Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Justin Willman

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

"This week on Joy - Justin Willman - who for my money is the most entertaining practitioner of craft since Houdini - explains why magic makes you cynical and I tell him how to meet a ghost. Top notch episode," Craig Ferguson says. Willman is best known for hosting and executive producing the Netflix series Magic for Humans — showcasing a diverse array of tricks, from mind-bending mentalism to classic sleight of hand. His new Netflix series, The Magic Prank Show premiered April 1st (April Fool’s Day). It’s a mix of MythBusters, meets Impractical Jokers, meets Black Mirror. Along with his new series, Justin will be going on a 100 city theater tour starting this June with Outback Presents. Tickets available here. EnJOY! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad, and I had the best memories and the greatest experience, and that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre

and audacious cons in rock and roll history. We were all facing 20 years and all that good stuff. The lead singer tried to pull off an English accent and they went on the road as the zombies. These guys are not going to get away with it. The zombies are too popular. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Will?

What's that, Mango? I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we've done over 250 episodes, we don't really talk about murderers or cults. I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money. And then, of course, can you game a dog show?

So what you're saying is everyone should be listening. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. When I do live gigs around the country, I'll be honest with you, I sell t-shirts and swag to the folks who are there. And then people always say, can we get the swag without sitting through a whole evening of you? Well, it's happened. It's finally here. You can buy Craig Ferguson merch on the Craig Ferguson merch website, and you can buy it for yourself or someone you hate or someone you love. For more information and link to the web store, please go to thecraigfergusonshow.com. That's all lowercase, thecraigfergusonshow.com. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy.

I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. Today, my guest is Justin Wilman, who is not only the acceptable face of magic, but actually the entertaining and interesting face of magic, but actually the entertaining and interesting face of magic. His show Magic for Humans on Netflix was where I first saw him. He's amazing and very interesting, as you're about to find out. So, first of all, let me just say this to you you because i try not to fawn on people when they're here but really in all honesty everyone who's on this podcast i'm either a friend or a fan of now you and i have just met yeah and i'll happily be your friend and hang out with you but i'm not

your friend yet i am a fan of your work and that puts me at a slight disadvantage. I'm kind of on the back foot a little bit, because I'm very impressed by what you do, and I don't get impressed that easy. Like, magicians. And I don't think of you as a magician alone. I mean, I think you're a magician, and you do other stuff, and you present, and you have a comedic vibe, but you don't have the creepy weirdness of magician.

And I'm kind of concerned. Like on your sleeves, you don't have any like long sleeves. So I know you don't have like project, unless these are false arms. You never know. I got here at 5 a.m. I rigged the couch up.

Is there a kind of a fraternity or is there a collegiate sense amongst magicians even now even although you're you're kind of the own phone terrible of that whole thing though aren't you i'll look that up yeah what you are is you're kind of like you're the punk rock man you're you're the change you're the you're the kind of new generation you're you're it's all different you don't have a cape you're much less rapey then you're you you have, it's all different. You don't have a cape. You're much less rapey. You're, you,

you have a very different vibe about you than what I think of is, you know, classic show magic. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of compliments to unpack. Right. Okay. First off.

Right. The fact that you said you're a fan, this is very surreal. I didn't know that you knew who the heck I was. Oh yeah. No, I'm such a fan of you. Oh,

stop. I have always been, you know, everything about you. I've listened to interviews with you. I just't know that you knew who the heck I was. I'm such a fan of you. Oh, stop. I have always been everything about you. I've listened to interviews with you. I like you a lot. So this is very cool for me to be here. You're not in the back foot at all. No, well, that's great. But now I feel like I'm going to disappoint you. No, okay. Well, listen,

likewise, as a magician, I always have that fear too. Well, I'm not going to ask you to do any tricks at all today. I won't ask you to do any tricks. It's not tricks. What is it? Illusions, Michael. Illusions. Illusions. Tricks is fine. But you don't have an assistant wearing a big thing. Would you

ever play Vegas? Have you ever played Vegas? I just did Vegas for the first time a week ago at the Venetian. Right, that's traditional. My first time on the Strip, probably on the Strip. I'd done like the Suncoast or the... That's right. Yeah, the off the strip one. The Orleans is where I stayed.

The Orleans as well. You feel like you're in Vegas until you walk out the front door and then you see Vegas in the distance. Yeah, I love the Orleans though, because I felt like I was part of the Rat Pack. The sign was still the kind of shitty writing. So old school. So smoky.

Fantastic. Anyway, so you played. Did you wear a cape? Didn't wear a cape. Okay. Didn't wear a top hat. No lovely assistants. I think I went through those phases early on.

When you were just incredible. When I was just incredible. Exactly. Wow. That's such a great start off name for a magician. I think it's fantastic. It was like this catchy name my mom came up with when I was doing kids' birthday parties. And I don't think I ever had to cape them, but I certainly wore tux in public as a teenager.

That's all right. I mean, my oldest son was very into magic when he was a kid. He used to... Rick Thomas? Yeah. He loved Rick Thomas. He was on your show a couple of times, right? Yeah, he was. With the big cats. Did he bring the cats ever? I don't know. I can't remember. I used to Rick Thomas yeah he loved Rick Thomas he was on your show a couple times yeah he was with the big cats

did he bring the cats ever I don't know I can't remember I used to have magic you had a lot of magic I remember Ed Alonso is a good buddy of mine

yeah that's right yeah yeah we went to see a bunch of magicians when he was that age he kind of moved on and moved into animation and that's how it became like his artistic expression

but for a while, Chris Angel, I guess Chris Angel was a kind of, I guess that was a kind of hair metal part of... Yeah, not punk rock, but very... It was new. It was a little goth at first, right? And then it was kind of like Kiss. He was kind of, you know...

But there is that kind of thing with the younger magicians that you guys do stuff that you can't see the the illusion it's like the you know it's like the oh i'm levitating oh there's a thing oh there's how can he have end up his sleeves he's not going any sleeves it's like it's disarming it's really freaky like that magic for humans show that you got netflix i'm like i don't know what the fuck this guy is up to. This is crazy. It's like, maybe he's a demon. Yeah. Yeah.

A demon in a, in a, in a boyish costume. Well, you are boyish. Yeah. Uh, so how did it started off for you?

Cause I always think like, cause you're a standup as well, sort of kind of, you've got that vibe, right? And you do stand up. I do. I've never done stand up without magic involved,

you know, but I do chunks between tricks, you know, and that happened, you know, when I went to Emerson College of Boston, I was just incredible. I was doing kids' birthday parties on the weekends and then I befriended Dan Levy, who's a standup comedian. He became my best friend, not Dan Levy, Dan Levy. And we roomed out here in LA at the Oakwoods, and he would go up every night, you know, and always be working on new material, whereas a magician tends to hone the same thing over the course of their career.

Oh, you have to, I guess. Yeah, I mean, like all the greats, you know, I would go to see Lance Burton, and I would go to see him do the doves that I'd heard of. I'd seen him do, you know, these polished classics, but, you, but the comic mentality is kind of always be moving forward.

I always think of, because I know a lot of stand-ups, and it's kind of my thing, and the mentality and the inside mental workings of most stand-ups is pretty dark. And then I've met a lot of magicians, and the stand-ups and the inside mechanism of most magicians I'veups is pretty dark. And then I've met a lot of magicians and the stand-ups and the

inside mechanism, most magicians I've met, is pretty dark as well. I mean, it feels to me like you're jewel addicted at a certain point. I mean, it's like, is there a real kind of... Is there a darkness? Well, there's got to be. Everybody has a darkness. Everybody has a darkness. But, you know, like, Dan was my liaison into the comedy world. And then, you know, we'd bounce around town. And I would be doing new stuff all the time.

Get out of my comfort zone. But he also has no darkness, right? He's just this sweet, bright, happy optimist, you know. And I have a darkness. You know, I've had, you know, there were, you know, addiction little stints along. Oh, yeah? Like, when we first moved to L.A., you know, L.A. kind of. Well, yeah, you can run into that. Yeah, you know, there were addiction little stints along the way. When we first moved to LA, you know, LA kind of... Well, yeah, you can run into that. Yeah, you can have the wrong neighbors.

I had the wrong neighbors when I first got my first apartment. What was your thing? It was, well, it eventually became crystal meth. I never took crystal meth. I feel like I've been sober for so long that drugs have been invented since I got sober. And I never got to crystal meth. What is it? It's like speed? Yeah. All right.

It's like speed on speed. Yeah. Like, you know, I think there was a part of me that just like I had this FOMO, like I just didn't want to miss out on anything. But also I had this addiction to what I thought would make me more productive and effective and on for longer. And that's kind of what it's for. It makes you think you're on for longer.

I liked the feeling of the uppers as well. And I'm glad because when I was into drugs and alcohol, the bass notes never sung to me, the heroines and that kind of thing, which I'm quite glad of because that seemed to kill people much faster. Whereas cocaine to me, it was cocaine back then, you know, there were steam trains, cocaine, phones had big circles on them. It was just a better time. Simpler times. But I always thought of cocaine, it just kind of like helped me drink more.

Yeah, they're kind of like a one-two. Does Crystal Meth do that as well? That kind of does it? Yeah, yeah. It was kind of, you know, I wouldn't, I mean, alcohol was a thing for me for a while. I only just now this year, January 1st, you know, kind of cut out alcohol together. Okay. So, which was a even more of a,

like I have more pride for that than, you know, the drugs. Because the drugs was, you know, it was, well, society's not constantly telling you that doing crystal meth is okay, but society's constantly telling you that you got to drink to have a good time. So that's some brainwashing that takes a while to undo. It really is.

It's an odd thing. But when I started, when I was doing stand-up, at the beginning, I was drunk a lot while I was doing it. And then performing sober took a bit of getting used to. I can't imagine for someone who does something as clever as what you do, that being impaired on stage is something you can get away with. It's not pretty. It's not pretty.

Yeah. It's not pretty. Sometimes, you know, like I would be, I would, you know, have a drink or two before a show. And I say sometimes, you know, like last year. And, you know, sometimes it would, if I'm doing the, you know, the show that I'm really comfortable with, it would almost be like, you know, let me throw myself a little curveball of impairedness. And let's see how you get out of this one, Justin,

you know, this almost like little self challenges that come out. I get the boredom of routine. Well, that the routine. And also I think somewhere in there and I'm, I don't know why I'm going here with this, but,

but there's a sort of deservability of it. Cause it, you know, you're like, you're a comer, man. I mean, it's like you're,

you're on the way to being like, you're big now, but you're going to be this huge, big, giant career. And I think when you're a kid and you want that, it's like it's in front of you and it's aspirational and somehow it's not as frightening. But when you start to get it,

and you're getting it now. You're getting the kudos and the stuff and I'm sure the money's coming and all the flattery, which is the real currency of show business. It is. It really is. It's like how much flattery have you got for the person that it starts to freak you out. Does it freak you out a little bit? Because success can be a little scary.

Yeah. a little bit? Because success can be a little scary. Yeah, I think maybe that's what at first, first moving to LA, I kind of felt like I skipped a step. I booked a commercial a couple months in LA.

I remember when that thing was on the air, I felt like Tom Cruise. That's when the bad neighbor influence of celebrating that success took over. And then you're kind of panicking of like, well, I can't let this go. You can't rest on your laurels. So how do I keep this engine going?

And now I feel like I've been in LA for 20 years and I feel like I'm a little more stoic about those what's next things. Like a little less over the moon, let's throw a party because some milestone happened and more like, yeah. Yeah, it's a job. Yeah, it's a job and that's great. It's a great job. Yeah, exactly. It's a great job, but it is a job.

And I think that what's kind of funny, I always felt about Los Angeles and show business, and in fact, the internet as well, they all fall into the same category, which is, it's only dangerous if you take it seriously. Right. skill that you have and it's something that i also that made me feel free as well is that no matter what happens you can get on top of a soapbox in the street and earn enough money to pay the rent true and that's that's real freedom my friend that having having a trade yeah that you know well yeah you can throw money into a hat it's kind kind of, you know, providing a service. Musicians have the same thing, like a proper musician. If you need to auto-tune to make your music, then you have to make sure you can afford one.

Right. But if you can create it, and I imagine you create the illusions and the stuff. Now, that's part of what you do, right? Yeah. Is that you design and make this stuff yourself. Yeah. I've got like a brain trust and, you know, in making the TV show and anything,

all the live stuff, it's a lot of, you know, what old ancient ideas can you reinvent? What's an old trick that, you know, like I've got all these tricks that I've got crushes on. Do you have these old magic books and- Tons of books, you know. Oh, I love this. But, you know, you get to a point where when there's a lot of eyeballs on you, you can't just do stuff right off the shelf, right can get away with that when you're doing gigs that aren't being put on the internet. But when you're kind of...

You're the big guy now. Yeah, I can't just do the trick that I buy at the Hollywood Magic. So you kind of have to figure out what your spin is on it. And I love that. That's the hard work. But I do... I often think one day the luggage is not going to arrive. And I know it's not about the tricks and the props.

But I know I could go to a Walmart, give me 45 minutes, and I could put together an hour show and do it that night. Do you think you could get rid of a body the same way? If you had inadvertently committed a homicide on the road? It would be a good Amazing Race episode. Yeah, well, I just think, I mean, if you can put together stuff like that at Walmart, it's just a very useful skill to have.

It is. Yeah, I'm kind of impressed. It's a magician brain. The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand-Up tour continues throughout the United States in 2024. For a full list of dates and tickets, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour. See you out there. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage.

I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast, Miss Spelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words

that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation, just not feeling stressed, just not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm

proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. that feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia,

in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry. We're going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone. We're going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life. We're going to be talking with some of my best friends. I didn't know we were going to go there on this. People that I admire. When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life.

Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right? And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life. I already believe in myself. I already see myself. And so when people give me an opportunity, I'm just like, oh, great, you see me too. We'll laugh together. We'll cry together and find a way through all of our emotions. Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one.

Listen to A Really Good Cry with Raleigh DiVlucia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Is there a kind of society of magicians? It's like, are you a member of the Magic Castle? Member of the Magic Castle. Then there's a society society of magicians? It's like, are you a member of the Magic Castle and all that kind of stuff? Remember the Magic Castle? Then there's a society of American magicians. There's an international brotherhood of magicians. But ladies get in too, obviously.

They do, yeah. They should work on that title. The title's a little antiquated, but... International brotherhood and sisterhood. Actually, here's the question. I don't know any female magicians. Now as I think about it, I mean, I'm sure there are many, but I don't know any. There are many, but I mean, obviously not enough.

Right. There are more and more. Yeah. But there are some great female magicians. In fact, in Vegas, Jen Kramer is the only, I believe, the only female headliner magician in Vegas. And she does a great show, and she's super funny and super sweet. What happens with magicians?

Are they like stand-ups? Do they get together after the show and complain about young people and stuff? Or all the magicians who did it the wrong way? I think they do. I mean, I have groups of magicians who will come to my shows, you know? Right.

And in any town, you know, the magicians kind of get together and they come to the show. But I know that what happens after is they go to Denny's and they rip it apart, you know? And there's a bunch of like, you know, like magicians love to, you know, the tall poppy thing. Obviously, yeah. You know, you kind of, anyone who thinks they rise above, you know, screw them. And I think, you know, I remember when David Blaine first came out, magicians just couldn't believe this guy was getting so famous

doing tricks from the magic shop. There was a lot of hate for David Blaine. I was guilty of this as well. I don't think we got the big picture, which is he's kind of reinventing the context of experiencing magic. It's just a guy in a t-shirt on the street, and he's just

blowing people's minds, and we're living in that. We get to see true human wonder. He's a little bit of an underground for you, actually, isn't he? He's a little bit of an influential figure. If I think about what you do, he's older than you. But what I think you combine

and what I don't think that David Blaine... Look, I'm a layman. I don't know how good the the illusions are but they seem pretty impressive but what he doesn't have is he doesn't have the charm and I feel like with you I don't know if it's practiced or I don't know if it's not you're just lucky I suspect you're just lucky that you're just you're you're just lucky. I suspect you're just lucky that you're just, you're charming. And that helps with the magic. But charming people and stand-ups usually have a tricky start in life. How was yours? How was my start prior to that? Because I started doing magic when I was 12. And you asked me when I was 12 with the deck of cards in my pocket what I wanted to be when I grow up, I would have said magician. So I'm kind of like this unicorn, got to call his profession at a young age and somehow

pulled it off. I mean, and it's almost like I don't remember much of who I was before I discovered magic. I don't think I was charming. I think like- No, I don't think charming. I knew I wanted to be those things. I knew I idolized like Johnny Carson and would watch him every night and stay up late with my parents. Because Johnny was a magician as well.

Johnny started as a magician. And that kind of, you know, I remember my dad telling me that offhand. And it was kind of like, because you see Johnny and you're like, how do you get to be that? How do you get that job, you know? And I used to love seeing what jokes would make my parents laugh. And I didn't know why they were, I didn't get the joke, but I would want to like decode it like a puzzle. Are you from a big family?

No, so small. So I've got a sister. Right. It was me, my sister, my mom and dad in St. Louis. And no cousins. Oh, really? So my parents' siblings didn't have kids. Right, so it's pretty quiet at Thanksgiving.

Pretty quiet. You know, my mom's parents had both passed away. Was it a happy time in your life when you were a kid? So happy. Yeah. My sister and I often talk about how we, I mean, we're very close. She and I are very close.

She's a few years younger than me. How we both feel like we had the best childhood. Our parents were very supportive, but my dad was an airline pilot, so he was gone a lot. Right. My mom was an interior designer in St. Louis, but a workaholic. Right.

An incredible mom, but wouldn't get home until 7 o'clock at night. So we were kind of a little bit latchkey kids, who we would get home and make ourselves our snack ourselves. Yeah, that sounds a little familiar to me as well. I mean, my dad worked in the post office, but he was like, he was on mail trains, and he was away a lot. And my mom was busy. And I think that, you know, my wife has this theory, the all stand up, I've said this a million times on the show, but that all stand ups have the same mom, which is cold with bad boundaries. And every stand up And every stand-up I see it to goes, oh, fuck you, man.

And all magicians, I think, have the same mom that just smothers them with love and tells them they can do no wrong. Right. I think it is a little bit like that. There's something to that. And I think, which is kind of interesting, because you've got a little of both.

Your mom was a workaholic, but clearly you adored her and she adores you. So it's like, and she came up with Just Incredible. Yep. So clearly was invested emotionally in what you were doing and supportive of it.

So you get a mixture of both, which makes perfect sense if you're a stand-up magician or a magician stand-up. Yeah. You've got the recipe just correct. It's perfect. What about now?

Because you're a dad now, right? I'm a dad now. Right. Love being a dad. Yeah, you know, I kind of like it too. It's perfect. What about now? Because you're a dad now, right? I'm a dad now. Right. I love being a dad. Yeah, you know, I kind of like it too. It's the only other thing I always knew that I wanted to be. Besides being a magician, I always knew I also wanted to be a dad. What age are your kids?

Five and one. So five and a half and one and a half. That's actually pretty good. Pretty good. You're in for like the 10-year good bit. Yeah. And then I guess. And, you know, the five and a half year old,

you know, he's at the point where, you know, we have these amazing times and moments, but he, he can be difficult, you know, like he can be difficult.

And now it lets me really enjoy where my daughter who's one and a half is, where she's not difficult yet, you know, like, cause I feel like I took that time for granted with my son where it's, you know, they're just, they're just angels, you know.

And now, you know, I get to have that again. Yeah, I know. I mean, it kind of seems to be circular though. I mean, look, everybody's different. Every kid is different. But it seems to me like sometimes when I had trouble with my boys and then two hours later, it would be fine, you know. But they're unpredictable.

I think when you have kids you go from being the star of your own movie to being the extra in a movie about someone else interesting it's like yeah here's the thing that's coming up for you as well this happened to me right here in la when my oldest boy was about 14 15 something like that we were at Gelson's. We were just getting some groceries and stuff. And I saw a girl look at him. And she wasn't looking, she was a young woman, she was a teenage girl,

but she wasn't looking at a guy with his son. She was looking at a guy with his dad. He was the guy. And I was like, oh my God, I'm the dad. He's the guy. And it was kind of a weird movement. But I kind of love it now because now I'm just getting older and older and older and older. I don't know what the fuck is going on with it now.

And just like collapsing physically. But it's a weird ride, man. I love it. What goes on with ambition for someone like you? Is it a residency in Vegas? Is it playing Radio City? Is it stadium magic? Is there such a thing?

I know. It's crossed my mind. These days, seeing these comics who you wouldn't think are stadium comics just become so popular that they can play stadiums and it plays you wouldn't think are stadium comics, you know, just become so popular that they can play stadiums in it. Yeah, they're not really stadium comics. They're comics playing in a stadium that has giant screens. So people get together and watch giant screens.

So you could do close up magic. And I do use screens like because I don't have big boxes. I don't do everything i do in my show like and i don't know i think it's uh came out of just practicality like i never you know i was doing gigs you know private parties and stuff where i just had to arrive with everything i just set everything up myself that shouldn't be expensive as well surely yeah so like all those kind of big those big toys uh i think always felt like i i I always never wanted to come off magician-y. Like there was something, like I love magic, but I'm also embarrassed by it, right?

Yeah, I get it. I think I always, like magic was, you know, what the first thing I discovered that I was good at that made me want to perform. But I always deep down just really wanted to make people laugh more than anything. Like I just, because of the people that I looked up to and admired, and I just felt like that was this thing that you didn't need to have a trick on you to be able to be funny and make people laugh. So incorporating that with the magic was always important to me. And I think my first goal, my milestone, was just to be taken seriously as a comedian magician.

Because as a magician, we're kind of the chiropractors of the entertainment industry. It's a little bit like the hate that Carrot Top gets for being a prop comic. But the weird thing is, I know Scott. Have you ever met him? I've met him, yeah. I mean, he's a weird guy,

but I defy you to go and see that show and not laugh. That's Sean Vick. It really is, right? I mean, it's crazy that he gets such hate from comedians. And then you get to know him and you go, well, you don't even need to get to know him. Just go and see him. And you're like, my God, this is hilarious. And I mean, clearly that's a, it's kind of a high, I mean, he's way more, it's just prop comedy.

Right. It's not like. But he'll do a chunk of just stand-up. Of just stand-up. Between the cases. But he won't do anything approaching the level of illusion that you do. It's not anything like that. Right.

I mean, it's just joke, joke, joke, visual joke, ordinary joke. You know, I mean, it's like, do you, when you're constructing a show, do you think, well, I've done too much? You know, behold, I've done too much, you know, behold the dove, and now I have to, you know, two guys walk into a bar or something? I do, you know, for me, it's like as I'm constructing a show, like right now, you know, I just finished this prank show that came out on Netflix about a month ago,

and, you know, did Magic for Humans, and I kind of feel like, gosh, what trick, what tricks are left, you know, did magic for humans. And I kind of feel like, gosh, what trick, what have I, what, what, what tricks are left, you know, like, and I'm sure just like a standup has the illusion of writer's block, you know, before they kind of work through it. It's the same thing. Cause it's, you know, I kind of want to do something that feels like I'm not just doing a trick. I want it to be about something or I want it to be autobiographical or, or have, have some, some meat on the bone. That's great, though.

I mean, I think that's fabulous. That makes it a more complete experience for the audience as well. It makes it personal. Yeah, some message, some kernel of wisdom or question that lingers with you. But you come of age in an odd time for an artist, though, because the beast, the headless borg that is entertainment is so fucking ravenous that if you repeat yourself more,

I mean, I've taken hate on this very podcast for telling a story twice. You know what I mean? That's the thing, is that people start to get hip to just the same magic plot dressed up. They're like, I'm the same as that other thing you did,

but you're using a marshmallow instead of a ball or whatever. So that's what's tough, especially when magicians for years have honed their act over the course of a lifetime. Right, exactly. And then people can binge it in a night and then they expect something new a week later. It's a very greedy machine.

It's a very greedy machine. But also a machine that is very forgetful. I find a little bit short term it's easy to I think, oh god everyone's going to know that this is that bit from here and then I'll realize

people a year or two later, you put a little new touch on it, and it's going to feel brand new. At least, with magic, is, people might remember a punchline to a joke,

or, you know, they want to go and hear their favorite song, but with magic, you know, you can see it once and enjoy it yourself. They go again, and it's like, oh,

I think I know, I'm going to watch closer this time. Still enjoy it. Still have their mind blown. There was a guy that I saw, maybe you remember it, you'll know his name, I think I'm going to watch closer this time. Still enjoy it. Still have their mind blown. There was a guy that I saw. Maybe you remember it. You'll know his name. I can't remember his name.

It was like one of the few times I've been in the Magic Castle. I think he was Brazilian. Okay. And he was an older gentleman. Based on his wax? Based on his wax. He actually was wearing pants and a jacket. And he was very old school.

And he was in a small room. And the magician that I was there with said, no, come see this guy, because this is the guy all the magicians are coming to see. And he was some guy, he was South American, I think Brazilian. He had one arm. He only had one arm. I think he genuinely only had one arm. I think Argentinian. Argentinian, maybe that's it. Rene LaVar.

That's the guy! And he used to say, he would do a trick and then he would say, it cannot be done slower. And then he would do it slower. And you still wouldn't know what was going on. I never saw anything like that in my life. Is he good? He's so good.

He's, I would say, one of the on Mount Rushmore of close-up magic maestros, you know. And he's recently, he's passed away since. Sadly. I mean, it was a long time ago. You killed him, right? Yeah.

You killed him. Apparently, it could be done slower. He's still doing it. He's doing it even slower now. He had, gosh, I don't know if he didn't have one of his hands or if it was just, you know, unusable. No, it wasn't a fake thing. All right, okay. I mean, if it was, he played the long game because it was for decades and decades.

He would perform with his hand in his pocket, I believe, right? And he would do it all with one hand. Card tricks, but then his famous trick was three, I think, three balls in a cup. Now, not the cups and balls, but like a little teacup or an espresso shot cup with a little mug and then three little balls of clay. And he would say, watch, he would drop them in one, two, and the third one he'd just throw it away, put it in his pocket.

And he'd say, it can't be done slower. Then he'd tip the cup over and there's three again. And you're like, okay, I'm going to watch. Close. One, two, get rid of the third one. Three again. And he would do it over and over again. Can't do it slower, can't do it slower. And he was so famous for this. Oh my God. That's just never seen it.

And I think it was Ed Alonzo that, that, uh, took me in to see it. I was there and, uh, he was a friend of a friend and, and he said,

no, you come in and see this guy. Cause I remember Ed's the guy that pulls the chicken out of his pants. Isn't he? Uh, Oh, wait, well out of his pants.

Where does Ed put the chicken these days? It's not in his pants anymore? Well, he has the duck from the straight jacket. It's a duck. It's a duck from a straight jacket. It's not a chicken from his pants. That's a completely different show.

It's a different show and it wasn't in the magic castle. But that, I mean, working with that, I've never seen you do anything with animals either. You don't do that? Well,

so when I first got into magic and I think around age 14, 15, I discovered Lance Burt. Right. And I'm sure you had Lance on your show many times. A couple of times, yeah. He would do his dove act that he was famous for, which is him in a tuxedo and kind of

classical music and he's, you know, handkerchief, boom, dove. Right. Gloves turned into doves. And there's not, I mean, honestly, even to this day, like there's nothing more, you know, eye candy, tricks per minute, magic in your face. You don't need to speak the language. You're just watching, and it's incredible. His six-minute dove act is just the best piece of magic I've ever seen.

I, of course, wanted to do that. So I got all the VHS tapes, and by 15, I had like 13 doves in a cage on our porch. And I would, you know, obviously, I'm spoilingiling too much the doves have to go somewhere right so they're probably right you know secreted on your person in your pants or whatever and i would do uh this dove act and you know is there an animal cruelty uh aspect it's gone it's gone it's gone out of fashion a little bit i mean i you listen, I mean, I was never, I loved my dubs, you know, very, very much, but you are doing something

quite unnatural to them. They have to be at a dark place for a little while, and then they have to be in front of a well, that's why you should use rabbits, because rabbits live in a hole under the ground. They don't mind a dark place. That's true. You put a hat on a rabbit, it's like, I'm home. But then the rabbits all of a sudden, you know, like, oh, what the hell? Yeah, no, that's true. It would be a on a rabbit, it's like, I'm home. But then the rabbits all of a sudden, you know, like I used-

Oh, what the hell? Yeah, no, that's true. It would be a fright. Now, you're probably best staying away from all of that. I did, like the, I cut it down to one dove eventually. And I was, when I first moved to LA, I was doing kids' birthday parties. So I had a dove and a bunny. I would open the show with the dove and I'm closed with the bunny.

Right. Book ended with the animals. But I was, one time the dove flew into a tree in a backyard and i had another gig to go to so i was trying to like not panic but i was like okay i'll come back later and i came back later and they they were not happy to see me when i came back because they explained that shortly after i left a hawk oh no ate the dove in front of the kids oh my god that's probably best you stay away from the kids' birthday parties now. I mean, although I'm sure...

Is it legal even to do that with animals now? I don't know. I mean, tastes have got to have changed. I mean, people are not... Remember, circuses used to have elephants holding each other's tails. We just know so much now that even if we see an animal not mistreated, just the idea that now you know this animal is basically a prop after this beautiful performance where it looks like it's happy and fluttering about. It's going to go into a cage and into a car.

It's hard to not think about the epiphany. What about the tigers, the Siegfried and Roy thing? Is that still going on in Vegas, the tiger acts and stuff? I don't know that tigers are happening much these days. Yeah, I think... It didn't end well. No, that's true. I mean, I had my brother-in-law and his wife just went to the zoo yesterday,

you know, take their kid, and there were protesters. This is Mother's Day. There were protesters saying, hope you enjoy your Mother's Day while you're supporting the kidnapping of animals. You know, so even... The L.A. Zoo? The L.A. Zoo.

I used to take my boys to L.A. Zoo. I love going to the zoo. Yeah, except the flamingos. You don't like the flamingos? I don't. They pee on themselves to stay cool. And to stay pink. That's the secret.

Yeah, and is that true? Is that what keeps them pink? They pee on themselves to stay cool. And to stay pink. Right. Yeah. And is that true? Is that what keeps them pink? I mean, I don't know. But I was thinking of the John Waters movie there. Yeah, that's a different type of thing. But the smell of the flamingos, because they pee on themselves to keep cool. I don't care for it.

But everything else is. Did you see the baby hippo? I guess it's grown up now. I didn't see the baby hippo. I missed it. It's probably just a hippo now. But it's grown up now. I didn't see the baby hippo. I missed it. It's probably just a hippo now. But it's like the LA Zoo. I mean, sure, there was the blackfish, the SeaWorld time,

and it's easy to get against that. But are we heading to a place where we can't even enjoy animals in a way of learning about them? I don't know. I'm not qualified to talk on this, but you know what? We should get somebody on this podcast and then you have to come back and defend your position maybe you could lose it lose you know using vertebrate animals like animals like maybe uh you know a snail or you know a

hamster something hamster's not invertebrate but it something that's small enough that you're not really uh or yeah you're not you're not, a hamster is only going to be impressed if you bring a hamster at your pants. It's like, oh, Richard Gere did that years ago. Richard Gere's giving a standing ovation because he can't sit down. That is the oldest joke in the world that we've done that again. So how does it go in terms of you're a young magician and you come out here. you know clearly you're married

now i am um is there a kind of sexy rock and roll part of magic are there are there followers uh who who kind of are interested in you romantically because of what you may have up your sleeve as it were i mean i i mean i will say there's something um there's something so uh magnetic and mysterious about magic and magicians i agree right i agree i mean yeah the just like comedy you know like any any any comedian i mean i have several comedian friends who you know don't want if you're gonna if if you got a girl who they might be interested in or whatever, it's like, just have her come to my show. I want their first impression to see me doing my thing.

Almost like you're afraid of them meeting a normal person. But there's something alluring about defying the laws of the universe and how do they do this that is obviously naturally attractive where in that book, The Game, one of the techniques is you know learn close-up tricks you know to to entertain people on dates there's something romantic and and just i think it's quite cynical though uh that because i noticed there's there's stuff online there's like incels in the middle east to put together clips of me talking to actresses on the old late night show.

And they're like, flirt like Craig Ferguson. I'm like, yeah, that's not really what's happening. That's a late night show. And then I don't see these people after that. So it's kind of like, it's almost like bring doves out of your sleeves. It's not you, Ken. No.

And for me, the girls that i was always drawn to are girls that certainly weren't into magicians you know like it was almost like i had to overcome what being a magician being a magician you know or just because of all the things that are pre you know the baggage that magicians bring along well they do have historically a kind of creepy vibe i mean that but i think that was more just changing taste like the like a society changed you know a sort of mysterious gentleman with a cape on became a little more jack the ripper and a little less gentlemanly i guess do you know what i mean it's like under that cape nothing nothing's under that cake. Take a look. Yeah, as opposed to a giant killing. No, it's fashion, I think, as well.

As much as anything, performance is subject to fashion. Even stand-up, there will be jokes that you can't do now. Sure. I think, I mean, I don't lament it. It's just what it is. It's just that now it's seen as mean-spirited. Perhaps it was always mean-spiritedited but it didn't feel that way at the time or you weren't aware of it maybe that's what i mean if anything there's this cachet of

of you know a good magician is maybe hard to trust because you think well they're just really good at lying how do you ever know when they're telling the truth well how do you know they don't have a secret life going on well yeah i think that's probably true. Yeah. Remember that movie with Christian Bale and what was it called? Hugh Jackman. Hugh Jackman. The Prestige. The Prestige. Did you like that one?

Loved that movie. Yeah. Was that the one? Maybe it was another one. There was one of them that said, to be a magician, you have to be the smartest man in the room. Is that? Sounds like Michael Caine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it must be The Prestige. If you want to be a magician, you have to be the smartest man in the room there we go do you think that's true? yeah I guess so is that the draw for it then for a little kid?

were you tubby as a kid? no I wasn't I was scrawny I was short and little short maybe I did the same thing big old frock of curly hair see I was my nickname was tubby when I was a kid so I think and little. Sure, maybe I did the same thing. Big old frock of curly hair.

See, my nickname was Tubby when I was a kid. So I think achieving my way out of being Tubby was a real driving force for me. I was like, I gotta not be Tubby. I think I just was... The draw to magic for me was that I felt like it made me

special for the first time. I was mediocre at all extracurricular activities, but when I discovered magic, I was, it felt like it made me special for the first time. You know, like I was not, I was mediocre at all extracurricular activities, but when I discovered magic, I was the only magician in my school. And so automatically I was special. And then I was okay. I was decent at it. So that made me more special. And then people would want to be like, hey, just come over here.

Show us that trick. You know, like you kind of like, wow, finally. Yeah. Special, you know. What about the idea of the prestige trick the you know the the water tank for houdini and all that kind of stuff is that is that a thing for you is there a is there an illusion like i want to have a crack at that one have a crack at that trick yeah well i mean i there's bits in my show that i that i that are kind of my babies, my opener and my closer that I do, which I do, I want to shoot a,

you're asking like what's next. What I want to do is, and I'm going to do later this year, is like a live standup magic special, kind of like a Netflix standup special. But do it live? Well, not live, but just live on stage. I would love to do it live.

I don't think I'm famous enough for Netflix to get behind it as a live event. Tom Brady roast. Did you go to that Tom Brady one? No. I don't like roasts, man. I don't get it. I just don't get it.

I'm like, why would a person put themselves in that position? Was Tom Brady going to get out of that? Money. Hopefully. Lots of money. Maybe that's what it is. Yeah, of course. I would say the big takeaway that everyone, at least was in my mind,

is like, wow, what a good sport. Yeah, yeah. Like all the little jabs, kind of all forget. You forget them by the next morning, but you're like, wow, he really took it like a champ. Yeah. I wouldn't be. I don't think I'd be that good a sport. I'd be on replay in my head. I'd never sleep

again. I'm like, oh, Jesus. Can't do that. I don't know. Anyway, so is there a big thing? Is there a big illusion? You know, or a stadium show? Is there a stadium show? I mean, you said you were thinking about it. There hasn't really been.

I mean, there are. I think that's the end game for you. I think it has to be. It has to go to that point. Yeah. I mean, Steve Martin did Arenas, right? Yeah. Just a guy with an arrow in his head.

Yeah. We've got the things. Pretty talented stand-up as well, though. He's a very talented stand-up. He's a pretty talented guy. He did the things. Very artistic in his leanings and also a musician. things. Very artistic in his leanings and also a musician.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down and out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast, Miss Spelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce.

Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation, just not feeling stressed, just not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things.

That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Guess what, Mango? What's that, Will? So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius. I know, that's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years,

and it's called Earthquake House. Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there. Why don't we just tell people about our show instead? Yeah, that's a better idea. So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most important questions. Things like, when did America start dialing 911? Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto. Also what happened to Esperanto? Plus we cover questions like how Chinese is your Chinese food? How do dollar stores stay in business? And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese?

There absolutely is. And we are risking our lives by talking about it. But if you love mind blowing facts, incredible history, and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune into part-time genius. Listen to part-time genius on the I, and really bad jokes. Make your brains happy and tune in to Part-Time Genius. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you religious?

Are you musical? What else? I love music. I feel like all magicians many magicians really wanted to be a musician because there's some and all stand-ups as well and oddly i've found that so many musicians love magic and wish they could do magic right so which means you can't win right the same with same with uh musicians i've met really famous musicians like, I want to try stand-up. And I'm like, please don't. Just continue to play the guitar.

Yeah. I mean, I am not religious. I was raised going to church and stuff, but that kind of all fell to the wayside. What flavor? Presbyterian. Presbyterian? So there's not a lot of tricks going on in Presbyterian. There's no

kind of biscuits turning into Jesus or wine turning into... I mean, it's all representative, right? Right. You could turn a staff into a serpent, you know? There's a lot of good material in the Bible. None of it's on its feet, you know? It wasn't a church that had the props.

Well, see, I was raised the same way. I mean, we were told we were the chosen people, but all we got was a white room and a heater. Right. It's like, I'm not sure that's the... But I think the whole vibe of all religions seemed to be you're the chosen people and everyone else is a little not the chosen people.

Not the chosen. Are you raising your kids... Jewish. Jewish? Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. All right, that's fine. Yeah, I think that's good.

Our timing's great. Yeah, it's a good choice yeah my wife is Jewish yeah my my oldest son's mother's Jewish he's Jewish you know

it's like yeah and honestly like I I love it I feel like like I just did you convert? I didn't convert

right you know because there's a price to pay as a gentleman if you want to convert I mean a little snippity-snip. Oh, yeah.

Never too late for... Yeah, yeah. Every time I go and see my doctor every year in Los Angeles, Jeff Graham. He's my doctor. He's an old Jewish gentleman. I love him. He's my friend. We hang out when we're not working together.

But every time he gives me the exam downstairs, every year, he looks at my penis and he says, you know, I can fix that for you. And I'm like, I don't want you to do that. But that's interesting. Are you quite observant? We do Shabbat on Fridays when we're all in the same place, when we're not out of town. We do a proper Passover. We don't go to temple every week.

So we're technically less observant than I was as a Presbyterian but right but here and I would you know if for me it's really just about the there's just you know kind of just the cultural and the rituals and the tradition of the tradition it just feels you know there's nothing I can't get behind you know and it feels really good I agree I mean, there are aspects of all areas of all worship and spirit. I'm not a religious person at all in the sense that I follow any doctrine, but I'm kind of interested in all of it. I think that the idea of it, but I wonder as a magician,

does it make you cynical about that? Well, I think, yeah, magic makes you cynical about it a lot. I'll bet. Because every night you know exactly what you're doing and how you're doing it. And you kind of have this a little bit of a, magicians call it magician's guilt, where you kind of feel guilty knowing that what you're doing is so simple, yet it's making people experience these profound levels of wonder, you know, best case scenario.

You know, like, it's also what I love about it. But I also, you know, I just, it's hard to, just like when you work in television, it's hard to watch reality TV or anything that is saying that this is happening right now without being like, no, it's not, there's this, this, this. Like everything that happens behind the scenes. And I think with magic,

the magician brain is always coming up with ways to solve problems. So it is a bit of a superpower outside of magic. Well, it's analytical. Yeah. I mean, it's like, how do I make it so I can do it? Yeah.

So you remove yourself from the age of miracles. Like I would love to experience a ghost. I would love to have... Been to Scotland yet? I haven't been to Scotland. My best magician pal, my right-hand man, my co-creator for Magic for Humans, is a Scottish gentleman, Stuart

MacLeod. Right. There's a lot of Scottish magicians, actually. Yeah, there's small dark rooms where you can practice stuff. And he's got, you know, he's a lovely father of almost two coming soon. But he's got this, you know, you can tell he's got a darkness within him. It's just part of his superpower.

But he was part of a magic duo, Barry and Stuart, which I don't know if they were ever on your radar. I don't know them, but that wouldn't mean anything because I'm not that clued in the world. You don't know each other. Well, you know why? I've got to tell you why I had Magic Week on the late night show. I used to have Magic Week every week on the late night show, but it wasn't really because I loved magic, although I do love magic. What happened was a friend of mine who worked on the show was in Las Vegas, and he got a little out of control and he inadvertently stole a vehicle and got about 20 yards down on the show that night. No, he just worked on the show. And so I get a call and they said,

hey, I won't say his name, but he was in Vegas and he's in jail. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? So eventually I make a call to a guy who calls another guy and eventually I talked to this judge in Las Vegas who I'm sure is no longer a judge in Las Vegas. It was 20 years ago.

And I'm talking to the judge and I'm saying, look, this guy, it's not a thing. Clearly he made a mistake. We'll get him out of there. And he went, yeah, but you know, it was pretty bad. And the cops were mad. And I said, well, you know, look, if I say nothing to him, he said, well, actually I do represent a few magicians.

You gotta be kidding me. The judge said this? No fucking kidding. So I said, yeah. The judge is also a manager the judge was a manager so so i said yeah well i'm magic we cut the show and i enjoyed it so much i mean and look the magicians that he was representing you know they were it wasn't you do you know what i mean it was it was other magicians and um but you had his roster on. And I loved it.

It was exactly the kind of vibe I was going for on that show, which was kind of like, okay. But no one knew it was secretly community service. It was sort of community service. It was a mixture of corruption, the mafia, and community service. See, magicians rule the world. It was very interesting. There was certainly a lot going on behind the scenes that nobody really got to see.

Wow. But that got your foot in the door and then you were no longer forced to do it, you did it willingly. Well, I did it willingly and also I had a son who was fascinated by magic. When Milo was, I guess, three, four years old, he used to watch this old timey stuff. There was a guy who used to bring alarm clocks out of his hat. Would you know what I was talking about? Back in the 1930s or something.

And they would come out ringing. Right. He would bring these alarm clocks out of his hat. And I remember it was when DVDs were in the back of the car. And I would put the DVD in if we were going on a road trip. And I would just hear him laughing his ass off and go, another alarm clock out of his hat! Another alarm clock!

At four? At four, yeah. He loved it. I mean, he directs animated movies now. He'll make much more money than me, but he was fascinated by it then. So I got kind of into it then, and then he was really into Chris Angel when he was a kid,

and Chris I invited on the show, and he was so sweet and such a nice guy and he's a great performer but he was also really nice to be around and that really it just kind of drew me in a little bit you're right magicians are very it's very seductive kind of world i can see how and it has that inner sanctum feel if you know this trick you're kind of further in and if you know this trick you're further in. That appeals to my inherent sense of low self-worth. Well, it's this little secret society because it requires so much solitary work, where you're practicing or as a teen, you're just kind of reading and you're obsessing. Just like I'm sure with comedy, no one's going to write your act for you. You're kind of reading and you're obsessing. And just like I'm sure with comedy, kind of like, you know, no one's going to write your act for you.

You're kind of trying to just figure it out. And then you kind of find this group of people who all did that same weird, dark, solitary thing. You find your people and you have this past in common. And magicians in particular, you know, have a, you know, there's so much magic history and there's so many tricks that have been done and there's so many references and terms.

And, you know, like you almost have a secret language that you can throw around with magicians you know like that's stewart mcleod and i like we can kind of read each other's minds and have a conversation where you don't know what we're talking about but we're kind of you know coming up with a trick or kind of figuring out a method and it's it's really cool is there a is there a kind of anthony bourdain world where you can you know you can go to other societies and other cultures, you know, like when Tony Bourdain would go and see how Libyans eat food or how the food was in Vietnam. Is there, is there that for magic? Is there a, is there a, cause every society has their, their magi, I mean, so is there a world where you can go and do that? Is that, I mean,

do that for Netflix, that'd be totally, yeah. I mean, what is there a world where you can go and do that? Is that, I mean, do that for now. Sure. It'd be totally, it'd never be in that. Yeah. I mean, what traveling around the world and dipping into other, other countries, magic. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, David Blaine did a little bit of that, you know, where he would go to, you know, more remote places in the world and really just to show how magic

is this universal language, you know? Right. So you'd watch him amaze people who maybe, who have never seen a television before, but before but they're you know he's making berries go from one hand to the other it's very visceral but yeah i mean even despite the language barrier right there's this magic universal language where it's it's a human desire isn't it there's a human desire for food and there's a human desire for wonder but what you supply is wonder with the you know the kind of wink that this is not really magic i'm just very clever right it's empty calorie wonder right now but is there is there a part of you that still that believes in i don't know, Santa Claus, but in something beyond the pale,

are you, you know, is there a, would you, like, is there a UFO or a ghost, or is there a something that you go, I can't explain that, and it makes me feel weird? I mean, the universe, where do we all come from, is this unexplainable thing that obviously religion, all of them can explain it for you in some way, or form i mean unsatisfactorily yeah exactly i mean like i i believe that ghosts could exist i believe that aliens probably do exist i would love to you know like all of that it fascinates me you know how where like how insignificant are we you know in the big scheme of things how many of us are there is all so but but i don't um in terms of magic like even though it's clear that i am a i'm i'm a liar right i'm a fancy

you're a performer i'm a performer i'm spinning a yarn and i'm trying to create this wonder and illusion you know even then people still are like i know you have to say it's all a trick but but that one was real. You know, like, you know, we so want there to be something real. And I so do. You know, like, I love going to the Magic Castle and being blown away. Yeah. So you still get out?

Yeah. That's great. I mean, it's harder to fool you. Just like I'm sure when you go to see comedy, you know, it's, you know. There is not a comedian on earth I would pay money to go and see. No? No. There's not one comedian, living or dead, that I would pay money to go and see. But if you happen to be in the

back of the comedy store and someone comes up and you've never heard of this person at all. I've never been in the comedy store in my life. I would never go there. No, never. I don't know what it is. I just, I can't even, is that Groucho Marx thing? It was like, I can't, I would never, you know, join a club that would have me as a member. I wish I could.

Even when I was doing Late Night, I remember having a conversation with Jimmy Kimmel about this, and he was saying, we should all get together and have lunch or something because there's so few of us that do it. And I was like, I don't think so, man. And then when I left, they did. Yeah, they did a podcast together. Yeah, they did. That's what I was like, I don't think so, man. And then when I left, they did. Yeah, they all did a podcast together.

Yeah, they did. That's what I was talking to, because I ran into Seth Meyers a couple of weeks ago, and he said, yeah, we all got together and did this podcast during the writer's strike. I went, oh, thanks. But the truth is, I wouldn't have wanted to do it. Why? How come?

I don't know. I feel like I, I don't know, maybe it was coming of age during punk rock. Maybe it's snobbery. I don't think it's snobbery. I think it's a lack of self-worth or something. I don't know what it is. It's a strange thing.

I can't really explain it in myself. Maybe underneath all of this shit, maybe just a little bit shy. I get that. Yeah. I get that. Because it is, I mean, that is maybe one of the most exclusive clubs there is of late night talk show hosts.

Who, and only you, you know, the dozen or so who are even still living, right? No, no. Have experienced what that life is like. Yeah. What that pressure is like. What the thrill, I'm sure, is like. I remember Seth Meyers called me when he got the job doing the

other show and I was still doing Late Night and I said to him, congratulations, you'll go fucking crazy. I saw him a couple of weeks ago and he hasn't gone crazy. He's the only one I know that hasn't gone crazy. Everyone else has gone crazy. I don't think Seth is crazy. What do you think? His mom

loved him? No, I wouldn't go that far. I don't know his family. But what he has, he had something that I was very lucky to have as well. He had little kids. And I had little kids when I was working. And they don't give a fuck. Right.

It's like, you know this, you can come off the, wow, that's the best show I've ever done. I've made up a trillion dollars. You come home, the kids don't give a fuck. And eventually your wife also doesn't give a fuck. Well, no, that happens very quickly as well. As soon as the kids arrive.

I mean, I guess that's probably what does keep us from being assholes. It's what you need. You need to have it. You need to have it. It's the counterweight. I mean, I think that It's what you need. You need to have it. You need to have it. It's the counterweight. You know, I mean, I think that it's funny though. It's not that they became bad.

It's just that it's a weird world. I tell you a story about a year ago, I was in LA and it was early in the morning. I was in to do some work and, and I was in a hotel. I thought, God, I need a pair of sneakers. It was 10 a.m. I said, I'll go to the Grove.

It's just open. I'll go to the Grove and I'll get a pair of sneakers. It was 10 a.m. I thought, I'll go to the Grove. It's just open. I'll go to the Grove and I'll get a pair of sneakers before anybody's there. So I go to the Nike store and I'm looking at this wall of shoes and I felt this tap on my shoulder. I turned around. It was fucking David Letterman. And Dave said, how long have you worked here? And I said, fuck you.

What was he doing there? That's what I said. What are you doing here? And he said, the weirdest thing, I was in LA. It's 10 o'clock in the morning. I thought, I need a pair of sneakers. Wow. And he, it was the exact same thing.

And then Jay Leno comes around the corner. And then Leno comes in. And then weirdly enough, the ghost of Johnny floated in. And then everybody bowed down to that. Right. And then Shandling does work there. Oh, Shandling. It was just such a, it's a weird, weird world.

I'm still a little afraid of Dave, even though I haven't worked with him for over 10 years. But I think I was always a little afraid of him and I'm still a little afraid of him now, just because he's so impressive. So if somebody said, let's say I say, and I am now, it's always felt like the dream job. It's the ultimate goal.

It'll bring me the happiness I seek. Would you try to talk me out of it? Yeah, I would try to talk you out of it. But actually, no, I don't know, because I think you're part of the new generation. I think you're like Seth. I think you're like, I think you're not. I think I remember talking to Bill Hader about something like this because he was talking about the the the vibe in Saturday Night Live when he worked there and he said you know I said was there a lot of rivalry because when I came up performers were very you know there's a lot of rivalry between performers and he said no it's much more collegiate and and he said I think that might be a generational thing and I think he might be right I think that there be a generational thing. And I think he might be right. I think that there is a movement,

a better movement among younger people, really, to be less assholey, if possible, to other people. It's just the pressure is like, don't be a dick. There's nothing impressive in that. And it's not as aspirational to be an unreasonable asshole as it used to be it's true and it and it could be bad for your career actually and that's really why people don't do it i think but i think it is a little less bitter and strange but maybe that's just because i'm

i feel like i'm on the other side of that now so i don't know but is it one of those things that you know i got the job and then it's just a constant treading of water to keep the job or to make the higher up happy? No, it doesn't become that. Here's what's wrong with it. Here's what I found wrong with it. You walk into a building, I'm probably repeating myself and I'll make people angry, but if you walk into a building every day and there's pictures of you everywhere, there's 150 people working the offices, 150, 200 people, there's pictures of you everywhere. There's 150 people work in the offices, 150, 200 people. There's pictures of you everywhere. All the stationary has your name on it.

Your name is written everywhere. And everybody you meet from when you get out your car until you get back in your car on the way home has one real goal in mind, which is to not piss you off. And that's great for about a week. and then it starts to make you paranoid and then it makes you distrust everything and so i think that's when the emperor has no clothes right and i think you clearly are someone who's intelligent and and not narcissistic um but a performer so you know you will have tendencies, just like I think all performers have.

You have weaknesses, like we do. It's part of the fabric of being a performer. But those weaknesses can be played on by not even unscrupulous individuals, although they're certainly that, but more just the situation. And I think you have to clever people, and Dave was actually very good at this as well,

you surround yourself with a kind of wall. And that's when you start hearing stories about, oh, you're not allowed to look them directly in the eye. I've heard that about Tom Cruise. I heard that about David Letterman. I heard, like, if you walk down the corridor and they see, don't look them directly in the eye. I've heard that. I've heard that about Tom Cruise. I heard that about David Letterman. I heard, like, if you walk down the corridor and they see,

don't look them directly in the eye. You know what was the weirdest thing about it? Eventually, I heard that about myself. Wow. And it's probably something that comes from the people around you who just are trying to protect you. Right.

They say it becomes a thing, you know. Yeah. But it's not true. You can look me in the eye. I'm doing it right now. I know you're doing it. It's freaking me out because I think you're up to something can look me in the eye. I'm doing it right now. I know you're doing it. It's freaking me out

because I think you're up to something. Nobody gave you the memo. This has been such a great time to meet you. I am now your friend. I love this. Thank you. I remain your fan, and that's great.

Thanks for coming in and continued roaring success to you. It's spectacular what you're doing. Thank you, Craig. This brought me joy. Great! I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from

Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Will? What's that, Mango? I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we've done over 250 episodes, we don't really talk about murders or cults.

I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money? And then of course, can you game a dog show? So what you're saying is everyone should be listening. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. We were all facing 20 years and all that good stuff. The lead singer tried to pull off an English accent and they went on the road as the zombies. These guys are not going to get away with it.

The zombies are too popular. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.