Like, that's when it was made explicit to me, and of course, I had many other clues before that.

Well, yeah, but your son's having a very different experience. I sure hope so, yeah. Yeah, I mean. I mean, you know, yes. One side effect or impact of having the upbringing that I did is that I want to be dedicated to him in every way possible. And it wounds me terribly if I ever feel like I miss any kind of, you know, transitional moment in his life or just even a day that he wants me to come to school to see something.

And, oh, I already had a commitment that day and I can't make it. It's awful, isn't it? It stabs you in the heart. Yeah. I feel exactly the same. My kids are getting older now, so they're a bit more kind of like, yeah, all right, Dad, it's okay. Yeah.

I'm on a date. I really don't need you to be here. You don't need to be two rows back at the theater. Yeah. That's right. But it is, it's kind of, it is an odd thing, because are you a helicopter-y parent, do you think? No, I mean, I will let him give me the assessment at some point,

but I feel like I'm probably way, like I'm probably more neurotic about it and more like tunnel focused on it than I need to be. I think about how even in the right ways that I was raised growing up, you know, my parents gave me a lot of latitude and like, you know, I was already riding public transportation in New York City probably by the age of 10. Yeah, see, that's not great though, Dave.

You know that. You know, I mean, I can't say good or ill, but that was how kids of my generation, I mean, we were all latchkey kids. That part was terrible. Right, that's true. I don't think that that really had any positive impact on us. But the amount of just, you know, trust and independence that we were offered that I find, I can't even fathom it. I can't think about myself. I'm trying to think of how old he's going to be when he's allowed to cross the street by himself. Could be age 15 at this rate.

My oldest boy, I let him get on an airplane to cross the Atlantic to see his grandpa when he was 15. And I took him all the way. It was in Glasgow. We were in Scotland. And I went to the airport and the lady said, you're not allowed to come behind the barrier while I ask him the security questions. I said, he's 15. She said, yes, but you can't come behind the barrier.

So there was a barrier between me and him. Just like a piece of rope. So I stood right next to him, and there was a rope, and she was asking him questions, and she kept looking at me saying, you have to maintain a distance. I'm not letting you take my kid away. And it got ugly. They saw you signaling with semaphore flags.

They said, none of that. It's a weird thing, because he's 15, I'm embarrassing him. He's like, oh, dad, for God's sake. Well, do they think that you're going to give him hints on the questions or something? Yeah, I know. So they're saying, did anyone pack your bags for you? Yeah, my mom. It's crazy.

Anyway, so here's the thing. You're raising your boy now, but it's making you think about your own childhood. Because that's what happened to me when my boys were young. I was like, oh, God. And it goes back and you think about, does it help you in your perspective about your father's problems back then? Do you find yourself more or less forgiving?

Have you changed your perspective since the writing of the book? Yeah, I mean, probably not for the better, I would have to say, you know. It's a tough thing to reckon with, but I think I'm probably less forgiving. When I find myself doing just commonplace, everyday dad type things. Literally, get up in the morning and make pancakes for my son. Right. I try to think about, would my dad have ever done this for me? He would have still been awake, but no making pancakes.

If he was in the apartment at all, right? Yeah, man. So, yeah, I mean, I know it's not healthy and it's not great. The pancakes are healthy and great, but my attitude is not. But there is a kind of nostalgia because you're a culture guy, right? You report and comment and investigate our artistic journeys that we make as a society. Thank you for assessing me. Right, I'm assessing you that way. Very lofty, but thank you.

Right. Well, I give you a little more credence because you used to work for the New York Times. I get that for maybe one more year and then the glow is gone. I get it. But the thing is, there's a lot of nostalgia now for that time,

that kind of Stranger Things type, nostalgia for that period when you were little. And I'm like, it wasn't so great. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I'm trying to remember the James Gray movie that came out last year, Armageddon Time, which was set in New York, like right at the turn of 1980. And a kid, you know, growing up in one of the outer

boroughs, I think, I'm pretty sure it was Brooklyn. And, you know, has a fairly like placid family life, like no, you know, no drug abuse, no conflict of like that degree. But also, I thought was very good at illustrating like just the sort of the vibe of being an 80s kid in New York and the challenges that probably anybody would have faced growing up and the way that it would have impacted. Yeah, I mean, I found myself kind of yearning for that also of how, like, yeah, I mean, you see the family conflict and the struggles that the kid goes through. And I was like, damn, I wish I was back there right now. Right. As messy as it was.

Well, I get that. But I see this is my theory. I have a theory about I get that. But I see this is my theory about it. I have a theory about a lot of things. This is my theory about it. When people get nostalgic for that kind of thing, you're not really nostalgic for the time. You're just nostalgic for being young, when your body worked differently,

when it was all in front of you. Yeah. And things were a little different because when I look back on it, I don't get nostalgic for Glasgow in the 1970s. I don't think anyone would get nostalgic for that. But in a way, yeah. Yeah. Because you go, well, and when you hear particularly old comedians, right?

It's like, back in the day, you know, we used to, what? It was terrible. It was terrible back in the day. You know, and it's so interesting because, like, sure, if I could, like, wave a wand or hop on a time machine and see the Glasgow of your, like, youth, of course I would. Like, all I can imagine is, like, the grittiness and the coolness. And I'm sure it wasn't any of those things for you. No, there was grittiness, and the coolness was so, it wasn't cool. But I lived in the Lower East Side of Manhattan, 1984.

Maybe we crossed paths, that would be wild. Well, let's see, what age were you then? Well, I would have been eight. Yeah, and I would have been 20. So that would have been bad. Yeah, and I would have been 20. Okay. So that would have been bad. Yeah, not hanging at the time. I feel like, though, I didn't see anyone eight years old in the lower, you know, I lived just next to Tompkins Square Park. And I don't think there were any children, there shouldn't have been any children within about a mile of that park.

And you see that park now. children within about a mile of that park and you see that park now yeah and it's very you know it's mom and pop and young families young rich families yes and i think this is a weird thing because it wasn't so hot then no but i kind of feel it's missing something a little bit because of all that danger has gone away and it it's not really it's not missing anything but i feel like it's just because i'm older yeah yeah it's interesting because my wife and i before we got married we were living in that neighborhood but like early 2000s we were living on like 11th and a and 14th and a and you're right i mean that all of that i mean the park was you know as as tranquil and safe as could be but But we remember when the first 7-Eleven moved into the neighborhood

or on our corner when they started building a Target department store. And to us, that was the end of the neighborhood. Yes. That's funny. Not when they got rid of the drugs and the crime, but when the brand names started infiltrating. I remember the corner of 11th and A, I bought cocaine off a guy on the corner there once.

It's the only time I ever actually bought cocaine on the street. Because most of the time you'd buy it from someone like, hey, there's this guy, stuff like that. And I bought cocaine on the corner. It's the only time I bought a drug and it absolutely didn't work. It was salt or something. I was like, oh my God,

this is outrageous. And I was so, I was so annoyed and I went back to complain to him but he wasn't there which I'm very, very happy about now

that he wasn't there. So you asked for his manager. I was like, I want to see your supervisor because this is awful. This cocaine is subpar. Well, on behalf of the industry, let me please take this opportunity to apologize. Well, that's fine. You're not in the cocaine distribution industry. No, no, no.

Hello, everybody. This is Craig Ferguson, letting you know that my fancy rascal tour continues throughout the fall of 2023. For a full list of dates and tickets, please go to my website, thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic, life in marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred,

Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast, Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation,

just not feeling stressed, just not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app,

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Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So listen, the culture, and I'm sure you get asked this a lot, but culture is changing, it's evolving very rapidly. It certainly is, yeah. And do you find yourself being wary when even reporting on things? Because, you know, I speak with some experience, it is quite easy to trip over your feet and get into trouble right now. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think in a very sort of weird way, I feel like almost a kind of relief that I'm not reporting, let's say, on the sort of the day-to-day of, you know, like the SAG-AFTRA

and Writers Guild strike, or even really, you know, I mean this is this is by no means the sort of most important aspect of it but it has had a trickle-down effect even on the coverage of culture that somebody who was in my position a year ago i wouldn't i you can't get access to the people that you need to tell your stories you can't write a kind of you can't write a general celebrity profile really because the vast majority of them are on strike right uh so you know but just the i think the way that the strike itself is written about and you know i think there's rightfully so so much you know i think sympathy and understanding of what it is that the actors and the writers are on strike for.

You know, I think about if I were writing a New York Times story, of course, you have to include all voices. You would have, if you talk to... See, there's your problem. Yeah, you start to get... If you include all voices in any piece at all, now that I feel is a shift in cultural reporting because it is dangerous to include a contrary or opposing position. Particularly, look, I don't want to single out the New York Times. It's no worse or better than anyone else, but it seems to take an editorial position that would imply...

Now, I don't know if this is said. I know nothing about the inner workings of the Times, so I don't know if anybody ever says we don't want to give those guys a platform, screw those guys. But it is a newspaper and you are kind of meant to, aren't you, as a journalist? Well, that's the push and pull of it all the time, I think.

And that, yes, I mean, if you just, you know, is the goal to just present voices and let an audience kind of choose what it wants to believe? Or, you know, does a reporter or a writer bring some amount of expertise and knowledgeability about a subject? And that, yeah, I mean, you can, you know, do you have to quote from somebody, regardless of who they are, if you know that they're just blowing smoke or that they're just, you know, they're

just giving you a canned statement with nothing supporting it. Well, that's a thing that with culture you're going to run into a lot. Because especially if you're covering some movie or a piece of music, you're dealing with publicists. Yes. And you're dealing with people who their job is to protect the asset. That's their job, to protect the asset. That's their job, just protect the asset. And so you're not going to get any unfiltered opinion unless you get access to the asset in real time.

And the asset is, a lot of them now are savvy enough to, it's really about marketing. Well, I think people are hyper aware of, you know, if you are an individual, if you're a personality and you know what this is like, I mean, how much is sort of on your shoulders at any given moment and just the reality of being a public figure and what it means to be in an interview situation, even if it's not, you know, you don't enter into it confrontationally. But I think it doesn't have to be. All you have to do is just leave a sentence lying around that can be turned into clickbait and it becomes dangerous for you. And that's why I think publicists are very nervous about interviews. Now, if you say like a big movie star is going for

like, do you remember that terrible trouble Liam Neeson got into? Yes. Because he said something really off-color. Yes. I remember them sort of, I mean, he came back onto the TV show Atlanta and kind of made fun of himself for it. And that seemed to

help clear the air. But that took, that was a process of like two or three years before he could get to that. And he got in a lot of trouble for speaking in an unguarded way. I mean, look, what he said wasn't good. No. But. I mean, he was trying to speak. I'm not even defending the content. But yeah, he was trying to sort of say something that seemed honest to him in the moment.

And yes, of course, yes, he was, you know, knocked down for that. God, it was like seagulls on a fish supper. It was like, ah! So, if you were doing it now, and say you were interviewing, like... Well, do you want me to tell you a true story? Sure, yeah. I mean, I just hope it's not too sensitive because it involves, you know, your successor at CBS. I mean, one of the last pieces that I wrote for The Times as a full-time reporter, it was about James Corden in the midst of, you know, everything that had happened.

Oh, yeah. This back and forth that he was having with the owner of Balthazar. And he and I already had an interview that was scheduled about a week later. He was going to be in New York, and he had this, you know, really terrific TV miniseries that he was starring in, and that was what we were ostensibly there to speak about. And to his credit, he didn't cancel the interview.

Yeah, I would have totally canceled the interview. Yeah, I mean, that was... Yeah, I don't know the fucking way I'm talking about that. Dave, I'm not talking to you, man. Look, that is a legitimate, you know, way that he could have approached it, or they could have just said, look, it's too hectic a time, or make up some excuse. COVID. Yeah, COVID. I got COVID.

Exactly, exactly. Now, I thought, to his credit, he came to the interview and we're having like a late breakfast at the hotel that he's staying at. How was he with the waiter? Was he rude to the waiter? Well, of course, this is, you know, the table right next to us. Like we're two minutes into our conversation and we hear the people next to us, one of the diners chastising their waiter. And he, you know, he makes a little face about it, gives me a little, and he makes a funny comment on it.

But as our conversation progresses, and I make a couple of sort of attempts to just engage him on the subject and what has happened, and first he sort of acts like he doesn't know what's going on, or, oh, what could you be talking about? I mean, it's stupid me. I still think he's being sarcastic or playful like it's just it's a bit but as we got further and further it was clear he was very to my mind very angry still definitely mad at me for even asking

about it right and as if it wouldn't you know know, there was no, listen, there was certainly no sort of prearranged agreement of what we would or would not talk about. And his publicist had said to me that morning, the interview can still happen, but you can't ask him about this. I would have said, no, we obviously can't do it under those terms. Right. So it was very surprising to me that just thing, again, in my naivete and stupidity, that it would play out that way. Well, why did it play out? Did he get really mad at you? Yeah.

I mean, it was very, you know, not, you know, just I've had very good, comfortable experiences with him in the past. I know when things are tense. And it was very tense. And I still said to him at the end, you know, I know this wasn't necessarily pleasant for you, but I thank you for, you know, coming. And, you know, again, it's just like another sort of fusillade was unleashed at me before it ended. And, you know, at minimum, if you're, I assume if you're a public figure, a quote-unquote celebrity, you have to be aware that the words you're saying right now to a reporting person with a digital tape recorder in front of you that those are going to go into the newspaper as you said them you know it's an interesting thing though because you get someone who's like i know what it's like to end one of

those shows look i i don't know what happened that day in the restaurant and i don't know what happened in the in the conversation with you and James but I do know so I just drop my water of course how convenient it's alright it's only gone into that electrical thing

so it's fine ignore those sparks it's fine well the first podcast by Candlelight yeah it's that fire is nothing to

it's not it's just it's decorative so but I know what it's like for, when I finished in Late Night, and I wanted to go, I was, I think looking back on it now,

making very bad decisions over and over and over again. We started our conversation today talking about a show called Join or Die, which I did. I should not have made that show, but I was like, I don't know what to do. And I felt like I should make that show. And it wasn't a good show and I shouldn't have done it.

But you felt like you wanted to have something to go on to. Right. And also, I had a whole team of people because I had a team then. And nobody tells you you're going to end up with a team. You end up with a team and you're like, I don't want a team. But you've got a team. And they say, no, you've got to do this. Now, Craig, up with a team. You end up with a team and you're like, I don't want a team, but you've got a team. And they say, no, you got to do this. Now, Craig, this is a thing you got to do. So my guess is that James Corden said,

I don't really want to talk to the New York Times. And his team said, you can't cancel on the New York Times. And then he said, well, tell them I don't want to talk about that. And they probably said to him, we told them. That could very well be. I think that that is, you know, I mean, because I've had experiences, sort of the inverse of it, where a publicist will say, you know, don't ask about blah, blah, blah. If you bring it up, you know, they're going to hang up on you,

they're going to walk away, whatever it is, and then you go and you have the conversation, and you talk about it, and it's totally fine. Another true story. I mean, this is going back some, but the very first time that I interviewed Paul Rubens, God bless him. Oh, God. And this was in like 2004. And, you know, it was for like the TV.

It's an obvious. Did they say to you, don't bring it up? Of course. Right. Like, of course. And I was, you know, I was very young and a little cowed, and I was like, well, I got to get this interview however it is, and I just kind of bit the bullet.

And, you know, I'm sure everybody who's ever met him, you probably met him. I never did meet him, actually, which I'm very annoyed about. I'm sorry. I mean, he's just the gentlest, like, kindest guy. Also, I ripped off his show quite a lot for my own show you know on late night i assume he forgave you yeah i hope so i don't know i never had the chance to apologize i i don't know that he bore with a couple of exceptions i don't think he bore ill will to anybody and you know just the most soft-spoken guy and like within i don't know five ten minutes of

our conversation he started talking about the arrest and in a very organic way and talking about how he knew just the effect that his the mugshot had on the public that he looked so different and his hair was down to his shoulders and it wasn't the way people were used to seeing him yeah and you know that opened the door and we i didn't i wouldn't say that we, like, dwelled on it, but of course, if you're writing about Paul Reubens, you know, you talk about that. That's part of the story,

because he was the first cancelled celebrity, I can think of. In a way. I mean, if you want to go back to... Fatty Arbuckle. Yeah, you knew it. You knew what I was going to say. Holy cow, get out of my head.

Well, Fatty Arbuckle is an interesting thing, because that's a, I mean, he was proved innocent. That's, I mean, it's, I can't even fathom, you know, in an era when all you have is like print media and radio and, you know, how information got circulated, how you, in a case where you're innocent, how you clear your name. But, you know, it's mind-boggling i i think even now i mean people like to say there's no smoke without fire which anyone who's worked in show business for two minutes can tell you it's mostly smoke and no fucking fire ever so no smoke without fire is bullshit but the the idea that he was you know that morality that 1920s you know expecting morality from movie stars yeah yeah i think that's quite current right now but people want their i mean they were like people

are getting mad at picasso for being a horrible misogynist it's not a fucking secret that Picasso was a horrible misogynist. Look at the fucking paintings! Jesus! I mean, it's not it's not, this is not new, but suddenly it's the outrage seems sometimes a little disingenuous to me. It's a little... It's hard for me you know, I mean, there are times where I

can say, yeah, I mean, I'm not talking about Picasso, but there are people who just seem to be just sort of perpetually feeding the outrage machine. And I understand why, kind of. I mean, I don't know how many months will have elapsed by the time this conversation is shared with the public. But, like, Woody Allen coming to the defense of this. How much would you hate it if you were under fire for being a misogynist? And Woody Allen says, it's terrible.

I'm on this guy's side. Shut up, Woody Allen. Stop fucking backing me up. Now, we've got some good news for you. An Oscar-winning director has come to your defense. Oh, jeez. But it is a kind of odd thing. I think that obviously it's to do with getting clicks and getting people to click on stories.

One of the kind of pivotal moments for me during the current situation, I was on one of the sites. It was BuzzFeed or, I don't know, Ectoplasm, whatever it was, whatever the site was. And I don't know if Ectoplasm, whatever it was, whatever the site was. And I don't know if ectoplasm is the site. It is now, yeah. And I saw the headline was, 10 things that will really irritate you. Why would I fucking click on that?

And I did. I fucking clicked on it. There's nothing made. There's no obligation. It's literally telling you, Craig Ferguson, do not click on this button. That could have been the headline. Do not press.

And then, of course, you press. Yes. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be,

how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go, but with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain.

I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation, just not feeling stressed,

just not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly.

Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In my new podcast, A Really Good Cry. We're going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone. We're going to go over how to regulate your emotions,

diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life. We're going to be talking with some of my best friends. I didn't know we were going to go there on this. People that I admire. When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life. Now you're talking about sympathy,

which is different than empathy, right? And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life. I already believe in myself. I already see myself. And so when people give me an opportunity, I'm just like, oh great, you see me too.

We'll laugh together. We'll cry together and find a way through all of our emotions. Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi Dabluqia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you find yourself now though, because you see how the sausage is made and you've known how it's made for a long time, do you look at it with a different eye when you hear a story about, well, let's look at James Corden's thing. When you heard that story about him, were you like, yeah, that's not a thing, or I wonder, or I've heard stories, or what? Yeah, I did wonder. Of course you wonder, right? I mean, because at the time, I mean, certainly this other fellow, Keith McNally, you know, who was the restaurant owner.

Yes. Now, I'm sure the information he was getting from his staff was real and sincere on their part, but, you know, he also has this identity as a kind of online provocateur and saying things, you know, on his account to kind of, you know, rile people up or get under their skin a little bit.

So, yeah, of course, you're just, you know, you have to have, I think, just a borderline, baseline curiosity of like, okay, what's really going on here? But what happens to curiosity in a post-truth environment? I mean, that's what we're looking at, right? Sure. What's really going on here? But what happens to curiosity in a post-truth environment? I mean, that's what we're looking at, right? Sure.

And in fairness, I mean, it's not as if I got Corden to actually answer, you know, any of my questions that he really addressed it. And whatever conclusion people came to in that moment, you know, had more to do with his attitude towards me. And I'm not a publicist and I'm not his handler, but all he had, I mean, there were so many other ways that he could have approached it, you know, still without sort of answering my question or giving me any, you know, content or fuel for the fire. Well, that's, I mean, that's what I think. When I watched the interview with Prince Andrew,

did you ever see that? Like Prince Andrew. What a segue. What a transition. Well, kind of the same thing in the sense where you go, didn't anyone say to him, you know, you might want to shut up here. You're in the wrong. You clearly did something wrong.

Shut the fuck up and make a deal if that's what's on the table. But to go on and think that you can hoodwink people, even if you could hoodwink people, it's probably best to shut up. Isn't this just something fundamental, I guess, about human nature? Because these scenarios keep repeating in some way. And we all look at them and we say, you know, if I were in that position, I bet I wouldn't dot, dot, dot. I'd be the one who finally doesn't or does.

And the fact that it never happens, you know, we can't prevent ourselves. We all get in these emotional places and we react to provocation or what we perceive as provocation. Well, what about the idea as well that no one seems to be the villain of their own story? Right. Now, the truth is, if I look back, because I got sober, I got involved with a bunch of people who made me do inventories of myself and my behavior in the times and continue to do it.

And what I noticed and what drives me crazy about these people I'm involved with, they don't even let me say their name. That's okay. Well, they do, but the tradition is that I don't. Is that my part in it is the only part that I can do in the book. Right. And do you find that, like you interact, is that my part in it is the only part that I can do in the book. Right. And do you find that, like, you interact probably less so now, I think,

with pop culture than you did maybe when you were still on The Times, right? You're probably doing it less now? Sure. I mean, I'm primarily a consumer of it. Right. Just a kind of rank-and-file audience member. I mean, I still write freelance pieces, but I don't know that I am at the sort of nose to the right at the screen kind of person. Right, but you've talked to a lot of people who are accomplished in the arts.

Absolutely. Have you ever met someone who you've thought, this is actually someone who's accountable? This is someone who's like, yeah, I totally, they totally own who they are and they're accountable. Hmm. I'd really, it'll probably occur to me the moment I step out of the studio,

I will say I take a lot of pleasure in, you know, I've had these experiences before. I mean, people who have just lived a lot of years and are truthful about, you know, a book that I wrote about the screenwriter, Paddy Chayefsky and his producing partner by the time I wrote the book was in his early 80s and beholden to no one anymore. Didn't have to worry about offending the wrong people or, you know, anybody's reputation or what. And he was very proud to have worked with Chayefsky and had produced films like Network,

which won Oscars, was a Best Picture nominee. And he was very, to my mind, candid about his relationship with Chayefsky, about Chayefsky's own volatility, notorious volatility. I mean, a guy who stormed out of meetings and threw things that people still regarded as one of our, you know, great screenwriters, but had a lot of obvious just, you know, ego and personality problems. relentless drive by the Borg for fucking respectability. Why does McDigliani have to be respectable? Why does fucking, oh, Vincent, you cut your ear off. Oh, you're so wrong.

Why the fuck should Lemmy be a good guy at your, you know, kids' soccer practice? It's not fucking necessary. Imagine if you were, though. I really thought the kids did well. I really thought the kids did well. I really thought the kids did well with the soccer. 11-0 for the youngsters.

But I think that I think that there is this weird this is what I don't understand. The idea that everybody be held up to the same moral value as a

middle of the road Sunday school teacher. I didn't come of age in that. I didn't feel like that was necessary. I mean, I don't think as a people we're ever going to sort that out. I mean, I got a guy tattooed on my arm who murdered his own girlfriend. I mean, let's not mince words. I'm not celebrating him for that fact. Look, maybe somebody will notice that one day

and say, how dare you? How can you have that? My wife's known about it since we've been together. She's never taken umbrage at it and she understands why the symbolism and the spirit of Sid Vicious means, I mean, I'll never ever live that life or come

close to it. I don't think you need to. I don't think anyone said Sid shouldn't have done it either. But these are the people that we can't help but at least find ourselves fascinated with. And they're the ones at the avant-garde, the bleeding edge. They're the ones that are pushing. Not all of them have to murder their girlfriends to do it. But we find that the people who are, you know, in some way or another advancing our culture

or making the things that are lasting or contributing to them, you know. Or being swept along by it, you know. I mean, the whole thing of, I mean, Sid is actually a pretty good example. Sid was, what, 21, 22? Yeah. You know, I mean, he's a kid. Yeah. And being swept up in this huge, look, I was in my early 40s before I became even a little bit famous.

And it's a very odd thing to have happen to you. I can't imagine how anyone survives it in their early 20s. It is insane. And certainly, you know, when you look at the numbers of those who don't and find it so damaging and overwhelming and every iteration of it.

I mean, obviously now, with all the different ways that you can be examined and being perpetually under the microscope, it seems horrifying. But people in eras when all there was was just TV and radio and a handful of newspapers. Even that was too much to bear. Is it necessary for you, if you like someone's work,

that you find their personality acceptable? It's very tricky now, right? I mean, it's one thing to look back at people even from the 70s and you can, you know, you can just, like, just about enough time has elapsed where you can say, like, okay, yeah, I recognize that they were horrible in this way or that

way, but they're, you know, years gone by, maybe they're dead, and so, like, I can just look at the artifact of what they've made. It seems impossible to do now, that now you really have to be you know you're you're being evaluated both on the quality of the thing that you do or make and in tandem with you know the personality has to be reflected in that somehow

and it has to be within you know just like just just outside the confines, but also within the confines. Yeah, I find that that might be detrimental towards art. Just in the sense that, you know, well, look, let's take a different form of art. Let's talk about a chef. You ever meet a chef who wasn't a dick? I mean, like every chef I've ever met is a fucking dick. You're going to be eating a lot of fast food on the rest of this trip, I think, Craig.

But I think it's kind of, it's what they kind of have to be. You know, there is a very high pressure situation. It's very, decisions all the time. You're the one that, you're on the line for it, nobody else. And it's like, it seems to either it produces a personality like that or it attracts a personality like that something like that but for you right is you know obviously it doesn't matter if you go to a restaurant and the food tastes good you don't really think about if the chef's a dick but then again people don't think about who makes their iPhones do they I mean

well forget it right if you really start pulling that apart, you're in trouble. Right, so it seems to me a convenient moral stance is what's really taken. It's not a real moral stance. I mean, if you really wanted to get a moral stance, you wouldn't put any gasoline in your car and you wouldn't have an iPhone.

You just wouldn't. Yeah, yeah. I think it's up to, this is the greatest cop out of all time, but it's up to the individual. And if somebody transgresses, whether it's a chef or an artist or whomever it is, to a degree that, you know, you find, you know, offensive or untenable, like, I think you have a right to. Yes, you do. You personally, you know, have a right to.

I mean, you know, if you're talking about a criminal offense, then. Commit a crime, you go to jail. Right. That's the way it is. But when you're just talking about, you know, a personality thing and an ego thing and, you know... Right. Like, you can, in your mind, cancel that person. You know, the question, like, the need to cultivate, you know, a kind of a mob or just a...

Right. You know, an outcry around an incident that you, you know, is that... That dynamic seems pretty entrenched now, too. It's also a little tired, I think. Because you get the idea of people are saying that they're annoyed. And you go, what people are saying? Like 40 people on Twitter? I don't fucking care. It's not even Twitter anymore.

What is it, Twix? It's Twix. It's just 40 people on Twix. I think that's like the best thing that, you know, of all the ways that the site

has been kind of ruined and made like unusable at least, like it doesn't have that kind of like the power to just like generate those,

that kind of like those instant mobs. it's declawed. Yeah. It's really interesting. I wonder if Musk really is a genius and he went, I'm going to declaw this motherfucker. I'm going to, it's declawed. It's really interesting. I wonder if Musk really is a genius and he went,

I'm going to declaw this motherfucker. It's going to be a kitten. It's going to be totally fucking useless. I mean, I think, yes. No, the kittens are useless. I'm sorry, cat ladies. Now you're canceled. Look, I'm sure that he went in with some kind of intent of, like, you know, making it less powerful and less responsive to, like, the group dynamics that, you know, that made it so popular.

There's no question about it. Like, whether, I don't know, whether he intended it to have the effect that it was going to have his, like these great, you know, to have all these contributors, people who you could have, you know, in other circumstances, you would have been paying large sums of money to like generate content for you every day and to just alienate them en masse. Like there's no way. You're right. He's not a genius. That was not part of the business plan. We've come full circle. He's a goddamn idiot.

So here's the thing I wanted to ask you. I bet you get asked a lot. If one of your friends says, you know, you were interviewing, I don't know, Michael Caine. And they would say, what was he like? And you have to say he was nice. Because if you know if, with Michael Caine it's easy because he is nice. Right. But you know you're going to shatter someone's dreams if you tell them that he was dreadful and he smelled like pee.

Which he doesn't. No. And he isn't. I'm sure he's fragrant as a rose. But here's what I think you've done that's very, very clever. We've talked for this entire podcast about other people because I think that's what you do. I think you deflect as much as possible away

from yourself. From myself? Yeah, why do you think you do that? I don't know. You know, it's interesting because I don't imagine that I'm actively doing it. No, I don't think you're being obtuse. I just think that... And I even thought that, I'm not accusing you or criticizing or anything, I thought we kind of did talk about some personal things, but yeah, I mean, you sat and looked at me

and listened to me for the last 45 minutes. So I got to give you some credence here. No, I think what it is, is that you, I don't think you're guarded. I really don't. I don't get from you that you're trying to hide. Thanks. But I do get that you have a genuine curiosity,

which I think is fascinating, given the fact that you've been doing it for, you haven't been doing it for 50 years, but you've been doing it for a while. Yeah, and it didn't start, you know, yesterday, is sad to say. But yeah, I don't think, I'm not like, other than a couple of things, I'm not like guarded about myself and I'm not really protecting anything. Except you won't tell me who you're working on a book with. That's right. That's okay. That's a professional

decision. Yes, thank you. That's alright. It's not like, you know, how do you like your, you know, sex or anything? How do you like your sex? My what? Your sex. How do you like your sex? I've never heard this word. Wait. I gotta

look this up. How do you like your sex? Do you like the lady sex or do you like the other one? If I go online and type in the word sex, will I find information on this topic? Yeah, you'll get a lot. I'll tell you what not to do. Don't do this. When we were in Los Angeles, my wife, she felt her skin was getting very dry. She said,

I think I really need to get some treatment for this. Go to a spa, get some, my skin's very dry. I went, okay. So she Googled LA's best facial, which is a very,

it's a very, very bad idea. Oh my God. So never, never do that. Although apparently it's good for your skin. So, Dave, it's been lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much for inviting me to come by and do this and to get to catch up with you like this.

I'm so thrilled. I'm so flattered. You are a man who understands a loose format, and I like that. And I do get that you. You are a man who understands a loose format. And I like that. And I do get that you get a sense of joy at what you do. I really do. Thank you so, so much. I do.

And, you know, there's nobody who I'd rather share a loose format with than you, Craig. Thank you, my friend. Thank you. Good luck. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad, and I had the best memories and the greatest experience, and that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I am Lacey Lamar. And I'm also Lacey Lamar. Just kidding. I'm Amber Revin. Okay, everybody, we have exciting news to share. We're back with season two of the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. This season, we make new friends, deep dive into my steamy DMs, answer your listener questions, and more.

The more is punch each other. Listen to the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just listen, okay? Or Lacey gets it. Do it.