Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Kathie Lee Gifford

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

On this week’s episode, Craig talks to his friend of many years - Kathie Lee Gifford - an American legend who needs no introduction. Kathie shares the emotionally compelling story of her run-ins with Howard Stern, expresses her love for Craig and Ricky Gervais (her two favorite comedians), and highlights her views on Jesus, faith, and science (along with how each comes together in her everyday life). This is part 1 of a two-part interview - look for part 2 to be released in a future upcoming episode. enJOY!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said, like, in my head for, like, 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez.

And on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad. And I had the best dad and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. We were all facing 20 years and all that good stuff. The lead singer tried to pull off an English accent and they went on the road as the zombies.

These guys are not going to get away with it. The zombies are too popular. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. in Boulder, Colorado. For the full list of dates, please go to my website, thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour, where you can also buy tickets or not. See you out there or not. My name is Craig Ferguson. This podcast is called Joy. It's not rocket science.

I talk to people I like about their pursuit of happiness. Here's Kathy Lee Gifford, an American legend. She loves Jesus, TV, country music. Enjoy. I'm so happy to see you. I went to bed last night with the biggest smile on my face. I said, I get to see my Howard, my Craig tomorrow.

Yeah, we're ready to go whenever you want. Yeah, we'll just go. Can I be a little louder in here? Because I'm going. He's such an eagle mania. He wants a little more of himself. I want a little more of you, too. Yeah, I like to.

If only you did. It's just because of that slut. So this is called joy. It's called joy. Lord,. So this is called joy. It's called joy. Lord, please bless this time together with Craig and help us not to be too naughty. In Jesus' name, amen. Okay. I don't look.

I am not one to scoff about prayer. No. You know, I am not. I wouldn't describe myself as a person of faith, but I am a person of doubt, which is on the way to faith, right? Yes, and some people's journeys are quite long. Yeah, I think mine's taken a while. But I feel like that prayer you sent up there about, Lord, help us not be naughty, I think that— In a hurtful way.

Yeah, I just think— I mean, I'd love to be naughty with you any time you're ready and you get rid of that, you know, woman that's— No. Why is she still there? Now, wait a minute. You know, sometimes I think she asks herself the same question. So, listen. She's the type of woman you want to hate because she's so beautiful.

She's so smart. She's so everything. And then you meet her and you love her. You're talking about my wife. No, the other one you have. But listen, I know that you're very private and I respect that. You know what? Let me just say at the start of this, because this is an unusual set of conversations for me.

Yes. That we are going to talk about joy and we are going to talk about joy. And we are going to talk about that. And I wanted to talk to you about it because you and I have a friendship. Yes. Which I love you. I adore you. And I don't agree with you in a lot of things. Not in a lot of things. But the most important things.

Go ahead. I think that's true. But I think that I see so much of people can't be friends unless they all think along. Yeah, the cancel thing. Yeah, that seems a little, I don't know. It's stupid. Yeah, it's a little stupid. We can learn from everybody we sit down and have a conversation with.

Why would we want to block off? First of all, it's the antithesis of my faith, which is, I don't say that my Christian faith, because I was born to a Jewish father and a Shiksa mother, which is a Gentile mother. And we didn't grow up with any organized religion in my life at all until all of us came to an understanding of faith in the person of Jesus, who in the Hebrew is called Yeshua. And all of my family did. And so when they say, what do you believe? I said, I'm a follower of Jesus. And even you and I have conversations quite a bit when we were on set for our movie, Then Came You, which is available on

Netflix now, if you want to know. But I said, you said that to to me and I've told this story on a couple of occasions because we had a break in shooting as you always do in a movie sure

and you said and I can't do you without doing you that's alright because I I used to have your head I used to be in my head I had you down perfectly

so I won't do it today I will avoid it you can I give you permission it's really alright you can totally because I just adore you.

I'm sitting across from you and it's been a couple of years. It's been too long. And they put you too far away from me. I can't even reach you under the table. Well, then somebody's reaching me. I don't know. You got your channel changing stick down there? Something's happening.

Anyway, yeah, you said, basically to me, Kathy, why do you love me and Ricky, meaning Gervais? Right. I said,

we're not great guys is the way you said it. And I thought, that's so not true. Well, Ricky's a great guy. I don't want you to think that I think Ricky's not great.

No, you continued to say, we don't believe like you. We don't believe in your faith. We don't, probably don't vote the way you do, but

why do you love us so much? Because you knew I did. And I said, well, first of all, you're unbelievably lovable, and you're aging like a fine wine that you no longer drink. But anyway, you are created in the image of God, both you and Ricky. Plus, you're the funniest, smartest, dearest people. There's so many good things to love about you. Why wouldn't I love you? To which, here's the thing. You said, no person of faith has ever told us before that they love us. And I said to you, well, then you've never met one before.

To be fair, I don't know about Ricky. I mean, he probably gets told people love him all the time. But when I was, I mean, we're going to... People of faith? That was what that was about. He gets told he's... What's not to love about him except maybe... I can't think of something.

Right. But, you know, you love what you love. But let me just say, let me talk to you a little bit about joy. We will talk to you about your faith and about Jesus. That was it. All right, good. Yeah. All right, so we're done with that.

Now, I want to talk to you a little bit about joy because the reason why I wanted to have discussions with people about it is because you, to me, are an example of someone who has gone through, particularly recently with Frank and all that that you've gone through a lot of stuff and I saw you I remember seeing you I think at the Today Show wasn't long after Frank had passed and you had that kind of quite speedy vibe of someone who was in grief and in shock, which is, but you also had something else,

which is, I suppose, is your faith. I don't know, you'll tell me. But you are someone, to me, who seems to be, in adversity, able to turn to a joy of some kind, or maybe it's wrong to say, but manufacture it in yourself or procure or find it from somewhere. Would that be accurate, do you think? No, I'm sure it seems like that to some people.

It was actually a week after Frank had passed. Now, I had found, just for people who don't know this story, and it's been almost eight years now, Frank, since he passed. He had been sick. He had a lot of CTE. Was that CTE. Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy. I can't say the last word. Encephalopathy, which is brain damage from concussion after concussion after concussion. Oh, from the football. Mm-hmm. It was a Sunday morning, a beautiful Sunday morning. It was Hoda's birthday, August

9th. And I remember, it remember, the things you remember are crazy, but this is why, this is an answer to why I was the way I was during this quite, would have been traumatic experience for somebody that didn't already cling to God the way I have for so many years. I've always said, you know, there's no bad time to find God. But the worst times, you're grateful you already cling to him. You just cling tighter at a time like that.

And so I heard him get on his scale. The man was one week shy of 85. And naked, he looked from the back. The man was 30. You know, he worked out still. He exercised his brain, what was left of it. We didn't know because you don't know about CTE until you do an autopsy. And we weren't going to do that on him before he was gone. I thought that would have been rude.

It would have been a little, yeah, it's hasty. It's people frown on it. It might even be illegal in some states. I don't know. Not anymore. Eugenics, baby. Bye-bye. You're breathing air and leaving a carbon footprint. Bye-bye. No more. So anyway, no, he was an extraordinary man to the day that he did pass. But I heard him get on his scale, which he did every day. And it said, your weight is 178 pounds. And I remember thinking, oh, it's going to be a good day. That was his playing weight for all those years. And that was his favorite weight. So he was extremely disciplined in lots of ways. Now he enjoyed life like crazy and God knows he made mistakes. Nobody knows that

like I do. But he was a good, good, solid man of a different era, Craig. A different generation. He grew up during the Depression, ate dog food as a child and was grateful to have it. His father was an itinerant oil worker. I mean, they lived, I think, I don't even remember, 30 different places while he was growing up. So he never was able to put down roots anywhere. But the one thing that he could stand out at every time he moved to a different place was his athleticism. And so that came to be the thing. He was a terrible student.

Later, when he got a scholarship to USC to play football, he became their finest scholar athlete. He was so grateful to have an education. I was going to ask you about that. Was Frank a grateful man? Was he a joyful man? You know, that's such a great question because you would think he was grateful. And that's why we didn't bring a class action suit once we got the results of his brain scans. A lot of people whose loved ones had worked in the NFL joined this class action suit because the NFL knew about this. They did. And Frank was,

he said, no matter what you find out, Kathy, when I'm gone, I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want our family to be. He said, I am so grateful for the life that I have had that the NFL afforded me. When he wasn't playing for the Giants, he went back to California and sold fertilizer in Bakersfield. That's what the NFL was at that time. Nobody was a full-time football player. They only played it for the season. Everybody else had jobs. A lot of them came back from World War II with half of their life shot up.

Connerly, who was his best friend there and was the quarterback. And they became dear, dear friends. And he had just come back from World War II. So, you know, it's a different world. I'm 23 years younger than Frank was to the day. So, I would hear the stories he would tell, and I would have such respect and admiration for the kind of human beings that existed then. We hear so much today about the entitlement, about the cancel culture, all of that stuff, which just demeans and diminishes the human spirit.

Everything Frank talked to me about celebrated it. Yeah, I want to talk to you a little bit about the cancel culture thing because I do have a knee-jerk reaction a little about it myself. But at the same time, I think, you look at my you know my oldest boy is 22 so he's kind of in that in that world that world and and you you know and I want to I want to have an open mind about the youth you know like the way you have an open mind about people who are not Messianic Jewish Christian. Which is most of the world. Right.

Which is, I think- I don't want to cut off most of the world because they don't agree with me. Right. And I don't want to cut off the, I'm not sure with cancel culture if it's really like that for most of them. You know, I think for the kids, I mean, when I say them, I mean, I'm talking about young people. What do they call it, Gen X or Z?

Is it Gen Z now? What do you do now? We've run out of that. We're going to pick up the Greek alphabet? I don't know. I think, though, that my youngest boy, Liam, is 12. So he's just coming into a generation. I don't know what the generation is called,

but I think they're going to be different. Let's just say he's 12. You know what? Can we just say he's 12? He's just coming into a generation. I don't know what the generation is called, but I think they're going to be different. Let's just say he's 12. You know what? Can we just say he's 12? He's 12, I know. And he's adorable. He is. He's gorgeous.

He reminds me of Stewie in Family Guy. Yeah, I don't think he would be insulted by that. He'd be proud. He'd wear it as a badge of honor. I want to be called, Dad, call me Stewie. Yeah, although I think I'm a little like Peter Griffin as well, which is a little sad. I'm like, I'm Brian the dog. Well, yeah, a little bit.

No, you're with the wine. Hey, this is a latte. I'm about to graduate, though. Are you? Now, listen, there's another thing that I admire about you. You can drink. I can't drink. I know you can't.

But have you ever had a problem? Did you ever feel like, oh, boy. Yeah, at times, definitely. Of course. Oh, that makes me feel a little better. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But here's the thing. If Jesus is my model, and we go back to Yeshua, Jesus.

Right. People have no idea because they don't study rabbinically. The Western Christian world has no idea of our roots. They don't. I've had people even say to me through the years, now Jesus was Catholic, right? And I go, do you know what year the Catholic church came to be? I forget now, but it's like 590 AD or something like that.

I said, Jesus had long since died, resurrected, ascended to heaven. And no, he was not Catholic. He was a Jew, a rabbinic. He was a rabbi, and he was a Jew, a perfect Jew. Was there a moment that kicked this off for you? I remember it as, I'm going to be 70 years old this year. I can't even believe that. That's not true.

Damn good do I look. I need to know which moisturizer you use because you. If only it was just moisturizer. You know what? That's for our lunch afterwards where you and I usually talk. Yeah. No, I do. I'm actually developing a skin line. And all of the botanicals that are in the skin line come from the Bible.

What? Yes. Who was the greatest seductress of all time? Salome. No, even before that. Cleopatra. Cleopatra? Cleopatra used all these things.

There was no CVS or some Lord and Taylor she could go to. Everything came from the earth. And so what never changes? Truth. The scriptures are built on truth. So we started looking at the Bible and the botanicals that existed at the time. Some have gone. You really genuinely are telling me you have a skincare line based on the reading of the Bible?

Yes. I am both appalled and delighted to hear that. Well, if it were 2,000 years ago for the greatest seductors of all time, Cleopatra, why would it not work for me and for you?

And the beauty of it is it's called Nila. It's not out yet. We've been in tests, you know, trials for it. And my skin has never been better than it's been in my entire life. You do look well, I have to say.

Thank you. But listen, you sidetracked me talking about the skincare line. I want to talk to you about... Yeah, that's not even that yet. I had no interest in talking about that. Your epiphany, your moment, your literal come to Jesus moment.

Okay. This is not the moment I'm thinking of, but I fell asleep. I was a little girl living in Annapolis, Maryland. I looked up, and it was fall, and my daddy and I were raking leaves. And I looked up, and there was Jesus sitting on a cloud. That you actually saw. Yes, in my dream. In your dream, right.

In my dream. And he looked down at me. Baby Jesus or grown-up Jesus? No, grown-up Jesus. Okay. And he looked down at me and he smiled, and I knew it was Jesus. That was it.

That was the dream? Uh-huh. Years later, now I'm 12 years old, I believe, and I go to a movie, not unlike the new movie Jesus Revolution, which is out right now. That's the time period that I was growing up in, in the early, in the 70s. I graduated in 1971.

That was when the Jesus Revolution was really starting, and I was already a part of it. But when I was 12, before that, there was a movie called The Restless Ones. First movie that the Billy Graham organization ever put out. And if you watch it today, it's one of the most dreadful dreck. Even my kids looked at it, and they looked at my mom. This is awful. I said, at the time, it wasn't. Billy Graham was so, so criticized for it.

You can't make a movie. The devil lives in the movie theaters. The devil lives in the bass drum. The devil lives in the nightclubs. I can't argue with any of that, Kelly. That's what's always attracted me to all of that stuff. I know it. And left to your own devices, it still would.

But here's the thing. Billy Graham knew something deeper because he didn't have a religion. He had relationship with the living God. You know how anti-religion I am. Yeah, that's what I'm kind of fascinated by because your faith is unshakable. Yeah. But it's almost like a contempt for religion. The contempt I have for religion is not that people love their churches and love to go and hear the Word of God. All of that is wonderful. I have contempt, just like Jesus did, for the leaders of the church that do not feed the flock, that abuse the privilege of power, that misuse it.

So I'm talking about organized religion that has gotten so big and so powerful, not unlike our government, that it thinks that it is God. Instead of teaching the people, you know, to follow their good shepherd, they said, wait a minute, no, no, you're our flock. To me, it sounds like you're a little bit, did you ever encounter the writings of the Desert Fathers? Have you ever come across that? No. Evagris of Pontus or Origen? I've heard of all of this Desert Fathers. Have you ever come across that? Evagrius of Pontus or Origen. I've heard of all of this, but no. Origen of Alexandria was an early Christian theologian

from Alexandria in Egypt. I think it was like his father was a Christian martyr. He was, Origen was, I think, around 200 AD. So pre-church. well not really pre-catholic church oh yes pre-catholic but the original church was started with Jesus yes so he's pre-catholic church and and he he got excommunicated 500 years after he died they got very angry at him because he said, God can exist only in the mind. There can be no physical manifestation in the sense of, which is not what you want to hear if you're selling tchotchkes, I guess.

You mean tchotchkes? Say it right. It's Jewish. Tchotchkes, tchotchkes. It's Yiddish. It's my accent. It basically means crap yeah but I think that I think that to me it sounds it sounds to me like you your Christianity for want of a better word that that you're following of Jesus has a very early early Christian feel about it like first hundred years after the resurrection.

Yes, that's exactly. When people who don't just, it's not that they're ignorant people. They just don't know. There's different kinds of ignorance in the world. There's, I just didn't know that. And then there's willful ignorance. And I find so much,

so many Western Christians are ignorant about their early history, ignorant about what the Word of God actually says, only because they've never been taught. And that's what I get angry about, Craig. That we have people graduating from seminaries all over the world right now who don't even know that Jesus wasn't a carpenter. That's a bad translation. He wasn't a carpenter? No, see?

There you go. This is the kind of stuff from studying rabbinically like I have now for a long time. You find out what the word tecton in the New Testament is the original word for builder slash architect. For what Joseph and Jesus did to make a living before Jesus became a rabbi. And it all goes back always to bad translations of the Word of God. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, ancient Hebrew, which is still the same Hebrew. Okay. Yeah.

Do you read Hebrew? Yeah. I don't, but I study the reading. I study it. Right. But I can't sit down and read backwards and all that stuff. No. I study with the world's greatest biblical scholars.

Many of them are messianic and otherwise they are rabbis. And rabbis are the most learned people in the world according to scriptures. I mean, they just are. They go ten layers down. But they don't always agree, rabbis. No, that's the whole point of being a rabbi. They fight all the time. Because it's not fight, they argue.

And they argue, and by arguing, this is what's wrong with culture. They learn. And they start to ponder another person's opinion. And their take on something. And that's what good, honest discussion should be like. Respectful disagreement. I, Craig Ferguson, will be hitting the road again this summer and fall, bringing the Fancy Rascal Tour to your region. For tickets and full list of tour dates, go to my website, thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour.

Come see me live or don't. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation. This not feeling stressed. This not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of.

I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you've got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell if you come through some trials you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone you're going to you're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up to not quit listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts guests. Hello, everyone. I am Lacey Lamar. And I'm Amber Ruffin, a better Lacey Lamar. Boo. Okay,

everybody, we have exciting news to share. We're back with season two of the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. You thought you had fun last season? Well, you were right. And you should tune in today for new fun segments like Sister Court and listening to Lacey's steamy DMs. We've got new and exciting guests like Michael Beach. That's my husband. Daphne Spring, Daniel Thrasher, Peppermint, Morgan J. and more. You got to watch us. No, you mean you have to listen to us. I mean, you can still watch us, but you got to listen. Like if you're watching us, you have to tell us. Like, if you're out the window, you have to say, hey, I'm watching you outside of the window. Just, just, you know what? Listen to the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber

show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever Back in 1969, this was the hottest song around. So hot that some guys from Michigan tried to steal it. My name is Daniel Ralston. It's the time of the season for the beast. My name is Daniel Ralston. For ten years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. A group would have a hit record, and quickly they would hire a bunch of guys to go out and be the group. People were being cheated on several levels. After years of searching, we bring you the true story of the fake zombies.

I was like blown away. These guys are not going to get away with it. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think we could talk about religion for a long time and in our friendship we have talked about religion for a long time. Yes, we have. But there's another part of you, there's another area of you, which I think most people

are aware of, but even if they don't know, you are a very earthy person. You're funny. I'm a little bawdy. You're a deliciously bawdy. You're funny. I'm a little bawdy. You're a deliciously bawdy sense of humor. Thank you. And you're funny and you're naughty and you're earthy.

And I mean all of these things as compliments because you know I love you. I know, sweetie. And I find that fascinating with what I understand of doctrinal... Holiness? Yeah. You know what holy actually means? Set apart for sacred use. Okay. It doesn't mean perfect.

It doesn't mean you've got a halo over your head. It means set apart for sacred use in Hebrew. And that's what I am. And I think every human being is wired to be set apart for sacred use. I'm not going to stop having the sense of humor I have. I was woven in my mother's womb before the dawn of time. So was my mother. So was your mother. So was Liam and Milo. That's Jehovah God Elohim, the creator of all things. And so that's not going to change. And the world, in quotes, does that.

It tries to change us and make us cookie-cutter Christians or cookie-cutter Jews or Mormons. It's all the same. Have you run into conflict? Oh, all my life. I was kicked out of the brownies. I was kicked out a few years later. I was kicked out a few years later. I was kicked out of Sunday school. A few years later, I was kicked out at the age of 17, the America's Junior Miss pageant.

Why? Because I questioned things that were stupid. And I knew innately that that's not true. I'll tell you a perfect example of religion and relationship. In Jesus' day, when he walked on the earth, which he did for 33 years, the people who followed Jesus would understand, because they'd grown up this way, that the trees, and there were no big trees then. There were just sort of glorified bushes back then.

Israel was a desert. Those trees, the trees that you go to Israel and you see now, have been planted since it became a nation in 1948. I've never been to Israel. Oh my gosh, you and I are going to go one day and it's going to, it'll continue to blow mine and it's going to, yours will go flying off your neck. Okay. Okay. And so, it's so, so interesting.

So, back then, in Jesus' day, certain trees represented certain groups of people within the Jewish culture, the Jewish people. Just one that everybody would know is the olive tree represented God's people, the Jews, to them. What the sycamore fig tree represented back then were the religious leaders of the day. The Pharisees and the Sadducees. Oh, that's so true. So Jesus was cursing them for not caring, not feeding the people, lying to them, cheating from them, misrepresenting themselves, abusing their power. Oh, I see. I love this.

Did any of that sound familiar? Yes. Nothing's changed because human nature doesn't. That's why we need the Holy Spirit to live within us. That's the only thing that changes our innate nature. All right. So you live with the Holy Spirit within you. Yes.

So that I'm going to say then. I think you do too, but that's another discussion. We're not talking about me. So the idea of joy within you is from that, I think. I think it's fair to say. It comes from knowing where I came from and who I came from. Now, give me an example in your life. In the secular world, give me a piece of adversity in your life

where you turned immediately to that to, if you like, seal the wound, stop the flow? You know what I mean? Is that something that- Oh, there's so many. I have a lifetime of it, a lifetime of history of, that's what keeps me going. I still have tough things that happen to me on a daily basis. But as I said earlier, I cling tighter to the one I know has never betrayed me, never let me down, never lied to me. My rock, the rock of my salvation. And so, I'll finish the little story about finding Frank an hour later, and he's gone. He's gone. At first, I try to resuscitate him, and I can't.

Cody, my son, is home. He hears me calling for him. He comes down. He gives the compressions. And I am sobbing by that time because I know that Cody is still trying and I'm crying, but they were not tears of anything, not fear. No, there was total peace in me. There was no anxiety in me. Were you aware of this at the time?

Yes, of course. And the Bible says it's called the peace that passes all understanding. You don't understand what that means until you're in a position where you know, I shouldn't be feeling joyful right now. I was sobbing tears of joy because the look on his face was this, and you can't see me over the airwaves, but I'm showing you, Craig. It was like, wonder, wonder. And even Cody stopped doing the compressions, and he says, Mom, look, he's smiling. And I said, I know, honey. He's with Jesus, and Jesus took his breath away. And that's exactly what happened.

And so we, instead of people talking about this tragedy of Frank dying, no. Frank had been to Israel with me by that time. He'd found out that having a religion all of his life was worthless. He found out by studying the Word of God that he had a relationship with the living God. And that is the difference between night and day. Are you a believer in the continuation of a form of consciousness, a life after death? Oh, of course. Yeah?

Yeah. Well, nobody exemplified that more than Jesus. They thought he was dead. Big surprise, three days later, resurrected. And you know what I love about that resurrection? It's one of my favorite stories in the Bible. If you don't know it, that basically Jesus, it's morning time, it's Sunday morning, and nobody could come. The women in Jesus's life were the most unafraid. They were the most loved because they were basically considered useless in that society back then.

You were there for sex, you were there to give babies to the powerful, but for the most part, women were considered less than chattel. You know, they weren't even, even Mosaic law considered a full human being. We have so much of that still in our world today. Jesus came along and said, no, you are equal. You are equal in God's kingdom. You are daughters of Abraham. You are daughters of the king.

You are going to be a co-heir with me to God's kingdom. This is why the women were there at the cross, only one man, the apostle John. Only one man. And at the grave on Sunday morning, when the sun came up, the women were there. And the first person that Jesus appeared to was Mary Magdalene, whom Jesus had cast seven demons out of. We would call that today mental illness. Yeah, the demon thing is interesting. I was going to talk to you a thing about demons. The demons are the, again, when I was talking to you about the Desert Fathers, origin of Alexandria, Evagrius of Pontus, these are early Christian theologians and mystics. And they talked about demons in the way that we today talk about

character defects or the right and it seems to me sometimes in in early church thinking perhaps later church thing i don't know much about church but it seems to me that a lot of um early almost psychotherapy comes from from that kind of thing it's like trying to get rid of the negative aspects of your own yeah consciousness your own yeah yeah unfortunately do that uh-huh who put them there in the first place well that's why i'm so glad you asked because i just got an answer to that i've been studying all my life, basically, with the world's greatest biblical scholars in Israel. And it's all in Genesis. It talks about at the dawn of creation, how God, there was an assembly. There was a council of the heavenly realms. That means it wasn't just

Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God there and the Father. There were other entities. Are you, and you believe, like a big kind of like Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings thing, do you think? You know, maybe. This is why I haven't read so many of these other things that people say, have you read, have you read, have you read? Right. I've been studying this my entire life, and I've barely scratched the surface. You know, if somebody says, go read this, somebody I would respect, and now I would because you have said it. I would read the book of Enoch. I would read some of the deeper Kabbalah stuff, which comes from a good place of early Judeo-Judaic mysticism.

But for now, it takes everything with the brain cells I still have left to study what it really— I've learned it the wrong way for so many years, Craig, that I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to unlearn what wasn't true. Like Jesus was not a carpenter. That's a bad translation of the word. And he didn't curse at a tree. And he cursed what the tree represented. Right, right, got it. But the Bible talks about Jehovah Elohim creator, talks about the lesser Elohim gods.

In the scripture it says, and the lesser gods. All right. Well, how's that work? He said, you shall have no other god before me. He meant the ultimate epitome of the godhead. So there, you think that. It all started back then. So there's a god.

Yes. But there's also like a bunch of other slightly lesser naughty gods? Well, they all started out as God's creation and some of them rebelled is the story. And Satan, he's the God of chaos. If God, my God, Jehovah Elohim is the God of shalom, people think shalom just means peace. It does not. Peace is one of the God of shalom. People think shalom just means peace. It does not. Peace is one of the parts of shalom. And it's almost like mahalo.

It's just become sort of, hey, shalom, shalom. You know? No. God is shalom. That's every attribute of God that makes him God. Faithfulness. Justice. Peace.

Joy. Your joy. Miracles. Glory. Righteousness. righteousness all those things that's shalom okay so so let me ask you this then because i'm gonna steer you back around to what we talked a little bit earlier which was the idea of a life after death because i think a lot of people people, particularly in the more naive, agnostic, atheistic, community, communities is the wrong word, but realm, realm, the idea that religion is all about life after death. It's all about, and so because it's an unprovable situation while you're alive, I would ask you, do you have a conception of it? Do you have a, are you certain of if it exists

and if it does exist, what it looks like? You know, you're so smart to say that it's just in the sweet by and by. That's what so many people live their life. If I can just get this through this life, it's going to be perfect one day. You know, what Jesus came to show us is yes, there will be a new heaven and a new earth and it will be perfect and every tear will be dried and there will be no pain and there will be the perfection that God had originally placed us in. He put us in a garden.

that God had originally placed us in. He put us in a garden. Whether you believe in that as a real place or as a metaphor, it was perfect. That's what he always, always meant for us, is the garden. Why? Did he need us to be born? Did he need to create us?

Why did he create us with free will? He could have created a bunch of robots and we would have done everything he wanted. I'm okay with robots. I like robots. No, would have done everything he wanted. I'm okay with robots. I like robots. No, because they want to be God. I'm sorry. Ultimately, these robots are good.

They're going to be so much smarter than us. And that's what happened in the original story. Suffice to say, nothing is new under the sun. And the things that we battle with today, like Mary Magdalene at the cross, I was going to finish that story. Jesus, she doesn't recognize him in the morning because it's early morning, it's dawn. She's come, she believes he's died. She saw him die. She was at the cross, watched him, watched them throw the spear and the blood and the water gush out. She saw his suffering. They never left the cross. And he was there from nine in the morning till three in the afternoon when they pronounced him dead. Which interestingly enough, Craig, at three o'clock, they call it

the ninth hour. That is when all of the animal sacrifices at the temple take place at three o'clock in the afternoon. So Jesus was the ultimate sacrificial lamb. While they were actually sacrificing a lamb in the inner court, this holy of holies on the temple. Jesus, naked. He was not, you've always seen him on the cross with a loincloth and all of that. That's a society thing. No, that was the ultimate for them.

They wanted to crucify you naked and as vulnerable as anybody could be. And that was anybody they crucified was naked. I think that also the historical aspects of crucifixion, you know, the idea of Spartacus and I think like 10, I don't know what the number was,

it was thousands of slaves were crucified on the Appian Way. That was their warning. You mess with Rome, this is going to be your end. I mean, that was, I think Pompey that did that, which was right about the same time as, or Crassus maybe, who did it, right about the same time as Jesus of Nazareth. It's the worst, they say, the worst death that's ever been contrived by a human being. What, a crucifixion? Mm-hmm.

Well. There's been some bad ones since. Yeah. So, listen, we talked a lot about religion, and clearly that is at the core of who you are. No, not religion, hon. Oh, sorry. Relationship. I do beg your pardon.

It's a hard habit. You're a hard habit to break. See, this is another habit you've got. You will sing directly at people, which I find— Because nobody will buy my records. No, I don't think that's true. I also find it quite alarming and very endearing at the same time. A little bit like you.

You are very much who you are. And I love that and I appreciate that about you. And I wonder, do you ever, when you get, because you say things about Jesus Christ, and a lot of people are very touchy about that subject. Oh yeah, yes. Do you ever... He's not popular in all circles. Right, and not even that.

I mean, people who are followers of Jesus Christ or people who are Christians, you will have doctrinal... Differences. Differences with them. And people get very heated about that. Do you ever feel like maybe you don't want to bring it up? It goes back to that boldness that I've had.

You banned from the brownies. I was going to tell you that when I went to the movie, I went to the Billy Graham movie, and it was over. And I remember literally hearing the voice of Jesus again in my heart. And he said, Kathy, I love you. And if you trust me, I will make something beautiful out of your life. That was it. It was the defining moment. I walked forward, literally gave my heart, even though my heart was already his. I just made sort of the public statement, yes, I am going to follow you. And that was the single greatest decision of my entire life.

And you feel that all adversity is coped, because I'm fascinated by people of faith. I am fascinated. You always have been. And of all doctrines, all faiths, I'm fascinated by it. I think it's an interesting thing. And I'm fascinated by yours because it is unshakable. Which I suppose that's what faith is.

Have you ever thought... Because faith is a gift. It's not because I have it innately. Right. But the scripture is very clear that faith, even faith, I have to get from Him. So when I'm running out of it, I just cry out. And Scripture's full of cry out to the Lord. He knows you, He created you.

He knows you need it. Cry out and ask and you will receive. Let me ask you then, because we're talking about joy. Yes. We are at some point. The idea of running out of faith. Yes, we all do. Describe for me a moment in your life

where you had to do that. Because you talked about Frank passing, and that was clearly a huge moment. Yes, almost 30 years of marriage. Right. But is there a time like, I'm trying to think of something more, well, something more mundane,

something more everyday, something more everyday. The times that my faith was most tried is the way I can answer it. And took me to my knees more often than a normal day would. When I was accused of sweatshop violations, when I was accused of abusing children in sweatshops. I remember that. That was the 90s, right? Yes. I couldn't, really, Lord? Really? Yes, it was one of the most, I couldn't, really, Lord? Really?

Frank and I had just opened up a $14 million home for AIDS and crack babies in New York during the pandemic. Every bit of the money from my Walmart clothing line went towards building that home where nobody would even hold an AIDS baby. Only Princess Diana was doing that. That's right, I remember. And so now we've built a home from scratch. It used to be the old Ronald McDonald House. Before that, it was a woman's convent. And we just bought it, tried with $2 million to renovate it for these babies. Couldn't because of the laws.

Anytime you kept dealing with diseases and babies and tried to, you know. We had to tear it down and start from scratch, and it cost $14 million. And that's where my Walmart money went. I was taking money that I earned honestly and giving it away. The people who came against me never visited Cassidy's Place or Cody House once. They just stood up, like they're doing in culture, the culture now, cancel culture, and accused me of something. So that they would, the guy that did it

said he was a human rights activist. No, he was an attorney who worked for Unite, the apparel. Right. Yes. And you know what he said to me later? I'm not going to say that. Privately, I'll tell you.

Okay. Nobody knows this, but it's interesting. But anyway, we got laws passed. I got legislation passed. I was suing the state of New York to unblind HIV testing because babies were being born who shouldn't be born with the AIDS virus or just with the full-blown AIDS. We found out with all of our studying that if a baby got a certain, no, if a mother got cocktail of certain drugs while she was pregnant, it would go from less than 40% down to less than an 8% chance the child would be born with the disease.

And I said, and CDC, the wonderful CDC, had blinded all HIV testing in the clinics so they could track it, not do anything about it, just track it. And we knew that there was hope. There was hope.

So there was treatment for women who had HIV and were pregnant. Yes. And it was being withheld from them? It was being withheld. And there were all kinds of different privacy issues that were involved, especially with gay men

who legitimately were worried about if their status was known, they might... And I respected that. But at that time, this was about dying babies to me. I said, you guys can do with your... You can march, you can fight your battles in court. But this is of great urgency. There's a way we can save lives, you guys.

Not just the men. I don't mean that. I meant the world. Jackie at a swanky party in the Hamptons at the home of the Revlon. Ronald Perlman, not widow, but divorced. She was a friend of mine. Claudia Cohen, beautiful woman. She said, Kathy, I know what you're doing.

I'm sitting here next to the governor. I said, oh, the poor governor. He's going to stuck with me for two. Now I'm suing the governor. Understand. I'm suing him. You were suing him and sitting next to him at a party? Yes, yes. Okay, that's good. Yes, yes, yes. He must have loved that. You know what? He's such

a good, decent man. I'd met him before. And when I say I was suing him, the organization that I worked with, the Association to Benefit Children, had sued the state of New York two other times and won both times too. So we're an adversary to be dealt with. But I told him everything. And back then I knew everything about this. I knew every statistic. I don't anymore. This was a long time ago. But I remember it, boys.

I remember sitting in that, and he sat and listened to me with such respect and so quietly asked a couple of different questions. I had the answers. And he said to me at the end of the evening three things. He said, I never knew this. Really? A politician said that? He said, yes, that's what I thought. I never knew this. Number two,

we're on the wrong side of this issue. A politician said that? Yeah. Yeah, but that's two. I never heard that. Third one, I'm going to do something about this. Now you're crazy. Now, Frank was sitting at a different table and I remember driving home with him

and I said, I think he heard me. He was, I think so, honey. I don't know if he's going to have the guts, the balls, whatever it takes to do the right thing, but I know he heard me. And within one month, Governor Pataki stood in the garden of the Cody House on 91st Street in New York City and announced the unblinding of HIV testing for the state of New York.

Long story short, for the first time in history, since the HIV AIDS started, it was the first time the death rate went down because the birth rate was, you know, because the babies were living. Because the babies were living. Because the babies were surviving. Yeah, right. They were surviving. And within one year after that, every state unblinded HIV testing. Not because I did the brave thing, but because Governor Pataki did. There are still people in this world who are there for the right reasons.

And when we fight a good fight, and we back it up with science, and we back it up with goodwill and prayer, miracles still happen every day. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just this relaxation, this not feeling stressed, this not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are

to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Guess what, Mango? What's that, Will? So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius. I know. That's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House. Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there. Why don't we just tell people about our show instead? Yeah, that's a better idea. So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most important questions. Things like, when did America start dialing 911?

Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto? Also, what happened to Esperanto? Plus, we cover questions like, how Chinese is your Chinese food? How do dollar stores stay in business? And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese? There absolutely is, and we are risking our lives by talking about it. But if you love mind-blowing facts facts, incredible history and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune into Part-Time Genius. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. Over my career, I've built and helped run multiple seven-figure businesses that leverage culture and built successful brands. Now I want to share what I've learned with you. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. On every episode, we get the inside scoop on how these leaders tap into culture to build something amazing. From exclusive interviews to business breakdowns, we'll explore the journey of turning passion for culture into business.

Whether you're just getting started or an established business owner, Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to or an established business owner, Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. This is Butternomics. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There's an interesting

word you used. You used the word science. And a lot of people, I'm not going to say my side of the fence, because that's not true. I don't have a side of the fence here. No, you don't. I'm kind of on the fence. You're fence-less.

I'm kind of wandering around. Actually, you're defense-less. Every now and again. Yeah, defense-less is best. But a lot of people think that science and faith are in conflict. They are things that are in conflict. You don't see it that way? Science lives exactly alongside faith.

When you know what the faith is based on and what it really says, it's perfect. The world as it was created was mathematically perfect. I'm sorry, but that's not random. That's a mind and a being that we can never, ever comprehend, but we can bow to it and we can in our own ways be humble before it and say, Lord, I know I'm not perfect. I know you created me for good things. You created me for something better than what I'm settling for. I need your help.

All God wants, you know, he says in Scripture somewhere, he says, I don't want your sacrifices. I want you to know me. And you think mathematics and science is the knowledge of God? Well, God says in the Old Testament, He said, look at the heavens. They have all knowledge and all wisdom is there. But religion came along and said, can't worship the stars. Can't worship the stars. You know, He didn't say worship them.

He said, study them. Study them. Seek. Seek. And it's just so exciting. That's what makes my faith more real every day. A couple of years ago, the Lord gave me something that I've tried to live as my mantra ever since. And it's like, Kathy, there's a scripture that says the joy of the Lord is your strength. Well, okay.

That's in, what is it, Angie? Nehemiah 8.10. I was going to say that, but I didn't want to get it wrong. Nehemiah 8.10. The joy of the Lord is your strength. Okay. I believe that. But later in life, maybe when I was going through the really, really rough times of Frank's

infidelity, came a year later after all the terrible stuff with the sweatshops. It was a very embarrassing time, I would imagine. Mostly for him. Listen, look, I know this. I remember seeing that at the time I was working on the Drew Carey show at the time.

I remember talking to Drew and we saw it in the newspaper, and he said to me, how would you like to be Frank Gifford this morning? I said, no. No. No. Men came up to him all the time.

It's better you than me, Frank. I mean, it was disgusting. Yeah. And he was a good man who did a stupid thing. It happens. Hands up. It happens. It happens.

Women were after my husband. He was a Kevin Costner of his day. You know, he was Brad Pitt of his day. And it was blatant right in front of me. And, you know, I lived with that, but I really believed that he was stronger than that. And he was also 66 years old when that happened. It wasn't like he was, you know, 22. And he knew better.

He knew better. But it was, you know what, we can go into that another time as well. But I remember the Lord saying to me, Kathy, this is what I want you to think all the time. My joy is non-negotiable. Oh, boy. Okay. I'll note, you know, when you and I were doing our movie together, then came you available on Netflix. On Netflix.

We had to go through a negotiation with you for the price that would be fair. You gave a little. It's a negotiation. That's our business. And time off. You wanted time to go back to the most beautiful home in Scotland and visit your family. Don't like the wife, but that's another story. And it's the process.

So you understand negotiation. But he said, your joy, don't let anybody mess with your joy, Kathy. And my joy comes from knowing every morning when I wake up that I am a child of the living God. So were you able to, is that how you were able to forgive Frank living God. Were you able to forgive? Is that how you were able to forgive Frank? The way I was able to forgive Frank, Howard Stern, you,

everybody else who's broken my heart. Oh, come on. You're in good company. I was going to say, these guys make a lot more money than me. Hey, wait till this podcast takes off. Anyway, yeah. What was your question? That was funny.

I said, was that how you were able to forgive Frank? The way I was able to forgive Frank was that the minute I knew it was true, because I believed him when he said it didn't happen. I had no reason not to because my husband stood by me through the sweatshop stuff. He stood by me through everything. People lie when they're panicked and they're afraid. Yes, that's exactly right. And I'm sure that's what happened.

And he realized he was caught. He had no idea that they had tape, you know, audio tape. He just knew that until he found it. And he said, no, it wasn't. People were always trying to set us up, always trying to destroy us. First of all, that goes back to the ones who were fallen from grace. You know, God's grace is forever, but they chose to walk away from God Almighty and try to be God.

That's never going to work out in anybody's life. You know, you've seen, and I have seen, a parade of people who started to believe that they were God Almighty, boy, and then where are they now? It happens in show business from time to time, I've noticed. Jesus said, what does it profit a person if they gain the whole world and lose their very soul? Jesus didn't want them to lose their souls. That's why he came.

And so, and I'm going to push you on this, because the forgiving of infidelity for a person like you, who I know what you stand for, and I know what you're like, and I know how much you value loyalty and truth and friendship, that that kind of betrayal would be horrendous. And so for you, that must have been a mountain to climb to get. No, it was instantaneous. Really? Yep. The minute I knew it was true, God showed me almost like a scroll. I don't do computer, but now that I've seen it, it was like a scroll of everything that God had already forgiven me for.

He said, Kathy, every time you ask for forgiveness, I forgave you. You cannot ask for forgiveness if you're not willing to give it. It was instantaneous. That's amazing. It's amazing. And then the exact opposite with Howard Stern. The story, he started saying the most horrendous things about me. I'd never met the man, never listened to his show, never watched it, never met him, nothing.

And he started just, I would, people would tell me, gosh, I can't believe what Howard Stern, I said, don't tell me. I don't want to know. But the minute I heard that he was doing that kind of thing, I started praying for him. I said, Lord, he must be so hurt inside. To hurt people he doesn't even know, to be so cruel to people that are, you know, don't live cruel lives. I, you know, I'm not perfect, but I wasn't out there hurting people, you know? I don't understand it, Lord, but you know why he does it. Hurt people hurt people. So I said, Lord, I'm just going to pray for him. I'm afraid that one day he'll come to know you, come to know how precious he is to you.

And you two became friends, right? Well, you're my friend. He became, 30 years later, he asked me to forgive him. Really? And he said, yes. And he said, will him. Really? And he said, yes. And he said, will you forgive me? And I said, Howard, of course. He's a remarkable human being. I don't know him still to this day, but the fact that— He's a fascinating man.

Oh, he is, and he's brilliant. And he's used his communication skills, I think, in a dark way. skills, I think, in a dark way, when God always intended for that brilliant mind and that brilliant sense of humor and all those things to be used for His glory, not His own. Not His. God's glory. And so, anyway, I would pray for him every day. I just did. And so I sent him a note when he got divorced from his wife.

And I hand-delivered it, because he lived across the street. So he lived in Regis' building. And I said, I'll just take it over. I didn't trust it getting to him otherwise, you know? And I left it. And the next day, he's talking on the air about, you know what I got a note from? And I didn't hear this either, but I was

told. And he goes, the nicest note. Just the nicest note from, of all people. And he says, and then they all, oh, she's just doing it so you'll like her, just, no, that's bullshit, she's the phone of you, and so, whatever, and so he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right, so that was years and years later now, I won't go through the whole story unless you want to hear, but I look up one day at the studio, I'm at the Today Show now, and I look up, and downstairs, there's a monitor, but downstairs, one floor a monitor. But downstairs,

one floor beneath me is where you've been there, Craig, where you walk in and you go to the studio. I'd never seen anyone with an entourage as big as this

because he was there to announce that he was going to be a judge on America's Got Talent. America's Got Talent, yeah. So he was making

that announcement and it was going to be on NBC and all that. So I was, I'm thinking, oh, there's Howard. Okay, I didn't think anything of it. Just said another prayer for him, probably. I don't know. I'm getting hair.

I just come in from Greenwich, so my makeup's not done. My hair's wet. I'm in my little schlep shows, like when we're on set. I've seen you like that. You've seen me like that, and I'm hot, aren't I? Absolutely. It's an amazing thing to see. And anyway, so the Lord says, Kathy, I want you to go downstairs right now and say hello to Howard and welcome him and wish him well with the show.

And I read, okay, Lord. Now, they had made huge effort at NBC to make sure that I didn't run into him and he didn't run into me because there was a lot at stake and my hair and makeup people have been told, don't let Kathy out of your sight. All of a sudden, I get up and I say to my hair and makeup people, I'll be right back.

Where are you going? Imagine all the floor management people. She's walking, she's walking, she's moving. Yeah, it was just like that. And so, sorry, I started singing again. And anyway, I just go downstairs. Nobody tries to stop me. I walk in, and I walk right up to Howard, who's 6'6".

I was 5'6 at the time. I've shrunk a little. And I'm flat-footed, and I look up, and I'm going, Howard? Howard? And he's looking around because he's a good foot taller than I am. All of a sudden, he looks down and sees this little elf in front of him. And he goes, wow. I remember him just sort of physically backing up and going,

rarely is a man speechless. He was speechless. And I put my hand out to him and said, hi, Kathy Lee, I think it's about time we meet, don't you think? And he put his hand out, and I said, I just want to wish you well with the show and with your life, and you just take care of yourself. That was it. I turned and walked away.

One thing he did say, yeah, crazy, right? The show, that's crazy. I said, it's crazy. And I just left and went upstairs. They go, what did you do? I said, I said, I wished him well with the show. Let's get my hair and makeup done. I'm a little behind.

And I left that day for L.A LA because Cody was graduating from USC film school the next day. So I was flying in to be a family for a while. I land and turn my phone on and there's a message. My friend Jill Martin had given him my number because she knew it was important. And it was him saying, can I say bad words on your podcast? Yeah, I think you can. Obviously, I erased it, but it was a million fuck words. It was like, I'm so fucked. This is Howard Stern.

I'm such a fucking idiot. I can't tell you exactly what he said, but I could tell the man was in great pain. And he said, I'm so sorry. I need you to forgive me. I need to talk to you. You were so nice to me today, and I've just been wrong. And I'm just, he was so contrite. He broke my heart, but there was no number.

I couldn't call him. It was just a caller ID unknown. So I said, well, Lord, it's in your hands. I thanked God. I said, how incredible. I said, well, Lord, it's in your hands. I thanked God. I said, how incredible.

30 years later, Lord, you're answering this. This man is seeking people he has hurt to say, I'm sorry, forgive me. Every person needs to do that in their life. All of us do to have peace. Shalom, God, shalom. So anyway, that night we're at dinner. We're at the Beverly Hills Hotel, and I see no caller ID, and I'm going, oh, it's him. He's trying again.

I got up. My husband was not happy, and neither was Cody. You're not going to talk to him, Mom. You're not. I said, oh, yes, I am. I'll be back. You guys continue with dinner. I went into a private room there, and I guess for about a half an hour, maybe not that much, maybe 20 minutes.

I don't know. Those things are surreal anyway. You don't really know. I'd check my phone if I knew how to. And he was so incredibly contrite, he said, I cannot believe how kind you were to me. And I said, well, of course I was. And he said, and so do you forgive me? He said, Kathy, I've fucked up my entire life, my whole life. And I'm getting counseling. I'm trying to be a better person. I'm trying to go to everybody that I've hurt.

And I know what I've been horrible to you. And I keep hearing wonderful things about you. And I just kept doing it. And I said, why, Howard? Why did you? He goes, because I hated you. And I said, but why? We had never even met. He said, you were everything I wasn't.

You're Jewish, but you believe in Jesus. How's that? You're a musician, but you sing old songs that your father likes. I just found a million things to make fun of you for. I thought you were a complete fun. The only way I could deal with somebody like you is to write you off as a phony. And he had a group of minions, of course, and yes, people who just fed into that. That's okay. Anyway, I said, do you forgive me? I said, Howard, of course I do. But I just need you to know that I forgave you 30 years ago. And I've been praying for you every day since. And he goes, what? I said, yeah, I knew this day would come. I didn't know when. You've certainly taken your time.

We just had a little laugh. And I said, would you like to come to dinner at my house? He goes, you'd have me for dinner? I said, of course. I'm not sure Frank will, but I will. You know, that kind of thing. And we never did do that, but I've run into him several times since,

and it's very warm between us, and there's no tension. There's none of that. It's forgiven. It's not forgotten. It was a huge thing. But how you forgive is immediately because you realize that that's what Jesus did. He said you're not supposed to forgive once.

You forgive seven times, 70 times, which is in the Bible, the perfection. Science, numbers, mathematics. If Jesus turned six pots of water into wine, there's a reason it's six pots. I've written a book called The Rock, the Road, and the Rabbi with one of the great biblical rabbinic scholars. And every single number, he knows the meaning of because the rabbis do. And when you find out what it means, it is so mind-boggling, and it just confirms and affirms your faith. This is not a random thing. This is sovereign God being sovereign God in spite of whatever else happens in whatever realm. And I believe there's many realms.

You know, who the hell do we think we are to think that there's just us in this world? You know, I don't believe that. I don't know what else is there, but I'm not going to put God in a box and say he only created us, you know? No, no, I don't believe that. And I think that's what eternity is all about once the next step comes. You asked about that earlier. It's we're going to be learning. We're going to be growing. We're not going to be sitting around on clouds playing the harp. I don't want to go there. You know, I get tired of the harp in about five minutes.

Yeah, there's a hotel lobby vibe about a harp, I've got to be honest. I love that you're talking about time, because we're out of it. Are you dying any time soon? I really hope not, But what I mean is You're giving me the hook I'm giving you the hook for now

Then I'm going to take you out and we're going to get something to eat Okay, my darling, that sounds great But nobody else can come to that Then you can tell me the stories that you weren't going to sell me I've told you lots of stuff that will never be said publicly Because I trust you That's right I trust you and I love you and you've always let me be me.

And I do adore your wife. And she's the one who said, I sent you the script. You gave it to her. Yeah. And she does have a beautiful name. Her name is Meg. Yeah. And she's a beautiful woman from New Hampshire originally.

But anyway. I know all of this. I know. I'm telling your listeners who may not know. And I, she, she did not, didn't she turn to you and say, you've got to do this movie? She said that. She said, you've got to do this movie. She also said, and I'm going to cuss a little here, but you're going to like this.

She said, that is Kathie Lee Gifford. She's a goddamn American treasure, and you're going to do this movie. She did? She did. You never told me that. Yeah. You told me. I'm not doubting it, but that's so nice.

But you told me she said, boy, does she have you down. Well, she did say that, too. We got to go. I love you. I love you, too. Don't believe what you've heard about this man. He's awesome. See you later.

Bye, baby. Bye. Episode Part 2, coming soon. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage.

I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad, and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry. We're going to be talking with some of my best friends. I didn't

know we were going to go there. People that I admire. When we say going to be talking with some of my best friends i didn't know we were going to go there people that i admire when we say listen to your body really tune into what's going on authors of books that have changed my life now you're talking about sympathy which is different than empathy right never forget it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one listen to a really good cry with raleigh devlukia on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts