Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Eric Mourlot

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

Meet Eric Mourlot. For onwards of 152 years, Fernand Mourlot (Eric’s grandfather) has been synonymous with the resurgence of lithography – a process which under his influence, attracted the greatest artistic masters of our time. The medium provided a new avenue of expression, a new realm of possibilities for the likes of Picasso, Matisse, Chagall, Miró, Braque, Dubuffet, Léger, and Giacometti to enrich their own work as well as fine art in general. As a child, Eric Mourlot participated in the printing process, soon becoming enthralled with his surroundings in the printshop. It became a source of inspiration for him, quickly igniting a passion for the relationships and collaborations that took place between artists, printers, gallerists, and publishers. Today, 164 years later, Mourlot continues to promote the art of publishing and printing that his family pioneered. Stay up to date on everything Eric has going on at https://www.mourloteditions.com/, Today, Eric is talking art everything with Craig, enJOY!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said, like, in my head for, like, 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez.

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on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business.

Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When I do live gigs around the country, I'll be honest with you, I sell T-shirts and swag to the folks who are there, and then people always say, can we get the swag without sitting through a whole evening of you?

Well, it's happened. It's finally here. You can buy Craig Ferguson merch on the Craig Ferguson merch website, and you can buy it for yourself or someone you hate or someone you love. For more information and link to the web store, please go to thecraigfergusonshow.com. That's all lowercase, thecraigfergusonshow.com. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. This episode is a conversation with Eric Merlot, which if you are any way attached to the art world, you will know exactly who he is. And if you're not, then you're about to find out. Eric Merlot. Full disclosure, Eric, you're French. So that's not going to be an issue,

but it's very much part of our story today. That's right. Well, with the old alliance, though, you're Scottish. Scottish and French, that's true. You know why, though? It's because they were Catholics. That's right. At least I think they were Catholic.

Well, originally until they killed your queen. No, who killed the queen? There was Mary, Queen of Scots. She was French, though, wasn't she? That's right. Yeah. She was Catholic, and so Elizabeth made sure that... That French, though, wasn't she? That's right. Yeah. She was Catholic. And so Elizabeth made sure that. That's right.

But Elizabeth was English. That's right. Right. Okay. But we're not talking about this. We're talking about your, the story of the Merlot family from wallpaper makers in the 19th century to being a dynamic force, a dynamic force, Eric, in the 20th century to being a dynamic force, a dynamic force, Eric, in the 20th century masters.

Before as well? Let's start. Okay, so who started making the, your family began making wallpaper in Paris in the... 1852. 1850. So it was just, it wasn't like, it wasn't an artistic endeavor. Well, it was artistic in the sense of wallpapers, right?

Yeah, but it was commercial. You're right. I mean, we were doing also wine labels, chocolate labels, ledgers. Eventually,

my great-grandfather, who was the son of the previous owner, Right. he started, he bought, I should say, a print shop that was printing um those uh geographical maps that you had at school that you would pull down maps of the world right okay and

during colonial times so everything said either france britain or exactly this is french and this is british so what happened then who made the change into the birth of the lithographic movement? Is that a movement? Well, it's a medium, right? It was started in Germany by Senefelder in the mid-18th century. So just about a century before. It was the easiest way to print color. Right, so talk me through.

Imagine I don't know what a lithograph is. Right. I'm not saying I don't, but imagine I don't. Imagine you're talking to someone who doesn't know what a lithograph is or what it would be or how it came about. What is a lithograph? It's actually a really funny story. So this gentleman, Senefelder, was trying to find a way to reproduce his plays

in a cheaper manner because before then, you would have to go to a printer that would do topography. Right. Like Gutenberg. Right. And he was trying to find a way to publish his works. And I think his wife was serving him some kind of soup, some fatty soup outside on his limestone table. Right.

And suddenly he discovered that after he had washed the table, the soup had been spilled and he washed the table. He started putting the paper in. He had his ink. He spilled some of his ink. And the ink actually stayed in the areas that had been previously absorbed, had absorbed the grease from the soup. Oh, so this was born of a drunk playwright

spilling his soup and then going, all right, I'd better get out of it, and wine, and well, okay, good. He made his fortune, actually, from lithography, not from his writing. Well, what is it then that's happening? So it's really based on the repulsion of water and grease. So the grease basically that is absorbed by the lithographing by the limestone.

Right. Later on, we'll be able to retain the printing ink. All right. So once you have the ink on the stone that's being retained in the areas that have been drawn by the artist, then you apply the paper and you apply pressure and the ink is transferred from the stone onto the paper. So it's kind of like a printing block, right? Yeah.

Right. But it's a stone printing block. Exactly. Right. And so how does your family get involved in the, cause this starts, he invent this German bloke invents a new form of printing. Right, and it's got its heyday really in the late... Well, when we were basically doing it commercially at that point, you have a lot of artists like Chéret and Toulouse-Lautrec.

Right. And all these moukas that are artists that are doing these big, big posters. Theater posters, right. Like the Moulin Rouge posters that Lautrec was doing. And that was lithographs then? Yeah, absolutely. It was lithographs. And as a matter of fact,

when John Ford does his movie Moulin Rouge, the studio where Toulouse-Lautrec had worked does not exist anymore. So he came to do it at our studio and he took over the studio, and there are several scenes where Jose Ferrer is in there and pretends to be working in our studio, printing his lithographs.

Oh, right. So what happens is, is it your grandfather or your great-grandfather? My grandfather. Right, so your grandfather decides, I'm going to get in touch, I'm going to use this lithograph stuff that we've used for wallpaper? So his grandfather

and his father, by then we have about four print shops. There are two in Paris and two in the suburbs. We ended up losing the two in the suburbs because the railroad took it by eminent domain. They needed the land. Land grab, right. Exactly.

And then basically World War I takes place and my grandmother passes away. My grandfather dies in, my great-grandfather, sorry, dies in 1921. Right. So, my grandfather and his brothers and sisters take over the studios. And my grandfather had gone to the decorative art school in Paris. Right. It's called the Zard Decoratif.

And he's the one that basically started bringing all the artists over. Now, does he know Picasso and those guys from that time? So he knows some of the artists, like Matisse had taught at the school that he went to. Right. He knows Braque. He knows some of the people, like Matisse had taught at the school that he went to. He knows Braque. He knows some of the people, but he doesn't, he knows some of them from his regiment in World War I.

Really? Because he did four years. Okay. So did his brother, actually. Right. And we lost one of the brothers did die during the war. During the war. So he comes back from the war, and he had known,

he had met Léger, actually, in the war, Fernand Léger. But mostly, he ended up knowing some of the people that worked for the national museums. And they put him in touch with the artists?

So he had an idea. They were at lunch, and they were complaining that they were not getting enough traffic in the museums. They said, well, you know, we're putting bylines in the paper and people are not coming. He said, well, but that's because it's not visual enough.

You should do what theaters used to do. Make prints of the art that's on display. Put them all over the streets of Paris and just advertise your exhibitions. of Paris and just advertise your exhibitions. So where was the idea born that an artist would create lithographs as just a piece of art? I mean, the idea is that an artist like Picasso, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that I need to say Picasso creates an image that is going to be printed on limestone, right?

And then you print out a bunch of lithographs, then you destroy the original piece on limestone, right? And then you print out a bunch of lithographs, then you destroy the original piece of limestone, and then these pieces are numbered and they're like original pieces, is that right? So it really started with etchings, if you're talking about Durer and Rembrandt, so we're talking back in the 16th century. They were interested in etchings and doing these works. So prints. So they would go to the printer and they would say, listen, you give me a copper plate, you pay for the paper, you pay for the ink,

I'll do the work, and then we split it. We have artist proofs and we have printer proofs. It would sort of be 50-50. Because Rembrandt did a ton of those, right? Yes. I mean, like back in the day. And these were done in copper plate? Exactly.

Okay. And Rembrandt probably did his. Durer, I think, used more craftsmen to help him do his. Right. But they're all, you know, they're all... So if you have a Rembrandt etching, I mean, that's not going to cost you a ton of money for a Rembrandt etching, is it?

Depends which one. Right. But say you have a... What's the self-portrait, the famous self-portrait of... Of Rembrandt. Rembrandt. If you had an etching of that, what would that be? It depends.

It depends on if you have the one that was printed in... If it was printed in the 1500s... What if you got one in the 1600s? If it was printed in the 1700s, or if it was printed in the 1800s? All right, I'm asking for a friend. What if you got one in Target? If it was printed in the 1600s, if it was printed in the 1700s, or if it was printed in the 1800s. All right, I'm asking for a friend. What if you got one in Target? If you got one in Target and it went on, that looks nice. Or on Rodeo Drive.

Or on Rodeo Drive, yeah. Whatever, it would be fine. So who started the idea? Because there was a thing, like Picasso was doing this, that he was making lithographs and then adding to them once they were done, right? So he hadn't had such great luck. He had tried it in the 20s before even my grandpa got to know him. We knew him through printing posters for the museums. And so he hadn't really, he might have come to the studio.

We're not really sure at that point. But he was working with other printers. And he didn't like it. So he dropped it. And it's not until probably, well, it's after the war. It's like 1945. We had worked already for Matisse and brock and and other artists and before the war and then the war of course was quite complicated yeah no kidding yeah uh and

then uh it's not until 1945 where basically he is interested in doing it again and it's because picasso because brock and matisse tell him listen you should really try to go see more low he's different than the other ones he lets you he'll give you more leeway. And I think that's the thing with my grandfather. He was able to let the artists do what they wanted in the studio. He gave them more freedom that a lot of the other printers, you know, when it was four o'clock, everything had to be locked up. You left everything there, and then after that, you go home, but the employees go home and everything. So my

grandpa was basically willing to say, I'll send a couple guys to bring you whatever you need in your home. Because, you know, Picasso came the first time he came the first day he started working at like noon and he didn't stop until 8 p.m. Right. And all the employees were like, uh, yeah, it's a break time.

Mr. Picasso. Come on then, sir. Let's get out of there. No more square faces. Out you come. I'm Angie Martinez.

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Whether you're just getting started or an established business owner, Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. This is Butternomics. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you were a child growing up there, you ran into all of these people. Is that true? Well, I mean, in the 50s, I wasn't much of a child. You weren't born in the 50s. So yeah, Matisse dies in 54, so I can't really say.

And then I, you know, I was... Did you ever see his ghost? Oh, no, because he died in his home. But when I was giving a lecture at this museum, which is in your neck of the wood, at the National Gallery in Edinburgh. Oh, yeah, that's famous. Yes, it's quite a beautiful building.

Yeah, it is, yeah. And it was a show of Picasso's works on paper. And you were giving the lecture? I was giving the lecture. That's very swanky, Eric. That's like you're a proper art guy. I mean, you're really arty. I don't know.

You want to ask the little old lady in the first row that probably had just finished a couple of pints and she was falling asleep. Well, that happens to everybody. So that happens at my shows, Eric. But it was really interesting. And so I was telling them, you know, a lot of these stories about how, you know, Picasso. And actually, Picasso was a lot of fun to work with. But he was basically taking all these things back home and working on them. And then in the morning, my grandpa would send someone to go pick it up.

So he'd nip around in Picasso's house and get that stuff and bring it around and we'll print it. Yeah. Well, Picasso would show up probably around, you know, one o'clock or... You see, that's where I think Picasso was going wrong. He was, you know, sleeping in every day. He would get much more done. But he was working until three, four in the morning. Okay.

I wonder why that is. A strange man, by all accounts, they say. Oh, yeah. So, my joke when I was at the... Oh, you had a joke. Okay. I wonder why that is. A strange man, by all accounts, they say. Oh, yeah. So my joke when I was at the Oh, you had a joke. Sorry. Well, it's not really a joke.

Oh, I'll let you do the funny. No, come on. So I usually basically put a picture up at the beginning of the lecture of Picasso and my grandfather

on the beach holding me as a baby. Right. And I'll start by saying, you know, as you can see, Picasso and I had many very intellectual conversations about art. And eventually, once I take that out, we can discuss basically,

they understand that I'm just repeating the stories that my grandfather and my father told me, because really, I was three years old when he passed away. Really? When Picasso passed away? Yeah, but I mean, I'm good friends with Paloma. I was friends with François Gillot, Paloma's mother, his ex-partner. Yeah.

Were they ever married? No, never married. They had two kids, Claude, who also unfortunately passed away also last summer. Oh, dear. And they were together for about 10 years.

And she also worked with us. She was one of the few. I think she was probably the first woman that came to work at the studio. She's a pretty impressive customer, wasn't she? She was. She kind of. Look, maybe I'm talking out of turn here. But she wasn't particularly enamored with her time with Picasso, was she?

She felt like it was a very kind of restrictive relationship for her. Is that right? Yeah, I mean, she was an incredibly sweet woman. I owe her a lot. When I got a second divorce and I was really bummed, she called me up. She said, Eric, you don't even know what a sociopath is. I was with one for 10 years let me

tell you but um but on the other hand she said picasso was a sociopath you think well again you know i was three years well yeah i'm not i'm not talking about personal experience but right but but the but the idea that you know i i don't i don't mean you you you know the people involved you know the circles i do i do i um it's hard also what is a sociopath i don't, I don't. I mean, you know the people involved, you know the circles involved. I do, I do. It's hard also, what is a sociopath? I don't even know what that is. You know, I was sort of thinking about that. There's a lot of different kinds of them.

As a matter of fact, artists, a lot of artists are at least narcissistic. Well, I think that's. But some are more narcissistic than others. Right. Some go into sociopathy. But is it, by the way, sociopathy? Sociopathy or sociopathy? I don't know. And the thing is, I can only talk about it so long before I start thinking about myself. But I think that it's a buzzword right now as well. It covers a broad spectrum of different things. So he's a very complicated man.

But Francois Gillot is a very gifted artist herself. I've seen some of her work. It's amazing. She's incredibly talented. She was incredibly, she was a great lithographer also. She really did a lot with us. And my grandfather was the only man

or the only business person that was allowed to still work with her. Because, you know, once she left Picasso, and she's the only woman who ever left Picasso. Right. Once she left Picasso, that was it. He sued her for her book. He tried to Harvey Weinstein her.

Oh, my God. It was like, yeah, he was trying to cancel her. Oh, my God. So even his dealer, Kahnweiler, was not allowed to. He called Francoise and said, I'm very sorry, Francoise, but you know, obviously I cannot work with you anymore. And she couldn't have really dealers working with her. But my grandfather, for some reason, and that's why I think Francoise always said, your grandfather with his, you know, he had a profile of a Roman senator.

He was able to sort of finesse it, and Picasso was totally fine with him continuing to work with her. I have a theory about this as well, that I think because your grandfather is an alpha personality himself, as Picasso is, right? And your grandfather also has the, he's got a lucrative wallpaper, but he doesn't need Picasso in the same way that other people need Picasso. He's not living off him.

It's like if Picasso walks, it doesn't matter. He's still got his business. He's still independently, you know, wealthy. He can do his thing. Am I right? Yeah, the only thing is, the funny bit about that is we always say in the family, you know, when we say, why did this person come? Why did this person? The only thing is, the funny bit about that is we always say in the family,

when we say, why did this person come? Why did this person come? Oh, well, because we were the best printers in the world. And I think we're more realistic than that, because I think my grandpa once said, the thing is, we printed Picasso, so everybody wanted to print where Picasso went. So that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, they did like Moreau. They did like Matisse. They did like all these other famous, you know. So that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they did like Moreau. They did like Moreau. They did like Matisse. They did like all these other famous, Henry Moore. We even, it wasn't just Kerwin in England. We actually printed also Henry Moore in Graham Sutherland and a lot of, you know, Marino Marini. So artists from everywhere, Chagall especially, because what we did in World War II, Chagall when he came back from New York, only printed with us.

What did you do in World War II? So my grandpa helped a lot of our colleagues that were Jewish and that had print shops. And we also printed a lot of fake papers. Oh, really? So you printed fake IDs for the resistance and stuff? And for people to get out. Right. Because the Nazis were...

They had very funny ideas about art, didn't they, the Nazis? Yeah. They, I mean, obviously, you know, there's the anti-Semitism, but the idea that they would, they talked about modern art as being degenerate, right? They were collecting it, too. Yeah, of course, because they were pragmatic as well as evil. But they had this, what was that exhibition they had in Berlin?

I think it was before the war. It was the Degenerate Art Exhibition or something. Yeah, they did, yeah. And they showed all, they were showing Picassos and modern art in a gallery next to, you know, proper, as they said, Teutonic art, which was like, you know,

stags and meadows and stuff. And everybody went to see the degenerate art. They're like, oh, boobies. Where do you come down on your personal taste? Do you find yourself drawn more to modern, contemporary pop art, or are you a traditionalist? Because you're an art dealer, right? Right, yeah.

So, yeah, for me, listen i i'm not one to tell people what is art where they should like you know art is basically an expression of someone you know someone's thoughts and feelings usually through uh creative mediums so it could be music it could be words it could be you know visual anything be words, it could be visual, anything. Right. So who am I to tell people what is good and what is not? I know what I like. Well, that's more what I mean.

What are you drawn to? Yeah, so I'm drawn to, I'm very Catholic in my taste, and I don't mean that in a religious way. I mean, I'm really open to a lot of things, and I like certain classical. Aboriginal art, for for example is really interesting to me and it was interesting to matisse and picasso right and what i like is that these people kept on renewing themselves i'm not crazy about see i i think there was some interesting

pop art in the 60s i think that now some of it got a little ridiculous though and i think unfortunately it was supposed to be kind of like a small closet and people made it kind of a big pathway and now that closet is getting really packed with people that don't know

what they're doing. Well, I think, you know, Andy bears a certain amount of responsibility for that, for saying stuff like, you know, art is what you can

get away with. And like, no, no Andy Warhol. Although, I have to say, have you been in the Andy Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh? No, no, no Andy Warhol. It's not. Although, I have to say, have you been to the Andy Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh? No, I haven't been. Oh, it's sensational.

Oh, yeah. You know, the thing is about it as well, it has all these Andy Warhol pieces in it, but the most Andy Warhol, the most Warholian part of the whole place is the gift shop. This is exactly where the epicenter of Warholism. He was in advertising.

Yeah, he was a graphic designer, right? Yeah. And so, by the way, the thing that's interesting to me is, you know, a little bit, and it kind of relates, my taste relates a little bit to what you do in the sense that if I have to see one more political piece of artwork, or if I have to see one more sort of commentary on social whatever. Right. Frankly, right now I'm a little tired of it. That's interesting. So art that is being made and sold right now in New York City, there are, see I'm not really aware of current working artists. All the artists I know are dead, and have been dead for some of them. The ones I like have been dead for quite a long time.

But are artists working now with kind of like, oh, look out for Trump, or Joe Biden's horrible, that kind of stuff, that people are doing that? Yeah, I mean, probably more the first one. Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. But yeah, no, you see a lot of that. And I'm not only just talking about that. I'm talking about these pseudo-social commentaries

on today's society and consumption or whatever. And I'm looking at it, I'm going, that's exactly what you are. Yeah. You're not really making a non-moral judgment about it. You're, you know, at least make a moral judgment about it. It's funny because sometimes the aesthetic attraction of art can supersede the political.

I mean, if you look at some of those old Soviet posters, they're like, they're amazing. There's a statue in Moscow, the heroes of space, the Soviet heroes of space. It's one of the most amazing statues I've ever seen. But that is propaganda. Well, yeah. I mean, the Nazis certainly understood that.

Yeah, they did. That's true. But for example, I like when Fernand Léger walks into the Matisse Chapel in Vence in the south of France. He goes inside the chapel and he looks and he says, Matisse has invented the religion of beauty. Oh, okay. And so this is interesting because it's the end of Matisse's life and suddenly he's become closer to his religion. His, you know, he becomes, he believes. Well, that's inevitable.

I think if you live long enough, you start kind of going, I'd like to get in. Well, it's not even so much that it's the more of the kind of, you know, I was talking to someone else about this today, actually, that CS Lewis said the thing about death is a horseman who's easy to ignore when he's you know two valleys away and just a figure on the horizon but when he's close enough for you to hear the hoof prints you you may change your opinion and and and i think that that that happens to to people as they get older as it happened to you as you got older you started to be a bit more do you mean am, am I hearing the hooves?

Have you heard the hooves? Do you hear the hooves? I'm not much younger than you. Be careful. Do you find that? Yeah. Does your taste in art change? Does it become...

Yeah, I think it does, right? It does, absolutely. I think that there are certain things... I mean, I will always love Fernand Léger because I'm very optimistic and I find it very joyful. Fernand Léger's work is to me happiness because it glorifies the working man. It glorifies industry.

the world that we live in as optimistic. People got, you know, they now in France, they were able to have paid vacation, paid holidays. So you would see these workers with their bicycles. Raffaele did those as well, didn't he? There was Raffaele who was, he was in the first French Impressionist exhibition and then he was kicked out because he would draw like a lovely scene.

But he was the guy that did the absinthe drinkers. Exactly. Right. But he would do like a lovely scene, but also maybe a factory on the edge of it, stuff like that. They were like, no, you can't have factories in French Impressionism. I liked him too. Yeah. But those things, when you get movements like that, like impressionism, for example,

who was, there was, it wasn't the guy with the garden, what's his name? Monet. Monet. He was the kind of boss, wasn't he? Yeah, I mean, you... Because he had an argument with Raffaele and kicked him out. He was like, get out. Get out.

Yeah, no, it was kind of like, yeah, his thing. But there was, you know, and there was some interesting relationships. I say there were older artists and then younger artists, and then some of these artists ended up going into Fauvism or something different after that. What's that, Fauvism? So Fauvism is kind of Vlaminck and Matisse at the beginning. There was a great show at the Met that just,

I think it just ended, and it was Matisse and Doran in Coulieux, which is a little town in the Mediterranean. Right. And they basically paint with these very wild colors. It's a little bit like Syrah in the sense that you have, it's not dots, but it's these patches of color. So it comes from the Impressionism,

but then you have these really bright colors. So when they do each other's portraits, they might be green and red. And so everything is kind of connected, interconnected, actually. That sounds a little Van Gogh-ish as well. There is a little bit of everything. You know, listen, they all look at each other.

Yeah. I mean, the father of... The artist that Picasso looks up to probably the most, and he looks at everyone, of course. Right. But I think the one that he really loves the most is Cezanne. And Cezanne, to me, is very much like Bach is to music. There's no jazz without Bach.

Right. There's no modern art without Cezanne. Cezanne because of the way that he applied the paint to the canvas. Yes, it's really the beginning he just really takes everything upside down and just really reinvents everything so that he opens he's one of those watershed moments so he allows Picasso to start doing cubism for example. What situation or what is it like in the art world now because of a lot of the personal lives of the artists who are still selling for vast sums of money, Picasso being one of them, have come under scrutiny of the lens of modern sensibilities and people get upset about, I mean, Picasso's treatment of women is not, you know, it's not a stellar story. It's not great, you know, and the other artists' behavior.

Does that affect a piece's value in modern? No, I think for a couple of reasons. Unfortunately, I think that there isn't one art market and there isn't one pillar of the art market. Right. What I do, I find is getting smaller and smaller, which is to deal with actual collectors or museum collections.

But even then, it's very difficult to get material nowadays. What happens is there's a lot of tax evasion. There's a lot of money laundering. There's a lot of these things going on. Well, buying art is a way to hide money? Yeah, absolutely. And speculation also. Well, yeah, but I mean, I think a lot of people think like that.

Like, oh, I wonder if my grandpa's portrait I found in the attic is worth a million. Yeah, but I think, again, and that's why probably I'm still happy. By the way, I mean, most art dealers are famous for, successful art dealers are famous for having no sense of humor because they're mostly the ultimate con artists. Really?

You're not a con artist. No, you're one of the nicest people I've met in New York, which is a low bar, I admit, but there's still... No, but I think... This is not... I think that the business

has changed tremendously and we're no longer talking about just building collections for people that are really, truly, madly in love with art. We're also

manipulating money. And so the problem is I made a conscious decision that I cannot deal with these people. So is there a... Because I feel that sometimes when I look at... I hate to single out

because an artist is an artist. But when I look at the work of Jeff Koons and I think, what the fuck is that? You know, I mean, it's like a balloon animal. It doesn't make any fucking sense to me Jeff Koons is a

very nice person see I'm sure he is I don't know Jeff Koons but I do oh do you well I'm terribly sorry but

I don't own any but right wisely well no the thing is they're worth tons of money

look a lot of people disagree with me people love that stuff they're amazing contemporary artists even if they are you know for example I'm not I'm not down on contemporary worth tons of money. Look, a lot of people disagree with me. People love that stuff. They're amazing contemporary artists, even if they are, you know, for example...

I'm not down on contemporary art. I'm just like... But I don't... No, I get it. And you have, for example, amazing artists and sometimes like

Cecily Brown, I think, is an amazing artist. Okay, I'm not familiar with Cecily Brown. English artist. But, you know, she was at Gagosian. Of course, she started

selling for huge amounts of money. That doesn't take away from the quality of her work. But, you know, she was at Gagosian. Of course, she started selling for huge amounts of money. That doesn't take away from the quality of her work. But to go back to what you were saying about how do we judge Picasso? Well, you know what? How do we judge history? I mean, that's something that just keeps on happening. And now we're going to go back and we're going to look at history. No, there's no issue, for example, with Harvey Weinstein, because that happened yesterday. You're right. So we know that guy was a monster.

He's a monster. Now, I don't know of any situation really where Picasso raped anyone. No. But he was certainly, you know, Francois said he was certainly psychologically abusive. I wonder. It's an interesting thing because, you know, Francois said he was certainly psychologically abusive. I wonder. It's an interesting thing because, of course, if you're talking about the manipulation of art and the manipulation of history, you know, Orwell's famous, he who controls the past controls the present, right? So if you can write a new story about an old story, you can manipulate it into the present. So for example,

if you want to devalue or revalue a piece of art, maybe you can tell a new story about the artist. I sometimes think about, you know, if you take the most expensive art in the world, it's probably Van Gogh, right? You know, Starry Night or something like that. Like a ridiculous amount of money, more money than anybody has. Now, if you say Van Gogh probably, probably was mentally ill in a way that nowadays we would treat chemically.

We would say, look, you know, you take this Zakarpazin and you'll feel a lot better and he probably would feel a lot better and his art would have changed and maybe as you look at starry night no i'm just i'm fucking around here right but maybe as you look at starry night you're enjoying the mental illness of a man who's in anguish so therefore you're a monster and you shouldn't enjoy that art. And we should rethink how we look at it. Now, I'm not saying we should do that, but I'm just fucking around with the idea of it.

No, absolutely. And for example, Edgar Allan Poe was drinking absinthe, but the thing is, he also had alcohol allergy. So it could have just one glass of wine and then you know you see what he was writing about all these murders right or or the painter hieronymus bosch yes who was the garden of earthly delights where the uh like horror and this is the 13th century things like you know monsters and you know guys with faces and their bodies and all crazy stuff he He apparently, I don't know if this is true, what I'd heard about it was that he used to like to paint for long periods of time, and he would take this rye bread and go to a shed at the end of his garden.

But the rye bread he was eating at the time, after a couple of days, it forms a little mold on it, which is hallucinogenic. And so, first off, he's painting, oh, I'll paint a meadow, and here know here's God obviously because it's the Middle Ages early Middle Ages want to paint God and then after a time is like oh I'm edgy Martinez check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes musicians actors in the world.

We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just this relaxation, this not feeling stressed, this not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you.

So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to you're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Guess what, Mango? What's that, Will? So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius. I know. That's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House. Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there. Why don't we just tell people about our show instead?

Yeah, that's a better idea. So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most important questions. Things like, when did America start dialing 911? Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto? Also, what happened to Esperanto? Plus, we cover questions like how Chinese is your Chinese food? How do dollar stores stay in business? And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese? There absolutely is. And we are risking our lives by talking about it. But if you love mind-blowing facts, incredible history, and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune in to Part-Time Genius. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, everyone. I am Lacey Lamar. And I'm Amber Ruffin, a better Lacey Lamar. Boo. Okay, everybody, we have exciting news to share. We're back with season two of the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. You thought you had fun last season? Well, you were right. And you should tune in today for new fun segments like Sister Court and listening to Lacey's steamy DMs. We've got new and exciting guests like Michael Beach. That's my husband. Daphne Spring, Daniel Thrasher, Peppermint, Morgan J. and more. You got to watch us. No,

you mean you have to listen to us. I mean, you can still watch us, but you got to listen. Like if you're watching us, you have to tell us like if you're out the window, you have to say, hey, I'm watching you outside of the window. Just, you know what? Listen to the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you never think about painting yourself? I did. I tried. You know, Picasso, sorry, not Picasso, Moreau, bought me a box of paint when I was six years old.

Nice. And that weekend, I went back to our country house with my grandma and my grandpa and my uncles and aunts, and I took my little box, and I disappeared while everybody was meeting. And I started a mural in the kitchen. They did not amuse anyone. That's six-year-old stuff, the mural in the kitchen.

That did not amuse anyone. Both my kids have done that. And that box disappeared, but my grandma was not into that at all. And I realized that I absolutely had no talent. Oh, come on. At six years old, how can you make that decision? I don't know.

I got yelled at enough. Yeah, all right. But it's funny that, though, if you think of a family which is so... I mean, your godfather is Alexander Calder, for God's sake. Yeah. I mean, that's... Do you remember him? You know, so I was a little bit older than with Picasso,

but I was still sort of, you know, before I was 10 years old. So I have great pictures. Yeah. I have a few pieces that he signed to me. One of them is actually at Café Boulud, the new restaurant. Oh, yeah, we went to the other night. Well, we went to the other one. Oh, right, Café Balloon.

And so, Danielle asked me to loan him a few pieces, so I put some legers, some calder. A lot of them are assigned to me or to my grandfather. Oh, that's kind of cool. So, I do have some of these things, but I do remember

him being, you know, this mountain, this sort of Irish mountain, with big, bushy eyebrows. But he was really sweet and really nice and he loved kids. And, you know, he did all these amazing circus. There's a great movie that was at the Whitney, and I think it was another museum around here, where he did this entire circus with a little wire and everything goes into each other. I saw it at the Whitney.

Yeah, it was printed these little bits of paper. Fantastic. Yeah, everything was just sort of like this giant. He just made this gigantic little circus with all this and really an amazing artist. It's interesting to me the world of the artistic world, particularly in New York. I did not grow up in it,

but I will happily walk through it unaffected by it because for me, it feels to me, unaffected is the wrong word, not intimidated by it. Right. Because it seems to me a little bit like the world of fashion or indeed show business, which is, it's only dangerous if you take it seriously.

But if you don't take it seriously, it's quite interesting and fun. Right, so... But there's a lot of money involved in all of these things. Well, but I think that's not what makes it important. Okay. I feel definitely older than fashion. I mean, art starts way...

It's a very attractive turtleneck, your way of thinking. Well, thank you. No, you're talking about art is older than fashion. I don't know if art is older than fashion. I don't know if I agree with that. So, you know, you have the guys in the caves start painting. Right. What are they wearing, though?

What are they wearing? I don't know. That's what I'm asking. Was it McQueen? Yeah, I don't know. But anyway, so art, by the way, some fashion is art. I will not deny that. Totally, yeah. I was saying McQueen, for example. But anyway, so art, by the way, some fashion is art. I will not deny that.

Totally, yeah. I was saying McQueen, for example. Right. Again, I don't think that McQueen is someone who did it for the money. Same with Vivienne Westwood. She created a movement. I mean, punk rock is Vivienne Westwood's creation. The idea that it's something to do with music came later. With Malcolm and Vivienne Westwood, for sure.

But mostly Vivienne Westwood. I prefer Malcolm's music. Yeah, well, yeah. She wasn't, you know, she had a different sound. But yeah, no, but you see, that to me, and all the punk movement, that makes sense. And I think that's what we're missing nowadays is we have a lot of famous artists

that are in in these stables of big galleries but they hardly really see each other the print shop was amazing in that way is that you could have in the studio right in paris and in the 50s you could have matisse picasso brock miro co, any of these writers, actors would come and visit them. Jean Array, you know, Arletti, all these different people would come. And, you know, Gary Cooper went to visit Picasso in the South of France. There was, people were meeting each other. Yeah, Gore Vidal used to have that thing, that salon environment in his house in Italy as well, that people would go there. And I wonder if the idea behind it now is digital, that people do it digitally.

But I suspect not. I think it's very difficult because it's very tactile. You're there and you really see. And the beauty of the print shop is it was a neutral ground. It wasn't somebody's studio. So they would go and visit each other. Like sometimes, you know, Picasso would go visit Matisse. Sometimes, you know, they would go to each other's homes.

But this was great because they could go work, and they had little different booths like this. So just a little bit larger than this. We had about six or seven of them on the third floor. The printing presses, the large printing presses were on the ground floor. There were some offices on a mezzanine. And then they had those booths,

and they all had the trial-proof presses that were on the same floor. So they could go try different colors, rework on the stone, erase, add, do all that stuff. Then they could go at lunchtime across the street different colors, rework on the stone, erase, add, do all that stuff. Then they could go at lunchtime across the street to the little, it was a little, uh, Italian, we say, gang, get little Italian restaurant that was not much to write home at the beginning. Right.

But because quickly everyone saw that all these famous artists, so they all started going by, By the time we closed the studio there and moved it somewhere else, the guy owned the entire block. It was called Le Chateaubriand, and it was like two stars. And it couldn't have happened to nicer people.

It was Jean Forneau, a really nice gentleman. And he had quite a nice collection. But I think that, oh, I'm going to be dead with all these guys going, I'll paint you draw you this

for lunch. No they never did that. Oh come on. No no really they really didn't. They and actually Brock always said

for example he said no I'd rather spend 20,000 francs in flowers but I live off of the artwork. Right. So if they gave you something it's

because they really liked you. So it was a personal thing then if you go somewhere. That's nice. I think the give you something, it's because they really like to. So it was a personal thing then. It was a personal thing. That's nice. I think the idea, going back to what we were talking about,

about these artists all being in a neutral environment, it also creates a place where speculation is possible in conversation. And I don't think that that's possible digitally. Because if you write something down, there's still this idea that you, well, you must believe that. Because if you write something down, there's still this idea that you, well, you must believe that. Whereas if you say,

hey, maybe, and then you say something, like I don't necessarily agree with this, but you speculate, you think out loud. You can't think out loud. Thinking out loud is not allowed. It's kind of a,

is there a political correctness in the art world now that artists must be wary of? Must they protect their public personas? Is there a kind of branding you've got to be careful about? I think so. And I think there's fake outrage and I think there's all sorts of, you know, I think that everything is very much calculated. And I think that when they try to be wild and they try to be the ones

that are not politically correct, they're extra politically correct. So guys, I'm trying to think of... I thought Banksy to me is totally politically correct. I guess it is, isn't it? It seems to have a polemic about it. And I kind of... Yeah, it does.

It's interesting as well, the Banksy thing, because it's like the acceptable face of it. It has a... Which was, when it started, it was absolutely real. Yeah. You actually couldn't go and buy the cans of spray. When you were living in the East Village, there were places in the East Village.

I lived in the East Village also, not at the same time. Right, but close to it. But, you know, cops would actually come and stalk the people just to make sure that they would arrest people. Yeah, for tagging? Sure. Yeah, yeah, you can't be doing that. I remember the East Village in the 80s was a very different place than it is now.

Yeah. Seventh and C, please. Oh, my God. It was a wild time. different place than that isn't it yeah uh it was seventh and c please oh my god it was uh it was a wild time i think i mean my memory is lazy but i think i think it was a little wild it's funny i was in a restaurant the other night and the manager i came over and she gave us a free dessert i was like oh that's great why she said i remember you being the doorman uh save the robots the club in the village. I was like, you really remember that?

I love Save the Robots. Oh, my God. It was crazy, that club. You never kicked me out of there. I wasn't the doorman. I was there at the door kind of going, I'm part of this. But any acts of violence word, I was not qualified for any of that. But like Vin Diesel, he was a doorman.

He was like, oh, hey, get out of here. I wasn't ever that. He's a big guy. He's a big guy and he works out and stuff and, you know, takes care of himself.

Now I do that a little bit. See, I would have gone to you with like a 50. Oh, easy. Then you're in. On you go. A 50? Are you kidding me?

A cigarette would have got you in. It's like, it's fine. So what is the future then of the art world? Do you think about that? Yeah, I think it's cyclical. I think that, but like everything else, I think we're at a point where everybody's divided. Everything is like all in one place.

In everything. In everything. Yeah, yeah. So there is going all in one place. And everything. And everything. So there is going to be some kind of reckoning. I mean, it is unsustainable the way it is right now because thankfully a lot of the great art is in museums. Right. But if they don't have money to stay open, and some of them are in financial trouble. Not all of them.

A lot of them have a lot of, you know, but for example, in France, if you think that the major museum, art museum in Paris, which is the Pompidou. Right. Now, it has quite a large administrative budget, but its acquisition budget for the whole year is 2 million euros. What the hell are you going to do nowadays with 2 million euros? What is that, like 40 bucks? Yeah.

Yeah. So that's why. And you cannot, as a, you know, the wealthy, such as Bernard Arnault or Pinault, all these people, they've started their foundations because they don't get a tax break if they give to a natural museum. Oh, right. So we don't have that in France. It doesn't have charitable state? It does not have charitable state.

It does in America, though, right? Yeah, in America, it's much better. And so that's why museums are still, and also, yeah, you can actually really deduct from your taxes. And it's very, it's part of the fabric of the United States. It is, actually. That's true. I mean, every town you go to, and I go all over the place.

Yeah, there is always something. And some of the towns, like Louisville, Kentucky, has an amazing contemporary art scene. It's like, I don't know why I didn't think it. Because it wasn't done yesterday. It was done several decades ago. It was like Detroit. You know, Detroit was incredibly wealthy, of course,

when you had all the car companies that were just roaring. So what will you do then? So I think what I'm trying to do is completely different. I'm trying not to really be in that sort of, well, I'm not in the same kind of world. The idea has always been for me to be a good steward to my family's history, to organize exhibitions, to continue.

Do you still have a lot of these pieces then? I have, yeah, I have quite a few. I also have collectors that are entrusting me with their collections. I may not have a large Picasso print collection anymore because I unfortunately got divorced several times. I'm familiar with that condition. I figured. But I do have a beautiful one that we've been traveling through the country.

Right. And I have other exhibitions and I have other shows. And the idea is to be a good steward and whatever we can make out of that, I reinvest it with young artists that I believe in, that I feel are not getting the chance to really show their work in other places and hopefully at some point people will pay more attention to them

and they'll feel attracted. But then again, it's very much my taste. It's funny though in the art world as well, because you can be unsuccessful until well after you're dead, and then your career can really take off. Right, but then again, how do you qualify success? I mean, I'll never be a billionaire, because if I take all the money that I make with this and I put it back with these young artists,

I'm not doing it for the money. Yeah, but the only thing as well is that I see a lot of... I'm still very successful. Yeah, it's funny. Success is a very interesting definition because the idea that, like, you want to be Jeff Bezos? No.

No way. No disrespect to Jeff Bezos. No, absolutely. But I don't want to be you. No interest. None at all. Certainly not Elon Musk. Yeah, no, none at all. I mean, like, do you want to be you. No interest. None at all. Certainly not Elon Musk. Yeah, no, none at all.

I mean, do you want to be... It's interesting. I think, you know, it's like, well, it'd be all right if I had their money. Really? How all right are they? I don't want that. I'm okay as long as I can buy a scotch, pack of cigarettes, and...

Well, you're French. You're French. Scotch, cigarettes, cheese, a bit of wine. Yeah, I need the cheese. Scotch, cigarettes, cheese, a bit of wine. Yeah, I need that cheese. Yeah, cheese, a bit of wine. It's a nice conversation. But I like working on projects with artists,

and so I work with a lot of printers here. But while we don't print ourselves anymore, I still have a few presses in a warehouse in case I ever want to reopen a print shop. Oh, like King Arthur for the Britons. When you're called again, you will start the presses again. Start the presses, Eric. There's something that sounds quite like, oh, it's time.

We have to start the presses. We have to print giant pineapples and put them all over the world to calm everyone down. Exactly. to calm everyone down. Exactly, but you know, truly, again, a little less politics, a little less religion, more love. I think the world needs more love.

I kind of agree with that. We got to get out of here. Oh, I know. I'll see you next time. sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL.

And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.